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Joe Hancock may be the most-mentioned, least-seen name in modern golf course architecture.
In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, host Matt Considine and cohost Dr. Kevin Moore sit down with Joe (@joeytheknows on Twitter), golf course shaper, designer, superintendent, operator, and longtime DeVries Design collaborator.
Joe has one of those golf lives that seem to run beneath the surface of the game and the grounds we play on. He grew up around golf in Michigan, worked as a superintendent, owned and operated a family golf course, helped build The Mines with Mike DeVries, and has since shaped and collaborated on projects with some of the most respected architects in the modern game.
The conversation dives into:
- Joe’s friendship and working relationship with Mike DeVries, from childhood summers on Crystal Lake to shaping The Mines in Grand Rapids
- Why being a former superintendent and golf course operator changed the way Joe thinks about clients, budgets, maintenance, and the people who actually play the course
- The quiet art of shaping, including how a shaper learns when to execute, when to suggest, and when to let the land do most of the work
- Broomsedge, Candy Root, and the design decisions that create charm, confusion, restraint, half-par holes, and shots that stay with you after the round
- The case for more accessible, affordable, interesting public golf — and why the future of the game needs more than expensive destination architecture
Connect with our guest
🚜 Joe Hancock — https://devriesdesigns.com/joe-hancock — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/JoeytheKnows
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Chapters
00:00 Allergies, handkerchiefs, putting woes, and intentional practice
10:02 Titleist fitting, descent angle, and getting on to the show
12:08 Joe Hancock joins The Bag Drop
14:16 Growing up with Mike DeVries and finding golf course work
22:17 Building The Mines and discovering a life in shaping
26:45 What owning and operating a golf course taught Joe about service
32:13 Collaboration, humility, and getting inside an architect’s head
42:15 What the best architects have in common
44:25 Broom Sedge, challenge, charm, and half-par golf
47:39 How Joe ended up at Broom Sedge
56:04 The mystery and strategy of Broom Sedge’s 18th hole
01:06:38 Firm golf, color, turf, restraint, and maintenance expectations
01:13:06 Candy Root and doing less to the land
01:20:29 Public versus private golf and the future of access
01:31:26 What’s next for Joe Hancock
What is The Bag Drop?
The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community, and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in-depth discussions on all things golf.
What is NewClub?
Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.
Creators and Guests
Host
Matt Considine
Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.
Host
The Professor
NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.
What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?
Weekly stories from the communities and characters shaping the game. The Bag Drop blends thoughtful, honest perspectives of Matt Considine (Founder of NewClub) and Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") with expert insights for passionate golfers at every level. Produced by NewClub and supported by our members, each episode welcomes guests from clubs, courses, and the lesser-known corners of the golf world for thoughtful discussions on all things golf and life.
Founded in 2017, NewClub is the first of its kind golf society in the United States; blending the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability more typical of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions, and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, along with signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is on a mission to revolutionize golf membership, making the game more meaningful for everyone who loves it.
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Matt Considine (00:05.37)
Welcome to the New Club Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Considine here with my friend and co-host, the professor, Professor Slantcha. Good morning. How are you?
Joe (00:08.111)
.
The Professor (00:17.308)
hanging in there coming out of allergy season down here in Athens, Georgia. So I'm very excited to get rid of the pollen. It's, you know, nothing but yellow for about a full month. Nothing but sniffles, nothing but persistent nose drip. Not my favorite time of year.
Matt Considine (00:30.814)
Now we get to deal with it up north, except down south, I will say it always crushes me when I come down and visit you, but you can just see the pollen. I don't remember that up here in the Midwest where you just see pollen floating off the tree. Off the Georgia pines, it just flows, don't you? can actually visually see it annihilating you.
Joe (00:42.99)
you
The Professor (00:52.462)
Yeah, you. Yeah, when you're driving along the highway and you look at like, what is that stuff in here? And it's like, that's actually Paul and be swept being swept around by the wind.
Matt Considine (01:01.67)
What's your, I know you're a man of, you take after your father and you like to have a bag of tricks with you at all times. Like what's in that bag, professor, that helps you with allergies? Are you one of those people that has to switch every year? know, Allegra, Claritin, what's the, no free ads, but who are you using this year? What helps?
The Professor (01:20.808)
I finally went to an allergist. I've never really done that in my whole life. And they did the, you know, do all the pricks along your different arms and everything. And I'm just like, all right, we got cats recently. Maybe cats are a problem, whatever. And he walks in, he's like, he's a golfer as well. My allergist, he's like, you're basically allergic to the golf course. Everything that lit, everything that lit up is like, yeah, that's, like, and he's like, and it's problem is like, you're all tree pollen. So like, you can't rely on honey or anything like that.
Matt Considine (01:40.211)
I knew that's it.
The Professor (01:49.33)
to help you out. So he put me on stuff for a couple of years and I actually tapered off of it this year to see what happened and I wasn't, I was pretty good this year. So knock on wood.
Matt Considine (01:57.118)
You say, Doc, Doc, you're gonna have to run that back, buddy. Figure something out, because we're not hanging up the sticks.
The Professor (02:04.296)
That's right. So hopefully we're pretty good this year, you know, I keep a handkerchief on me just like my dad He had me using a handkerchief since I was a middle schooler definitely did not get made fun of for that at all and middle school
Matt Considine (02:15.366)
handkerchiefs are a, as a kid, thought they were the grossest thing on the planet. Like why is my dad putting his boogers back in his pocket? What is that about? Like just throw it away, man. But I become a handkerchief guy too. I think they're practical. They're kind of classy. My grandmother, God bless her, she would give us as grandkids a pack of handkerchiefs every year for Christmas. Every kid would get a pack of handkerchiefs. So I literally still have a stack of handkerchiefs.
The Professor (02:24.134)
Ha ha ha.
The Professor (02:41.412)
Hahaha.
Matt Considine (02:45.214)
I don't use them often, but I appreciate it now at this point. Do know what I'm allergic to?
The Professor (02:53.898)
What do you, I hope not gypsy.
Matt Considine (02:55.898)
No, well, maybe, but you know my wife and golden retrievers. I'm not changing that. I'm allergic to, I think every putter I own. I'm at a dark place, professor. I'm allergic to putting. I need a complete reset. I know we want to take the, we got an awesome guest today. I don't want to take the whole show, but I might be hitting you up later for some advice. We just gotta wipe the slate clean. I got too much going on in the cerebellum.
The Professor (03:04.699)
Cool.
The Professor (03:11.141)
What a view.
Matt Considine (03:25.214)
I switched putters for an outing yesterday, my nine hole league, and boy, it was dark. Well, I think you've shamed me enough on this show over the years of being a cheater with the arm lock. I think I gotta go back to it, because the bad with the arm bar isn't that bad, you know? But my peak speed isn't that great either. So I'm just stuck, man. I gotta figure it out.
The Professor (03:32.274)
So no more armlock. You moved out of the armlock.
The Professor (03:45.35)
Yeah. Yeah.
The Professor (03:54.313)
Sounds like, sounds like you just need a little practice. We might know a few people that can help you out on that. I tell you what, I hit balls, I hit balls for two hours the other day and I can't name the last time I've done that. It's been literally probably at least five, if not more years since I've done that. And I got to say, it's kind of amazing when you actually take the time to do that.
Matt Considine (03:57.34)
Maybe. Well, that's not going to happen. we're I'll play golf. I'll make time to play golf. I cannot I'm not making time for practice this year. I don't even think about it.
Joe (04:03.139)
.
The Professor (04:21.51)
how I went from in the woods to like, I can actually control my ball in just one session. It is a little stunning what actually some intentional focus practice will do for you.
Matt Considine (04:31.538)
Yeah. Well, you know, I don't know if it'll help our golf games today, but we got an awesome guest joining us. I know it's going to help our love and knowledge of this great game of golf. Joe Hancock. He's a golf course architect designer. But I, I'll tell you, I've heard this guy's name from so many different people that I really like in the game of golf, both architects and operators. And I didn't know who they were talking about. And now I do. And we'll get to that.
how we were introduced and all, but yeah, Joe Hancock has, been around this business for, for awhile.
The Professor (05:00.744)
I
The Professor (05:05.992)
I've been led to believe he was basically like a Kaiser associate where like he didn't exist because I've heard him from, mean, I don't know, from Reb, Rob Collins, like go through any architect I've basically ever met. Joe Hancock's name has come up and yet I've never seen him like seen online presence. Like, yeah, he has a little picture up on DeVries website, I believe. But outside that I'm like, this person, I don't think he actually
Matt Considine (05:10.366)
Love that cop.
Matt Considine (05:23.485)
Yeah.
The Professor (05:34.696)
exists like this is their like golf in the golf club or golf architectural world this is the name they use when they want like attribute something to someone and not actually have it real person I'm like that must be who this person is because I'm not sure if yes a ghost name exactly
Matt Considine (05:45.31)
It was a ghost name. Well, and we will confess we're talking digitally with Joe today. He might be AI generated at this point. It might not even be real person. We'll see. We'll see when we. Yeah.
The Professor (05:55.424)
oooo
We'll have to ask some good questions at Trick.ai. We'll have to like do some awkward phrasing, which we do naturally anyways.
Matt Considine (06:04.094)
Yeah, but the, you know, the, man is a, a Schaper, a construction specialist. He's lived and worked in both the Midwest, the Southeast. He's just worked, like we said, just across so many different landscapes, climates. And, um, you know, he was a class a superintendent. He owned and operated, uh, family owned and operated golf course in grand Rapids, which, you know, that's near and dear to my heart when we get operators on this show who have done that along with a lot of the.
