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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
Meaghan: Welcome to another episode
of the Effective Ministry Podcast,
the podcast that helps you to have
an effective youth and children's
ministry in your local church.
My name is Megan Gates and I'm a
part of the Ministry support team
with Youth Works here in Sydney.
Today's episode is a little
bit different to normal.
We'll be listening in on the
think tank run by Louise Gobel
on the importance of belonging.
There'll be comments, particularly
on its relevance to ministry, and
particularly children and youth ministry.
In your local context, you'll hear
teaching from Louise as well as
a little bit of reflection and
q and a from the guests as they
engage more with the content.
Enjoy.
Now.
Annemarie: Uh, hello and welcome.
My name's Anne-Marie.
I'm part of the Youth Works
Ministry Support team.
Um, and welcome to our first
theology Think Tank for 2026.
Uh, this one is with Dr.
Louise Gosper, and we're
talking about creating spaces of
belonging for children and youth.
It's a very interesting topic and I think
that's why we're seeing so many people.
Um, this is a collaboration
between YouthWorks College
and the Ministry support team.
Um, and I would, I'm very
happy to introduce Louise.
Uh, Louise.
Can you tell us a little bit about you?
Um, how have you come to be
involved in the ministry world?
Louise: Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, so I've been involved in, in ministry,
I guess, for a very long time, uh, and,
uh, part of the academic world, uh,
as well as part of the ministry world.
For me, it's always been really important
to hold those two things together.
So I've been involved for a very long
time in, uh, um, helping churches to
be places of welcome and inclusion
for, uh, people with disabilities.
So that's been my main
ministry area for a long time.
I spent 15 years as the voluntary
coordinator for the Sydney
region for a disability inclusion
program with CBM Australia.
These days I don't do
quite as much of that.
I have, um, some significant health
issues that limit my ability to be
able to do that, but I still get
to do some, uh, public speaking and
training and opportunities like this.
So this topic of belonging came to
me because of my, uh, interest in
disability inclusion, but I think
it's a really important topic, um,
much more broadly than that as well.
So I'm really excited to be able
to share some of my experiences
and my passion for this topic of
belonging with everyone this evening.
Annemarie: Yeah.
That's so great.
I'm looking forward to
hearing about it too.
Uh, and our paths have crossed a few
times over the years, but particularly
last year when I did your disability
subject through YouthWorks College.
Um, and that was really fantastic.
It talked about a whole heap of
different areas, um, some of which
I wasn't expecting, and lots of
interesting ideas like the belonging.
Um, can you tell us a bit more about that?
Louise: Yeah, so this was, um, it, it's
an area I'm really passionate about.
I do write academically in this
space and as I said, done training
in this space for a really long time.
Um, and one of the things that, you
know, I've seen over the last few years
is a lot more questions from childrens
and youth ministers about what we can do
to better support families and children
with disability and neurodivergence.
But the reality is for a lot of people
who are doing theological training, you
might go through that whole, you know,
2, 3, 4, 5 years of your study having
not actually talked about the topic of
disability on Neurodivergence at all and
how we might be able to support people,
um, better in our ministry context.
And so I pitched the idea of
this subject to Mike Dicker who
went, yes, this is fabulous.
Let's do this.
This is really well needed.
Um, and it all fell into place amazingly.
So we ran that as an online unit last
year, but this year we're going to
be running it as an in-person unit.
So it's going to be an intensive that
will run a couple of days in July
and a couple of days in September.
Uh, so if you're interested in perhaps
doing that subject, um, you can always
contact us, uh, someone at YouthWorks
or have a look on the website or the
Australian University of Theology
website, which will tell you a bit
more about the subject as well.
Annemarie: That's right.
And if you need some convincing, um, I'm
happy to help anyone in that respect.
I can speak very highly about Louise's
ability as a lecturer and presenter.
. Over to you, Louise.
Louise: Fabulous.
Okay.
So we are gonna be talking about what
it means to create communities of
belonging for children and young people.
Um, belonging is a bit of
a buzzword at the moment.
Uh, and there's a lot of research that's
being done on this topic of belonging.
Um, lots of different
kinds of researchers.
Uh, trying to understand, pin down
what it is that we mean by this
word, belonging, uh, and how we can
actually cultivate communities of
belonging in lots of different areas.
So you've got teachers and
educationalists, you've got
anthropologists, you've got
psychologists, as well as those of us
working in in theology and biblical
studies who are also exploring this
topic of belonging at the moment.
And the interesting thing is the more
research that's done on this topic of
belonging, the more we realize that
the concept of belonging actually
really matters and has a really
important, uh, role in our lives.
So what we're gonna do is have
a think about that tonight.
And in particular, the idea that
to what and to whom we belong
and feel we belong matters.
So to what and to whom we belong,
and how we feel about that belonging
actually matters for us as human beings.
Oh, hope Take is working as it should.
Okay.
I like to also at the start of a
presentation give you a sense of
where we're going to go so that you
know what I'm gonna be, uh, covering.
Uh, and so I just wanna quickly
run through that so that you'll be
oriented on how we're gonna be using
our time together this evening.
So what I would, what I want to do is
start with, uh, a bit of a theological
framework for the topic of belonging.
So we're gonna start by having a
look at a passage in one Corinthians
12 and Paul's image of the body
of Christ that he uses there.
We're gonna talk a little bit about some
of the secular research on belonging,
and then we're gonna spend some time
together having a look at what's called
the Dimensions of Belonging Framework.
So these are basically a set of
ideas or concepts, um, that are
essential to the idea of belonging.
So we're gonna spend a little bit of
time in a breakout group talking about
what these dimensions might mean for you
and your particular ministry context.
Then we'll have a short break.
Then we're gonna come back in and
pick up again, and we are gonna
do a different activity with the
dimensions of Belonging framework.
And then I'm going to round out
the session by giving some tips
on how we can foster belonging
with children and young people.
So let's start then by having a look
at one Corinthians 12 as a bit of a
framework for thinking about this idea of
belonging from a Christian perspective.
Now I've called on my fabulous
friend Beck, who is going to be
reading out the passage for us.
So I've got it across a few slides.
Um, but Beck will hand over to
you, um, to read that out for us.
Bec Baines: So, uh, starting at verse 12,
just as a body though, one has many parts,
but all its many parts form one body.
So it is with Christ, for we were all
baptized by one spirit, so as to form
one body where the Jews or Gentiles,
slave or free, and we're all given the
one spirit to drink even so the body is
not made up of one part, but of many.
Now, if the foot should say, because
I'm not a hand, I do not belong
to the body, it would not for that
reason, stop being part of the body.
And if the ear should say, because
I'm not an eye, I do not belong
to the body, it would not for that
reason, stop being part of the body.
If the whole body were an eye,
where would the sense of hearing be?
If the whole body were an ear,
where would the sense of smell be?
But in fact, God has placed the
parts in the body, every one of
them, just as he wanted them to be.
If they were all one part, where
would the body be as it is?
There are many parts, but one
body, the eye cannot say to
the hand, I don't need you.
And the head cannot say to
the feet, I don't need you.
On the contrary, those parts of the body
that seem to be weak, are indispensable,
and the parts that we think are less
honorable, we treat with special honor.
And the parts that are unpresentable
are treated with special modesty.
While our presentable parts need no
special treatment, but God has put
the body together giving greater
honor to the parts that laced so
that there should be no division in
the body, but that its parts should
have equal concern for each other.
If one part suffers, every
part suffers with it.
If one part is honored,
every part rejoices with it.
Now you or the body of Christ and
each one of you is a part of it.
God has placed in the church.
First of all, apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts
of healing, of helping, of guidance,
and of different kinds of tongues.
Are all apostles?
Are all prophets?
Are all teachers?
Do all work miracles?
Do all have gifts of healing?
Do all speak in tongues?
