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The Be The Church Podcast is for spiritual leaders who want to be challenged to lead like Jesus in everyday places—at home, in your church, at school, and in the workplace. Hosted by Be The Church founder Joel Wayne and Chapel Pointe pastor Luke Bilberry, each episode features bold, authentic conversations with business and ministry leaders that are rooted in Scripture. You'll learn how to expand your spiritual influence and leverage your leadership to advance the Kingdom of God. Let's be the church together! For more information, visit bethechurch.org/podcast.
My job description like yours, it's I've been there eight years. That's evolved. Every year or so, I feel like it changes a little bit.
Luke Bilberry:It's it's the other duties as assigned. Like, that's the key bullet
Joel Wayne:point I'm
Zach Stephens:In the job description, that's always there. Listen.
Joel Wayne:We don't even put it at the bottom. We put it at the top. Primary responsibility.
Zach Stephens:Anything that's honest. Anything the lead pastor doesn't wanna do. Yeah.
Joel Wayne:Oh, okay. You're carrying some baggage.
Zach Stephens:I had to learn a little bit the hard way. You know that that good change is often slow change because I just like to get into a place and break things. And
Joel Wayne:Yes.
Zach Stephens:And and I've had it in Wow.
Joel Wayne:I'm not going to let you guys spend time together alone. Anything good goes to the glory of the father. Amen. Anything bad goes to my desk.
Zach Stephens:Okay? Better yours than mine. That it's easy to look around and to to to maybe you look at your lead pastor, you say, I could do that. And if you focus and dwell on the I coulds, it'll lead to discontent. Yes.
Zach Stephens:Yeah. And I would instead focus on the I shoulds, which
Joel Wayne:is all about calling. We want people to grow, but we don't have a role for them if they grow outside of their current position. Right. And I think that's incredibly sad in many regards because they already have a knowledge of the company. They already understand your DNA and your culture.
Joel Wayne:They already understand what your call is. They already understand really what your ultimate goal is. Right. So let them change. That's what we do with our people.
Joel Wayne:I love that you think you're always right. And and and that's not
Zach Stephens:at all. Not at all. It's just that
Luke Bilberry:kinda I mean, I as someone who
Luke Bilberry:would resonate, then, yes, we are right.
Luke Bilberry:And but we humbly submit that.
Joel Wayne:Hello, and welcome to the Be The Church podcast where today we get to sit down with Zach Stephens and Luke Bilberry, two godly men who get to fill the second seat in a church setting. And it doesn't matter if you're in the business world or if you're in the church ministry world or where you might be working or serving. Man, today there's so many nuggets to pull out on how to fill that role well, to support a vision and a call from an organization or even another person and how to do that with humility and trust. So let's dive in it today as we get to live out as the hands and feet of Jesus Christ and to do everything we can to go and to be the church. So we're already talking about the beautiful dynamic of being a second seat individual.
Joel Wayne:What's it look like to fill a second seat, not to have the primary role? Mhmm. And I wanna talk with you guys a little bit about that today because there's so many people who are helping to support the vision or the call, whatever that might be, even in business, it doesn't matter, of someone else, and they're filling that role. And I know how much I appreciate that individual. I know what it does for my own life, my own sanity.
Joel Wayne:But before we go, I've got I've got both of you here. Why don't you guys just introduce yourself? And they already know you from so many of our podcasts, right? But introduce yourself and what you think your role is. Then I get to determine if this guy is right.
Joel Wayne:So
Luke Bilberry:my name is Luke Bilberry, and I think the current working title is gatherings pastor. And what that means for me is I get to oversee our worship, our production and our campuses to make sure that we're all on the line at the end of the day to make sure that we're running after multiple and transformed followers of Jesus. Now, that, could you tell me what you want me to do? That'd be really great and helpful. And I'd love to serve you in that way.
Luke Bilberry:But it's been a fun to be a part of Chapel Point and see God grow the ministry and grow me in the midst of it from student ministry leader, family ministry pastor, helping out with our missions and mobilization efforts back in 2020 in that zone and then moving into this worship creative gathering space has been a lot of fun.
Joel Wayne:So you've changed jobs as a second seeder four times?
