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People Just Do Something series 2 episode 3, with Jake Hanrahan – transcript
Alex Turner
Hi. This is Alex Turner here. Just a quick update on this latest episode of People Just Do Something, which discusses Syria and Jake Hanrahan's history of reporting there. We recorded on 6 December 2024 as forces opposed to then President Bashar Al Assad were advancing through the country, with the outcome still unclear at that time. Two days later, on the 8 December, the regime was toppled, with Assad fleeing Damascus to seek asylum in Russia. Pass you over to pre and Isaac now, I hope you enjoy the episode.
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INTRO
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 0:45
All right, everyone, I'm very hungover because we've been Christmas partying. Well, they haven't been. Does the Cable have a Christmas party.
Priyanka Raval 0:51
I think we do. I think it's coming up. Might not be as raucous as yours was.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 0:57
Freelancers don't get invited. I see how it is. I thought I'd talk about because I haven't a chance to talk about it, it's not been appropriate. But it seems like this episode seems like a good one. So I was at a party with George in the gap between the seasons. George told you about his painting his boat?
Priyanka Raval 1:12
Oh, when he almost fumigated himself on the fumes?
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 1:15
Knocked himself out, if I recall, is that right? George? A man, a man at a dock, told him that this paint would be great. And George bought George just did something. George bought some paint, which he filled his houseboat with. Well, his lovely girlfriend was away, nearly knocked himself unconscious with the toxic fumes. And so when I met him, he was currently having to do couch surfing because he'd made his boat unlivable.
Priyanka Raval 1:47
I remember he came into the office and he looked well, peaky. I hope this is satisfying the audience demand for more George content.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 1:57
More George. You know he's here. He sounds like a guiding hand, a voice of wisdom. But you should know that when he's not at work, he's huffing toxic paint while failing to do his DIY duties. So, you know, you, you should, you two listeners, should be willing to put yourself at risk and paint boats in you know…
Priyanka Raval 2:18
Apparently, it's apparently very good paint. It's not a call to action, Isaac!
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 2:22
Go back, get yourself some toxic paint, and paint somewhere you love and you too could host the greatest podcast in Bristol. We're gonna get sued…
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INTERVIEW
Priyanka Raval 3:05
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of People Just Do Something from the Bristol Cable, a podcast about people on the front line of political movements where we expand the definition of what an activist is. You're joined by me, Priyanka, and my lovely co host Isaac Kneebone Hopkins, reminder that episodes will come out every other week on Friday for Cable early access and Monday general release on podcast players. We are halfway through season two, which will be six episodes long in total. And if you love it, then just do something about it and subscribe to People Just Do Something on your podcast apps today, and while you're at it, sign up to the Cable at the Bristol cable dot org forward slash, join and let us know if it was the podcast that made you want to sign up.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 3:48
Today, we will be talking to Jake Hanrahan from Popular Front. Jake is a conflict journalist. Popular Front is a grassroots media organisation funded by its listeners, and what it specializes in is getting into the nitty gritty of conflicts around the world, and like really going there, seeing what's happening, speaking to the people involved, as well as the citizens living through it. Obviously, at the moment, that's a particularly important sort of aspect of work as we have, you know, war on the European continent, as well as increasing tensions across the Middle East. So yeah, we'll be talking to Jake about how you kind of got into that work, what that work kind of entails, and what if anything you can learn from this sort of reporting and take away for yourself. I think it's a very interesting chat. I think you're really going to enjoy it.
Priyanka Raval 4:37
Let's get into the interview with Jake Hanrahan.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 4:45
All right, so yeah, we are joined by Jake Hanrahan. Jake is a journalist and founder of Popular Front he's also working on a new project called Away Days, which I'm sure we'll probably talk about throughout this. Like, yeah, I guess. So usually we. Get people on to talk about being an activist, but our sort of understanding of that is sort of very broad. I mean, we thought sort of talking to Jake as someone who kind of gets to those stories which otherwise aren't going to be reported, and sort of tells stories that need to be told. We found sort of really interesting, kind of, you know, in line about what the Cable are trying to do. So hello, Jake. It's very good to have you. How's things?
Jake Hanrahan 5:19
Yeah, good. Thanks, mate. I like what you guys are doing as well. I had a few friends that I think have passed through the Bristol Cable, and I've always had a look. It looks pretty cool. I will say that I'm definitely not an activist.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 5:31
Just to be clear, our use of it is broad to the point of basically un-understandable – it means we can book who we want, which doesn't help. So we were basically going to start with sort of, you know, how, how did you get here? I suppose you know what, what got you sort of interested in sort of reporting that you do? How did you sort of get started doing this sort of reporting?
Jake Hanrahan 5:49
I mean, I always wanted to do, I think, something where you can kind of go out and kind of go into different situations that you wouldn't normally be in, that sort of thing. And I think for me, I never thought it would be reporting, because my concept of what a reporter was when I was young especially, was just like, couldn't be me, you know, like, I didn't, didn't grow up in a kind of environment where that would seem like a normal thing to do. But then as I got older, I kind of started reading books by reporters, and I was like, Oh, okay. And I looked this guy up. I was like, oh, okay, he does this, he does this, she does this, whatever. And I was like, You know what? Maybe I can have a go. And I guess, like, I just built it up. It's 10, 11, years I've been doing this. So it took a while. You know, I started off as a print journalist. I definitely think could be… writing was the… if I've got any talents, I think maybe writing, you know, documentaries, I love doing. I've got some eye for it, but think writing was my main thing, and I realized very quickly that it wasn't giving me enough, like I wanted more than writing. And also, you can't make enough money off of writing, you know, like, I was absolutely not going to just do something normal. I couldn't, you know, there's nothing wrong with that, and I think it's very noble for people that can. But for me, I was like, I cannot do this. I'm just a work shy little prat. And like any job I had, you know, like I was like, labouring. I was working in a warehouse in a factory call centre, and I was like, I absolutely must get away from this. And just for me, I had to be somewhere else.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 7:16
The Tyranny of a nine to five is too much. I'd rather be shot at!?