Do all interpret now eagerly
desire the greater gifts.
Louise: Thank you, Beck.
Alright, so this is, uh,
a really fabulous passage.
Um, I could spend a very long
time talking about this passage.
I've got, uh, a number of book
chapters and journal articles
I've written on this passage.
'cause I, I think there's so much
that we can take away from this in,
in terms of thinking about what it
means for us to be connected to one
another as members of Christ's body.
So here in one Corinthians 12, you know,
Paul uses this image of a human body as
a, as a metaphor for the relationship
between Jesus and the members of his body.
That is believers, people
who are followers of Christ.
But it also describes the
relationship between or among
the members of the body as well.
So Paul says, interestingly,
this is the way it is.
You are the body of Christ.
We are together, the body of Christ.
And in that body, all members
of the body are valuable and
have an important role to play.
Despite the reality of this that
Paul describes to us, it isn't
actually always the way that Christ
followers end up treating one another.
You know, and Paul, uh, writes to
the church in Corinth, I think in
part to address this very issue,
you've got the church in Corinth
that was plagued by arguments and
divisions and people thinking of
themselves more highly than others.
People with status in the world
felt that they were entitled to
that same status inside the church.
And some people believed that, uh,
they had the better and more impressive
spiritual gifts than others, and
that gave them a, a status or power
within the church community as well.
And so Paul ends up writing because
I think he sees a disconnect.
Uh, he sees a disconnect between
the reality of the situation.
That is, you are members of the body of
Christ, you are connected to one another.
The reality of what he sees playing out
in the church in Corinth, where people
aren't living a way that reflects this
reality of this interconnectedness in this
valuing of all of the members of the body.
They're treating some as though they're
more important and valuable than others.
Leaving people from what Paul seems
to be saying, leaving some, like
they actually questioned whether they
belong in the body of Christ at all.
And so Paul was writing, I think, to try
and change the actions and the behavior
of Christ's followers to better align
with the reality of what it means for us
to be members of Christ's body together.
So I could talk about this
passage for a really long time.
Um, but just very briefly in summary why
I think this is helpful for us in our
thinking about this topic of belonging.
Paul's saying to us, all those who are
in Christ are in the body of Christ
and so they belong to Christ and are
bound and connected then to one another.
So our relationship to Christ is important
and plays out in the way that we are
connected and have a sense of community
with other members of the body of Christ.
But the reality is we don't always
live as though this is the case.
There is this disconnect that
Paul seems to be addressing here.
And so I think one of the things
that Paul is doing is challenging us.
To live out the reality of what it
means for us to belong to Christ
and be connected to one another.
And so this means that we, I think we
should desire to create communities where
all people, including children and young
people, feel that they belong in order
to reflect the reality of their belonging
to Christ and the Christian community.
So here is the reality that Paul's talking
about, we are the body of Christ, but the
reality on the ground is perhaps we don't
always reflect that as well as we should.
And so part of an interest in
belonging is thinking about what can
we do to facilitate belonging so that
our communities better reflect the
reality of the fact that we are the
body of Christ in community together.
So that is our theological
framework for thinking about this.
There's lots of other passages you
could obviously look at and have
a think about, but what I wanna
do is also give us a little bit of
insight into what current research
is doing, um, in the secular world
in terms of discussions of belonging.
And then after I, I do this, we'll
have some time for some questions and
discussions about these things as well.
So what I wanna ask you is this, if you
put yourself into some context, maybe
you remember back to your own schooling
situation or think about your life in
church now, or perhaps in a previous
church that you were a part of, what
does it actually feel like to belong?
What words do you associate
with a feeling of belonging?
Now, what I'd like us to do is that
I've, I've got a menti meter set up,
and so if you're brave enough to be able
to, um, connect with the technology,
what you can do is grab your phone and
you can scan the QR code that is here.
And what it, what that will do
is just give you an opportunity
just to put one word in.
If you think about the experience of
belonging or what it means to belong,
what's a word that comes to mind for you?
So I'll just give you a moment to do that.
I'm gonna click out of my slides and
we'll go into the ED and have a bit of a
look at what people are putting together
so we've got wholeness.
I love that.
Understood.
Connection, conversation,
welcome, acceptance, relaxed.
I dunno if that means, I assume that means
that lots of people have put that one in.
Acceptance, feeling safe.
And then we've got safe in there as well.
Noticed
peace
known.
Fabulous someone said be
myself shared purpose.
That's fabulous.
I love that.
Alright, that's great.
Thank you.
That's really useful.
There's some really
great stuff that's there.
Okay, so just to, um, connect with
what some people have said as part
of that mentee, I'm gonna just go
through a couple of things and then we
might pick up on some of these ideas
that people have shared together.
So there's lots of different ideas that
come out in the literature, and you're
exactly spot on with the things that
you've shared in the mentee there about,
uh, what people put in the literature.
It's one of those things that's
really hard to pin down, right?
You know, what it's like when
you feel like you're a part of
something and you do belong.
But how do you define belonging?
It's actually a bit of a tricky thing.
So here's some of the things
that the scholars tell us about,
uh, what belonging entails.
So there's one scholar that says,
uh, it's about feeling needed,
important, integral, valued,
respected, or feeling in harmony with.
Another one says, belonging is
about connectedness, attachment,
membership, and relatedness.
So a lot of those words
came up in your feedback.
Belonging is about feelings
of value, respect, and fit.
So being able to fit into a group.
And then there's a final one here,
which I've included, which says that
belonging is about a personal, intimate
feeling of being at home in a place.
And I really, I really love that last one.
Imagine if we could say that the
children and young people who are
part of our programs feel like they
are at home in a space, in the, in
the programs, in the, in the church
community that we are fostering.
Uh, I love that idea of
people feeling at home.
If you know anything about, um, John
Swinton as a scholar, you might know his
work in disability, but he actually says
this about the experience of belonging.
Uh, so because it is hard to pin
down, how do you define it often it's
talked about, well, um, it it's a bit
complex, but one of the things you know
about the belonging is, um, that you
know, you belong when you are missed.
And so he says to belong,
you need to be missed.
Now those of you, and I can see a
few of you on my screens who, um, are
familiar with John Swinton's work.
Um, so you would probably already
be familiar with this quote, but
I'm wondering, is anyone to brave
enough to share with us, what do
you think John Swinton means when
he talks about belonging and says
to belong you need to be missed?
Al James: Um, sky has said, um,
noticed and noticed when not there.
Louise: Yeah, great.
Excellent.
Thanks Sky.
That's fabulous.
Anyone got anything else
they'd like to add to that?
Al James: Uh, Robbie says
kind of like a puzzle.
You are a piece that ruins the
picture when you're not there.
Love.
Louise: That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's wonderful.
Al James: Um, Susie has said
it's not the same without you.
Louise: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fabulous.
Thank you so much for sharing.
These are all really important concepts
and so, uh, it might be hard to explain
exactly what it is when you are there,
but people notice when you're not there.
Uh, people recognize that there's a
space for you in the community that you
actually, you fit and your your, um, lack
of presence is noticed and we feel like
we're missing out when you're not around.
I think that's really significant.
So it's not like people are
thinking, oh, thank goodness this
person isn't here today, but, well,
we really noticed your absence.
So you know, you belong when you're
embedded in a community, when you
have that kind of awareness, uh, that
people miss you when you're not there.
And, uh, I guess one of the
questions we should ask is
then what do we do about that?
Sometimes we might notice that
someone's not there, but we might
not actually do anything about that.
Uh, so it might challenge us to, to
think a little bit about what that means
for us to, to act when we do notice
that someone isn't there actually.
Alright, well I'm gonna stop the
screen, uh, share just for a moment.
'cause I wanna pause.
So we've gone through some things so far.
We've gone a little bit about some, uh,
new Testament frameworks for thinking
about belonging from one Corinthians 12.
