Ep 031: Building Resilience in Kids and Nurturing A Growth Mindset as a Modern Dad with Jeevan Balani

In this episode, Jeevan explores the challenges and joys of parenting, highlighting the importance of building resilience in children while allowing them to discover their unique identities. He shares personal experiences and insights gained from conversations with Jennie and Papa Rick, shedding light on the intricacies of raising children in a rapidly changing world.

Building Resilience

• Timestamp: 05:29.549
  • Jeevan reflects on how challenges and joys in parenting are interconnected. The perspective we choose determines our experience.
• Timestamp: 05:57.113
  • Resilience is top of mind for Jeevan. He shares his background growing up in Jamaica and his concern about making life too comfortable for his children. He emphasizes the importance of children facing adversity to build resilience.

Navigating Adversity

• Timestamp: 06:51.089
  • Jeevan discusses the challenge of giving children opportunities to build resilience in a changing world. He shares his approach to encouraging persistence and exploring discomfort outside their comfort zones.

Embracing Life's Challenges

• Timestamp: 11:58.421
  • Jennie highlights the idea that everyone faces adversity in life. She emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence and understanding the emotions behind behavior.

Rethinking Resilience

• Timestamp: 13:25.357
  • Jeevan reflects on his upbringing and the influence of his culture on his view of resilience. He discusses the challenge of adjusting his parenting approach from a "push through it" mentality to one that includes compassion and empathy.

Present Parenting

• Timestamp: 15:17.481
  • Jeevan emphasizes the importance of physical presence in parenting and shares his decision to prioritize time with his children. He acknowledges the challenge of balancing presence and fostering independence.

Empathy and Boundaries

• Timestamp: 18:30.973
  • Jeevan discusses his knee-jerk reaction to his daughter's adversity and his evolving approach to empathizing with her emotions while maintaining boundaries. He explores the idea of setting boundaries with empathy.

Seeking Feedback

• Timestamp: 22:51.398
  • Jennie shares her personal experience with setting boundaries and seeking feedback as a child. She highlights the importance of finding a balance between empathy and firmness.

Allowing Exploration

• Timestamp: 24:31.041
  • Jeevan shares his experience with introducing his daughter to different activities and the importance of letting children explore their interests. He reflects on the significance of allowing them to make choices.

Exploring Identity

• Timestamp: 27:30.493
  • The discussion shifts to exploring children's identity and interests, particularly in the context of gender-neutral activities and products. Jeevan shares his concern about gender biases.

Navigating Gender Stereotypes

• Timestamp: 35:20.233
  • Jeevan discusses the challenges of navigating gender stereotypes and shares his efforts to encourage his daughters to explore diverse interests. He highlights the importance of maintaining a balance.

Open Conversations

• Timestamp: 42:09.609
  • The importance of open conversations between parents and children is emphasized. Jeevan shares his approach to discussing his concerns with his daughters' interests while avoiding judgment.

Breaking Societal Norms

• Timestamp: 45:51.534
  • The discussion touches on societal expectations of masculinity and the importance of allowing children to be themselves. Jeevan reflects on the need for men to seek support and change stereotypes.

Dad Support Groups

• Timestamp: 50:02.589
  • Jeevan shares his observations about dad support groups and the challenges of activating and engaging fathers in these groups. He discusses societal expectations and the importance of seeking help.

Conclusion:
The episode concludes with a hopeful outlook on the evolving role of fathers in parenting and the importance of breaking down gender stereotypes to foster a more inclusive and supportive environment for children.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Jennifer Hayes

Host

Rick Hayes

Guest

Jeevan Balani

JB

Guest

Jeevan Balani

NL

Editor

Natalie Long

What is The Relational Parenting Podcast?

Welcome to the Relational Parenting Podcast! I’m Jennifer Hayes – a Parent Coach and 20 year Childcare Veteran. Each week I sit down with my own father (and cohost), Rick Hayes, and discuss the complicated issues that parents face today, as well as some of the oldest questions in the book. From the latest research and the framework of my Relational Parenting Method, we offer thought-provoking solutions to your deepest parenting struggles.
Relational Parenting is an evidence and experience based parenting method created by me - Jennie. After 20 years in the child care world, in every scenario you could possibly imagine, I realized one thing: EVERYONE was prioritizing the behavior and performance of a child over their emotional well-being. This frustrated me to no end and when I re-visited the latest research, I realized there was a better way. I started applying the principles I'd been learning in my own self-work, parent-child relationships, and partnerships, and I started gobbling up all the new research and books I could get my hands on. When I saw the results of putting these practices into play with the children I was taking care of - the difference in myself AND the kids I worked with was ASTOUNDING.
I am SO PROUD to be presenting Relational Parenting to the world. I can't wait to hear about your own journey. From Parents-to-be to the seasoned parenting veteran - there's something here for everyone!

Jennie (00:03.617)
I'm going to hit record. There everyone has a recording icon. So we are on. Awesome.

Papa Rick (00:11.393)
We kind of decided that last time too, because half the time the sidebar conversations are interesting too, you know, so I try to, she starts to, Jen tries to capture everything so we can make sound bites out of it. When we think we're off camera is when we get relaxed and interesting.

Jeevan (00:15.425)
you

Jeevan (00:24.703)
I like it.

Jeevan (00:30.517)
That's true.

Jennie (00:31.019)
Yeah.

Jennie (00:34.45)
Um, awesome. Well, welcome Jeevan. I am so excited that you are here with us to share a dad's perspective.

Jeevan (00:43.573)
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Papa Rick (00:44.836)
Yay. A modern dad's perspective.

Jennie (00:46.838)
Yeah. Yes, yes. Awesome. Well, Juvon, why don't we just jump in with like who you are and where you're coming from and your parenting, like where you're at in your parenting journey right now.

Jeevan (00:49.692)
We'll see how modern I am that others can judge that

Papa Rick (00:53.255)
Good.

Jeevan (01:11.506)
Yeah, I'll give the short version. So I have two girls, a recently turned eight-year-old and a two and a half-year-old. I live in the Bay Area with them and my wife. My mother-in-law lives with us as well and my parents are sort of down the street. So we have an extended family support system around us, which is tremendous. Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:34.349)
Very nice.

Jeevan (01:36.737)
And for work, my wife works at Metta doing marketing and I do marketing and growth work in the Bay Area where we live as well. In terms of where I am in the parent journey, I guess just a couple, maybe salient highlights. We spent a year living in LA and just moved back to the Bay Area. It was a foray into LA to be closer to my wife's family. And we enjoyed that journey, but our...

Jennie (01:51.82)
Hehehe

Jeevan (02:04.757)
particularly our older daughter was really yearning to be back in her old stomping grounds here in the Bay area. And so a big reason for our move back in addition to career stuff was, was primarily to put our daughters in an environment where we thought they would thrive.

Jennie (02:23.233)
Awesome.

Papa Rick (02:23.43)
Yeah, I'll bet LA is different. I can't, I've never lived in such an urban area. You know, I'm kind of small town, cornfield America myself. And so LA would be a would be a real culture shock for me too. I don't know how far you have to get from Hollywood, the Hollywood Hills or, you know, from downtown LA to have a middle American kind of life. But that would be that would be pretty crazy, I would think. But

Jeevan (02:51.409)
Yeah, and I think for them, some of it was that, but I think more than anything, they just had a support structure and a community that we had spent over a decade building here. And so taking them out of that, I think was sort of the main thing that they missed.

Papa Rick (03:04.981)
Yeah.

Jennie (03:11.85)
Yeah. So Jeevon, you and I met because you found me, I think you found me on LinkedIn, and you were starting, at the time you wanted to start a central hub for parents to find parenting resources and parent coaches.

Papa Rick (03:13.845)
Nice, nice.

Jeevan (03:21.769)
That's right.

Jennie (03:36.002)
And you and I kind of dove into that a little bit. You created a website and brought in some people who had been searching for parenting advice. And that's kind of gone on the back burner now, but all along the way, you've also helped, you've given me some tips for my website.

Jeevan (03:55.734)
That's right.

Jennie (04:00.47)
just different things for growth and for my marketing and all of that. And along the way I've learned a bit about your parenting journey and your parenting concerns and being a girl dad and all of those things and some of your history of your childhood as well and the things that you've been very conscious of shifting as you became a parent and a dad of girls. And...

kind of the questions that you ask yourself. So I would just, I would love to know kind of what are your top two or three parenting goals that you have right now being either goals or concerns, I guess, things that you're working with as a parent right now with a two and a half year old and an eight year old girl looking up to you.

Jeevan (04:51.169)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (04:59.773)
You know, I like that you said goals or concerns, because one of the things I have observed in my roughly eight-year parenting journey is that I can look at things from an aspirational point of view, right? Which is what is the joy I wanna cultivate in my children's lives and our family's life? And often I can also look at things, sort of the flip side of that, or like what are the things I'm most concerned and worried about? And those two things,

Jennie (05:03.445)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (05:29.549)
are essentially two sides of the same coin often. And I find that depending how I think about it, right? One can be a nerve wracking experience and then the other can be a joy eliciting experience. And so I do try to reframe some of my challenges and worries into a more positive, like what am I pursuing? So with that as sort of a context.

