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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
On today's episode, we start
out discussing hair sheep.
And then we transitioned to
biosecurity, which is a important
topic for anyone out there.
To really good listen.
So let's get started with the fast five.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: what's your name?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I'm Wyatt Catron.
I'm Samantha or Sam.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Which
do you prefer, Samantha or
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
It really doesn't matter to me.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, it's
kind of like when my wife yells
at me, it doesn't matter what she
calls me, I'm going to come running.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
You're still in trouble either way.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, either
way, if I can get by with her just using
a little bit of my name, it's better
than the whole name, but that's, yeah.
What's your farm's name?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So it's Paragon Ranch.
They're based out of Stillwater, Oklahoma.
So that's where we've got the ewe flock.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Very good,
and that answered our next question,
where you, where's the farm located?
Stillwater.
What an, or sorry, I almost jumped ahead.
What year did you start grazing animals?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
We started in 2019.
The Flock got to Stillwater
in early 2020, I believe.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Okay.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
we've been doing it up there for a bit,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
what species do you graze?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Predominantly low input hair sheep.
So we try to make hair sheep.
They're really parasite resistant
very maternal and they're still
make really good easy keeper use.
We do bring in some custom grazed cattle.
That's about all we got
as far as enterprises.
We also sell fiberglass post.
We've got some of that going on,
but those don't eat much grass.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, typically
not, but you'll lose a little bit
of area wherever they're stacked,
Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
The podcast dedicated to sharing
the stories of grass-based
livestock producers, exploring
regenerative practices that improve
the land animals and our lives.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each
week we'll dive into the journeys,
challenges, and successes of
producers like you, learning from
their experiences, and inspiring
each other to grow, and graze better.
Whether you're a seasoned
grazier or just getting started.
This is the place for you.
Speaker: Attention ranchers,
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You'll learn how to improve soil health,
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This course is designed to address your
unique challenges and build lasting
solutions for your ranching operation.
Through hands on activities and
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Don't miss this opportunity to learn from
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10 seconds about the farm.
I really don't have too much except.
You all will understand this.
As I sat down to record this.
I got a phone call and I had cattle out.
So went and got them in and got
to repair a little bit of fence.
At least the weather was nice.
We have some cooler
weather coming in, though.
For 10 seconds about the podcast.
Thank you.
For 2024.
We are over 301,000 downloads
for the lifetime of the podcast.
So we ended 2024 in 2024.
I didn't look up that number,
but I think we're about 160
downloads for, sorry, we're about
160,000 downloads for that year.
So very good.
Uh, wishing you a happy new year, excited
see your growth for this year and hope
you stick with us throughout the new year.
Also on the podcast today,
we're talking about bio-security
with Wyatt and Samantha.
If there's something I did
not ask, shoot me a message.
I think on the website, you
can even leave a voice message.
Leave one of those.
And I'll get in touch with Wyatt
and we'll record a followup episode.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: To get started
in our conversation today, tell us
what you're doing currently, and
then we'll hop into your backgrounds.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Okay.
So I'm a mobile food animal veterinarian.
I work at the Joplin regional
stockyards and Leach livestock auction.
When I'm not at those two
places do mobile work.
We focus predominantly on small remnants.
So I'm licensed in six States now.
So we go all over providing
services to flocks that are
big or small, all varieties.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Very good.
And Sam?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yes, so I'm a postdoc fellow at
the University of Arkansas, so I
basically graduated with my Ph.
D.
in May and stayed on within my
lab to continue my research.
And so my research is on the
respiratory microbiome and its
role in bovine respiratory disease.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: got
that Arkansas part in there.
Being a OSU alumni, you know.
But, okay.
No.
Did you both have interests in
cattle and grazing growing up?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
so I grew up on a, I guess
we'd call it a hobby farm.
Like, we had all kinds of stuff.
And I always
thought that.
I'd be in a rural mixed practice
somewhere, you know, working
on a little bit of everything.
And then the more I, in college, I
was, the more I was exposed to it.
I was like, you know, what I really want
to do is be helping livestock producers.
And that's what got me to where I'm
at today is helping them make, like
our mission for Catering Veterinary
Services is helping our producers be more
productive and profitable because I feel
like I, that's needed in every operation.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I grew up on a commercial cow calf
operation in Southern Oklahoma.
And I was always really interested
in science from a very young age.
Like I used to, apparently, I don't
remember this, but my parents say I
used to ask them to read me the Merck
vet manual, but I never wanted to
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: For some
reason, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
But then I went to Oklahoma state
and majored in animal science and got
involved in undergraduate research and
kind of fell in love with the laboratory
and the microbiology side of stuff.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
And does Wyatt get you out
helping with the sheep very much?
I was afraid of that, you
know.
It,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
few farm calls.
Yeah, sometimes farm calls.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: yeah, right.
Now, regenetative practices,
when did you all become aware
of more regenerative practices?
When you grow, when you were growing up,
were regenerative practices the norm?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: No,
it was when we, when I was starting
out, I wanted to get some sheep.
The real reason I got sheep
is I wanted to practice AI.
So artificial insemination.
So I, I got a small flock of wool sheep.
And thing, one thing after
another tried to expand those.
And the bank wouldn't give me any
money because they're like, oh,
we can't give you a loan on sheep.
Sheep don't make any money.
There's no, like with cattle, we know
the value of them and that's what they're
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I
started looking at different ways to
basically finance stuff and looking at
grazing because, you know, if you've
only got a small place, you need
to make the most use of that grass.
And so that's what got me
started down that path.
We, we actually ended up, I bought a small
flock of sheep with just the cash I had.
sold them and then realized, hey,
I can buy some stocker calves.
We can leverage those stocker
calves to buy more sheep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Cause the bank will loan money.
Yeah.
Cause they have a value to the bank.
And so the bank will loan
you money against them.
And so that's what kind of jumpstarted
us back into the sheep world.
The first set was wool ewes.
And in April, when I sheared
them for the first time, I said,
I'm never doing that again.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So, that's why we're into hair sheep.
Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: in high
school in FFA, I showed dairy cattle.
And I'd see all the people with the
sheep and the amount of times they
shared, sheared them and shaped them.
Like, I'm never having sheep.
And yeah, and then the pig
people, oh, just all the work.
I was like, dairy cattle is much easier.
Of course, then you're milking
twice a day, so there's,
that's a little debatable.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Depends on the work you
want to do, I guess.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right, exactly.
What, what you find fun
versus what you find tedious.
Yeah.
Sam, when were you introduced
to regenerative practices?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I would say by you, right?
Yeah, it's probably by me.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
So how did you educate yourself
on regenerative practices, Wyatt?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: YouTube
University was probably the biggest one.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
yeah.
Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
YouTube videos, listening to podcasts.
I got really into podcasts in undergrad.
And I see you've got a stack
of books behind you there.
This is one of the bookshelves that
we've got, yeah, the, the all kinds
of books, and that's kind of what,
how I got exposed to that was through
YouTube reading different books.
