The Impact of the October Budget on the M&A Market with Saul Cohen

Show Notes

Summary

In this conversation, Saul Cohen, owner of Expert Eye, shares his journey from working in corporate finance to supporting small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). He discusses the importance of providing tailored financial advice to entrepreneurs, the impact of personal experiences on his career choices, and the challenges faced by business owners in the current economic climate. The conversation also delves into the implications of recent changes in business taxation, the dynamics of mergers and acquisitions (M&A), and the role of private equity in business sales. Saul emphasizes the need for business owners to plan their exit strategies early and to view their businesses objectively when considering a sale.

Takeaways

• Saul Cohen transitioned from corporate finance to support SMEs.
• Personal experiences can significantly influence career paths.
• Many business owners are unprepared for the sale of their businesses.
• Government policies often overlook the needs of business owners.
• Tax changes can motivate business owners to sell sooner.
• M&A requires a different skill set than standard accountancy.
• Private equity seeks low-risk businesses with strong management.
• Business owners should plan their exit strategies early.
• It's crucial to view your business objectively when selling.
• Building a business provides valuable experience for future acquisitions.

 

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Creators & Guests

Host

Barnaby Cook

What is The Exit Plan: Mergers and Acquisitions for Creative Entrepreneurs?

The Exit Plan is for business owners that are interested in learning more about how to sell their business. Each episode Barnaby Cook interviews someone who has bought or sold a business - either a creative agency, or a production company. The conversation gets under the skin of why they wanted to sell, or were looking to acquire, how the deal was structured, how they agreed upon a valuation and what lessons they learnt along the way.

Let's hit record.

So yeah, if you could start off by introducing yourself.

I am Saul Cohen.

I'm the owner of Expert Eye and we are sort of an &A focused accountancy practice.

I mean, we work with sort of small medium sized businesses.

have a background.

It's a bit of a weird background to get into the SME space.

Initially, I started my career at PwC, loved the work I was doing sort of at big
corporates and then

I suppose just because of a, it was a number of things that happened, but particularly
there was a story around my dad and he was running his own business, got ill, had to sell

very quickly.

And I remember thinking, I just wish he had access to the advice and know how that I had
in sort of that big corporate world.

and you know, finance functions are very different at that sort of size and

There was a big part of me that sort of thought, actually, if I could take some part of
that know-how and knowledge into the SME world, that'd be really cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So talk to me a little bit about setting up the expert eye.

Like what made you leave a corporate job and go and start your own business?

look, the thing is I sort of became an accountant by default.

don't mean that.

I suppose it is a little bit, it's more that.

I was always I'm dyslexic, so was very good at maths.

I am I'm quite creative person.

I love entrepreneurship.

I was very into economics and I was was sort of sit there sitting there thinking, how can
I?

sort of take my love for economics and entrepreneurship and make that a profession.

And actually, accountancy was in my head at the time, the best way to do that, right?

Because what better way to support entrepreneurs build the economy than being their most
trusted advisor?

And so then I did that.

And I didn't really understand what the accounting world looked like and started working
for PWC, which was

fantastic and I loved it for completely different reasons to why I started out as an
accountant.

And I just, I thought it was amazing, know, the value that we were offering our clients.

But the thing that I just personally felt was that we were offering really good value.

We were doing really good work.

It was very interesting.

It was, and it was getting more more interesting the more senior I was getting, which was,
which was great.

But

I just felt so detached from the individual business owner.

You know, you're working for corporates and shareholders and corporate boards and stuff,
is great.

There's a massive value to it.

But I wanted to work with the people who, in my view, change the world, know, that is
entrepreneurs, business owners themselves, and help them look after themselves.

And as I say, that thing with my dad was sort of the trigger that sort of reminded me
actually.

This is why you became an accountant in the first place.

What kind of business did your dad have?

an engineer by trade and sort of he did sort of risk management for people in sort of the
fire, so fire compliance stuff.

yeah, so they sort of went in and did work for insurance, you you do like fire risk
assessment when you get a building and, you know, decide where all your exits and stuff

are gonna be.