Jennie (05:32.738)
Right? Yeah.

Jeevan (05:57.113)
The first thing that's very top of mind for me is resilience. And we've talked a little bit about this. I grew up in Jamaica, in an Indian sort of household. And we've seen everybody's had their own shared adversity. I had my flavor of it. And you do everything in your power to give your kids a great life, much in the way I'm sure Rick, you've done for Jenny. And

Um, in that process, I guess the worry is that I've made things almost too easy, too comfortable, um, things that may be, um, that may feel like the unknown or an adversity type situation. It's hard for my children, particularly my eight year old to nap. I worry that it might be hard for her to navigate that.

Jennie (06:35.746)
Mm.

Jeevan (06:51.089)
Because she's not getting the reps in that so how do you build resilience unless you have the reps in? Navigating moments of adversity and I think you and I briefly talked about this at one point and something I think you pointed out to me and others have pointed out to me is that the adversity that my children will face the shape and the nature of that might be fundamentally different than the shape and nature of the diversity I faced and so I've worried less about that

Jennie (07:02.242)
Yeah.

Jeevan (07:20.889)
Um, but I am trying to give my kids opportunities to build resilience, right? Whether that is they're trying something and they want to give up. And I sort of try to be curious about why they want to give up and what would it look like if they kept trying. Um, I also think about what are things outside of their comfort zone I can introduce them to that, um, they will keep persisting on and so, so resilience I think is.

Jennie (07:44.662)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeevan (07:49.657)
is really top of mind. Before I go deeper, anything you want to touch on there?

Jennie (07:54.474)
I think what came up for me while you were talking was that just another level to the statement that their hardship, their adversity will just look different than yours. Just another layer to that is to say that life is always going to be hard for anyone, no matter who you are. There's always going to be hurdles or things. Because we all have...

we're all thinking and emotional beings. And our experience of the world comes from inside of us, not outside of us. So it's not the situation that we're in, it's our experience and mindset towards that situation that determines how we feel about it. And in emotional intelligence work, and a lot of what I do teach parents with relational parenting is, we're looking at the emotion or the need behind a behavior. And...

emotions, how we feel about a situation is always going to be the thing we have to overcome. Just like you said that the goal and the concern are two sides of the same coin and depending on which side of that coin I focus on determines how I feel about it. I think that with our children, like you said, their adversity will look different, but they will have adversity. They will have something to overcome.

because we always have something to overcome in our internal landscape.

Jeevan (09:25.405)
Yeah, that resonates. I think that's something that's taken me a longer time to fully acknowledge and internalize, but I see it more and more. You know, I mean, COVID being a classic example, even the social structures that exist today, you know, just a lot of the way they interact and engage in society, I think is fundamentally different than, than when I was growing up. So I think what you're saying is spot on.

Jennie (09:38.923)
Right?

Jennie (09:58.766)
Uh oh, dad we can't hear you.

You hit your mute button.

Papa Rick (10:03.05)
Oh, there are my back. I accidentally hit my boot meet button. I'm going to get that out of frame so you can't tell me when I tell when I bump in my button here. Sorry. I coughed once and didn't get it back on. Sorry. On the other hand, you can't hear when I talk underneath you either. So that's a mixed blessing. One thing I have a tendency to go, uh-huh, uh-huh. I'm working on it.

Jeevan (10:04.285)
Yes, I hear you now.

Jeevan (10:11.273)
All good.

Jennie (10:21.15)
I wondered why it was so quiet.

Jeevan (10:23.973)
Hahaha!

Papa Rick (10:29.873)
You said, you said, uh, one thing you would look, you look at things from both sides, right? Two sides of a coin. You know, that's a real, that's a. Aren't most, aren't most mathematical formulas when you listen to Neil deGrasse Tyson talk, you know, all the, all the great physics stuff is supposed to work forwards and backwards. That's a philosophical technique, you know, to look at the reverse and make sure thing it's a way of making sure things make sense, you know, it's like, and then, and then the thought was.

I resonate with your experience of, well, here's my upbringing. It was not quite the arena, the circumstances I was raising my kids in. And so then you have to kind of extract the values. Well, what did I like? What don't I want to like? And what don't I want to recreate? And, and then how do you, how do you make that go forward? Once you've got a goal, then there's the.

the dad job, the parenting job of, okay, let's try to steer through the circumstances to create the experience you want. You know, how much resilience, how do you create that if it's not, you know, if there aren't bears and wolves prowling around to help build that, you know, how much do you need in the modern world? What's modern resilience look like, you know, compared to, I think that's, those are all, that's such a, that's such a parenting situation.

you know, where you're trying to figure out what to do for your kids. I really admire that.

Jeevan (11:53.825)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (11:58.421)
I appreciate that. Yeah, I think what you're saying connects a lot to what Jenny's saying about sort of the, you know, Jenny's point about the adversity looking different and everybody's gonna face adversity. And to your point that arena may not be bears and physical dangers per se, but it's different. And I think part of my journey is examining

Papa Rick (12:18.378)
Yeah, you know.

Jeevan (12:26.785)
some of my preconceived biases about the right way to build resilience, right? And that's very difficult for me because a lot of how I was raised was, okay, you face an adversity, you just run through that wall. That's what you do, right? It was less about compassion and empathy and let's talk about it. It was more like, you know, go into my brother who is 10 years younger than me. So it's a big gap between us.

Jennie (12:31.822)
Hmm... Uh-huh...

Papa Rick (12:32.916)
Exactly.

Papa Rick (12:43.657)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (12:44.011)
Yeah.

Jeevan (12:56.593)
And he will readily point out that in some ways, I was like a sort of pseudo father figure. I did that with him when he was younger, when he wanted to, he wanted to learn how to swim. Rather than me being empathetic as a bigger brother, I just threw him in the pool and said, figure it out. He remembers this. Yeah. You brought it up to me the other day. Exactly.

Papa Rick (12:56.811)
Okay.

Papa Rick (13:13.837)
Pusha in the pool.

Jennie (13:14.83)
I'm sorry.

Papa Rick (13:18.337)
That's a great resilience builder. You lived, right? You know, what's the problem with my approach? You lived. I love that.

Jeevan (13:25.357)
Exactly. And I totally forgot this, but he brought it up to me the other day. And it is something I find challenging, which is when my eight-year-old encounters adversity and she's feeling challenged by it, she'll come to me and she might be in tears. And I have this knee-jerk reaction in my mind that I subdue of like, it's okay, push through it, push through it. And I'm

Jennie (13:53.442)
Mm.

Jeevan (13:53.993)
trying to evolve and learn that may not be the best response. There is a way to empathize and explore her emotions. At the same time to be fully transparent, I struggle with how much is too much. Like at what point do you just say, Hey, it's tough, but like, we're not going to keep having this conversation of nurturing it and just go, go do it. And

going, tying it back a little bit to your point, Jenny, about some of my parenting philosophies, you know, one thing that is pretty important to me is being present for my children. And that means physical presence. So up until my wife was pregnant with our first, I used to travel for work every week. And when we got close to my first being born, I switched careers. And the number one reason was I want to be physically there. A lot of parenting happens serendipitously.

I can't just plan for us to have quality time. She serendipitously will bring something up important, at breakfast or on the way to soccer practice, whatever it is. And I sometimes think, I mean, we've talked about this before Jenny as well, which is I took time off work and quit my job and just spent 100% of my time with my older one for a while. Did that with my younger one too.

Papa Rick (14:50.122)
Yes.

Jennie (14:50.348)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jennie (14:58.932)
Yeah.

Jeevan (15:17.481)
And I've been so physically present for my children. And I see that sometimes they want my presence around. I sometimes worry, have I created a dependence, right? That they don't know how, they're not building that dependence, independence. And so it just goes back to this thing of like, all of my philosophies, there's some little worry underneath it that I have to pressure test.

Papa Rick (15:22.068)
Excellent.

Jennie (15:26.722)
Hmm.

Jennie (15:41.61)
Yes. And I think there is a balance to strike. If the exact same highly emotional reaction or fear to a specific situation happens, for me, it was karate. I would constantly have fears and

Papa Rick (15:43.132)
Yeah, yeah, there's shade. There's, there's, yes.

Jennie (16:11.746)
training and things. And one day we told this story on one of the other episodes, you know, both my dad and my mom were sitting there and being empathetic and whatever. And the final thing at the end of that conversation after validating my emotions and having had this conversation a million times was, so here's the deal. Either you go to karate tonight or you are making the choice to give up karate.

If it's this, if it's causing this much turmoil for you, maybe it's not the right thing for you. And that, when it became like, we love you, we understand this is hard, and you can't keep doing this. Either you're torturing yourself or you're torturing us, and you need to make a choice. And it was kind of like, when they asked me that question, like, are you going or are you quitting karate? I was like, oh, well, I'm going.

obviously. And I just needed someone to give me that perspective of like, here's the thing. You can't live in this mode of like torturing yourself emotionally. And you can't live in this in between place where someone is constantly having to manage you in order to get you to go do this thing that you said you want to do. And so I think there is a healthy balance and there is a

Papa Rick (17:13.581)
consequence.