We talked a little bit about some
of the secular literature that
comes up and some of the feelings.
We've heard some people's thoughts
already about what belonging is.
Do you have any questions or comments
or reflections at this point about
this concept of belonging, um, more
broadly or how it might relate to us
in the children's ministry context?
We're all good at the moment.
Alright.
Fabulous.
Okay, well feel free to throw any
questions up as they come along.
Okay.
Alright.
So one of the other things
that comes up in the literature
from the secular world is.
Some really interesting things
about the benefits of belonging.
What are the benefits of having a
sense of belonging in a community?
There's some really interesting
things, some things that
might actually surprise you.
Um, there's been a whole lot of research
that talks about the benefits of what
it means to belong in a community.
One of the things that comes up very often
is that there are mental health benefits
to feeling like you belong in a community.
And that research shows us that when
you feel that you belong in a community,
that uh, it can lower anxiety and
depression and it can reduce significantly
feelings of loneliness and isolation.
That's quite amazing, isn't it?
That connectedness, belonging
is so much a part of who we are.
Um, the way that God has created us,
that connection and belonging has a
direct impact on our mental health.
Uh, there's a lot of research
that shows that when you feel
like you belong to a community,
there's an increased resilience.
So belonging helps individuals to
navigate or cope with or bounce back
from stressful and difficult times.
I think this is really significant
for us in thinking about
children's and youth ministry.
You know, you think about the
kinds of things children and young
people are trying to navigate in
their lives, going through puberty,
you know, who wants to even think
about that time of our life again?
Um, maybe the hardships
of being at school.
Uh, the stresses of, uh, social media,
ai, all the sorts of things that children
and young people are experiencing.
But actually when you belong to a
community, when you're embedded well in
a community, when you have all of that
sense of connection and belonging and
acceptance that came up in our word chart
there, that this actually helps you to be
able to, to navigate difficult situations
that might come up in your life.
Interestingly, research shows us that
it can have an impact on your physical
health as well as your mental health.
So there's data that shows us that when
you belong to a community, that uh,
it can actually lower your heart rate,
that you can sleep better, and that you
can have an increase in your immunity.
Um, isn't that fascinating?
That belonging is so much a part
of who we are, such a desire for us
as human beings, that it can have
an impact on our physical health.
And there's lots and lots of research
that tells us that when we belong, uh,
we actually can have improved mental
and emotional wellbeing overall.
So there's lots of fabulous, really
important reasons why facilitating
belonging can be really important
for children and young people.
In Australia, we have what's
called the Children's Education
and Care Quality Authority.
Um.
Part of this children's education care
quality framework, uh, is this national
quality framework, which is actually
called belonging, being and Becoming.
So this framework is meant to be a
foundation for early childhood care in
Australia, and it's actually significant
that part of this document talks about
belonging, because belonging is such a
central part of who we are as humans,
and we're understanding this better.
This document that teaches a foundation
for education, um, with children and
young people, has belonging as one of
the key center ideas of this document.
And if you read this document right at the
beginning, it says this really significant
statement, experiencing belonging,
knowing where and with whom you belong.
Is integral to human existence.
Isn't that interesting that there is an
understanding in the secular literature
that an idea of belonging is actually
so important to us as human beings?
Um, that it is integral to, to our
entire existence in some respects,
is what this document says.
Now it's, I, I reflect on this
from a Christian framework.
I love all of this research.
This is so helpful, but it does really
remind me of the way that God has built
in for us, a need to be in connection
with him and in connection with others.
That we have a desire and in built
desire to be part of community
and to have this connection.
And I want kids to have a sense of
belonging in their families, you
know, in their schools, in their
sporting groups, um, all the sorts
of different places that kids and
young people might be connected with.
But if we know that the most important
relationship that they have is
with God, then having a sense of
belonging in their church community
and understanding they belong to God
and are connected to others in the
Christian community actually becomes a
really important part of what we do in
working with children and young people.
It is helping to affirm that idea
of, to whom do I actually belong?
I, I belong to God.
And because of that, I live in
Christian community together.
So that's a little bit of a
background to set the scene
for us in where we're gonna go.
What I want to do now is kind of move
into starting to think about what
we can do as, um, as communities,
people who are doing children's in
youth ministry to foster this idea of
belonging amongst children and youth.
So I wanna introduce you two, what
is called the Dimensions of Belonging
Framework, . So what are the things that
are the components of belonging and what
are the things that help children and
young people to feel that they belong?
So what was developed a few years
ago by a guy called Eric Carter
and some colleagues, uh, in the
United States is what's called the
Dimensions of Belonging framework.
Now I wanna give you a bit of a
background on where this originated
so you can understand, um, how it
came to be and then how it's been,
uh, used and adapted over the years.
So this originally came out of
a research project with parents
of children with disability.
And so these parents were asked,
what elements do you see as
being necessary for your child to
feel that they belong in church?
So, as human participant research, Hey,
what is your experiences of church and
what are the things that you think are
vital for your child or young person
to actually feel like they belong?
And these answers that parents gave the
most common answers were what we use
to come up with what is now known as
the Dimensions of Belonging framework.
So take a moment to have a look at
that image that's on the screen there.
So you've got 10 different ideas that
are here, and uh, the idea is that all of
these things combine together, help us.
To create a sense of belonging for, um,
for members of our church community.
Although this originated with families
of children with disability, it's
now used much, much more broadly,
uh, across churches for people to
think about issues of belonging.
Uh, it's used in educational context,
um, for students in schools, uh, and
how they feel about their belonging.
So although it started very
specifically with the parents of
children with disability, it's
actually used a lot more broadly now.
So I have a look at those
different components there.
Um, and the, the ideas of what have been
put together as the components that are
vital to having a sense of belonging.
Now, there's a couple
of different versions.
You can Google this and you can find a
few different versions of this that exist.
Here is a different version, so
it's the same information, but
it's been put in a different way.
So some of the earlier versions
looked a bit like this, and some
more recent versions look like this.
Now, in the other version, it's kind of
like, here's a pie and here's all the
pieces of pie, but it doesn't really
matter, uh, what order they come in.
They're all just pieces of pie together
that make up this idea of belonging.
But in the earliest version,
and then in the most recent
version, there is this one.
And what is important in this
version is that there is an idea
that belonging is a bit of a journey.
You start out at number one there
with just being present or invited
into a space, into a church community.
But as you get to know that community,
as people get to know you, that there
is a deepening sense of relationship,
there is a greater sense of connection.
And as you move around that circle,
then from welcomed and known, accepted,
supported, heard, befriended, eventually
you're into a deep sense of belonging
or has in the chart here of flourishing
When you are needed and loved, there
is a deep connection that grows as
you get to know that community and
that community get to know you.
Um, there is a slight shift in the
language here in the original one.
It talks about being cared for, but
in the most recent versions they
talked about here, uh, heard that
being heard is actually a really
important component of belonging.
Uh, I wanna get your thoughts on this.
On this framework, what do
you think about these ideas of
these dimensions of belonging?
Do they resonate with you?
Do they make sense?
Do you feel like, yeah, this is
actually helpful for me in my
church context in thinking about
creating a space of belonging.
And so I want you to think about
how it might be helpful for you
in your particular children's
and youth ministry context.
Alright, well hopefully you had
a few minutes to be able to, um,
chat to the people in your groups.
Um, so what we're looking at
is this framework that's been
developed by Eric Carter, these
Dimensions of belonging framework.
I, I find this helpful, um,
for initiating conversations
about experiences of belonging.
Like, you know, I've used this
in bible study groups, you know,
to say to people, how do you feel
about your connection to church?
Or, there's lots of different ways that
you can use this or even just to reflect
on your own church practice or, you know,
children's and youth ministry context.
Um, so I think it's a really
helpful starting point for
conversations about belonging.