Zach Stephens:Pretty normal. Yeah. It is.
Luke Bilberry:It is that. So it's been a lot of fun. So, I mean, I really think we came in and and was we had a small was it five of us, seven of us at the time? Small staff. So now we're a it's lot of fun to see God grow the ministry.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. That's awesome.
Zach Stephens:Zach, how about you? Introduce yourself. So my name is Zach Stephens. I'm the associate pastor at Groton Bible Chapel, that's probably a title very common to a lot of the listeners. The number two there, I came in really focused on connections.
Zach Stephens:But at this point in time, I preach about a third of the time, which is unique to our model. I oversee a bunch of our staff, family ministry, all the Sunday morning team, and then I oversee adult education in the church.
Joel Wayne:Okay. So So as you're doing that, you started in what now? As associate, you're there, but you started in connection.
Zach Stephens:So I came in mainly driving connections and building out groups and aligning all of our we have ministries running in tons of different directions. And so adding alignment, syncing things up, moving to that kind of model where everyone's pushing in the same direction. And my job description like yours, it's I've been there eight years. It's evolved every year so. I feel like it changes a
Luke Bilberry:little bit. It's the other duties as assigned. Like, that's the key bullet
Joel Wayne:point pilot.
Zach Stephens:In the job description. That's always there. Listen.
Joel Wayne:We don't even put it at the bottom. We put it at the top.
Zach Stephens:Primary responsibility. Anything assigned. Anything the lead pastor doesn't
Joel Wayne:wanna do. The oh, okay. So you're carrying some baggage. We'll have counseling for you later on. I'll talk to Gary Campbell, your your lead pastor.
Joel Wayne:No. That's great. So I because I I know there's a lot of people listening to this that they're not in the church, but there are so many people who are serving at in a second seat role, and they have the opportunity. Because I know for me personally that the gift that your role brings to me and the ministry and even with businesses, the right second seat individual is enormous. And I know it doesn't get spoken about enough.
Joel Wayne:So what are some of the for you guys, what are some of the blessings? What are some of the things that you go, man, I love being in a second seat because Mhmm. And let's let's talk about that some
Zach Stephens:That's fun.
Joel Wayne:Because I think that's Absolutely. A good question.
Zach Stephens:Yeah. Yeah. So I I love the seat that I'm in, and I've we had people over the when we bought our house in the place of Rutt And Groton, we had people come up to us saying, that means you're staying. Right? Because people had thought you come in as a number two.
Zach Stephens:It it you're you want to jump into that lead chair. And for us, the blessing has been one having a voice and then and having an increasing voice and how things work, getting exposed in a healthy ministry context to how things operate. But at the same time, the buck doesn't stop with me. And there's a protective element because other people ultimately bear that burden. And so I've been in the second share in a safe place.
Zach Stephens:One, I have six kids. Like my my oldest is 10, have a lot of family responsibilities. And so to be able to grow, to serve the church, to learn how to be a pastor, to learn how to lead well in a growing, thriving environment, but to not bear the same level of responsibility like you do Mhmm. Has been for me. Like, it's it's felt like a safe place to grow.
Zach Stephens:Yeah. That's what I've loved about this.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And the the way that I would kind of interact with that word, it's my job is fun. Because at the end of the day, there is there is an authority level that that I don't bear. I bear this spiritual mantle that I want it to go well. I want to see the ministry thrive.
Luke Bilberry:I want to see the visions and strategies accomplished. But at the end of the day, I kind of get to live in this place of joy because I'm just in the in the people work and there is some levels of checks and balances. Hey, Joel, you know, hey, Mike, our executive pastor, they create a sandbox and I just get to have a ton of fun in ministry. And so that's been honestly one of the biggest blessings is because I know if I were to step into that lead seat, the ministry would not be as effective because the way I'm wired, the giftings I have. Can I part for a season put on maybe some lead pastor or, you know, you know, president of an organization type tendencies?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. But my natural default is always going to come back this way. Yeah. And so that that being in that safe or that fun space lets you really do the the people work and the development work, the fleshing out of the dreams and visions. And I assume that would probably also be kind of a weird thing because you step into ministry to do all this other work.
