Current Vet

PLEASE NOTE: this episode includes discussion of mental health struggles, burnout and suicide. If this isn’t the right time for you to listen, skip the episode and go straight to the resources below.

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In this episode, Dr. Lottie is joined by Gigi Tsontos from Not One More Vet (NOMV) to talk about mental health in veterinary medicine.

They discuss why vet med can be so uniquely challenging, why new grads and students can especially struggle, how to support yourself and what to do if you’re worried about a friend or colleague.

NOMV is a veterinary mental health organisation that provides support services, education and outreach for veterinary professionals, support staff and students. The organisation was founded following the suicide of veterinarian Dr. Sophia Yen, and it has grown into an incredible support network for the whole veterinary community.

If listening to this episode has brought anything up, please do not sit with it alone. Call a friend or a loved one, contact a helpline or use any of the resources below to find support that works for you.

National crisis lines and emergency services are available in many countries and the FindaHelpline website can help you find the right option for you.

Find us on TikTok & Instagram: @veterinaryvista

Timeline:
00:00 Intro
02:19 What is NOMV?
08:34 Vet Med & Mental Health
26:15 What Can I Do For ME?
44:25 What We Can Do For OTHERs
55:15 Recognising a Supportive Environment
57:29 Emergency Situations
01:03:06 Quick Questions
01:05:51 Outro


Links and Resources
Email: vmhs@nomv.org

Creators and Guests

Host
Dr. Lottie Wilkinson
Creator and host of the Current Vet podcast

What is Current Vet?

The podcast that makes veterinary medicine simple.

In each episode, Dr. Lottie breaks down clinical conditions, cases, and concepts across species, focusing on pathophysiology, decision-making, diagnostics, and what actually matters in practice. It’s the kind of context that makes your knowledge finally click.

Every month, we’ll also have honest conversations with guests about the incredible variety of veterinary medicine, what you can do with a vet degree and how to think bigger about your career.

Whether you’re cramming for exams or looking for a soundtrack for your dog walk, Current Vet will make veterinary medicine simple

Intro

[00:00:00]

Hello. Hello and welcome back to Current Vet. This is the podcast that makes veterinary medicine simple. I'm your host, Dr. Lotti, and for our May interview episode we're talking about mental health in Vet Med. I think we all know that mental health is something that vets are quite known to struggle with, and it's likely that a lot of you listening will have experienced difficulties yourselves, or you have a friend or a colleague that has gone through a challenging time.

So today we're gonna talk all about those different things. I'm a massive believer in being really open about our mental health and talking, making sure there isn't like a really taboo topic. So. I am joined by Gigi Santos, the executive director of Not One More Vet, which is an organization that works to support the mental health and wellbeing of the whole veterinary community.[00:01:00]

So in this episode, we're gonna discuss the biggest challenges that we face with our mental health in Vet Med, why it's such a massive issue in this profession, different actions that we can take to help ourselves or those around us. And then of course, we're gonna give you a few resources, suggestions, some services that you could use if you or anyone you know is struggling.

Before we get into it, I do wanna say though, that we're gonna be discussing, obviously, mental health struggles, potentially quite challenging topics in this episode. So please, if you aren't in the right head space. To listen to this right now, then feel free to come back to it at any point or don't listen at all and just go straight to the show notes and find some resources that can help you.

So just please don't struggle on your own. But otherwise, I am really looking forward to getting into this episode and wanna say a massive welcome to you, Gigi, and thank you so much for being here.

Yeah Thank you Lottie and I [00:02:00] really appreciate that you gave that precursor to the day because it's very important to make sure everybody listening has the opportunity to take care of themselves and just come back or like you said not but always look for resources and so thank you for doing that

Yeah,

excited to be here with current vets so thanks so much

What is NOMV?

thank you. Well, why don't you start by giving us like a bit of an overview of not one more vet and all the work that you guys do.

Absolutely So not one more vet was started by a group of veterinarians in in 2014 after the unfortunate death by suicide of a a well-known veterinarian named Dr Sophia Yen Uh that
That happened in October and at the the beginning of that month,14 1 of one of her former
Dr Nicole MacArthur said you know I'd like a

I'd like a place where I can
Talk to
talk to police about what a
[00:03:00] what's going on in the industry and just you know a place to to connect And so she started a Facebook group kind of easy back
back then
a a space where could invite vets and they could
they,
their
their friends
come together
together
Hey this is what's
going on
support each
each other
figure
figure out.
And So
that just
on And and so they knew
So
three
a non-government organization stationed in the us but available worldwide to anyone who was in need in the veterinary industry And they
They really wanted,
sure that it was for the entire industry not just
yeah,
not just
just
not just students support staff
staff, everybody. And so,
Uh
uh, in 2020 they hired their fortune
and
really
started to look [00:04:00] at
peer
peer support.
is where we
Where we started with the Safeway group.
They
They wanted to add to that and train people on how to be good peer support.