Jake Hanrahan 7:22
I wouldn't say tyranny, like, but for me it was, but I don't think I mean the end of the day, like, these people make the world go around. I don't ever mean to be like, disrespectful. I think what I do is, in no way remotely as important as what most kind of day to day people do. You know, I always say journalists think they're way too important. You know, the bin man is way more important than anything I will ever do in my life, literally. So I think that's really, really good to remember. But at the same time I was just, look for me, I need more, and that's it, you know? And I kind of started getting into it. And then I just realized, like, wow, I really like this. And I feel like, maybe naively at first, maybe thought like, Oh, you're kind of making a bit of a difference here. And then very quickly realized that that's not true. And then just kind of was like, Well, for me, it's enough to just be like, Hey, this is going on. You might not know about it. Here's how I see it and contextualize it, and bull miss out there. And that's kind of enough for me.
Priyanka Raval 8:10
What was your first gig in journalism? How'd you start out?
Jake Hanrahan 8:13
I was freelancing. I was doing all these, like normal jobs and that. And just like every time I get home from work, just just writing pitches and stuff like this. And, you know, I remember pitching, I think it was over 100 pitches I sent to the Guardian before they even said no. But I was super determined, you know, I was like, what, like, early 20s, like, and I was like, absolutely, you know, I've got no qualifications, nothing. I certainly wasn't going to go back to school or anything like that. So I was like, I have to do this myself. And I could, you know, like, no, not sound cocky, but I just was so driven. I was, I think I can do it myself. Like, I don't really think I was like, I was like, hell, do you need to go to uni for this? For no offense to anyone at uni, like, but it for me, I was, I don't need to do that. So I taught myself. And yeah, I was just getting, like, decent bits of, like, written work. And then it got to a point where it kind of got a little bit of a buzz around my name, I guess. And then I kind of got a little gig doing, like, kind of interning and copy editing at this, like, online magazine that's now defunct, and I realized I was like, No, even this feels like work, you know? And I don't like work now, but I don't want it to feel like the old work I was doing, you know. I want it to be work you believe in. Yeah, yeah. It's like, unless I love it, I hate it. There's no middle ground for me, unfortunately.
Priyanka Raval 9:22
And you didn't study journalism, right?
Jake Hanrahan 9:25
No, I didn't study anything. I left school at 16 got, I think, got like a C in English and like a C in RE so, you know, I was an idiot. I didn't care about school. I went to a really, really really rubbish school as well. So basically, if you didn't, like, kind of excel in the first year or two, you were just, like, forgotten. But, you know, I had lots of friends there that were from like, you know, exactly the same kind of spot as me, and they did well, it was a me problem. But for me, it didn't work.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 9:58
you're not trying to, like, catch your English teacher, like, I'm a fucking writer now?
Jake Hanrahan 10:02
I actually saw an old DT teacher. I remember he said to me, it was like they took me aside, me and my friend. He's like, I just want you to know, like, you two are never gonna achieve anything. And I was like, All right, cool. I was like, I was like, pretty, like, 14. I was like, All right, thanks for that. I mean, at the time, yeah, I mean, I remember we were, we were using chisels, and we were like, using them, like swords to make them spark. So at the time, I was like, Yeah ok. I guess I saw him, and I was gonna go to him. And I was like, Nah, you don't even exist. It's fine.
Priyanka Raval 10:36
Yeah, I hear you. I didn't study journalism either, and talked myself into a lot of the first jobs I had. And I think the passion is like the motivation for the story, so what kind of stories were you interested in writing about, or what grabs your attention?
Jake Hanrahan 10:52
For me, it was always basically what I do now, you know, like it never really changed, like war and conflict, kind of extremist situations, and, like, underground subcultures, counter cultures, that kind of thing, which is more what I'm doing with Away Days now, but for me, like the war and conflict was, it's the sort of thing where I really wanted, I'll be honest, part of it was personal. Am I that guy? Can I do that? Like, do I have the balls to do it? Do I have, like, the mind to do it, you know, like, can I actually go and do it and, like, contextualize whatever it is and do the work, rather than, like, I don't know, just be scared or freak out, which was completely normal, you know, I know had a friend when I worked at Vice and she went to do war report, and she's like, Nope, never again. She never did again. I thought, yeah, that's a really wise decision. You know, it's fair. But for me, soon as I was out there, like, proper experience of it. I was about 24 I think, and I was like, Yeah, this is me. I can do this, you know. And I felt comfortable doing it. And then I just learned on the job, basically. And then, you know, Vice was great. I worked at Vice, like, Vice News, and it was great. At the time, it was amazing. I was there for like, four or five years, I think, like the glory years.
Priyanka Raval 12:01
Quite like, a formative experience, yeah? Because I think you can see Vice influences in Popular Front, right?
Jake Hanrahan 12:07
Definitely, definitely. And I think that's great. And I think they, they had a real, like, special formula, you know, and people always want to be like, Oh, well, they fell apart. They did this. Then, don't get me wrong, I have my own personal beefs with them. But, like, it was incredible, you know.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 12:20
I remember, was it hands off? Was it, they let you kind of get stuck in and do it the way you thought they should be done?