Like, we haven't been to Ranching for
Profit, but following some of those guys
that are very involved in that program.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Just on that tangent, have you read
the books by, I'm trying to think
David Pratt's books?
I couldn't think of his name.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So, let's see, I've got both
of them, but it's one of those
deals that my time to read is.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: You
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I'll, I'll
guess I'll put it on the record.
I'm a better book buyer
than I am a book reader.
Now, I have every intention of making
it, yeah, I love books, and just
getting to them takes some time.
I really enjoyed the Pratt's books.
They're, they're not quite the writing
style I enjoy and like, but there's
a lot of information in there, and I
really thought they were really good.
And then, just falling on
that ranching for profit.
I haven't been there yet.
One of these days I'll make it.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, well, and I was lucky
enough at the OSU library.
They had a, it was actually by Stan
Parsons, you know, the original
ranch profit guy, his blue book in there.
And so I read it out for several weeks and
that's what I was going through all that.
And it looked like is
printed on a typewriter, but
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
Well, that's very interesting.
I'm actually needing to
go down to the library.
There's a book on breeds I'm
wanting to look at and they have
a copy So I have to add that to my
list to go down there and look at.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
it was really neat.
I was, and that's what gave me a
lot of exposure to the ranching
profit stuff other than what's out
there on the Internet and stuff.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right.
So what were some of those YouTube
channels you found most beneficial?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Greg Judy's got a great one.
Greg Christensen.
We, we, we
run Greg and so
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
following him and what he's doing.
I mean, there's quite a few and just
different lectures that they'll have
recorded that somebody recorded a
conference and then put it online.
And there are several of
those like, different Bonsma
lectures and Johann Zietsman.
I really enjoyed those.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
Yeah, I, I think oftentimes I
need to put a together a list
of those videos out there.
And I know I don't know them all,
but yeah, when you start searching,
there's a lot out there, but
sometimes they're hard to find.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: When you
got the wool sheep, did you start
implementing more regenerative
practices into your practice then?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I did because we had to make
do with the pasture we had.
And so we started rotationally grazing
a little bit and getting that exposure.
And then when the stocker calves
came in, that's when I bought
some polywire and we started
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
Now when you started rotating those
sheep, the first ones, I'm going
to put you on the spot again Wyatt,
sorry about this, but when you started
grazing those first sheep, were you
doing it because you thought this is
going to be more regenerative, I'm
going to be able to grow more grass,
or was it for more parasite management?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
That's a great question.
So I think it was probably
for the grass side of things.
But it's definitely both of them.
We see both
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, it is,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
grass, you get more rest.
And then you have less parasites
if you're good about it.
You know, as a veterinarian, we see
some guys that come back too fast
and parasite issues, but yeah, for
the most part managing your grazing
takes care of all three of those.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I know a
lot of times when I talk to people,
if it's cattle, they're like, I need
more grass, I need lower inputs.
If it's sheep or goats, they're like,
I gotta keep these things healthy.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: And it
benefits both of those, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, absolutely.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
So you brought in stockers.
When you brought in those stockers, did
you go back and buy wool sheep or was that
your point, you went with the hair sheep?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: That
was the point I went with the hair sheep
because I said I It took me like
two days to shear 10 ewes, and
I said, I can't do this again.
Like, my back hurts.
If we grow, we're not, definitely
not, because the only sheep shear
that I knew of at the time was
actually west of Stillwater.
And these ewes were all
in eastern Oklahoma.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: oh yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: And
so I was like, not driving a half a
trailer load to Stillwater to hang
around all day and then bring them back.
And so I got into the hair sheep because
The market, it's easier to market too as
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah, yeah.
You're starting to see
lots of hair sheep around.
Just kind of like goats have blown
up over the last couple decades.
You're seeing goats a lot more.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Well,
last night at Leach at sale barn there,
they had, what, 2000 head in, and I'd
say 80% of those were sheep and goats.
And then of that 80%, most
of 'em were hair sheep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes, yeah.
I, I have not been to a Leach auction.
I've heard about it and I've
often thought I'd get over there.
We typically market ours
through Diamond, Missouri.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Okay.
Yep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: so, yeah, one
of these days I'll have to make over a
Leach, see what they're doing over there.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, it's a, it's a neat place.
I, I really enjoy Joe and Kyla, like
they've been really good to me and.
We do all the ultrasounding for their
special placement sale they have twice a
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So,
it's been a good opportunity for us.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: When you
went with hair sheep, what breeds
did you go with or what were you
looking for for those initial sheep?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So, I
knew that they were going to be grazing,
so parasite resistance was key for me.
Because of OSU, they had a hair sheep
flock already, and they had got into
the Hopping Brothers genetics early on,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
being exposed to those ewes, how they
were so parasite resistant, they were
moderate, easy fleshing, like, That's
when I knew I was like, okay, we need to
find some more of these hopping sheep.
And so, all of our ewes are hopping in
some way, whether they're direct from
Joe and Haas through Greg Christensen,
or we've gotten a few from Lee Ford,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: they're
all, all of those are hopping genetics
kind of separated by time and place.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
So, as you work on more parasitic
resistance and more maternal abilities,
are you staying within those lines
or are you bringing in some others?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So we've, we've historically
stayed within those lines and
tried to keep buck lambs out of the
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: or the
best buck lambs that we see at the time
when we go through and work everything.
And the way we've historically
done it is we've kept, you know,
10 to 20 percent buck lambs
intact that we thought were good.
And then, you know, there's always going
to be fallout as they go, as they age.
And so by the time breeding season
comes around, there's usually
some that you really like and some
that you thought you really liked.
And, and so we, we turned those out as
buck lambs and kept a yearling buck or two
around to, as the second cycle came in.
But this year we actually
did something different.
I've got a client that raises easy cares.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: yep,
that breed, that's a half Romanov,
a quarter white Dorper Katahdin.
So we bought some buck lambs from
him and actually kicked them out.
Our goal is to increase our land crop.
And so
impregnability, that's
the reason those came in.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Well, I'm, I'm
very interested in genetics on both sides.
I'd love to get a couple
Hopping Brothers rams in here.
I'd love to get an easy care ram
or two in here and try them out.
We're very Katahdin based
and we raise our own rams.
I think, but I think it's time we
introduced some new blood and that's
definitely the areas that I'm looking
at to introduce into my flock.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Yeah, I think both those
sheep had their place.
Like the, the Easy Cares, he's more of
a confinement operation, so it might be
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yes,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: to see
how those lambs do on pasture for us.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: will be.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
But I think we've got enough parasite
resistance already built into those
ewes that I don't think we'll see them
struggle too many, too much on them.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah, yeah.
That will be interesting to follow
that and see how that goes for you.
Now, one thing I always struggle with
is picking out rams that I want to keep.
Because here's, here's a issue I have that
you may not have because you're probably
going through an ultrasound in yours.
That gives you a leg up.
But making sure I'm looking at a twin
ram versus a single ram because those
single rams can look really nice.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Yeah, they can.