right

Right? If, yeah,
if you
if you don't know how to talk to someone outside.
Um and so we
So we added in
our
our life program, which is
asynchronous
been online
peer support
peer work program
Where
where you're connected with
or
or texts or whatever you are.
and that is part of what helps you
You to
connect
someone in a
connects with
with you. And
trained We
we also have
our veterinary mental health support So different
resources
education.
So
So we're not being
support is key
right?
need
We know that the people that are around us
we can reach
reach out to, that we can
with
with support,
both [00:05:00] as a
as a peer, as a colleague, as a friend, and that we can give that back.
And so
really
really a key area,
also
includes
We pride
pride ourselves on creating educational materials, both webinars,
podcasts things
things that
Are
are available to the community so they can learn.
And uh
uh, also share. Share.
And then
And then also,
have what we call support grants and emergency grants that help

right.

basic needs of our team So we really work internationally We have uh individuals from 33 countries associated with NVI at this moment and participate in various arenas So sharing that
that educational material.
sure
Sure. That people are aware
of our mission and just
and getting out there.
letting everyone have a discussion about what's going on in the industry

Yeah. That's amazing. And what's your role within that [00:06:00] organization as executive director?

So I am sort of the lead face of Novi I help run with the strategy looking at where we can go what we can do making sure we can cover our expenses to keep our our resources free to the community And so I have a team of seven other employees and a group of many many volunteers who help us do that But I um I'm lucky enough to lead a great group of people who really do the nuts and bolts of what we do and and making sure our materials and stuff are available to the community so

Yeah. And it's, I think it's the kind of origin story of not one of Wet and how it was founded is,

mm-hmm

I don't wanna say it's common in Vet Med, but I think a lot of professionals, whether you're a surgeon, a doctor, a tech, a student, a lot of people in this profession [00:07:00] either know someone or know of someone in that position.

So yeah, I think this work is incredibly important. And having people that, having that peer support group with people that can relate to you and are directly in the same position as you is really key to that.

I would agree Yeah I don't know anyone in the industry who doesn't know of someone or knows someone who's either um unfortunately died by suicide or has considered suicide It doesn't mean that they end up there And I think there's a lot of prevention work that we can do And I think what I've seen uh from Nabi and what I hear about the last years of work in this field is that The conversations are changing You're having us on the podcast because you want people to be able to talk more freely and openly And you started [00:08:00] out the the this morning with us saying Hey uh I wanna be open And so that message is definitely resonating And I think prevention is key Let's make sure people know they're not alone that they have resources and that people have experiences challenges and overcome them And so let's focus on that Let's get you what you need to survive and thrive And not only that but let's change the systems in which we work so that they support that as well

Vet Med and Mental Health

And knowing that it is possible and the people other people are in your position is, yeah, I think a really positive perspective. But why is VetMed such a bad profession for mental health?

I wouldn't say it's a bad profession for mental health I would say that it's a challenging profession on [00:09:00] so many different inputs that you all know about but some of them are basic So you are the only medical profession in which you have to talk about the financial responsibility of the healthcare of an animal with the owner of that animal And that's a tough conversation I can't imagine speaking to my physician about how much my treatment costs and still being able to think through all my treatment Right

Yeah.

that little space between that's one thing I think historically individuals who InterVet med they love animals they love the science they love the work not necessarily Let's say quote people people they're not necessarily always the most outgoing or the people who are the most comfortable uh engaging with other people It doesn't mean that they can't and they and they don't but they they typically come into this field because of their love of [00:10:00] the the work and the knowledge And and we found that a lot of people in Vet Med are Maybe are experiencing NeuroD divergencies So they may have different ways of interacting and coping as well as a lot of them a lot

A lot of people,
in vet med no
no matter what.
of it they're overachievers They wanna succeed they wanna do well And so that puts a lot of pressure on you as an individual as your team the whole bit And the financial responsibility vet Med as far as look if you're a vet you've spent a lot to go to school No matter where you live in the world you have to to to take care of that You have to take care of your family You have to take care of the setting in which you're in And there's just so much more to it these days So I think it's a challenging field [00:11:00] that If we put a lot of inputs into and think about what supports need to happen we can really create a sustainable system for veterinary team members to work in that really promotes mental health and wellbeing right

Yeah.

it takes an effort in that kind of system change along with individuals getting skills and having support from one another and learning how to cope and all of the things that are there

Yeah. So you said before that obviously like kind of the perspective is changing and I think in why does society as well, people are becoming a lot more, , open and accepting of mental health and poor mental health and it being seen as something that is just as important as your physical [00:12:00] health. Have you seen the.

I guess rates or severity of these kind of things happening in Vet Med decrease in the last few years as that has become better

Sure Sure So as far as studies and information on what's happening in Vet Med Merck Animal Health has great studies on the over time what's been going on in in vet Med and I think that conversation of opening up has led to a better space in vet med Right So just it's like anything once you accept it and start talking about it it changes the dynamic So yes we've seen some some improvement I think we're still far away from perfect but also
also.