Joe (06:19.966)
it.
The Professor (06:27.494)
huh.
Matt Considine (06:32.381)
know, sexier design and building. actually got to keep the lights on and run a PNL. But yeah, just a Michigander, great dude. It's going to be fun. Fun chat today. Before then, we don't want to talk about my putting woes. Do you have anything intelligent to share? Any profondications to get us going before we get to Joe?
The Professor (06:53.582)
Yeah, we'll do a quick one today sort of building on the intentional practice idea in terms of what I can do your golf game. I've been back into fitness this year and need to get back need to get back into it. So figuring out different ways to be efficient with your time in terms of doing the fitness stuff that you do. And one of the things research has shown over the last, you know, decade or two is how much your mindset actually matters when you're working out. So let's say you're wanting to do something with speed, right? So you're really thinking like, okay,
Joe (07:11.435)
you
The Professor (07:21.67)
Maybe it's a bench press, and I really want to be quick with it because I'm trying to build up that aspect of my fast twitch muscles. Just making sure you're thinking about doing that when you're doing the workout increases your gains relative to that. So you could take two people, take the identical person. In one case, they're thinking about going quick. In the other case, they're not thinking about going quick, but they're actually working out at the same speed. The person that's thinking about trying to go quick will actually have more speed gains in those cases.
Now this is also true, we brought this up on the podcast here today, putting your phone away when you're working out. One of the best things you can do, because you want to stay truly mentally focused into your workout, that will lead to bigger gains, just that mental focus. Even if your effort is exactly the same, but one day you have a phone on you and you're texting about work and the other day you don't, you'll get more gains out of the day that you don't have your phone on you. So in practicality, let's say you've had a long day, you don't have 45 minutes to work out.
Joe (08:05.821)
you
The Professor (08:19.784)
Rather than going half-assed through your 45 minutes, say like, no, I'm going to cut down to 25. I'm going say super focused and whatever. And you're better off doing that than going to 45 minutes and being distracted and stressed about your day or whatever there. So mindset matters when you're working out.
Matt Considine (08:32.904)
We've talked, we've talked about this online and one of the nicest elements of hosting a podcast is you get to talk to smart people and Dr. Ricky Pickett we had on last year, maybe the year before. He's my guy, we talk frequently and him and I had this exact conversation professor and you know what shook out? He's like, buddy, just you gotta get in a habit of doing it and I don't care if it's 10 minutes.
20 minutes, know, stop. So that's what I'm on now is like, I have three days a week that it's 20, 30 minutes tops and that's okay. You know, it's not Rory McRoy's workout or anyone else, but it's gonna work for me. Cause at least you're there and you're doing it and you know, or just go out and do some yard work. That's my other solution. Just spend over playing the dirt.
The Professor (09:02.332)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (09:25.128)
Yeah, I think I forget who the doctor that talks about it is if you want something if you if you're struggling to get in the gym, they suggest I think it's the three to five methods. So three to five days a week, when you're in there three to five exercises, three to five sets of three to five reps. So if you just do that, and you can take it down to three, so three days a week, three exercises, three sets with three reps, and just make sure you're focused, you know, ideally you're
Joe (09:26.533)
Okay.
The Professor (09:53.097)
trying to like build and max out to at least 85, 95 % on those. But just start there. Like you said, go listen to Ricky's episode. That was what last spring, think, early last spring.
Matt Considine (10:02.866)
think that's right around this time. Yeah, yeah, people getting maybe the winner. Well, yeah, and that if you want to play this game for a long time, like that's a part of it. You know, gotta take care of your body, take care of the temple so you can swing the sticks. But once you do, if you do keep yourself in that shape, you gotta go get fit. And the backdrop, New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titleist, their approach to fitting.
Joe (10:07.09)
So.
Matt Considine (10:29.854)
Three Ds, distance control, dispersion control and descent angle. Boy, did we talk a lot about descent angle at Augusta a few weeks ago with the, you know, the guys at the top of leaderboard were able to do that. Even Russell Henley, tight list guy, I think when he was making that run, he is a low ball hitter baby, but I saw with his T, I think he's a combination of the T100s, T150s. He was getting up to a peak height, you know, probably 90, 95 feet.
Joe (10:50.568)
you
Matt Considine (10:56.926)
It's not the 120 that Rory can probably get it to, but he was getting it up there and that was so needed for the conditions they had. I think everyone thought it was going to be farmer, but for yourself, it is about that optimal balance, right? Distance control, dispersion control, descent angle. It's why the professor and I are always after the years of being partnered with Titleist, we've done our own fittings and we just encourage our family and friends and everybody else to just, you know, go get fit from their certified professionals. They know what they're doing.
I'm actually pushing my old man to go try out the two fifties and three fifties this year. He doesn't want to admit it, but he needs a little more juice. He needs something souped up. I've hit both and I myself, I'm a scratch golfer, but I myself like, I can't think of a reason not to have it in the bag. You know, it's, it's, still carries. It still has that arc. It still has that height, but it, it's the forgiveness that you're looking for in those two fifties, three fifties. So I check them all out over the full line on.
The Professor (11:31.944)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (11:35.953)
you
The Professor (11:43.976)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Considine (11:56.872)
Titleist.com. Professor, let's get on to show.
Joe Hancock, welcome to the Bag Drop.
Joe (12:08.103)
Thank you, nice to meet you Matt and Kevin. It's pleasure to be here.
Matt Considine (12:12.732)
We've been pen pals, I feel like we've been missing each other. You're always on a dozer. My kids are always screaming. So we haven't actually been able to talk. This is our first time, but I'm very excited, Joe, to be with you. My first question though is, is it, and I said this in my intro, we have heard your name a bunch of times and I didn't think it was the same guy for a while just because it was too many references. But is it Joe? Is it Joey? I've heard it both ways. Tell me, do you got an alias out there?
Joe (12:18.4)
Joe (12:40.872)
Well, yeah, Joey Joey kind of grew its own legs with a nickname of Joey the nose, but I've always gone by Joe. I didn't like Joey when I was young. My aunt Ruth used to call me Joey and I always didn't like that, but it doesn't matter now. I kind of don't care. You know, that's just one of those things that there's.
Matt Considine (12:41.618)
What is your, what do you go by?
Joe (13:07.653)
many other important things in life than to worry about what somebody's calling you.
Matt Considine (13:12.674)
Joey the nose sounds like you had a career before golf course architecture. was there something
Joe (13:15.687)
Well, I try to use it as an intimidating factor if somebody sees things other than the way I want to do it, but you know, it never works.
Matt Considine (13:24.702)
Yeah, you don't want to owe somebody money named Joey the nose. That wouldn't be...
Joe (13:27.911)
Well, it's hard to be menacing if you're always laughing and smiling and I haven't been able to conquer that.
Matt Considine (13:36.59)
That's why no one is ever afraid of me, Joe. Well, the professor and I, like we said, we've been excited to chat with you. There's this background you have, I guess I'll start with your childhood buddy, Mike DeVries. He's been on the show a number of times. He's a lot of listeners' favorite guest. I've been told that. And I think it's the combination of a guy being so educated on the topic, but also just such a...
Joe (13:39.815)
Yeah
Joe (14:04.379)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (14:06.086)
normal guy and you you could feel yourself just playing a quick night and sharing a beer with them. Tell us, you guys go back, tell us where you met Mike and how that started.
Joe (14:16.581)
Yeah, so Mike's family, who was from the Grand Rapids area as well, but they had a cottage up on Crystal Lake and my grandpa had a cottage on Crystal Lake two doors away. And so when we were real young, five, six, seven years old, we used to swim in the lake, ride bikes, play board games on rainy days. We were either at their cottage or they were at ours. There was a lot of other...
people up there that we got to know as well. so, you Mike and I have known each other a long, long time. And then it was, you know, we hit the teen years. I got my first job on a golf course at 16 years old, which happened to be the golf course my wife's family owned. You know, didn't know that, you know, didn't know any of that part was coming along until a few years later. But, you know, I started working in the summers.
down in Grand Rapids area. Mike got a job at Crystal Downs in summers up north. And so we were each in golf, but we didn't know it. And I had moved south. I spent 10 years in Eastern North Carolina as a irrigation guy and as a golf course superintendent. And I really thought I was going to be a golf course superintendent my whole career. That's kind of what I was, I mean, that's what I loved doing. you know, it...
The benefit obviously was playing a lot of golf, but I loved being a golf course superintendent. And I saw friends in the Carolinas were getting involved in building new courses and they were doing grow ins. And I was fascinated by that whole process. You know, it looked like a lot of work, but it looked like, you know, really fulfilling work. And one summer I had a chance to go back to Michigan on vacation, kind of stumbled onto a
new golf course being built in central Michigan. So I went up and took a job and started growing that one in and then got hired to go do another one up the road and just happened to go back to the family cottage for a weekend with my family. Ran into Mike and you know, Mike's, what are you doing? Well, I'm a golf course growing superintendent on a new project. He's like, no kidding. I'm golf course architect.
Joe (16:41.794)
And from there, it just kind of, you know, we, started kind of going and visiting each other's projects. You know, at that time I didn't know. I mean, I was hungry for learning more about design, but I didn't know that my career was going to shift. And then in 2004, Mike called me up and by then we had bought my wife's family's golf course. So we were operating that we'd done. We bought that in 97.