Jake Hanrahan 12:25
Yeah, it was the only place in Britain where you could go in and just get places off of merit. Whereas, I mean, I'm sure you're aware, but like, the journalism industry is, in my opinion, one of the most grotesque things I've ever seen in my entire life, and it's deeply super elitist private school boys, very elitist, which, you know, I've got a lot of friends from, like, private schools and posh, I like them. They're cool, but they're not trying to be someone they're not. And they also can't ever deny that they get in places that normal people won't get to. So it's a really grotesque industry, and I kind of stand the industry, but I do love the kind of medium, if you know what I mean, and Vice news, we had this great boss, Kevin Sutcliffe, and he understood that, and he was very happy to let us, kind of, if you if you knew what you were doing and you weren't an absolute idiot, you could kind of do what you were doing. You know, I went from, I was brought on as, like a researcher, and within like two months, I was making documentaries, like as an on screen reporter and producer. So nowhere else at the time could you do that, you know, BBC, Channel Four. You'd have been making tea for six years before you even got in a meeting.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 13:28
I remember begging the BBC to let me read emails for free, yeah.
Jake Hanrahan 13:33
Honestly, I was like that vibe as well at the start. You know, I was so hungry I'd have done almost anything, but I was definitely not going to be mugged off, you know, from day one. And I think Vice really understood that. And if you had good ideas, they would let you flourish. Unfortunately, that all changed. You know, they got the HBO money. They started bringing in morons from America. And, you know, just focusing on like these, in my opinion, very unimportant, identity politics stories, while people were like, starving, dying, whatever, so that destroyed it, but at the same time, like people forget the foundation was incredible.
Priyanka Raval 14:10
You know, it's something that I feel about vice and maybe in general, is like, there feels like a bit of a fine line between doing really gripping out there, hard hitting journalism and maybe just being a bit sensationalist?
Jake Hanrahan 14:24
I mean, definitely there was some element to that. And there's definitely some element of it, probably in my work, to a degree, and I just kind of think, like so what, to be honest.
Priyanka Raval 14:32
I mean, how do you tread that line? That was gonna be my next question as well, right?
Jake Hanrahan 14:36
Yeah, everything is marketing. You know, it's like people are wondering why young people are not engaging with the news world. It looks like trash. It's boring. You talk down to people. You have people in front of the screen that are like different to 99% of the country. The younger generation are not interested. So what we do with Popular Front is, you know, we definitely kind of, if something is exciting, we present it as exciting. You know, it's a bizarre thing to do, to remove all of the energy from a riot, for example, in an edit that's insane, a riot is one of whether you like it or not, is one of the most exhilarating things you can see. And just because that is to the, you know, the whole not seen as a positive thing doesn't mean that you can't then present it in all its energy. You made it look like funI Well, it was kind of, you know.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 15:19
And people do things because they're fun, right?
Jake Hanrahan 15:24
Exactly. I mean, if you look at, like, activism in Britain, like, a lot of it is just trendy, you know, like Kurds getting slaughtered, no one cares. You know, it's not trendy enough, like they do care. But, you know what? I mean, it's, like, a lot of it is latched on to because it's trendy. People don't know, admit that, but it's, you know, it's clear…
Priyanka Raval 15:45
That's true of journalism as well, right? Like, there's trendy journalism and there's, like, deeply unsexy journalism, like, a lot of what we do at the Cable right? Like, we've got to cover local elections, as well as, you know, doing the kind of reporting we did this summer, which is going and talking to far right, people who were threatening to storm an immigration hotel.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 16:04
It would be much more fun if, like, the local mayor stormed the capital or something. You know, they can add a bit of, a bit of spice.
Jake Hanrahan 16:09
Well,not even that, though. Like, you can make local elections super interesting. Like, it's easy, like, just listen to normal people and don't, like, cast a judgment on them because they don't have the correct opinion that you want it, not you guys. I mean, like, just the way I see it presented, you know, like there are certain media outlets now that they're like, oh, let's, let's go and send this kind of Metropolitan guy to the most deprived area in England, and then act really shocked that they don't have the perfect eloquent opinion. It's disgusting, you know…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 16:35
When some obvious outsider who doesn't look or sound anything like them will know anything about them, right? And they act in a way that's a bit standoffish towards this.