And then, you know, just provide sort of all of, you know.

all the little bits and pieces that you need, know, the smoke alarms, the fire detectors,
all of that sort of stuff.

So that's a so-called boring business, but often those businesses are incredibly stable
and very cash-generative and good businesses.

it's funny you say that because before I became an accountant, I was always like the
people who make loads of money come up with really cool fancy ideas and go out and make

money.

And then I became an accountant and realized, actually, do you know what?

The people who make really good money generally are people with boring businesses.

So yes, boring is beautiful in business.

yeah, as you're right, Look, it was never a massive business, but I don't think my dad
wanted it to be.

It was a business that gave us a comfortable enough life that we were happy and my dad had
his house and we didn't really want for anything particularly.

But then we also weren't living that multi-millionaire style lifestyle.

then I just think that we didn't need that.

And I think it served its purpose, absolutely.

But yeah.

So what happened with him and did he find a buyer?

so the truth is I was sort saying to my dad for a while, I remember just thinking, I was
like, listen, know, business is great, but you know, sell up and live a less stressful

life, you don't need this anymore.

And he was thinking it and never really took it seriously.

And then he got ill.

So he's fine now.

But he had he developed prostate cancer.

And very quickly, it sort of escalated from, you have to ask the answer to actually, we
need to operate on you.

And that was like a trigger of my, that was like, well, I need to sell this business.

I physically can't operate it.

and yeah, so he had to find a buyer very quickly and he was just so shocked at what the
business was worth to a third party compared to what it was worth to him.

And you can explain to people all of this stuff about, well, the business is heavily
dependent on you.

Without you, there's no real business.

But it's an emotional thing for people.

And if you haven't been prepped for it, if you've never done it before, it's not something
you're expecting.

And yeah, it was a big shock and you had to swallow that pill.

that was sort of the trigger for me.

was just like, you know,

He'd never been given anything in terms of the way of really good tax advice.

He'd made savings, but he could have made much more tax efficient savings.

He'd never been prepped for the sale of his business.

So he thought that was going to be at one number and it was at a number that was
completely different from that.

And I just came to realize that that's not actually a, unfortunately, that's not a unique
situation.

85 % of businesses don't even sell, never mind the ones that sell for numbers that way
below what people are expecting.

So yeah, I think that that was like, it was a powerful thing for me.

And yeah, I think that really did actually change where my career went.

So you set up the expert eye then.

Was it just you to begin with?

Talk to me a bit about how you pick up clients and the growth of that business.

So, actually, no, it wasn't just me to begin with.

I, I set up the expert eye with originally with the aim of setting up a finance function,
an internal finance function for people.

but I was adamant that I was just not going to go back to doing sort of bookkeeping and
other bits and pieces.

So for my sins, I set up the expert eye with a number of, of freelancers.

that I had doing sort of the day-to-day operation style work.

And my thing was just go out, meet people as much as I can.

Yeah, and that was it.

And actually for me, the first couple of clients was a little bit lucky.

know, was just, everyone I was talking to, I was telling, yeah, I really want to start my
own practice.

This is what I want to do.

This is what we're looking to do.

Eventually I met someone at party and he said, I know two people who would absolutely love
this service.

that was it, set off from there.

So it's interesting because it sounds like you were kind of driven by this idea that
entrepreneurs are the kind of lifeblood of the economy and that you wanted to kind of

support entrepreneurs as much as you could.

There's been a lot of this stuff in the press recently, especially what's your view on the
sort of the working person, the working people sort of comments that Keir Starmer made?

it?

I mean, look, the thing is, is that if I'm entirely honest, I mean, I hate as an
economist, I hate politicians.

Yeah.

And I think that over the past really 10 years, it's not just a Labour conservative thing.

It's cross party.

I think business owners have been really deserted.

I think they were supported in COVID.

you know, there was a lot of support given and you have to give credit where it's due, you
know, even at times probably overly supportive.

But I think afterwards, I think there was, it's almost like governments have forgotten how
to grow economies and that economies grow by supporting businesses to grow rather than by

governments taking control and, you know,

running projects and stuff.

there's a really good reason for that.

