The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast

Guest: Jeff Brown. What does it truly mean to see a child — not just their behaviour, but the brain and experiences underneath it?

In this episode of The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast, host Paul Cruz is joined by educator and author Jeff Brown, a high school teacher with over 25 years of experience and lived experience as an autistic and ADHD adult. Together, they explore how slowing down our perception can transform classrooms, homes, and lives.

Jeff shares why behaviour is so often misunderstood, how neurodivergent students are mislabeled as “lazy” or “defiant,” and what becomes possible when adults choose curiosity over judgment. From sensory overload and rejection sensitivity to discipline systems and long-term self-worth, this conversation reframes advocacy as something that begins with how we see people — long before paperwork or policy.

This episode is especially meaningful for:
  • Neurodivergent youth who’ve felt misunderstood
  • Parents and caregivers seeking a more compassionate lens
  • Educators looking to build inclusive, supportive classrooms
When people feel seen, they feel safer. And when they feel safe, they can grow.

Purchase the book mentioned in this episode through Amazon, "Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone As Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher" - Author Jeff Brown.

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For Amazon US and International Buyers (except Canada)

1. Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone as Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher - https://amzn.to/3MDRfwG

For Amazon Canada Buyers:

1. Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone as Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher - https://amzn.to/48Spgk9

Website: https://www.jeffbrownsclassroom.com/books/seeing-people

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Creators and Guests

Guest
Jeff Brown
He is a late-diagnosed autistic and ADHD high school relationships teacher with over 25 years of experience. He discovered that his ability to deeply understand and connect with students comes because of his neurodiversity, not in spite of it. Drawing on hyper-empathy, pattern recognition, bottom-up thinking, and a lifelong interest in people, Jeff helps teachers, parents, therapists, and leaders learn how to truly see and understand those they support. He is the author of Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone.

What is The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast?

I’m Paul, the host of The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast.

I’m not a clinician, researcher, or professional expert — and that’s intentional.

I come to this work as a neurodivergent individual with lived experience. I know what it feels like to navigate systems that weren’t designed for how your mind works, to question your own capacity because of labels, and to search for language that actually reflects who you are, not just how you’re measured.
​
This podcast exists because too many conversations about neurodiversity happen about us, rather than with us.

How This Podcast Is Different
​
Unlike many podcasts in this space, The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast isn’t built on credentials or clinical authority. It’s built on listening, reflection, and shared humanity.
​
I don’t position myself as an expert with answers. I show up as a facilitator of stories — asking curious, grounded questions from the perspective of someone who lives this reality every day.
​
That means:

Conversations aren’t rushed or overly polished
Guests aren’t reduced to diagnoses or achievements
Complexity, contradiction, and uncertainty are welcome
Lived experience is treated as valid knowledge

​Whether I’m speaking with educators, parents, authors, creatives, researchers, or other neurodivergent individuals, the focus is always the same: seeing the person before the label.
​
​Why Lived Experience Matters Here
​
Being neurodivergent shapes how I listen, how I notice patterns, and how I hold space. It allows me to ask questions that come from recognition rather than assumption — and to create conversations that feel safer, slower, and more honest.
​
This isn’t a podcast about fixing people.
It’s a podcast about understanding ourselves, our systems, and each other more clearly. If you’re looking for expert opinions, you’ll find many excellent shows.

If you’re looking for real conversations, grounded in lived experience and mutual respect, you’re in the right place.
​
The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast — Embracing Every Mind. Sharing Every Voice.

Website: https://www.neurodiversityvoices.com

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Your feedback means the world to us. Please rate and leave a comment on your favourite podcast app so we can continue amplifying neurodivergent voices.

Jeff Brown:

All kids want to do well. Every kid. So most schools and teachers think that I just need to incentivize them to do well, and if they want to do well, they'll do fine. But every kid wants to do well already. To get them to want to do well, What you do is need to create an environment for them in which they can do well, because it's not about when you're in an environment that works continually against your brain, when it works continually against the way it works, then you have to try three, four times harder than everybody else just to get the same amount.