But let me throw over to you.
How did you find the Belonging
Framework might be new to you?
It might not be new to you.
What are your thoughts on it and is there
anything in looking at it that you think,
ah, this might help me as I'm thinking
about, you know, my own particular
context for children's and youth ministry?
Anyone brave enough to put their
hand up and, uh, share some
of what came up in your group?
Chat with us.
Dylan.
Yeah, go for it.
Guest 3 - male: Oh, um, there we
have some interesting discussion.
Um, uh, I work in a schools context
rather than a church context.
And um, what I find is two big things.
There's actually more of a
disconnect with the staff than with
the students a lot of the time.
Funny enough, I find that students tend
to just connect pretty well, and as we
thought about that more, um, it was sort
of, we worked out that, um, it's because a
lot of the putting kids in a room together
and getting to know each other is kind
of done by the structure of a school.
Ruth: Mm-hmm.
Guest 3 - male: And then when you
bring ministry into that, a lot of that
icebreaking sort of connection is done
by the structure of the school itself.
So it's like that first hurdle's
a bit done, and then what I find
is there's not a lot of individual
sort of people by themselves.
Aside from there.
There are always a few, but it's
not like a big, big, big problem.
Louise: Yeah.
Interesting.
Thanks for sharing, Dylan.
I appreciate those insights.
Mm-hmm.
Um, yeah, that's interesting and, and
I think, I wonder if, um, there's some
important reflections for us too about,
uh, what it means, uh, you know, for
adults to feel that they belong in,
in community context as well, uh, and
whether those are identical issues
for children as they are for adults.
So that's something that I, I think
is absolutely think, you know, worth
thinking about a little bit more actually.
Uh, yeah.
Are there issues similar or different?
How different are they, you know, work,
uh, educational context and they are
from a church context, so there's some
really important questions in there.
So thank you for sharing, Dylan.
Appreciate that.
Okay.
Anyone else?
What are your thoughts on the framework
and how it might sit in your particular
ministry or, or church or work context?
Um, uh, I was talking with Andrew,
um, and he helpfully pointed out that
the visitor had to be active when
they came into a group situation.
Like they had to take
actions to start to belong.
Um, yeah.
And I also thought that, um.
People have to take a risk, like people
who inverted commas belong someone, or
some people have to take a risk and there
are probably risk takers in the group.
Louise: Mm.
Willing to go out to engage
with and involve newcomers.
Louise: Yeah.
And not, not everybody
wants or can do that, but
Louise: yeah,
that's probably a role that some people
play and also that Christians are
unique in believing that everyone's
got a gift from God and that, you
know, which whatever situation or
health status someone has, there's
something they can do to encourage
and support and help other people.
I think Christians are pretty unique
in that instead of like putting people
in a box and well, we shouldn't Right.
And, and saying, you know,
you can only do that.
Or This is what we believe you can do.
Like, that's not what we should do at all.
So,
Louise: yeah.
Thanks so much for sharing your
thoughts and I really appreciate that.
Yeah.
You've said so many really helpful things.
I agree with you.
I think we have a really important
message and so if we're wanting people
to have a sense of belonging, that can
be to all sorts of different things.
But, uh, for us, our great
desire is that, that belonging
is part of a church community.
That they have an understanding
of being gifted by God and the
value that they actually have, um,
as part of Christian community.
Uh, and I really resonate with what you
say there about, um, you know, ability
in terms of chronic health or disability.
As I said, this is the, the lens through
which I originally came to the, the
passage of one Corinthians 12 and thinking
about these topics of belonging from
my own personal experience, uh, I spent
the whole of the year of 2022 in bed.
I was not able to physically
get to church on my own.
Um, but I, uh, I think there is
something really helpful to remember
in the fact that we are still part of
the body of Christ, even though we may
not be able to physically get there.
And that giftedness doesn't
leave us simply because we have
a disability or chronic illness
or we aren't able to be there.
So thinking about what it means for us to
still, um, help people to use their gifts
and be contributing to the community,
even when that might look a little bit
different as it does for other people.
So you've, um, yeah, really given us some
valuable things to think about there.
Narrative.
Thank you.
Anyone else got anything
that they'd like to add?
Guest: Yeah.
Um, I, I was just, I think I'm maybe
still getting my head around it, but
my initial gut reaction was that I feel
that many of the families that I work
with jump to kind of their sense of
belonging is actually just immediately
they need to be loved and needed and
so unsure of this circular motion.
And maybe it's that actually
the dimensions of belonging, you
know, there is an element of the
cultural that the context matters.
Um, but yeah, I think for me I was
just like, oh, like I haven't actually
thought about it that way because
yeah, maybe in my context, yeah,
there's actually an automatic jump
to the end of that kind of circle.
Yeah.
Just something guys thinking through Yeah.
Louise: As, as a good thing or
as a bad thing or, or just a
thing that you've experienced.
Guest: I think maybe a bad thing, I think.
Louise: Yeah.
Guest: Yeah.
Louise: So that deepening sense that you
are wading into a deepening enrichening
sense of relationship is important for
kind of both sides as you're getting
to know people and building trust I
think is part of that process that
happens as you get to know, um, the
people and the community as well.
So maybe you're missing those
steps, um, if you jump all the
way to the end of the circle.
So that, yeah, that's really interesting.
So thinking about if there's a whole
lot of different components, um.
Are they all just there simultaneously
or is this circular, um, motion of
moving into a deepening sense, sense of
relationship and belonging and flourishing
actually a key part of that process?
So that it's really a really important,
uh, insight and thing to reflect on.
That journey I think is actually
important because you think
about complete strangers.
If you're starting at a new church
and you don't know anyone at
all, uh, how do you trust them?
How do they trust you?
Actually, that takes time, doesn't it?
So you want that kind of idea
of a journey that's there.
Thank you, Brony.
I really appreciate that reflection.
Jillian, you've got a digital hand up.
Guest 4?:
Yeah.
Um, we, in our group, we talked about
how, um, this might, using this, um,
framework might provide a really useful
explicit teaching moment, or when
passages like, um, the Corinthians
passage or even James talking about
not showing favoritism, comes up to
be actually able to explicitly teach.
How do we help for other people to
feel included, to take a measurement
with our kids that are in our kids'
church, to say, where do you feel you
belonging is at and how can we shift.
Shift our friends around to feeling
more connected or, um, what do you
think is getting in the way of that?
Just to have, take a bit of a
temperature check, check with the
kids, um, to see where they're at
and, um, yeah, then because culture
changes with each generation, but
wouldn't it be lovely if, if they
actually had an understanding of this?
And we've got a lot of neurodiverse
student kids in our very tiny church.
Yeah.
So we've got a lot of, you know,
we, acceptance of how everybody
is and what they need, but what
does that mean for belonging?
So they might, they might not even
know that we're accommodating them.
They might still feel
Guest: Yeah,
Guest 4?:
they're not being looked after.
But, um, maybe actually verbalizing that
and, and giving opportunity to talk, talk
about it openly might be really useful.
Yeah.
And um, somebody else in our group sort
of talked about also sort of giving the
kids that agency to say, oh, this is a
task you, I can see you're really good at
welcoming and, you know, would you like
to be and wel welcoming to our group?
Or, and having things.
I'll let Sky talk.
She's about the thing that she's said
that she's been doing, which is good.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
So I thought that was really,
yeah, it could be useful tool.
Yeah.
Louise: Yeah.
Thank you so much, Jillian.
I agree.
I, I think sometimes we do a whole lot
of things behind the scenes, but we
actually don't have those conversations
with children and young people about it.
You know, I think, um, safety
is one of those things for me.
I think we are very intent on safety
as adults and keeping safe space,
keeping spaces safe as we should.
But I'm not sure we're always having
conversations with children and
young people about the fact that we
want it to be a safe environment.