And that's what most of the time it's
observation in the pasture and That's
the, you know, over in Australia,
they want everything to look white.
Like all their sheep breeds are
white.
I prefer a little bit of color
because when you go out in
the pasture, you know, I can
pick out those lambs and be
like, okay, there's twin lambs.
This one's got weird
spots on his head or neck.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: and I
kind of write it down or I take a picture.
So when it comes time to work them, you
know, when they're 20 yards away, and
then when we get into the pen, I can,
you know, Find those ones that I really
like to make sure those gets pulled out.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
Are you tagging lambs when they're born?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: We
did the first year, first two years,
and then it just got to be too much
labor, like there's too much going on,
and we haven't found a better way yet.
You know, there's some nice technologies
coming out that hopefully make that
easier, but tagging at birth worked
great until we had too many sheep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: We, I've tried
it, I've had mixed results with it I
think I caused too many orphans one year
when I was tagging early, I think I was
tagging too early, but I'm slow, so I
need to catch them when they're young,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
in the hours, not days.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
And it, and tagging at birth does give
you a good opportunity to get that.
Like there's a few guys that
do a maternal, maternal score.
And so does that
you hang around, does she take off?
Like it kind of helps
on the maternal side.
But still it's just the
labor that goes into it.
Cause you got to
be out there like we were twice
a day before school, going
out and checking everything.
And then after classes that we're
coming back out and retagging it.
It works good on the front end and
on the back end, but when you're
having 10 to 20 lambs a day,
or something comes up, it's just,
that's the first thing that got dropped.
It was like, we'll come back later.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Well, and
I know from you all's Facebook,
you guys are not very busy.
So, I don't know how you
get everything accomplished.
So, good job on that.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
thankfully, right now in Stillwater, I've
got two guys that work part time for me.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: between
both of them, we, we managed to get a lot
of the stuff done that needs to be done.
And if it wasn't for them Yeah,
there'd be a lot that got dropped.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: But,
actually, I have that wrote down.
How are you, you able to manage
regeneratively long distance?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So
it's been a, that's been a learning curve
because like when I was, so we were,
when I was still in school and we were
grazing hard, I was trying to rotate
those ewes every one to three days.
We've kind of backed off
that just a little bit now.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: And
the way our, the way our operation works
is it's all leased ground, but it's
all separate and different pastures.
And so that was really
handy too, is we can chop
down the pastures that we're
and manage them that way.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: And so
the, our biggest place is a hundred acres.
We've got some smaller, like
a 10 acre piece that we go to.
And that one's very easy because
we drive the ewes down the road.
They hit the 10 acres for a day or
two, and then we go to a different
place further down the road.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah, are
all of those fences, or fenced with
permanent sheep type fencing, or are you
having to go in and do anything there?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
It's a mix of all the above.
So our main place, it's, it already
had nice two by four wire in it.
And so that's where we try to lamb
keep those ewes on it.
Just reduces predator pressure.
And then as those lambs are a little
bit older, we go into places that
they've got offset high tensile
wire off of a barbed wire fence.
And then we've got, we've got
another pasture that's across town.
And it's one of those things you just
make it work, but he's got a lot of,
there's a lot of town dogs out there, but
they've also got a lot of coyote pressure.
And so we don't take guard
dogs out to that pasture.
We just pen at night.
And so we
only,
we learned the first year that we're
only taking mature dry ewes out there.
Because we had, yeah, too many issues
where it was like, huh, I know she
had a pair of lambs this morning.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh Yeah,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, we learned just take, once the
lambs are weaned, they go out to that
pasture because they're dry and they
can go run on those different paddocks.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
Right, and that makes sense.
When you're offset high tensile,
are you just one one strand?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I think you can do it with one.
Greg Christensen up in
Kansas does it with one.
We put two, because I
liked a security and we, we
did have some Spanish goats.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, okay.
That's a whole different game.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Emphasis on did.
Yeah, emphasis on did.
And they
stayed in really well on that offset.
I think
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
there's an animal, there's, there's
a depth perception issue with
those guys.
And so I think they're going to walk into
it every time first, and get shocked,
rather than being able to judge and jump.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And I mean, the issues we had with
the Spanish goats is they were
getting out on our good fences.
They
found some rocks.
They found some rocks at work.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: They'll
help you find any holes you have.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yes, they were very good at that.
Which is why they, they now
live with my father in law with
the rest of his Spanish goats.
They
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
So was that Sam's idea
to get into the goats?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
It was really your idea?
Yeah.
But like baby goats, so.
Yeah,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I tell
people all the time that my favorite
animal on the farm are the goats.
They just have so much personality
they make me say words I didn't know I
wanted to say, but I, I love my goats.
I've got a dozen head out here.
I'd sold all down and then I
bought a few more because I,
I enjoy them most of the time.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: but it's
those other times where you're like, I
don't know if we should be running goats.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: There's, there's
other times I don't carry a rifle in
my pickup because those other times
happen and we would be having goat stew.
Yeah.
On the, the fence on your offset,
is that, are you coming in so far in
front of that fence and setting like a
temporary fence or temporary or fiberglass
pole or do you have those offsets
that set on your fence pushing out?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I
liked the fiberglass just because it's
going to stay away from that fence.
It's very rigid piece.
So we go a foot out and a foot up.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
okay.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: on
that second wire, it's two foot up,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
but I like the rigidity
of those fiberglass posts.
Whereas I think those pin locks or
something like that, where you've
got to make place, you know, they break.
If we do have deer that come through
there, cause I can tell it's still
hooks sometimes with that barb.
And so you've got to kind of.
bring it out and flip it off.
But I think with those plastic
pieces or even the metal ones,
we'd still have some issues
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
with being able to pull that fence
away from the existing fence.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: We went through
and put a lot of those offsets, just
the metal out there with the pin and
yeah, in places we didn't get them
close enough together, they're getting
tangled up in the barbed wire and that
does so good for the electric fence
running, so yeah, has some issues.
Yeah.
Sam, I want to include you
more in this conversation.
What have you told Wyatt he should
do with the sheep that he's not done?
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
The biggest thing I think that made
my life significantly better was
the to Te Pari that made my life
So much better when we work stuff.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, so
we've got a few nice pieces of equipment.
I try not to have a lot of overheads,
but there, there's definitely
times where some great equipment
will make stuff more efficient.
And so like for us, we've got a Te
Pari sheep handler because we can keep
better records on those ewes, track
weights makes working them a lot easier.
And so that's what, yeah,
that's what she's referring to.
Because I used to be the catcher.
And I still, I still am,
but it's much less now.
It'll be, yeah, and
it'll be different this year because I
actually, I had a client that made his
own marking cradle, you know, like you've
probably seen in Australia, New Zealand,
where they put him down a little chute,
and so we're gonna try that out this
year because he got it made and it was,
I think it was August when I picked it
up, so our lambs were too big to fit in
it, so I didn't even try to mess with it.