And Mike had come, you he used to bring, like I remember when he brought Brett Hochstein to come visit because I was doing some stuff agronomically that was kind of, you know, not the norm. I was trying to really dry out and firm up the golf course. And Mike was a huge advocate of that and also a big cheerleader for what I was doing. So he would bring people in and, but he knew that we were at a stage where
You know, the golf course was really a lot less work than it was when we took it over because of the agronomics. And so in 2004, he said, Hey, you know, come help me build this golf course called the mines in Grand Rapids. And so I did. And that was kind of the, the uncovering of a, you know, a talent that I didn't know I had in the shaping world. And, you know, it took a while for Mike to kind of, you know, teach me enough to
to at least know some basics. Like I remember it was the 14th T and Mike wanted me to go shape these T's. And I said, I don't even know where to start. He said, well, just build a landform. I shrugged my shoulder. I don't even know what that means, but what do you, it was like, you know, it was like he was talking Greek to me. It was all very clear language, but I didn't really understand what he meant. So, but you know, Mike was a very.
The Professor (18:25.992)
Ha
Matt Considine (18:27.39)
Ha ha!
Joe (18:38.945)
a patient mentor and would just spend as much time as I needed to understand some of the things. And they started taking me on these golf study trips. you know, because when we got done with the mines, he was like, man, that went really well. Do you want to keep going? And I said, yes. And that was kind of that was setting up for what eventually became us selling the golf course, you know, just tough economy, a tough partnership in the golf family, golf business.
And so it set me up for having somewhere to go after that. And, you know, it was a horrible time to get into golf shaping and design because it was the end of 2007 when we sold our golf course. you know, there was a couple really lean years there where just trying to find some projects. One of the first big projects I went to was with David Kidd out in Idaho.
It was called Huntsman Springs at the time. It's called the tributary now, but that was very fortuitous and that gave me a place to go. then it created a fairly long term relationship with the DMK camp and whatnot. But Mike and I, yeah, long ways back to childhood, continue to, we talk a lot. We haven't been able to work together since 2019, just
The Professor (19:41.905)
Mm-hmm.
Joe (20:07.071)
know, Mike's been in Tasmania doing some really, really cool stuff. I've stayed busy here in the States. And, you know, we're hoping, kind of looking, trying to find something that we can put our collective efforts towards and do something. But until we know what that is, we'll just keep badgering each other.
The Professor (20:32.744)
Joe, it's crazy to think how circumstantial and coincidental that is, that you have this summer cottage by Mike, you decide to go work at a golf course, get brought in by Mike to work on the mines. I want to circle back to that because you jumped through that like it was just a snap of fingers, yeah, go work in the mines. You had a life, you were thinking at that time, maybe you were working at the golf course, owning the golf course, running it right. What was that conversation? Yeah.
Joe (20:57.389)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Considine (20:58.762)
Dating the owner's daughter first actually, Kev. I gotta jump in here, Joe. think Trixie had something to do with that.
Joe (21:01.667)
Well, yeah, Trixie probably is owed a lot more of the any successes we've enjoyed in the in the golf world. Just she's such a wonderful person and she grew up in golf. So she's always been really comfortable hanging around the golf folks. You know, so she's, know, and she has a very good ability of
The Professor (21:03.333)
You
Joe (21:31.118)
kind of seen past anybody's pretense or successes. She just sees every human on kind of this equal basis, which is really refreshing. There's no hero worshiping with her. So watching her interact with some of these guys who've been really successful is fun because she won't hesitate to slug somebody in the shoulder if they say the wrong thing or whatever.
You know, very playfully, but you know, she's fun to have along. But yeah, so anyways.
The Professor (22:05.884)
Love it. So when Mike came to you to say, Hey, come work on the mines. What was that internal conversation like for you? Was this just a, okay, that simple or was there sort of the
Joe (22:17.067)
No, no. So obviously as a partner in an ownership of a business, there was some hurdles that needed to be jumped through, but we were struggling a little bit financially, just mom and pop golf doesn't make a ton of money anyway. we had some, our golf course was in a flood plain. We'd had a really tough spring with flooding.
And so I just went to my partner. said, Hey, look, I'll keep my benefits. I'll take half my pay, whatever. But I'd really like to just go help Mike build this golf course as another source of income. And I'll just, come in every morning at 5 a.m. and you know, make sure the crew has all they need. And if I need to do any spraying or whatever I needed to do, I would take care of our golf course first. But it's also funny, Kevin, that
the owner of the mines, who's become a very dear friend. you know, at first he was kind of hesitant to bring me on board because he had already hired a young superintendent. So he couldn't understand why Mike wanted me so strongly. And finally, after about maybe the fifth time of Mike, you know, pitching his case, he finally said, okay, you know, get Joe out here. Well, and to this day, that was, that golf course was the
quickest build that I've ever been involved with from start to finish. So the first day a tree dropped to the last day of seeding was only five months in a week. And it was, it was a hundred acres of trees. So, I mean, there wasn't, it wasn't like there was nothing to do, but you know, Mike and I, you know, Mike obviously shaped all the grains apart from one of them, the 18th, but
He let me do that kind of as, I had developed, but, um, he and I finished every tee green and bunker ourselves, including all the seating and everything. So Mike and I were out there, you know, 14, 15 hours a day. The owner was out there with us too. was, you know, I, I literally cried on the last day of seating. I didn't want it to be done. I was having so much fun.
Joe (24:41.077)
that I just broke down and we had put so much energy into it and I had never been through that. So, you know, I didn't know what to expect, but I just had tears running down my face on the last day because it was so cool.
Matt Considine (24:54.942)
You know, I, Gosh, that, place, my funny story is, is, gosh, early days of new club, probably. I know I had one child at least probably a year and a half old. My wife was pregnant and we were doing, that's right. We were doing our baby moon up in Northern Michigan and we drive up and we played, I played pilgrims run on my wife hung out. and, and then on the way back, it was pouring down rain and it wasn't going to be playing golf.
but she was much like your wife, Joe. She tolerates my insanity. And we drove around in the pouring down rain, the mines. I just wanted to see it. I just wanted to see it. We had had Mike on the show by that time. He commented on it and the landfarms are so unique. I mean, you're right outside Grand Rapids. My goodness. What I would give to have a publicly accessible golf course where I live like that, like in my, just outside town.
I, I, I got to imagine like what, what, what a fun, just like you said, tears me. mean, starting with that and it being accessible and also coming from an operator of an accessible golf course. I, I, I'm curious is, is your, you know, was it 20 years as a owner and operator of a golf course, is that one of the pieces that makes you so,
versatile with all the different people you've worked with, are, because I frankly, a lot of those guys just didn't come from that background, right? They went to school for it, they studied for it. And you did it is, do you consider that a little bit of your superpower, maybe that like, man, you just look through it through that critical eye of if you're owning and operating a place, you're, you know, the business owner is just going to feel differently about
Joe (26:45.345)
I think what's what it impacted me the most, it's not so much on the, you know, maintainability or return on investment. know, none of the, none of the business model stuff. I don't feel like it really had a strong effect where I, where I think it really helped me in my next career of being a shaper and designer and whatever was I have a very
sensitive awareness to the fact that we are working for a client. There's this business relationship that you need to make sure that you are a pleasant customer or client or you know whichever end of the thing you're on. You have to be easy to deal with. You have to be trying to give them what they want.
whether it's the owner of the project you're working on or the architect you're working for, depending on the role. But there's that whole customer service and that for me, that almost supersedes a lot of the other thoughts. It's like we have to make sure that we're serving our client in a very positive way and make sure that they want to do business with you again.
You know, it's sometimes I think we can get too caught up in maybe in a self-important way we get caught up thinking that we're only there to do what we think is the best thing. And that's true to an extent, but there's a bigger equation than that. It's not a simple one plus one equals two kind of thing. There's more depth to it.
I just, feel like customer service and it can go back to, you know, an architect calls you and leaves a message because you couldn't take the call, but you get back to them in a prompt way and just say, Hey, you know, Hey, what's, what do you have going on? I'm interested to hear it being optimistic, whatever. but you know, there's, there's stories out there, people that just don't return a call for a month because you know,
Joe (29:07.091)
they're busy, whatever that means, you know. But I just, I'm not worried that way. I'm gonna make sure that I'm gonna talk to whoever in a quick manner.
Matt Considine (29:17.074)
Yeah, and I just love thoughtful people in the game of golf. What you said is so thoughtful because it's the truth. And I've had this with buddies that are fellow golf heads, architecture nerds, we're out playing and I'll actually, I've become a business nerd, Joe, and I combine the two nerderies of business nerd and golf nerd all the time. when it comes to design, sometimes I do see the marriage of who the
customer is and who it was built for with what the design is and I think a lot of our comments are just around the art of it or just around the strategic element of it and I actually think it's a level deeper to consider well if they made that Severity that you're talking about with the the landform guess what? rounds at Sand Valley might be six hours and that's not how the clientele is and you know that there's considerations like that and when you
Joe (29:56.702)
Hmm.
Matt Considine (30:15.678)
put it in that frame, as you said, of who are you working for and who the customer is, that starts to explain some decisions that are probably made out there in the dirt, right? And I don't think many of us as fans of golf and golfers know that.
Joe (30:30.781)
Well, in the Mines, the Mines golf course was kind of some of the eye opening aspects of that. know, Mike intentionally didn't put a lot of bunkers out there. There's just enough. And, and, you know, Mike always said, well, the contour of the land is enough challenge for most public golfers. They don't need anything else. And, you know, so there was a conscious decision to do less bunkering.
And you know, that was, those were some of the early lessons for me. It's like, okay, you know, so, you know, there was some other psychological things I learned from Mike and routing and, know, there was quest. And I mentioned it on the other podcasts that I, I'll ask a million questions if I'm interested in something. Mike loved that. I remember him calling Fred Mueller, who was the long time pro at Crystal Downs. he was, Mike was good friends with Fred and they had a special relationship, but he told.