Right So humans in general have had a lot to cope with over the last several years Right We we had COVID we have political changes [00:13:00] and and unrest and climate and just so many things going on And so We have seen more people talking about mental health and wellbeing We've seen more access to resources which is how you help people Help people right and so yeah I think we've seen some changes We don't have good rates of by suicide or all of those things We do see burnout as an issue we do see compassion fatigue as an issue but I also think that we are looking at prevention and and to implement plans that help the community before it becomes

Yeah.

significant

Yeah.

do see I do think we're in a we're in an upward trend and I'm really excited to be a part of that for

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You touched just mentioned burnout and compassion fatigue.

sure

burnout's definitely one of those things [00:14:00] that people, I don't wanna say like band about a lot, uh, but it's spoken about a lot and I think it'd be good to understand what burnout actually is

You know when I think of burnout it's it's something that happens sort of over time and and an extension of of stressors that kind of compound over time And This is when you start to feel maybe not as excited about the work and

Yeah.

it's harder for you to be kind of happy in the moment or or if you start to feel like you're coming to work and it's just Blah those are kinds of signs of burnout Maybe you're you aren't yourself you don't feel like you're showing up with a happy face and things like that And so burnout sort of happens over time It's

Right.

that of builds and it's something that [00:15:00] once you start to recognize it it's showing that you need to get back into that self-care and think about what is it that I can do What is it that makes me happy What do I enjoy how can I take care of myself And also how can I ask my workplace to help me take care of myself

yeah.

You know burnout typically is pretty severe so it's your emotional and mental you're exhausted right you're not managing your stress over time and it's often because of those workplace replications of things So,

Right, you often at that time become detached from the workplace or cynical like this is never gonna get better Why am I here you feel often less accomplished

Right,

you feel you know why am I even bothering Kind of those kinds of

right.

come with burnout

Okay.

yeah

And compassion fatigue. That's [00:16:00] kind of what it says on the 10 really, isn't it? It's like you have so much emotional expenditure as a vet and you have to relate to people and be able to respond to people's emotions and body language and be constantly alert to those feelings and and thoughts and responding to that and being in that state all the time becomes tiring, essentially.

Hundred percent It becomes tiring And it's also It it's almost like having mini traumas over time right So

Right.

fatigue people care about what they're doing like I said in the beginning and you said people enjoy they come into this field because they wanna help and they want to do

Yeah.

and so when you have kind of traumatic small events over time and that starts to become more of emotional toll on you [00:17:00] things add up And then we see it in nurses we see it in other healthcare professionals too right When you're caring for others at such a deep rate and are happening on and on it it it changes the way you feel about your work and even yourself And so yeah it definitely the two are often very much Combine compassion fatigue and and burnout they have connection points that people really uh keep in keep keep at the forefront of what they're doing so

Yeah. Are there certain points in a vet career where you see these signs or mental health issues really peak? So like, I don't know if you are final year vet student for example, and you've got all your big exams and things like that. Is, are there points in the career where it really peaks?

Well you know [00:18:00] everyone is very different We're all unique humans But

Yeah.

would say the end of vet school is definitely a peak Right You guys know you're you're working towards all of these exams The exams are challenging You have you're working yourself more than you have probably and that and that is a time we we're seeing different rates with with different people I think we are seeing just anecdotally at nvi right now that we're getting a lot of calls from new vets We're getting a lot of calls from from individuals who are just getting into the field and we don't know what the reason behind that is but think about it if they were in vet school starting through COVID getting different kinds of lessons things like that I think getting into the field then is also another huge transition that you need a lot of support And then we're seeing you know mid career vets saying Hey like what am I [00:19:00] doing Like I've been

Yeah.

Like what what can I do Should I be doing this Are there other things I can do And considering their options within and without and outside of the field as well so those are two areas I think there are probably statistics in say the Merck study on some of that that tells you a little bit about the transitions But I I think just as humans any transition time

Yeah.

time when you hit a bit of a plateau can be a time when you experience more burnout more mental health concerns maybe when things are changing in the world too it

Yeah,

And so so right now you know those are those

those are.

that that we see a lot We have a program called Veterinary Mental Health Support they're professionally facilitated peer support in individual sessions for processing and psychoeducation And in those groups [00:20:00] we're hearing a lot from those two types of people but but intermittently through from others And I think at different times we were just talking about this during COVID we needed a lot of groups People wanted to connect right They wanted to be online and talk to people

Yeah,

now we're seeing a little bit more request for I just want a one-on-one so I can just talk it through with someone Right And

yeah,

it's also kind of those signs that make a big difference I

yeah, yeah. I graduated or I actually started uni in 2020 in COVID year,

Oh

so, mm. I never had a normal lecture.

Yeah

I went straight into uni and you know, everything obviously, I dunno what the exact situation was in the US 'cause I

Right

taught in the uk, but. You know, we had the two meter rule and you weren't [00:21:00] allowed within two meters of people and

everyone had to have a face mask and not only a face mask, but we all had to wear a visor if we were in person as well.

And the only in-person things we had were a lab practicals or a animal husbandry, practicals.

we saw each other for one or two hours a week. And you know, other than basically my course mates that I happen to meet in these one to two hours a week and my housemates that I didn't choose because I was put into holes.

Right

I got on very well with them, but they were literally the only people I met that year. Because
weren't allowed out. We were in lockdown, couldn't do anything. And even that like couple of hours a week was, like an exception in the uni because we had a, we had a professional, practical based degree that required [00:22:00] in-person time.

