How Long Should Your Novel Be, Really? — Ep. 8 Third Person POV: A Writing Group

This week, we critique chapters, argue about half measures, talk ourselves into and out of bad metaphors, and somehow end up discussing print costs, fantasy word counts, and the books that made us writers in the first place. If you’ve ever wanted to sit in on a real writers group meeting, this is the chaos for you.

Find the co-hosts on:

→JC Bybee at https://jcbybee.com/

→Grey Alder at https://greyalderbooks.com/

→Tyler Hess on his blog: https://hesstylerblog.com/

What is Third Person POV: A Writing Group?

Dear Writer, giving and receiving feedback can be hard. Haven't you ever wished you could watch someone else's writing group to see how they do it?

This podcast is focused on just such a writing group. Join authors JC Bybee, Grey Alder, and Tyler Hess as they razz and encourage each other, talk about every writing topic under the sun, and exemplify the subtle art of helping other writers write better.

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;25
Unknown
For example, I looked up the word counts of all the Harry Potter's and Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is like 70,000 words one. So I was like, okay, for my first novel, I should shoot about 60 to 70,000 words because that's that's sort of a good starting length for all of my hearing. And it books are just between, 50 and 80.

00;00;27;27 - 00;00;57;12
Unknown
That's a good rate. Yeah, very the sentence and really just isn't a good example. I picked up a lunch and it was 200, 200,000 plus.

00;00;57;15 - 00;01;21;13
Unknown
Hello and welcome to the third person POV, a writers group podcast. I'm Jake. This is Tyler and Gray Alder. Hey, if I should have an order next time. Yeah, we would get it for. Just kind of have an awkward pause. Yeah. Welcome welcome, welcome. Glad to be heard. Yep. I have a sister in law who's always like, oh, it's good to be seen.

00;01;21;15 - 00;01;36;03
Unknown
Okay, okay. We're glad you're here. Welcome to our corner of the, of the internet, whether that's YouTube or wherever else you're seeing, hearing or experiencing this.

00;01;36;06 - 00;02;03;28
Unknown
So we just, as a quick introduction, critique each other. Yeah. We're mean to each other. We're nice to each other. We're helpful, hopefully to each other. So this is just the inner workings of a writer's group. Three writers trying to make each other better. Tonight we were just technical problems. Yeah. Losing you. Are you, by the way?

00;02;03;28 - 00;02;09;09
Unknown
I'm just. Yeah. Be a jerk tonight. Yeah. It's.

00;02;09;11 - 00;02;39;05
Unknown
We were having some technical difficulties, but we'll get through them. I believe we have decided on the order for tonight. Is Tyler will be a first up on the critique block, followed by, me, Jesse, and then gray. Well, we'll end off with his piece, so we'll get right into it. Cue future Tyler giving context for what he's we reviewed tonight or went over this week.

00;02;39;08 - 00;03;07;08
Unknown
Future Tyler here on this nice windy day. Context for this week. AJ has blown the whistle on Ward's involvement with the Riley's and their plan to open up the gate. So the old guard is kind of coming together to talk to us about that. So, he goes to the shop because he's got, responsibilities there. He's up on there now to kind of pare back for dealing him up from all of his different injuries this past week or so.

00;03;07;10 - 00;03;28;10
Unknown
And they kind of ambush him in a little bit. So there's Nan there, there's Principal stones, there's a new guy, Isaac, who is a ranger, who doesn't spend a lot of time in town. But he is very important for the safety of the town. And they're trying to convince him to kind of turn double agent and spy on the Bradleys for them.

00;03;28;12 - 00;03;54;28
Unknown
Ward isn't really having it. He is more interested in being proactive with the Bradleys that reactive with the good guys. Good guys? Yeah, they're good guys. There's the good guys. Yeah. Also listening back to this episode, Jake, shoot me in to to talk. And this is where that that's where this video will go. But then I keep myself in later I, I future Tyler got Q twice.

00;03;54;28 - 00;04;22;28
Unknown
I don't know why it was just me being dumb. So don't get too confused by that. Love you guys set up rooster, but. Very good. He wants to go first, I can jump in, Jake, since he gave us that beautiful intro. All right, shoot. All right. Cool. So, I feel like full disclosure in all of our parts, we we just read this stuff today.

00;04;23;01 - 00;04;46;25
Unknown
Usually I at least get to to one of yours a little earlier in the week, and then after, remind myself. But, yeah. So everything should be nice and fresh. That's, Gosh. So, overall, I, I enjoyed the chapter. It feels once again like a quieter chapter. Gotta have these peaks and valleys going on, which I think is appropriate, cuz I think you feature me future Tyler.

00;04;46;27 - 00;05;12;03
Unknown
Context. Sorry. Yes. Yeah. It's, let me hone in. I feel like we've, we're all familiar enough with each other's work at this point and what we have been working on to where I don't want to keep nitpicking the same issues or boosting the same things like, oh, that's so awesome. But I'm tired of praising Tyler, so it's fair.

00;05;12;06 - 00;05;38;15
Unknown
It gets old. All right, so, this scene, is sort of Warren's introduction to what I would characterize as the inner circle of the the secret keepers of, of Brecken, excluding, of course, Bradley. Sheriff Bradley. So we have more of Nan. We have, Isaac, this new character that's been introduced. He has been mentioned in the past, if I recall correctly.

00;05;38;18 - 00;06;01;06
Unknown
And then, of course, we have, principal and it's getting a little bit more of a prominent direct role with Warren. So I showed this chapter for what it was. Let's see, I like your description of Isaac, since this is really our first time being introduced to him, the fact that it looks like he's just been walking for a long time.

00;06;01;11 - 00;06;21;18
Unknown
I don't quite picture Forrest Gump after walking across the country five times, but, just, like, recorded. He's. You described him as very weather worn and rough and, like, he's been walking for a while. He's got sturdy boots that are scuffed in a scored brown jacket. So that's some solid character introduction. I can really picture the guy.

00;06;21;21 - 00;06;41;23
Unknown
Let's see, he probably. You also have physical description of all of my characters. To be fair, I can picture you get better than Warren. Yeah. And then you do kind of sprinkle in some more details. Just to remind me what Stan's looks like. Gosh, who's that guy? I told you that a picture in my head from, from Parks and Rec.

00;06;41;25 - 00;07;03;17
Unknown
Yeah. Nick Offerman and Ron Swanson. Nick Offerman, that's who I picture. All right, that's the official casting. Yeah. All right. And then, they just kind of get into this discussion in which Warren is they basically question him, like, okay, you're going to you're going to go with this plan. You're going to side with this guy to potentially open the gate.

00;07;03;20 - 00;07;23;17
Unknown
Have you thought this through? And he really just, gives them a piece of his mind, like, okay, do you have any better ideas? And, like, okay, no. Well, then we're going to go with my plan. And I see in this chapter, I think it'd be unfair to characterize this as the first time that Warren's really stepping into that protagonist role where he's choosing to move the plot forward.

00;07;23;19 - 00;07;44;04
Unknown
But I feel like he less and less is he just drawn into the events of the plot or other characters decisions, and he's really just he's digging his feet in and he's making his own decision. He says explicitly in this chapter that he didn't ask to be drawn into all this. But now that he's here, I think he says something along the lines that he's not going to do anything by half measures.

00;07;44;06 - 00;08;12;16
Unknown
Yeah. So I thought that was pretty cool. I am a little just continually baffled by Warren's sense of compassion for the hounds at this point. That seems to be a strong motivation for him wanting to, open the gate and find a way to rescue these guys. I think we talked about previously, Warren's kind of core character motivation for his aunts and his sense of duty to his family, and I certainly understand that.

00;08;12;19 - 00;08;38;08
Unknown
But the the willingness to, to risk so much to rescue the hounds is, I don't know, maybe I'm just not recalling, the groundwork that you laid for that, but it feels a little bit off. All in all, nice, solid chapter, find ways to give us. I had, I won't say new exposition, but this is where all the characters are coming to a head and deciding their stratagems for what looks like the end game of, of the book.

00;08;38;08 - 00;09;02;12
Unknown
Here. Yeah. Appreciate that. I'm just writing a note that you sparked something that that. Yeah. You're right. I need a little more groundwork for that. I have an idea for how to do that. Thank you. I appreciate that. What about you, Jesse? So, with both of your guys's pieces this week, I decided I was going to read it, and I appreciate that.

00;09;02;12 - 00;09;31;27
Unknown
Thank you. Well, that was I read it straight through, and, no, I was just going to ignore it. No, and unless something really big jumped out at me, I wasn't going to make any comments until I went through the second time. And for both of you. So I'll also for you, Greg, as well. I went through and I think each of you I encountered one thing where I was like, I made a comment on the first read through.

00;09;32;00 - 00;09;50;27
Unknown
It was the second where I picked up and and and made my goods and my bads. Having just got back from the Eagle Mountain Writers Conference and participating in the writers boot camp, one of the things we try to emphasize, because a lot of times we're dealing with younger writers, not just new writers, but younger writers.

