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Beyond The Message is a weekly podcast that dives deeper into the weekend’s teaching. Released after each Sunday service, it offers thoughtful conversation, added insight, and practical reflection to help our community process and apply what they heard. Whether you're revisiting the message or catching up, this podcast is designed to help you go deeper throughout the week.
Welcome to Beyond the Message, the podcast where we take the weekly message at Christ Community Chapel and bring it into your week. Every week, I sit down with my friends and ministry leaders at CCC to just reflect a little bit, to laugh a little bit, and then to figure out how to live out what we are learning. If you missed this week's message, not a big deal. In the description below, you can check it out, find a link to that, and then come back over and join in on our conversation. And today, I'm joined by Brooks Montgomery, by Lana Chilton, and by Jamie Hewitt. So welcome to you guys. Lana, this is your first time joining us. Hey. Lana, thank you for having me. Welcome, Lana. Come on. Lana, leads our women's ministry here. So just really grateful that you're here and you're taking time with us today. Looking forward to it. Yeah. So to start things off, Pastor Ken talked a little bit about a fun house mirror. Do you guys remember that? Yep. I do. You do? Jamie looks and shrieks. He's like I'm wondering where this is gonna be. So in that spirit, I wanted to ask the question, what is an irrational fear connected to amusement parks? Irrational fear, rational fear, or just really bad experience at an amusement park? I have a really bad experience. You do? To an amusement park. Yeah. It would have been 02/2001, 02/2002. I'm dating my husband who is still an avid roller coaster rider. At that point, I was novice. Novice. Yeah. I was. At this point, I just don't do it. But we went to Six Flags in New Jersey and got in line for the Superman ride and really never looked at the ride. I knew my feet would dangle, but just was talking to my I don't remember if he was a fiancee yet at that point or not. Got on the Superman ride, and if you have any of you ridden it? No. It okay. You obviously, like, go up the hill, come down the hill, and then you are, like, spread eagle over the pavement, like Superman flying through the air. Oh. And I, in all honesty, was screaming, oh, dear Jesus. I'm so sorry. I'm on this thing. Just get me off. I'm so sorry. I'm on this. Oh, sorry. I'm on this. I repeat. I wish yes. And a full lack of wisdom. That I am displaying in this moment. Forgive me. And so yeah. It was an eagle. You're gonna and then You made it. And it's not, like, over, like, anything pretty. It's over, like, asphalt parking lot. So there's people, like, looking up at a local level with this lady. 100% screaming my head off. Yeah. That's hilarious. Yes. I think you led some people to Christ that day. They heard her powerful today. You became a part of their amusement park experience that day. Oh, man. I I don't know what I feel about amusement parks. This is why I've been to Cedar Point four times. First time, first time got sick. Oh. Second time, loved it. Third time, got sick. Fourth time, loved it. So I'm currently on a, once get sick, once go and love it. So I have no clue. Like, I And you went on roller coasters every time. Same thing. So unless it was the food, I, like, I I don't know if I like them or not. Because every single time so I'm currently It's just review. I know. So the next time I go, I should enjoy it. I might just end on that and then never go back. History. I hope so. Okay. Jamie, anything? Yeah. I don't I don't feel like I have any negative experiences. I love amusement parks. I the heat is hard. I feel like it is 10 degrees hotter in every amusement park than the surrounding area. And so when you're just standing in line in the sun, yeah. That's that's my least enjoyable part. Yeah. That's do you that this was not an engaging question for you, Jamie. I'm sorry. Just a bit of sauce. He's a ride warrior. That's and I well, dude, I kind of am the same though with having I love roller coasters. I guess I'll just share this one thing. I went on last time I was at Cedar Point, I'm in my forties, so I was just a few years ago. I was hitting it hard, like, going on all the roller coasters with my one daughter daughter that likes them. It was going great. And then all of a sudden on, like, roller coaster number nine number nine. My stomach just was, like, shut down, and there was, like, pain. And my body was like, oh, you're done. You're done. You are done. And I was like, oh, this is okay. I I get the message. Have you been back since? I haven't. But not because I I would go back, and I would enjoy it and just go like, oh, I should probably be careful. Okay. Okay. Well, we'll get into the fun house mirror in a little bit and maybe talk about what pastor Ken was sharing. But first, let's recap, a little bit of where we're at. We're in week seven. We're in Genesis eighteen and nineteen, and it's the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Ultimately, the story where we see God destroying that city that is a very wicked city. The majority of kind of what Pastor Ken talked about, because that's a passage that spans across chapters and across verses we did not, that were not a part of the message, It starts though with where, you know, God's promise to Abraham and Abraham is sharing, you know, share shares with, God shares with Abraham about what is gonna happen to the city. And Abraham has this back and forth with God where we see him saying, but God, far be it from you that if there's 50 righteous people in that city that you would do