And, and so I think making
expl explicit, some of these
discussions could be really helpful.
So maybe not for super little kids,
but for older ones, for teens, I think
asking them, how do you feel about this?
Is this reflective of your experiences?
I actually think it's a
really valuable tool for that.
And, you know, at the end as I kind of,
uh, get to some of the things that I
think I take away, uh, one of the things
that I do talk about is that idea of
agency, that idea of input as being key
to people's experience of belonging.
So I think you're really onto something
there, Jillian, about having those
conversations, making it explicit,
giving people the opportunity
to give their feedback on their
experience and being open to hear it.
If they say, actually I don't feel,
you know, welcomed or valued, and
okay, I'm really sorry to hear
that, but what can we do about that?
Actually, let's have a
conversation about that.
So thank you.
I really appreciate those insights.
Sky, you've been waiting, um, patiently.
Guest 5?:
I'm hoping, I haven't forgotten
what I was gonna say, but um, yeah.
Um, I think one of them was, 'cause
I'm coming in a bit fresh to my role
is working out how much, not just
focusing on, uh, the content and making
sure that we communicate as clearly
as we can, God's word, but also how we
like, uh, welcome people and, and, and
help them to feel like they belong.
And I think that doesn't just
stick with the kids group.
I think we have to do it as a
wider picture with parents as well.
Yeah.
Um, so getting parents to helping
families, like whole families to
connect with one another and support
one another and be interested in one
another because kids do take a lot
of their modeling from their parents.
And if their parents aren't being
inclusive of other people and showing
them how to do that, then they're
probably not gonna be doing it themselves.
I think.
Yeah.
Having times when whole families
are together and we're talking
about the importance of Yeah.
Getting to know each other and
supporting one another and caring
for each other and, you know, showing
interest in one another, I suppose.
Yeah.
Louise: Yeah.
Thank you Scott.
I really appreciate that.
I think you're exactly right.
There's opportunities, um, for us to
model that, but for us to be thinking
intergenerationally, to have people
together as we're talking about these
issues, um, you know, we could all
do with those reminders about what
it means for us to be in the body of
Christ and be connected to one another.
That there is a sense of,
um, uh, interdependence.
You know, I think, uh, even as Christians,
we sometimes get caught up in the notion
of being independent, forgetting that
God has designed us and very clearly
it's spelled out here in one Corinthians
12 that we are interdependent, we are
reliant on God, and we are connected
to one another in the body of Christ.
So if we have opportunities to be
able to share that, yes, with our
children and young people, but
with whole family context as well
across the broader church, then I,
I think that's absolutely fabulous.
If you can make the most of those
opportunities to, um, you know, to
have us consider and reflect on what
this connectedness means, uh, in
light of Paul's image of the body of
Christ, I think that would be fabulous.
So yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing Sky.
I appreciate that.
All right, so before , what we
were doing is having a look at Eric
Carter's Dimensions of Belonging
Framework as a bit of an introduction.
Hopefully it'll, you know, you'll be
able to have a look at that again in your
own time, have a bit of thinking about
what it might be able to do for you in
your own, um, ministry, church context,
how you might be able to use that.
So hopefully you've heard some ideas
already about what you might be
able to do, um, with that as a tool.
So there's no shortage of
information if you wanna dig into
this, uh, a little bit deeper.
So I've given you the initial framework
and I've got you to think about
some of the things that you might
be able to do, um, with that in your
own context from that framework.
What I want you to do now though, is
I want you to have another look at
it, but this time I've got, um, some
different questions for you about this.
So I want you to have a think
about whether you think there's
anything missing from the framework.
Do you think, huh, actually for me,
when I think about belonging, here's
something that I think is really
key and I can't see that there.
Or is there anything that you think
you might change in the framework?
If you were wanting to sit down with
Eric Carter and go, Hey, love this.
It's fabulous.
I think it's great, but here's
my suggestions for a a 2.0
version.
What might you actually, um,
suggest thinking again about your
own ministry context or your own,
um, thoughts, reflections, feelings
about the experiences of belonging?
Uh, Jen, you've got your digital hand up.
Go for it.
Guest 6: We talked a bit about, um,
whether contributing is missing.
Yeah.
So the idea of contributing is more
than, um, just feeling needed, but
it's feeling, um, uh, valuable.
Like it brings into all of that.
So I, I'm not quite sure whether
it's a, an avenue for those things or
whether it's actually one of the things
that you can include, but just that,
In our first chat we talked
a lot about how serving, um,
and being on a serving team
Louise: Yep.
Guest 6: And, um, help with a
lot of that belonging stuff.
Um, yeah.
And the, the difficulties when people
aren't in that space or, um, they're not
able to be on a team for whatever reason,
that we've gotta work hard to find.
Um, yep.
Work hard at giving them a chance
to contribute and belong and stuff.
Anyway, so
Louise: yeah.
Guest 6: Too late for this.
Louise: No, that's great.
Thank you Jenna.
Really appreciate that.
I think that's a really great
question 'cause I don't think that's,
that's reflected in the framework
there about having an active role.
So yeah, thank you so
much for raising that up.
I think it's a really, really
good thing to reflect on.
So if you are using this, wanna
have a chat with people about it,
that's something to bear in mind
as you're having that conversation.
So, thank you.
Uh, Leon, you've got your hands up there.
I'm not sure if I pronounced
your name correctly.
Guest 7: You did very well.
Um, yeah, actually, so, um, we had
two main points that came up in our
conversation with Jillian and Skye.
Um, one of them was actually, we think
probably belongs in the safety quadrant.
Um Yep.
But just, you know, if you have a sense
of belonging, then you'll feel like
comfortable to question really openly.
Mm-hmm.
And I think if you can do that, then
you feel safe and you feel supported.
So, um, and I mentioned that at our
church, like in the, you know, in the
main congregation we'll often have
the opportunity to ask questions, um,
of, of our ministers or our pastors.
Um, you know, and just making sure.
Our, our children are also heard,
uh, which I think they are.
But, you know, just something that perhaps
could be, uh, explicitly stated there.
Um, and then Excellent.
Louise: That's that's great.
Guest 7: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and the other point that Jens
are raised, which is sort of similar
to, to what I was thinking, is that,
you know, a little bit like, you
know, the Paralympics allow, uh,
people that are, you know, have, have
disability to see I can do that, so.
Mm-hmm.
If you see people serving that look like
you or are like you, then, you know, uh,
or you know, just, uh, in the body of the
church, then you feel like you belong.
So, I mean, of course we can't, you
know, pick who comes along, but we
could, you know, think about the
diversity or, you know, uh, making sure
that people are, you know, serving.
And Skye had a really lovely
example of maybe, I don't know if
she wants to tell us about that.
Um, you know, of involving the children
in the service, um, that, you know,
again, would, would help them have
that sense of belonging and importance,
thinking about children particularly.
Um, but yeah, you know, that we
might have members that, uh, and so
yeah, I guess it's the same thing.
If you belong, then
you want to contribute.
Like, it's not a cho and we should
be serving, you know, with joy.
Uh, so, you know, we wanna make sure
that everyone has that opportunity.
Yeah.
Louise: Yeah.
Fabulous.
Thank you so much for those reflections.
I really appreciate what you've raised.
I, I think that these things are,
are all really, really important.
I think having that voice, that
contribution, being safe to be
able to ask, uh, questions, um,
is, is really, really important.
Are we facilitating a safe environment
in the sense that it's safe to ask
a question rather than being worried
that you're gonna be told that's
wrong or you shouldn't ask that.
Um, but, uh, you know, one of the
examples I gave in my subject that I
taught last semester, um, was, I don't
know if anyone's seen the Hannah Gadsby,
you know, comedy special where she talks
about being in class as a child and, and
they were talking about the relationship,
um, between a penguin and a box.