Jake Hanrahan 16:42
Yeah, that's why people are not interested, because, you know, and you can make local… local politics is super interesting, and it should be the most engaging, because it's what people see. But it's done in a way where it's like, let's go and let's go and do a shift in their in their like the barrels. You know what? I mean, it's not right. You know, I know people where I live, that they probably say things that you know out of context. If you didn't know who they were, you'd be like, Oh, my God, that's terrible, but it's like, well, yeah, as a sound bite it is, but it doesn't mean necessarily what you want it to mean. You know, I think people are just after jumping on something so they can get, like, retweeted, and be like, I'm the journalist that got that sound bite. And I laughed at them. Like, okay, the country still fucked…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 17:22
Priy mentioned the kind of protest against the far right. I think we should talk about that in that because I think, like, like, part of Priy's reporting was, like, actually talking to some of the people who came out and were protesting the migrants. The one I went to, which was like the second counter protest, there was a group of, you know, the usual lefty sorts that you'd expect, but actually lots of people who would never come to anything. I you know, if I organized, I organized left wing events, and they would never think it was for them. But when it was like, we're going to defend our communities, we're going to wear our balaclavas, we're going to dress the way we want to dress, and we're going to defend ourselves, and the people who live around us like that meant something. They came and, yeah, I'm sure you could ask them questions. They might not say the perfect things all the time, but like, they were willing to put their bodies on the line to defend…
Jake Hanrahan 18:03
Yeah, we had it around my area, you know, luckily, my actual town, like, there was none of it. There wasn't, to be honest, it's like, we're pretty good here. Like, it's, it's quite like a everyone's just the whole like, race thing is not like a massive point where I live in the Midlands, but in Northampton, 1000s of people, just hundreds of people, I should say, just out on the street, normal people, they weren't part of Antifa. They weren't activists. They were like, This is wrong. And you know, those people probably, if you sat in a deep chat with them, you might not like them, you might not like some of their ideas, but on one thing, you can all agree this ain't right. And that should be enough. You know, you shouldn't have this enforced. It used to be you can tolerate something. You're not even allowed to tolerate something now, it's like, you must love it. And it's like, well, I don't, well, you're bad. It's like, it's just not real life. And I think a lot of journalists just are not living real life when it comes to that stuff.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 18:48
And a lack of trust that we can change anyone's mind. I suppose…
Jake Hanrahan 18:52
Working class, the mind can be changed. We are not stupid people. The idea of like the gammon, which I think is just a disgusting thing. We're not, like, bad people that need changing. Look at the way, like, my town for the last, like, I think, like, 10 years, all voted Tory, this one, it all voted Labour. You're telling me they were all racist for 10 years. No, it's just, you know, people vote on what is directed at them, you know. I think journalism just blows all that out of proportion, you know.
Priyanka Raval 19:17
Yeah, I really want to get into, like, the critique of of the media, and also maybe activism in general, because it does feel like the things are really linked. But I just want to talk a bit more about Popular Front.
Jake Hanrahan 19:28
Yeah, sorry, I'm going off on one.
Priyanka Raval 19:30
So are me and Isaac. We're excited all over the place, but Popular Front. What was the idea behind it? For people who are listening, who don't know it, what are the sort of things that you covered. What's the process of going about covering those kind of stories? And then I want to talk about Away Days…
Jake Hanrahan 19:46
Basically I just found, like, the industry is just, like, really grotesque, like, very elitist. And then I got to a point where I was like, I'm gonna quit, or I'm gonna try this one thing. So I had the idea, and I realized, like most the people we go and talk to on the front or any war or conflict alright, they're not like, super rich, privately educated, strange sounding people that report on it. So then why are those the main people that get to report on it? And I was like, well, let's show the perspective of those people, for better or worse, as it is, as opposed like, from afar. And don't get me wrong, I don't think like we're so revolutionary. We only did it, but we we just did it in a way that's like a bit of flair to it. We made it accessible, and we kind of treated it like a subculture, almost, rather than just like a project. You know, it was like, it was this whole thing where I wanted people to feel involved no matter where they're from. You know, like it was like, I want to bring all these misfits in and on our team, we have just people from all different backgrounds, all different places. And for me, it really made… there was something really important happen where, like, this young girl messaged me like, she was like, just getting into, like, journalism. She's like, 20 or something. And she was like, I wanted to do it forever, but I just felt I never could. And then I saw Popular Front. She was, like, some really cool, like Vampire goth or something. I love all, like, people doing their own thing I think it's brilliant. And she's like, I'm not the sort of person that you would thought could do this. And then she got into it. And turns out she's, like, this amazing, like OSINT researcher, and she's doing great work. And that for me, really, like, gave me a gave me a boost. I was like, Yeah, this is this one I want to show everybody, like, we don't need them. You don't need to cow and, like, try and, like, hold onto the leg of, like, the elitist, like, we just need to say, Fuck them and just do our own thing, you know. And it's definitely worked. There's loads of like, there's loads of clones, but then there's also other, like, really decent places that I think have started off the back of what we're doing, which I'm really proud of.
Priyanka Raval 21:44
Where did you get, like, the money? Was it only you, did you put a team together? Like, what were the actual mechanics in those early days of getting set up? And was it mainly, like, your idea, did you have the idea of Popular Front and, like, the way it was gonna run? Or did it evolve as it went along?
Jake Hanrahan 21:59
Yeah, so where do we get the money? Is still a question I'm asking myself. It's the ultimate struggle, but we do a lot better than we did when we started. But basically it was just me. Man, I was, like, in my little flat in the Midlands. Man, and, like, I didn't even have a mic. Man, I was broke. Man, I was like, you know, just kind of coasting along doing little freelance things after I left Vice I thought fuck it, man, like, I'm gonna try this podcast idea. And, like, I knew all these, like, really nerdy kind of people through Twitter and places like this that were doing really cool work, but it was getting, like, stolen by journalists often. Hugo Carmen is a good example. He was doing like this insane, like, autist level research into car bombs in Syria. And it was just incredible. And through that, I realized, actually, we don't need things watered down. We need it way more detail. Because in the detail you find the real, it actually becomes simple. Because when you understand the detail, you understand, oh, okay, that's why that happened, instead of this broad like, let's make it easy, because people are not stupid. You know, that's the press's biggest kind of misconception, that their listeners or viewers or whatever, are stupid. No, some are, but, you know, that's whatever. But, yeah, so I was like, you know, I'm just, I just started hitting all these lads up and women as well. I'm just like, hey, like, let's, I'm doing this podcast. It's about war, but it's, you know, like, I think we did like, a two hour podcast about the car bombs in Syria. We did a three hour podcast about the Assyrian forces in Syria, which no one had known about, the Chaldeans, the the Syriacs, and all these other people, you know, just things you won't see in the news. We did a thing about, like, Ukrainian munitions, and like makeshift munitions that they'd made themselves. This is before the aid came in, you know. And I realized people really like that. And I was like, yeah, that's like, a super interesting part of it. You just, it's not really, you can't really do in a documentary form, but you can kind of incorporate that, that kind of ethos into it. And it grew and grew from there, like, took off really fast, actually, I think people really wanted it sort of thing.