this. And then it the number keeps going down, and it does seem like it's a little bit of a negotiation. We'll probably talk about how it was not a negotiation, and then ultimately leading to us seeing a picture of how evil the city was. Pastor Ken talked about that a good bit. And then ultimately, the city was destroyed, and yet God was merciful to Lot and continued to fulfill that promise to Abraham. Ken's points were, it's not what you would expect. It's worse than you would think and not talking a lot about even us as people, as, you know, the sin in our own lives, and then it's better than you can imagine. So So as to not share even more, but, what is a takeaway or what is something that stood out or really impacted you, from the message? I'll jump in. Stacy, I think the thing that stood out to me was a statement Ken made about God's mercy in this story that it had nothing to do with Lot's merit or performance and everything to do with God's mercy and promise. And seeing that in the story, which I'm sure we're gonna talk about, was really powerful in this message for me, and I and I'll share later maybe. But and even in my own life, repeating to myself too, God's mercy in my life has nothing to do with my merit or performance ever. Right. And always only to do with his mercy and his promise. That was a key thing for me. Yeah. I'd say, just the reminder that, our response to God's promise in Jesus is really truly a matter of life and death. There is a seriousness to how you respond to the ultimate promise of Jesus Christ, which makes it really, really good news Yeah. That we have the option of life, but it is not a casual decision that might just enhance your life slightly. It is a it is a really response that I remember Ken said trust in Jesus and live. I love it. And that's true. I was like, oh, that sums up a lot right there Yeah. In in the promise that we have in Jesus and in what, is put before us. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I was thinking with the fun house mirrors and the depiction that Ken gave of how we can miss the gospel by seeing ourselves or God incorrectly. I mean, we would say you know, either we'd say, I don't need the gospel because I'm good enough, and we'd miss God that way, or we'd say, man, I'm so unworthy that God would never want me. I was just thinking in light of the points of the sermon, thinking about the gospel. Like, the gospel is not what we would expect because we want it to be about us. We want it to be about performance. That's so true. Yeah. It is harder to, like, wrap our heads around than we maybe like to think, but it's so much better than we Yeah. Can imagine. So just, like, even the points in the sermon thinking about the gospel and how easy it is to get pulled into this, fun house mere way of thinking that causes us to miss it. Yeah. Well, that that tees up kind of a clip I want us to watch real quick, that kind of wraps up a little bit of what you just shared, Jamie. So why don't we take a minute and watch that? Mercy and a promise. So if you're here, you're thinking too little of yourself. The mercy of God and Jesus speaks to you. If you think too much of yourself, you've forgotten how much you actually need God. The price of the promise speaks to you. Because it's worse. We are worse than we think. But the good news of Jesus is better than we could ever imagine. Mercy for the unrighteous and a promise made and kept through Jesus. So really, that's a great kinda summary of Pastor Ken's last point. And a lot of what you said, Jamie, is kind of, seeing ourselves or where do we see ourselves in that distorted view of being too far gone or too righteous? And I I really do wanna talk about that actually in one of the questions that I wanna ask in a few minutes. So we don't need to get into it too much, but I don't know. If there's anything that hit you with that, jump in. I just even I think, Jamie, you made a great point that it's not only a distorted view of ourselves, but it also could be a distorted view of God. God. For sure. And even just locating, I think, oftentimes, those can be connected. Mhmm. I think, you know, the best way to understand who we are is to look and see clearly the person of Jesus. But I also think it's important to sort of say, might be two places to locate ourselves. Hey. How do we view ourselves? How do we view God? Because both could be distorted in a way. Mhmm. Because you could have an honest view of yourself and just be crushed by that Yeah. If you believe that there's no hope Yeah. For you from God based on believing that he is just waiting to judge and waiting to crush. Yeah. So I remember Sarah said the other week, the most important thing it's a quote. But the most important thing about yourself is how you view God, is what you think about God. And that's so true. So we'll get into that more. But first, this is, can be a somewhat difficult passage, or surprising passage. So I just wanted to ask, you know, when you think about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, is there anything just difficult or unexpected that stood out to you? Yeah. I think what was really unexpected for me is how much of the gospel is there. And I I Cece and I were talking earlier. I I said, you know, I've known this story for a long time. Right? And it's a hard passage. There's a lot of hard in the passage, and I think I very much heard either this story or understood it through a don't be like Lot, and don't be like Sodom, and don't do this, and don't do that. God's judgment is true, and and there is a lot of God's judgment here, but there's so much mercy and seeing the thread of the gospel that God remembered Abraham and spared Lot, and God remembers Jesus and spares me. It was