Jeff Brown:

And when you're telling every kid to give you a 100%, some kids have to give twice that just to get the same work done. What's going happen is you create an environment where you burn kids out. You burn the ADHD kids out, you burn the autistic kids out because they have to work harder just to keep up.

Paul Cruz:

Hello, and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast. I'm your host, Paul, and we're thrilled to have you join us on this journey of exploration, advocacy and celebration of neurodiversity. Together, we'll have meaningful conversations, share inspiring stories, and challenge misconceptions about neurodiversity. This podcast is for everyone, whether you're neurodivergent yourself, an educator, a parent, or just someone curious to learn more. Our goal is to amplify voices, foster understanding, and spark change in the way we view and support neurodiversity.

Paul Cruz:

We're so excited to have you as we celebrate the beauty of diverse minds and work toward a more inclusive future. So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast. Before we get started, I want you to know this is a safe space. Today's episode is about what it means to really see people, especially kids and teens whose brains work differently.

Paul Cruz:

Sometimes adults focus on behavior without understanding what's underneath. Conversation, we're slowing things down. We're talking about understanding, kindness, and what can change when someone finally feels seen. If any part of this sounds like you, you're welcome here. Jeff, thank you so much for being here.

Paul Cruz:

I really appreciate the way you talk about understanding people, not by fixing them, but by learning how to truly see them. I'm grateful you're joining us for this conversation today.

Jeff Brown:

Thanks, Paul. I'm excited to be here and to be

Paul Cruz:

able to talk with you. Jeff, you used the phrase learning to see people throughout your work. When you say that, what does seeing actually mean in real life, especially for students whose brains work differently?

Jeff Brown:

Yeah. Well, I'm a I'm a high school teacher. I've been teaching for twenty five years. And, I teach classes like child development and relationships and psychology and stuff like that. And like a lot of, autistic people like myself, I have kind of a special interest in people understanding them and seeing them and, being able to understand their behavior and why people are the way they are.

Jeff Brown:

And so as a teacher, I've been really just trying to understand my students, understand where they come from, what they think, the way their brain works, and to be able to see them. I found that when I can truly see them, then I have more power to work with them and influence them and teach them and guide them. But that comes after seeing them.

Paul Cruz:

Because so often what adults think they're seeing is behavior. In schools and homes, behavior is often judged before it's understood. What changes when an adult slows down long enough to see what's underneath the behavior?

Jeff Brown:

Yeah. So the first thing I think in order to understand behavior, in order to understand how kids act and what they do, we have to be able to understand their brain. We kind of have to see their brain. I've got a couple chapters about that in my book about seeing their brain. Once you understand how their brain works, how it's different, the ways that it's acting, the more you can understand what's going on here.

Jeff Brown:

One of the most important things to be able to understand other people in general is just knowing the basic truth that brains don't all work the same. Now, most people think that, other people's brains work basically the same way. And so they judge their behavior based on what they themselves would do without really understanding the differences behind that. So like for instance, if I have a kid with ADHD who is having trouble staying focused, I remember that it's a brain that has dopamine regulation differences and they're not choosing to be that way, they're not choosing to be difficult, that's just what the way their brain works, then what I do is instead of blaming the child, I try and look for ways that work best to work with their brain because most, I think, teachers and parents and adults assume that kids are just choosing to be difficult when that's typically not the case.

Paul Cruz:

That slowing down sounds personal, but it also sounds bigger than that. Yeah. Why do you believe learning how to see people isn't just a personal skill, but actually a form of advocacy?

Jeff Brown:

Well, think in order to advocate for a child and in order to advocate for a group, in order to advocate for people who are vulnerable, I think you truly have to see them and understand for where they are. I told my students just this morning actually, I taught a couple classes this morning including my child development class, I said the more I understand child development, more I understand the way the brain works, the more I understand the way humans develop, the less judgmental I become because I no longer judge bad behaviors as choices, I no longer judge people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds in a different way. I once had a student tell me that if they grew up a bad environment, then they would be the one to rise above it. They would be the one to raise themselves up by their bootstraps, so to speak, as the thing goes. And I told them that if you grew up in that environment, you would not be the same person as you are right now.