Jeevan (17:29.374)
Yeah.

Jennie (17:37.026)
to indulgent, because we can, as human beings, indulge in our emotions. We can spiral down into it and set up camp there, right? Especially if we're getting empathy and attention for it. And so I think that there is a way, I'd be interested to see if you have an example where you've had to set that boundary with one of your girls.

Jeevan (17:56.565)
right?

Jennie (18:06.822)
ever when it comes to like, okay, what, how much empathy and understanding is too much.

Jeevan (18:14.493)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (18:15.402)
You know?

Papa Rick (18:15.585)
Finding the level, yeah.

Jeevan (18:18.469)
Yeah, I've done that many times. Sorry, Rick, were you saying something?

Papa Rick (18:20.461)
calibrating.

Papa Rick (18:25.373)
Just to just say the calibrating is, is where do you, where do you, where do you find the level? How do you go about finding the

Jeevan (18:30.973)
Yeah, it feels like the million dollar question, right? Because I think that one of the challenges I have, I don't have an issue pulling that like, quote unquote, early, like not letting it linger too fast. The thing that I think about is, will this backfire? Specifically to address your question.

Jennie (18:35.532)
Right?

Jennie (18:56.142)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (18:58.281)
You know, I've given her choices on things. Martial arts, you brought up karate. I did it with kung fu when she was doing kung fu a couple years ago, and I would say when she didn't wanna go, hey, I didn't say maybe as well thought as your parents said to you, but I did say something to the effect of, you know, either we are saying this is something we're stopping and we're not gonna do this anymore, or.

we're going to keep pushing through and we're going to continue on this journey. And, and her answer back was, okay, I'm out. Right. Um, like you're giving me an out kind of thing. And that's when I, that's when I say, Oh, well, that was not the outcome I wanted. Now, of course, I have a bias that that's a good outcome. It may be it's good that she sells selects out of it and find something else. Um, so that's where I,

Papa Rick (19:42.473)
Right.

Jennie (19:45.366)
Yeah. Right. Find something she actually enjoys.

Jeevan (19:52.057)
Right, that's where I struggled. So we negotiated around that and I said, okay, look, you tried it for X time. Let's give it this fixed period of time. After that, if you decide you're not gonna go back, I will not challenge you. So she did it for a full year and that actually coincided when we were moving to LA. And when we were moving to LA, I said, would you like to pursue this again? She said, no. And I said, okay, you did it for a year. You persisted, I'm proud of you. You did not give up. It's not a listening joy. Now we can move.

Papa Rick (20:18.742)
Yep.

Yeah. Now you've given it a fair trial. That was usually what I did with the kids was, well, OK. Because we were doing it as a group. Jenny and Jenny and her two brothers and I were all doing it together. And so it was kind of a collab.

Jennie (20:21.858)
Nice.

Jeevan (20:24.885)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (20:30.229)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (20:33.494)
I was the one that begged to start karate. And then I was...

Papa Rick (20:38.461)
Well, it started with Josh as a birthday present. He had asked while you guys were still up in grandma and grandpa's house. And then you jumped right in. Nathan was a little young for the whole thing. You know, I was actually the last one in the pool, sitting there watching them with karate lessons going, okay, get up old man, there's no reason you can't be doing this too. But yeah, you were all in from the beginning.

But when they wanted to quit, because there was always the discussion on the way to karate about, oh, woe is me and I should be doing something else. And so what I ended up framing was, well, okay, but you can't sit home and watch TV. We're all going to karate. What's your plan for the other activity? And then that got them thinking. And what you did is great for you. You kind of want to...

Jeevan (21:22.645)
Right.

Papa Rick (21:36.785)
making the situation where they have to persevere, you know, that's getting the reps, getting the persistence. It's like, well, you started to stick with the team till the end of the season, or you committed, see your commitment through. Those are all great lessons. And it's, yeah, the negotiation is good. Yeah.

Jennie (21:55.126)
And then negotiation. I love how you negotiated with her and said, here's, you know, we value perseverance and we don't just quit. And sometimes things are really hard and you just have to overcome that hurdle and then things kind of even out and you don't regret sticking with something. And so teaching her that piece.

Jeevan (22:17.533)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (22:22.686)
and negotiating with her and then saying, if after that you decide this still is not the thing for you, I fully support that and you can find another activity. And I think that also teaches our kids to not just pursue something because somebody else wants us to. It teaches our kids to actually tap in and listen and do the hard thing, but then go.

Jeevan (22:44.359)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (22:51.398)
Is this something I care about? Is this something that I need, that I want to be doing internally, intrinsically motivated? And then they get to decide and giving her that choice is extremely powerful and will build her own sense of self and knowing herself.

Jeevan (23:11.165)
Yeah, and that resonates because, you know, to your point about the child not feeling like they're doing it because, you know, they're doing it for you exclusively. We've had this challenge around playing a team sport. So you know, her core activity is gymnastics, which I love that she does it and she gets joy from it. And I've been encouraging her to try a team sport for a while. When she was three years old.

I knew the only way she would try to support if I was the coach or four rather she was four. And so we did back, basketball has always been my favorite sport. She knows that. So I coached a basketball team and she joined and of course at four she disliked it. She was also the only girl on the team. So I think she disliked it even more.

Jennie (23:59.447)
Aww.

Papa Rick (23:59.633)
Oh, oh yeah, that's unfortunate.

Jeevan (24:01.917)
Um, and I think that was probably more, more along the time where I was a little bit more rigid in my ways of like, yeah, okay, it's going to be tough, but we're going to do it right. Uh, I was probably less empathetic then, or, or maybe not less empathetic, but just more sort of like, here's the answer. Um, anyways, fast forward and I've been pushing her to try a team sport for a while she's declined and so basketball has been the natural one I have like persisted on.

Jennie (24:30.903)
Mm.

Jeevan (24:31.041)
And I did it. She knows that I'm into basketball. And so I figured it would just be obvious why I'm pushing basketball, because that's a sport I know. And I realized the subtext of what I was telling her when she told me one day, she said, dad, that's your journey, not mine.

Papa Rick (24:48.073)
Wow, she used your words on you. A little bit. Ha ha ha. Good for her.

Jennie (24:49.454)
Waaahhh

Jeevan (24:51.181)
Yeah. Yeah, this was about a year ago.

And when she said that, I realized, oh, she thinks, and to be fair, I think there was truth in what she was saying, but I am sending her the signal that like, you need to do this because like, that's what I love and you need to do what I love. And like, you know, she probably saw that as like, I'm gonna love her if she does what I want her to do. And I realized, holy cow, like I'm doing something really wrong here. And so,

Jennie (25:15.585)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (25:22.405)
and be like me.

Jennie (25:26.186)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (25:26.573)
Yeah.

Jeevan (25:27.153)
I really sat down with her and I said, I will not bring this up to you ever again. Here is why I am pushing on a team sport. And I talked to her about executive function skills, teamwork, leadership, you know, reacting under pressure when you have to coordinate. I explained to her the intrinsics. And I said, you're right. I just sort of like predisposed an answer, but really what I'm solving for is this broader thing. Why don't you talk to your friends and see how you think you might get them.

Papa Rick (25:32.365)
Hahaha.

Papa Rick (25:40.359)
Yeah.

Jennie (25:45.28)
Yeah.

Jennie (25:53.068)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (25:57.293)
Yeah. That's really hard because our kids' experiences take us outside of our own. You know, your expertise. We naturally gravitate towards our own expertise trying to lead our children, but that sometimes that can go the wrong way. You end up the dad in the stand screaming at the kid to do the thing that you never achieved or something. You know, that can go way too far. Excellent. I bet that's got to be a struggle for everybody.

Jennie (25:57.884)
Cool. Amazing.

Jeevan (25:57.91)
reps.

Jeevan (26:10.56)
Right?

Jennie (26:24.498)
even with an amazing intention. Like your intention was, this is so funny, this happens. I think this happens between adults too, in partnerships, in romantic relationships. Our intention doesn't come out, our experience does. And so our intention is that I want my child to experience, get the experience and gain these life skills, right? This executive function, reacting under pressure, being a team player, like,

Papa Rick (26:27.475)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (26:35.874)
Hmm.

Jennie (26:52.45)
Those are all super important life skills to develop and can be developed by playing a team sport. But because the way you experienced those was through basketball, that's the only thing that came that came out was in communication was basketball. And one, a seven year old looking at her father and saying, that's your journey, not mine, is amazing. It's amazing. And.

Papa Rick (26:59.249)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (27:15.009)
That's a great picture.

Jennie (27:20.082)
The fact that you could then respond and reflect, not get mad, not get defensive, not lay down the law, but go, Oh shit, I've been miscommunicating what I want for her. And then you were able to put language to your actual intention and allow, and bring her into that conversation and like discuss and negotiate and put the power back on her. Hey, why don't you ask your friends? Like, this is fantastic. This is amazing.

Papa Rick (27:49.493)
Yeah.

Jennie (27:51.02)
Yeah.

