Never waste a good crisis

Are you working in a business that's experiencing a crisis? This presents an important career decision for you.

Show Notes

Whether the crisis is caused by the business itself or external factors - a crisis (depending on severity) can present some significant career opportunities. If you're in a squeeze where it's staying on a burning platform or jump into the water, the question becomes: Do you stay or leave the business? There are pros and cons of both options, and that's what we cover in this episode.

Creators and Guests

Host

Mikkel Plaehn

Marketing leader & b2b saas nerd

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

[00:01:23] Mikkel: So the, the thing is we need to kind of need to start from the beginning, I guess mm-hmm. That was terrible. But we, we need to find the start here because I think what everyone will do with such a layup is talk about, well, then you have opportunities. Just go see them. Right. Mm-hmm and it's probably a little too obvious and we're not gonna do that today.

[00:01:46] We're we're gonna do it a little bit different and actually talk a bit about what does it mean for the individual, because you can. Learn and grow quite extensively. If you work in a business that's experiencing a crisis. So let's talk a bit about first this crisis. What do we mean? Do we mean like a financial crisis?

[00:02:05] Mm-hmm or what's what's the, the structure here for the conversation. Yeah.

[00:02:10] Toni: So maybe let's kind of peel the onion back a little bit. I think one piece is, obviously there are a couple of, layouts happening right now. We had a, another piece where we talked a little bit about, you know, why they're happening.

[00:02:22] And so. I think, another angle here is also, there might be some macro trends that are driving everyone to have the same crisis, which is kind of happening right now. And then sometimes there might also just be smaller things. So just you as a company are failing, just you as a team are failing.

[00:02:40] And that then drives. Drives this crisis. And, and really the, the reason why we are calling a never waste a good crisis is, usually when that happens, the willingness to change spikes. Mm. Yeah. That that's, that's kind of the idea here. When, you, as your leadership team or you as a leader or as an individual contributor, when you are encountering a crisis, people will suddenly start listening more and be much more open to.

[00:03:11] Specific changes mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and you know, I mean, you said it, you know, almost in the, in the negative, but, but it does, it does open up a opportunity for you as an individual, which I think is an interesting angle. And surely, and you know, this is not me an egoistic thing. It also opens up opportunities for the company.

[00:03:32] Yeah. Exploring new stuff. and as with every crisis, Everyone will change a little bit and some will change for the worse and some will change for the better, you know, there's the, you, you will have both outcomes regardless.

[00:03:44] Mikkel: No, you know, it's this, classic burning platform case. Right. And you're standing on a burning platform in the middle of the ocean and you're three people there staring down, down, you know, there's large, like a huge gap down to the water and it's ice cold mm-hmm so you can choose to jump.

[00:04:01] Toni: Yep. And take your chances there or stay. with the burning platform, which is all the same people would jump though.

[00:04:07] Mikkel: well, so, so that's the, the point, right? A lot of people will take that plunge and that really signifies trying something new. And there will be some that stay and, burn with a platform. And this is really the fight or flight response. Yes. Which we're gonna get into now, right?

[00:04:22] Toni: Yes. So let's think it through. So, let's just say we stay with this burning platform. For the, for the sake of it, obviously both options are terrible. First of all, it's burning around you. That's not great.

[00:04:35] Yeah, no. And it might burn down to a degree where everyone just falls to the water, right. Or you take the jump right now, and kind of get out safe before that happens. Right. Those are the two. Main logical ways around it. I think the, the interesting part almost is, and maybe there's almost some game theory in here that, you know, maybe we haven't fully explored, but some people will jump and by them leaving, it will make, it will actually exasperate the crisis sometimes.

[00:05:07] Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sometimes when you go through a change like that and if layoffs, sometimes you even. As a CEO, as a CFO, as, as a CEO, you even plan for additional churn attrition to happen in, in, in your employment, in your employees, beyond the layoffs. Right. Because simply, people are seeing this as a bad sign and then they're leaving.