But I'm looking forward to
trying it and seeing if that
makes it a little easier for us.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I, I will admit getting
some sheep equipment made a
world of difference for us.
Before I'd go out and wrestle them in
our cattle pens, who I thought would
work great for sheep and they don't.
I would come in and, well,
usually that day I was just tired.
The next day I was sore
and knew I got beat up.
It's like, ooh.
Now, Wyatt, I think you went to
Arkansas, yeah, you did go to Arkansas,
but you went to Australia with Dr.
Gole down there.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: With Dr.
Tim Gole for flock's sake
is his business name.
And I still play on words.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: is, yeah.
It sounds like a very
Australian name of a company, to
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And so he was the sheep consultant.
That's all we did while I was down
there is mess with sheep every day.
It was a great opportunity to see
how a country that does it on such
a scale how they're, what they're
doing and how they're able to do it.
Cause.
For perspective, the United
States has 5 million ewes.
Australia has 50 million ewes.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, wow.
I hadn't heard those numbers.
It's not surprising to me, but it,
it is somewhat ten times as much.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
And the other best way to put
it is like, everybody in the U.
S.
has cattle.
Some people have sheep or goats.
Everybody in
Australia had sheep.
Some people had cattle.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, interesting.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And so, like, we were talking about,
like, I was jealous of all the
sheep products that were over there.
And they're like, yeah, but we
don't have any good cattle products.
And I was
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
was like, you make a fair point.
I'm sorry.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: What, what
did you learn being over there that
you brought back and thought I've
got to do or I've got to do better
or, or try to mimic that in some way?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
The biggest thing was scale.
Like, they do everything
at a much better scale.
Like, they're able to run
stuff more efficiently.
Genetics, record keeping, that type of
stuff, like, just need to be better at
record keeping, keeping the right records.
Tim, we put on a couple
workshops about lambing survival.
And Australia's extension programs
over there are very good at.
You know, they've got one
program called Towards 90.
It's about boosting lamb survival
or lifetime ewe management, which
is about taking care of those ewes
because it'll make you more productive.
And so I brought back a lot of stuff
that we're trying to implement now.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I guess from a vet side, yeah, I,
my pregnancy scanning crate that
we use now is modeled after Tim's
and I made a few revisions to
it, like took some ideas off the
Scottish crate, but that's what.
It allows us as a veterinarian
to really efficiently go through
some of those commercial flocks.
And so we can run 150 to 200 ewes an hour
and we're calling open singles and twins.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Whereas like, if you were to call your
local vet, they're probably going to
come out with an ultrasound that's
not really made for sheep and goats.
It'll work, but then you're also
going to have to grab every one of
them and walk up behind, bend over.
and put it in the abdomen.
Whereas I sit in a nice, comfortable
little lawn chair and we run
through, hook it up next to
an alley and we're good to go.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
And with that, and I know asking
this question, I can tell you the
answer immediately what you're going
to say, because I'm going to ask,
should all producers be doing that?
And I know where you're selling this as
a service, the answer is yes, but can
you tell us some reasons why we should?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
So like there's certain operations where
they don't have enough numbers where
maybe blood testing would be better.
We're calling your local, local
veterinarian if your numbers aren't
big enough, but that's usually
like in the single digit flocks.
But the main reasons why I tell clients
they need to be doing this is because
Number one, you can get rid of your
opens or do something else with them.
And the biggest part is
nutritional allocation.
So a twin needs a lot more nutrients.
A twin bearing you needs a lot more
nutrients than a single bearing you.
A single bearing you still needs a
lot more nutrients than an open ewe.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: because
an open ewe is just on maintenance.
She's freeloading.
She didn't punch her ticket.
So like you've got options, you know, and
if you know those things, You can put your
open ewes in a different pasture where
you can kind of forget about them, or you
can take them to the sale, sell those cull
ewes, and pay back some of your hay costs.
Because like, we've got one client
that they sold their open ewes, and of
course they made money on the open ewes,
but we figured out on the feed savings
ewes, That paid for me coming up there
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
and so so the cost of me scanning
was cheaper than feeding open use
that long And so that's a really
I don't I guess that's a really good
opportunity to add some value to an
operation and It doesn't necessarily hurt
them because most the time they're gonna
be saving money by having me come in,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
Well, one aspect, and we haven't done
this, we just, what I do whenever I'm
lambing, when they lamb, they get, or,
the, the ewes that haven't lambed yet
are pushed forward, the lambed ewes with
lambs are left behind, so then I'm working
with two flocks as I work through, and
when we're over it, usually whenever
the sale is, and we've said they've
had long enough to lamb, Everything
that's not lambed yet goes to sell.
But, if they're, if they're going because
they're open, they would never lambed.
I just fed them how many days?
150 days,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: you know
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: for
no benefit, or very little.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
yeah, it's like guys will say like you
need to be charging yourself for that
because Whether a bred ewe or a ewe
that had twins eating that grass, or
you bailed it and sold it to somebody.
Like, you should kind of be
charging those ewes that price.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: And so,
yeah, an open ewe, she's going to hang
around your operation for 100 to 150 days,
depending on when you go through them.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, and
then the other thing that, as I was
looking at your website and thinking
about it, the other thing is you
can call on those single bred use.
I think you had it on one of your
graphics, maybe, that that would be a
way to improve your lambing percent.
And improve your genetics for
future lines because we, we want
to sell those that have singles.
But saying doing that versus actually
doing that is a little bit tougher
than, than you think it would be.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Well, and I've got one
client, they actually do the
opposite on their ewe lambs.
They only want their ewe
lambs to have singles.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Okay,
I can see that on ewe lambs.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
and their logic was she has a
hard enough time counting to one.
We don't really want her to count to two.
And, but, what it did was
we, we sorted off the twins.
And those twins were, they
had a lot more value in them.
Because they were able to say, hey,
these things are carrying twins.
to somebody that was worth a lot of money.
And they didn't want the, they didn't
want to have to deal with that.
And so they actually increased the
value of those ewe lambs by knowing
that there was twins inside there.
And then one thing earlier, Cal talking
about making replacements, it's harder
when we've got smaller flocks, like
we don't even do it yet, but if you
have the opportunity to split those
singles and twins into different groups,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: then
you can pick your replacements out.
Cause you're like, well, if it's in that
pasture, It had to have been a twin,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
oh, yeah, that would help out.
Yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
You got to manage two pastures.
And then it's kind of like, well,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
there's some trade off there,
but I could also see the benefit.
It's really going to be how you value
the inputs versus the outputs there.
One thing on those.
Yearly new lambs, if they have twins.
I know Dr.
Dave Sparks, I'm not sure if you knew
him when he was live with Kiko Goats.
He always said for does, he expects them
to have three kids in the first two years.
It can be two their first year, one their
second, one their first, two their second.
He said it just takes too much out of them
to have twins as a first one to expect
them to do twins every year after that.