Priyanka Raval 23:49
So Twitter was really instrumental then in, like, building a network with a lot of different kinds?
Jake Hanrahan 23:53
Yeah, I would say at the time it was definitely, yeah, but it was more like there was this kind of… back then it was, I kind of call it conflict Twitter, like this kind of circle of people, now we're all, like, falling out with each other and like, this is the way things are now, but in life, certainly, a lot of them hate me now. I think just because I don't agree what they agree with, I'm an abrasive person. I get it. It's whatever. I don't really blame them. Like, yeah, I'd be annoyed at me too.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 24:18
But I can't believe a bunch of people with obsessive interests could fall out with each other!
Jake Hanrahan 24:23
But even then, there are a lot of us. We don't agree, but we still get on because, you know, yeah, fine, but yeah, it's just, like, off the back of that. There was this whole sphere, yeah, I just kind of tapped into that and, like, put it out there. And then, honestly, as like, as it's gone on, it's almost become, like, that element, the nerdy side of it. We do still do that, but, like, when we do people, oh, it's like, old school Popular Front because we kind of had to step kind of had to step away from it a little bit because there's only so much you can do. And then people, I realized, a lot of young people were saying, Oh, we come to you for our news. And I was like, man, I don't, we're not doing news. But then I realized, like, well, maybe we can try and… not news, because you need, like, billions to keep up to date. But yeah, we do like the news element. But we'd kind of in a detail to make it more understandable. We've had a little bit of a break almost this year with the docs, because it just… the censorship issues on on YouTube and the price of flights and this other project I'm doing. But like, we're coming back in a big way, I feel like.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 25:19
So the next project is away days, right? One of the things I thought was interesting was, like, the kind of the frames you gave of, like, kitchen sink journalism, yeah, and like, it's kind of interesting. I've heard you before sort of talk about, like, you know, this kind of, I mean, this wanky way that some people can talk, but actually, like, talking about kitchen sink journalism is something that could be done in a wanky but I actually thought you made it some very kind of work to, like, talk about that and what your approach to doing this is going to be. yeah. I
Jake Hanrahan 25:45
Yeah. I mean, I think it can sound wanky, because people are so terrified of coming up with anything that they might be accused of being cringe over… like someone says, oh, Jake, that was really cringe. I'm like, Alright, yeah, that's fine. Why? Does that matter? You said something. Cringy, okay. Like, I don't like, why does it matter?
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 26:04
Like, do you know our interests, right? Like, these are the things that we're drawing on. We shouldn't hide them.
Jake Hanrahan 26:09
Yeah, it's like, I never understood the concept of, like, a guilty pleasure. Like, why would you ever be guilty about something you like, you know, that's cool or whatever. But no, I think for us, like, kitchen sink journalism, I mean, it never started off as a wanky concept. It was a working class thing. It was a way for the masses to… basically back in the day. I mean, my dates have scrambled, but back in the day, like, basically when everything was black and white, let's just say that, no color TV. You know, all of these plays and stuff that you would see would be like, Oh, happy families and everything's great. And then there was this kind of movement Kitchen Sink realism. It was called, where people in Britain were like, Nah, actually, like, life is really gritty and very difficult. So they started making plays about the reality of their situations. And they turned like, instead of entertainment being light relief, they turned it into, actually, this is real, and you're gonna like, see it. And there was no real mission. Of like, you must learn. You must you know, this is activism. It was nothing like that. It was just like, hey, here's a different perspective. This is what it is. And I love that. And I got really read a lot into it for a long time. And I was like, wow. Like, you can use this concept with journalism and for Away Days, which is like this, my new series I'm doing with my friend and filmmaker Johnny Pickup. It's like fully reporting on the underground, but kind of with no airs and graces. I find that a lot of reporters, when they report on like underground stuff, they have to find a reason why it's happening to stomach it. For example, one of our episodes is about underground, no rules, fighting, which is, you know, bare knuckle, kicking, eye, gouge biting, everything is legal. You can do whatever you want. It's fought on concrete, underground. There's no no rules. There's no rules, very, Fight Club, right? Literally, like, real fight not quite so Brad Pitt, no. But even more extreme than Fight Club, you know, a guy's that is a bit off, you know, so, but, but it's this thing of like, I was talking to another reporter once about it, andhe was like, you know, you really got to look into the psychology and what happened in their child, and I was like, see, that's what you have to do to stomach it, because you don't get it. But these people, often, they just like it because it's fun, you know. And for them, they have something in them, and that's what they want to do. And why does that matter? They do it privately. They're not hustling anyone else. It's up to them, and everyone knows what they are into – these are serious people doing serious stuff, and they want to do it. And I'm kind of like, Yeah, I'm not there to say, like, why? Or, I mean, to some degree, yeah, because the viewer might not understand. But I'm not really, like, there to pick it apart, as I am to just say, Hey, this is happening. These are the people behind it. We got the access to it. Here's what it looks like. And off you go, you know. And like, I keep saying this, but I'm like, I'm not your nan. I'm not going to make you feel better about something. I just want you just want you to see it, you know? And obviously, we put it into context, and there's definitely an element of like in the modern world, you're not allowed to be this aggressive until you're called upon. You know, the say we got invaded. These people that are thugs and hooligans will become heroes overnight, because they'll be the people that go and basically save all the podcast leftists.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 29:03
So no, they're not going to save us. We'll be first against the wall.