00;09;51;00 - 00;10;19;03
Unknown
And underscoring the point that critiques are useful because you hear the good and the bad. And that's something we have always, we always try to do in ours. But just to emphasize that point, this chapter, again, was good. I'll admit, I didn't remember Isaac showing up previously or being mentioned previously, rather. So I made a I made a comment,

00;10;19;05 - 00;10;48;13
Unknown
Character consistency is really important in a book. And your characters are consistent. Like, yeah. Warren's motivations are slowly shifting, but that's because he's getting more information and he's able to make more. He's able to act on his his information better. So it it nothing in this felt out of place for any of the characters, though, as we know him thus far.

00;10;48;15 - 00;11;08;23
Unknown
So, let's see anything that really. Nothing really stood out as, like, glaringly bad or like, awkward or anything. There were a few. And now there was one.

00;11;08;26 - 00;11;47;00
Unknown
Maybe I'm misremembering. Which one? Oh. There was one paragraph. I think it's, that. Yeah, very beginning of page two. Something about the order. After Warren asks what's going on, just the sentence order in that paragraph was just for some reason the flow felt off to me. Could just be me. Let's see, one of the things I like is you have a teenager moment for Warren, and that teenager moment is, he talks about.

00;11;47;02 - 00;12;10;27
Unknown
Half measures not being good enough. And then they ask him, so what are you going to do basically? And he turns around with, I'll figure something out. Half measures aren't good enough, but I'm using a half measure to justify my actions. The teenage moment, that's what that's. I mean, that's something a teenager would say and do. And I disagree with that.

00;12;10;27 - 00;12;25;10
Unknown
JK, really? Hey, that seems like a manhood moment for me. Like, like, not quite coming of age, like milestone, but like a, I'm a man. So I'm going to figure this out and I'm going to leap off the building, and I'm going to figure out how I'm going to land on the way down like that.

00;12;25;13 - 00;12;54;08
Unknown
I get that, I get that that's pretty ballsy. That's probably more for what I'm going for. Somebody that works either way. Yes. Yeah. Either way, you read it. Yeah. I like that. Oh, I see, where was it? So I like how Stan's says, straight up says Bradley's not going to let you choose whether or not he uses you.

00;12;54;11 - 00;13;20;15
Unknown
You're not going to have a choice. He's always been like this. So it's. I mean, it should be a real warning coming from Stan's. Somebody that grew up with him. And then I like the potential foreshadowing of and remember, There's Always Your mom, which, again, I don't know if you're there's two way there's two I mean, obvious ways you could go in this scenario.

00;13;20;17 - 00;13;39;04
Unknown
Whether you go with either of them doesn't matter. You are setting up two different paths and you could take a third. But I like this. I like the setups you're making, the foreshadowing you're making in this conversation that that Bradley's going to try to get his way. And right now there are two people he can use to do it.

00;13;39;06 - 00;13;52;10
Unknown
So, I would say that I would there would overall, I just think there should be a little bit more,

00;13;52;13 - 00;14;12;07
Unknown
A little bit more emotion in the overall scene. You have a good a few good spots of it, but there are just some sections where it felt like talking heads a little bit. That's I mean, that's my made. The biggest critique I can come up with is that the rest of it was great. The rest of it flowed really well.

00;14;12;10 - 00;14;38;03
Unknown
And like I said, I like what it does for the story. It gives us some things to think about. So good work. Any questions for us? Not really. I still feel like, you know, I still need to go back and make sure that Warren's motivations are really clear. I think that's probably my biggest problem with the scene right now.

00;14;38;06 - 00;14;59;22
Unknown
Did it feel like their plan of having them spy for them, which, I mean, obviously rejects that, but did that feel like something they would actually try to do, or did that feel weird to you guys? Actually, to me, it felt like something they would try to do. They, they obviously they're not going to be able to figure out what Bradley's doing on their own.

00;14;59;22 - 00;15;21;21
Unknown
He's not going to talk to them. And so if they have an in, they're going to try to take it that to me. Great. Yeah. I actually left a comment that said, ooh, a double agents. I put them on the Jedi Council and not make them a master is unheard of. Ask me to spy on the chance.

00;15;21;23 - 00;15;42;28
Unknown
It's outrageous. So, it's funny that it seems like it was them not quite grasping at straws, but, like. Well, this is, one open stratagem, and he just wants to decide. I like that whole exchange. Yeah. Okay. Good. Do you do. Yeah. I mean, I kind of gave you guys, something. Sure. I probably should just giving you the next scene as well, because the next scene or two.

00;15;42;28 - 00;16;22;26
Unknown
But but dude, I read through this. I'm glad that you didn't. For today. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You guys buds. Yep. All right. And I believe that puts me on the chopping block. Dun dun dun. All right, so cue future me giving context. What I submitted for this week. Everybody. Future JSA again back this week section continues trying to figure out who tampered with Darren and Jessica's memories.

00;16;22;29 - 00;16;54;05
Unknown
Reporting to, third Street precinct for, so, memory evaluation, but, Captain Torment, she is a main character in or secondary character in, the Hero Unit main series. She. And just kind of figuring out how they're going to proceed. Even Jessica discussed the case quite a bit. And come to a disagreement on how they want to proceed and how they want to handle it.

00;16;54;07 - 00;17;22;07
Unknown
So more character development, more plot progression, a little less slow, hopefully, than the last few sections. And we'll see what the guys think. Very good. I guess I should go first. Yeah. Sounds good to me. First. I liked how you started off. I really like, this Captain Torment. She kind of stuck out to me as having her own voice very, very quickly.

00;17;22;13 - 00;17;41;07
Unknown
Which, I mean, we only see it very briefly, but for her to have her own voice is really good. Kind of makes me wonder if you're. The characters have had their own voices, and that's why this. She's sticking out to me as well, unfortunately. Yeah, I have it. I have a like, as closely as, other things like that, but that might be the case.

00;17;41;09 - 00;18;10;04
Unknown
Her quirk making her voice sound funny. It feels a little bit random, but I like it. Like it feels like a cool thing. Like there's all all sorts of strange things going on. Not all of them are going to be particularly useful for. For the exceptional. Yeah, yeah. So I like that, the pacing, I think throughout this section, it felt like you were doing too much.

00;18;10;07 - 00;18;37;02
Unknown
I even like at the end of, the document that I'll, I'll be sending to you, I have a list of, like, all the major things that are major things that happened or hinted at in this section. And it's a lot for, for, you know, not a massive section. So I think you need to slow down either cut some things out or take some things and expand them, give them more of their more of their, do that's kind of the major problem I had with it.

00;18;37;02 - 00;19;06;01
Unknown
I'm really glad that we're back to what feels like the main case to me. With with Darren Stocker. I feel like it's been probably too long since we've even had it mentioned, and it's. I don't remember, especially when the last time it was talked about. But I think it might have been, you know, 2 or 3, episode sessions since we've, we've been able to talk about the main thing, I think and I think that would be something you could just do something short just to make it kind of put it back into your readers mind.

00;19;06;04 - 00;19;29;14
Unknown
You had the thought that, you know, when Jessica is with Darren, maybe he checks his pocket and he's got one of the notes in there because the stalker was leaving notes in his on his pocket was notes. Doesn't see. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm in the list of stuff that happened. I, I'm interested in on a lot of it this next gen, technology.

00;19;29;16 - 00;19;52;25
Unknown
I'm wondering what you're going to do with that. You had that a brief a call back to the lawyer that we talked about last time. I can't remember. Great. Did we tell them to shorten that section or to cut it? Cut it? Oh, I don't remember. I remember liking the technical details of that section, but I feel that we felt it was out of place in the timeline.

00;19;52;27 - 00;20;10;06
Unknown
Or maybe just the conversation about Eve's nature was at it, like I would have appreciated earlier. AJC whatever you decide to do, obviously we're not we're not your boss. But if you do decide to to cut or condensed, that is you know, I think this, this little callback would be excellent just to make it clear that, hey, this is important.

00;20;10;09 - 00;20;27;20
Unknown
I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on right now, but kind of keep it in your mind and especially like it's it feels like you're setting up some legal shenanigans with this clause that she doesn't understand. So I really like that. I don't know if you're planning anything without if it was just, just a throw away, but that could be something really cool.

00;20;27;22 - 00;20;30;11
Unknown

00;20;30;13 - 00;20;57;06
Unknown
Yeah, that was kind of. That's kind of my main, I may think is, you know, cutting things or expanding things so that they're, that they so that they feel like they felt okay. Okay. All right. Cool. So my apologies. See, when you get this document, I, I read yours first, and I don't know if I just had all this pent up commenting in my system that I needed to get rid of.

00;20;57;09 - 00;21;18;22
Unknown
Because your first page, it's like I almost did more commenting than you did writing. Like, it's not that bad, but, you know, I'm so sorry. I must have apologized a lot. Okay, so, right away, we find Jessica and Eve and Darren. And Jessica and Darren are holding hands. And there's a part of me that's like.