Jeevan (27:51.229)
I think the other thing I realize is that the conversation I'm having with her when I'm trying to encourage her to do something, that conversation extends beyond that moment in time. It's all the subtle things she's observing outside of that interaction. And I'm a huge basketball junkie. So she sees me watching basketball. She sees me practicing in the driveway. She sees me going to my league games.

Jennie (28:01.484)
Yeah.

Jennie (28:06.306)
Oh yeah.

Jennie (28:11.884)
Yes.

Jeevan (28:20.969)
So she sees all this and here's this guy saying, you do it. And so I'm not being thoughtful enough about what's the full narrative that's shaping up in her mind, right? Which this whole thing, going back to your first question around parenting philosophy, one of the things I've incorporated is really asking myself, what if I'm completely wrong about this?

Papa Rick (28:21.327)
Oh boy.

Jennie (28:23.22)
Yeah.

Jennie (28:30.238)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (28:31.681)
Yeah, yeah.

Jeevan (28:47.729)
I'm asking my kid to do or I'm trying to teach my kid. What if I'm like completely wrong about this Under what conditions might I be completely wrong and I try to explore that and my wife is exceptional at teasing that out

Papa Rick (28:53.769)
Yeah.

Jennie (28:54.198)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (29:04.781)
complimentary. That's great. Yeah, that's if you can't ask yourself if you're crazy, you know, am I am I right that can be real dangerous? That's an that's a great parenting skill. That's a big part of my what I like about doing this podcast is talking about things I wish I had known earlier in my parenting career, you know, so you're not you're not you're not figuring it out. What it would wouldn't be great if you knew if we knew all these

these experiences that we have learning about ourselves when we're parenting, if we could somehow have all that before we had kids or earlier in the process. You were just laying in wait for the issue to come up and say, oh, okay, I know how to handle this and execute our goals a little better. I think that's the value of a podcast like this is parents listening to this and learn. As long as you have the ability to learn from others, then you get that a little bit earlier than...

having to work your way through your own children together, just using your own children as an experience to gather wisdom. That's a great story. I love, I can see a little sticker, that's your journey, dad. Little girl talking to her dad. That's got a whole picture in my head of that. That's a great picture.

Jeevan (30:19.99)
You know, she...

Jeevan (30:24.025)
She coaches me all the time and I think that's one of the gifts I've got is, I think she coaches me and gives me more areas to improve on than the reverse. And she is very excellent at highlighting those things. And I take it, I tell her all the time, I'm open to feedback. I actually tell her like, I want to be a better dad.

Papa Rick (30:37.313)
Good for her, yeah.

Jeevan (30:52.949)
day in, day out, week in, week out. And so she will communicate that with me. And I think the beauty of that is she develops a growth mindset, right? So, you know, she actually uses the word feedback because I tell her I'm open to feedback and she'll tell me stuff. And then so she'll tell me I'm open to feedback. What do you think I could do better in a certain category? So, you know, she actually started her own blog the other day. I helped her do that. We were at the library.

Jennie (30:53.002)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (30:53.089)
Yep. Sure, sure.

Jennie (31:01.855)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (31:02.133)
Yeah.

Jennie (31:12.517)
Aww.

Papa Rick (31:13.949)
Yeah.

Jeevan (31:22.769)
And then she said, oh, you know, make sure you send it to this person and that person and this person. And of course, parent anxiety immediately, right? I was like, oh, you're developing this social media anxiety of like, you know, you want to get validation from others. And so I started like, you know, my lecture on like, let's not get too carried away about getting validation from others. And she goes, Dad, I just want to get feedback on how I can improve it.

Papa Rick (31:35.254)
Ha ha ha!

Papa Rick (31:50.541)
That's, you know, that's a fantastic success story too, that she can do that. You know, we were talking before you, you mentioned before about worrying about making her dependent. You know, on a, on a certain style, but also what we're doing is teaching her. How to recognize a good style, you know, so later in her life, you know, when she's running into other people or mate selection or whatever, you know, she, she.

Jeevan (32:12.317)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (32:20.025)
not having that and okay now that's kind of a red flag for her hey i can't work through things you know this guy's not open to a little uh a little feedback you know uh so it turns out being super valuable that sounds really healthy

Jeevan (32:30.337)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (32:32.438)
Yeah.

Jennie (32:37.846)
And what an amazing trust you've created because for you an adult who technically has power over, power over a child, for you to create a space for her to welcome her feedback, I welcome your opinion, I wanna hear what you think. Telling her that that...

Papa Rick (32:42.617)
Yep.

Papa Rick (33:00.667)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (33:03.746)
without even saying the words, telling her that her opinion and experience matter to you.

Papa Rick (33:08.513)
Yes.

Jennie (33:10.026)
That one sets her up with expectations, dad, like you said, of either a partner or even anyone she surrounds herself with for the rest of her life to be an open, communicative person. It also sets her up. Like you said, she says back to you, Jivan, I'm open to feedback. And she's seeking that growth in whatever it is she chooses to pursue. She's seeking

Papa Rick (33:19.634)
Anybody, yeah.

Papa Rick (33:26.301)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (33:39.702)
that growth. And so not only is she going to be able to grow and overcome failure, because if she's ready to get feedback, she knows it's not always going to be what she wants to hear. That's going to build resilience in her and her confidence to overcome those things, overcome comments, or improve something. I mean, she's just going to blossom and she's going to surround her people.

herself with people who are like that as well. I think that's an amazing foundation that you've laid for her.

Jeevan (34:17.33)
appreciate that.

Papa Rick (34:19.505)
Outstanding, outstanding. Yeah. Congratulations, both you and your wife. Well done.

Jennie (34:19.871)
Yeah.

Jennie (34:23.638)
Yeah.

Jeevan (34:25.126)
Hehehehehehe

Jennie (34:26.926)
Hahaha!

Jeevan (34:29.662)
I will happily take that validation because it doesn't feel that way often. Yeah, yeah.

Papa Rick (34:32.175)
Hahaha!

Jennie (34:34.474)
Right? It doesn't ever feel like it when you're in it. Yeah. So what are what are what's another one of your kind of parenting goals slash concerns that you regularly work with?

Papa Rick (34:37.801)
Not in the moment, yeah. Yeah, it's funny.

Jeevan (34:49.269)
Yeah.

Yeah, let's go, it's always easy for me to go to a concern, which is something I'm trying to improve on. But something that is very, and it goes back to being a girl dad, something that is very top of mind for me, right? And I always have to think about why I have a certain view, how it might be informed in my childhood trauma, right? I use trauma lightly there.

Jennie (35:01.87)
That's okay.

Jennie (35:09.164)
Yeah.

Jeevan (35:20.233)
or just the way I was raised, right? But I was raised in an Indian culture. I was raised in Jamaica. And I was raised, I'm in my 40s now, right? So I have largely seen women take a backseat to men a lot of my life. And that's still the case today, even though we've made significant progress. And so that is very high on my list of concerns. And

Jennie (35:23.008)
Yeah.

Jennie (35:37.795)
Mm, yeah.

Jeevan (35:48.621)
I don't know the right way to sort of solve for that. So I'll give like an example, which is I really try to introduce things to my girls that I feel are either gender neutral or something that classically gets assigned to a boy. Whether it's math, cars, dump trucks, whatever it might be. And my older one really gravitates to

Jennie (35:55.79)
Hmm.

Jennie (36:09.142)
Mm.

Jennie (36:14.658)
Yeah.

Jeevan (36:18.869)
dolls and very interested in nail polish and things like that. And I've never set a limitation on whatever you want to play with. But when it starts to get into the beauty products, like, oh, I have friends with nail polish and, oh, actually, I'm curious to try makeup for my birthday, my anxiety rises. And it rises because I feel like this division is getting created where the boys get all the opportunities and the girls are just meant to...

Jennie (36:24.204)
Yeah.

Jennie (36:29.707)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (36:37.825)
Piercing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jennie (36:40.106)
Yeah.

Jeevan (36:48.521)
you know, look a certain way and the language that's being presented to them. And, you know, she saw that this Barbie movie came out. She didn't watch it, but like she's just so interested in like, you know, what the Barbie culture is. And anyways, it's a long wind up to say it's something I actively I talked to her about it. I said, this is why I think this thing might be too materialistic or too emphasizing, you know, emphasizing looks too much. But I struggle with that.

Jennie (36:54.317)
Yeah.

Jennie (37:08.247)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (37:08.481)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (37:17.345)
It's tough. You have to replace that with something or they have to replace that with something because it is so prevalent and so easy to fall into.

Jennie (37:18.187)
Yeah.

Jennie (37:26.07)
I think it's.

Jeevan (37:26.077)
But I think the other thing is I don't know what's healthy and not healthy.

Papa Rick (37:30.38)
Yeah.

Jennie (37:30.61)
Yeah, that's a hard one, especially coming from a place where you are male. You don't, you never, you don't know necessarily unless you love nail polish and beauty products, which is also fine. But I'm assuming from your appearance that you don't. And so you don't necessarily understand the feeling or the draw or how fun those things can be for girls and how

coming from a feminine perspective, those beauty products, yes, it can get toxic. It can become like looking at the women in the magazines and they're airbrushed and they're fake and you want to strive to be and look like that. But in my older and wiser adult years, it has become…

something that I can utilize in order to fully express who I am and how I want to show up in the world. And so I think that there is a very balanced way to allow your daughter's curiosities and interest, a very natural interest in beauty products, in nail polish, in maybe fashion or whatever she is interested in.

gravitating towards to be this fun experimental thing and allowing her to explore that. And then also having those conversations when you notice that something is like the reason she's doing it is because she wants to look like a certain person from somewhere that's fake, you know, or so not making those desires, those innate desires of hers wrong.