And that's because businesses do things far more efficiently than governments ever can.

And this is that to me is, it is a little bit shocking.

know, being someone who's been on the other side as a consultant for a lot of governmental
organizations, been a consultant for, you know, NHS trusts, and etc, etc.

You know,

What politicians will sell you as being the issues is in my experience, very rarely the
actual issues.

I think they're just popular.

It's very popular for Labour to say the NHS is underfunded.

It's very unpopular to say that the NHS is run by really capable people who are fantastic
at their job, but not necessarily capable or fantastic in, you know,

increasing efficiency and working, you know, and being operating in the best way.

and you know, when, when funding is given, just a case in point here, right?

You know, I remember when, funding is given to NHS, it's, it's given on condition that
they employ nurses, which is, you know, it sounds really important, right?

And it is really important.

We need lots of really good high quality nurses in the NHS, but actually sometimes what
you need is really highly skilled admin people in the NHS too, because

admin people are the backbone of any organization.

And I remember sitting there with a senior nurse who was telling me that she spends like a
lot of large point of her, part of her day, you know, looking through the appointments and

doing all this admin stuff.

I remember showing her a V lookup and she told me, you've probably saved me about four or
five days a month.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, and, and it's just because she's trained as

to be a nurse and she's fantastic at what she does, but she's not able to do that because
instead of bringing in admin people, there's a promise of more nurses and the government

has to fulfill its promise of more nurses.

And I think that's that it's that sort of thing that causes that sort of inefficiency.

when to bring bringing it back to your question, when governments sort of say stuff like,
yeah, you know, this working people comment or, you know, for years, really, governments

have been attacking

sort of middle level business owners, small, medium people, the clients that we represent
and taking from those people.

I think it really, it builds a very negative culture.

know, I mean, the budget yesterday just, you know, between the national minimum wage and
the national insurance increases, you know,

Just in those two areas, we've got clients who are maybe 50, 60 people who are going to
have an additional 150,000 pounds worth of cost.

yeah, and that sounds insane, but that really is what the facts are on the ground.

And when you put that in the perspective of over the past 10 years, business owners have
felt deserted.

I think that it puts the UK in a dangerous position.

It's very easy to say, everyone's going to leave and everyone's going to leave and people
are to make everyone with done.

I'm not saying that and I really hope that's not the case.

But, you know, I think a lot of business owners are rightfully fearful of the next four
years, what that's going to look like and potentially beyond that, we've no idea.

And

While I think, you know, we are saying, you know, we do see investors from abroad coming
in to invest in the UK, which is always encouraging.

I think we are also now seeing more and more business owners really considering their
options and thinking, should I move?

Should I move?

And, you know, I personally have worked with a few clients who have shut up shop in the UK
and moved to places like Dubai.

And to be honest, I understand, I understand it and I get it.

And I think that

most people in our space are in the back of their mind thinking is the UK really still the
best place for us?

Yeah.

That's interesting.

mean, the downside of that is then you have to live in Dubai.

what kind of businesses can actually, because in practice, I couldn't do that with my
businesses.

I couldn't just shut them down and open them up in Dubai.

What kind of businesses can actually do that?

I've seen it with professionals, professional consultancies.

To be honest with you, I knew someone who's got, he's got, actually he's not a client,
he's a friend of mine.

He's got an air conditioning business.

He's got, really successful.

It runs in the UK.

It's doing pretty well.

He got it to the point where he can sort of step away.

He is, I think he's probably looking for a buyer for that.

now he's looking at setting up his own business and another business, a different type of
business in Dubai.

Yeah, I think it depends where you are on the entrepreneurial journey as to what your
level of flexibility is.

If you're still running a small business with sort of, let's say, sub 10 employees, then
the business is probably still quite heavily dependent on you for things like culture.

mean, nevermind on terms of operations, but definitely going to be dependent on you for
things like

you know, culture and what have you.

But once you get to sort of like 30, 40, 50 people, your ability to influence that has
already been diminished.

And so, yeah, it depends what people want really.

It's interesting.