Jeff Brown:

That you would have a different brain, that your reactions would be different. Your brain would be more based on survival than on trying to do all the things that you do now. Same thing with kids who are neurodivergent or autistic or ADHD is that we think that they're making these choices when oftentimes this is a brain that's wired differently and we can't advocate for that. We can't create an environment for that unless we know how their brain works. And once we understand and see them, then you can create an environment that works much better for them, which is kind of what I try and do in my classes is I also teach teachers different things as well.

Jeff Brown:

And I tell them that, hey, anything you can do to make the environment better for neurodivergent kids is going to help all your kids because you create an accommodating classroom. It's going to help every kid and not just the ones because a lot of teachers are like, I don't have time to give everybody individual accommodations. I'm like, well, you don't need to do that. You just create an accommodating environment that works for neurodivergent brains, it's going to help neurotypical brains also. So that's kind of what I mean by so back to your question on seeing is important for advocacy is that once you can see then you can know what their needs are.

Jeff Brown:

Too often times people are advocating for people without really knowing what their needs are, speaking for them, speaking above them, and silencing them instead of actually seeing them and what they need.

Paul Cruz:

When people aren't truly seen, systems tend to step in. From your twenty five years teaching relationships, what are the most common ways neurodivergent students are misunderstood by well meaning adults?

Jeff Brown:

Well, I think, one of them again is that they I have a lot of ADHD and autistic kids who tell me that they were hated by teachers as they grew up, that teachers did not understand them. They thought they were just trying to be difficult, that, they were like working against them or trying to sabotage their classes without really seeing that these kids are just trying to get their brains to work in an environment that wasn't made for them. And so I think that's the first one is just assuming that these kids are making choices that they don't want to do well. But I've discovered there's another book about this called Lost at School which is that all kids want to do well. Every kid, so most schools and teachers think that I just need to incentivize them to do well and if they wanna do well they'll do fine.

Jeff Brown:

But every kid wants to do well already. Have to get them to want to do well. What you do is need to create an environment for them in which they can do well because it's not about when you're in an environment that works continually against your brain, when it works continually against the way it works, then you have to try three, four times harder than everybody else just to get the same amount. And when you're telling every kid to give your a 100%, some kids have to give twice that just to get the same work done. What's going to happen is you create an environment where you burn kids out.

Jeff Brown:

You burn the ADHD kids out, you burn the autistic kids out because they have to work harder just to keep up. So I guess the biggest ways in which I see teachers and parents and other adults misread or misunderstand or miss see these kids as they think that they just need to try harder that they, and the problem is they're already trying harder. These kids are not lazy. A lot of teachers think that ADHD kids are lazy or that autistic kids just don't get it. And that's not true.

Jeff Brown:

They're actually oftentimes from what I've noticed, a lot of these kids are actually working way harder than their peers and not often getting the same results. And when teachers don't acknowledge that, they're still when you're working twice as hard as everyone else and the teacher tells you, why are you so lazy? Then that's demoralizing. You feel like, why am I even trying at all? And so some of these kids, by the time they get to my classes and when they're 15, 16, 17, that's the ages I teach, that they're just, like, giving up.

Jeff Brown:

Because like why try if even if I do try, I get told that I'm lazy anyways. So I think that's one of the biggest things. Autistic and ADHD kids are oftentimes told they're lazy or that they don't get it or they just wonder why they don't just learn the same way everybody else does.

Paul Cruz:

And those misunderstandings often get labeled. How often do you see overwhelm, sensory overload, or anxiety misread as defiance, disrespect, or a lack of effort?