Luke Bilberry:But as you ministry grows and leadership responsibilities grow, there's you're bringing in other people, you know, associate pastors and things like that, that it's a it is a beautiful tension to be the the lead voice and then the supporting, you know, actors in in the job is it's a fun tension always kind of navigate.
Joel Wayne:Well, want already something that you introed with in terms of you've changed jobs four or five times since you've been here in a decade. And then you've changed roles as well up in Connecticut. And the reality is the guy looked at you and said, hey, you bought a house. Good. That means you're staying.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. So what we've done with you and really what your church has done with you is I think they recognize your giftings. And so they've allowed you to change. I think churches struggle to do this. Companies struggle to do this.
Joel Wayne:That we want people to grow, but we don't have a role for them if they grow outside of their current position. Right. And I think that's incredibly sad in many regards because they already have a knowledge of the company. They already understand your DNA and your culture. They already understand what your call is.
Joel Wayne:They honor already understand really what your ultimate goal is. Right. So let them change. That's what we do with our people.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Joel Wayne:If they already have all those other why would I not let them change their role to to match the gifting as they've grown in the Lord? And that's what you've done. Right?
Zach Stephens:Yeah. We have we're constantly reassessing. And, actually, this year, we're recodifying job descriptions across multiple departments because just naturally doing your job, the passions, the needs of the church change, you fill those needs, and then your job kind of changes. And every now and again, it's helpful to actually put it on paper and to codify it a little bit like, hey, just so you know, these are the expectations. But it's it's been fun for the role to adjust to the passions and the talents and as I grow.
Zach Stephens:And the other thing too is it's possible for things to become stale. When you do the same exact thing and then the ministry can possibly And so as your role evolves and other people enter into those places, like they take them to new heights if you're able to release them. That's a beautiful thing.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. It's it's kind of one of those and maybe I'm dating myself here a little bit, but the and probably Joel, you and I, some of the churches we grew up in, there's a standard model. There's a lead pastor. There's a music minister that's probably like a part time or no
Joel Wayne:pay Associate slash music slash youth or something. Right.
Luke Bilberry:And if the church grew enough, yeah, your associate was it was kind of your catchall adult education, discipleship, Sunday school programs, youth ministry, and that was kind of the model in churches. And still today, most of the churches, you know, one hundred and twenty is still the average sized church in America in that range. And so it doesn't necessarily afford like these new ways of thinking. But then if we ask those questions, if we're not seeing our roles change and or the ministry's growing, healthy things should grow. Right?
Luke Bilberry:And so we should be continually reevaluating and reassessing. It'd be like me taking my eight year old kid and, you know, hey, go play baseball. And he keeps growing up. You still got to keep wearing the same baseball cleats, Like, eventually something's not gonna work right
Joel Wayne:because People are gonna start hurting.
Luke Bilberry:Healthy things should grow. Right?
Zach Stephens:But even in that smaller church environment, raising up a high capacity volunteer to occupy something that you've had for a while to free you up to go into the next thing.
Luke Bilberry:It opens up possibilities for for growth or movement, whatever.
Joel Wayne:Absolutely. So let's see this. So those are some of the nuances, some of the good. You don't have to carry that final burden. I was just saying earlier with Zach.
Joel Wayne:I the the reality is in in at least church, and I think this should be for any believer, it doesn't matter where you are working. Anything good goes to the glory of the father. Amen. Anything bad goes to my desk.
Zach Stephens:Better yours than mine. No.
Joel Wayne:I mean, that's just the reality of it. You know, we were talking about, Hey, this such and such didn't do something. That still falls to my desk. Well, did I hold him accountable in the right way? Right?
Joel Wayne:You know, so that's the reality Well, of one of the
Luke Bilberry:things that, I mean, we just walked through kind of a scenario yesterday because I've heard you often say, Joel, I don't ever wanna be surprised. I don't know. I ever wanna be caught off guard, but it's this tension that I know you trust me to to handle certain situations and and with grace and with love and with truth and with strength and all those things. However, I still have this responsibility to bring it up to you. And I personally feel that tension to be like, Hey, this is low in brain capacity.