With the sort of people comment, I think there was a bit of an overreaction in the
business community because I don't think he actually meant business owners specifically.

And I think there was a bit of a sort of willful misunderstanding of his words.

And look, I get it.

does sort of set a tone, which isn't great.

But in another way, should we really be surprised that

a Labour government are bringing in a load of measures to support workers.

I mean, maybe we're the idiots for sort of expecting, for believing them that they're
pro-business.

look, I think I agree with you.

I do think actually it was blown out of proportion.

But I think the reason why it was blown out of proportion is because people already feel
it.

There's a lot of sensitivity in the business world right now.

And I think it's the fact is it feels like it feels like people are not being heard.

It felt like that already with the conservatives.

Right.

And think that's why the conservatives lost the election.

right, because people felt like they weren't being heard.

And it feels like that it's just more of the same again with labor that people feel like
they're not being heard, particularly in the business community that we represent.

And then when you make a comment like that, and you've been pro-business all your career,
fine, okay, know, whatever you've got things to point to.

But when people feel, when people's sensitivities are up, you're going to start delivering
a whole load of very difficult news.

And then to make a comment like that, think that's It's just a bit of a kick in the nuts
for for a big part of you know, I mean like to say I think the right thing would be to do

would be to say We really respect the business community.

We know that this is really difficult for them.

These are the people you know, it Heap a whole load of praise on them and then and then
and then bring in the measures farm.

Whatever, you know

I'm not here to tell Labour what policies to bring in, know, we're here to deal with them.

yeah, but at least act like you care.

And I think that's what it was.

think it's sensitivities are up and then you make a comment like that.

Well, that's such an easy way to just say we do care.

And instead of doing that, you're like, no, no, actually, we're just going to reinforce
the fact that we don't care.

And I think that's why it was overblown.

So thinking a bit about the budget and the changes to business asset disposal relief,
which everyone still calls entrepreneur tax relief, the stupid name change.

Yeah.

I guess they were trying to make it a bit more sort of clinic.

I don't know what they were trying to do.

they've changed.

Tell me a bit about the changes they've brought in and what impact do you think that's
going to have?

of got rid of it without getting rid of it, haven't they?

Yeah, mean, look, the thing is, on paper, they've kept it.

But the rates are going to be going up.

And eventually, it's basically going to become the same as it's going to be treated in the
same way as capital gains.

So it's, it's at the moment it's 10 % on the first million of a business sale going up to
14 % in April next year, and then 18 % the year after.

And then anything above that will be taxed at capital gains, which will then be 24%.

Yeah.

So there will still be a small differential, in two or three years time, there'll be 18 %
versus 24 % on the first million.

okay, so there is yeah exactly but the lowest rate of of capital gains is obviously at 18
% but then yeah as you said like if you're if you're selling a business for a million

pounds that's immaterial so there is a small differential I'm expecting them to keep going
with it though.

I think that they will they will eventually that they're just gonna keep it up and
eventually it's just gonna taper off and become sort of

put it in line with capital gains.

think anyway capital gains is for labour at least already controversial because in the
labour manifesto or you know for labour voters only rich people pay capital gains.

know what mean?

There is this narrative of that you know and therefore that's why think they're gonna keep
attacking it.

But yeah, as you say, there is a small differential, but the difference is getting much
smaller and it has been shrinking for a while.

If you cast your minds back originally, it was the first 10 million, wasn't it?

Yeah, so yeah, I think eventually it will go and I think that's a shame.

It's an interesting tax incentive, isn't it?

Because it sort of very much impacts kind of small and medium sized businesses.

Because actually, if you're selling a business for 10 million, that it doesn't really
affect it that much how much tax you pay on the first million.

You know what I mean?

So it's very much targeted at people who are hoping to sell their business for between
half a million and a few million quid.

impacts do you think these changes will have on the &A landscape in the next year or so?

Do you think there will be business owners seriously considering their options now,
particularly if they've built up a bit of pot of cash in their business?

think, and this is what I sort of alluded to earlier on, think that you're going to have
sellers who are motivated to sell will now be more motivated to sell.