00;21;18;22 - 00;21;46;00
Unknown
Okay, cool. And I it clicked for me that, Jessica, now, as an exceptional as a very arguably powerful, exceptional, has a weakness. She has a Kryptonite and in the form of her relationship to Darren, who is not just her client anymore, is now in a committed relationship with. And and I love that physical proximity. I love, I don't know, almost a symbolism of holding hands like we're going to hold on to each other, gosh darn it.

00;21;46;00 - 00;22;04;29
Unknown
Like people have tried to separate us throughout the years. It's still happening right now. We're going to get to the bottom of this. But I love that. I feel like I would love it even more if you played up, like, continue to play up Jessica's feelings and maybe her insecurities like, whoa, this is happening really quickly. I know that I love you, but do I really like how much my memories?

00;22;04;29 - 00;22;22;28
Unknown
Do I trust the ones that were restored to me? How much do they mean to me after all this time? I feel like there's so much interpersonal connection that you could, explore there. Anyway, so I like that. I like the potential for that. I don't know if you're probably going to build it up later, I'd imagine, but,

00;22;23;00 - 00;22;54;20
Unknown
Cool, cool. And then, Captain Torment, that's such a cool name. It once again, it reminds me of, like, classic comic book kind of titles. Like. That's something. It sounds so like cheesy. It sounds like something from the 70s, like Marvel or even My Hero Academia. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah, I always like that. I think my, my overall critiques of this section are I'm just going to continue to echo things that I have said in the past.

00;22;54;23 - 00;23;17;24
Unknown
I feel that there could be a lot more conflicts that could be used to spice up and season all the interactions that are happening, in these couple of chapters here. I think that all of your characters do continue to be really nice to each other. There's any misunderstandings that occur are kind of, like, automatically cleared up.

00;23;17;26 - 00;23;36;21
Unknown
I do think, just to zoom in on ace for a second, the pros and cons of of her involvement in the story. As I see it, you're walking an interesting tightrope, Jake, since this is a spinoff novel and you continue to refer to events that presumably happened in the main books, just with Ace's involvement.

00;23;36;21 - 00;23;55;17
Unknown
So she's got a lot going on. And in the last chapter of Technomancer, there is this huge something happening offscreen with ace that we now get to kind of get a little bit of context on. So I, I like how you did that. Like it's fine. You don't have to zoom in on that in particular because that's occurring elsewhere.

00;23;55;20 - 00;24;23;24
Unknown
I like the fact that ace is kind of in recovery mode. She's like basically on bedrest on doctor's orders. So even she has vulnerabilities. I did think that, who mentions it? Is it Captain Havoc that mentions that she's on bedrest? JK let's see. Searching through my thousand comments here, I don't think it was bedrest, but she had to like take some time off to like, okay, ace and Angela are mandatory rest for next few days.

00;24;23;24 - 00;24;45;00
Unknown
Yeah, okay. I feel like that was a very casual statement, given the scope of what you what ace is able to to take on. I mean, she's able to like you said, like, survive a nuclear explosion. She's able to do all this crazy stuff, fight the toughest villains. I feel like the fact that she's almost out of commission right now, it should be like a big deal.

00;24;45;00 - 00;25;04;09
Unknown
Like, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I can't believe Superman, you know, has to be on bed rest. You know, that's not the extent of it. And, so that's just kind of thrown out casually. And I would have appreciated a little bit more gravitas, a little bit more like. Wow. And you do kind of address the fact that Angela or excuse me, that, ace is off the street, later.

00;25;04;12 - 00;25;18;19
Unknown
And there seem to be some repercussions about that. And I actually was a bit confused by that section. See if I can find it here.

00;25;18;22 - 00;25;43;23
Unknown
Yeah. Can't find the exact instance, but it felt like the implication was that crime could spike because ace is off the streets. Is that correct? Jessie? Is that why this is. Yeah. You're a community. Yeah. I'm trying to reference back to, here. Unit volume three, where she acts. Ace actually has her weakness used on her.

00;25;43;25 - 00;26;12;20
Unknown
That's not common knowledge. What everybody is told is that she worked herself to exhaustion to get, Exceptionals get something called power fatigue. Where if they use their powers to their limits, they, it's all their physical reserves are gone, and they have to rest before they can use them again. And so that's what I'm, I'm referencing is that incident.

00;26;12;22 - 00;26;40;12
Unknown
I probably need to go a little bit more detail into it. Okay. And do is Jessica, does she know about Ace's weakness and she that she does. You know, she doesn't look. And, spoilers to listeners who haven't read the Hero Unit series. It's nobody's allowed to know Ace's weakness. The person that uses it gets, erased from existence.

00;26;40;15 - 00;27;08;24
Unknown
That's cool. It's it's it's it's it's a Angela unique power. And she does it because people in her mind, people aren't allowed to know that Ace's what Ace's weakness is. And so because everybody would find it and use it like Kryptonite, I mean, I'm trying to avoid the the trap that a lot of writers end up with on Superman is how do we get rid of Superman?

00;27;08;25 - 00;27;41;04
Unknown
We use Kryptonite. How do we deal with Superman? We use Kryptonite. So. The the the the official. There we go. The official story in here are unit three. Is that ace was pushed to the point of exhaustion and wasn't able to work. And as a result, crime on the normal side actually spiked and crime on the exceptional side almost vanished.

00;27;41;06 - 00;28;03;18
Unknown
It was sort of a shock to the Exceptionals community that their most powerful, most prominent figure worked herself to exhaustion. And it it sort of was a reality check for a lot of them. Whereas for the normals, it was like, oh, hey, we can go do things and we don't have to worry about the big bad guy or the big superhero showing up.

00;28;03;21 - 00;28;24;05
Unknown
So yeah, I have so many questions, but they'll they'll wait for it to say so. No. That's so interesting, Jack. I really love that power dynamic in the world. So you said this is referencing back to here. A unit three like that here are unit three. Is it the book that's taking place concurrently with this one?

00;28;24;08 - 00;28;41;03
Unknown
No, this one is happening at the same time. Is here unit five. Okay. All right. That makes sense. Yeah. That's an awesome power dynamic. I, I don't know if you can play that up a little bit here. Just the sense of fear because it's like, oh, no, is history going to repeat itself? Farina. And you do mention it through dialog.

00;28;41;03 - 00;29;01;24
Unknown
But again, it feels so casual. Yeah, I need to I think because that's what I was going for. I want, I want, I don't want it to be casual so that that's good to know. Okay. And then one additional note on ace, and I think just hovering in on this character is probably an indication that she's an interesting character.

00;29;01;24 - 00;29;31;17
Unknown
And we want to know more and we care about how she's utilized. She's like a nuke. I feel like ace, there is a danger here with your your core characters for this book, for Jessica and Eve, that ace could become like a set of training wheels. And if you're not careful enough to go through some plot contrivance or other to take off those training wheels, your main characters may be stifled in their growth or the reader's perception of their growth.

00;29;31;19 - 00;29;54;05
Unknown
Kind of something that occurred to me just as I finish this chapter. I left a comment going in a little some specifics there as to to what class. But yeah. And then just another positive thing, I continue to enjoy, Eve's little instances and what she'll kind of like crack a joke and someone's like, are you joking?

00;29;54;05 - 00;30;11;09
Unknown
I can't tell and like, oh, no, she's serious. When, Eve. Basically when, Jessica and Darren are talking about going on a date and, like, okay, Eve, you want to come kind of jokingly and she's like, yeah, I've always wanted to be a third wheel, like, Eve. And then Jessica has to explain, like, no, she's serious.

00;30;11;09 - 00;30;40;13
Unknown
She's just I do kind of like human experiences. So that was great. And so I feel like, your comedic relief comes in unexpected places. And, if I were you, I would have no shame about milking that. But that's me. That. Good job. Thank you. Yeah. Any questions for us? No, not this time. If you want, I can explain the origin to torments.

00;30;40;13 - 00;31;10;21
Unknown
Hero name? Oh, yes. Please. So she has the prophecy power. And her prophecy power only involves a, It triggers around ace. And she's been having these prophecies since she was about ten. Never knows when it's going to show up. Always wipes her out. And so it's her torment. That's where it comes from. That's just cheesy enough to work.

00;31;10;21 - 00;31;40;17
Unknown
Jesse, I love it. Yeah. And here I, you know, I make, I make, I make reference to sort of the cheesy superhero super villain nicknames in, comic books. So that's awesome. The fact that you pointed that out, I was like, yes. Good job. That's awesome. No, I got I got nothing. There's a possibility that you guys might be getting something different from here on out.

00;31;40;20 - 00;32;01;03
Unknown
Kind of depends on how my reviews or my revisions go with the rest of it. You guys are giving me a lot of feedback, so I might. I can probably go from there, but we'll see. We'll just extrapolate that. Yeah. You think going back to iridescent, what you, it's a toss up between iridescent and the rookie?

00;32;01;05 - 00;32;26;08
Unknown
Depends on which I get the most progress on. Do you listen to iridescent is the one he shared with us when we first started our writing group. Yes. Iridescent is my, a fantasy series on the unaired pilot episode of the show that no one ever. Yep. All right. Thanks. Yeah. Jesse, actually, just question for reminder sake.