Jeevan (39:15.733)
Right.

Jennie (39:23.67)
that could cause her to reject that part of herself in some way, but allowing her to be excited, to want to try these things, to figure out what she likes and doesn't like. And friends are gonna influence that a little bit. And having just having those, like you said, those conversations will come up serendipitously and you can touch on makeup being a tool for self-expression, not to...

Papa Rick (39:52.713)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (39:53.678)
transform into something else.

Jeevan (39:57.797)
You know, you use... Sorry, go ahead, Rick.

Papa Rick (39:58.177)
That's what I would add there is, I'm sorry. I remember makeup and makeovers being when we'd have a family gathering because the girl cousins would get together and they'd run out and get some nail polish or fake nails or stuff, you know, and it was an enjoyment. It was a fun thing, bonding thing. I also remember taking you, I think homecoming dress.

shopping once or prom dress shopping once. And as you would try different things on, I was very much out of my element, picking out, you know, styles for 14, 16 year old girls, whatever you were at the time. And I just remember all I had to offer was like, well, what's the, what's the message you want to send here? You know, you put on a slinky one, you'd put on something a little more decorative. And I just remember the only thing I could think of to do at that point was like, well, what's the message you're trying to send?

Jennie (40:26.8)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Papa Rick (40:55.469)
And I would think it would be the same kind of thing with makeup and, and glitz and bling and, and all that kind of thing is, yeah, it's one thing to have a per professional appearance in a professional setting or a fun appearance in a fun setting, you know, a Halloween costume or something, but somehow to, yeah, somehow to shield you. It's it's don't make it part of your identity. Make it part of your costume was the, was the underlying message is where it gets

Jennie (40:55.48)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (41:25.245)
I think where it gets unhealthy, where it really, you're doing it for other people seeking approval.

Jennie (41:30.606)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (41:33.342)
And I think.

Papa Rick (41:33.405)
And how to negotiate that, boy, that's going to be different for every parent and child, I would think, in their circumstances.

Jeevan (41:40.065)
Yeah, I think that two things that you both touched on that really hit Jenny, you mentioned the word explore. Well, actually you mentioned two words that I thought really was an explore and tool, right? So the idea that I can have my child explore these things, I think reduces the weight and anxiety that I feel towards it. And the flip side is what

Papa Rick (41:52.693)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (41:52.949)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (41:56.398)
We'll lay down.

Yeah.

Mmm, yeah.

Papa Rick (42:03.789)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (42:09.609)
what you were talking about, Rick, right? Where you were saying, don't make it your identity, right? And I think that's the fear is I sometimes have that zero to or one thinking where it's like, you know either you're not into makeup as a proxy for a broader category of things or you're like fully in it and it's your identity, right? And this middle ground I find very hard to navigate but I think that middle ground

Papa Rick (42:30.154)
Yeah, yeah.

Jennie (42:30.875)
Yeah.

Jennie (42:35.032)
Yeah.

Jeevan (42:39.521)
is what you're both circling around when you frame it as something you're exploring, something that's a tool with a specific purpose, e.g. expressing yourself, but it's not all consuming of your identity. And I really struggle in untangling that middle ground. One tool I have used to try to untangle it when she's interested in these things, like she got these

Jennie (42:49.346)
Yeah.

Jeevan (43:06.465)
clip-on thing you put in your hair, and it kind of gives you some fake purple hair on the side. And so I've asked her, like, hey, you know, I try not to come across as like the judgmental dad. And I say, hey, tell me, you know, what's, it's hard, but I'm like, tell me, you know, what's the, yeah, like, what's, and I have to think about my tone, you know, I don't want to be like, hey, why are you wearing that purple thing, right? So I'm like, oh, you know,

Jennie (43:08.054)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Papa Rick (43:19.169)
Hahaha!

Jennie (43:23.818)
Right?

Papa Rick (43:24.149)
Think before you speak, yeah. Hehehehehehe

Jennie (43:30.862)
HAHAHA

Jeevan (43:33.665)
Tell me what's so interesting about this or why are you wearing this today? Inside I'm thinking, you know, why are you wearing this purple thing? But it, I think it at least opens the conversation in a better way, but the tricky thing is she's eight. So she's not really sure why, right? And she says that, she's like, I don't know, it's just cool. And then, so I just tell her, right, I guess. So I just tell her,

Papa Rick (43:34.631)
Yeah.

Hahaha

Jennie (43:39.447)
Yes.

Right?

Papa Rick (43:59.233)
She's looking for feedback. Right.

Jennie (43:59.565)
Yeah.

Jeevan (44:04.089)
I think one thing I, maybe this goes to one of the period of philosophy things is, I realize I rarely have the answer, right? So what I, but what I can do is elucidate my thinking, right? That I can do. And I can tell her in that thinking that I don't have the answer. So I do that with her. I say, hey, look, you're wearing this hair clip thing. It looks like it's something you're enjoying. It's fun for you. Great. I'm happy.

Jennie (44:12.686)
..

Papa Rick (44:17.545)
Yeah.

Jennie (44:30.167)
Yeah.

Jeevan (44:31.345)
I will tell you as a dad, there's one thing I'm thinking about and I don't have the answer for it. And it's that I don't want you to get too wrapped up in this and feel that you need to wear it to look a certain way. And I sort of articulate what I'm thinking about. And then I extract myself and say, go live your life. But that's at least my technique for now.

Jennie (44:44.579)
Hmm.

Jennie (44:48.616)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (44:48.909)
That's right.

Papa Rick (44:52.593)
I think that's all there is, you know, you know, it's when I'm sitting or watching Jenny pick out a dress, it's all fear based and it's not something in my experience, you know, it's not, it's not in my wheelhouse. And so all you can do is bring hopefully a more mature, you know, I've spent more time figuring things out than you. So you bring a method of, you know, here's, here's what I see. Explain you say, explain your, explain your thinking, you know, they're, they're old enough to appreciate that.

Jennie (44:52.606)
I love it. Yeah.

Papa Rick (45:21.977)
and pick up on that, that's modeling good behavior. And then say, you know, I don't know, but I don't see any huge red flags here, you know, I don't think this is something you're going to die from soon. And so, okay, knock yourself out, just, you know, here's my concern. I think that's all we can do. That's probably a core task of a parent, is of raising a self-motivated kid. I think that's a perfect example.

Jennie (45:51.534)
Well, and you didn't judge it. That's the other thing that came up for me is that you didn't lay your concern onto her so that she then internalized it. You just said you entered with curiosity, even though it's something that was foreign to you, something you didn't understand. You noticed that it created a worry or a fear in you, but you chose curiosity and then you shared your thought.

Papa Rick (45:54.709)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (46:12.31)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (46:20.33)
with her in a way that was like, I don't have the answer. And this is just my concern. And that I don't want you to identify with having to wear that in order to be cool. If you like it, awesome, fully support you, live your life, like you said. And you didn't judge her or criticize the fact that, cause I remember, I remember

Papa Rick (46:42.369)
Yeah.

Jennie (46:47.622)
certain clothes that I wanted to wear that were deemed unacceptable, or told that I couldn't buy that when I was out school clothes shopping, not because it was too short or too revealing or anything. It just wasn't the color that my parent thought I should get. I had to constantly justify and convince that I wanted pink and purple things, not blue and green things.

Papa Rick (47:07.956)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (47:16.695)
Hmm.

Jennie (47:17.082)
And that's like a nugget from my childhood that has stuck with me into adulthood in the way that I decorate or create my home with things I like, not creating it because I think someone who walks into my home will like it. You know what I mean? So I just.

Papa Rick (47:30.465)
Mm-hmm. When you're younger, that's kind of a power struggle, kind of an unnecessary power struggle thing.

Jeevan (47:33.001)
Yeah.

Jennie (47:38.686)
Yeah, like let your kid like what they like. Like it's just like, they're not, it's not hurting them. And you're, yeah. Yeah. I love, I really love that. And really since our first conversation, Jeevon, I've always been very impressed with your, not that you need my approval, but I just want to.

Papa Rick (47:41.515)
Yeah.

I don't see any harm, knock yourself out. Yeah.

Jennie (48:06.222)
tell you this as a compliment is that I've always been very impressed with your approach and your awareness of yourself and your biases and this is how I was raised and I'm worried about doing this to my kids, but I also know that I need to step back and look at it through a different lens or you know, you're very, you have a growth mindset and you're very exploratory in the way that you approach things. And I'm curious. I'm curious.

Papa Rick (48:24.065)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (48:36.47)
because in my experience, it's rare.