Luke Bilberry:But because you've asked, I'm telling you something, just so that you're aware of it. And I personally feel like I sometimes feel like a bad teammate and a bad friend because I'm like, I know this is going to sort of stress you out, but at the end of the day, you need to be aware of these things or team dynamics or here's what's happening in the life of a family at the church. And I, as in the second chair role, sometimes feel like I'm adding burden to you.
Joel Wayne:That's to the second seat person real quick. Because the reality you know, how many years we've been working together for a decade now. And and I look at it and I say, listen. Leadership's about taking kidney shots. Yeah.
Joel Wayne:But, man, if you don't tell me what's coming, that kidney shot's a lot a lot more difficult to take when I'm not flexed at
Luke Bilberry:all. Right.
Joel Wayne:Right? And so having knowledge of it allows me time to pray, allows me time to to prepare for what might be coming. It doesn't matter if it's justified. Right. It's called leading people.
Joel Wayne:We're all broken, every one of us. So that's why I don't like the surprises because the kidney shot's going to come.
Luke Bilberry:Right.
Joel Wayne:That's just called leadership. Right? So it's an important thing. But I want to I want to do this. What are some of the challenges of of of being in the seat that you guys get to occupy?
Joel Wayne:I know the blessing of it. I know that you say you have some protection. You get to play in your sandbox with your little toys and Let's go. Little whatever you do
Zach Stephens:with water on top of
Joel Wayne:it on the sand castle.
Zach Stephens:I mean, David had to wait in the cave while he while he waited.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. So but he's a bougie. He's a little bit better than that. He's a little bougie. He's he's gonna do his thing.
Joel Wayne:He's gonna fish or whatever. Yes. Amen. Let's go. But what are some of the challenges?
Joel Wayne:Let's talk about that.
Luke Bilberry:All right. Yeah. I mean, I think some of the challenges I know for me personally, whenever you map out a vision, for me, one of the things that I am in real time currently, I'm like, all right, I see that. I believe that that is possible. Like, I know the team can do it.
Luke Bilberry:I know the church will be stoked to advance the kingdom that way. And so I want to quickly take vision and put it into practical like, here we go right now. So I immediately want to start rallying the troops and say, all right, hey, Joel and the elders are talking about this and I'm like, here, all right, if we do boom, boom, boom, boom. But what I'm realizing sometimes it's either a timing issue and or it may be because those in flight adjustments that need to happen, I may actually be a few degrees off of like the plumb line of where we need to go. And so I may actually begin to bring a little disunity.
Joel Wayne:Bit of drift.
Zach Stephens:Yeah, a
Joel Wayne:little drift.
Luke Bilberry:And I know our heart is we're aligned on that and the purpose. And you've often said, you know, Luke, I trust you in your decision making, even if you make a mistake because I know you're earnest and trying to hit towards this goal. But if not, if I go too fast or I make decisions too soon, or I bring my teams in too early in the process, I may have to do some, the course correction may have to be greater than it actually needs to be. So that's one of the things I've realized in my leadership in following and serving you is timing, pace, and knowing when to bring the right people in because we're a high collaboration organization. And that's there's so much good about that.
Luke Bilberry:There's
Zach Stephens:also some
Joel Wayne:business that there
Luke Bilberry:can be trouble with it because It's everyone has
Joel Wayne:a greatest weakness. The collaboration piece is real. I have to say to you, and probably I need to say it more often, is I'm saying, hey. I'm because we're highly collaborative here. Right, Zach?
Joel Wayne:So I have to say, hey. I'm just verbal processing. Yeah. Don't run anywhere with this. I need your I need your because I I think we have a team of individuals who are eager to serve.
Joel Wayne:Absolutely. Like, they they wanna jump into it and run and go, which is fantastic. However, sometimes this verbal processing, is this the right thing? And then they go tell everybody, I'm like, wait, we're not there yet, man. You just created some issues.
Joel Wayne:But they do it from a good place. And then it's hard to even get upset with them.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so I think that's one of the one of the challenges that that I've I've I'm currently learning in this environment. And it's just kind of at the same time, knowing when my preferences are at the forefront. Like this is, I have a strong opinion about something and when to know, does this matter? Do I need to like, hey, I know you trust me.