And it was meant to be about prepositions,
but she was trying to get her head around
as a little autistic kid, trying to get
her head around what the relationship
is between the penguin and the box.
And she didn't understand
like, is it, its cousin?
Like how are they related?
And so she talks about how the teacher
kind of made fun of her for not actually
getting that as a concrete thinker.
And I think it, it's a helpful
reminder of sometimes kids ask
questions, um, and we might think
that they're strange and unusual.
Perhaps, but actually it might just
be their genuine way of needing
to try and understand something.
Are they safe to be able
to ask those questions?
And I, so I think that's a
really important, um, point
that you've raised there.
Thank you.
Sky.
Did you wanna give your example?
Seeing, uh, you were thrown
in the, in the deep end there?
Guest 5?:
Um, I was just remembering back to
a previous church that I was at and,
um, the minister was particularly,
um, switched on about including kids.
And so he just a few times or a number
of times, just got all the kids to come
out when he was, uh, serving communion
and just stand at the altar with him.
And every time he had to do something,
he'd got one of the kids to do it,
like, pour the water or, you know,
take a thing off here or whatever.
And, um, yeah, so there were, even
though there wasn't a heap of stuff
for them to do, just the presence of
them at the front really included them.
It was quite a traditional church, so it
was quite unusual for someone to do that.
Um.
Yeah.
Louise: Yeah.
That's really great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you
Al James: so much for sharing.
Louise: Yeah.
Al James: There's a couple of
comments as here as yeah, as well.
Like, I'll throw Dave's in here,
Dave Phillips, um, says, con
contributing puts me in a mind of
the potential of a group heading too
far toward belonging Unhealthfully.
Where you are over-functioning
in a group and feel it won't be
able to continue without you.
Or even to the point where you feel you
can't leave, even if that might be better.
Like that's that tipping over thing, isn't
Louise: it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
So that's a really good point Dave.
Thank you for sharing.
It is about, um, it is about
that balance, isn't it?
It it is about having a
role to play, but, um, but.
Not in a way that you are worried
like you are, you're sick and you
can't come to church, but that's it.
I'm gonna go anyway 'cause it's
not gonna survive without me.
That, um, that that is gonna
become, uh, problematic.
So I think, you know, that trying
to find that balance and I think
there is a balance with all of these
aspects that we are thinking through.
But yeah, really appreciate that Dave.
Thank you very much.
Dunno, was there anything else
you wanted to add Al that had
Al James: come up?
Yeah, there's, there are a couple of,
couple of comments just here about,
um, the, the diagram implying the
idea that there's a sequential nature.
Have you got co comments on whether you
can jump around or if it's, do you know?
Do you know what I
Louise: mean?
Yeah, yeah.
So Eric, Eric Carter would say himself,
it, you know, it's not a strict order,
which is a, I think why in the beginning
they did have it as a kind of order, then
they moved away from that into the pie,
but they've sort of come back to it again.
So he would say it's, you know, it's
not a strict order, it's not definitely
gonna work sequentially like that.
But I think the reason they've moved
back to the, the flow overall, even if
it isn't a strict order, is because of
that deepening sense of relationship.
And I think if we think about the
way relationship works, the way trust
works, that it is something that
happens over time as we build it
and work at it and, uh, and pull our
barriers down and work with others,
that that is an enrichening experience.
So it does take time.
So they've returned to that
journey kind of aspect.
But he would definitely say it's
not like exactly in this order.
Yeah.
Alright, well we've just got
oh, two minutes left apparently.
Um, let me just kind of wrap up
with some final, practical things.
Right now, if I was gonna say
one thing I would like to change
about this is actually that loved
is the final one on this list.
So this is, if I had a criticism, I would
wanna say I actually wanna take loved out
of there and I would really like to put
it as the foundation upon which all the
rest of the belonging framework is built.
So, um, love Eric Carter's work.
Think it's fabulous, so much that
I really, really love about it.
But I would say from a Christian
framework, that love is the thing
that we are commanded to do.
So it's not something that we, that
is about reaching, its zenith of
a relationship, but it's actually
about the foundation upon which all
the rest of that is actually built.
So for me, that's quite key.
So if I was gonna have one little
criticism that's, that's maybe one of it.
We've got some other things.
I'm just gonna skip through these.
Just, uh, time-wise, let
me kind of come back to.
Um, three quickly, uh, three quick
points that we can talk about that
I think draw this stuff together
and help us in this process of
putting these things into action.
So firstly, uh, what can we
do to help with belonging?
Well, it is about building trusting
relationships and connections.
And I think that is definitely explained
for us in the image of the body of Christ.
So the body of Christ shows us that
our relationships to Christ and
one another are actually important.
So we've been designed for relationship
and connection, uh, and rather than just
a byproduct of us being in the same space
as one another in our church buildings,
but that connection and relationship are
key to who we are as God's created people.
And being intentional about the way that
we shape that I think is really important.
So here's some ways that I think
that we can begin to do that.
So, um, I think we can start to help.
Foster relationships, you know, from
the, from day one that a child or a young
person enters into our church community.
Um, and part of the way I think we can do
that is actually expanding the re forms.
This sounds really basic and like, how
is this remotely interesting at all?
But I think we could do a better job of
harnessing the registration forms that
we use for children and young people that
give us more opportunity to ask about
things like likes, dislikes, interests,
hobbies, what is your child good at?
What is your child not good at?
But if we're gonna ask these things on the
form, actually doing something with them.
But I think we can use this
information from families to help start
conversations and building connections.
So rather than just seeing our forms
as this perfunctory thing about taking
information or getting the parents'
phone numbers, that we're actually
using that information gathering process
to learn something about children
and young people that we can then
use to leverage that connection and,
and that relationship that we have.
And I, I think if we're gonna collect
it, we need to do something with it.
One of the ways that we can do something
with that information is giving kids
an opportunity to select a sticker
or put something on their name tags
that is reflective of something that
they're interested in or they like
that serves as a starting point to
build conversation between peers
and between leaders and church.
How do you get to know someone?
Here's an easy way to start to get to
know them 'cause they've got a sticker
of a dinosaur on their name tag.
Hey, tell me about your dinosaur sticker.
What's your favorite dinosaur?
You've got a visual cue that
can help to build conversations.
Um, and for kids who are shy for kids
with anxiety, it does become a good
cue to be able to build conversations.
Another thing I've seen a lot of in
churches in the US when I've been there,
but not as much here, are color coded
systems that you can use on nametags.
Now I've seen this with adults
in academic conferences.
Um, used different forms of this,
but I've also seen this used a lot
with in children's ministry where
um, now this one is, these examples
is from an adult's ministry with.
People with disability.
And so it's got a color coded system
that's not gonna be appropriate
for us in our safe ministry.
But it gives you an idea of
what you might be able to do.
Now they have permanent colors.
So you can have a name tag
that's red that says, actually, I
never want any physical contact.
Or you can have a permanent name
tag that's yellow that says, yep,
I'm up for handshakes or high fives.
The way I've seen this work the
best is that when children and young
people come into your program, they
actually get to select a sticker.
And it might be different each week
depending on actually how they're feeling.
That is a form of communication
that tells you what they're
up for on a particular day.
So today, actually, I don't want
to shake hands or fist bump.
Um, but you know, next week when I'm
feeling a little bit more engaged,
then I'll pick up a yellow sticker
and put that on my name tag today.
So it's a visual cue that gives
you, uh, an understanding into
how someone might be feeling, but
that can lead into conversations.
So what are the ways that we
can help foster belonging?
Through trust, building,
connection, relationship.
So things that can help you build that
relationship and, and opportunities for
connection, I think are really valuable.
So I've seen this a lot in the
US but very little in children's
and youth ministry context here.
Um, part of that information could be
used to make all about me books where
people are, you know, children and young
people get to share, here's what I like.