Jeff Brown:

I think that happens all the time. I think if a kid is in an environment that works against their brain, they're constantly in a state of overwhelm and sensory overload. And when a teacher tries to come in and push a little bit harder while they're already in that state, then you're gonna have sometimes you have a kid shut down or sometimes you have a kid pushed back and so then teachers may interpret that as well they're being lazy or they're pushing back and so they're being defiant And so then what happens is you have teachers and kids in a power struggle and the more you're going to push on a meltdown, on a shutdown or on an ADHD kid with RSD rejection sensitive dysphoria, the more you're going to have them shut down. And so then they think that's even more defiant and that unfortunately ends too many times with kids getting sent to the discipline office, which doesn't help anything at all. So in my twenty five years of teaching, I've only sent a kid one time to the discipline office and that was because he said something horrible to another student that I had to deal with, that was the only way I could deal with it.

Jeff Brown:

But every other time I found if you understand what the kid is going on, if I have a kid who's really pushing back, then I'll just pull him outside and say, hey, is there's, are you okay? What's going on here? This isn't like what you're normally like. Is there something happening that you need to tell me about? And every time I've got the kids, we'll just say, yes, Mr.

Jeff Brown:

Brown. I had a rough morning this morning. I had a fight with my dad or didn't sleep at all last night or any of those things and then I'll say, I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. If we could work together on this then then we can find a way forward. And there has not been a single time where that hasn't worked.

Jeff Brown:

So not a single time if I had to send a kid to that discipline office because first of all we try and create an environment where they feel more comfortable so it's less likely to happen but it doesn't make it zero like there's still some kids are still going to have that trouble When they do have that trouble, when they know they have somebody they can turn to instead of somebody who's trying to force them, then what happens is that they build trust in you and they know you're on their side. So you're kinda like a coach rather than a disciplinarian who's trying to stop them.

Paul Cruz:

That kind of mislabeling doesn't just affect discipline. It affects how a young person sees themselves. What impact does the that misinterpretation have on a child's nervous system identity and long term sense of self worth?

Jeff Brown:

Yeah. That's one of the big ones is unfortunately, again, by the time they get to my classes, they've already had several teachers by that time. Some of them who might have been good, but also they remember a lot of the ones who misunderstood them. And so by that time, a lot of them, like this one I talked about in my class this morning, is that quote that if you, I can't remember the quote, but anyways that different kids learn different ways and so they're gonna think they're stupid if they learn in a different way. And so what happens is by the time they get to me, they feel like they don't know anything.

Jeff Brown:

Don't, they feel like they're stupid and they don't understand that they're actually highly intelligent. They're just their brain requires different circumstances for it to work the way they need to. So ADHD kids in particular, something called rejection sensitive dysphoria in which every time there is one study that said by doctor Michael Jelenick that said that kids ADHD kids are given 20,000 criticisms by the time they're aged 10 in school. And RSD makes it feel so much worse every time you're criticized. So they just shut down.

Jeff Brown:

ADHD kids or autistic kids are oftentimes asked why they're not getting it and their sensory issues might go higher and so they might shut down more. And add to that, that there's a whole bunch of these kids, autistic and ADHD who are undiagnosed, who don't know their ADHD and don't know they're autistic like myself, who's just recently diagnosed with both of those. Teachers think that they're just being lazy also because they don't have diagnosis and all those kinds things. So these kids just wonder why everything's so much harder for them. And they think they're just not as smart.

Jeff Brown:

They think they just can't work as hard as everyone else. And so maybe they must be lazy or internalizing. That's where we get what we call internalized ableism oftentimes as well. So

Paul Cruz:

This is where your work becomes really practical. If a teacher or parent is listening right now and realizing they may have been misreading a child, where should they start relearning how to see that child?

Jeff Brown:

Well, this is kind of why I wrote my book, Seeing People About That, is to kind of take people through that process of being able to read deeper. And it's not just about autistic and ADHD, but it's all kids. And they need to start by seeing that their brain works differently to understand, maybe do some research and education on how different brains work. And that's kind of when I started to, I have a daughter who was diagnosed autistic. I have another daughter who's diagnosed ADHD.