Luke Bilberry:I need you to listen to me. I need you to more often than not, that usually ends up becoming my preference. Once I pray about it more, once I slow down enough, I end up realizing that that's probably more of my own own bend and I'm going to cause problems. And so that that would be another kind of challenge.
Joel Wayne:How about you, Zach?
Zach Stephens:Yeah. So I relate to so much of what you just said. And I had to learn a little bit the hard way. You know, that that good change is often slow change because I just like to get into a place and break things. And
Joel Wayne:Yes.
Zach Stephens:And I've had Wow.
Joel Wayne:And I'm not going to let you guys spend time together alone.
Zach Stephens:And I mean, I entered into a church that had been around a hundred years, Plymouth Brethren background. And there were just some things that were very, very fixed in the culture. And so it is and there have been several times in my conversation with our lead pastor Gary, where he said something very similar where I'm go, go, go. And he's like, oh, we're not ready yet. Like the the elders haven't finalized this.
Zach Stephens:Like the the we have to process through dot dot dot first. And and so there's that. But in those particular instances and what you described as an alignment of vision. And so that's a pacing issue. Yep.
Zach Stephens:I think something that number twos will often face as well is sometimes a misalignment of vision where you genuinely, you see the vision that's cast for the church or even just tactics. The vision may be the same, but the tactics, how you tactically approach is different. And so the all of that is laid out and you think to yourself, my way would be better. Like, if they would just do it my way, it would happen faster. There'd be less hiccups like you can imagine long term.
Zach Stephens:And I think that's a real, like, sentiment that number twos will feel. And the thing about that is knowing, like, who you're there to support and ultimately what that submission looks like. And you wanna be collaborative. You always wanna voice what it is that you're feeling with with your supervisor, with your lead pastor. Like, you want the collaborative environments to foster those conversations.
Zach Stephens:But at the end of the day, like, being able to navigate that and being able to just kind of submit to, hey, I'm in this place. I'm blessed to be in this place. God has clearly set leaders, lead pastor, elders in place to carry out their vision. And I have to submit to that. Does that make sense?
Joel Wayne:It does. And I love that you think you're always right. That's not at all.
Zach Stephens:Not at all.
Luke Bilberry:Kinda I mean, I as someone who
Luke Bilberry:would resonate, then, yes, we are right. And
Luke Bilberry:but we humbly submit that.
Zach Stephens:I just see I just see that it's different. There have been occasions I don't know if I could think of off the top of my head. There have been occasions where I've realized, oh, I'm so glad that they did it that way instead. Yeah. I'm so glad they didn't do it my way.
Luke Bilberry:I think that's one of the things, Zach, like whenever it feels weird because I'm not about to talk about I'm about to talk about you in front of you. But I think that's one of the things, Zach, that I've realized for me personally, if I was in charge, if I was in the lead seat, there are sometimes that Joel makes a unique pivot that like, I'm like, I didn't see that coming because I put something in my mind in a strategic plan like, hey, this makes sense. A plus B is going to yield C. And then somewhere out of left field, here he comes with, hey, we're going to get to Z this way. And I'm like, how do we go to A to Z without all these steps?
Luke Bilberry:And it's normally like around like staffing, man, should we hire? Should we release? And all of sudden out of nowhere, you come up with this like grace filled other than plan, but left to my own devices, I would have been boom, boom, boom. And you've caught me off guard numbers of times. I'm like, man, that was the right that was the right path.
Luke Bilberry:I didn't see that coming. And it's been that's one of the, I guess, the great humbling pieces of it is to say, I trust that in you, you know, knowing knowing your lead pastor as well, that that's why you that's why you're still with him after eight years. Right? Like I there's something that I see God has cautious using this word because sometimes in certain circles, but there's an anointing on his life and his leadership and what God's doing in his life and the way he's gifted and wired me that I'm going to humbly submit to his leadership. I'm going to because there's something I believe God's going to speak to him differently, left but to my own devices, I'm gonna I'm gonna run this into the ground.