Let's go ahead and shift gears
and go into our overgrazing topic
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cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: We're going to
talk about biosecurity on the farm and
this is a question I reached out to you
all to see if you all would come on and
talk about biosecurity Because I've had
some listeners reach out to me to say hey,
we need more information on biosecurity
So maybe to to start the ball rolling.
What is it when we say Biosecurity.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
biosecurity is to prevent
more diseases from coming in.
I mean, that's the overarching goal.
And I'll say there's a
spectrum on biosecurity.
Like you can be as biosecure as some of
these poultry and swine facilities are now
to having zero biosecurity, but there's
a spectrum, you know, some guys, it
depends on what you're comfortable with.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I, I know for
us we had some broiler houses for a while
and biosecurity there was much greater.
With our beef cattle maybe I shouldn't
put this out to the world, but
biosecurity is not really something
we think about, to be honest.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
and there's and I'd say that's the that's
the mindset of a lot of producers that
raise ruminants, you know, they don't
it's something that's in the back of their
mind But it's not until you have an issue
and then have an issue.
You're too late.
So,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, I, I know
with my goats, the original, when I got
goats back in the early 2000s I had a few.
I wanted to expand my flock, and I found
some not too far away, and they just
didn't look very good to be honest.
Now, if I could go back and tell myself
what was wrong with them, I could now,
because I know exactly what was wrong
with them, but at the time, I was
coming to it with a very cattle mindset.
That I can solve their problems, I
can get them in better condition,
and they'll make some good animals.
What I did, was brought in some parasites
that were a little too resistant,
and caused me problems for years.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: you
know Yeah, and so parasites are a big one.
You talk about abortion diseases
foot rot I mean those are all things
that I see not every day, but we talk
about producers with all the time
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: So, what should
a producer have in their biosecurity
plan, or how they approach this?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So the best way is whether I'm going
to, because I'm a veterinarian,
I'm going to say work with your
local veterinarian or work with me,
develop a plan.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
of course, of course.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
there's a reason for that is you
need to work with somebody else
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
we all have blind spots.
And so working with somebody
that's outside of the operation is
going to allow you to find some of
those issues that you may not have
realized you may have in the future.
Does that
make sense?
And so when we talk about like one of our
CE conferences recently, we talked about
developing a biosecurity plan for feedlot.
Well, and so, you gotta think about
the silage that comes in, the feed
that gets delivered every day, the
fuel, the people that are coming in.
And so there's stuff that, me and
you, Cal, we, it slips the back of our
mind that that even comes in there.
At all.
And so to have an outside person kind
of evaluate stuff is very, very handy.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: when we, we
think about the average farmer out here,
and you may want to go, well, I was going
to say the average, the average in Craig
County where I am is a few hundred acres.
Some other counties have a little
bit smaller, but when you think
about the average farmer, what
should they be planning on?
Should they, and when I ask that,
should they be isolating new animals?
Should they be worried about visitors?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So I guess big things, they should
definitely be isolating new animals.
Like that's the biggest thing.
We recommend 30 days.
And so with that, we'd like those animals
to be in either a separate facility.
Like if you've got a plate, if you've
got a pasture that's way across the
farm or separated from the farm.
That's a great opportunity
to isolate those
guys for 30 days.
Or have like two degrees of separation.
So don't make them share a fence line,
have two fence lines between them.
That way they can't have
nose to nose contact.
Visitors, I would say it
depends on the visitors.
You know, if you're, If it's other
producers, depending on their operation,
you may want to be a little more cautious.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And I mean, there's ways around that.
Like, like I've got one client that
he was worried about getting foot rot.
And because he was, they had,
had a guy coming to buy sheep
from him that had foot rot.
He was like, what do I need?
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And so stuff like that, just ask
them to wash their trailer and you
can disinfect it when it gets there.
And something else we don't think
about is our working facilities.
You know, our
working facility is usually where we also
have people load out of, and so if we're
worried about somebody bringing stuff in,
a lot of times our working facilities are
centrally located, because it's easy for
us.
Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: As as I think
about ours, it's right here in the middle.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
yeah, but when you have somebody
that's going to be loading stuff out
and potentially bringing stuff in,
you kind of want to have a separate
facility, even if it's just a pin with
a ramp that you could have on the edge
of your place, so they can back in.
To the edge of the property,
you know, load out and go on
instead of driving across the whole farm
and loading up in the middle and knocking
shavings and, and infective material, you
know, right where everything's gonna walk.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: So one thing
is you think of, as you say that, and
I think about, so we're bringing, if
we bring new animals in, and to be
honest, we're not someone who brings
a lot of new animals in, but if we
bring new animals in, we send them.
We unload them, they're into
our tub, they're right up our
chute, our alley, and then, well,
then they're out with the herd.
So I should be isolating them, but you
also mentioned I should be disinfecting
and sanitizing my chute and alleyway?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
That would be my recommendation.
If you're bringing new stuff in and
because you're gonna have a, you're
gonna have a little herd immunity.
I mean, I would recommend it
before and after because your
flock may have something that
they haven't been exposed to.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: argue
that they're going to get exposed to it as
soon as you kick them out of quarantine.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: But
definitely after, because stuff like foot
rot can hang around in your facilities
for about two weeks, that bacteria can.
And so, if you unload them, process
them, and kick them back out to your
isolation pen, Well, something may happen
and you may have to work a ewe through
there or something in the next week.
Well, if you don't do it immediately,
you know, it's something we
forget about and then all of a
sudden everything's got foot root.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: So, when we say
sanitize and disinfect, when I say that,
I'm thinking you're washing stuff and
some kind of bleach mixture to sanitize.
Is there a better way?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So
there's, there's a lot of different
disinfectants out there on the market.
We use one that covers a broad spectrum of
bacteria and viruses because we're taking
that scanning crate from farm to farm.
We disinfect it every time.
But the key part to remember is
that is that most disinfectants
do not do well in organic matter.
So, manure, hair, dirt.
And so we need to, we need
to wash everything, get all
the debris off, and then
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And that's what a lot of people
forget, they'll just be like,
Oh, okay, well we just spray this
disinfectant on and it works.
But the manure will actually render
that disinfectant ineffective.
,
It's always important to wash
everything first and then disinfect.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: oh yeah.
Well, that, that washing would be our
first step that that we haven't done, so.
As I think about that, that's
quite an undertaking that I
don't look forward to, but.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: It
can be, but like we've got a little,
I've got a Harbor Freight spray pump.
I love
Harbor Freight.
Sam's laughing because He sent me
to Harbor Freight this morning.
Yeah,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes!
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: But
it's a little battery powered spray pump,
and so after we leave a farm, I pull into
a car wash, we wash everything out, and
then I take that pump and spray down the
whole scanning crate, spray the tires.
And then I go sit in the truck
for 10 minutes and let it sit.
And then I come back out
and rinse everything off and
we're on to the next place.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, interesting.
Yeah.
And Wyatt, I never send my
wife to Harbor, Harbor Freight
because I want to go in there.
She will not buy enough.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Well, I, I usually try to not take Sam.
Yeah, it was stressful.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Well, and if I go in there with Sam,
she's like, okay, what's on your list?