Jeff Brown:

I've got other kids who I'm not sure what's going on exactly, there's different things going on with all of them. And so we started doing just tons of research when we found out about autism and ADHD and things like that. And just started to realize that their brains that I had misread them. I had misread, the ways that things were going on. My daughter, Emeline has ADHD.

Jeff Brown:

She's always been a perfectionist. She's always been a high achiever, which is very common for ADHD girls. And I was always trying to get her to just back off a little bit so she wouldn't burn herself out. I didn't realize that her ADHD and her RSD in particular were were the things driving that. And so when we, I realized that she wasn't choosing that, it's just the way your brain worked.

Jeff Brown:

I did some research on that. I found a workbook online that helps her with her RSD. I printed that offer and started helping her work with that. She found a therapist who worked well with that and would help her with her RSD and some neurodivergent affirming therapists and things like that. Same thing with my daughter Geneva, she was actually not diagnosed until she was 14.

Jeff Brown:

And we had misread a lot of what was going on with her. So a lot of times we're like, well, what's going on? Why can't you do some of the same things your brothers and sisters are doing? And then when we realized, okay, okay, we need to take a step back and realize things just don't work the same. And then she was a lot less frustrated.

Jeff Brown:

We were a lot less frustrated. The more we educated ourselves and both my process with my own kids and my students at school helped me realize that I need to stop judging kids. And there's a phrase that I think about a lot, is also in the book as well, is be curious, not judgmental. That I need to be curious about why if a kid is struggling at school or one of my own kids, I need to be curious about what is causing that, what is what's happening there, and then really look into that. And then it becomes more of a puzzle.

Jeff Brown:

And some of the of the difficult kids at school that a lot of teachers get annoyed by, I find them interesting and fascinating. And I actually tend to enjoy them. And that helps me get a better response from them. But they know that I'm trying to understand them and that creates a much better dynamic between me and them so that I can help them kind of with their struggles a little bit. But I would say parents and teachers do more research on the way different brain works, try and understand that, see what works in different autistic and different ADHD because different things work.

Jeff Brown:

So you gotta do some trial and error also. But really, they're not choosing to be difficult. There are things that they need a little extra help in.

Paul Cruz:

But slowing down perception isn't easy in fast paced environments. You talk about slowing down perception. What does that actually look like in a busy classroom or home without losing structure or expectations?

Jeff Brown:

Well, I think the main thing is kind of like what I said, be curious, not judgmental, is that our brains automatically have this desire to jump to a conclusion that we want to figure things out. We want to know things. And sometimes that's called the illusion of knowledge is that we think we figured somebody out way before we really have. That we think that our brain wants to make that judgment as soon as possible. And so we have to stop our brain from doing that.

Jeff Brown:

We have to want to know more and more about them because the second you decide you know somebody is the second that you stop learning about them. So that's the first thing is just stopping your judgment. Like, once you think you understand a kid at school, once you think you understand your own students, just realize, hey, I know something about them. There's still a lot more to learn and still be curious as you're doing that. Now, you can still have structure because structure does not require a judgmental environment.

Jeff Brown:

Structure just requires things like boundaries and rules and things that people can count on and things that aren't based on judgments and getting angry or getting upset. You can be firm and have boundaries and all those things without actually using disappointment or anger or fear as a way to control. Those things tend to make things worse, with neurodivergent kids, I think.

Paul Cruz:

And sometimes slowing down means resisting the urge to fix things right away. How do adults learn to sit with uncertainty instead of rushing to control or correct behavior?

Jeff Brown:

Well, that's one of the big things we talk about in my relationships class, and is the need to control. In my relationships class, we talk about that every relationship has power. You have like in Star Wars, I use that as an analogy, and I'm actually writing a second book on that right now. But power is the light side and the dark side. And the dark side comes from a need to control.