Joel Wayne:Oh,
Luke Bilberry:yeah. Not Well, and I know
Joel Wayne:the I know the beauty of that. I know what it means to the number one because what I'd like what I'd to do because we could go through this a lot, but I just really wanna encourage the listener because they're either, every one of them are in a lead role or a supporting role. The irony, I think if you love Jesus, you're in a no matter what, you're in a serving role. Right. Everything is service.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. Right? So I get to serve you and the other people on the team as you guys are also serving me. Let's talk. Let's just rattle off.
Joel Wayne:We're going play that game. Rattle off some things that you need from both both seats in order for it to work because your lead, Gary Campbell, is a good friend of mine, amazing man of God. I know how you guys work well together. I know his respect that he has of you. Yeah.
Joel Wayne:He wants your voice in his life. I want your voice in my life. Right? So what are some things that are required in both in either direction? You can go, man, I need I need that guy pointing at me to make sure that they are boom, boom, boom, boom.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. Either either way, like, so one, trust.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. For sure.
Joel Wayne:I I do trust you. Right? And and I think that's a big thing. And I think humility. Trust and humility is everything.
Joel Wayne:Yours is not the only way, Zach Stephens. There
Zach Stephens:are far better ways. So a couple of things come to mind. So one, it's really and we were just talking about generationally how millennials tend to need a why before they get a what. As an associate pastor, as a number two, it's really, really helpful when the lead is communicating the why behind things because it allows us the flexibility in our decision making to not have to go to you for everything because we understand the why. It frees them up in their decision making.
Zach Stephens:But then two, it's really helpful when the lead pastor takes time to get buy in from the people who are supporting them as opposed to offering them the ultimate decision and just treating them more or less as coordinators within the church. Here's what you're going to do when people's input are solicited. Even if you don't go with their input, like you feel heard. And then number twos are just way more likely to be bought into whatever the vision is.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah. It's some of the things that we talk about, it usually ends up time is how we how we get to the why. So if we spend if if there are seasons where we're running really, really hard and I'm pushing on this and, Joel, you're pushing on that, then that's where some of that the why begins to drift a little bit. And so that I know we've talked about that, hey.
Luke Bilberry:We need to make sure we've had, you know, x y z times, whether it's a coffee or we've gone on walks before and things like that, just to say, Hey, all right, I need to I need to download from you so then I can help pull into things. So that's one of them. And then there's this idea, because I know you trust me, but just to name it for is, actually as leaders, do we trust our people down the line? Because if we begin to, you know, business words would be micromanaging those things.
Zach Stephens:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:And that there is no there's no life in that because you don't actually trust me to execute the tasks that you've set out. And in doing so, you're not able to focus on the things that we, the ministry, believe that God has called you to focus on. And we see that throughout scripture, right? That's when the disciples say, hey, we need to we need to raise up some deacons to serve and wait the tables so that the ministry, the care of the church happens so that the disciples can focus on what are we doing with this thing and how do we listen to Holy Spirit through the word and through prayer so that we can teach, instruct and baptize more believers. But we also realize we need to care for orphans
Joel Wayne:and we got to do those
Luke Bilberry:things, too. All these things matter. And so if you trust me, Joel, you know, this is that's not the job right now, to care for the orphans and widows and to serve the tables over here. But yet you keep dropping in. No, no, no.
Luke Bilberry:Like, you need to do this. Then me as a number two, I'm like, here you go, buddy. Why don't you come do this? Because I'm not doing it the way
Joel Wayne:that The you want struggle with that is as as any organization grows, the leadership styles of the leader has to shift. Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:That's a
Joel Wayne:good word. And that's the struggle because you learn a particular leadership style. Yeah. And, you know, I know I've I've had to change. I work really hard.
Joel Wayne:I'm I still fail at it regularly. And you'll tell me, but fail at trying to change that leadership style. So when when we were a certain size organization, when you're small, I would just kinda say, hey, guys. I'm thinking this. What do you think?
Joel Wayne:Mhmm. I can't do that anymore. Right. So but I still want collaboration. So the way you collaborate according to size and scale has to change.
Joel Wayne:If you're waiting for it, does it remain the way it's always been? You're the limiter in any organization. Yeah. If you're waiting for it to remain the way it's always been, you're the limiter. Right.