[00:05:30] Yeah. And in, in some cases that then, you know, as I, as I mentioned before, leads to an even worse situation. The problem currently though, is in, in the current crisis that we are having, it's not just one company struggling. It's a lot of them struggling. So really taking the plunge, you know, seems a little bit less.

[00:05:51] Attractive right now, simply because the opportunities around you aren't that flush anymore as they were maybe before. Again, if, if this is not a widespread issue, if this is just a, you know, your company is screwing up, then that's a totally different conversation to a degree because you could jump and people would take you. But in this current situation, it's not fully clear, honestly. Mm.

[00:06:14] Mikkel: And so, I mean, let's, let's focus a bit on the, the two options, right. Because. You talk a bit about people are gonna choose to flight and, and leave, leave the business. And I think you and I talked about, well, in some cases, that's gonna be totally fair

[00:06:27] if you have a responsibility that's no longer relevant given whatever crisis you're facing and you can do the work you need and want to do, then why stay mm-hmm and. So there's very legitimate reasons to, to leave, but I think what we should focus on here is also, there's actually also some very legitimate reasons to stay in the business and fight.

[00:06:51], because there, there is gonna be potential upside for you and, and your future career. you know, I experience a crisis as well in the path of my career. Basically my boss left and my, you know, the other boss went on mater. Then we had a reduction in force meeting. A lot of people got fired, unfortunately.

[00:07:10] And then I was left with, half a marketing team, very shell shocked. And I thought, you know what? I still believe in the business. I still enjoy this work. I'm gonna give it a full on go and actually chose to fight for. And that brought about opportunity. Yes. Which I think we should, we should start digging a bit into.

[00:07:31] Toni: Yes. I think there's one thing that you're saying that is really important, which is I still believe in the business and I think many people that choose to leave the business, basically stop believing in it. And you know, for better and for worse. This situation on whatever side it falls has very strong signaling, you know, for your team, if you decide to leave, but also for your team, if you decide to stay and also for your boss, for your CEO to see like, Hey, this guy or this girl is staying, I, I, I won't forget that so quickly.

[00:08:00] Yeah. Right. So kind of leaving behind the running away part of the equation, really the, the staying part of the equation, right? Why, why should you be, why should you be staying when everything is, potentially going to. you know, not a great place in that, in that scenario. I think one piece is, sure.

[00:08:16] It has a signaling upwards. The other staff, that you really need to consider is as change comes along, opportunity might come along. You might be able to, drive some of that change and, you know, take part of that opportunity. Mm-hmm so let's kind of talk about that in a second. But the other piece is also, putting yourself into your shoes two, three years from now, after all of that changed.

[00:08:38] How, how is everything actually going to be different? Right. and I think once you think through the whole thing, many times, oftentimes it's gonna boil down to, Hey, do you still believe in this thing or not? Right. And, and if you do and you stay, and you work and you figure this out, it can be a pathway to a really cool next trajectory of your career.

[00:08:59] Mikkel: Yeah, I, I agree. You have to really be able to embrace that, that change needs to happen. And you and I talked about that the ground is gonna be more fertile at that point in time as well. So you have a lot of opportunity that starts to appear for you as an individual to actually lean in and start doing the work.

[00:09:18] And like you said, there's gonna be a strong signal you send to the organization, but it's absolutely key. You still, believe in the company trust in what is being built and want like genuinely want to be there. Yeah. And I think if you cannot convince yourself of that, then the choice will be obvious for you, but if you still can actually see those opportunities, then you know, this is a, maybe a couple of times in a lifetime opportunity because you will only have these types of situation, you know, occurring in your career ever so often.

[00:09:50] Yep. So that there is a legitimate opportunity to, to kind of take part of a change, as an individual that also brings about some potential work at the end of the day mm-hmm right. You actually need to go and, and do some things. And you and I talked a bit about, there's gonna be some work that falls outside of your field.

[00:10:11] You wouldn't otherwise do I think we should talk about that for a second? Mm-hmm

[00:10:15] Toni: yes. So I think, with that change That willingness to change. And usually also with the, you know, there will usually be a conversation about, what do we need to stop doing? Yeah. That's usually also what it is.