Jennie (48:43.422)
rarer to me in my experience to find that in the male figure, in the male parenting figure, in dads. It's also, in my experience, there are very, there are much fewer supports set up that are aimed at dads specifically. I think that there's a lot of

perinatal supports, moms becoming moms, the transition into motherhood, the needs of a woman when she's in that vulnerable space, the way men can step up and support women, things like that. And then there's a lot of like parenting advice, but there's very little dad-specific advice.

Because I am someone who believes that the mom experience and the dad experience, women and men experience things differently. We have different societal expectations, we're raised differently often and with different perspectives. And I'm curious how much support you've seen or experienced in the dad world specifically.

Jeevan (49:43.041)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (49:57.334)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (50:02.589)
Yeah, it's a great question. First, very quickly, I wanted to say thank you for the kind words and that it's mutual. Ever since we've been chatting, I've been incredibly impressed and in awe of just your thoughtfulness and your ability to hear what somebody's saying and take it to its conclusion or implication. And so I love our chats. So thank you for that.

Jennie (50:10.343)
Mm.

Jennie (50:29.452)
Oh, thank you.

Jeevan (50:33.117)
The dad support thing is interesting because I think about it a lot. Uh, and I'll share a quick anecdote that I think elucidates some of what I've observed. Uh, I was on a, um, camping slash glamping trip for, uh, my daughter's, uh, incoming third grade class. So all the parents, or not all the parents, but a lot of the parents and their kids went and it was sort of like a bonding experience. And, um,

Jennie (50:47.266)
Hehehehe

Papa Rick (50:56.483)
I see.

Jeevan (50:59.289)
the moms of the third graders have a WhatsApp chat and they've had it for years, like when they were in second grade, when they were first grade, and it's a very active chat, like a, I think like a daily active thing. And I had not heard about whether there was a dad chat or not. I had sort of heard maybe there was one, and I overheard two dads talking about some dad chat. So I beelined it over there and I said, hey, I heard something about a dad chat. Can you add me? And...

Jennie (51:11.592)
Yeah.

Jennie (51:24.382)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (51:26.638)
It's kind of secretive on the dad's side.

Jeevan (51:30.529)
Well, here's the thing. He says, yeah, I can add you. Full disclosure, the last update was five months ago. The last message. He's like most of the messages on there are like, so-and-so has changed their profile picture, or so-and-so has changed their phone number. Like, that's the chat. Right, that's the chat.

Papa Rick (51:32.318)
Hahaha

Jennie (51:44.779)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (51:44.843)
Yeah.

Jennie (51:52.142)
I don't know.

Papa Rick (51:54.524)
Expectation management, yeah.

Jeevan (51:58.561)
And I will add to that, that one thing my wife does a great job and a lot of her female friends do a great job of is like they plan stuff, right? They get people together, their activation energy is always there, right? Like let's do something. And they're always the logistic people, they're the planning people, they're the organizers. And I think my observation is that,

If you can, and at the camping place, the dads were super engaged. They were like all in with their kids, but it's getting them from zero to one. Somebody has to kind of create the surface area, organize the thing, and then the dads are all in. But for whatever reason, they're not the starters. Like they need somebody to set it up. And I've seen that, you know, I've generally not been that person.

Jennie (52:35.243)
Yeah.

Jennie (52:41.111)
Yeah.

Jennie (52:48.343)
Yeah.

Jeevan (52:52.985)
and my wife and I talk about it. And she'll openly call me out, right? She's like, you know, when we're going on a trip, like I'm not the one who has the list ready to pack. I'm not the one who thinks about where we should go on vacation. And it's a, I think it's a gender bias thing that I'm trying to correct. And it's a long way of saying that like, I think that if there's a way to crack that, to get dads to just sort of jump that initial hurdle.

Jennie (53:04.831)
Yeah.

Jeevan (53:22.065)
it will unlock a lot of dad support and engagement because I am in some dad groups like on Facebook and they actually have tons of engagement but I think it's like you need somebody to seed that conversation.

Jennie (53:22.615)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (53:29.919)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (53:29.995)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (53:32.426)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (53:33.155)
Nice.

Papa Rick (53:36.809)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jennie (53:37.054)
Yeah, I think it's also, there's also a societal piece in that I think that it has been historically more acceptable for women to seek help than for men. I think that there is a construct that exists inside of the toxic masculinity part of things where it, you shouldn't ask for help, you should

You're the providers, you're the protectors, you're this. And so you should never need support or help. And I think that men's mental health has suffered horribly because of that. Because men are afraid to ask for help, are afraid to be like, my kid is doing this and I don't know how to handle it. Or I fucked up. Admitting fault, admitting that we need help, that we don't know everything.

I think has been even more taboo from the male side of things. So I think that has slowed the activation of data support groups too.

Papa Rick (54:47.221)
Yeah, I think that's, you know, we talked an episode or two ago, we got into gender roles and what's going on now. And I think there's very, you know, I think the sexes, there are at least roles that are different that way. You know, I'm in like three men's groups now, and there's always one guy that gets it going, sets a time and a place, you know, and guys show up.

When it comes time to organize other things, it's usually the same guy or two or three that are getting the herd going. And other guys showing up, it's kind of like a job. It's a concrete task. I want to do this. What time is it? Where do I need to be? Okay. But we're just not as people-oriented, right? Isn't that the stereotype? Females are a little more people-oriented, guys are a little more thing-oriented.

Jeevan (55:24.415)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (55:42.737)
And so planning a party just kind of naturally falls to the person who wants to have a party, you know, whereas the guys are like, okay, I need to fix a car and the garage is over there. So we'll get over there at that time and, uh, work, work on the car, work on ourself or whatever it is we're working on, you know, we're working on something and you know, that's, that's way too simple, but, um, I, I think we can train all we want.

Jeevan (55:48.681)
Yeah.

Jeevan (55:55.125)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (56:09.257)
but it's gonna be a hard sell because there's something, there's some pressure to make it that way. But we can certainly nudge it because there is so much benefit to having a thoughtful guy, kid-oriented guy around so much. Divorce now is horrible. Guys lose that you'd mentioned earlier on, mention that spontaneous, serendipitous kind of contact with their kids. It's so important.

You know, yeah, there's certainly things around that we can, we can work on fixing.

Jeevan (56:44.437)
I'm optimistic that this will shift and improve and reach a better equilibrium. But I think something you said, Jenny, that resonates is this point about, you know, men may have a predisposition to not look for that help, not ask for that help. I think you're right that it does tie to poor mental health if you're not willing to sort of raise that hand.

You know, I mentioned the sort of zero to one challenge of like the activation energy of guys like getting together and have that. But as I hear you talk and I think about my interactions, I do think it goes beyond that too, right? So if, if a bunch of moms from my kid's school get together and they don't really know each other, but they have a mom's night, and you juxtapose that with a bunch of dads getting together, let's say they get there, somebody activates them, the conversations are also

Jennie (57:36.386)
Yeah.

Jeevan (57:43.189)
fundamentally different, I think, in two ways. Often, I think one is that the moms will get to vulnerability quicker, right? They will put their cards on the table much quicker, right? And I've seen this just anecdotally, right? And so I think that's part of it. And then I think the other part of it is, often, like these moms are getting together,

Jennie (57:45.544)
Mm. Yeah.

Jennie (57:54.53)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (57:55.137)
Hmm.

Jeevan (58:11.489)
They're already thinking like, oh, you know, I can get advice from this mom. They can, you know, I'm working, I'm figuring this thing out with my kid. And the dads are thinking, you know, to sort of make it maybe overly stereotypical, but I think there's truth to it. Hey, I can go hang out with the guys and, you know, we'll talk about sports, right? So I think there's a combination of vulnerability difference and there's a combination of intent difference sometimes when these gatherings happen as well.

Papa Rick (58:29.546)
Yeah.

Jennie (58:35.531)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (58:37.525)
I think that's exactly right. In a group of guys, it's more like guys are sitting there figuring out, you know, it kind of goes to the protector role. Guys are sitting there figuring out what can I reveal without creating any haunt, you know, without having back any backlash or how's this going to affect me at a job? Or, you know, they're very carefully, they're very carefully vulnerable, you know, and it helps to activate them. You know, it did.

Jeevan (58:48.747)
Hmm.

Jeevan (58:55.009)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (58:55.106)
Hmm.

Jennie (59:02.751)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (59:06.877)
It helps a lot if somebody goes first, you know, it's like, yeah, well, I'm struck, I'm struggling with this. And then you then we'll have a discussion about everybody's struggles about that. You know, but you do have, you do have to get them started. They don't all come primed, ready to ask advice about things.

Jeevan (59:09.854)
Yeah.

Jennie (59:23.522)
Yeah.

Jeevan (59:23.62)
This is.

Jennie (59:26.53)
I think that's a thousand percent true. My husband has tried to explain that to me a lot. I go out and hang out with my girls, or I go out to dinner with a friend, or I seek out interactions with my...

Papa Rick (59:29.325)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Papa Rick (59:38.331)
Another gender difference, yeah.