Fred on the phone, said, Hey, I'm working with this guy, Joe Hancock. He's already asked me more questions in the first half of the day than most guys ask in a whole project. You know, and Mike loved that. He, he, he would boast about that. Um, about me that I was, I had that childlike curiosity where I, know, and it was true. I just, I really wanted to get into the head of a good architect. And, know, Kevin, back to your point about, know, just fateful timing in life. mean,
You know, Mike was the right guy for me at that time of my career to just be that fountain of knowledge. And, you know, he just set everything in place for me to just continue my journey. So it's great.
The Professor (32:13.64)
Joe, you bring up getting into the head of an architect and you've been so fortunate to work with so many different architects. And the messages I hear is exactly what you're saying, that you're inquisitive, you're incredibly humble. So I'm going to put this question on you though. What is it about you that makes you work so well with so many different people? Because that is the message I get from literally I think every person your names come up with.
Joe (32:40.35)
Well, I'm grateful that that's how people are talking about me and maybe your question is better put to them. But if I had to answer, I would like to think that part of it is, you know, just trying to be an optimist and be, you know, a positive mentality guy of trying to get through each day.
But there's also maybe another part that is, and as I've gotten older, I've become a little less afraid to share thoughts and ideas with the architects I'm working with and say, hey, you know, know that we have this feature here, but what if we move this over there, you know, 30 yards to the right, and then, you know, then we have this green that kind of aligns with that green. It's kind of a cool backdrop, or is that not a good thing that we want here? Or, you know, I'll,
not just kind of sit back and go about the day doing what somebody tells me. I think one of the benefits of being in the machine often is there's a lot of thinking time. You get to look at things from the perspective of being out on the property all the time and not having to deal with client issues or budget issues or permitting issues. You sometimes when you're, you know, Joe the Shaper, you're kind of unencumbered by
some of the other nuisances of the job. And so then I get to think of things and see things differently. I'm not bashful about kind of suggesting that maybe we have a different opportunity. most architects appreciate that. If it is delivered in a way that isn't an ego trip, if the message is delivered...
with the full intent of making the project the best it can be, nobody rejects it. And of course then it just makes the whole collaboration more fun. I tend to be pretty playful anyway, you know, it's, I don't know. If people are out there speaking positively, you know, it may be as much about, you know.
Joe (35:05.348)
joyfulness and happiness and stuff like that as it is talent or you know intellectual stuff that may or may not exist so you know I'm gonna try to I'm gonna try to bring the fun to the job too.
Matt Considine (35:18.664)
Joe, it does sound like fun. I'll be honest. I actually, after dropping my kids off this morning, I drove down a side street and there was an excavating company just fixing something in somebody's yard. And the guy that was on this thing just digging, he had a cigar out at 8 a.m. and he just looked happy. And I go, I need to rewrite my career. I think that, maybe it wasn't even a golf course. That looks like fun. Little kids love dump trucks and.
You know, excavators, my kids, those were one the first big words they ever said was excavator. What you do is fun. And I, I'll get to a question here. our listeners, you know, we've had shapers on, think most folks will know what a shaper is, but what you described, is there an evolution of a, of a shaper? I'm sure there is, but when do you go from, all right, I gotta execute, you know, Mike's plan or.
Keith's plan or whoever. And, and, I'm sure there's trying to stick with just what was described to you, you know, following those orders as a young shaper or an early shaper. And then to what you described there of like contributing some ideas and maybe doing something a little differently. Can you talk about the balance of that and the spectrum of that? And maybe how did you, how did you go through that and how did you decide what you like and what you don't like? Cause I feel like it could just be a
preference at a certain point.
Joe (36:49.19)
Well, preference plays a huge part of it. you know, back to Mike DeVries, you know, it was interesting that it wasn't necessarily that I knew my preferences were similar to Mike's, because I didn't know that I had preferences. But when we started going and looking at things together, you know, I would see things that I didn't like. You know, they just didn't fit my eye or whatever. And I would ask Mike, why don't...
like that. And sometimes he wouldn't be able to answer it. Sometimes they're simply your own thing that you own. It's like, just don't like that. I made an edit on one of the greens at Candy Root yesterday and it was simply a visual thing that I didn't like and it didn't bother anybody else. between Kaprowski and I, had a conversation. He's like, yeah.
Well, go ahead, let's see what happens. I'm never gonna be the rogue guy that goes and, especially if I know somebody likes something, I'm not gonna change it. But maybe back to the evolution part, I think where I started becoming more vocal in sharing ideas was after I had opportunities to do design projects or design build projects on my own.
you know, an early one was Grand Valley State University, hired me to design and build a short game practice area for their golf teams. And, you know, so I, which was kind of a, you know, a big bite for me because it was not only one of the first design opportunities, but it was also trying to work within the realm of a university with all this, you know,
bonds and you know, other requirements, know, prevailing wage, all this other stuff that you had to try to work within. And, you know, that was all foreign language to me. So I was working through that and fortunately had some advocates in the project for me and made my life a lot easier. But you do stuff like that, or I did a, I did a private facility for a guy in Wisconsin, a practice facility that
Joe (39:18.006)
to this day I'm so proud of and like every year if I go back and visit it almost brings a tear to my eye how good this guy maintains his backyard 25 acre facility that is like, it's perfect and it's got this cult following in Minneapolis all the superintendents are like when I retire I'm going there I want to take care of that and but you those opportunities to do design work even if they're on the smaller level help
embolden you to know.
what of your ideas might be worth sharing or not sharing. Certainly knowing the personalities of the architects you're working with has a lot to do with how you present your ideas or how willing you are to present ideas. Most of the guys I've worked with have been very, very welcoming of having that input. So that makes it fun.
So if I'm bold with sharing ideas, I'm gonna blame some of the other people that have encouraged me to. But yeah, Rob and Tad, for instance, they're so respectful and so much fun to work with that there's times where they just kind of say, I think the green's over there, go see what you can find.
Matt Considine (40:24.798)
Hahaha.
The Professor (40:24.914)
Ha
Love that.
Matt Considine (40:44.254)
Hehehe.
Joe (40:44.697)
And because I kind of know what they are looking for, I'll go do something and try to try to put their spin on it. And then we'll and then they come and then feed off that vibe and start, you know, what if we do this? What if we do that kind of thing? And you keep going and playing and massaging and until you get it where they like fall in love with it and say, that's it, that's done. Love it. Let's move on. So, but yeah, it is an evolution.
The Professor (41:11.08)
Yeah, I think.
Joe (41:13.753)
You don't start there. And I don't know how other shapers, I mean, I think it's kind of a personal journey of how you go from, you know, just learn how to run a machine and then learn what shapes work or what grades work or whatever, until you get to a point where, you know, a lot of it becomes intuition.
The Professor (41:37.989)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think one of the best thing someone can do is give someone with talent agency and just let them let them cook. Yeah, you've I want to dive I can you brought it and get into the head of getting into the head of architects you brought that phrase earlier and I think the easy question would be to ask you, know, what are the differences you've seen across architects? I'm more interested across the group you've worked with which you've worked with, you know this generations best
Matt Considine (41:38.386)
Yeah.
The Professor (42:04.572)
What are similarities you see across them that make them sort of stand out as the best architects and then for you the best architects to work with and shape for?
Joe (42:15.08)
That's a great question, Kevin. I think the first answer that pops into my mind is the architects that I feel like have the strongest chops are the ones that have tried and true design tenets. In other words, they don't blow with the wind. They're not guys that are just following what's trendy or a fad right now.
There people that have these kind of strong design tenants that are going to show up on every job and you're not going to just go and try whatever's new and exciting. You know, because you can, you can sit there and keep playing around with new ideas. And I'm glad that people do that. At end of the day, you're kind of playing with somebody else's money too, you know.
So, but the guys that just have really strong design tenants, know, Mike DeVries is, you know, he's so entrenched in, you know, McKenzie design philosophies, you know, that his design principles are really strong and he's, you know, he's fully convicted of what he thinks is the right thing. And that serves him very well.
You know, Rob Collins on the other hand is a guy who's entrenched in this very playful aspect of golf, a very, you know, exploratory and that's a design tenant and he's very committed to it. he may say, yeah, it may seem silly because I try to talk them off the ledge. So at times they'll say it may seem silly, but I really want to do it. I think it'll be cool. And, and so that's, but that's a design tenant that he's
The Professor (44:02.119)
You
Joe (44:09.836)
that he feels very strongly about and that makes him, in my mind, a good architect. know, Kevin, I think that's probably the main one, just really strong conviction to their design tenants.
Matt Considine (44:25.854)
I love that. That's so applicable to life, right? Tenants and principles, not being afraid to try new things, but also understand, it's like they know who they are is what I heard there, Joe. It's that you stick to your principles and yes, they gotta be challenged and questioned and how you go about, know, an individual green could have all sorts of different input, but overall, you know,
I see that in like the best leaders too, that they express those tenants really well. And then everybody that's working on something together, they understand the vision, even though they might disagree on how to get there. That's okay. You can have those conversations. That's really, I've never thought about that in your world of architecture, but that's pretty profound to me. That's really cool.
Another, I got to jump us to Broom Sedge. I knew this would, we could talk to all day, Joe, but I'm wearing the merch. I loved this place and, and, you know, just the whole story behind it, you know, the architect on the land and these Chicago mid-amp guys came in and made it real. And, and I know those guys are, wonderful human beings as well, but I've heard the same about Mike Kaproski. So I love the team that's been involved in Broom Sedge, but then I got to play it.