Joel Wayne:So I I used to bring things like I have an idea. Now I have a rule. I bring things to the leadership 80 baked. Yeah. This is what I'm processing.
Joel Wayne:This is what I'm thinking. We know our call. We know our purpose. What do you guys think? And I kind of give them an understanding what that is.
Joel Wayne:Yes, no, like, oh, yeah, we could do it like this. Okay, let's go. So the collaboration looks different according to size and scale. Yeah. And if you can bring that humility, that trust, I would say that ingenuity Mhmm.
Joel Wayne:Into an organization. Man, you're a blessing. I'm telling you right now. Zach, what were you gonna say?
Zach Stephens:I don't even remember.
Joel Wayne:Okay. Well, that's fantastic.
Zach Stephens:Thank you lost in all the wisdom you do.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. Well, it
Luke Bilberry:just reminds me like a little bit too, Jalal, like keeps coming back in my mind. And you said it earlier, at the end of the day, we all are in places to serve one another, one another, because that's what Jesus modeled, right, for us in Philippians two, that he denied himself, humbled himself even to the point of death. And you do that, you know, there's been times like you're one of the first guys out there that's shoveling snow, right, on a snowy day here at the church. Even though there's an amazing team of people that are taking care of that, you're joining you're joining with them. You're not responsible for
Joel Wayne:But you know, has nothing to do with shoveling snow.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Absolutely. It's a leadership. It's about relationship. It's about modeling what it means to be Christ like.
Luke Bilberry:And it reminds me too of, you know, when holding up the arms of Moses, right? That's at the end of the day, I've heard you say that about the, like the ministry and the friendships that you have with other churches. You want to help hold up their arms. And I know that for us is number two at the end of the day. And I've told you, man, I'm just gonna I'm following you.
Luke Bilberry:I'm I'm gonna follow you wherever wherever you point the point the ship. I'm going follow you in that direction. And my, my job, which that didn't even sound like a job, my joy, my opportunity is just to try to hold up your arms. So, Hey, what do you need? What do you need today?
Luke Bilberry:What's on the radar? And if that's the case, all right. If you want to pivot everything sweet, we're in. If you want things to, you know, keep kind of carving out this channel for ministry, I'm in. All right, let's go.
Luke Bilberry:So I
Zach Stephens:think there may be a temptation for some of the number twos listening to think that like the value is in the ideas. And for the lead pastor, especially they've been there for years. So much of the value of what they bring into your church is the relational equity, the time they've spent shepherding and pastoring. And you come in, especially if you're new and you're like, I have these ideas. And to submit those to the way that things happen in the church.
Zach Stephens:Again, good change is often slow change. That takes a level of humility that will be not just good for you, but really, really good for the church because you need to take the time to get to know how the church operates, to get to know the people, to minister so that you can see that you're ministering to them. And the idea is ultimately, like, they will come to fruition through leadership and through those through those discussions and collaborations. But that takes time.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. And I'm gonna just for the sake of fun, I'm gonna push a little bit against the idea of good change is slow change. I think that's what you're saying.
Zach Stephens:I can nuance that more.
Joel Wayne:Well, I would say good change is relational change. Good change is communication. Good chain because, you know, I remember years and years ago, a guy came to me, and we're changing the church, and it was growing. And he's like, Joel, if if the trolley goes too fast, people can't get on. And then I looked at him and said, if the trolley goes too slow, I'm gonna get off and take a taxi.
Joel Wayne:And so you have to recognize there's a both and. Healthy change isn't always about pace. Very quickly, Jesus Christ came in and changed the entire world. In three years. And and I go, and yet we can take fifteen years to change a discipleship model in a church or to to vote on the wall color of a of a fellowship hall.
Joel Wayne:And I and and I go, wait a second. I understand what you're saying, Zach, a 100%. But the healthier your leadership is, the healthier the trust factor is, the healthier the communication is, the quicker you can make the change that we need to do so that we are assuming we can lead
Zach Stephens:a move from all those people.
Joel Wayne:Because if it if it's always about we gotta take a while, you become about you're an individual who's here to lead an organization rather than lead a movement. Yeah. Because we know that if it's a move of God, you can't control it. So, man, I mean, it's pretty dynamic.