[00:10:29] And sometimes that is very closely correlated to what do we think isn't working. Yeah. And going down that path, right? Number one, you wanna be helping the. The narrative and the story and the understanding of, you know, what needs to be, let go and why. And then there will be some things that are, you know, staying behind that are maybe being seen, in a new light potentially because of the environment.

[00:10:54] And there might be some things that also are, you know, basically deem not working, but still necessary to, to figure out that might be exasperated by maybe some leader in that team, maybe leaving or something like. and while it might feel uncomfortable for you to go outside your usual job description in that sense, or your seniority level, or even outside of your functional level or silo or whatever, you should seriously consider to raise your hand and say like, Hey, why, why, why don't I do that?

[00:11:26] Mm, why don't I jump in and, and try and, you know, right that ship. And obviously. Very big, opportunity to completely fail and burn and fire right. Yeah. But on the, on the flip side, you know, taking on assignments that, are not only outside of your comfort zone, but also are currently, deemed to be not going well.

[00:11:49] fixing that, getting out of that in the right way, that can catapult you in a completely different direction.

[00:11:55] Mikkel: And you, you kind of experienced that didnt.

[00:11:58] Toni: So great leading question. Mikkel. So, you know, one, one of the examples, and I'm not a hundred percent sure how this storyline perfectly was, again, but the, one of the things that, while some of the change that you described, because we were in the sales company, went up, some of the changes that went on at that time was basically the realization that SDRs outbound was kind of working pretty well.

[00:12:23] Previously, it was like, ah, these guys are on Facebook, by the way, it's a social media management company. Those guys are on Facebook all the time. You know, they're lazy, blah, blah, blah. This's not working out their deals. Aren't converting, obviously read it the analysis and was like, wait a minute. This actually is working pretty nicely.

[00:12:37] And keep in mind, this was 2016 or something like that. Outbound in Europe was still not a big, big, big thing. At least not to the degree that it is now. and, basically the team and I put forward and said like, Hey, you know, this SDR thing is really working well and it actually needs to increase.

[00:12:54] And to a degree because no one else in the company was then able to pick it up. It was like, Hey Tony, why, why don't you take this thing on? Mm. And I didn't take it on directly. Kind of obviously had some, some leadership and management in. But basically, started owning really the, the outbound teams, and really trying to optimize the, you know, the living hell out of that.

[00:13:15] Yeah. Which did pay off over time. Right. And, and it resulted not only in me, getting high fives, so for fixing it and figuring it out and driving it and so forth. But also, Hey Tony, why don't you take on that other thing? Yeah. So it's really, this could have gone a completely different direction by the way.

[00:13:31] Yeah. So there's lots of risk here. But I think, I think some of those risks you will have to take anyway, there's no way around that in your career usually. and really the opportunity that someone comes around and says, well, You junior person who doesn't have a clue about this thing, that isn't going great in a pretty high pressure time, take this on.

[00:13:53] Those are things that usually don't happen if there isn't a crisis around you. Yeah, no,

[00:13:57] Mikkel: I mean, I had had the similar experience. I wouldn't have leveled up career wise if I hadn't experienced that crisis because essentially, you know, with, with all the bosses in marketing, leaving, I could say, Hey, I'd be happy.

[00:14:11] You know, I appreciate the opportunity to take care of the. While there's no one else. Yeah. And, and, you know, the, the, the first step then was really, what are we not gonna do? Because we don't have the same capacity anymore. We know there are some things that needs to happen. And that was the conversations, to be honest with the CEO leadership and then the team to kind of refine that, what are we gonna do?

[00:14:35] Where can we make an impact? And we actually ended up exceeding our targets, which was kind of tremendous considering what had happened. And it was don't get me wrong. It's a really tough period, because like we said earlier in the episode, some people will decide to leave and they're not gonna do it necessarily right away.