And I guess the headline is challenge meets charm for me. I thought, I thought the routing was just so beautifully well done. You kind of go up into these corners and it uses, it's just a really great walk. I'd love to take my dog on a walk there. Okay. That's it was, that's where it started for me. So it reminded me of a lot of the Heathland courses in England and, reminded me a little bit of said Valley perhaps up in sand Valley. but like it, it's, it's growing in.
Joe (46:07.552)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (46:20.798)
Like, you know, that's part of being a new golf course. But I also, that aside, I started to see the timelessness of it. And I think that's what I geeked out on the most is that, you know, it's not a brute in terms of length, but it can play really challenging. I've never, right now, and maybe it's recency bias, I can't think of a course with more half pars. You know, a whole that could be a three or a four, could be a four or a five.
Joe (46:48.074)
Yeah, right.
Matt Considine (46:49.15)
That was with the right pin placement could be a two or a three on some of those bowls in the short part threes. I think it was six across the water. We had a bullpen there. I just I got to imagine the half par thing. And then maybe this is where I'll kick us off on Broom's Edge with my question. A lot of those half pars require. Some specific shaping and land movement and and the consideration of pin placements. Tell me about.
Joe (46:58.688)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (47:16.776)
Broom Sedge from the Shaper's perspective and maybe get to like a specific landform that just, you you did one of those pivots or you did what, you know, hey Mike, here's what I see. there's a lot of our listeners were with us at Broom Sedge, so I think that would be cool to hear from your perspective, were there any of those that came out in the field?
Joe (47:39.7)
Well, yeah, it was almost, almost daily. Mike, Mike's a deep thinker, you know, super smart guy. You know, it's an interesting project because, A, they didn't invite me to come to the project. I just, I heard about it, made a call to another fellow Shaper said, Hey, do you know who they have at Broomsedge?
Cause I honestly, I was looking for somewhere warm to go for the winter. so I got Kyle's number, I called Kyle. Kyle said, no, we don't have anybody lined up. You're available? You know, kind of almost surprised. And I said, yeah, I'd love to go down and help you guys. Didn't know anything about either of them. Had never met either of them. Kind of.
After I knew that Kyle had said they didn't have anybody, knew that they needed somebody, almost like jumped ahead of the game and rented a house and just told Koprowski when I was going to be there. You know, it was so I just I kind of showed up, you know, and it was like it's been this super fortuitous relationship because we both, A, which was, you know, just really enjoy being around each other.
Matt Considine (48:49.704)
That's awesome, I didn't know this.
Joe (49:01.877)
And B, know, similar mindset of what golf is and, you know, he's so new at this, but also, you know, very complex thinker. He's taught me stuff already on shaping that I had learned in the previous 20 years. You know, that, you know, just never gave the thought that that was part of the golfer's challenge. So.
So now, you know, now we've got this other tool in the toolbox, but back to Broomstead, you know, so every day that he was there, we'd spend a lot of time walking and looking and thinking and talking about, know, he had these pretty specific, tenants that he was trying to, you know, impose on the land in terms of, you know, a was, you know, he has a very strong affinity for, Pinehurst number two. He loves Pinehurst number two.
rightfully so. So, you know, I started kind of going, well, okay, you know, we're not going to have a whole bunch of punch bowl grains here. So, you know, we'll work on that. But then, you know, some of the other things that, you know, we worked on were, you know, just making sure that, you know, lines mattered or angles mattered, which is really hard when you think of the really accomplished or elite golfer.
The Professor (50:09.64)
you
Joe (50:30.58)
Angles don't matter. They hit it so high up in the air it comes down so soft. You're not really thinking for those people though. You're thinking for everybody else. If somebody can go out there and shoot 63 because they can hit it 340 yards and have 9 iron into a 520 yard hole, God bless them, but you can't design for that. You just gotta let them have it.
The Professor (50:34.684)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (50:57.223)
Thank
Joe (50:59.11)
or hope that they can't read your greens. you know, Broom Sedge, yeah, Broom Sedge was a really interesting property because there was a lot of opportunity to build confusing things. You know, number one green, right off the bat. You know, I shaped the green, I popped up a little, just a little rise in the back right corner.
You're standing out in the fairway, especially if you're on the left side of the fairway, it looks like you're hitting into a green that's pitched back at you. But most of the green runs away at like 3%. So, you know, that, but that's the kind of stuff that I love to do. And these kinds of properties really allow for that because you can do some things. If you don't fight the land, you know, try to make things pitch back at the golfer at 2 % or whatever. You let the land kind of dictate what.
putting surfaces are going to be, it can be really confusing to a lot of golfers because they have these expectations of how a ball should react when it hits a green. But sometimes it's not what it seems when you're looking at it. So Broomstead did a lot of that and Mike and I, you know, had a lot of time together talking about that stuff. And it's interesting, you know, when we talk about Broomstead,
from like Kyle Francis perspective, because Kyle had a couple other projects going on and he was just in the middle of it with those two and he made his trips to Berm's Edge. you know, and I would have enjoyed that interaction too, but it really turned out where I was spending most of the time with Mike and kind of, you know, being his onsite associate that kind of, you know, you know, the
the seasoned veteran to kind of help do a little hand holding. Not they needed a ton, but there was times where we just made some good decisions that made the place turn out as special as I think it is. So.
Matt Considine (53:04.37)
That is so much more insight than I thought I was going to get there, Joe. And I didn't know he just showed up. I mean, that's the professor with this podcast. One day he just showed up and he's been a cohost for like three years.
The Professor (53:13.96)
I stole a link from someone and just popped in and said, hey, what you doing, man?
Joe (53:14.291)
You
Matt Considine (53:19.352)
Like all the Gen Z's out there that complain about the job market, there's your answer. Stop applying for jobs and just show up. That's awesome.
Joe (53:27.827)
Well, there's probably truth to that, man. mean, you know, sometimes, sometimes it does take just a bold move of saying I'm the guy you need. And it's not like an ego trip or anything. It's, know, sometimes it's a hunch. You know, sometimes, you know, like there was no way for me to know what the fit was going to be like at Bruin's Edge. I just had a hunch that it was kind of the right move.
Matt Considine (53:32.498)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (53:40.232)
Yeah.
The Professor (53:40.392)
Mm-hmm.
The Professor (53:46.514)
Mm-hmm.
Joe (53:57.619)
And so then when Candy Root came up and started talking with Mike about that, then it was easy. It was like full on board.
Matt Considine (54:10.302)
Well, I wanna talk about a couple of these shapes you created out there and Professor, one of our, I will, so.
Joe (54:16.135)
I want you to get specific with that too. I want to know which ones you that you're thinking about.
The Professor (54:18.256)
he's been venting. He's been venting about a very specific hole.
Matt Considine (54:21.094)
You mentioned.
Matt Considine (54:25.47)
All right. I'll, I'll, I'll just, uh, this just to rip on our dear friend and listener of this podcast, our good buddy, uh, JR Rogers was on the, so that first hole you described, Joe, um, we're walking down that fairway and we were downwind on day two and we went back at T and we're downwind and we're just commenting and, and, him and I are both in the middle of the fairway. Uh, you know, wind really was, was moving that morning. And so we're, down there a ways, you know, not much more than a
Joe (54:25.608)
good.
Joe (54:37.148)
Yeah.
Joe (54:41.618)
You
Matt Considine (54:54.206)
a mid iron into the green. And I say something about, let's get it started with some big birds here. He goes, wait, this is a par five? And this is, played it the day before. And I go, yeah, yeah, I think it's par five. mean, they might, the club might play it as a four for certain things, but it's a five. And so he got a little cocky and he came up short on the left, so short left, front right pin, that little piece you'd said you moved up there.
Joe (55:17.368)
yeah.
Matt Considine (55:20.392)
He hit a little bumper run up there that had a little too much steam and got to the crest of that hill. You thought it might come back down and no, it just starts sliding the right, goes down. He played ping pong to start the day, walked off with a six. you know, it's just holes like that I love. love the, they keep us humble. You gotta think, you know, it's like, all right, I got a eight iron into a par five. It's green light city. No, it's not. Let's put this in the right spot and make sure we get out of here with a.
Joe (55:32.539)
You
Yeah.
Matt Considine (55:48.318)
four of five and not do what our guy did. But that was a nice opener at say, there. But the one that professors commenting on and I wanna ask you about is, were you involved on the 18th?
Joe (56:04.495)
Was I involved on the 18th hole? Well, I I did pretty much all the shaping on the property. So, so of course, and I don't know if you're talking, are you talking specifically at the green or the whole journey?
Matt Considine (56:05.534)
Yes.
Matt Considine (56:13.616)
Okay, of course, sorry.
Matt Considine (56:19.868)
Well, the, I'll say the whole journey. Cause if there's a hole that in 20, and I haven't played a ton of golf this year, but if there's a hole keeping me up at night, I only played the course twice and, I had good, decent rounds to start the year. Again, you heard my intro, my putting has been terrible, but this hole, I couldn't have played differently the two days. And I, screwed it up so differently both times.
Joe (56:21.842)
You
Joe (56:32.805)
Okay.
Joe (56:36.271)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Considine (56:49.278)
And it wasn't, it was like, I just can't figure out the right strategy for that hole, but I loved it, Joe. I got off with like, I think a double and a bogey both days from good, decent positions. And I still don't know the answer, which I think is a real compliment to that hole. I don't want that to come off as like, I'm, I'm degrading. I'm not at all. I think I literally sit here today.
Joe (57:01.326)
Okay.