No one else had that unless you were doing a, a practical requirement degree. And yeah, we kind of ended up being, you know, when we got to end of second year, third year when we were back in, in-person lectures, we had a really odd situation where basically no one wanted to answer questions in lectures.

And it's, you know, nothing against my peers, but. We, we'd spent two years on the other side of a screen basically with everything muted. And you're like, you know, sitting on your sofa in your pajamas with a coffee, and now you're suddenly in a lecture theater and the lecturer's like, answer all these questions.

No one wants to put their hand up in a room of 200 people because we've spent two years, you know, kind of on your own, sat on a sofa, not really interacting, and no one, no one wants to do it. So, yeah, I'm, I'm really not surprised the new grads graduating in [00:23:00] from that experience are, uh, finding it a lot.

Finding yeah finding it challenging and just you know I think uni in in the UK wasn't much different than here or

Yeah.

from what I'm hearing You know people were even you know even young students people who so think about it If you were in your your primary school time during that and now you're coming into vet med you you kind of experienced this time in which interactions with others was very limited And and so you're you're also kind of learning that as well So the people who were just a little bit behind but shows that as they also are experiencing you know a completely different thing than someone my age who who had full-time in-person school throughout all of their unit you know you know so and then um just the the the type of people who sometimes [00:24:00] hit Vet Med like like I said is we we find that a high population are people who maybe are less less comfortable in certain human interactions Not that they're not great at em and at times but they they're just maybe more introverted or maybe people who have different ways of thinking or you know think about going into this practice because animals are so amazing and the

Yeah,

and all of the things you get to do and not thinking or knowing but

but not

understanding that part of it is that human interaction which changes the dynamic right And so like you many of many people have come in and had these experience and even vet teams who were working during COVID you know here my own vet I could not take my animal inside Like you know I had to give them my animal to [00:25:00] take care of on my behalf which You know is a whole nother thing And they had to deal with that

Yeah.

And so there's just they we've been through a lot And then now in 20 26 20 25 20 24 we've been dealing with political unrest We've been dealing with a world that's changing We've been dealing with different kind of political system throughout the world where we are learning different things where where people are being Challenged to live differently Um and and and those things are impacting veterinarians just like they are the rest of the human race And those team members are dealing with that too So just we've had a lot going on in the last

yeah.

years And so I'm super proud of the human race that we're talking about mental health and wellbeing also that that we're thinking about what we can do systematically not [00:26:00] just on the the individual individuals can do what they can do but they need the places that they in the schools they learn

Yeah.

the communities to to give them some support as well and to make that a priority

What Can I Do For ME?

Let's start with ourselves. What can we do to help ourselves as an individual? Say, I am really struggling as a new grad. I've called you up and I'm like, you know, I, I'm just finding it really difficult. I'm finding it overwhelming. I haven't hit, you know, the burnout point yet, but I think it's getting there.

What are some things that I could start implementing?

Absolutely Well first call whenever you want before you feel bad Start the calls Like call whenever you we're available Even if you don't feel like the stress is is there let's let's start with you know just when things are going well it's okay to ask for for someone to talk[00:27:00]

Yeah.

what what you can do for. For yourself like individ as an individual is build your community So we talked about how during your vet school it was hard to build a bigger community because you only had access to certain people

Yeah.

ways to build your community What do you enjoy participate in those things Um so this is just individual Like if I am Gigi Santos sitting here thinking about what makes me happy what makes me happy what do I what do I enjoy Put those inputs into your life ask for help even if you don't feel like you need it It's okay to say like Hey I could use some somebody to talk through Like things are a little awkward and I'm trying to figure things out or I'm feeling like I'm not as happy about work so I'd love to hear what other people do. So asking for that help and I can go through our programs Uh our lifeboat program is completely anonymous and asynchronous so you can you can reach out and nobody will know [00:28:00] it's you. You don't even use your real name. You can you know you can have people talking to you who've experienced what you're experiencing give you some tips and things

Yeah.

veterinary mental health support that is live so you can chat with someone about you know ways to do that for yourself Like if you're having trouble thinking you know I've been in my life and I don't know about you Lottie but sometimes I'm like what do I like What You know
You know, and I'm trying, that out. So having somebody else help me process that has been helpful think about therapy counseling therapy as a way to Preempt something versus always something

yeah.

right Take care of yourself And I'm not talking just like self care take a bath I'm saying take care of yourself Think about what makes you feel good and do that So healthy um if you love to travel make it part of your schedule if you are an avid runner [00:29:00] bring that into your life If you like drama do that community that you build by doing those things you love will help you through the hard times

Yeah.

as individuals those are some of the things you can do right and I think all of our services are available to you there's mentoring programs out there I've found in my life that having a mentor someone that I look up to that I can kind of bounce things off has helped me as well So things like that make a big difference you know manage your stress Like if you find you're getting stressed find ways that help you With that stress in in May NVI has what's called Race Around the World It's an online program where we get people from around the world coming together and sharing information about movement that they're doing during the month to help themselves feel better But we're also [00:30:00] sharing tons of resources And so really amazing to see people in the UK talking about you know running or jogging in London during the rain in London or something

Yeah.

somebody somebody else like doing a big swim or someone Who who practices yoga Doing that and just sharing it it gives you a lot of great ideas And so becoming a part of something like that can also give you a really nice way to see what's out there and connect and build community So that's huge to me I think building community is key

Yeah. No, I definitely agree. Well, you spoke a little bit about therapy.