just an unexpected going into the message. You know, I read the passage ahead of time, knew the general direction we were going, but that was just such a unexpected thing to go. It's been there all along. Yeah. I just didn't you just didn't see it. Yeah. I'm thankful for how our pastors approach the teaching of God's word that way, and it's always like a treasure. Like, ah, there's Jesus. Yeah. The obvious thing about this passage is just I think a lot of people can find it difficult to be like, God just wipes out a city. Right? So I think that's an obvious one that stands out there, and maybe let's talk about that a little bit. And That's even yeah. I it's funny. I feel myself getting squeamish in almost two extremes. One being when there's moments where it feels like justice doesn't win. Like, when evil is happening and you kind of ask yourself, like, god, like, what are you doing? Why aren't you not intervening in the situation? Yeah. And then when God does intervene about this poor story of, you know, the city, you can kind of say, oh, God's judgment and wrath, a little squeamish now on this side of the spectrum. Yeah. And it's just I love what you say. It's kind of the the the approach Ken took to sort of say, hey. The reality is is that the wages of sin truly is death. That's horrible news. Right? But the reality is is that you and I can have life because of what Christ has done of receiving that judgment. Right. But I can find myself almost getting squeamish on either end of the day. Have to be true. Have to be true. Like, to be just it. True. And for God to be a just God, he has to hate sin and and and evil in this world. And ultimately, again, we have a hope that everything will be made right in the end. Right? So there's yeah. Yeah. There's a I mean, a fairly well known quote from Narnia talking about Aslan the lion who is a Jesus figure, and he's good, but he's not tame. Yeah. I feel like I see that in this Mhmm. Passage where you see, God holding mercy and patient forbearance and his promise keeping nature Yeah. And grace in one hand and then his justice in the other. And you see both at the at the same time here. And just coming back to the question, you know, that I think is a rational and normal question of saying how could God do how do we make sense of this is and one of the things that's helped me is just asking, like, would we really want to live in a world where evil is not That's right. Rooted out, dealt with. Yeah. So it's like, you know, we have to say, I don't have the answer for that, so I'm gonna trust God's answer, and he alone can hold mercy and justice together in the way that he does. Yeah. I have one other note of something that just stood out to me. It was a little unexpected. I went back and read this passage in Genesis 18, and I backed up a little bit more before Abraham and God have this dialogue. And you see this moment where, the lord was with those the three men were there Mhmm. Where we left, where Sarah was laughing. And, he says to the other men that are there, he says, you know, should I let Abraham in on what's gonna happen with with Sodom and Gomorrah? You know, should I let him in? And then you see this dialogue back and forth with Abraham that he has. And to me, it was just the intimacy and closeness of their relationship and of him saying, hey. I promised that this guy that he's gonna be all the nations are gonna come from him. And just, you know, in prayer even, we would see, you know, Abraham going to the Lord and saying, man, far be it from your character, from who you are Yeah. That righteous people here would perish. And just this back and forth that he has really is about the character of God and him leaning into his closeness to be able to dialogue with God about that Which I love. Was just a really beautiful thing. I love by him pushing into that going, like, this isn't who you are. This isn't who I've known you to be and how by doing that, by talking about the hard things and you said, like, the squeamish in between, like, saying this can't be what you really are about, God. He gets to discover more of what God really is about Yeah. And how we're invited to do that with the hard things and the the things that break our heart Yeah. To bring that to God. Yeah. Yeah. So, moving on, the it was highlighted pastor Ken did a good job of talking about really how awful the city was, Sodom and Gomorrah, and how depraved it was, how evil it was, awful things that were happening there. You see that in even Lot's life and how he was living out life and offering up his daughters to a mob of people. And, really, the the point is for us to even look at ourself and to say, okay, it's worse than we are. Our condition as humans and our sin condition is worse than we could probably think it is in our ability to self justify, to rationalize all of these things. So I guess I just to press into that a little bit, do you see ways that you do that? Or even when you think about our culture and just the way our culture goes that we just, like, drift along with culture, and and our sin nature in small ways or in big ways. You know, I I was thinking about Sodom and this idea of it looking at that and saying, well, at least I'm not like that. Yeah. It's not that bad. As long as kinda I think I will justify myself by comparing myself, you know, I will find something that seems, at least on the surface, to be worse in order to make myself Mhmm. Feel better. Mhmm. So, I mean, I I know that I will often use the, you know, Sodoms of the world possibly to make myself feel better about myself. Yeah. Yeah. And I and and similar to that, it's almost like, being able to, you know, in terms of justifying sin, almost by the resume that you've built up, that