Yeah.
Joe (57:10.821)
Yeah. No, no.
Yeah.
Matt Considine (57:15.58)
have thought about it a lot and I still don't know the strategy of the 18th, which is rare, because when I looked at it, even from the clubhouse and the tee, I would have not thought that's what I would have said. I would said, you got a par five finisher, that's cool, because hopefully it's risk or reward and you're round, which it is, but there's a lot going on there and I just want to get your thoughts on it.
Joe (57:35.865)
Well, first question is which tees did you play from? you quite forward? There's a blue marker in the tee where they kind of would like you to play it from so that you are tempted to go for it in two.
Matt Considine (57:52.882)
Yeah, we were tempted both days. So I think we played a little bit further back the second day with a different wind, but up a little bit probably more towards the white the first day.
Joe (57:54.788)
Okay.
Joe (57:59.791)
Okay.
Joe (58:05.951)
Okay, so you know, really the strategy obviously is from the green backwards and the shaping the green kind of with that back skinny part that kind of is pretty close to the pond. Well, every part of the green is close to the pond, but there's kind of a bigger fatter part up front. And if the pin's left, you know, you're if you go at the pin, you better be sure of what you're doing.
And there's a neat crown in the green over on that left that kind of can complicate the whole situation. The back part of the green that's kind of narrow and, you know, it's tucked in between a bunker and the pond, it has a little, you know, right to left tilt to it. So if you bail out right of the green and, you know, shorten right of the green where you're trying to hit a little pitch shot.
The green, you kind of have to go up over a little, it's a subtle ridge. It's not like a big four foot contour. It's a one and a half foot contour. If you have to go over that, it's really uncomfortable because you've got to hit it hard enough to get it over that. And then you have a pond, you know, off to the other side. If the pin was in the back skinny part, you're trying to pitch to...
skinny place that leans away from you and yeah so the strategy really is you know trying to make sure that you miss short enough if you're gonna miss the green with your second shot and you have to try to recover you almost want to be back and left far enough that you can hit a little 60 degree wedge or something hard enough to actually control your spin
if you get up tight to the green, which most people are trying to do, it increases in difficulty. So which, you know, is really fascinating to me with the better player because the better player almost has no restraint. They just there's and I would say from actually from a design tenant aspect, Broomsedge with all its bombacity with bunkers.
Matt Considine (01:00:04.552)
Yeah.
Joe (01:00:25.935)
there was a ton of design restraint exercised in a lot of the greens. We could have gone wild and crazy throughout, but most of the greens aren't really wild and crazy. They're beguiling, but they're not crazy. So, you know, if you walk yourself through all 18 greens, I mean, there's a handful of them that you would say are really big and bold and rambunctious, but not a majority of them by long shot.
Matt Considine (01:00:54.628)
I, I could that, that resonates because we're walking around. said multiple times, there's so many of the greens that just felt like they were here, you know, just laid upon the land extension of whatever landform was there. and then there are these situations like one in 18 greens that I got to witness. you know, I'm doing the Cardinal sin cause I'm sure a lot of our folks aspire to play at Broomstead. They're listening in and they can under I'm very.
Joe (01:01:07.78)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:01:23.378)
happy to hear how things have played out there, this type of architecture, this type of experience. I wanna see more of this in the US. And I think the only way that that happens is if we get a lot of people to see it. And so their welcoming club motto now being a welcoming private club, I just commend everybody involved. I think it's really great to see and I will personally do what I can to make sure the places like this are successful. Because it's just good for the game.
Joe (01:01:33.602)
Yeah.
Joe (01:01:37.645)
Yeah.
Joe (01:01:50.889)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:01:52.446)
Those that haven't played though probably don't really know this 18th hole I'm describing that lives rent-free in my nightmares What you said that the better player can't help themselves and I like I said over two days walked away with a bogey and a double and What also sits under my nails is the 15 16 17 18 handicaps I was playing with they played quite well that they made of net birdie and a par and
Joe (01:01:58.892)
Hehehehe
Matt Considine (01:02:20.734)
And so I think that's the beauty of it. But you know what came to mind watching Augusta a few weeks ago is that 11th green at Augusta, if you bail out, which everybody does with the water on the left, that land, that kicker, we've seen it almost ruin Roy's year last year of kicking it almost to the water. We've seen balls that do end up in the water. That's kind of the same principle I see with that second shot when you take it on. mean, if you are...
Joe (01:02:32.621)
Yeah.
Joe (01:02:47.213)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:02:49.138)
I'm a right to left ball player. If I hit that slope, I'm wet. so that's a beautiful consideration. And if you're just over the knob where I bailed out day one, that chip shot you described, it's such a skilled shot. And I love that. I love that there's no easy birdie there.
Joe (01:02:53.378)
Yeah.
Joe (01:03:05.163)
Yeah, it remind me who it was, remind me who it was at the Masters just recently that he had to punch or hit low under the trees on the right and he used, there's two mounds kind of short of 11 green and he used those to turn the ball and kick it onto the green. I can't remember who it was now. Unfortunately, memory is part of aging and, but, but it was.
You know, I was like, why don't more of the guys do that? But it's, it's that mentality of always on, always attack, always get as close as you can. And, know, I mean, a bit worry on Saturday, uh, you know, he just couldn't restrain himself. He, it's, it, you know, that's fun to think about and fun to hear you say that some of the higher handicappers.
Matt Considine (01:03:42.632)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:03:50.94)
Yeah.
Joe (01:04:03.031)
did okay. And that really is, that's a big part of my thought process during the day is I'm thinking about, you know, what are we doing and who are we impacting? If we put a bunker here, have we actually made it any more difficult for the elite player while increasing the difficulty for the not elite player? There was a hole at the bounty club.
in Nashville that I did with Robin Tad. And I was out there one day with one of the owners or, you know, owners representatives. And he was behind one of the greens and it was kind of ambiguous as to whether it was a bunker or not a bunker. And he said, Joe, is this going to be a bunker? And I said, well, I said, I don't know. I think we could go either way on that. He said, no, it's got to be a bunker. said, if this is grass, it's really uncomfortable for me.
And I just, you know, without reverence to who it was, I just said, sounds like we have our answer. It's going to be grass, you know, because those good players who are used to playing Pine Valley and Marion and all the, you know, they they'll they're not afraid to throw those names out in front of you for how smart they are. But then when it comes to design and you're trying to design something that maybe the high handicapper still has a chance, they can pull out a putter and roll it up that slope and do something with.
but you've made the better player uncomfortable. mean, those are, what a great opportunity to do good design work. So.
Matt Considine (01:05:37.906)
Yeah. Yeah. I actually felt that there were some bunkers at Broom Sedge that I wanted to be in on my second time around, but I didn't want to be behind. and meaning like there's a couple of the short fours coming to mind, even some of the threes where there's like a bailout area. but if I end up between, and it wasn't always that I had to carry a bunker, know, a better player is not necessarily worried about.
Joe (01:06:06.218)
Great. Great.
Matt Considine (01:06:07.59)
It was the slope on the other side of that bunker is putting me at a very, gotta go, I have to go high. can't run it around. I can't putt it. can't, and the short grass of that is so, as that firms up out there, that'll be even more of an element for sure. While I got you, I'm just thinking about it. The places that are, Aiken has this sand belt now and we're all talking about it as a destination. It's wonderful to have it uncovered.
Joe (01:06:23.309)
Yeah.
Joe (01:06:37.601)
Great.
Matt Considine (01:06:38.13)
to play firm and fast with these sand-based golf courses, like what's the hardest part of that?
Joe (01:06:45.58)
My smart aleck comment is color. We're so conditioned to think that everything should be green. So Rob Doom, the superintendent at Sand Valley up in Wisconsin, really good fescue grower. But when they did construction of all those golf courses, they actually took
excavators and they flipped all the organic material that was on top and got the sand that was underneath on top so that they were growing grass on pure sand. And Rob told me one time that he wished they hadn't done that because now with all the organics underneath he's kind of forced into having to water every day because of the sand. And you know if he could have kept some organics in the top
Matt Considine (01:07:39.773)
Interesting.
Joe (01:07:44.191)
he may have been able to water less. And I thought that's pretty profound. And we've been told that firm golf can only happen on sand. And partly because we've seen really good fescue on sand and fine fescue has its own feel, it's got its own thatch underneath it that's really firm compared to like bentgrass.
Bentgrass thatch is like this water absorbing sponge that's really just kind of nasty to play golf off of. Fine fescue is wonderful with thatch, but when you're growing other grasses on sand, you're having to water a lot. And it's just not always necessarily true, just like it's not necessarily true that on heavy soils that you can't have fur.
It's really in the hands of the people maintaining the course. You know, how they've conditioned that turf and what it wants for an environment to grow in. If you keep giving turf water and fertilizer and pesticides for, you know, 20 years, that's what it's conditioned to grow in. You start pulling back on any of that stuff and it kind of starts...
squawking at you. we do see wet, soft conditions often in a pursuit of some sort of perfection that just, I don't think it's good for the game, but the voice of public opinion tends to somehow win that battle. Part of that is actually pay scale. Some of these guys growing golf turf at some of the best golf courses are making so much money.
And don't begrudge them that. I just wish there was a club or an owner somewhere that said, I'll pay you more to do less. Because because if you can give me the best golf conditions, that's what I want. And I know it takes a lot of knowledge to do that. I want to pay you for your knowledge. I don't want to pay you for your effort. I wish that that would happen somewhere like a really high end place where they just kind of
Matt Considine (01:10:01.256)
Mm-hmm.