Yeah, because if they sell today, they're going to pay one rate of tax and if they sell in
six months time, it's going to 4 % more.

Even if it is just an extra 40 grand, it's a material number enough just to sort of
motivate me today.

And I think that's what it is.

I'm not overstating it or understating and then saying, you know, that's it.

There's going to be a mass sell off.

I don't think there is going to be a mass sell off.

This is my personal view.

I don't think anyone's going to sell their business today in case it goes up even more.

know, people are going to run their businesses as they run their businesses.

But I do think for the people who are already thinking, maybe perhaps it's time for me to
sell.

Perhaps it's time to get out the game.

I've been through it, it's getting difficult now.

Again, I don't want to go through another cycle of this, blah, blah, blah.

I think for those people, they're to be more motivated to sell and get those sales done at
a deadline, be it this April or next.

And I think that motivation will drive through more deals just because the sellers that
there are more motivated.

Yeah.

So tell me a bit about, do you kind of have an &A kind of division of your company or
what's the sort of relationship between the day-to-day kind of accountancy practice and

the &A work you do?

bit separate, be honest, deliberately separate because I think the skill set and know-how
is different.

Your standard sort of accountancy and tax people, they're very good at sort of the
day-to-day accounts and putting accounts and sort of tax planning and that sort of stuff.

But then thinking about valuations, structuring a business purchase.

you know, what corporate finance looks like, the, you know, it's a different branch of
accountancy.

And so we do have other people that we work with.

So it's like a sort of separate team for the accounts.

At the moment, most of our clients are buy side.

We are prepping them for exit.

think that's something I heard.

I don't know if you know Paul Avins as a business coach I work with.

I don't know him personally, but I'm familiar with him a bit.

that Paul's he said it a few times and I really subscribe to is that people hold on to
their business for too long.

And you know, actually people people should get into business with the with the headset of
I'm to sell my business in five years.

And I think that when you do that, the value in doing that is twofold.

Number one, you are prepared for an exit when it happens.

And number two, you

even if it doesn't happen, you're always working on taking yourself out of the business
and giving yourself what you really got into business for, which essentially is financial

stability and flexibility.

what's funny is most business owners go into business for that.

if you tell people, ask people like five, 10 years in, do you feel like you have
flexibility?

Even if they have financial stability, I feel like most business owners will tell you, no,
I don't have.

any flexibility of my time.

And the way to achieve that is to keep pulling yourself out and taking a high level view.

So I think that's really valuable.

Most of our acquisitions at the moment are buy side.

We occasionally get sell side.

But the reason why it's sort of occasional is because what we're encouraging our clients
to do is put together something that can be sold to private equity.

Because if you're selling out at 100k profit, 100k EBITDA, the multiples are materially
different from if you're selling out at 1.5 million EBITDA.

And that's really where the change is going to come.

Yeah, so...

So you've got quite a few clients who are doing roll ups.

How are they finding it?

Because I think there are people out there who will make business buying sound really
easy.

And the reality of it is not particularly easy.

if you get finding a really good deal is pretty hard.

So yeah, what's your experience of your clients kind of going out and doing roll-ups?

mean, I think that to be fair, actually, some of the people out there, I've worked with a
couple of them before and they do these roll ups.

I've seen them make this sort 40 acquisitions a year.

It's insane.

I think with anything in life, you can do it, but it comes at a cost.

And I think the cost there is sanity, physical health.

pretty much every potential cost that you can come to.

I think that generally the people that we see doing this most successfully are the people
who are doing it stably and who are understanding the risks at the stage they're at.

I think that there is a maturity that is required to business buying.

People always ask me is it easier to buy a business or start a business and

without question, think it's easier to buy a business than it is to build a business to a
million pounds.

But I think that there is a learning and development on the entrepreneur that happens in
building the business to a million pounds that will make you inherently more successful

once you get to the point where you start making acquisitions.

It doesn't need to come from building a business to a million pounds.

I just think that that is a common way that it comes.

You know, we have seen sort of people who come from executive positions at big corporates
and then come out and made acquisitions and done fantastically well.