Mm-hmm

something that I have done before myself, um, through my university,

Mm-hmm

you know, now I've graduated. I, I'm not yet working [00:31:00] and I can't afford traditional therapies. So what are some other options a, around that area that I could go for?

Absolutely Well for through nvi we have free veterinary mental health support So those are individual and group sessions that are they're not therapy but they're talk sessions So you're processing it's even kind of psychoeducation So you can bring a topic and walk through it with that person and that's free to you you you sign up and you don't have to pay a dime

So that's one that's one thing in other areas they have groups that kind of do small get togethers and things like that But if you can't afford therapy right now I highly recommend our veterinary mental health support program And that's easy to reach So if you go to nvi.org you can look it up but you can also email VM [00:32:00] MHS at nobi.org and you can get us and that's available to anyone We have people all over the world doing it So please join us in that So

Yeah, no, I'll put the link for those in the show notes. So if anyone wants to check them out, then they, they'll be down there. What if in some situations, like obviously we've spoken that vet med's particularly stressful and challenging, but a lot of people don't have the option to take a break from work or switch their priorities potentially.

So what are some kind of things that I could do if, you know, or if I had exams coming up, it's like, I know I need to prioritize myself, but I actually can't not revise and I can't not take my exams so. How can we balance the two and prioritize ourselves, but still do what we need to do?

Yeah so so when you're thinking [00:33:00] about exams or like a particularly busy time or there's just a lot going on I think it's small things really tiny inputs So I mean you you're gonna laugh at me but even when you're stressed having a glass of water can really change the way your body feels and decrease your stress you know your the way that your body's feeling So to me it doesn't have to be big things So if

Right?

five minutes here five minutes there If it's a phone call with a friend if it's you know I'm gonna go walk and get a cup of coffee instead of sitting in my house doing the same old thing Trying to study little make a big difference So changing your environment one of the

Yeah.

biggest things that people can do especially when they're stressed is giving you know just getting A different environment So walking outside even if it's pouring rain just [00:34:00] giving yourself a few minutes or if other things could be like a sun lamp to give yourself a little like refresher

Yeah.

cup of tea five 10 minutes for a connection right So when you're thinking in the morning you're prepping yourself for the day or at night however you do that thinking about you know I'm gonna I'm gonna study for an hour and then I'm gonna take a 10 minute break and do X Y Z and you know or if you find yourself thinking about other things and not focusing that's a great time to say okay let me reset the other thing is those connections to people That's huge even you know calling up your best friend or chatting with your hubby when he gets home or whatever it might be those things can make a big difference So if you can't make a big adjustment make small ones throughout your time and that's still prioritizing [00:35:00] yourself and it can make a huge difference by just prioritizing yourself in that small way

Yeah, even just for a couple of minutes and

Yep

moments yeah.

Yep

And what about if we're working towards. Like a career progression or a promotion and or like just you're really motivated and you know, if you're a new grad and you, you just wanna learn as much as possible and you wanna feel comfortable and you wanna progress without hitting that kind of stress point, that burnout point.

Mm-hmm I think it's awareness of yourself So you know we all wanna do better be better you know we talked about that earlier There's a lot of high achievers in this field which is wonderful and high achievement can mean a lot of different things So part of your high achievement goals can be that physical and mental [00:36:00] health side right Like I feel better and learn better when I do X Y Z So

Yeah.

I met someone this weekend who she's tried every exercise She just loves it It's like her thing call her a high achiever in that arena Like she

So,

loves it And also she's a vet a veterinarian who does amazing practice work in a certain arena and so giving yourself that balance of like Achieving and learning can happen through growth in a lot of different ways I also

yeah.

community So if you know you want to be in a certain space finding people who can help guide you and give you advice as you move forward can be super helpful because they've hit some of those road bumps In fact

Fact, I.

mentoring someone for for quite a while and just this morning she texted me and said Hey Gigi do you have [00:37:00] some time for a catchup Like I'm going through some things and I wanna chat And I love that she feels like even after all this time she'll come and we'll just talk through it And for me it feels good And for her it feels good right And so those kinds of things I think What we have to realize is nothing has to be Everything or nothing
Right

Yeah.

we can we can achieve by taking care of ourselves and building that community and creating space being aware of how we're feeling so that we know when we need to have different inputs

Yeah.

Even if it's as simple as I mentioned earlier the glass of water like honestly like if you have a glass of water when you're feeling highly stressed it can change the way you feel physically and it just it can really help you So I know that I'm being very simplistic but that's what I mean That kind of simple stuff added into your life makes [00:38:00] a difference
And like you say, add that together and 10 of those small actions a day of different tiny little things makes a big difference to how you feel at the end of the day. And when you come home and you can be a lot more kind of human.