00;32;26;08 - 00;32;35;08
Unknown
Are you on a pretty tight schedule publishing wise with, technomancer. At this point? Yeah, I have,

00;32;35;10 - 00;33;04;09
Unknown
Again, I'm an indie. I'm an indie author. I can publish it whenever, but the goal is to release it at Gem State, so, and then in order to not only have it come out, but also have copies, I need to have it done at least three weeks, like done and submitted and approved, at least three weeks ahead of time just to give time for shipping, because that is unfortunately widely variable.

00;33;04;11 - 00;33;23;03
Unknown
I called and talked to an Amazon customer service rep about it once because I made an order and it took six weeks to get to me, and they're like, we literally have no control over that because it's all third party. We submit the we set and submit the requests, and it's up to the printers to get them out to you on time.

00;33;23;05 - 00;33;54;24
Unknown
Just shipping from somewhere in China. It actually, it was, in Illinois during a huge blizzard, like everything was delayed. But I have noticed, having switched from white paper on my books, and I don't think I have a copy of runaway to show the difference I do. Okay, sorry, random technical side note I know we're from our sponsors.

00;33;54;26 - 00;34;21;09
Unknown
Yeah. Doctor Shasta. Yeah. You have no keeper. It. I don't have a doctor. Shasta. Unfortunately. Okay, so this is a proof copy for those that don't know. See, it says not for resale. So you notice that on runaway, the paper is white. Very, very bright white paper. And this not is not a proof copy. It's actually an author copy.

00;34;21;11 - 00;34;43;07
Unknown
I'm using what's called cream paper. It's a little bit yeah. Again I made this before I really knew what I was doing. When I switched to cream paper. It seems like most of the printers are on this side of the Rockies, so they get to me a lot faster. In fact, there is one in, Oregon I ordered from.

00;34;43;07 - 00;35;05;06
Unknown
And when it came from there, it took four days to get here. So yeah, that was actually something I didn't know about the that traditionally fiction is on cream paper and nonfiction is on the white paper. Yep. I've never noticed that. That's. Yeah. It's bonkers. Yeah. And so to me I just because I don't want to reformat and redo everything runaway.

00;35;05;08 - 00;35;28;02
Unknown
Technomancer the Collins with case files are going to be all on white paper, all formatted the same way. Just for consistency sake, having already reformatted every other book I own or have published. Runaway gets pass. Yeah. So it's not like a massive. I always just saw on like a LinkedIn post this week and it's like, oh, that's interesting.

00;35;28;05 - 00;35;48;23
Unknown
Nobody's ever commented on it. So yeah, but to the indie indie writers out there who are self-publishing, Green Paper, keep that in mind. That might mean I'm still looking forward to getting my hands in the sausage. Yeah, like, I love the specifics of this discussion. It's such a nerdy little thing, but I'm sure it's not just that it makes a difference.

00;35;48;28 - 00;36;09;10
Unknown
So that's one of the things. When I first published, I kind of went with the recommended settings on Amazon, and I ended up with a weird, like print size. I was like six by nine or something like that. So when I got it, my book was like this thick and I'm like, that's not right. So I actually went and measured.

00;36;09;12 - 00;36;32;04
Unknown
One of my friends, who's also an indie author, Andrea Pearson, I measured one of her books, and then I went on to Amazon and I was like, okay, what's the nearest print setting to that? And that's what I used. Because there are restrictions on, print size when it comes to distribution. If you pick a weird print size that's not common, they won't do wide distribution at all.

00;36;32;04 - 00;36;57;15
Unknown
It'll only be through Amazon. So that's when you do wide then. Yeah I do, yeah, yeah. Great. I hope you get clipped for how you how you said that. Wanted to get your hands on the sausage. I mean, like how the sausage is made up. Yes, I picked up. I knew what you meant, but it's still a front flap.

00;36;57;18 - 00;37;19;18
Unknown
We say metaphor metaphors. Wrong on this podcast. I do all the time. Can we just go back and correct all of those using I? Oh, that definitely is not. The funny thing is, it looks so funny. One of the classes I took was on metaphors, similes and the like. I'm still going to get them wrong and the like and the like.

00;37;19;21 - 00;37;41;05
Unknown
Okay. All right. Neutral. Sorry. That was a good day. That's a good one. Yeah, yeah, we've been calling the rabbit trails. I feel like other people call the rabbit trails as well. So I think we're. What is the comments? Please correct us. Yeah. No, I had I had a teacher who was really bad at that when I was in massage school.

00;37;41;05 - 00;38;12;08
Unknown
So I heard Rabbit Trail used a lot in that, jk, can I buy the rights to the the screenplay for your your life story? Yeah, I've done some I've done some stuff, I guess. Yeah. You're listening. JK has done a lot of different things. A lot of weird stuff. So let me think. I started, but I started so I started studying Spanish translation interpretation because I'm fluent in Spanish.

00;38;12;11 - 00;38;37;05
Unknown
I moved to Iowa. I'd studied electronics engineering. I got a bachelor's degree in that, then I went to massage therapy school and was a licensed therapist for six years, and then taught anatomy and physiology for a year and a half. And now I'm here in Iowa, Idaho. You could be a sensitivity reader for so many different random things for for a book.

00;38;37;07 - 00;39;06;10
Unknown
Yep. All right. Next time I write a massage theme, I'm definitely having you ever look over theme. No problem. Wow. Seeing. Okay, okay. And just in case, this is Jones soda. Sunset sarsaparilla. It's not a beer. Just wonder. Oh. We are. No, no, we don't always have our audience. Yeah. All right, so we get. It's,

00;39;06;12 - 00;39;41;13
Unknown
Yeah. Just if you want the code too. Great. Yeah, great. If I could give us your piece first. You choose future gray. How now? Brown cow. I am indeed gray older. And this is indeed the context you'll need for this segment. All right, so, Gill, the happy go lucky chaplain who Indian has been traveling with up until this point, has gone missing from the campsite in the dead of night after having followed the suspicious tribesmen a tad to the edge of the campsite as part of his investigation, and then finds himself face to face with this hulking man and they throw down.

00;39;41;16 - 00;40;02;03
Unknown
Yes, there is so much more action in my story than in the other guy's stories. In fact, maybe too much. But let that be all the more reason to buy my book instead of Tyler's. If it comes down to it. Stills. The alternate personality also tags in and out. During the fight, I spell out how to reload a lock musket and oh yeah, where in the world is Gill?

00;40;02;05 - 00;40;08;07
Unknown
I'll turn it over to the guys now so they can make me a better writer by punishing me.

00;40;08;10 - 00;40;44;04
Unknown
All right. Okay, let's see here. Again, same thing with that I did with, Tyler's piece I did with yours. I read it through, and again, nothing really big. Jumped out at me. So initial read was great. As somebody who was looking to critique the piece. What you did initially. Great. And then I went into the then I went in into to to breaking it down.

00;40;44;07 - 00;41;17;19
Unknown
You went into this overall? Yeah. He got his hands on this side. Sorry. We're gonna go viral for the wrong. Yes, yes, we are. The only thing that. So the first thing that stuck out is use the word migraine. It feels like a modernism. And again, as somebody who has migraines, the fight I liked, I like the fight a lot.

00;41;17;19 - 00;41;45;09
Unknown
There was only one comment I made on the initial thing when, the big guy, a tot, grabs neon and throws him, consider shoulder damage in that situation. Getting yanked up by your shoulder and then thrown, it's going to do something to that joint, whether it just stresses the muscles, or something. Again, neon and stills, they're not they're body's not weak.

00;41;45;11 - 00;42;07;13
Unknown
But that's still that's still a lot. So I'm not saying like he has to break it or dislocate it, but definitely strain on it. And it might just be like he feels it in the morning. You know, maybe they'll have to just grab it right now. But yeah, keep in there. I feel like the characters we need to create, like our list of running, list of injuries that they've sustained.

00;42;07;16 - 00;42;34;19
Unknown
Yes. Oh, there's a scene coming up in Technomancer probably 2 or 3 weeks if I, I kind of want to submit that one to you guys just to see what you think of it. Where you get to see Jessica really go all out nice. Let's see here. I like that a that you, you give us limitations to the memory magic because we've seen it used a lot, and it seems pretty powerful and pretty potent.

00;42;34;19 - 00;43;20;21
Unknown
And then he slams attack with this attack and it's like, I gave him a bloody nose and that's it. It didn't really slow him down. So it's important. It's important for those limitations. Like we've talked about a lot that the magic system, whether that's superheroes, whether that's magic, whether that's whatever has limitations. Let's see here. I like the panic attack that neon has after, he gets punched because he has that immediate traumatic response to what atrium had done to him in the liminal space.

00;43;20;23 - 00;43;36;16
Unknown
I thought that fit really well. I like the way you switch between the two, where they're like, you take over, you take over, you take over. You. Well, it's more like still saying, I'm going to take over. Now you take over. Now I'm going to take over. Now you take over. The interaction was really great between the two.