But I'm just saying, there is a mature, I think what it is, is it's a maturity and a sort
of a know-how and an understanding of yourself that generally comes either with age or

doing something really difficult or, you know, whatever.

I think that, again, the people who are most successful on the acquisitions.

understand the journey in the business that they're going through and what their business
needs and are making strategic acquisitions to fix the problem.

I think that if you tie yourself to this notion of every deal that I'm going to make is
going to be a no money down deal, what ends up happening is you put pressure on yourself

to only look at deals like that.

And there are some fantastic no money down deals, know, lots of our clients are making
them.

But if you say every deal is going to be no money down and I'm going to make 15
acquisitions this year, well, what ends up happening is you start considering acquisitions

like distressed businesses.

And actually what you want is you don't want distressed businesses.

It's just if you're set up to deal with it, it can be really fantastically lucrative.

But if you're not...

Yeah, generally most business owners that we work with are not looking for distressed
businesses.

They're looking for distressed business owners.

Yeah, materially different.

And I think that's where the pitfalls come.

So people who are most successful, they plan really well.

They don't rush the process.

They just sort of take it on and it's considered.

And they slowly build themselves a bit of a management team.

Yeah.

And I guess a lot of it is sort of being strategic about the types of business that you
buy and thinking about the eventual buyer.

you know, roll up can't just be about scale.

I know the multiples kind of go up and you've got that sort of valuation arbitrage, which
is definitely a big part of it.

But in order to kind of successfully sell a group of businesses, there's got to be

some proper strategic thinking around how that's built and who might buy it.

You mentioned private equity.

What's your view on kind of what private equity are looking for?

I think that we don't often work with business brokers, but there is a there's a sell side
consultant that equals himself and it is fantastic.

His name is Ken Gorman from Transworld.

They are in my view, absolutely the best at what they do.

And he always says is that there is a he calls it like stardust, you know, that the
people, individuals, business owners, there's something special about them.

that key man, they are a star in the world.

they think that actually quite humbly, they don't often don't realize the fact that they
are incredibly unique.

And I think that my view is that private equity are going to be looking to minimize that
as much as possible.

Right.

And the business owner has realized the fact that they are unique and started taking steps
to sort of take themselves out of the business or actually

if anything even better, they are not at all in the business.

And if you think about it, ultimately what private equity want is a really low risk
business that's got a real proof of, yeah, we've got a really good model, a bit really

solid business model.

We've got a very solid backend and we've got a very clean operation.

So processed is driven.

Because what private equity are going to come in and do is they're going to buy it,
they're going to stick someone in to run it, or they're going to make you run it, and

they're going to put heavy pressure on you, basically tripling in size over the next few
years.

That's really interesting.

Do you think that's why so many founders that do sell to private equity end up leaving
about a year later?

100%.

I think that most people who are most founders looking for an exit, very rarely see it
work when they take on when they sell part of it.

I think that most founders looking for an exit are looking for an exit.

You know, they might be happy to do consulting work or come in one day a week, but they
don't want to be.

They definitely don't want a boss.

Absolutely not a boss who is going to put that kind of level of pressure on them.

Where that sort of private equity semi exit works really well is you've got a highly
driven founder who still has that like, you know, innate fire in them and is thinking, I

want to go and take this five million pound business and make it 500 million in the next
five years.

How can I do that?

And, and private equity will be fantastic at doing that.

Otherwise, if you're sending to private equity, sell out.

And like, be really clear, you know, maybe, maybe get a management team in.

I'll get yourself and managing director completely remove yourself from the business.

So when you do sell to private equity, they're not even thinking about keeping you in.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

What about your business?

Would you ever go through a sale process yourself?

I mean, you've got to take your own advice, don't you?

I think I would like to at some point.

I think that, you know, the way I see it is that when you get to a certain point, you
reach sort of the next level in the game and you start operating at a different level.

I'm undecided, honestly, though, what the best route for that is.

If it's a management buyout.

or if it's to private equity or how big do I want the business to get?

I've certainly still got a lot of working years left, but that doesn't necessarily mean
that I want to run an accountancy practice for the rest of my life.

So I don't know, honestly.