Jake Hanrahan 29:06
Yeah, me as well for being a journalist, but like, but you know what I mean? It's like there is a place for these people, and they're always has it. There's been more a place in society for these people historically than there hasn't been. It's only a very short space of time in history where there's not a place for people that want to do this stuff. So they created their own space. They're outside of society, you know. But they're not bad people. We just spent like we've been hanging out with one of the best fighters, a British guy and his family. It was called English Wilf. Him and his wife, his wife's a bare knuckle boxer. They got a beautiful son, really good parents, really honest, nice, some of the most straightforward people I've met, you know, and they're great, and they like to do this fighting. And outside of that, they're very normal, functioning people, pay their taxes, work hard, good jobs, you know. And it's like, these are not twisted, messed up people. These are, you know, I think it's more twisted to be like condemning them and then getting your rocks off watching like true crime on Netflix every night. You know. Which I like true, but I'm also not, like, kind of shy, not moralizing. And I guess what it is we're trying to show it like that. We're trying to show that like this is just what it is.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 30:10
To some extent is it about trusting that your audience are not like that. They can watch this and they can be trusted to, you know, understand this in context, see what this might mean. You know, no, it's not necessarily for them. Or like, yeah…
Jake Hanrahan 30:21
I don't really care. I don't need to trust them. They need to trust us that we're presenting it in a way, but like, it doesn't… I want people to be disgraced or be dismayed or be happy or be excited. I want it all. I don't just want to make things that make people Oh, yeah, that's great. I want them to go, Oh my God. I cannot believe it, you know, I think it's good. You gotta ruffle people. You know, real life is not just, you know, you people are desperate to latch onto things now, you know, like I saw, even with this assassination in Manhattan, of this, you know, what is the healthcare CEO, the guy that was shot is, in my opinion, like, you know, borderline evil, but that's beyond the point, you know, like someone immediately messaged me, and was like, are we for this or against it? And I was like, hell. Like, is that the way you see the world? Like, it's just, it's just kind of juvenile. So I really want to step away from that, but with the way those, you know, I, I'm sounding very negative, but it's the only reason, is because I'm trying to build something positive off of that. You know, I see this kind of desolate landscape where everybody's like, Oh, I Well, there's an association with this guy, so I don't like that. And then this guy thinks this and I'm like, God, are you trying to, like, kill art? Like I don't think I'm making art, trust me, but I'm still just trying. I'm just trying to sell. I want to make something real again and just be like, boom, here it is. Oh, you're upset. Good, you know. Like, it's fine, you know. Like, within reason, we don't want to be edgy. I'm not trying trying to be fucking edgy. I think that's that's even worse. That's the other side of it, like people just being offensive for the sake, it's like, I'll grow up, you know, as, like, Bart Simpson shit. But, um, I just want to make something real. And I don't want to smooth the edges off to make it digestible, you know, I want it to be as it is. I want it to look nice. It's going to look sick. We've created a whole aesthetic with it and everything, but I just want to make it as real as possible, you know. And you know, like we did an episode, it's not ready yet, but we filmed it where we were with the new generation of, like, illegal underground street races in Japan, and we put a little trailer, and so many people messaged me, like, You're a disgrace. These people could have, like, ran someone over it's like, yeah, I know. I'm not telling you to love it. Just watch it, you know. And other people loved it, and it's like, good. That's the reaction I want, you know. And I don't want to make it. I don't need to go in my dock and go, actually, these high speed vehicles could kill someone, really, no shit… like, you know what? I mean, you shouldn't have to be told how to feel, you know. So I think that's where we're going with it. And I think it's, it's, I think people are going to really enjoy it. And I think it's not for journalists, you know, it's not for other journalists. It's kind of just for normal people. But I don't want it to make it, I don't want it to make one of these, like, gratuitous, like, we spend a week in the favela, you know, like, we might have to name it that in the fucking YouTube title, but that's not where you're gonna get, you know, the we, we spend a week in the favela with a gang, and the actual film is about how they have become a government in lieu of the government abandoning the people of the favela, you know? And that's a really interesting thing. And through that, there's a lot of, like, political, socio economic issues that you'll see come up, but without being, like, this kind of moralizer, like, Well, these guys have guns, and they're the bad ones. All we need is the government back. Maybe you don't the people there don't want the government back, because when they do, the police kill them. So, you know, it's like, who's the real gang here? So it's one of them, ones where I just kind of want to leave it a little bit open, but there's going to be obvious bias in it. I don't believe in non bias. It's impossible. But there is also kind of be an element of it where I just want to make it, you know, see what it is, see what you think of it. And if you don't like it, that's completely fine, you know, we'd have to agree agree on it. You know, certainly I filmed with a lot of people that politically, I probably don't agree with. But who am I like? You know, like you're not so special.
BREAK
Priyanka Raval 35:07
Are you a more gritty version of Louis Theroux?
Jake Hanrahan 35:10
I'm just me,
Priyanka Raval 35:12
That kind of format though, going to the fringes and seeing this and being like I was, just spent some time with it, and sharing their humanity… how do you differentiate what you do?