Joe (01:10:09.47)
I don't know if rustic is the right word or... but you know, something less polished, less perfect, more firm, more bouncy, know, little longer grass but healthier grass, not dependent. I don't know. You know, I don't think, you know, it's unfortunately that's not how humans are wired. You know, I came up with a pithy little statement of...
bunch of years ago that nobody gets paid more for doing less. And it's unfortunate, but it's true. know, irrigation designers is where I first thought about it because they want to come in and put as many heads on the property and put as many bells and whistles in place because their contracts were based off of them, you know, the complexity of the system. you know, architects can fall into that. Well, they're paying me.
Matt Considine (01:11:01.212)
Yeah.
Joe (01:11:05.29)
There's an expectation that I have to build X number of bunkers to make it, you know, appear as something when it might not be a better golf course for it. How do you, how do you get paid for your knowledge and restraint? I don't know. That's a complicated, it's a complicated thing.
Matt Considine (01:11:22.398)
Yeah. I, uh, I just went through this exercise. Uh, I think it's called the Parkinson's law and it was related to time, but I think it applies to what you're saying, Joe, where Parkinson's laws, um, you know, if, if you're given four hours for a meeting, you're going to fill four hours of a meeting. And so you won't be as selective on what's most important. What can we do? Can when you do.
Joe (01:11:35.081)
Hmm.
Joe (01:11:42.387)
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Considine (01:11:51.704)
create those restraints. You actually can do better work because it forces what you're saying. I can see that with resources as well, right? The water fills the glass, the, that, that if we're given it, we're, we'll spend it. And that's what I've been seeing the decade I've been in golf is, when times are good, we have more money and we spend more money. And then we have to keep up with that pace, whether it's inputs into the golf course or it's.
in in new pools and things of a country club. And I would love to hear that approach. And there are some that I know have said that to their superintendents. I am looking at you to spend less and we're gonna pay you more, because you're here for that skill. They're just not the most well-known places and they certainly don't get all the attention. I love it.
Joe (01:12:42.258)
Right, right. Yeah, and that's, but that's once again, that's kind of how the business works. You know, you look at resumes of whether it's pros or superintendents and the more elite the club that they've been at, the more they're perceived as a potential asset to another operation. And, you know, it may or may not be true.
Matt Considine (01:13:06.078)
So Broom Sedge is in the books. People are out playing it. They're loving it. You're gonna be on all the podcasts now along with Koprowski who I haven't connected with yet. I do wanna meet him as well. You're on a Candy Root and I stumbled on Candy Root a while back. I didn't know who was involved and the brothers that you mentioned, I've spoken to one of them and I'm also just thrilled again, Joe, to see
Joe (01:13:22.173)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:13:36.414)
a project, frankly, outside of, you hope what the Kizers have done for so many years, Mike senior and Mike junior, that there would be more to follow just so that golf has that stewardship or people kind of doing it what I would call the right way. to see world-class architecture in this same sand belt, fairly close to Charlotte, where I know there's a ton of golfers and
Joe (01:13:43.069)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:14:05.246)
Golf nerds like me will be making the pilgrimage to these places. But to see Candy Root doing it and doing it publicly accessible, what a win and you're involved there. Curious because it's a lot of the same team. What did you learn at Broom Sedge that you're going to be taken to Candy Root or you're already taken to Candy Root?
Joe (01:14:11.847)
Yeah.
Joe (01:14:22.672)
Yeah. Well, I mean, the very first lesson on a construction level was we did a lot less disruption to the property early on. Broomsteadge, when I got there, there was already kind of a wheel in motion that the top foot had to be all cleared because it was an old forestry operation. There was all this woody material in the dirt that shapers weren't going to want to deal with, et cetera, et cetera.
So we kind of went down this path and moving a lot of material off the top. And so we had kind of the whole site exposed at once. Kind of a blessing in disguise at Candy Root was the stormwater erosion permit restricted us to only 20 acres of disturbance at any given time. And then we had to re-stabilize with hydro seating and just it was a
kind of a pain, and at the same time, not really that big of a pain, and it made the a lot more friendly in terms of holding everything in place when it did rain and whatnot. And we just, chose, Koprowski and I chose to do a lot less to put the golf course in place. Not that we moved a ton at Broomsedge, but we moved more just because it was a
pretty difficult site as well. But we've hardly had to move any dirt so far at Candy Root. mean, we're just shaping in place essentially. There's one green that we had to shove some dirt up to build and the rest of them are just kind of been shaped in place. The number of bunkers is greatly reduced. Different style of bunker, which, you know, we're marching right along. got about half the bunkers are shaped. All the greens are
are done except for one, I could go in today and do an edit, but you know, we're, we're getting to that point where, know, we have water in the pipes now. So you're going to start, you know, getting some sod on the ground. but it's been a, been a fun project. It's given me actually a little more time to be out of the dozer, spending more time, you know, traversing the property and just really, looking at things with Mike.
Joe (01:16:50.0)
from a lot of different perspectives and just spending more time really just making sure that we're liking what we're doing.
Matt Considine (01:17:00.894)
I was gonna say, it actually sounds like a Shaper's nightmare. You can't get in there and show off at all, Joe. It's like.
Joe (01:17:05.939)
That was my early joke because when the first hole we cleared was the 18th fairway. After I gave it a quick sweep with the bulldozer just to get the remaining debris off it, the contours, the little small stuff left in the ground was so good, I was like, that's it, we're done. There's nothing to do here. Nothing we can do is going to make this better for golf.
So, you know, if a young shaper was in here really wanting to show his talents, he would have been frustrated. but for me, it was great. I was like, perfect. I love this. can, you know, I can kind of make quick work out of this and we can go look and spend our time, you know, making decisions elsewhere versus, you know, grinding at every fairway, trying to make grades work or strategies work or whatever. That's one thing Mike has done.
really a neat job at Candy Root is these fairways that kind of have native, know, jutting in at different places, having this kind of a meandering fairway versus kind of these long straight shots that you're trying to break up with bunkers or anything. We're letting a lot more of the native vegetation that's undisturbed do the work for us. So we're, know, and part of that is that mentality of, you know, it's public versus private.
If people come in, they only get the opportunity to play it once, what are we presenting them? Is it such a complicated puzzle that you have to play it 10 times before you really can play it? And there's always going to be some mystery in every golf course. It doesn't matter how simple it is or how complicated it is, but to try to make something that's really...
hard to know where you're supposed to hit it or whatever on a single play or a public operation that might not be the right thing.
Matt Considine (01:19:07.986)
I was going to say it almost feels like it's a happy marriage of publicly accessible golf with the minimalist approach or I know that's a maybe a trendy word. It's just that the land as it was because unless the land is vicious and very uninviting, like, you know, I remember talking to Rob in Tad about land man and just is, you know, you're basically
Joe (01:19:24.335)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Joe (01:19:37.828)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:19:38.098)
Nordic Explorer, if you would've played the course prior to the dirt, had to move so that it was playable. I'm sure those are cases, but just in the terms of the sand belt down there, it seems like that's a good fit where you, you probably, you know, that to create that puzzle for the members of Brim's Edge that they go around and around and around again, you want to add that those layers. That's, think the challenge part of my, brief on them was, was very clearly, I gotta go.
Joe (01:19:40.55)
Yeah
Matt Considine (01:20:05.512)
play that whole again, I gotta try it differently. Whereas I totally agree with you. I think those courses for the destination, you might play it once every five years, it's hard to, well, next five year trip, I'm gonna do it differently, just hits differently.
Joe (01:20:06.468)
Hahaha
Joe (01:20:21.754)
Yeah, mean, I don't know how many people's memory is that, you know, acute. isn't. You know, it'd be, I could go back one year later and it'd be a whole new experience.
Matt Considine (01:20:29.974)
The professor's probably the only one I know, I'm not. But on the topic of accessibility, because I heard you say something that I really enjoyed on the Derek Duncan podcast, Feed the Ball, around accessibility. I wish I would have wrote it down. I was in the car, so I didn't. But Mike, what pops in your head just with, you were the co-owner and operator of a public golf course, you've worked for...
Joe (01:20:55.609)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:20:59.004)
public private courses, you see the impact it has on people and society and the industry and where this whole American golf goes from here. Give me just some of your thoughts on it, public versus private and what do you think it would be the best access model look like for the US?
Joe (01:21:08.559)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joe (01:21:28.228)
Well, so one of the complications in that discussion right now is just cost to build new golf, right? So, you know, the cost to buy land, the cost to put irrigation in the ground, the cost of, you know, talent to build stuff, it's expensive. When I think back to 2004, when we did the mines, you know,
I think the total budget of that project was something like 2.1 million. Now you can't buy the parts for an irrigation system for that. Things have gone crazy.
What I wish would be, I mean, if I could have, if I was granted a wish about golf and it served as many people as possible, it would be to have some group of very wealthy people who had a passion for the benefits of the game of golf, you know, not just health, not just the sport, societally.
I mean, there's so many good things about the game of golf. you know, us that are in the game, we're continuing to benefit from it, even if we're working in it. But even just when being young and playing golf, were, know, it's just such a healthy sport. And if there was a group of investors that were burdened with the idea of providing
good public golf and maybe it doesn't even have to be like the 18 hole, you know, four to five hour round kind of thing that we all think is our, you know, that's our Shangri-La for, you know, Sam Bell, you know, really great golf. What if it's just really great nine hole par threes or really great nine hole?