I've got a pet.
Um, uh, or other things that are
about them that again, you can use
to start to build conversations
and getting to know the children
and young people in your programs.
One of the things that I think is
really, really valuable and you know,
we talk a lot about this in terms of
children, um, and young people with
disability, but I think this is really
important across the board, um, to be
able to have people feel they belong.
They need to feel safe.
And part of safety for a lot
of kids is understanding what's
gonna happen in a program.
Some kids are fine with coming
in, no structure, whatever.
I'm cool with that.
Some kids do not feel safe unless they
have a sense of what are the rules and
the guidelines and the expectations of
what's gonna happen in this space and what
are we actually gonna do in this space.
Uh, otherwise without that information,
kids can be on high alert and so
they're not gonna take in your teaching,
they're not gonna be responsive to that
relationship building if they're ready
to kind of enter into fight or flight.
Because they don't know
what's gonna happen next.
So things like creating safe spaces,
not just physically safe, but
emotionally and psychologically.
Safe spaces through clear expectations
make a big difference to helping
people feel like they belong.
Secondly, creating opportunities for
community engagement and use of gifts.
So this has come up in people's examples.
This is so, so important.
So much literature talks about
belonging is really closely
connected to being able to be on a
roster and participate in a group.
And again, I think we learn about this
from the body of Christ that shows
us that all members of the body have
gifts and have an important role to
play that might look different for
different kids with different abilities.
Um, but we all have an active
role in the body of Christ.
So as it's come up in the examples,
volunteering, being on a roster,
contributing, being visible in the
service, all of those things make a really
big difference to feeling like you belong.
And you know, for some kids with
anxiety, they might not wanna
do a reading, but you know what?
They might be willing to body
double with another kid up the
front while they're doing a reading.
So I think we can think outside
of the box with different
examples of the way that we, um.
Put people on rosters and
get them to be involved.
And finally, uh, I think the
final thing I really wanna
emphasize is choice and voice.
So opportunities for active participation
that allow people to speak up,
to ask questions, to, uh, decline
participating in something if they're
nervous or uncomfortable about it.
The body of Christ shows us that all
members are active and there's no
such thing as an inactive member.
But I think we have to allow for
people to use their choice and
voice as they're contributing
and being part of our services.
When the Child Safe standards came out a
few years ago after the Royal Commission
on Institutional Abuse, you know, we've
reacted very swiftly in creating safe
ministry, um, which has been wonderful.
But I think the safe standard that we
are probably not using the most of is
number two, which is about children
participating in decisions affecting them,
and that children are taken seriously.
So voice, being able to speak
up about things they're worried
about or not sure about having
questions is really important.
And having choice, being given options.
Um.
To have agency to be able to make a
decision about how you participate for
children and young people is really key.
So maybe that's choosing to handshake or
high five on your way into the service.
Maybe for older kids and youth, it's
choosing between whether I read the
passage in the hard copy Bible or
whether I do that in the app because
it's got the dyslexia friendly font
on it and it's easier to enlarge.
Maybe it's those sorts of choices.
Maybe it's a choice between a
quiet game and a noisy game.
But I think allowing children and
young people to engage in ways
that make sense for them is really
important for us to be able to, to
think about fostering belonging.
So hopefully this has, um, been useful for
you in thinking about some ways that you
can continue on your journey in creating,
um, spaces that are places of belonging.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for coming.
Please loiter, if you have a question,
uh, and I'll hand back over to Anne Marie.
Annemarie: Thank you so much, Louise.
Um, I, I think lots of us feel
like there is so much more to be
said and so many more things we'd
like to discuss, but thank you.
I think I need to add.
Thank you, thank you, thank you just
to, um, get more than you did in there.
Um, but I would encourage everybody, um,
please think about at least one thing
that you're gonna take away from tonight
and use and do or think about further.
Um, it would be really great if
this, um, some of the consequences of
tonight were some concrete action that
saw, um, more kids and youth in our
churches feeling like they belong and
they're known and valued and loved.
Amanda but should refer as guest :
Thanks Louise.
Um, I think my question is thinking
about the difference between,
or if there is one, um, between
belonging and church membership.
Um, yeah.
So we often use the language
of members and we use that as
we describe the body of Christ.
Mm-hmm.
We use that to talk about our
children and our young people and
their families and whether they
are a part of our church or not.
Um, how does that work with belonging?
And is that, is, is it a language
difference or is there an actual
difference in concept here as well?
Louise: Yeah.
Yeah, that's really good question.
So my take on this is.
Um, uh, I talked about this
briefly at the beginning.
My take is that Paul is saying
there is a want of a better word,
sorry to use the nerdy theological
term, but there is an ontological
reality of the body of Christ, right?
Like, here is the reality.
We are in Christ, therefore in
the body of Christ and therefore
connected to one another.
So we are members of the body
of Christ, but it, I, I don't
think we always live that out.
Well, in our church communities,
we don't reflect that.
So even though we are in, uh, in
Christ, in the body of Christ, we are
interdependent and relying on that is the
ontological reality of the body of Christ.
I don't think, uh, I think Paul
is writing to say, actually,
you're not living like that.
You know, this is, this is the reality.
Here's the blueprint of how you should
interact and you're not, and I think that
happens for us in our communities as well.
So I, I think it's about trying to break
down a disconnect of you do belong, you
belong to, to God, and you are embedded
in the body of Christ, but how well do we
reflect that in the local representations
of, um, of our church communities?
And so I think that there
can be a disconnect.
So, and I think it's meant to be a,
a model for us to, to actually ensure
that belonging is taking place.
We do belong, but we
don't feel like we belong.
We don't feel like we're embedded,
loved, valued all of the time.
And so it's wanting to close that
gap, to shut down that disconnect
there and have our local faith
communities being better reflections
of what that body of Christ is.
So I think, um, the language of
members is certainly there in one
Corinthians 12, that certainly
we are members of Christ's body.
Um, that is the way that Paul uses it.
And we, you know, Paul does say just
because, um, you're not a hand, doesn't
mean you're not a part of the body.
So, uh, I think there's a temptation
to worry that maybe we aren't part
of the body or that someone else
isn't because their gifts don't
look the way we expect it to.
Um.
Even though they do, but we don't
always live that well, I think in our
everyday communities on the ground.
So I think it's bringing
those things into connection.
Does that make sense?
Does that help answer
that question, Amanda?
Amanda but should refer as guest :
Yeah, that's awesome.
Thanks so much.
Louise: Yeah, no worries
Al James: i feel like that, and,
and I could be totally wrong here,
but it seems like that ontological
reality you talk about there,
like that has the potential to be
extremely comforting for someone Yeah.
Who the lived reality is not
matching the ontological reality.
Louise: Yeah.
Al James: Um, sorry.
Lived, and yet at the same time, we
definitely want our churches to get closer
to reflect that ontological reality.
So it's sort of like,
Louise: yeah, yeah,
Al James: yeah.
I don't know.
I dunno if you got, if you
got reflections on that.
Louise: Yeah, I, I think it can be,
I think it can be hugely encouraging
because I think part of what Paul
says is there's obviously a problem
in Corinth where some people are like,
well, that isn't a very good gift.
You know, like, maybe you're
not part of the body of Christ
if that's all your gift is.
'cause it's not impressive.
There seems to be a question about,
yeah, people questioning their own
place in the body or questioning
other people's place in the body.
And I think Paul is going,
actually, that's not up to you.
That's God's domain.
God has placed all the members
of the body where he wants to be.
Paul says, mm-hmm.
So here is the reality of that.
Um, but yeah, but we don't
always live that out.
So I think it can be comforting, but
I guess the temptation is to go, well,
people are in the body of Christ, so what
does it matter if they don't feel like
they're, they should know that, right?
They should know.