Jeff Brown:

And that typically is made up of three different things. Fear as a way to control people out of fear. Second one is conditional love, which is that I will give you acceptance, but only after you do what I want you to. And the third one is, manipulation, which uses fear, obligation, and guilt as a way to control somebody. Now once you give up the need to control, then you're gonna go for more an influence in teaching and coaching type of base.

Jeff Brown:

Like for instance, that I don't need to make my own kid fit into a particular box. I don't need to make my students at school be exactly the way I need them to. What I'm gonna do is take them from where they're at, which I accept them at that point, but I'm gonna lead them to a better place from there. I think it's when parents feel that they need their kids to be a particular way, when teachers feel that, oftentimes that comes from a place of thinking that their behavior reflects on themselves. And so I need them to act just a way that I can be proud.

Jeff Brown:

And we forget what the kid needs and more about what we need as parents and teachers. So giving up that, there's there's a great scene in Kung Fu Panda, one of my favorite movies. Ashram Tortoise after Master Ugwei. Because Master Ugwei teaches an important lesson that you have to give up the illusion of control. And then once you can, you can lead and guide and train Po much like growing a the peach tree.

Jeff Brown:

Okay. Once we stop seeing kids as something that need to be controlled and somebody that we just need to nurture, then that that moves us away from a fear based, a control based, more to a I'm gonna help you be something better than who you are. And that's more based on trust. That kids will more likely follow you because they like where you're leading them. They know that you're gonna lead them to a better life.

Jeff Brown:

And so typically, don't have to force my kids or or my students at school because they know mister Brown's teaching good things and I wanna learn that. So it's out of a desire rather than fear.

Paul Cruz:

Love to ground this in a real moment. Can you share an example of a time when truly seeing a student rather than reacting to their behavior changed the direction of their life?

Jeff Brown:

Yeah, so when I first started teaching, I think I was a bit more judgmental than I was now and more needing to control and a little bit less understanding of how these things work. But I had one student who's kind of always in the back who was always challenging me and questioning everything I said, and I thought that he was just trying to make things, know, I just always thought it made things difficult. I was getting more and more frustrated. And so I just spent a little bit of time trying to figure out and understand, well, why is he doing this? What's going on here?

Jeff Brown:

And so once I did that, I realized that he has an underlying different way of thinking and processing things. So what I did is I made a lesson based on something that he would understand in a different way that is aimed at something he needs to learn. So I made that lesson for the whole class, but I think he realized it was something about him also. And I didn't it wasn't a discipline thing. It wasn't a criticism thing.

Jeff Brown:

It was just teaching this new way of thinking about things. And it changed the way he reacted from from pretty much there on. Later, actually, when I was getting my master's degree, he was actually getting his bachelor's degree at the same college and we ended up in a class together. It was interesting. And he once told me, he said, mister Brown, you're the only teacher who took time to to understand what I was saying and get to know me.

Jeff Brown:

Everybody else just thought I was being annoying. But you're the only teacher. And so, yeah, just taking the time to see and understand can make a difference from there on, actually.

Paul Cruz:

What did that moment teach you about the power an adult holds?

Jeff Brown:

Well, I realized that well, first of all, as a teacher, I think a lot of us are pretty aware of how much power we can have. And for a lot of us it keeps us up and it's something to realize that what we do can have an impact on a child for good or for negative for many years to come. And so I just always try and keep that in mind that in some ways, just as an encouraging word, stopping to understand. He's not the only kid who told me that I was somebody who stopped to understand them and it made all the difference. And so I found that most of the things that would change a child's life were less about my classes, what they taught, and more about the connections that I had with them.

Jeff Brown:

That if they understood that I saw them and understood them, then that would change how they felt about themselves. And if that would change how they felt about themselves, then they would, that would change their whole future. And so it made a difference.

Paul Cruz:

Seeing isn't just emotional, it shapes systems. How does the way adults see a child influence things like discipline, IEPs, access to support, and long term opportunity?