Joe (01:23:41.059)
or something but just provide the general public with opportunity to to go play golf for say 20 bucks a person so a family of four could go play without breaking the bank that's kind of one of my heartaches after we sold our golf course you know our family you know our kids we have three kids and the boys played golf all the time I mean just
every day. you know, nobody, you know, most people can't afford to go provide that on many levels. You know, private clubs are expensive. There's waiting lists. There's all the, all that stuff now. Even marginal public courses are 60 to $80 around probably if you kind of averaged it out nationwide, you know,
places are still, there's still some affordable golf out there, but it's hard to find. And the mom and pops kind of keep getting swallowed up with development and you know, it's unfortunate. I think in sixties and seventies, there were so many places to go play golf because you know, land wasn't in demand like it is now. So if I had that one wish granted though, it would be that somebody, some organization would develop, I don't know.
Would it be a foundation? I don't even know what it would take to build and fund a bunch of good public accessible, know, interesting design stuff in whether it's par threes, nine holders, 18 holders, 12 holders. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it'd be awesome if there was people burdened with that that would say, I don't care what it costs to build it, but I'm going to provide it.
to the general public for this much money. And I know there's municipalities that, you know, there's some good Muni golf out there. You know, there's always the debate whether taxpayer money is, you know, is that an unfair advantage to those places versus private? Well, of course it is, you know. But, you know, should it be the burden of municipalities to go develop great golf? I don't think so. That's not their calling. I mean...
Joe (01:26:06.146)
So, I don't know, there's just a lot.
Matt Considine (01:26:06.972)
Yeah, it's a wonderful, it's a moonshot in a way based on all the barriers in the way from something like that, Joe. It resonates deeply with me. I I not only explored, know, concepts and organizations like National Links Trust, and I've spent, you know, majority of my last 10 years studying overseas and just understanding why things are the way they are.
Joe (01:26:29.664)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:26:37.022)
decisions were made hundreds of years ago that, really keep things upheld and, you know, our ship has sailed. So how do we, how do we do it here? And I have many, many ideas on that, but one thing, just to further your point was, you know, new club golf society was really started out of that premise. And, and as we got down into that road and the really compelling golf, the life force stuff that you're talking about, you know, it really services,
Joe (01:26:40.48)
Mm.
Matt Considine (01:27:06.43)
audience, our members of New Club play, you know, great golf courses with some access. We had to create the access. We didn't build the golf courses. It was thrown off the hole. But, you know, it's still in that $80 to $300 price point. And, you know, the majority of guys I grew up with in Akron, Ohio, that I look at who still love the game, they're looking for the $40, $50, $60 round of golf and the places they're playing. It's just not
Joe (01:27:09.927)
Yeah, yeah
Joe (01:27:18.687)
Yeah. Yeah.
Joe (01:27:33.035)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:27:35.934)
what that gets you elsewhere overseas. And I would love to see that addressed. I truly would. And I think you're right. I think it would require an interesting financial structure with the land ownership and all the costs. Yeah.
Joe (01:27:38.505)
Yeah. Well, I...
Joe (01:27:52.449)
It'd be philanthropic for sure. mean, you know, the people looking for a return on investment wouldn't be part of the deal. It just can't. But, but I love what you guys are doing because it's a, it's a little different way of looking at it from what I just expressed. You know, I'm still thinking about the guy that walks up to the counter and hands his cash and goes and stands on the first tee gets paired up and goes and plays golf. You're your new club.
premise is a different way of trying to provide some of the things I'm talking about, but you're doing it differently. And, and I love that golf has a lot of out of the box thinkers that are implementing things. And you know, that's, you know, it can happen in the design end, you know, from a bulldozer, you can be out of the box and doing something that's everybody appreciates and is cool. Or it could be simply the
the access and the opportunity. you know, I have some of my grandkids, you know, they see grandpas having fun, know, doing fun work. And they're kind of acting like, I want to do that. It's like, dude, you're not going to get it handed to you. You got to go work for it. And honestly, I mean, it's hard lifestyle for
Matt Considine (01:29:13.534)
Better get the shovel out.
Joe (01:29:20.907)
people that aren't well grounded, you're traveling all over. And there's been times where it's like two weeks here, two weeks there, two weeks there, and I'm getting too old to where I don't wanna do too much of that anymore. But if you're young, unfortunately, that's just part of the deal. You live a very nomadic lifestyle. Yeah, back to trying to play golf. If you're trying to play golf on the road, you work in golf all week long and then you wanna go play golf somewhere on the weekend.
It's just, it's harder now than ever to go find somewhere to play golf.
Matt Considine (01:29:57.31)
True, yeah.
Joe (01:29:58.336)
I'm lucky. live the house I'm in for the candy project is the same house I lived in for brooms edge. So I'm, you know, I'm 15, 20 minutes from brooms edge. So if I have a hankering to go do some chipping and putting, which is really about all I can do anymore. I go down there and, and, you know, go down and use the place. And it's what a great playground to go hang out. But that's a, that's a luxury of this place, you know? So.
Matt Considine (01:30:27.09)
Yeah. Yeah. And more places like that in our communities. And I don't, I'm not naive to think golf is this elixir for all things. It's not, but you just look at the communities that have that and you look at other things that stem out of it, around it, kids and adults, you know, we're big kids. We need that. The amount of time we're stuck to our screens, the amount of time we're apart.
Joe (01:30:49.194)
Yeah.
Matt Considine (01:30:56.712)
from nature, apart from people. Golf for me is, and for so many people I know, it is the thing that forces that and gets us back to what's good for us versus all this stuff that's very clearly not. Joe, I could talk to you all day. This has really been fun. We'll have you back. What's next for you? You've had this career already and it seems like kind of a cool.
Joe (01:31:08.693)
Yeah.
Joe (01:31:15.584)
Well.
Matt Considine (01:31:26.598)
intertwining road. What's next? What are you excited about? You know, what's coming?
Joe (01:31:32.671)
Well, the future is never certain, obviously. There's always the hopes. I'm talking to a couple different people about potential first solo designs. We'll see if they come to fruition. I'm an opportunist, much more so than a goal setter. Guys like Doke and Gil and DeVries and all the big names, they set...
out on a course of being a golf course architect, you know, when they were young and that was their goal. I'm kind of, I wouldn't say stumbling into it, but if, you know, if the opportunity arises and somebody says, that guy, you know, he's got the right mentality for our project and we'd love to hire him. I'm going to be ready for it. And I've got a couple of different, you know, potential clients.
If they come to fruition, I'm going to be excited for it. If not, I'm going to continue to happily do what I'm doing with other people. But I don't know where that next other thing is. You know, this summer when we wrap up at Candy Root, I don't have anything scheduled immediately. I'm going to go home and, you know, do a little fishing with the grandkids and spend a little time at home, which is always great. But,
We'll see. mean, it's, yeah, it's, there's, there's, there will be something fun that comes up and it, you know, might not always be something big and, you know, splashed all over social media. You know, I did a couple projects last year. I've got a club in Northern Michigan that I've been consulting architect at for about 13 years at Harbor point. I go back every year, do some projects there. They're always going to be a special client. kind of gave me my first.
Matt Considine (01:32:58.802)
What?
Joe (01:33:23.934)
consulting architect gig and it's just a cool little club. It's not a big, long championship golf course, but it's quirky and in great shape. Clayton Novak, the superintendent, is one of my best friends and every year we just go back and it's almost like a vacation. it's stuff like that. I'll stay busy with previous clients and then hopefully some new ones. So we'll see.
Matt Considine (01:33:53.64)
Well, I'll put something fun on your calendar and let's play some golf, maybe some nine holes. I'm gonna come up north. I know you're still nomadic, but some mutual friends of ours, I'm looking to visit outside Grand Rapids this year. So maybe I can drag the professor with me. We can play nine, have a beer. Joe, this has been really a treat, I know that it is the nomadic life of shapers and architects and everything, but you said this word grounded.
Joe (01:34:04.382)
Come, come, listen, that'd be awesome. Yeah.
Joe (01:34:12.104)
That'd be awesome.
Matt Considine (01:34:23.91)
not as grounded, stuck in the same place, but grounded as in touch with what matters, fundamental principled approach to doing what you do. I picked up on that from years from our mutual friends, but also in this conversation, I really, really picked up on that. And I'm sure our listeners did too. Just wanna say thanks, man, for being with us. Thanks for making kick-ass golf out there in the world for us to play. Really a pleasure.
Joe (01:34:51.037)
But I think as long as there's other people as passionate about playing the game of golf as we are in creating it and talking about it, you know, we're in a good spot. you know, love that when people come and take tours of, you know, stuff under construction and I love it when they go play. Love it when there's questions about what we were thinking when they can't figure out the 18th hole. I was hoping you'd ask.
Matt Considine (01:35:19.642)
All right. I was looking to like, yeah, it feels like I was on a vendetta there to blame somebody for my poor finish. Give me Kuprowski next time. I'll go take him down next. was like, listen, man, just tell me what you were thinking. What's the code? Tell me the code. No, Joe, thanks again. Enjoy the rest of your week and everybody, thanks for listening to the show.
Joe (01:35:20.861)
I was hoping he'd ask about 17, but we'll talk about that over beer.
No, no, no, I love it. No, that's great.
Ha
Yeah.
Joe (01:35:42.586)
Matt, thank you.
Matt Considine (01:35:45.222)
this, this would just be a couple of chuckle heads and professor and I've learned for you guys. So, shoot us a note. If you guys got any ideas or thoughts or questions at the backdrop at newclub.golf. We're also all over social now. the backdrop is typically our handle, I think on Instagram, Facebook, those, but it's the backdrop golf on Twitter and maybe tick tock. and, thanks as always to our friends at Titleist for providing their support to the show. Titleist is the number one ball in golf.
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