Jake Hanrahan 35:22
I love Louis Theroux – not the new stuff he's doing. I could not give a shit about interviews with like, what he's doing now. Like, I get it, yeah, I don't care. I get it though. Like, trust me, I get it. Like, he needs, he needs whatever. But his old stuff is, like, monumental. Like, it's incredible. But one thing I don't ever do is, like, faux naivety, you know, and I'm not an alien as much as he is, like, I think he that played his to his favour he's like, a very upper class, posh guy and a nerdy guy. And that for him, he's made it work really well. But for me, I'm obviously not going to be that guy. But we get different access, a different way, you know. Like, for example, when went to the favela, we weren't meant to be there that long, and after a day, they were like, you guys are all right. Like, you guys are different to what we expected. You can stay as long as you want, you know. And we did, and we got access to things that they realized that, like, Okay, you're not here to judge us, you know. And I think with Louis Theroux you never quite know. I think he does great work, though, right? I think he's amazing. And I think he I couldn't follow it at all. It's just a different style, like faux naivety, I'm not faux naive, you know, I get it, I get things. And I'll say straight up, like, but I'll never do like, I never do sneakiness, ever, ever, ever, yeah, I'll say, this is how it is, and this how it is. Sometimes you have to be careful. You have to ask things, obviously, in a certain way, because you don't want to get your head shot off. But, you know, I'm not going to be in the in the favela, be like, so tell me about all of these shootings you've done. You know what I mean?
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 36:38
Like, oh, if you can give me the dates and times, and if I just get a good shot of…
Jake Hanrahan 36:42
The execution, yeah, no, no. But you know, you can find that stuff out anyway. That's out there anyway, but it's for us. It was like, well, you there, what can you find out whilst you're there that you can't find out when you're not there? You know what? My biggest surprise was like, absolutely nobody we saw was outwardly scared of the gang, but everybody we spoke to was fucking terrified of the cops coming back in. And probably six months after we left, one of the main guys that… we didn't speak to him, but we saw him, he was, like, a commander and was like, Okay, you guys good. He was, like, pretty much executed by the cops. Like, don't get me wrong, he's a drug dealer. I'm not saying he's an angel, but like, you know what I'm saying? It was, yeah, you ain't getting arrested there. You know what I mean, you're getting grabbed and killed. So there is an element of that where I perhaps wouldn't have thought I was authentic as it was, had I not seen little girls, people in the houses waving, like, literally, as if the government weren't there. We went everywhere. We had, like, no restriction, you know, there was no setting up anything. We'd walk around the corner, you know, it was straight up and down. You know, we didn't even have, in the end, they just kind of let us be like, they were, like, all right, whatever. Like, you know, they had to radio people sometimes to be like, hey, gringos are coming. Don't shoot them. But other than that, like, it was, you know, it's fine. And we, we also went and interviewed civilians, which you don't see a lot of in a favela, you know, we went into civilian houses, and we went and spoke to, there's a, there's a whole gym, like a sports hall that the gang built with money, which, ironically, they built it to try and get kids off the street so they don't end up in the gang like them. So there's many layers to it that you just wouldn't see otherwise. So I think for me, going in with a faux naive attitude would be weird, because I feel, I don't think it's dishonest, necessarily. It's a tactic, but for me, it would feel dishonest, because why am I going to pretend I don't know something? You know…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 38:18
It's like Gonzo journalism, I guess has to always be around the personality of you, really…
Jake Hanrahan 38:22
I don't like Gonzo. I think Gonzo is a term that, like, more straightforward journalists use to almost belittle what you're doing. I don't feel like I've done Gonzo journalism, but I get your point. I just call it immersive.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 38:32
I mean, I think it does the thing which I think you were saying, of like, It acknowledges that there is no such thing as an unbiased journalist.
Jake Hanrahan 38:38
Yeah, yeah. I just think that stat should be journalism, no, I think, yeah, you know, human journalism. I mean, you try seeing some of the things I've seen at war and being like, Oh, well, you know, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna see this as a non biases, you know, you know, I've interviewed like, a 13 year old girl has been shot in a neck and can't go to hospital because the the regime forces, where I always want to let them into the hospital, it's like, you can't just go, Well, you know, the soldiers have a point. It's like, Nah, man, you can't, yeah, but, um, yeah, man, I don't know, like, Away Days I'm really happy with it. I'm really, I'm excited to get it out there. It's just, it's a very small team, and we don't have a lot of dough, so I'm editing it myself. So it's taken a minute. Man, yeah,
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 39:17
I want to talk about Rojava, because obviously, like, you've been there. You were arrested for reporting on it in 2014 Right?
Jake Hanrahan 39:23
And, no, I mean, technically, I was arrested for reporting in Baku, so southeast, North Kurdistan, because I was filming with PKK rebels. So I got arrested for that. And then after I got out, I went to Rojava, like, about a year, couple years later, yeah, with…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 39:37
And that was Robert Evans, right? And I thought that was like, that was really like, if people don't know, obviously, like, at the moment, in Syria, Islamist group HDS has just taken Aleppo. So what was kind of not a settled situation, but a stalemate to certain extent, has been blown open. And Turkey might take advantage of that too.
Jake Hanrahan 39:53
I think they will. You know, don't get me wrong. Assad is just just pure and utter evil. But like, at the same time, it's not quite as clear cut as everything's fine now. You know…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 40:01
Yeah, it's interesting. You sort of mentioned, you sort of some disillusionment to me, sort of before we recorded about, like, activism and politics. But actually, you know, Rojava is very political.