it's better than Right. You know, the worst of the worst. You're kind of up a few rungs on the ladder. So if you do mess up, if you do sin, your anger does get let out, if your greed does control you, well, it's okay because I've I've done so many good things in my resume. Yeah. And you're kind of replaying this game of, like, man, if I can just achieve moral positivity, then I'm plus one point of the rung of going up and down. That's kind of how I think. I often it's horrible, but when I sin, when I mess up, I can often just think back to the resume of, man, I'm doing pretty good in a few areas compared to them or that group. Right? I think what stood out to me this week, especially personally, like, I thought about cultural expectations, you know, pushing me into areas of compromise. I I couldn't really put my finger on anything this week, but I could put my finger on my own expectations for my family and those around me and my comfort. There were a number of things this week where even seeking my own comfort or my own expectations caused me to just fall into behaviors that were just ugly and sinful. And so all that to say, I don't have to be in Sodom to be ugly and utterly in need of God's mercy Yeah. Making me new. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the passage, you see, in before Lot leaves the city where the basically, the is the angels are there with them? Okay. So he's there, and there's one verse, and this is just one verse apart from each other. It says, but he lingered. So that meant Lot was, like, told to go. They're like, you gotta get out of here. This is going down. And we wanna save you and your whole family as Abraham's nephew, you know, and he lingers. And then the next verse is they literally grabbed him. It says they seized him and his family and pulled them out of there. And I just thought it's a picture of two things. Number one, us staying in our sin a little bit too long. Right? Us knowing we need to make a change. Us knowing I I knowing I need to change my behaviors, my thought process, my pride, and then at the same point, this picture of still God's mercy in the midst of, so, that's not a guarantee that God's gonna pull us out of our sin. We need to take that action in step. But in that passage, I thought it was a pretty cool picture of going, man, even when Lot lingered, when he was told he needed to change, death is coming. Yeah. They pulled him out. Yeah. And that's the story of the gospel is that, you know, it's God's holiness, God's righteousness Mhmm. And sinful humans. There's not kinda categories of tiers of sinfulness geared a little bit closer to God's holy no. All of us. I think that's the Ken did such a good job of kind of humanizing and really saying, man, we all are citizens of Sodom apart from Jesus. Right. Like, that's kind of the city we are going to inherit apart from Christ. And you and you see both, and I don't know if this is, like, too big a kind of topic to jump into, but you see both of it. You see them, like, pulled even though they were lingering. Mhmm. And then a few verses later, you'll see Lot's wife Yeah. Linger again. Yep. And so I was just thinking No. That's a good point. With Brooks, what you said What happens is a life again. Yeah. This is a cousin. Nobody pulls her out. She just turns into a pillar of salt. A pillar of salt. That's what I remember as a kid this whole past. Yes. Yes. And so just think, like, Brooks' takeaway from the beginning was, like, this is a life and death thing. Yeah. And, yes, God Yeah. In his mercy and in his patience will often and always bear with us better than we deserve Yeah. And we'll be patient. But there also will come a There's a time. Come a day Yeah. Of judgment for all of us, where what we have said and what we believe about Jesus Yeah. What we put our time. And what he, like, you know, that he is our rescue alone. Like, there won't be another chance. Right. Yeah. So Yeah. Somber. But good. Good. Buzz Hills, sorry. No. It's it's scary. Yeah. But we have hope in that. Thing before we wrap up, again, pastor Ken did talk about that fun house mirror and saying, you know, there's two sides of it. I think number one, first of all, most of us, I would say, probably all of us have one level of one distortion or another or a mixture of both of saying I'm too far gone or the other side, I'm too righteous and I don't really need God. And I this is what I would say first to unpack that. I I doubt there's many people that say, I'm too righteous. I don't need God. But let me ask the question, is there an area of your life that you recognize sin in your life and know you need to change? Because if you don't see that, I think you're not recognizing that you see you are seeing yourself as too righteous, if that makes sense. So if that might be the definition of that person that might see themselves in that way. I don't know. Is there one end of that spectrum that you gravitate to or someone in your life that you would wanna give an encouragement to as you think about, those distorted views of either self or of God and a lack of need for God and what has been done through your son Jesus? Yeah. I think that's at times, I was thinking about it. It's like, man, sometimes I feel, like, pride in an inflated view of myself, and I look in a mirror. And other times, I look in a mirror, and I feel like I can hardly see myself because I'm despairing about, man, I messed up. Or and so in some sense, I think that's the very human experience, but the beauty is the cross Yeah. Replies to both of those realities. Right? And at the cross and at Jesus' blood pouring out, there's such immense value but such immense humbling at the cost of our sin. And I think part of even what it means to, have