Jeff Brown:

Well, I think too much of our structures are based on a rewards and punishments type of way to see things. When when I when I say like, I I was talking about this with my students this morning also. We're doing a review over the whole semester. And I what is the first thing you think of when I say the word discipline? And almost always is punishments, like something bad, like you're going to punish them for doing something.

Jeff Brown:

The other thing that comes next is rewards. Like we reward or we punish the child, but I think that that is wrong entirely. And again, in the book Lost at School, he talks about if we change the idea that kids need to be incentivized to do good, because all kids already want to do good, which is what rewards and punishment are about trying to motivate them to do well. If we realize we don't have to motivate them to do well, we have to teach them how to do well, and that changes everything. And so everything needs to be more based on a skills based teaching.

Jeff Brown:

Like if a child is really struggling, it's usually because they're lacking some kind of a skill and we need to instead of trying to punish that out of them, we got to support them and help them develop that skill. And honestly, may not know it yet because they're based in a discipline form, they want to build that skill already. They want to learn this and you just got to help them see that they can be successful with that and then they'll want to do that. So things like school structures and the whole discipline team and all that kind of stuff, which is why I don't send kids to the discipline office, it's all based on punishments and it's all based on rewards. And then we we try and, you know, give rewards to certain kids who aren't gonna need it either.

Jeff Brown:

Okay. And so we have to move away from that towards teaching kids the skills they're lacking so that they can already do what they want to do, which is do well. Every kid wants to live a happy and successful life, which I define as being happy. And instead of trying to punish the bad things out of them, we just realize because there's just certain things they need support in, then they tend to do well. But yeah, I think most structures in society and school and all that are based on a rewards punishment orientation.

Jeff Brown:

And that's a completely wrong idea of human nature and how we work. So I think seeing that, seeing what really what kids need, what they lack, and what will help them to grow would change all of that. So it's one of the reasons why I like to to try and teach these things because I think the more people realize it, the systems kinda revolve to fit what we all see and understand.

Paul Cruz:

You often say advocacy starts long before paperwork. Why do you believe real advocacy begins with perception long before policy or forms? And what happens when just one adult chooses to see a student differently?

Jeff Brown:

Well, kind like what I mentioned before with my own experiences, as I teach other teachers and they have those same experiences, that changes a child's life forever after that also. There's a poem, or there's a phrase by Robert Frost once, he talks about something called an immortal wound. That reading a poem gave him an immortal wound, which is something that changed him and he never recovered from for the rest of his life in a positive way. I mean we think of wounds as negative. But I think a teacher can have that kind of effect on a child that changes them and gives them the confidence to move forward and actually find a happier life in the future.

Jeff Brown:

And I see other teachers do this all the time. Like I talk about the ways the system needs change and stuff like that, but from my experience most teachers want to do the best. Most teachers want to do what's right, but we struggle with some of these things we talk about because of overwhelm and lack of pain, lack of respect and all those kind of things. And I think those things will help. But sometimes it's just changing the way we see things, which is why I keep talking about these things and write about these things and all this kind of stuff.

Jeff Brown:

Because I think the more we see things, actually it makes things easier and we'll be less overwhelmed. And I think policies, I think the way structures are, are based on current beliefs. But if we change those beliefs, then policies start to change after that also. So it's kind of a two way thing. Like the policy is structured the way we think, but also the way we think structured policies.

Jeff Brown:

So I tend to focus more on the way we think and hopefully that translates into different policies also.

Paul Cruz:

You explore these ideas more deeply in your book. In Seeing People, you teach these skills through Evelyn, a fictional adult learner. What do you hope readers, especially neurodivergent readers, feel as they move through those lessons?

Jeff Brown:

Well, I kind of wrote Evelyn as the every person, okay, so that the reader can put themselves into Evelyn's shoes. That each lesson, it's made up of 20 different chapters, each a different lesson, where I help Evelyn see and understand people in a deeper way. The first one is what we talked about earlier, which is to stop your judgments, to stop thinking you understand, and then each one after that is once you get past that, then what are the biases that keep you from seeing? What are the judgments that keep you from seeing? What are the ways that we can look deeper into students to see their brains, to see their activities, to see their patterns, to see their futures, so that we can know what their likely future is so we can change it to a better one.