00;43;36;16 - 00;44;03;04
Unknown
I thought, I liked the way it moved. The only thing is. And again, I don't have an answer to this. It feels like there needs to be a visual cue along with the the words that say, hey, we've switched, but I don't know how you would do that beyond, like, switching fonts or something, but that gets really complex, really fast.

00;44;03;07 - 00;44;34;15
Unknown
So I don't know, something to consider. And you can always, like we've always said, throw it out the window because it's too complex or you'd prefer not to. It's fine. Also another note. And this is because, not personal experience when it gets kicked in is cup and his codpiece essentially is sausage. Yeah, I know you're going say that, but.

00;44;34;17 - 00;45;00;02
Unknown
Anyway, so steel plate, green cover. Good idea. They use those. He would still flinch. And I know this because it was either my brother or one of my brother's friends. Took a took a pitch to his cup in, high school baseball, and he had a bruise around his groin where the edge of the cup had pressed.

00;45;00;02 - 00;45;32;22
Unknown
And like, like it stopped it. The the real trauma didn't happen, but there was a cost. So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and in the, in the moment. Yeah. And in the moment stills might not do anything stills and might not do anything. But when everything slows down again he's going to be like, oh, that's uncomfortable. And again I've, I pulled an inner thigh muscle once and and it's not funny.

00;45;32;22 - 00;45;49;07
Unknown
Ouch. Yeah yeah I did I did taekwondo and and wearing a cup in there like it, it feels a lot better than without a cup, believe me. But it's. Yeah, it's not great. So and again, I think I think just don't fall in the chat. And we can't really comment on this because we haven't seen the next session yet.

00;45;49;07 - 00;46;09;01
Unknown
But after being in the fight like this where he has been injured, don't fall into the trap of like not recognizing that he's been injured. Like like like we said, you know, it'd be good to have like a character Bible where you're keeping track of the injuries that they're sustaining, especially because he's not being magically healed, like or and or invulnerable and healing almost instantly, like Jessica.

00;46;09;06 - 00;46;30;22
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I in this chapter, I'm trying to go with like adrenaline covers a multitude of sins, but it does. It does. Which is very true, for sure. And and the funny thing is, I had a another experience. A friend of mine, I guess associate, he was a Swat officer and was on a call. A guy had a knife.

00;46;30;24 - 00;46;51;10
Unknown
The guy stabbed him, threw his body armor into his stomach, and he didn't realize it until he had the guy in cuffs and passed off to his his other officers. And then he looks down and there's a knife stuck in, and he didn't even realize it. That's manly. Yeah. So again, you are right. Adrenaline is going to cover a lot of this.

00;46;51;10 - 00;47;16;05
Unknown
But tomorrow, as it were, when adrenaline is out of the system, man is going to feel like he he's been run over by a truck. It sounds like your friend probably has a big sausage. Yes. Wait, what?

00;47;16;07 - 00;47;38;06
Unknown
I'm trying. He's just trying to get clips. He's just trying to get creative. And so that's clickbait. You clickbait her. Don't, don't. There is a community of writers out there that we will attract by making sausage jokes. I don't know if I want that community of writers that.

00;47;38;08 - 00;47;55;27
Unknown
Are is our most unhinged episode. It's all that sarsaparilla. That's where it is. Says spew that. Just take a pig on. Please don't go spin sexy. You won't.

00;47;56;00 - 00;48;22;09
Unknown
Anyway, so you. I like that the merchant is, out to make a sale. So how the sausage is made. All right. That's a good idea. But there's, there's no the name of this. This episode. Oh, goodness. Jesse. Oh, that's right, that's, The heck the merchant. Okay. Sorry. The merchant is always out to make a sale.

00;48;22;11 - 00;49;00;17
Unknown
He'll do anything to make a sale except listen to a sermon. Let's see here. I'm up. But, that's pretty much it. I like I like the fact that he gets a look at the, on dollars face and dollar. That's one of those. I mean, you can almost call it a cliche or a trope because of the fades in, The Wheel of Time, but it doesn't come across as you trying to mimic that.

00;49;00;19 - 00;49;26;13
Unknown
It comes across as its own thing. Again, it comes to mind simply because I've read The Wheel of Time so much. So don't stress that it's a good description. It's a nice and creepy, and it does what you want it to do. I love the comparison. And, I like that there's a little bit of confusion about men and stills and whose memories are who's.

00;49;26;15 - 00;49;58;19
Unknown
And then let's see. That's pretty much it. Yeah. Like I said, I like the the dynamic you're creating between the two personalities, switching between stills and men, and you're trying not to say something. Keep it to yourself. So I do this. I wasn't here, I thought I was saying something again. Yeah. I didn't even have a I don't even know what you're talking about.

00;49;58;21 - 00;50;21;05
Unknown
Okay. My head for that, for that. Anyway. So to to make a long story short, good job. Good work flows. Well, couple of details to keep in mind as it goes forward. Once the adrenaline's out of their system. Good job. Tyler, can you keep a straight face? I think you look when you put your when you put your fingers here tip.

00;50;21;06 - 00;50;27;18
Unknown
I was like, is he trying to be me? The sausage. Yes, I did.

00;50;27;20 - 00;50;59;21
Unknown
It's like grade school man. Oh my god. Hey, just because, you know, our average age is mid 60s with JC with us doesn't mean that we can't be a little bit immature. Young at heart. Yeah, clearly. What is their average? It'd be in the 30s, I guess, if we should do a poll asking over audience. How old are you driving the car to go over well or have them guess how old we are?

00;50;59;21 - 00;51;23;19
Unknown
Yeah. Hey, I heard that the way that YouTube works, you can actually, garner engagement by getting dislikes. So that's another way to farm engagement. So maybe this episode will do that, but the writers strike. How many people did we have in this episode? Yeah. Just a dislikes and a mean comments. We need more. So, like, I'm kind of sad we don't have more trolls.

00;51;23;21 - 00;51;45;08
Unknown
Yeah. Some people I'm surprised I want more. Honestly, there's been mean comments. That's maybe I don't, but maybe I don't. Anyway. Great. Good section. As always, I enjoy fight scenes. I enjoy reading them. I enjoy, writing them. I did have the concern with this one. It felt like it kind of came out in there.

00;51;45;08 - 00;52;12;07
Unknown
Like, obviously we had the cliffhanger last time, but now now with a tot and it doesn't. I'm not sure that we have like a, like there is a clear motivation, but I want it to be more up front. Not maybe not up front, but I want to explain a little bit more. And also be a part of Todd's characterization, where it doesn't feel like up to this point, like he's a super on edge guy.

00;52;12;10 - 00;52;39;10
Unknown
I mean, obviously we met him when he's about to get into a fight with four, but there was feels it felt like there are other reasons for that. But for him to just randomly attack because man is following him didn't feel super in character for him for what we've seen of him. So maybe sprinkle in some clues that, of why I thought I would react that way, by itself has a lot of really cool moments.

00;52;39;12 - 00;52;56;26
Unknown
I like it when he tries to use his powers. I was interested in in the way that his powers work in the physical world rather than in the liminal space. He felt like in the limitless space it was it was very physical effect. And in the physical world, it has a very mental, very much, like a brain wave, mental attack.

00;52;56;26 - 00;53;21;18
Unknown
So that was interesting. I, I'm a little bit concerned that the fight maybe draws on a little bit too long, you know, not just because, you know, realistically, fights end pretty fast. But I felt like there were a lot of unnecessary beats when it came to this fight. That could have been cut out and maybe condensed or something like that, as summarized.

00;53;21;18 - 00;53;48;18
Unknown
Perhaps you'll have to describe everything blow by blow. It's just it's with that when stills takes over, stills is a better fighter, right? Yes. I wanted that to come out a little bit more because it feels like stills takes over and then they lose the fight, like almost immediately. And I would have liked a beat where they're at least turning the tides a little bit before.

00;53;48;18 - 00;54;13;18
Unknown
It's not, you know, Massive Attack. It just just wrecks them. But we're still gets a chance to do something that works a little bit better than what he does. Does, stills exhaustion come across from, last chapter, or is that pretty much. I don't remember if I had any hits. It did after. It did after they lost the fight.

00;54;13;18 - 00;54;31;18
Unknown
And maybe that's what you need to do. Where where as soon as he, takes control. And I don't know if I agree with Jake. You did feel like it was kind of, They agree because. Neon relinquish control to stills that first time. So it felt like there. But they were both on the same page with who should be in charge.

00;54;31;20 - 00;54;55;23
Unknown
Yeah. And then maybe right after that, gasping for breath. But then I felt like gasping for breath in that paragraph afterwards because he just got, you know, maybe his ribs broken or something. So maybe you could probably cross stills exhaustion a little bit more, and that would have made sense. Why? You know, he just loses. Yeah. I would have liked I would have liked to see stills in action a little bit more.

00;54;55;25 - 00;55;18;28
Unknown
And then with their whole, they seem really comfortable with switching personas now. And we haven't really seen that before. Have we? Felt like it's always been a fight up to until this point. Yeah. That correct. My hope was that the trauma bonding in the last couple of chapters would make it feel natural or like out of necessity due to mental exhaustion, or I think you just need to make that a little bit more explicit.