[00:14:52] So it's, you know

[00:14:53] Toni: yeah. But also put yourself into, you know, The one person's shoes that, that can't leave when this happens. Yeah. who who's that? Who's that sometimes that's, you know, the CEO, founder guy. Yeah. and in, and in those situations, when then suddenly, you know, the, in this case, the marketing team was crumbling away and there was like, who's gonna, who's gonna take this thing on now.

[00:15:16] Yeah. We're certainly not gonna be able to hire someone off the street. Right. This was not a great, you know, we weren't great prospects for the employment mark at that point. And, and you took it on and you, you know, and you'll fix it and you probably wouldn't have gotten that kind of an opportunity in a, and at this point we were series B scale up.

[00:15:33] To, you know, lead the charge for, for that, that whole marketing team at that point in time. Yeah. Right. And, and I think that, you know, that, that puts in a different spot, obviously with the CEO leadership, obviously. Yeah. And also gives you. A wild ride learning yeah. That you otherwise, you know, I mean, it's

[00:15:50] a thing you will never forget.

[00:15:52] Mikkel: Yeah. When, when you look back at your career and the things and the choices you made, there's gonna be good stuff and bad stuff. And this is certainly, you know, a tough one, but also a good one. And there's a lot of, growing pain in that experience, but you grow from it. And, and I think an important thing to point out is while we're talking about there is an opportunity is it's not that you need to hold anyone at gunpoint.

[00:16:13] You, you. Genuinely ask and suggest that you can help do something, whether it's taking on a team or a project or an area. But I think getting the responsibility is the key mm-hmm and then if you succeed and do well, then everything else will actually follow meaning potentially. So I. Got promoted after that, which, which I was appreciated a lot. But all those things will follow with the work you do.

[00:16:40] Toni: I also think another, another way to look at this is, you know, usually when you're on the series, a series B you know, scale up phase a lot of people will make. Decisions on what kind of role you should take based on your past, based on your CV, you know, has she done it before?

[00:16:57] Has she proven she can, she can do it successfully and so forth when you're in a squeeze like that you don't have the luxury for these kind of things anymore. Yeah. It's at that point, it's like, Hey, who. Who is here. Yeah. Uh, who and who is, you know, out of, out of the team, best capable to do it.

[00:17:11] And you know, what is the best choice to kind of make right now? And, and it levels the playing field to a large degree because, you know, and this kind of back then was also a bit of, you know, for me actually a, a time where, you know, I started to. I started out reporting to the CEO super early on. Yeah.

[00:17:28] Like in, in that company's history. And then we got to a stage where I just couldn't keep up anymore. We, you know, yes. I was trying to grow as fast as I can, but you know, I'm still human. I'm still organically kept to a degree, but the company was scaling exponentially. So, you know, can't, you can't keep up.

[00:17:45] And you shouldn't try to, and, and the right thing is obviously to hire in some more senior folks from the outside. Hey, you know, they can now take over, and keep building this thing in the right direction. And that, that situation also led to, you know, the leadership team reevaluating, whether or not these outside leaders were the right ones, actually at that point mm-hmm and the, the company obviously did stumble a little bit in that, in that, in that approach.

[00:18:12] And it gave, if you will. It gave me the opportunity to catch up with the company because the company was going a little bit slower at that point. Yeah. So I could organically try and catch up, which then eventually led to, yes, me getting more opportunities and so forth, but it's, it's really important to keep in mind that, you know, there are, there are some, some upside, some benefits to the situation that are completely non obvious when you stand there and think like, well, this thing's gonna go belly up by.

[00:18:40] Yeah.

[00:18:41] Mikkel: but I think it's, it's super interesting what you said, because. When everything is going well, I've talked with a lot of people on my team about career growth, right? And specifically a startup and a scale up will grow at a certain pace. And you as an individual need to be able to keep up with that pace, if you wanna progress with it, otherwise the company will be forced to bring in talent or leadership from the outside that fits the level the company has grown to mm-hmm but I think what's never occurred to me until now is there's gonna be points in.

[00:19:13] Where the growth is slower. And this is certainly a point where you then have that opportunity. I, I think again, what we've talked about so far, none of this is gonna work. If you are unable to embrace the change mm-hmm and buy into it, because you said the playing field will be leveled. And sure you might be more talented, but if you are detached at that point, it's gonna be tough for you.