Jeff Brown:

So I like to teach people neurodivergence, neurotypicals, how understanding this gives us power to connect with people and also how to nudge people to a better future including ourselves. I've had a bunch of neurodivergence who read the book who said that described the way their brain worked better than anything else. Like it's kind of the inner workings of your brain. So hopefully for neurodivergence it gives you a lot more self understanding of how the way we think through things. Which kind of came through me studying my own brain and after getting recently diagnosed and realizing that my brain works differently than everyone else also because I'm autistic and ADHD.

Jeff Brown:

That kind of writing it was therapeutic in writing out how my brain works. I found that a lot of other neurodivergent say, Hey, that really resonates with me.

Paul Cruz:

My final question. If you could leave parents, teachers, and school leaders with one essential truth about neurodivergent students and what becomes possible when we truly see them, what would you want them to understand?

Jeff Brown:

I guess the thing is, we create a system that is helpful, that is accommodating, that fits with their brains, that it'll not only help everyone, but it'll help a neurodivergent brain to be able to contribute in ways that will help all society be better. If you look throughout history, a lot of the greatest thinkers were, a lot of historians think were likely neurodivergent from Einstein to Newton to Mozart to Michelangelo. And if these brains are given a chance to thrive, we'll help not just ourselves, but all society in general. We have some talents that I think society needs, which is the ability to think outside the box, to step outside existing social structures, which help us to get past things that we're trapped in, rich ways of thinking, expanding that to other ways and lifting us to the next level. So I guess what I would say is stop saying your neurodivergent kids as liabilities and more as brains that can really make a difference to make society and everything a better place.

Jeff Brown:

But regardless, to see them as people and of infinite worth and of something that is wonderful just for the people that they are as well.

Paul Cruz:

Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your stories, your perspective, and your care so openly today. The way you talk about seeing people brings a lot of clarity and hope, especially for young listeners who may have spent a long time feeling misunderstood. I really appreciate you being here and the work you continue to do.

Jeff Brown:

Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. I love your work that you're doing. I'm glad that you're getting the word out here. I think this is a great podcast.

Jeff Brown:

I've been listening to episodes and I think it's awesome. So thank you very much and you're doing a great work also. Thank you.

Paul Cruz:

Before we finish, I want to leave you with this. Helping someone doesn't start with telling them to change. It starts with taking time to really understand them. When people feel seen, they feel safer. And when they feel safe, they can grow.

Paul Cruz:

If today's conversation sounded like your experience, you're not alone. There is nothing wrong with how your brain works. You don't need to change who you are to belong. When we learn to see people clearly, including ourselves, That's where real support begins. If this conversation brought you clarity, encouragement, or just made you feel a little more seen, there are a few powerful ways you can support the work we're doing here.

Paul Cruz:

First, you can join our Patreon community. Your monthly support helps keep the podcast going, helps us bring on incredible guests, and allows us to create more resources for neurodivergent families and adults. Plus, you'll get access to Bong's content and behind the scenes updates. Just search the Neurodiversity Voices podcast on Patreon or find the link in our show notes. If you prefer one time support, we also have a co fund me campaign that helps cover production accessibility tools and future projects.

Paul Cruz:

Every contribution big or small makes the real difference in keeping the show alive and growing. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, you can now subscribe to our neurodiversity voices plus. Here, you'll get seven day early access to new episodes with a one month free trial and in listening experience designed just for our support. You can also show your love for the show by checking out our merch on Printify shirt, shirt, hoodies, mugs, more. It's a fun way Whether you support us financially, share an episode with a friend, or simply keep tuning in.

Paul Cruz:

You are an essential part of this community. And we're so grateful. Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep celebrating the beauty of diverse minds. Thanks for listening to the neurodiversity voices podcast.