00;55;19;01 - 00;55;41;13
Unknown
Yeah. Because it felt it felt kind of southern and a little bit out of place to me. But I told, I thought, like, I get, I get, I get what you're trying to do, like, and I know, like, okay, after the liminal space, after, being confronted by Adrien, they're, they're they're closer now, but there could have been a little bit more, explicit detail talking about that.

00;55;41;16 - 00;56;04;03
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Seeing the Angela. Super cool, you know, fades the mentors we have, all these kind of scary dark creatures you could pull inspiration from and not like anybody has a copyright on, cloaked figures that are scary. So, I would have liked a little bit more detail. I feel like with his night vision, he would have seen a lot.

00;56;04;06 - 00;56;21;07
Unknown
And all we get is the one little detail about the eyes which humans can have that you know, you can see a lot, not a lot of people, but there are people who have their gaping holes where there I should be, but through a birth defect or some injury. But you say that there is the Angela.

00;56;21;07 - 00;56;32;03
Unknown
Angela? Or are we seeing that? Right? Angela. Angela. Angela. So it's a girl? No, it's.

00;56;32;06 - 00;57;02;03
Unknown
The legitimate. What piece of the, the Netflix show. Actually, what was I saying? Oh, I was just, like, more details about why it looks inhuman, basically. Or should we call the the Chaplin magic? What the heck is Gil and more do lots of lots of interesting questions. Merchant. Quoth the merchant, had a laugh at you for that, I like that.

00;57;02;04 - 00;57;22;29
Unknown
That's a little. I couldn't resist, you know, a fair. You quote the merchant. Yeah. That's about. That's about what I had to say. As always, you know, it leaves us with questions. One makes me want to read the next section. So very, very good.

00;57;23;02 - 00;57;48;21
Unknown
Cool, cool. Yeah. Why? I was, after I wrote this section, I was thinking about, just the fight scene and, I don't know if there's this book called fight. Right? And, I forget the name of the author, but she's a martial arts instructor and extremely steeped in that. And a bunch of, combat with, you know, all manner of firearms, knives, swords.

00;57;48;23 - 00;58;08;16
Unknown
Anyway. And she appears at conferences. There's a conference this past summer called Rainmakers, I think, back in Missouri that I was hoping to go to. Didn't work out, but I was like, at the very least, I need to buy that book because there's a lot of practical descriptions of how different injuries that you sustain affect a character or how to wield a weapon.

00;58;08;18 - 00;58;38;16
Unknown
What's realistic versus unrealistic? Common misconceptions? Obviously, none of that beats the practical experience of being in a dojo, a firing range, you know, getting stabbed sounds like, a great time. Yeah, all those things. But, writing these scenes definitely drives home my need to research further. Because basically, I'm just coasting off of what I picture in my mind, you know, with a tiny bit, a little sprinkling of research.

00;58;38;18 - 00;59;11;16
Unknown
Cool, cool. I can give you a little bit of feedback on the sword aspect. I have studied a little bit. One more cool part of that I live in Japan. No, I have not Toronto, Canada, but not Japan. I'm like, try. He studied under the Ancient Sword Masters in Toronto, Canada. I believe it, okay. Let's see.

00;59;11;22 - 00;59;47;13
Unknown
I had a question regarding, so, Tyler, you mentioned that it seems a bit sudden that it would suddenly turn, and initiate this physical confrontation with Nin as Nan's kind of snooping around and following him. Another question, just to keep pulling out that string after their fight, did it seem believable at all that that's how it would be so willing to kind of, I don't wanna say reconcile, but, you know, to stop things, to to not kill him, not escalate further once he knows that he's, you know, in charge physically, once he knows he's dominated him.

00;59;47;16 - 01;00;18;19
Unknown
You go ahead, Jake. You, I think you personally, I think you get away with it a little bit because you've got the Angela showing up and that sort of puts a pin in our problems, and they're suddenly that problem. First off, second off, there seems to be the, the fact that Gil isn't there. And I think a tort is.

01;00;18;22 - 01;00;37;09
Unknown
And I want to say close enough, but is. Brains not Branning. Sorry. It seems like he knows a lot about chaplains. Like he points out, obviously Naeun is not a Chaplin because of how he fights. At least that's how it seems to me. Yeah, he seems to be kind of in the know in a lot of things. Yeah.

01;00;37;09 - 01;01;06;01
Unknown
And then to to suddenly not have Gil around, I think is what is other than the fact that, yeah, a tot had that fight. He knew it stills and then knew it. And so I don't think it's unrealistic for him to turn his attention away from, because he says, I didn't think I could subdue someone as tiny as you without killing you or break without killing.

01;01;06;03 - 01;01;30;15
Unknown
So, yeah, I think I think you get away with it, Tyler. You agree? Yeah. And and besides, even, like the distractions that come up, like you say, Jake, I think, and you could have gone kind of either way with this, but when you tussle with another guy, another power go limit. Yeah. Which was with when with boys Tussle and then they're done.

01;01;30;15 - 01;01;50;20
Unknown
You know, they're best friends again. You know like you know I have my I have my, my four year old and I've, I've seen and do this and you know, it feels like a very boy thing to do. And obviously you could have gone the other way because they do actually kind of hurt each other. You know, I think the and put the knife in his thigh and obviously I thought does a lot of damage.

01;01;50;23 - 01;02;07;21
Unknown
So he could definitely could have gone the other way where there's still some reason because he actually did draw blood and do a lot, but it felt it felt natural to me that like, oh, now, now we've, we've discovered who's going to win the fight between the two of us. We'll move on now. We'll, we'll we'll tackle other problems.

01;02;07;24 - 01;02;31;22
Unknown
Okay? So like dad's away. Like Gil's gone, so like, okay, we'll stick it up. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, yeah. It's so funny. You mentioned the the knife wound. I was rereading this chapter and anticipation of tonight. Like, I should know what I said to these guys. I mean, I just had to write it, right? I know, anyway, and then I peeked into the following chapter, and the knife injury does not appear at all.

01;02;31;23 - 01;02;47;28
Unknown
It's like, not even referenced. I just forgot that he had stabbed them in the thigh. And so like, wow, it's a good thing we have critique group because I would have just kept writing, writing the rest of the novel without addressing that at all. And honestly, like that would be a beat that you could, you know, it it might be easier at this point.

01;02;47;28 - 01;03;09;01
Unknown
I don't know how much further you've written past this, but I was to take it out, that he he throws his knife in, he misses or something like, you know, like. Yeah. Because he, you know, either way, he loses his knife. Yeah. His favorite, his favorite knife in his favorite toy. His favorite toy. Poor little assassin boy.

01;03;09;04 - 01;03;37;28
Unknown
Oh, man. There's so much. Okay, so the terrible thing about writing this slowly and what makes me envy VJC even more and convinced me that I need to get on this bandwagon of writing faster, is the fact that I'm writing at this pace in which I'm starting to question decisions I've made midstream, as I'm still writing the first draft and the temptation arises, let me just go back to the first chapter and just tweak this other thing instead of, you know, continuing, to write the ongoing story and to finish that first draft.

01;03;37;28 - 01;03;59;24
Unknown
So, yeah, definitely a temptation there. I'm trying not to succumb to as I make my notes from your feedback. Yeah. One of my students is deep in that, in that vicious cycle. And if he's listening to this, Nathan. Right. You but not revising the first chapter, get yourself unstuck from that swamp. Yeah, just get past this. This is my swamp.

01;03;59;28 - 01;04;17;06
Unknown
Yeah. Because that's. Yeah. Speaking from painful experience, having done it twice now, I have two books where I have deleted the first 30,000 words that I wrote and started over.

01;04;17;08 - 01;04;44;15
Unknown
So, just keep writing. Yeah. Just get finished it and then. And then fix it. Yep. I mean, like, that doesn't entirely go to waste, because all that goes to shaping your voice and all that and your skill. But gosh my gosh. Yeah. 60,000 words. Yep. Yeah I think I told you guys I had to cut 20,000 out of this, out of this book because yeah there was just, it was and it was kind of what I was talking about kind of with both of you.

01;04;44;15 - 01;05;04;19
Unknown
Like there were storylines that didn't make sense to be there anymore. Yeah. And so I just. Yep. Got a rhythm. Yep. And it was good. But it hurt. Yeah. I mean it happens. You'll you'll be writing and you'll get to a point where you're like, you'll go back and you'll revise your reread just because you forgot a point or something.

01;05;04;22 - 01;05;29;20
Unknown
And you'd be like that. That doesn't need to be there, that needs to go, that doesn't fit, that slows things down. So on and so forth. So yeah, honestly, like we talked about editing last episode and that's a big part of development. Developmental editing is giving advice on what to cut. Yep. And and there are practical considerations just even outside of the plot.