great days, days where you feel like you're crushing it and pride is the temptation, or days where you feel like you're overwhelmed by responsibility, by obligation, by what's going on in your family's social calendar, whatever you feel like you're failing, like, you can all of a sudden find yourself quite small. But Christ has really good news for no matter how you look back on your day. Yeah. I think, with that, it's you have to remember both. There's a tool that was created a long time ago to help instruct people in what it means to be a Christian, and it's called the Heidelberg Catechism. I'm gonna loosely paraphrase because it's long. But the first question is, what is your only comfort in life and in it? And it will say that I'm not my own, that I belong and have been bought both body and soul by my faithful savior Jesus Christ. And then question two says, how do you and I grow in the joy of this comfort? And the answer to that question is that we would acknowledge the depth of our sin and depravity, that we have been rescued That's right. From that Yep. And that we would respond in gratefulness to that. And so I just feel like that's, you know, at the heart of this sermon in so many ways is you and I would would not think that we're better than we are. Right. But we would recognize that the promise is unimaginably better than we ever deserve. Yeah. And that's the good news of the gospel, and we would respond in gratefulness to that. Yeah. Those are those are some really practical ways to move that even out of this if you think about it. It's going, okay. If I do find myself not aware of or not really thankful and so in awe of the fact that Jesus has saved me. Yep. You know, lean into gratefulness. Gratitude is a great litmus test for have the question of whether we've received grace. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. So any other challenges that you would have coming out of this week or ways to encourage somebody that might be tuning in? I think as you guys were talking, I I thought about how in my own life, but certainly, I would think for someone listening, and maybe you're a Christ follower, maybe not yet a Christ follower, but feeling that awareness that, oh, yeah, I have a distorted view. I think too little of myself for God, too little of my own need for God, too much of my own ability Mhmm. Too little of the gospel, whatever. Well, that nudge is actually an invitation to go, okay, let's do business, God. Like, I don't shake it off. Yeah. And don't shake your head at yourself going, oh, I'm I'm messing up again. But use it as an opportunity to say, okay, Let me trust Jesus and live. What does this look like? And so I just think when we can learn to see that nudge of God, as a really good thing And lean into it. And lean into it to become new, yeah. That's what I would encourage somebody with. I'd say I just, my question is this, which city feels like home? And then and this is what I mean. I love that, in eternity, again, the promise that we as Christians, as followers of Jesus, hold with conviction today is that God is making all things new, both in our lives, but in eternity. He's gonna make a new city. And I was just thinking, which city feels like home? And this is why Ezekiel describes Sodom, and I'm just gonna you know, I think we can, Sodom was wicked immensely, but this is how Ezekiel describes the city. Sodom had pride, and this is in Ezekiel 16, Sodom had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but they did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did it an abomination. For me, it's like which city feels like home? The one where you have pride, you're prosperous, you're pretty comfortable? Ultimately, you're living for yourself. Or which are you a member, a citizen of heaven? That's not your home right now here on this earth because you're living not for yourself, not for your glory, but you're considering the needy. You're considering those who, need encouragement, who need you to show kindness to them, ultimately because you're living for God's glory. Yeah. And so even just kind of identifying, Sodom might feel crazy wicked, but, really, it's just a set a place where you're living for yourself, and in which city feels like home now. Good. That's good. Yeah. Like, what would gratitude look like? Like, if we came back like, am I what did I do that was the overflow of my gratitude for God's grace towards me? That's good. And then the only other thing I was just thinking about right now was how at the heart of the third point maybe or a second and third point is your and my propensity to misrepresent ourselves, to not see ourselves clearly. So, like, we're meant to follow Jesus in community with other people. Yeah. And so you might need to ask somebody else who is, you know, rooted in Christ. Hey. Which of these fun house mirrors do you see me, you know, missing it most on? And, you know, invite them and maybe even be willing to say, like, do I trust them and their perspective more than my own because I know how inclined I am to miss it? I don't know. No. That's really good. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to talk about this one, this difficult passage, but also beautiful one where we see the gospel on display again. So thanks, guys. Thanks, Stacy. Thanks so much for tuning in to Beyond the Message. Before you leave, make sure you take a minute to subscribe so you don't miss next week's episode as well or the following weeks after that. And all week long, we have content that we would love for you to take part in. So head on over to the CCC app, to our YouTube channel or our website, where you can find out more content where you can grow right where you are at. We'll see you next week.