Yeah, I was actually saying to someone I work with that I feel like I need to take out.

a couple of days and just sort of think about really what I want for the next five years.

But yeah, absolutely.

Well, I'm actually I've just come off of that.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so it was and it was really good.

But actually the thing that came out for me, because I've gone in this thinking I'm just
not focused enough right now.

What I really want to work on personally in my business right now.

is how do I get myself to be more focused and, you know, get my fire back a little bit.

Yeah, I love what I do.

I'm not, yeah, absolutely love what I do.

But, you know, just get my fire back a little bit, being bit more focused and come in.

And you know, when you come in and you're on a mission and I really wanted to get that
back.

And actually the thing that came out of that was the reason I don't have it is I think
I've got clarity on what I want, but actually I don't have it.

I don't have clarity to the level and detail.

of which you need clarity to be that kind of that kind of level of driven because

I think that's every entrepreneur's journey though, isn't it?

There are times where you're in love with a business and there are times where you fall
out of love with it.

And that's a very common cycle, I think.

absolutely.

And I think it comes when you've sort of reached, you reach the target or even
subconsciously, right?

We set ourselves targets, right?

I want to fix this problem in my business.

I want to get to this level of revenue, whatever it is.

And then when you do that, you subconsciously start saying, well, I've done it now.

Take a bit of a seat back and it's like, well, what's next?

And that's why I think it's, you know, that clarity point, you know, having, it's not just
clarity on what you want.

we all think we've got clarity, I definitely did, I thought I had clarity and what I
wanted.

It's having it to the level of detail that you need it to be able to say this is what I
need to do for the next hundred weeks to get to where I want to be.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

So I guess final question is any sort of tips, advice for business owners who are thinking
about selling their business and what could they be doing to prep for a sale?

this is such a big question.

Okay, well, hopefully something that we've mentioned throughout is is plan it and think
about it early on.

Take advice early on.

Right.

think the biggest thing that I wish I could go back and tell, you know, shake into
business owners is, you know, the change in trajectory between taking advice early on and

planning for your exit and, you know, planning for your retirement when you're in your
thirties.

40s is the difference in the trajectory is completely different.

It's night and day.

So first of all I would say is start thinking about these things as early as you can.

Even if it is just about how are you saving for your retirement, are you saving tax
efficiently, how are you planning for things in your life.

Do that as early in the journey as you

Possibly can absolutely the next thing I would say is then when you think about exiting
the business

Think about, it's really difficult because your business, whether you see it or not, it's
like this for everyone, your business is your baby and you will treat it as such.

people sometimes scoff at that and they're like, no, come on, it's a job.

But it just isn't.

You've built it and the longer you've been in it, the more you've had it.

You've cried with it.

You've suffered, you've been through sleepless nights, cash flow, but whatever it is, you
know, and you've got through it.

And if you've been there for 20 odd years, even more so, right?

Cause you've been through highs and lows with this business and supported your life.

whether you see it or not, there's an absolute love for it.

And when you come to sell the business, you really need to actually be a lot more
calculated and accept that, yes, I've got this love here, but I need to look at this.

Without any bias Would I make this heck what what would I pay for this business if I was
coming in without anything?

What would I pay for this business and you know if you've got a hundred K business that's
heavily Yeah, well, I'd say a million pound.

Let's say you've got a million pound business Making a hundred K worth of profit You might
be taking over 150 K as a business owner You know, it's providing very comfortably for

your life.

If you think that business is worth a million pounds to a third party

then I think you really need to think about this again because it isn't.

And the reason it isn't is because it's dependent on you and there is an inherent risk
factor that you're not accounting for.

And as much as you can work on removing that risk factor, the better.

So the ways in which you do that is you devolve your job and you start taking yourself out
of the business and drawing yourself out of the business and...

you really operating in your business as an investor rather than a managing director.

Yeah and sometimes it needs advice because sometimes the reason why it needs advice is
because you can only do that with a third party looking at your business and giving you

being completely honest with you rather than you you doing it yourself.

Brilliant.

All right.

Well, thank you very much.

No, it's been fantastic.

Thank you.