And I'm like, I don't know.
I make
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
I walk her to the alleys.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Well.
You know, to be honest, I cannot
stand going in a grocery store.
And my wife and I approach
a grocery store differently.
She's going to check each aisle to
see what's available, and I'm going to
work from a list and get out of there.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
You're like hungry.
Yeah, and you're
like, oh, I want, I need this and
this.
I sort of do a Walmart pickup a lot.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, I love
Walmart
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
on track a lot more.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, I love Walmart pickup.
Getting back biosecurity.
Is there anything we should worry
aboutfrom species to species?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, there's diseases that cross over.
But if you're not changing those, if
you're not changing the animals on your
operation, there's not a ton of things
that you really have to worry about.
Does that make sense?
As long as you're not
rotating all the time.
Rotating is in like, buying
and selling is what I mean
by that.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: right.
So for, for my flerd most time
they're operating separate,
but sometimes they're together.
Basically, they've already infected
each other if they're going to infect
each other because they've been together
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Now, I know
for a lot of dairies goats as well
as cattle, johnes is a big thing.
That's not, to us, has
not been traditionally a
problem with our beef cattle.
Is that something we
should be concerned about?
Should we want animals tested
for that before we bring them in?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So that's a great one because
there's no, there's no program.
Like we've got a brucellosis
program, a pseudo rabies program.
There's no governmental program that
tells us this is what we need to do.
Which would be helpful in some instances
because we would actually test more often.
And so certain producers we
see it a lot in seed stock
producers that check for Johnes
yeah.
because those are high value animals.
For most people they don't test
for it because it's one of those
diseases that it's going to affect
your older animals, which is going
to make them less productive.
And so usually they just cull.
I mean, that's the,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: and I
see a lot of at Joplin, I see a lot of
cows that I'm like, you could have Johnes
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
on the clinical signs.
But it's something that if we're
not testing for, we don't know.
And so the testing's not.
Nobody does it a ton besides
those select operations
because they want to keep that out.
But it is a concern.
And, you know, we talked about Australia.
Over there, Johnes is a big
disease and they actually
vaccinate for it in some areas.
So, they've got areas that are
clean and areas that are vaccinated,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh okay.
Kind of like brucellosis
used to be more so.
I know that's changed
a little bit, but Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
but yeah, same, same idea there.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
When we think about respiratory diseases,
is, is a 30 day isolation good enough
or quarantine good enough or should
we be doing something different there?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Sam
may have a different opinion than me
on this, because her, her level of
knowledge on the respiratory system.
In vet school, we covered about this deep.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
he's gone all the way, my
hands are way down here.
I can't
even go.
But I think 30 days is enough because.
When we take it to a feedlot
perspective, when they bring in
new cattle we look at BRD cases.
Most of those cases of BRD happen in
your first two to three weeks, so 14 21
we see most of those BRD cases happen.
There's some nuances to that, but most
of them we see in the first two weeks.
Mm
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: And let's
shift gears just a little bit, and And
talk about bringing breeding stock in.
Because most people, for most farms,
the main new animals we're gonna
bring in are new breeding males.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: hmm.
Yeah, so with the males I always try
to advocate to get a breeding soundness
exam done to make sure he's indeed
fertile before you turn him out.
Cause we have seen issues with
that, like we had one flock we
scammed 600 ewes, 5 percent bred.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, wow.
That would hurt.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
that's a bad day.
Yeah, it
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah, that is.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So
we had a lot of conversations, but we
were looking in the rear view mirror.
You know, we were already
past all the stages of intervention
we could have done beforehand.
And so, making sure those, those
new guys have a semen eval done.
Over in Australia they taught
me to look at the four Ts.
So we look at Teeth, testicles,
toes, and tackle, which is penis
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, okay.
Because I was struggling
with the fourth T there, but
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's, I don't, I guess that's their word
for it, but I was like, okay, tackle it.
Is, I, I like it.
Couldn't have
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Tackle, yeah.
Well, now when I go fishing,
I no longer have a tackle box.
I'm just changing that now.
It's gonna have a new name.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
But we wanna look at teeth like, you know,
unless you're buying ram lambs or, bulls
that are 18 months or something like that.
If you're buying something that's
got a little age to it, you want
to be sure those teeth are actually
still there because they can be a
broken mouth.
They can chip off teeth because
they have to be out grazing.
So broken mouth sheep, you
know, he's got some age to him.
He's gonna have a harder time
keeping in good condition when
he's breeding ewes if he's having
to work a little harder to eat.
Toes, we want to make sure
those toes are nice and short.
We don't have long toes.
I don't like trimmed feet.
So, we try to call for
that on our ewe flock
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I agree.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: but
that is an issue, is that, you know,
you want to make sure to at least look
at them, and make sure that they're not
long, overgrown, curled, something like
that, and then, and then on the testicles,
make sure, like as a veterinarian, we
palpate them, make sure they feel like
they should, because especially with
sheep, you can have ovine brucellosis, and
that actually causes a lot of infertility
in your buck rant, in your bucks,
Which means that ewes don't get bread.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
When you think about your, your
breeding it soundness exam, we're
really bad about not always doing that.
We do it sometimes, we
think we should do it.
I'll be honest, I just turned
out six rams, and I didn't
get it done on any of them.
But I tell myself I'm going to
be okay if I have a dud in there
because I turned out multiple rams.
Is that going to solve some of that issue?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So there's yes and no.
So it can,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: but the
other thing that comes into effect is you
can have the dominant bull, the dominant
ram effect, where if your dominant one
is infertile, he's still not gonna give
everybody else the chance to breed.
And so
some research out of Australia and
New Zealand, the New Zealand group
they did some, they did DNA testing
after the fact in multi sired groups
and showed that one buck bred like
60 80 percent of the lamb crop.
So you gotta think about, so if he
does that, but he's infertile, All
those ewes are taking more time
to either cycle and get bred, or
they never get bred in
the breeding season.
And so there's, yes, it can
work, and no, it can also work.
Like, there's good and bads to
throwing out multiple ones and not own.
Cause, cause in the
past, we've done it too.
You know, and just said, fingers
crossed, I hope they're fertile.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: And
I'll be honest, just a couple
years ago I had a terrible breed
back percentage with my cattle.
Now I feel it was my mineral program
at the time, but yeah, that really hurt
when I did the pregnancy test on them.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
And the, and that's another reason I
pitch for pregnancy scanning and, and
preg checking your cows, is because if
you don't do it, you know, you kept that
cow for nine months without knowing.
Right.
You know, a sheep, thank goodness
we just got to wait five months.
But yeah, if you keep them
that long, you're waiting for
something that never arrives.
And so if you know ahead of
time, you can make plans.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: And to chase
that just a little bit more, and I know
we're moving off of biosecurity just a
little bit with this question, but we
do blood tests, the BioPryn and, I say
that, I've also done some of the instant
tests, which are 15 to 30 minutes.