Absolutely

What if we find ourselves in maybe a work environment that isn't open about talking about mental health, doesn't really recognize it or doesn't have systems in place to support their employee's mental wellbeing,

Yeah that's a tough one So I think you know we

we.

much individual responsibility and then we have so much responsibility from systems So there's a couple of ways we can go and I'm gonna start with the easier of the two One is When you're looking for an environment to work in [00:39:00] try to find out how that environment feels about those things so that you have some insight You're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you so try to find out what they you know what kinds of inputs they put into wellbeing aspect of their of the of the work so that you can start to think about choosing a location as much as you can choosing a location that that has that And I realize that's not always key but we have a program called Clear Blueprint which is a a certification program that's all about wellbeing in Vet Med So

Okay.

help veterinary teams do an assessment with their team and then have inputs to help them improve in areas that they want So that's a way as far as you as an individual when you find yourself in a system that's not working for you I think some of the things that I know that people can do [00:40:00] and they're not easy an ally that maybe you can start the conversation with someone who's kind of open in the system who can help you have that conversation be be the The advocate be the be the pillar be the one who tries to help with that Now it's not all on you to change the system but if you can model it it can be helpful if you can start small changes can be very useful when you have systems that are constantly brushing up against you then I say ask for help from people outside of the system as far as processing what's going on So that comes back to you as an individual But I think you know I think what I like to talk to a lot of people especially new grads about when you're interviewing and you're going into clinics try to [00:41:00] Try to get a sense of it's like like what is it like here You know days are not always gonna be perfect anywhere right but if you can kind of get an a sense of what's important to that clinic it can help you decide if it's the environment you wanna be in And on the other side of that ask for help from those mentors and people that you know Hey this is what it's feeling like for me in this location Like what ideas do you have Because they might have kind of ways of engaging that community that helps you help the community as well as give you some insights So

Yeah.

putting it back on the individual but you know we've all been there where we've been in a situation where we're like yeah this isn't working And sometimes you need to make the choice that it's not the right situation

And kind of as best you can know what you're getting into before you get [00:42:00] into it. Yeah.

You can try You know you don't always know that but

Yeah.

know it's okay to ask questions about what happens when a negative outcome happens with a patient What's it like here when that happens You know

Yeah.

comes up a lot right Can we talk about and I'm gonna use the word failure and I by no means mean that the people are a failure but like when something doesn't go the way you intend what does this clinic what does this team how do they respond know And if it's a place where you can talk about it and learn that's probably a lot better place than a place where you feel like you have to hide

Yeah. And you're then scared of making mistakes and then scared of telling someone if, if it happens and, yeah,

Yeah All the things Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah

Would in that situation, I guess in, in, yeah, in our example, being in a different environment would be much more helpful. I was gonna say, if [00:43:00] you're experiencing challenges, is it more about the environment or the individual, but I guess it's kind of situation dependent.

it Absolutely right So sometimes one environment can be great for someone like let's talk about emergency vet med versus like general practice One person may be emergency vet med like they may be like this is the place this fast paced this like always something happening And somebody else may be like this is I need something different And that's 100 okay So it can be the individual it can be that you know I've

I worked. I worked

and um I was super excited and I thought oh this is gonna be wonderful And like it just never felt really like my space

right,

I ended up leaving and um it wasn't an easy decision but I just it didn't feel like my [00:44:00] culture like what I wanted and I and I had to become okay with that and it can be the a a non fitt it can be those kinds of things but you know there's no right

right or wrong.

And that's the

Yeah.

have to be we have to understand that like we're not always gonna do make all the right decisions and things aren't always gonna be perfect So let's

Yeah.

some space and and do what we can do

What We Can Do For OTHERS

I'd love to come on and talk about how we can help others. If we think that someone else, or someone we know is struggling with something, what is a good way to approach a conversation if you think someone's having a difficult time without it coming across as, I guess, patronizing.

Yeah Hey you know what All you have to do is say Hey how are things going Just check in Like there [00:45:00] is no right or wrong answer but I think the easiest thing is Hey how's it going

Yeah.

And it doesn't have to be like Hey I think you're not doing well It can be Hey how's it going if they're you know if they're standoffish if they wanna talk they will If they don't they don't if you find that you feel like somebody's really struggling it's okay to say you know you don't feel it doesn't seem like you're yourself Like I just wanna check in If someone mentions to you that they feel like harming themselves or something a great way to connect with them is Hey let's you know you're not alone I wanna I wanna be here with you Let's talk about what what's going on for you And just listen Don't judge just listen And you don't have to have the answer for them But listening is great If you feel like someone wants to harm themselves and has a plan then recommend connecting them [00:46:00] to a service uh as as simply as you

can. But I think I think we often think that you can't you know someone someone seems off and we don't know how to ask You don't have to ask specific questions You can be as vague as how's it going You know And even you know I like to put myself in and she like man how's it going for you This week has been a week for me Or How's it

Yeah.