[00:19:39] Even if you get the responsibility then also to succeed, cuz you will not have the motivation. Yeah.

[00:19:44] Toni: And I think one, one last point actually on this year is sure you will. You know, the, the delay, the playing field is a little levered to a degree. you have a bunch of potentially new openings. You should, you know, take the plunge and the risk internally take on your things.

[00:19:58] I think if you can, if you honor in a position and you know, people in revenue, operations, revenue, leaders, might, might be in a position to help assist and drive that change and drive the narrative. One of the things that, I was fortunate enough to be, you know, part of here and, and in that scenario was really.

[00:20:19] Basically building the first revenue model, at that point in time and really realizing, Hey, this is how all of these pieces hang together. Mm. here's optimization potential. Yeah. building all of that, you know? Sure. There are some data, some, causal model, some logic behind all of that stuff.

[00:20:37] But at the end of the day, it's the story, the narrative you derive from that. and then, you know, use that as a basis to try and drive change if you, if you can be part of that, part of the conversation, even better. Yeah. Right. Even better. Because number one, obviously you trust yourself and you think that the change that you're driving, you will, you're buying into that.

[00:20:58] That's great. But also if you're the author or close to, of that narrative, people will instinctively more trust you with some of the decisions being taken later on, on that, on that role as well. Right. So really, sometimes depends a little bit on what kind of position you are, and, and then how you can impact it. But being part of that, narrative building, can be extremely powerful as well.

[00:21:21] Mikkel: So let's talk a bit about what happens after, right. You're gonna have this situation where if either you've left or you've stayed and fought and there's gonna be an outcome and there can really only be, well, there could probably be more, but let's, let's focus on two outcomes.

[00:21:37] Mm-hmm either it's a failure. Yep. Or it's successful. And I think we should end on a high note. So let's start with the failure. Yeah. Right. let, let's start with the failure also for, I think it's important to realize if you choose to buy into the change and embrace it, there is a risk that it's not gonna work out mm-hmm but that doesn't mean you're not gonna leave without anything.

[00:22:01] Toni: No, exactly. So first of all, you are not the CEO in most cases. Ultimately, it's not your fault. If it all goes belly up, you know, that's just important to remember. and that's also how the market will see you and judge you. and by the way, if you're the CEO that goes belly up, then the market will think you are an experienced founder.

[00:22:24] You learn, you made the mistake now. Yeah. and really, at this point, you. Let's just say, this is not, you know, two months or something after let's just say this is a year two after, you were potentially an instrumental part of driving. Some of that change, you were put into positions that you, wouldn't have had access to for the next 10 years in your career.

[00:22:45] And you had to make some really, really tough calls you probably wouldn't have encountered for the next 10 years either. And you'll learn from that. and that it, in the end didn't work out. It's, it's obviously unfortunate, but it doesn't change the fact that you grew in that period immensely.

[00:23:03] And I would even argue there probably wouldn't have been any other place on earth where you could have grown. That fast in that similar period of time. Right. So kind of keep, keep that in mind. And then going out to the, to the market and, talking and trying to find a new job. I think you have a lot of really interesting stories to tell.

[00:23:26] Hmm. And really when, when I interview people, it's, it's really the story that they can tell and, you know, The, the, you know, the war stories, sometimes people say, but you know, the rooms that you weigh in, the decisions that you were part of, and it's very quickly you figure out, is that just someone reciting what happened or is that a first person narrative, where you then clearly here?

[00:23:50] No, wait a minute. That person was part of driving that change. That person was part of making those decisions. And obviously if it didn't go the right way, It's an easy follow up question to do, you know, what do you think went wrong? Right? And then suddenly you get a, a lot of reflections, from someone that deeply thought about it.

[00:24:09] And it's, it's very easy to pick the winners in that point, and it's not gonna be the ones, that were part of the massively successful, business that, that we're kind of, you know, on the sidelines, but it might actually be the ones that, didn't succeed business wise in the. But we are at least in the driver's seat, and are, you know, much more experienced for where they are right now in their career than others would be mm-hmm.