01;05;29;23 - 01;05;50;27
Unknown
We talked a little bit about cream versus white paper today, being an indie author on Jake's side and making weird decisions like that with Adam, stop making my mind go all the wrong places, man. I, I don't even know what I said. Don't doubt. No, you don't read that. I don't want to go. Oh, yeah. What was I, Eve.

01;05;50;28 - 01;06;18;24
Unknown
It's okay. So. Yes. Links. Yes. Don't make a joke, darling. Of your novel. Word counts. All right, well, there was the word, Joe. I have been thinking all week about. Stop it. Don't you? We're going to professional here. Yes, I've been thinking for a week and about these considerations of length of your book, because one major consideration is your your cost structure as an indie author.

01;06;18;24 - 01;06;40;09
Unknown
If you're going with, on demand printing and you write a book that's in excess of 100,000 words, it's going to be a 30. But after that, you're potentially bleeding profit because know your cost per book goes up and there's a certain point at which, you know, readers aren't necessarily willing to pay that extra dollar for those extra you know, 20,000 words or whatever that might be.

01;06;40;11 - 01;06;56;19
Unknown
And it's a real question. Are you going to are you going to trim your baby and trim the fat, or are you just going to leave it this bloated mess just because you don't want to, you know, listen to your editors feedback or make those changes cut the things you don't want to cut. Yep. That's, don't do it.

01;06;56;19 - 01;07;31;10
Unknown
It's either to put it into perspective. So no, just this is the dirty word. Just like speaking terms and metaphors and trimming the baby is so nice. And trimming the baby. Yes. To trimming your baby. So that made sense. But yeah. So these these two books costs about $6 as an author for me to print. I mean, if I want to get a profit off of these off Amazon, I have to sell them on Amazon list them between 15 and $20.

01;07;31;10 - 01;07;59;22
Unknown
If I want to make more than $0.50 a book. So, you know, this is actually probably pretty useful for, for the authors, the Hobbit. So this is my copy of The Hobbit. Very worn. You can see how thick it is, but it is kind of short. This, I believe the Hobbit is about 90,000 words. Which is not crazy long for, like, a fantasy, but it is a little bit on the inside, like, it's it's got tiny print.

01;07;59;25 - 01;08;18;15
Unknown
I can't show too many pages because of, copyright. Copyright. But, you'll see copies of The Hobbit. There are a lot bigger than that. And if you go beyond, you know, I want the mind to be about 60,000, my book to be about 60,000 words, because that's, that's going to give me a decent, a decent size book without like, what you're saying.

01;08;18;15 - 01;08;31;22
Unknown
Great. I keep I, I've probably called the ad in like five times a day. I don't, I don't even know that is the last method. Where do you go.

01;08;31;24 - 01;08;48;28
Unknown
Where if. Yeah. Workout if you have like a massive workout. Like, I see people, posting jobs for editing jobs for, like, manuscripts or like 120,000 words. It's like. That's like Brandon Sanderson. Love, man. You're not Brandon Sanderson. Yeah. If it gets shorter, cut as much as you can before it gets really on the chopping block with an editor.

01;08;49;00 - 01;09;13;16
Unknown
Yeah, so I did, because if that's your inspiration, then that's what you're trying to reproduce. Right. And yeah, a difficult tightrope. But the thing is is where did Brandon Sanderson start Mistborn in a land trust. A land trust, a laundress was his first, which is a bigger than Mistborn, but it's still not. It's I, I don't know exactly how long, but it's not.

01;09;13;19 - 01;09;43;22
Unknown
It's not Way of Kings. It's not Words of radiance, you know? He didn't. He didn't get away with thousand page tomes until he had established his reputation as a writer to start. And so, for example, I looked up the word counts of all the Harry Potter's and Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is like 70,000 words long.

01;09;43;24 - 01;10;05;05
Unknown
So I was like, okay, for my first novel, I should shoot for about 60 to 70,000 words because that's that's sort of a good starting length. All of my hero Unit books are just between, 50 and 80.

01;10;05;08 - 01;10;26;17
Unknown
Actually, all my books are between 50 and 80. Yeah, which is a good range. Yeah, very in the sense and really just isn't a good example. I just looked at blind interest and it was 200, 200,000 plus. Yeah I thought a lot interest was a little bit bigger. Yeah. Mistborn isn't to be fair, even the greats make mistakes, I would argue.

01;10;26;17 - 01;10;51;29
Unknown
And so you'll probably scare me for this. That the Well of Ascension is bloated. I think it's too long. Yeah, I think, well, it's a great story, but, that's always been my complaint with Mistborn. The prequels, as it were. Mistborn era one, I think is what he refers to it as two for 4000. Yeah. Mistborn is Miss Mistborn is solid.

01;10;52;01 - 01;11;40;18
Unknown
The next to feel feel like his editor could have. Give him a little bit more feedback. Personally. And it's I mean, I'm not his editor. I'm not a professional editor, but but that's a that's a complaint that exists about, books two and three of Mistborn era one, I should say. So something to consider when you're when you're writing is, there is a word count expectation based in, your genre especially, I don't know how long most of the thrillers I read are, but they're not that long.

01;11;40;21 - 01;11;59;24
Unknown
They have to be quick. So here, a unit's never probably going to get over 80,000 at all, because people aren't going to want to read it in genres. Different considerations, of course, because like thrillers, you almost want thrillers. You almost want your reader to be able to sit down and read it in one sitting like, yeah, like read in a couple hours.

01;11;59;26 - 01;12;18;24
Unknown
Epic fantasy. Of course you're going to get a lot more, you're not going to buy that in an airport and read it on the plane, right? Yeah, exactly. Another consideration going back to our editing conversation last week, million words. You have the Mario paying editor. I was in talks with somebody to edit a manuscript that was like 322,000, and I was really excited.

01;12;18;25 - 01;12;47;01
Unknown
Oh, I bet. But it's. You really want it to be, you know, 50 to 90, 50 to 90,000, probably for for most, for most genres, for most audiences. Yeah. But again, it's you got to establish if you really, really, really want to write 300,000 page or word, not 300,000 pages. Good gravy. 300,000 word. Epic fantasy.

01;12;47;03 - 01;13;17;03
Unknown
Build your reputation. First, start with smaller stuff. Let people know that yes, you are capable of carrying a story from start to finish in 50,000 words and then maybe up to 70,000. Do a few at that length. That way, people, you have established a relationship with your audience. And yes, you were establishing at a certain point and people might say, well, why did you suddenly jump from 70 to 100 or from 70 to 200,000 words?

01;13;17;05 - 01;13;45;14
Unknown
Some of them won't follow you. Some of them some people just will not read books that big. But if you've established yourself as a good writer, if they like your prose, they like how you write. They like your plotlines. Your readers are going to be willing to follow. I mean, when I saw Way of Kings at, the bookstore, I know back when bookstores were a thing, I had read Let Me Think I'd read Mistborn.

01;13;45;20 - 01;14;04;28
Unknown
I had read War Breaker, and I'd read a laundress. And I think Way of Kings is longer than all three of those together. More close. But it was like I just picked it up because I had I trusted that it was going to be good.

01;14;05;01 - 01;14;25;28
Unknown
Yeah. And of course, none of these things were saying are hard and fast rules. They're it's your book. Do what you want. You might you might be wildly successful with your 300,000. Yeah. Word manuscript, but yeah, look at, Patrick Christmas and. Yeah, yeah, name of the wind. Yeah, but it's just statistically, you'll have a better chance of breaking into the industry.

01;14;26;00 - 01;14;56;23
Unknown
Yeah. Was something a little bit more manageable? Yeah. Especially if you're going, trad route. If you're going through an agent, you're doing the acquiring process there. They don't want big books. No publisher does because of the cost of publishing something that big is of a lot higher. Yeah. Just like what grade was in. Yeah. Because that extends both to the Indies and to the and to the traditional.

01;14;56;25 - 01;15;21;05
Unknown
Well I think all this conversation regarding us dog piling Sanderson and some of these other and Rothfuss and others who are way better and more talented. This. Yeah, it's kind of a segue towards perhaps, other books that have inspired us to write in our own journeys. Yeah. The stories that you see on this, that was such a good segue.

01;15;21;05 - 01;15;49;28
Unknown
That was it was a masterful, beautifully done. Beautifully. Yeah. I'm still searching for a way to use the word sausage of it hasn't worked. Let's talk about how the sausage is in their mind or with the mind sausage sometimes. Oh my gosh. Anyway, I will force you to regain composure just mentally. What would you say are your your major inspirations?

01;15;49;28 - 01;16;19;20
Unknown
Jesse? What? Okay. Inspired you to pick up the pen and write so the I can I can actually trace it back to a few things, and I I've done this in one of my the foreword to the hero unit rewrite. So there are two major influences. One or the books I was read at school. Specifically, my Father's Dragon and how Jervis the dragon lost his head.

01;16;19;22 - 01;16;44;23
Unknown
Those two inspired my love of fantasy. Where the mystery comes in is actually my mom. She loves Agatha Christie. She loves, murder. She wrote Perry Mason, the TV show, not the books. I don't know if she's ever read the Perry Mason books. Matlock. And so growing up, those were always on. I was always, you know, Perry Mason was always on.