Jennie (59:54.134)
girlfriends and relationships. And my husband, one, the bulk of his friends are still in Pennsylvania. So a lot of his network, his very close inner circle is not here in Colorado. So that's one piece that definitely plays a part. But the friends that he does have here in Colorado and even the newer friends that he made

Jeevan (01:00:11.855)
is

Jennie (01:00:21.994)
through my girlfriend's husbands, who he's like really connected with. It is like pulling teeth, like they both when we're together, they're over there having a conversation. They're like, man, we should go shooting, man, we should like hang out, man, we should do this, we should do that. And then they never do anything. And I'm like, I'm about to call his wife and be like, yo, we should set up a date for these guys. Like, because I know if we schedule it, and we're like,

Papa Rick (01:00:35.181)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Jeevan (01:00:40.321)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Papa Rick (01:00:40.554)
Hahaha

Jeevan (01:00:50.889)
They'll do it.

Jennie (01:00:51.562)
You're off this day. We've booked you a spot at the gun range from eight to noon. I've packed your stuff. You're going. I know that it would happen. But like you said, men are not. And there is. I believe there's a difference in feminine and masculine energy. And I believe there's different combinations and levels of those that live inside everyone. But someone who is primarily feminine and someone who is primarily masculine, I think that the masculine needs an activation.

Papa Rick (01:00:57.333)
Date time place. Yep.

Jennie (01:01:21.71)
And I think that that's where the feminine can come in and do that. And sometimes that can feel frustrating or burdensome to us. Um, but there's also, there's, there's once there, right. That once there's an activation, it's like, he's, he's the person in the relationship who makes the thing happen. I.

Papa Rick (01:01:30.957)
kind of childlike. It's a playdate you're scheduling.

Jeevan (01:01:33.321)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:01:47.95)
I'm the creator of the vision and the energy, and then I activate him and he executes. And that's a very dumbed down version of our relationship and it's not black and white in that way, but that's something that I've been, that I've, that's top of mind for me, I love that phrasing, that's top of mind for me in my work, in my partnership is

understanding our different strengths. And that he isn't necessarily, the whole point of this story was that he has explained to me, it's so hard for guys to trust each other. And it's so hard for men to, because they're constantly, you know, they don't know what that man's perspective of being a man is. And so if, if they don't necessarily think that sharing

Jeevan (01:02:32.393)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:02:47.07)
you know, our marital struggles or struggles with my kid, you know, if those topics are not something that, you know, they don't know that person well enough to know they're going to be willing to talk about those things or not see me in a weakness kind of light because I want to talk about those things, then they're not going to initiate that vulnerability and they're going to talk sports and guns and whatever.

Jeevan (01:03:01.255)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:03:03.489)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (01:03:09.569)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:03:15.318)
And I do have a hard time swallowing that and understanding it. Cause I'm like, just do it. Like if you're the one to be vulnerable, they're probably just praying for you to take the initiative and be the vulnerable one first. But I know how hard that can be. So, yeah.

Jeevan (01:03:28.394)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:03:38.038)
Let's see, I did, we're a little over an hour. Do you have time for us to have about one more question? I have one more question for you. Cool. So my last inquiry, I think, is you and I had touched on, let me see,

Jeevan (01:03:47.713)
Go for it. Yes.

Jennie (01:04:03.062)
We had touched, we touched on this, navigating, raising girls, back when we were talking about makeup and nails and stuff, raising girls in a world that is still largely patriarchal, and how to navigate that in a way that isn't shaming their femininity or feminine interests, but that is also exposing them to...

traditionally male things as options. Like you can go drive a truck. You can go learn martial arts. You can also play with dolls. I think...

Jennie (01:04:48.002)
The question is still coming to me. And maybe there isn't a question, maybe it's just a topic. But how to raise strong women, strong, confident women who can handle patriarchy without having to banish their femininity.

Papa Rick (01:05:09.033)
feminine side, yeah.

Jeevan (01:05:10.557)
Yeah, what a great topic. And I definitely don't have the answer. I do think a lot of my philosophy comes down to just being transparent about what I'm thinking. And my eight year old and I will often ask the why not question, right? So we...

Papa Rick (01:05:37.089)
There you go. Ooh, good. Good for her.

Jennie (01:05:37.326)
Mm.

Jeevan (01:05:40.541)
We do that with a lot of things. Like for example, somebody was saying the other day, oh yeah, the garbage man's outside. My daughter and I were like, well, how do we know that? How do we know it's not a garbage woman? And so it is so embedded in everything that we talk about at home, in the car, that there is this very much why not type of philosophy. And I incorporate everything, right? So...

Papa Rick (01:05:44.135)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:06:05.997)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:06:09.357)
Fantastic.

Jeevan (01:06:11.654)
My two and a half year old likes to wear this Tiana pajama nightgown. Right? And I... Oh yeah, exactly. Right? It's all about Tiana, Tiana. And I always tell her, like, I always tell her, can Papa wear it? Right? And it's largely a fun thing because it teases her and she's like, no, it's mine. You can't wear

Jennie (01:06:19.452)
All day, every day.

Jennie (01:06:24.05)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:06:24.386)
Why not?

Jennie (01:06:35.764)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:06:39.361)
push the predispositions we have. And I think my eight year old has internalized that a lot. So it's a pretty big heavy topic about allowing them to embrace things and engage in things that maybe have been typically male centric while still keeping whatever feminine aspects of their identity, traditionally feminine aspects of their identity they wanna keep.

Jennie (01:06:43.083)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:06:43.658)
Fantastic.

Jennie (01:07:06.237)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:07:07.305)
But the other thing I think about is skillset and mindset. And mindset is my main focus, right? So math is a great example. I noticed, you know, I used to volunteer at one of my daughter's old schools. I used to do these math activities. And I just noticed generally the boys, you know, they have this thing of like, oh yeah, you know, we can do math. And then, and then the girls, they're,

Jennie (01:07:12.385)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:07:36.749)
equally capable. If not, they were probably better at math. But I don't think people were telling them that like, you know, you're a mathematician, you're a mathematical, you can be this thing. So there's already this preconceived mindset. And so one thing I tell my daughter all the time, which she'll tell me all like, this math is hard or something, I say, I'm not worried about the skill. You'll get it when you get it. But I do want to think about the mindset more than the skill set. Right? Like,

Papa Rick (01:07:39.521)
Sometimes, yeah.

Papa Rick (01:07:49.025)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:08:05.637)
I don't want you to say, I can't do this, I can't do that. If you want to use the word yet at the end, that's okay. So, you know, she'll say, oh, I can't do this math thing. And I say, huh? And she'll say, oh yeah, you're right. I can't do this math thing yet. Because I think what's happening, my observation is that sometimes these things that are traditionally associated with men, if a guy, if a boy can't get it, they're just like, oh, you know, I'm having a hard time.

Jennie (01:08:10.935)
Yes.

Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:08:20.929)
That's so great.

Jennie (01:08:21.1)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:08:34.801)
And the girl sometimes can internalize that, that's not my identity. I don't do that, I can't do that. And so I'm very focused on the mindset and the language we have around it. So we always say, yet.

Jennie (01:08:35.423)
Yes.

Jennie (01:08:40.383)
Yes.

Papa Rick (01:08:40.426)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:08:47.702)
I love that.

Papa Rick (01:08:47.916)
Yeah. I wonder if that... Yeah, yeah. I wonder if that has to do with feeling. Girls, the girls don't feel that they can do it. You know, they feel, they, you know, they don't master something right away. And if the feeling keeps them away more than the boys or something, but absolute, you know, girls are gonna learn to be more flexible in a patriarchal society by...

I would think by learning from men, you know, having men in their life, passing on information, learning into their girls. That sounds like super, super important to pick up skills where they are comfortable or dealing with guys. And I love the dad humor thing. That's a, uh, I resonate with the learning, teaching through a little. What? You know, yet. Yeah. Okay. Very good.

Jeevan (01:09:47.319)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing you said about the dad maybe spending time with his girls and sort of reducing the patriarchal differences that way. I think it also goes the other way. One thing I realized was I'm always the one sitting down with my daughter and doing math. So we have this thing where she has to do math, just a little bit of math almost every day. And she sort of asked me, she was like, why can't I just do this with mommy? And...

I realized it just happened to be that that's a thing that I love. And so I do it with her. But going back to our earlier conversation, I may have the best intent, but I am sending a signal to her that, Oh, daddy's the math person. Right. So what signals is that saying, is that showing? And my wife called it out too. And so now we make it a point to my wife leans in and does it. Sometimes I lean into it sometimes. So I do have to even, you know, it's, it's easy to say, Oh, this is an issue,

Jennie (01:10:28.982)
Hmm.

Papa Rick (01:10:29.441)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:10:39.146)
Yeah, yeah.

Jeevan (01:10:44.113)
It's hard to really self-examine and say, what might I be doing that I don't realize that is sending a signal?

Papa Rick (01:10:50.493)
Yeah, yeah, the unconscious.

Jennie (01:10:50.771)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:10:54.634)
I think that's huge. The sending. I think that's a big, um, one of the biggest overarching themes that I see with a lot of parenting, um, is that we send and something I try to explain to parents that I'm still working on my language around is that we are constantly sending signals out into the world. We're sending signals to our partners. We're sending signals to our children. We're sending like,

your energy, it can be felt. And these signals that we send unintentionally and can often even be nonverbal, and usually are nonverbal, like you said with your example of your, you're like, I like math, let's do math together, can inadvertently and completely unintentionally send the signal that mommy or girls don't do math.