I did a handful of those just
to try them and see how it went.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
So
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: That
versus palpation versus ultrasound.
Is there going to be a big
difference in the results?
What's your thoughts on those?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
on the blood test with the
BioPryn I don't know anything.
I haven't done any digging on
the instant results as far as
how accurate there's going to be.
So the BioPryn that it's accurate.
It's like 90 95 percent accurate,
but there's caveats to it.
So it tells you when bred.
But if you have it, if you have something
that slipped that pregnancy, the protein
that they're looking for will still float
around in there for another 60 days or so.
So in all actuality, like if I had been
scanning, she'd have been, I'd called her
open, but the blood test called it bred.
And so there's nuances like that.
You also have to, if you're gonna
do blood tests, you gotta have the
ability to bring them back in if you're
going to do anything with that data.
And so You gotta bring them in,
sort them again.
Whereas pregnancy scanning, we
know right there, open singles,
twins, and they get a paint mark.
And so, whether we sort them off
the gates, off the front, or they do
something with them later, they've
at least got it known right there,
they don't have to read ear tags.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good, good points with that.
I know, or I don't know.
From what I recall reading about the
Biopryn uh, it's 99 percent accurate
if it calls them open, 95 percent
accurate if it calls them bred
because of like you, what you said.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, yeah, there's some,
there's some challenges to each.
And like, something
we've seen in a couple flocks is
we've actually diagnosed some tumors.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Sheep.
And so they would have had no idea.
So I asked him, I said, Hey, what's,
what's the history on this ewe?
And it was like, Well, she actually
hasn't marked any in like two months
and I'm like, well, it's because she's
got a tumor we need to talk about.
And so something like that, you
know, a BioPryn blood test would
have never picked it up and we didn't
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Now, you mentioned marking there.
Do you all use marking with y'all's rams?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
no, we don't.
Just because it's been so hard, but
it would be hard to keep up with those
guys and we, we run multi sire paddocks.
So that's what
we turn out several.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And so it'd be hard to keep track
of those crayons and catch them.
We just don't do it.
Labor gets in the way of that one.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Well, I'm,
I'm an efficient farmer, so I don't.
And you know, efficiency is
just laziness with good PR.
I'm really a lazy farmer, and
that sounds like more work to me.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
it can be.
Yeah.
So, it's really beneficial in
like our club lamb producers when
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
because they're putting them in jugs
for guys like us that are pasture lambing.
I just kind of chalk
that up as information.
We're not going to really need like data.
We're not going to use because.
Like, we'll still preg scan them, and
know whether it actually worked or not.
So, having a mark date isn't
really going to help us, or isn't
going to allow us to do much.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right, yeah.
Not gonna change your management much.
You know, to be honest, we got a scales
in our cattle chute, and we cannot run an
animal across that without weighing them.
And I tell Dad, sometimes we don't have to
weigh them, we just gotta weigh the other
day and we're not doing anything with it.
But, you know, we went so long
without one, we just weigh everything.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Well, I'm always curious when
they run across our sheep handler.
You know, sometimes I just
want to know when they come
across.
I think it's 140 pounds
when they come across.
Oh, it's actually 150.
Okay.
And you kind of, kind of adjust.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: yeah.
Yeah.
We, we do not have scales in our sheep
alley, so that would be really nice.
Of course, our sheep alley is not
really made to isolate one by one.
You know, it's, it's a alley that
I get them in the 16 foot where
I can do something with them.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
yeah, yeah.
And, and it works really well, and
it's good to have a, at least a
reference weight, at least an idea.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
talk about deworming, you know, it's
good, you don't want to underdose,
you don't want to overdose.
You want to be
pretty accurate.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I know we
got off the subject of biosecurity.
I just want to swing back to it and
ask, is there anything we didn't
discuss about biosecurity we should?
Should have brought up.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So one thing I had written down you
know, we kind of hit on some loading
facilities and the quarantine isolation
is even in your own operation.
It's good to keep in mind the order
that which you see your livestock.
So you want to start with like your
youngest youngest and healthiest
stock and then move backwards to your
older and then eventually sick stock.
So if you've got bottle lamps, you
want to go check on them first.
If, then you want to check
on, use, whatever, or then the
box or something like that.
And then lastly is your new
introductions or your sick pen.
Because we don't want to go backwards
from that and drag everything from the
SIsick pen back into everything else.
Because, You're probably like me,
you don't spray off your boots
and disinfect on your own place
from pen to pen like it's just
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: No, I don't.
Yeah,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
But if we keep in the back of our
mind, Hey, let's check on that sick
pin last, because that'll be the last
thing we do for the day before we go
inside, the odds of bringing something
back out of there are pretty slim.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: I've
I've heard that before and I think
that's a great reminder and to be
honest in practice I never do it.
So that's something I just I need to
start thinking more about And to be
honest, we don't often have a sick pen.
So it's not really A big thing I
think for most farms, but whenever
you do it's important to remember
that but going from young stock and
work up in age makes a lot of sense
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
and it's something like, like that.
You know, most operations, they
don't have a giant sick pen
like a feed yard would because
I'm dealing with that every day.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
And if we do, we've got other problems.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Well, Wyatt and Sam, it is time
for our famous four questions.
Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
And we're going to make
both of you answer them.
So get ready.
So Wyatt if you need to steal
some of Sam's answers, go ahead.
Our first question, what is your favorite
grazing grass related book or resource?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So mine is Thoughts and Advice
from an Old Cattleman by Gordon
Hazard
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So
that book you know, talked a lot about
how he ran his stock operation and
he was pretty low input and he talks
about, there's one line in there and
I'm going to probably going to butcher
it, but he talks about the difference
between being cheap and being tight.
He said, most people think I'm
cheap, but really I'm tight.
And his example was if he had two
hammers and he needed some cash,
he'd sell one hammer and go on.
But anytime he looked at adding
something, you know, he wanted to make
sure to return value, which is what we
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And he said, you know, if I can
spend a dollar and make two dollars,
I'm going to spend that dollar.
And that was his example of being
tight versus being cheap is he
held onto it unless he knew it
was going to make him an ROI.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Excellent advice.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
going to steal Wyatt's answer because
I don't read a lot of books like that.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: you're for
For the papers you're reading, I
don't know if a lot of our audience
is going to be reading them.
I'm probably not going to be reading them.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
so I can tell you about my favorite
paper, but it's not very applicable.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh yeah,
yeah, okay, we'll, we'll go with that.
Our second question, what is
your favorite tool for the farm?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So I had several that came to mind
whether it's the Te Pari, the sheep
handler, makes it more efficient.
We, we imported an auto feeder
that actually allows us to feed
lot of those lambs a little bit.
It reduces acidosis and it just keeps it
feed in front of them, which is what we
needed because I've got written down here.
If it's hard to do, you're not
going to do it for very long.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
Oh, exactly right.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
You're probably thinking of
some times where you did that.
And if you're, if you're having to
drag feed buckets out to a feeder pen
every day, it's probably not going
to want to feed lambs very long.