01;16;44;23 - 01;17;17;09
Unknown
Matlock was always on. Murder She Wrote was always on. That's what we watched growing up, and that shaped how I look at stories. I like the mystery aspect, but the pulpy kind of feel that some of those stories have. And then I went into elementary school and read the Redwall series. You know, back in the dinosaur days when there was only five of them.

01;17;17;12 - 01;17;44;15
Unknown
I can remember all of them coming out almost. And then from there it was, and McCaffrey with Pern, and then into the Wheel of Time and the Wheel of Time, really, really was the big one that I was like, okay, I really want to write something like this. I couldn't I'm not good at writing epic fantasy. I have learned, I that's where a lot of my novel first books went didn't work, not something I could do.

01;17;44;15 - 01;18;17;13
Unknown
I couldn't do the plot lines. They got very boring very quickly. So that's that's I mean, that's those are my inspirations. Tyler, how about you? Not to brag, but. Okay, you're probably old. You're probably young enough for this. JK did you have are are points when you're going to school? Okay, sir, I must have been around for centuries and I don't know, wait, what is this points?

01;18;17;13 - 01;18;39;10
Unknown
You know how I like celebrated readers and get and get a get points. You grew up in California. You grew up in California, right? Don't tell people that how to know it. So it's it's only in not every state does it. Oregon does it, Idaho does it. I don't like Washington. It does, because that's where she grew up.

01;18;39;13 - 01;19;02;15
Unknown
But not to brag, but in my elementary school, for like 2 to 3 years running, I had the most are boys. I read absolutely everything. And I think part of why I'm a half decent writer like I am is because I have all these words that I've, I've read, we've talked about how in the past, in past episodes are really important as a writer to be a reader.

01;19;02;18 - 01;19;24;25
Unknown
But for for Hounds of Brecken specifically, what kind of led me on the sounds of Brecken is contemporary fantasy. You know, most of it's going to take place in this world, but there's still magic and stuff. Next book we'll get into other worlds, which would be really fun. But for contemporary fantasy, my big inspirations are The Dresden Files by Jim Butcher.

01;19;24;28 - 01;19;45;29
Unknown
The October Day series by, Sheehan and Shannon McGuire. Shannon McGuire. I think it's how you say it. Those are really, really good. And I also kind of I was into Faye before all the face. My era came into it. And so she kind of led me along that path. Holly Black, I like a lot of her stuff.

01;19;46;02 - 01;20;01;15
Unknown
There's lots of other cool, very, very stories that aren't, what they are. A lot of them are today. That kind of like month back to kind of wanted to have some things. Faye inspired contemporary and yeah.

01;20;01;17 - 01;20;26;02
Unknown
Nice. What about you again? What was the what was the October series? Cold. So October day, I can't remember the name of series. I think it might just be the October Day series. October. But Shannon McGuire, SCA and and and then McGuire. McHugh I r e I think is how you spell it in highly highly recommend. I'll look that up.

01;20;26;05 - 01;20;54;04
Unknown
Yeah. And they're both kind of, you know, detective stuff, which is the root I went with it, but I liked the aspect of having the secret history aspect a little bit where there's, you know, magic on, on, on the down low in the real world, affecting everything. But not necessarily everyone knowing about not having it be like a magical realism where everybody just accepts that magic is real, and lives their lives with magic.

01;20;54;04 - 01;21;21;26
Unknown
But how? It is still secretive. Nice. All right. For me, I would say that I. I came to writing fantasy in a rather roundabout way. So I grew up. Do you guys remember the goosebumps books? Oh, the R.L. Stine. Yeah, I love those. They even had a few choose your own adventure books in that series.

01;21;21;26 - 01;21;42;02
Unknown
So I would go to the library and I would seek that out, or my brother and I would try to find there is this, like, monster encyclopedia that they had in the adult section there you find all these cool entries about, like, the Wendigo and these nice obscure mythological creatures. What else are you finding in the adult section?

01;21;42;04 - 01;22;15;25
Unknown
Oh. My goodness, you need more sleep, Tyler, I really do, too. I'm a little bit, a little bit off the wall today. Your face needs more sleep. Tyler. Oh, you poor thing. You're sucking. Know no acknowledge. Okay. Okay. Must like encyclopedia. Yes. So anyways, I, I was always kind of enamored with, like, ghost stories, and kind of had that gothic feel.

01;22;15;27 - 01;22;35;12
Unknown
And I've always been into writing creatively. And in sixth grade, I basically started the kernels of what would eventually become what I'm writing now, and I was so stubborn that I wouldn't let that go, even though it was a terrible story. I would just hold on to different versions of it, and it would just mutate in my brain over the decades.

01;22;35;15 - 01;22;58;01
Unknown
You know, I'm now 70 years old, so it's been rattling around in there for a long time. And so when I had this feeling like, I need to get this story out of me, I need to write this and write this. Well, which means I need to get serious. I had been reading, exclusively, almost just a bunch of old collections of Victorian ghost stories, which probably don't sell very well nowadays.

01;22;58;03 - 01;23;17;07
Unknown
So I was reading a lot of Robert Louis Stevenson. Dickens has some short stories other than, you know, the Christmas story, algorithm. Blackwood. There's a slew of others from that time period, most of whom have been forgotten. And I was reading those, but I really like the idea of taking that feel and mashing it up with a fantasy setting.

01;23;17;09 - 01;23;41;19
Unknown
And, you know, there's obvious inspirations like Lord of the rings, you know, you talked about The fade being an inspiration for the Angela in my book. Obviously the Ringwraiths are just so cool, and the Witch King is the best character in the Lord of the rings. He has like what? One speaking line. So just like Darth Maul, all the coolest characters have approximately 1 or 2 speaking lines before they die.

01;23;41;21 - 01;24;03;23
Unknown
But all of those things. Yeah. No. No man can kill me. Yeah. And then it's kind of in. So I've just expanded my interests beyond that. And now I'm reading exclusively, almost in my genre and fantasy, to continually inform myself as to how to take those things that I like those different toppings and put them on this particular ice cream.

01;24;03;26 - 01;24;23;10
Unknown
Did I get a metaphor right this time? I think so, I don't know. Yeah. You don't know anymore. Yeah. We've all lost my story. I'm sticking to it. Yeah. I can't believe you mentioned the word the rings, and I did, and I'm, like, such a massive Lord of the rings. Dude. The funny thing is, is I didn't read Lord of the rings until college.

01;24;23;13 - 01;24;51;23
Unknown
Really? Yeah. Yeah. I, my older brother hooked me and, the Wheel of Time so fast, and that was, like, just became such a big part of what I was reading that I didn't really hear. Like, pretty much, I grew up in such a small town that, if my older brother didn't tell me about it, I almost didn't expand out my reading.

01;24;51;26 - 01;25;30;06
Unknown
But as I got, you know, into college and got to take one of the coolest classes ever at BYU, studies of science fiction and fantasy. Nice. Nice. That was that was a great class. That introduced me to, like, Lovecraft. Yeah. Lovecraft is, which I yeah, I mean Lovecraft. I love that craft. Yeah. And it's it it gives you a peek into how writing has changed over the, over the years, especially now that I'm, doing my A and reading Jane Austen to see, you know, you know, I read Mary Shelley and Jane Austen, and then I read Lovecraft, and then I read.

01;25;30;09 - 01;25;38;25
Unknown
I mean, even Robert Jordan started writing. Well. Mr.. When was The Eye of the world published? Late 80s.

01;25;38;28 - 01;26;03;29
Unknown
Even between, you know, when that came out and now how writing has changed and how it progresses. It helps to, to see that if I want to write in a specific genre, like gray was saying, I need to make sure I'm studying that genre and that style to get it to where it fits. So it's it's a lot of work.

01;26;03;29 - 01;26;19;24
Unknown
It's a lot of reading. But if you want to be like Tyler is said, if you want to be a good writer in general, again, we don't want to make we don't want to speak in absolutes. But in general, if you want to be a good writer, you need to be an avid reader only, as Smith deals in.

01;26;19;24 - 01;26;29;16
Unknown
Absolutely. Yeah. So says the Jedi, dealing in absolutes. Yeah, yeah.

01;26;29;18 - 01;26;49;20
Unknown
All right. Well, I think we've we've done it. We've stumbled across the finish line. Yeah. And astonishingly, this might be one of our shorter episodes. Yeah. We're only really. Yeah. 122 yeah. Nice. And then we'll, you know, we'll add in the context and the introduction to be a little bit longer than that. But yeah, that'll be good for your listener.

01;26;49;22 - 01;27;13;18
Unknown
We love you. Thank you for being here. Yeah I'm sorry for all the sausage jokes you put up with a lot. Yeah. Do you. Right. This is a wild one. We may get censored, Tyler. Specifically, the screen may be just be blank. There may be two of us talking. I was almost that way, but without Greg. Yes. Oh, my gosh, what a night.

01;27;13;20 - 01;27;17;29
Unknown
What? Oh. All right. Okay. All right. Bye bye.