Ruth: They,
Louise: they know that,
that, so it should be fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Whereas actually, I think it's
meant to be, I, well, I talk about
it like it's a blueprint, right?
Like, here is the ontological reality
that should serve as a blueprint
for the way that we should therefore
interact with one another and be
fostering communities of belonging.
So I agree, it should be, it is a
model for us for how we should live
in community as a response to that.
Yeah.
And I think it's, you know, in
the, in the work that I've done in
researching and writing on this passage
as well, you know, one of the things
that I think is important is that.
Um, you know, Paul really talks about
the value of all the members, and I think
that would've been very, and I do have
one very long article where I sort of
unpack this, but very counter-cultural.
You know, there was, um, the, the image
of a body was used in the ancient world
to describe all sorts of community
groups, but it was very hierarchical.
It was very much, um, these
people have important jobs.
You, not so much you dirty
hands and feet over there.
You the other So valuable is important.
That's exactly right.
And I think Paul does something quite
different in, um, in the way that
he talks about the body as everyone
having a valuable role to play.
Even those parts that you don't think have
value are actually integral, indispensable
to the way that the body works.
That's really, really very different
to what was happening in the way a body
metaphor was used in the ancient world.
And so it should challenge us to
think about, well, even the role
of children altogether, right?
That, um, in, in the ancient culture,
children didn't have that much value.
And so to even be thinking about, uh,
it's easy to see kids and young people
as potential members, potentially one day
you'll be an adult and you'll be a member.
Actually, no, if you, you're in
Christ, you're in the body of Christ
and you have gifts and you are
valuable as you are, whatever age
you are, I think that would be very
countercultural to other uses of that
metaphor in the ancient world as well.
Al James: Mm-hmm.
Jen, you look it like you're
itching to ask a question.
Guest 6: Uh, no brain's going a
million miles an hour and all this.
Um, thank you.
It's been really helpful.
Um, also think about the, where the
position of personal responsibility on
the person themselves, which is less for
kids in some ways, um, because they'll,
they could just, well respond to what
we give, but, um, but yeah, I mean, um,
yeah, just thinking about what that, what
that looks like and what that means and
Louise: yeah.
Yep.
And one of the, I I agree with you
and again, if I was going to have
a, another little criticism of
Carter's fabulous work, my other
concern is, um, the uni directional
nature of the belonging framework.
So it's known, it's loved, it's
welcomed as recipients of ministry.
Mm-hmm.
Now I actually think mutuality is
about known and knowing, loved and
loving, welcomed and welcoming.
So I think there is a sense in which, um.
That mutuality and participation
means something multi-directional.
And so, yes, that we
have a responsibility.
It's not just up to everyone else
to help us belong, but we are as a
active agent in that process, that
we have a role in that as well.
And that's gonna be different depending
on different people and their abilities
and all sorts of different factors.
Um, but it's not just that we are passive,
um, participants in that process of,
uh, of that growing sense of belonging.
So yeah, I absolutely agree with you, Jen.
Yeah.
Guest 6: I think there's also, um, the,
the stuff in one Corinthians about,
um, like actually giving children
and uh, and youth and adults, that
the knowledge that they're already
connected, that they're, yeah.
Ready?
Um, yeah, that idea of, um, like we,
we use identity statements with our
kids rather than rules so that we
Louise: Yes.
Yeah.
Guest 6: Through the, our identity
as a group, and then how, how then
should we act towards one another?
Bec Baines: Um, yeah.
Guest 6: Because, um, like rules
can be made up from anywhere, but if
you've got the identity that we are
known, we are created, we are loved.
Um, then yeah, we've had some interesting
conversations with kids when we've had to.
Pull 'em aside and say, Hmm, the
way you treated that person, um,
remember how they're known and they're
loved and they're created and yeah.
And kids have used it also in
how they then see other people
who don't yet know Jesus.
Like, Hmm.
Seeing if you're seeing other people
through God's eyes, you have a very
different perspective on all this stuff.
So,
Louise: yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I, I think that's fabulous.
I, I think it's, it's really important,
um, because it does reshape who
we are, our thinking about who we
are in relation to others, right?
Instead of just that individualistic
approach of, this is about me and God,
but it's a reframing, and that's what
I think Paul is, is so key to Paul's
discussion in one Corinthians, is that
idea of community connection, you know,
ea in Greek, what it means to be kind of
connected, um, and, and part of community.
And so I think those identity statements
sound like a great idea because it's
positioning you not just as an individual,
but as a member of that body, that
relationality is actually really key.
So, yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's really helpful.
Guest 8?:
Yeah, that reflexive piece is really
interesting to change the verbs, um,
so that there's a mutuality, um, coming
at it from a disability lens, there's
a sense of we are the established
community and we're making sure
that these newcomers are coming in.
Yeah.
But to be reminded that, uh, it's possible
to benefit from the people who are
coming in and you're actually richer.
Louise: Yeah.
Guest 8?:
As you become a welcoming community.
Uh, and yeah, that reflexive language is
really helpful in reminding people that
you're not just the established thing,
making the new person feel welcomed.
So, uh, yeah.
Louise: Yeah.
Uh, actually you've reminded me of an
extra article I meant to put up on the,
on the list of things in the Notion Link.
So I'll do that now actually.
So, um, I just have a short online
journal article which exploring
the idea of belonging, and it is,
that's one of the things that I do
talk about there actually, because
it's the language we used to use
in disability was about inclusion.
Uh, and the problem with inclusion
is that it makes it sound like
it is the established group.
It, and it's their job to
kind of allow people in.
Now, in some senses, that is true, that is
right, because if there's no flexibility
in that established group, then it's
very hard for someone to be part of that.
Um, but it, what it has the
capacity to do is render.
Someone with a disability in
particular as a passive recipient
of ministry or a passive, you
know, partaker of, of ministry.
And that I find really problematic.
And that's why there has been this
significant shift in language around
belonging, which gives us more of the
language of independence and mutuality
of everyone has an active role to
play, even if that looks different,
uh, amongst, uh, different people.
Um, that activity and participation
are gonna look different depending
on where you are in your life
and what your capacity is and
all of those sorts of things.
Um, but that it's not, there is a
dominant group with all the power
and you other one who is just that
passive recipient of ministry.
And that's why I do think that language
of welcomed and welcoming, known and
knowing you are not just a passive
recipient of other people's ministry,
which harks back to a very strong
charity model approach to disability.
But actually you have active
agency, uh, in that process as well.
So yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
Annemarie: All right, well
let's wrap it up there.
Um, thank you so much, Louise.
Um, really appreciate all your time
and, and all the extra time as well.
But um, yeah, do feel free to, um, email
Louise with further questions or share
ideas like, yeah, it's really helpful
to hear the conversation and the ideas
that people have bouncing off all this.
We'll see you next time.
Louise: Thanks for having me.
Now.
Well, welcome back to the studio.
That was a long one, but
I think it was worth it.
There were some great things from Louise
there about belonging, and particularly
Eric Carter's work and how he's
contributed to the ways that we can think
more deeply about how belonging actually
impacts the way that we engage with others
and connect well in our local churches.
Speaker 5: One simple thing that
stood out to me that I'll be taking
away is adding a sticker with the
kids' interests to their name tag, or
allowing them to draw something of their
interests on their name tag each week.
I just thought this is such a wonderful
way for adults who might not be
used to engaging with children in
conversation, um, to give them an easy
in into starting that conversation.
Um, my local church in the Wollongong
region is very good at welcoming.
Um, children and they very much see the
children as part of the congregation.
Um, but I just think that this would help
with those connections between the adults
and kids and make that starting point
for connection so easy for all adults.
Speaker 6: The article Louise refers
to towards the end of the think tank is
linked in the show notes and so is her
email if there are any further questions
or queries on this particular topic.
And as always, your ministry
support team are here to support
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Check out YouthWorks
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