Luke Bilberry:So if
Joel Wayne:you give one last word as we wrap up on this to the guy that is in that second seat, hey, I would I would encourage you to go and what? What would you say to them, both of you? Luke, I'll start with you. A
Luke Bilberry:quick little nuance. I think one of the things to get to that statement, Joel, is I'm reminded of just kind of how how you've led and have given space. And it and it I I feel like I just need to name it is there's that business book guy, Patrick, what's his name, or Les McEwen. And it talks about just that team approach where if you have a visionary and an operator and a processor and a synergist. And so for the number two to understand their wiring and their role in that's in in any support role, Are you wired more as a visionary than, hey, you need to know, then you're probably gonna run into some conflict with the the lead person.
Luke Bilberry:If you're if your vision is not fully aligned with his, then you're going to try to create something different because it's hardwired in you. God has made you to be a creator of things. If you're an operator, meaning that person like you say, tear down that wall, and I've got a sledgehammer and I should start whatever it takes, and then we'll count the costs later. Or if you're a processor, that person who's looking at spreadsheets and you're making sure all all the things checks and balance or you're that synergist, I think that's where I found a lot of freedom is in your encouragement in me to step into the way God has wired me. And I do believe when I look at kind of that as a framework, I'm definitely more that synergist.
Luke Bilberry:I know when when you're not in the when you're, you know, off doing something with Be the Church in another country, I love to kind of step into that visionary role to say, alright, here's the vision. How are we pulling it down? There's other seasons, man, it's time we got to work and operate and process through this. And so I've lived in that synergist role to try to see the values of that. And there was which is, you know, because we were slim pickings.
Luke Bilberry:There was a time I was in charge of the budget, which is crazy.
Joel Wayne:Yeah, right. It only lasted three hours. Okay. There It we
Zach Stephens:was more than that,
Luke Bilberry:but it's not wrong. But it's living into that way you've been wired. And then I would believe, Joel, a healthy, vibrant, good number one, a good key leader, they're wanting to invest into me that way. And so I can actually step with confidence and step with joy, bringing whatever the best that I have, as long as I'm humble, as long as I'm desiring to serve the ministry and ultimately serve Jesus, whether I'm in a business world or a ministry world or a home family context, we're all in that servant role, but live into the way God's wired you. So if you're an operator, don't try to be a processor.
Luke Bilberry:If you're a processor, it's okay to not be the guy that has all the ideas. Like you don't need to have the visionary ideas.
Joel Wayne:Simple way of saying it, make sure you're on the right seat. Yeah. You're in the right seat on the bus.
Luke Bilberry:And just bring it. Bring it. Bring the best of it. Bring the fullness of it.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. Zach, what would those final words be from you, man?
Zach Stephens:I would specifically to the number twos who eventually see themselves being a lead pastor because I'm sure there's a number of them out there. I would say that it's easy to look around and to to to maybe you look at your lead pastor and you say, I could do that. And if you focus and dwell on the I coulds, it'll lead to discontent. And I would instead focus on the I shoulds, which is all about calling. There's so much of a That's
Joel Wayne:a good word, man.
Zach Stephens:There's so much blessing in being in the number two. And I think about Jesus took thirty years to prep for a three year ministry. You know? There's nothing wrong with taking ten, fifteen years, maybe more for some, but to to spend quality time in the number two seat to grow, to learn, to prepare for what might be another ten or twenty years in a lead role later on. And there's no one can take anything away from you if you do that.
Zach Stephens:Yeah.
Joel Wayne:Yeah. That's really, really powerful. That's good. Man, so guys, thank you so much for joining us. My prayer really is for you, no matter where you are in your organization, that you would recognize the humility that you need to carry, the trust you need to carry, that you would foster that responsibility of saying, hey, I should, not only I could, and that you would step in in a way that would be Christ exalting and Christ honoring.
Joel Wayne:So go be the hands and feet of Jesus. It doesn't matter where you're working and make sure you live out your strengths, your gifting, and do everything you can to promote the name of Jesus Christ. Well, hello.
Zach Stephens:Oh my god.
Luke Bilberry:I just I just did that just to screw with you. I'm sorry.