And those would be my two favorite tools
would be those things because it allows
us to be very efficient when we're,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: With the auto
feeder, what type of auto feeder is it?
Is it, does it have an auger?
Is it one of these self feeders
that's supposed to limit their intake?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
so it has an auger in it.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, okay.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
It's a, it's a Feedtech
auto feeder that we imported
from Australia and so it augers
down a line and ours is about
40 foot long so we can, we got
basically 80 foot of feeder space.
And so you can, you can set it up
to where a, where there's a sensor
and if that proximity sensor has
feed in front of it, it won't run.
But when they eat away the
feed, it'll kick on again.
So if we're doing an ad lib feed
loss system works well for that,
keeping fresh feed in there
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
because with self feeders, they can
kind of do some sorting and you end
up with just old feed in the bottom.
Or you can do it at a limit feed
where, you know, how much it's going
to auger out when it runs until it
gets full.
So you can have it kick on twice
a day or three times a day.
And
so it, it's pretty flexible.
And I like that part.
It's very flexible and modular too.
If we want to add onto it, we
just extend it a little bit.
On we go.
But with that 40 foot unit, we could
feed a lot 960 lambs or something is
what we figured up on the headspace
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yes.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
and we're not there
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: yeah.
Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
But you know, we don't have
to keep adding things to it
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
the that's what I felt was key in
certain times is sometimes in order
to get to that next step You just
got to get the equipment to do it
and then you'll figure out how to get
there rather than getting there and be
like You I'm so tired of working 23 hours
a day feeding lambs.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Well, you know,
we talk about the work life balance,
not that it's a balance, but you've
got to have of a balance there, even
with the ebb and flow of everything.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Sam's looking at me cause
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I,
well, yeah, we had a yearling special
on Monday and then special cow sale
and regular cow sale on Wednesday.
We sold a thousand.
The cow sale on Thursday had
2000 head and back and forth.
I put in 80 hours this week.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: oh yeah,
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
No, by Thursday.
By Thursday night.
Yeah.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: you're
younger, you can handle it, I cannot.
Sam, what's your favorite tool, and
I know you're not going to say Wyatt,
because he's already talked about
the lawn chair he uses on the farm.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I
really like the sheep handler because
before anytime we worked everything
which I still do catch the little ones
because they're too small to go through.
But I, it was me catching everything.
Because most of the time it was
Occasionally we would have a
few extra people when we worked,
but it would, like, there's been
times that it was just us two.
And that can get exhausting.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah, it
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I,
I I should, I should say that it's not
my idea to have Sam catch everything.
I don't, I, I don't like to
do anything else but catch.
She
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, okay
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: needles
that, when we're vaccinating and stuff
like that, she's like, I'll just catch.
And usually about halfway through,
I'm like, you really, I can trade you.
And she's like, nope, I'm not, not
injecting them or not doing anything.
That's your job.
Okay.
I didn't go to that school or anything.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
okay, okay she chose that
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
I'm like, okay.
As long as you know that
you've made that decision.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Right,
yeah, yeah now everybody driving by
is gonna think I'm a lazy person out
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: making
my wife do all this Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: that I
mean, but yeah, the sheep handler, when
it, it catches them pneumatically and
it can run them automatically, actually
with the, with the sensors has got on it.
It makes it really easy to
work stuff now.
We also use it so my parents have, I
don't know, a lot of Spanish goats.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
it there also.
And it makes it a lot easier.
Yeah, cause deworming the goats.
Cause they're even worse
than the sheep, I think.
Cause they know how to use their horns.
Yeah,
and a goat will use its body
weight and throw you around.
And so by the end of the day,
your wrists hurt and everything.
And the first time we took it
down there, I said, Patrick.
I don't know if it's gonna work or not
on these goats like it's built for sheep.
We're gonna try it and
you guys castrate kids.
I'll work the doe the doe goats
off and we'll see what happens.
Well, so usually we castrate
kids and then work those I had
finished the doughs me and another
guy and we didn't break a sweat
and they were still over there
castrating kids and afterwards
Patrick goes Hey, you're gonna bring
it back every time we got to work,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
And I was like, yeah, I will.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: So I
knew then that from somebody who had,
did not want it, did not want it down
there, that it must work real well.
He was
all for it.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
He wanted to run it next time.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
We did, we did let him this year and they
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Oh, okay.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: awesome.
I'm like, I know.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
I've, I've seen YouTube videos.
I think a sheep farmer in
UK has one that he uses.
I can't think of the name, but
I was like, oh, that's amazing.
Or it appears amazing to me.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
it's, it's really awesome and I need
to be better about taking videos and
recording everything but the problem I
get is I get so busy working everything
that I'm like, oh crap, I really should
have stopped and reported all this.
So,
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah.
Our third question, what would you
tell someone just getting started?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So my advice is, and I think you've
had this same, I think people
have said it's a common theme
is you got to start somewhere.
If that's what you want to do,
you got to get started somewhere,
whether it's 10 acres or 100 acres.
But also, when you're doing this,
if you know that you want to be
at 100 head or 500 head build
your facilities with that in mind.
Because,
you know, we've got 20 head, the
facilities for that place look a lot
different than facilities for 200 head.
And so if you know that you want to get
there in 5 years, try, if you can afford
it, build those facilities to be there.
Run that amount of livestock so you're
not having to change them every so often
like you know every year or two
When you've got way more stock
because that's the biggest thing that
we've tried to do is we did that We kind
of built for what we had and then we
had some more cash so we built a little
bit more and it's like well piece of
advice if you got the opportunity to
try to build for what you're going to
instead of build for what you've got
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Yeah,
I think that's excellent advice.
Yeah.
And Sam, what would you tell
someone just getting started?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520: I
think both in terms of like a grazing
operation or like a career, whether it's
veterinary medicine or grad school or
whatever, is never be afraid or ashamed
to admit when you don't know something
because no one knows everything.
ever.
Even the
experts still don't know everything.
And so being able to admit when
you don't know something and ask
questions is how you learn new things.
And who knows, like maybe no one knows
the answer to it and you can kind
of find out something new to like
through the research side of things.
But yeah, I think it's always admit
when you don't know something and
never be afraid to ask questions,
even if they seem like maybe like dumb
to you, there's no stupid question.
So that would maybe be my advice.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520:
Excellent advice there.
And if I didn't admit to what I
didn't know, I wouldn't have much to
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Yeah, exactly.
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: lastly, where
can others find out more about you?
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
So you can find Paragon
Ranch on Facebook, Instagram.
We've got a website Catron
Veterinary Services on Facebook,
Instagram, and a website.
So, or you can just go
friend me on Facebook.
I mean that Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say if
you go to my Facebook page.
It's I've got everything linked, so
cal_2_12-14-2024_140520: Very good.
Wyatt and Sam, we really appreciate you
all coming on today and sharing with us.
wyatt-catron_1_12-14-2024_140520:
Thank you for having us Cal
it's been a great opportunity
Cal: Thank you for listening to this
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