Jeevan (01:11:53.313)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:11:53.438)
Um, and it's, you know, there's definitely like a, uh, two extreme side of that where we're like over policing ourselves. But I think that most people, again, in my experience, most people tend to the other side where they're not aware of it at all, or they refuse to look at it. Um, and so once again, I'm just so appreciative of the fact that you.

Papa Rick (01:11:53.79)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (01:12:06.673)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:12:09.654)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:12:13.409)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:12:15.073)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:12:22.53)
One, you have a daughter who tells you these things, who has the language, who you've made it safe for her to offer her feedback and tell you. So she can reflect so that she can be a mirror for you and that you can do the same for her and that you're willing to look at yourself. And there's a part of like ego that plays into this too, is like, is...

Can I accept that I am an imperfect person? And that any given moment that regardless of my intention, I might be actually having this effect on somebody. And when I'm willing to hear that reflection back to me and sit with it or explore it or discuss it, negotiate it, that's when true relationship can happen.

versus defensive or you're little and young and wrong and you don't know me and I know everything and You know Whatever. So I just yeah, there's a lot at play there. Yeah

Jeevan (01:13:22.888)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:13:26.295)
That's a good question.

Jeevan (01:13:28.893)
It's a hard thing. It's a, it is a hard thing to

to give that space to your child to sort of tell you areas, like you said, put a mirror up because it can be uncomfortable. But I think the more you do it, the less uncomfortable it gets in use to your earlier point about growth mindset. You see it more as like, can I be a better dad tomorrow? Can I be an even better dad a week from now? And I think the answer is yes, but it's.

Jennie (01:13:41.324)
Yeah.

Jennie (01:13:44.587)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:13:52.905)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:14:00.049)
it is going to be uncomfortable. And that's where it's also important to have a good partner. You know, my wife tells me all the time, like, hey, take it easy on that thing. Or I don't think you quite had that right. And I'll self-examine and say, holy shnikes, you're right. But it is difficult in the moment to execute on that.

Jennie (01:14:16.769)
Yeah.

Yes, it can be.

Papa Rick (01:14:19.933)
Yeah. It's like, it's a skill to some degree and it, and it takes your skills, take practice and experience and you learn, you learn finesse after a while, you know, but you have to get in there and you can't get too discouraged if you're going to, if you're going to improve at it. That's a, that's a great message for dads. I think is keep at it.

Jennie (01:14:25.762)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:14:28.498)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (01:14:41.802)
Get the reps in.

Papa Rick (01:14:43.265)
You'll get better, get the reps in.

Jennie (01:14:43.662)
Right? Persevere. And I think that the words difficult and uncomfortable are absolutely true. I think in some cases, it can be, it can feel.

Jeevan (01:14:48.374)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:14:48.545)
There you go.

Jennie (01:15:01.902)
horrible. And I want to make it as real as possible for parents who are listening because discomfort

Papa Rick (01:15:04.569)
Mm-hmm.

Jeevan (01:15:11.041)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:15:14.75)
I think most people can go, I can handle a little discomfort. I think the reality sometimes of having our flaws reflected back to us can be horrifying. It can change your entire perception of yourself for a minute or a day or a week. It can have you crying on the bathroom floor. It can have you thinking that I've screwed up my kid forever. It can have you spiraling.

Papa Rick (01:15:28.641)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:15:28.721)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:15:44.826)
And I just want to make that very real and very visceral so that people aren't out here thinking like, oh, what a beautiful picture of parenting you guys have painted. And sometimes it's a little uncomfortable. I really like to make it as real as possible for people.

Jeevan (01:15:44.977)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:15:54.765)
Hehehehe

Jeevan (01:16:03.053)
I'm glad you opened up that thread because I will circle back to this kung fu story where I pushed my daughter to do it for a year before she could give up. After she stopped it and we had talked about it. And I said, you know, you were so good at it, whatever, like why aren't you so interested, whatever. And at one point she told me, I did it for you, not for me. And that crushed me, because I just thought.

Jennie (01:16:10.743)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:16:14.025)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:16:26.686)
Mmm.

Jennie (01:16:32.802)
Ugh.

Jeevan (01:16:32.949)
Did I just make the biggest mistake and like punish her for a year, just made her go to this thing? You know, and so you're right, it's hard. I'm sitting here and I have the privilege, you know, to talk about things in retrospect and highlight good things, but it's grueling day to day. And I make more mistakes than I can count. But to your point that...

Jennie (01:16:40.539)
Yeah.

Papa Rick (01:16:54.217)
Yeah.

Jeevan (01:17:01.193)
That is the real part of the journey, and I think you just have to accept it as part of.

Papa Rick (01:17:05.781)
Yeah. In this, in this social media oriented world where everybody is sharing the 10 best seconds of their life this week or this day, you know, it's important to keep in mind it's messy. You got to get in there and mess it up and give yourself some grace and move on and go on, you know, don't collapse in a heap. It seems like a lot of jobs guys get soldiering and stuff involve shutting off your feelings, you know, just shut up and do it.

Jennie (01:17:13.116)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:17:34.869)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:17:36.537)
And I don't know if it's being, I can't decide yet. I haven't thought of that just occurred to me. I can't decide if that's being sexist or not. I'm sure women do that too, but it seems a lot of things that guys are called on to do daily grind jobs, day in, day out, provide. And a lot of it is about the ability to compartmentalize and shut off your feelings and just slug through and get it done and get home and, uh, I wonder how much of that's natural and how much of that's social.

Jennie (01:18:08.67)
Yeah, I think a lot of that. I think men are socialized towards that more than women, but I think that patriarchy in general, the way that we are set up to work nine to fives to go to school, eight to three to, you know, don't have sick days, don't take vacation. I think there's still a lot of that toxic. Doesn't matter how you feel you need to get up and do it anyway. Don't listen to your body. Don't listen to your mind. Don't listen to your emotions. Like, that's all

BS, everything needs to be logical and rational and structured at all times. And I think that. Part of the patriarchy has been that masculine, you know, no, there's no flow, there's no space for rest and recuperation. You know, there's no paid maternity leave because you got to get back to work, just be a man and get back to work. And then, of course, men.

Papa Rick (01:18:41.915)
Mm-hmm.

Jennie (01:19:05.082)
are told not to have emotions and you're not supposed to because that's not manly. And I think it's both sides, but I do think men probably suffer from it more. They're raised or have been traditionally raised into it more.

Papa Rick (01:19:09.674)
Mm-hmm.

Papa Rick (01:19:21.665)
I wonder how that holds up across cultures. It'd be interesting, or is that, is that more a product of the American, uh, educational system, which is kind of set up to crank out factory workers, which are supposed to be at a place at a time, you know, how much of that is, that is, uh, by design in this culture.

Jennie (01:19:45.142)
All right, I feel like we could open a lot, many more cans of worms. And I apologize. I don't know what is coming through on the mic. There's heavy, we have a guest dog this week. My friend, my bestie dropped off her dog this morning. She's going into the mountains and you could not go with her. So there's been a lot of heavy breathing and little barks because he doesn't understand the podcast studio yet.

Jeevan (01:19:49.973)
Thank you.

Papa Rick (01:20:07.474)
Aww.

Papa Rick (01:20:11.849)
He's not been socialized for podcasts yet.

Jeevan (01:20:12.348)
Hahaha

Jennie (01:20:14.558)
He's not my dogs finally just learned that we come in here. They lay down and shut up. And my, this guest dog, um, is such a little sweetie and he just, he doesn't understand, he's like, who are you talking to and why aren't you talking to me? Um, so for anyone listening, whatever heavy breathing or weird sounds you heard this week, it's a dog in the background. Um, but anyway.

Papa Rick (01:20:27.615)
That's right. Yeah.

Jeevan (01:20:29.064)
Exactly.

Jennie (01:20:42.466)
Jeevon, thank you so much for spending time with us. And yes, I'll get to you.

Papa Rick (01:20:50.189)
Great to meet you.

Jennie (01:20:53.003)
Yes.

Jeevan (01:20:53.473)
Nice to meet you, Rick. Thank you, Jenny.

Papa Rick (01:20:55.041)
Keep it up with the, keep it up with those young girls. Good work, making the world a better place.

Jeevan (01:21:01.073)
I appreciate it. And you've done an exceptional job with Jenny. So nice job.

Papa Rick (01:21:06.253)
I like to think so. Thank you.

Jennie (01:21:10.502)
Yeah. And we, one of my, just to let the listeners know, one of my goals, things that I'm striving for almost, we're almost done, shush, has been to get more male perspective, male guests, and hopefully dads specifically. I have a couple more on the docket and I am wanting to

Papa Rick (01:21:23.501)
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Jennie (01:21:38.062)
to balance out the perspectives between men and women and moms and dads on the podcast. And so I think it's really powerful and important, the perspective that you do bring, Jeevon, and it's a voice that needs to be heard. So, yeah, thank you. All right, everybody, happy parenting and good luck out there.

Jeevan (01:21:51.893)
Thank you.

Thank you.