[00:24:31] So I think, this can be a very positive outcome, even though if it isn't one overall for the company and maybe for your, for your warrants and your equity stake that you had. Yeah. Then the other side exploring that, it turns out, well, obviously that's the easy one. Everything is great. Sorry.

[00:24:53] Mikkel: No, I was gonna say pop the champagne, but just feels a bit awkward. We, we survived

[00:24:58] Toni: I think out of this survival usually comes a little bit more than just that. Yeah. You suddenly have a much stronger understanding of your business. Yeah. you had to make some tough calls, what you're gonna cut and what you invest in and, and apparently those calls worked out. Yeah.

[00:25:11] So, you know, a lot more suddenly about the company than you did before. I think if. You were in the position to create and drive the narrative and be part of the change and take on some shitty assignments that you otherwise wouldn't have. And, and the company's doing well. It's really hard to argue.

[00:25:30] For anyone to be like, yeah, well that wasn't really your achievement here. It was luck. Yeah, that was, and by the way, there's luck all over the place. Let's not, let's not forget about that either, but it's, it's really tough for someone to, to try and take that, take that away from you if you will. Mm-hmm, both internally, but also externally.

[00:25:47] And internally you can obviously. You know, when the company's going well again, and you can grow and maybe have more funding and, you know, everything is going in the right direction. It also puts you into a really nice spot to take on more responsibility, either seniority or lateral moves or whatever, whatever you wanna do really, can be extremely powerful.

[00:26:06] Right. yeah,

[00:26:07] Mikkel: I think what's also a really good thing. You'll. No matter, actually the outcome is you'll create some really strong relationships mm-hmm with, with the team that is still there, because everyone is gonna be there for a reason. It's to save the business at the end of the day. And that's, that's where you really start to build trust with one another and admiration and respect for each other.

[00:26:32] And if the company ends up, failing. Then guess what's gonna happen. You're gonna help each other land. The next thing mm-hmm and just that network, people talk a lot about the importance of network. It's not just having a connection on LinkedIn is actually having someone who can help you or you can help for that matter.

[00:26:52] And that is so valuable and something that's gonna stay with you for the rest of the career.

[00:26:57] Toni: Yeah, totally. I think that, you know, in order to build a strong relationship with anyone it's, to. Do some really hard work. And that could be that it is, to play against one another or with one another. and then the third is to have fun together, right?

[00:27:15] Those are the three key ingredients for creating deep bonds and relationships. And in my view, and probably other people have very different use. But this is, this is what it is for me. And, and this certainly, takes usually all those three boxes, right. Regardless how it goes. You will have wins, you will celebrate, you will have all of those opportunities.

[00:27:35] and, that then creates something that is probably lifelong lasting. This will, this will not just be a thing that's over next time. Right. And, I think those, those are potential upsides not to be disregarded. Yeah. Let's just say it like that easily.

[00:27:50] Mikkel: and I think the last point. Whether the outcome is successful or not, you can always choose to leave. Mm-hmm you always have the out, but I at least think this taking on this mindset of either you're gonna embrace the change if you can, if it adds up with your values and what you hope to achieve with your career, or it doesn't, and then you, you leave

[00:28:15] Toni: to a degree you're really in the same position as you were two years before, or one year before when the crisis really hit, you. Are probably gonna be better off. You probably have an, an upside that, that you didn't realize and really making the decision to, you know, leave the burning platform at that point will probably regardless whether, you know, whether not this went great or not, would probably looking backward would be like, ah, that was a, that would've been a stupid idea that wouldn't have been a mistake and I can promise.

[00:28:49] Maybe that promises a strong word here, but if you, you know, were to compare yourselves to the ones that laughed, which I may or may not have done, you will, you will see, that you probably, you know, pulled the longer straw, in that, in that chance of luck. and that is, that is a, there is a good reasoning and, motivated to actually stay and figure this out and, and, and crush it according.