You know and just and let them know that you're there to listen and and don't make it a big deal but let them come to you as they can really one of the simplest ways there's a training program that's online It's very easy It's called QPR and Lottie I'll send you information on QPR

definitely.

a very simple way to You know to think through asking someone how they're doing and giving [00:47:00] input should you need to So I'll send you I'll send you a link to some info on that so you can share it too but again to me if you if you feel like someone's off the simplest thing you can do is ask them they're doing Don't judge

Yeah,

and just you know just just be there you know

yeah,

just be there

Do you find there's a, I'm not sure how to word this question, because men in general are kind of more well known that men don't talk as much about their mental health and their struggles as much as women do. You know,

Mm-hmm

of girls talk to girls a lot more and kind of connect on that level. I think guys find it more difficult to bring these up, especially to guy friends as well.

Sure

Do you find that guys in VetMed. Struggle more or, [00:48:00] or do you not know about it because they're not really speaking up about it as much.

You know that's a very very interesting question I don't know that I know the answer to the question but what I do know is that in the stats that Novi has for people engaging in our services okay vet me in general there's more women in

Yeah,

So we do see men engaging in our services so that's a that's a good sign

yeah.

I think You're right that in most cultures men are more guarded with how they fe their feelings

Yeah.

and so I don't have a great answer for that question but I do know that men are accessing our services I do know that same thing works for them It's just a different look right So

Right.

you said I can talk to my girlfriends and say like oh work is making me [00:49:00] mad And like just get it all out and be done

Yeah.

and men might like process it differently but saying Hey how's it going Work's the same for every human So you know what I mean I wish

I wish I had a better,

gonna I'm gonna think harder on that So thank you for making me think about that I really I really do wanna do that So

it's something I'm quite aware of 'cause yeah, my partner's obviously got in VetMed and um, yeah, he, it's pretty good about talking about like stress and things like that. But it's definitely, I think guys in Vet Med experience it differently to

Yep

girls in vet meds and, you know, there is a. Massively, like disproportionate number of women versus men.

So I, yeah, it was just something that I thought and was, , curious about. And
good

I know a lot of clinics that, you know, there's one [00:50:00] guy that works in the clinic, so then even if it is a supportive environment and they are really open with their mental health, it may just be a situation where the guy doesn't feel, Not, doesn't feel supported, but doesn't feel comfortable sharing his exact feelings or the extent of his stress or emotions on something.

Just purely because sometimes you just wanna talk to a guy and a woman wants to talk to a woman, and

Absolutely you

environment.

100 in our VMHS we have male facilitators a lot because of that because a

Yeah.

guys will want to speak with other men and women tend to be more okay with either honestly in our world

Yeah.

But often you know the other part of my world is I I have a therapy practice and I have a lot of male clients and I have a lot of female clients but like some of my [00:51:00] male colleagues they only have male clients It's just a different you know so that's a good question

I

I ever if I come

come across.

I'll definitely share so

Thank you.

Recognising a Supportive Environment

We chatted a little bit before about, you know, if you're interviewing, trying to get a bit of a gauge on how clinics respond to different situations and those kind of things. What are some, I guess, green flags and red flags to watch out for in that situation?

sure sure you know I think ask for time at the clinic right

Yeah.

you can visually see what's going on right See how people are interacting some green flags would be that there's leaders at all levels meaning that you can see that techs and support staff are part of the solution not separate from the the the conversation And I

Right.

that [00:52:00] because everybody in that dynamic a different vantage point with the clients that they're serving And so having that good communication is a definitely a green light If they

If they have, time as a clinic to do education to to learn new new skills together that's a good sign Asking about their benefits and time off and things like that those are big some red flags would be them not allowing you to come and do a review like being there to see what the clinic daily operations are you in an interview ask a question about this topic and they have no answer for it if they can't give you an answer about things that are important to you in the job that's a a hugely red flag things like You know [00:53:00] their their policies on leave their policies on

Yeah.

Accessibility things like that are are key as well So

Yeah.

a lot of pieces We're actually getting ready to one of our colleagues is gonna put out a kind of a a prerecorded video on some of that content so I'll definitely

Yeah.

with you as well So yeah

That would be amazing. Yeah.

yeah

wonderful.

Emergency Situations

Before we finish up, I do wanna talk about emergency situations, so like extreme situations where you kind of mentioned before, but if someone said to you they wanna hurt themselves or they've considered suicide, or they're, they're really struggling, what can we do and what are we actually allowed to do in terms of [00:54:00] helping and involving ourselves in that situation?

Yeah So I think allowed to do is is a very is a very tenuous thing So for example for me I am a licensed therapist so I am required to intervene in some way or another

Sorry.

not required But what I would say is this QPR was telling you about it's three parts question persuade refer if you know if someone is talking to you and they're saying I am feeling really down I don't wanna be here anymore Kind of finding out you know What kind of if they have a plan that can give you a lot of tips you know you can ask directly are you thinking about suicide you wanna listen to the person and help them Consider seeking [00:55:00] help

Yeah.

them to try to seek help and then you wanna refer or connect them with local resources or professionals You can in most countries take someone who's dealing with the suicidal ideations feeling like they have a plan to a medical facility and get them support so you can go with them things like that Now every country has different resources

Yeah.

thing you can do is kind of have those have some of those ideas at hand You can also ask for welfare checks from your local police departments and things like that as well but it's QPR question persuade refer So try to get them and if if they say oh maybe I'll go on my own You can say Hey I'll give you a ride if you'd like Right

Yeah.

you can't force someone to do something but you can be there and be open and things like[00:56:00]

Yeah.

them And honestly no matter what you do what they do none of it is on you as a human situations vary so drastically You can never know what someone's gonna end up doing But those are key really kind of easy things Question persuade refer

Thank you.

yeah

if we're finding ourselves in a difficult position or a difficult situation? How do we recognize at what point to ask for help and where do we go to reach? Reach out?

absolutely in every country there is like a suicide prevention hotline number so I would find the one closest to you But and and reach out and make those calls Look I think if you're starting to feel like things are off Ask for help at that point

Yeah.

not to wait [00:57:00] try Understand that help is there because we all need it Every human being in the world has needed help at some point in time We don't have to be the biggest strongest everything doesn't have to be perfect So when you start to feel something's off that's a great time to ask for help If for some reason you don't and you are sort of thinking I'm considering or you've thought about what could I do That's a great time to reach out to nvi We have our our stuff you have those local resources you have friends And I'm not saying put it on them but sometimes a call to someone can change your entire perspective and your entire day right So I I don't know about you Lottie but I've had those times when it just feels like the weight of the world is on me And like

Yeah.

things that have changed it have been oh I've been able to talk to someone and see [00:58:00] something different So so to me it's never too early to ask for help even if you feel like things are going well having people community cause then you have people and you can even make you know you can even make agreements Hey if I seem like I'm not myself can you check in with me but it's never never never too early to get to to help yourself with a good trajectory If you're at those darker points you can take yourself to a facility you can talk to a friend you can ask your physician even you can look at therapy there is no right or wrong answer but look your life is more important than anything else So just Yeah

Protect it.

Yeah

Yeah.

alone You're not

Yeah.

Sorry

Thank you.

teary eyed Yeah So thank you. Well, I'll [00:59:00] lighten up a little bit,

Quick Questions

I always like to end with a couple of quick fire questions and then one question that I ask all my guests, but for the quick ones we've got, what is one habit that we should all start implementing today for better mental health?

Uh I think out to a friend is is super Just

Yeah.

somebody have some people or a person that you you know can call whenever you want and they can call you That's that's perfect Yeah

What's one thing that all vets should know about mental health?

You are not alone You are 100 not alone And it's not only veterinarian so other people can help you too I know it's one thing but I have to say too you're not alone because every human is experiencing something and even

Yeah,

the same you can learn from them and they can learn from you and you can [01:00:00] support each other

yeah,

Yeah

yeah. And what is one thing that you've learned from working with vets that is different to working with people from other professions?

Oh gosh I mean every profession has something but I think one thing that's different in Vet world is that there's so much that you all learn right You all learn about so many species You're so intelligent And I think that sometimes is one of the tripping points in a way It's because there's so much knowledge and so much information It's hard at times for vets to say eh I do need something else And

Yeah.

you know that's one thing I mean I've learned so many things I've learned amazing things from veterinary team members that just every day I I I learn something new and I'm just so proud to be a part of the [01:01:00] community and the way that I am and the team that I have and just being able to be here and talk about it So

Yeah. Well I know the whole vet community really appreciates everything you do, so thank you.

Thank you Yeah thank you

And my final question is, if you could give one piece of advice to all vet students and new grads, what would it be?

Build that community I can't say it enough I cannot say it enough And reach out to Nvi Look we're here We're here because we wanna be and we know that you can do it and we know that we can help So please do it But build your community Get do the things you love and build your community and that will get you a long way

Yeah.

A

Perfect.

Outro

Thank you so much for joining me. I, uh, Thank you for sharing all your wisdom and yeah, for the work you do for the vet community. . Everyone's so appreciates it.

Yeah thanks Lottie [01:02:00] and I so appreciate Nvi so appreciates the opportunity to be here and

Yeah.

and um I've enjoyed my time and see you can even see that everybody has a moment where they they uh experienced some emotion and so you know just happy to do it And thanks so

Yeah.

and and putting this out there And

Yeah,

all of our resources everybody anywhere and um yeah absolutely Thank you so much
Yeah, no, thank you. if anything we've discussed has resonated with you or you wanna find more information, then yeah, really encourage everyone listening to explore the resources that not one more vet has. , Gigi mentioned the lifeboat system, so that peer support group, the online forums, a lot of their wonderful resources online, , about fostering the communities suicide supports, mental health awareness.

So check those out. I'll link everything in the show notes as I said. , And if you're listening and [01:03:00] things are feeling a little bit overwhelming right now, as we said before. Support is available. You're not alone in this at all. There are people who do wanna talk and do wanna help. So please use those resources available to you and just, yeah, talk to people and talk to those around you.

Use your community. , Ed's a really challenging career for so many reasons, but I think if we talk, if we listen and support each other, then it doesn't have to feel so, , isolating or so challenging. , If you know someone who might find this useful, please share it with them. If you have any suggestions or topics that you wanna hear, , or guests that you want us to have on, then find us on TikTok and Instagram at Veterinary Vista and let us know.
And thank you again to you, Gigi., For everything. It's been wonderful. Thank you.
Yeah Thank you Lottie You guys have a wonderful day and I [01:04:00] appreciate it
Thank you. See you next time.