Jake Hanrahan 40:10
It is, it is, but it's also very although, it seems to me, anyone can put on their politics.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 40:13
Everyone says it is what they believe exactly, you know…
Jake Hanrahan 40:16
Like I see, like anarchists that think it's anarchists, Leninists, which thinks it's communist, which, I think that's the biggest mistake. It's definitely not a communist empire. Yeah, it's kind of, I mean, to be honest, the Kurds will tell you, it's, it is, what it is, it's Democratic confederalism, which it is, you know, which is a kind of, Oh God, I'm gonna have a word porridge now, but it's like a kind of, you know, decentralized Federalist state. But it does have a center. You know, it's not. It's like more of a kind of old school libertarian aspect, where each region governs itself, but you do have to answer to a central body for certain things, which, to be honest, is the only way I can see things work. And I think the idea of pure anarchism was just not compatible with human nature, personally. But I don't think there's any politics that is. I think this idea that there's a cover all and everything's fine. It's just never gonna happen like that. And I think Rojava is a very good example of that, you know, like, it definitely some things they've done are absolutely incredible. The one thing that to me was 100% real was the female equality situation. They're like, that's real. Like, when you're there, that is completely real. Like, it's more equal than, like, the West, you know, don't not saying the West is great, but you know what I mean? Like, we could learn something from that. For example, you can't have a male mayor and you can't have a female mayor. You have to have both, a co chair, you know, because men don't know what women want. Women don't know what men want, and blah, blah. And it's actually a lot more. There's none of this. Like, men are trash type stuff. Like, you know, I remember when this YPJ fighter like, asking us about that, like, randomly and being like, why do people in the West say that? She's like, we love our men. They they died for us to have this, you know, like, and we fight and die alongside them. And I was like, yeah, it's, it's not like, it's, it's not like, that's not necessarily like, an ideology. It's just a thing on the internet. And sometimes most people don't mean that, you know, but, but still, she was like, it's hurtful.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 41:57
What was interesting in your reporting was the way that, like, you sort of spoke to people who weren't necessarily fully bought into it. Like, I think there can be this, especially on the left, this sort of view of, like, you know, the Kurds. They're magical. They all think this communist…
Jake Hanrahan 42:18
Some of them believe. Some of them don't. You know, it's this is the problem. Like, people see this thing as, like, their pet, and it's like, well, I'm attached to this now, so I'm going to project what I think is good onto it. And anyone that says anything bad is a traitor. You know, I've been called, like, all sorts for pointing out that there's some serious corruption happening in Rojava. Oh, it's because of outside actors. It's because of this, or you're a traitor. No, it's happening. I am friends with people there that live there, that are not in the party, that are getting problems because they simply is corruption. Kurds are humans too, you know, yeah, to ignore it, you just become like, this idiot that's like, basically doing the same thing as everybody else. And just like, it's especially for, like, white Westerners that kind of take it on board as, like, this kind of team, you know? And it's like, no, these are human beings. They live and die like you can't just then dismiss someone's problems there, because it doesn't fit the narrative of your best team. You know, it's really unfair to people to do that. If someone that is in Rojava is saying, Hey, we've got some problems here, and you're like, oh, no, that doesn't line up with what I think that's really disgusting to do. That's like, a very I mean, it's like, what they call that Orientalist kind of vibe. And it's like, I never got into it. I'm like, no I see people as they are. You know, I don't care if I'm getting told off, like, if I see some problem there, it's getting so I remember telling YPG, I was like, that. I think we got good access, because they knew that… there is people that they're just going to make propaganda for them, and they treat them nice and but they know that that's not as hard hitting as, like, a real report. You know, they're smart people. I said, Look, I said, they were like, we'll give you access to this, this and this, but like, you know, we trust you. I said, Look, if you're gonna do something bad, everyone's gonna know about it. I'm not hiding anything. And they were like, No, we respect that, you know. And it's like, it's that thing of just being like, I know, you're not my pet. I'm not like, you know, no one likes a beg friend, you know what I mean. And there's a lot of people that go in there, like, oh, yeah, but there are issues there right now. But at the end of the day, you're talking about the only region where they've tried something that is a lot more, like, fair and equal, you know. And politically, I don't have an ism, I just don't like people being stamped on for, like, nothing, you know, it's like, you should be equal, men, women, whatever, like, people should have a fair chance. And it's one of the few places where that was like happening in some elements. But obviously I would be biased in that respect, because I, you know, I saw a lot of stuff there, and maybe I have different ideas. But then you'll get other people that will say, Well, no, like, you know, they have, they have muscled out other politicians and other political parties. It's like, Yeah, that's true as well. Actually, you know, like, there is no perfect thing. But again, I will say the female equality issue like that will live forever. I think, like whether Rojava falls or not, the legacy of that will just carry on and on and on and on, you know, and also, like a lot of religious equality as well, like, you know, we were filming with, we were in, like, Raqqa, and we were filmed with this all Arab SDF unit, and they were like, No, there's no problem. Were like, Kurd the Arab we were on the same side. We die, you know? And there's often this like thing that, like, oh yeah, the Kurds attack the Arabs, and they hate all the Arabs, or they love Assad. It's just not true. Man, honestly, the main thing people talk about in Rojava is their fear of Assad actually coming back. You don't hear it from like, you don't hear him, but ISIS, they know what to do with ISIS. You know, it's easy, exterminated now they've kind of done it, but yeah, man, it was, it was just, it's a really sad situation that's happening right now. But I don't know where it's gonna go. But I also don't know if, like, if it's, I don't… another thing I think people need to stop doing as well is where they're like, oh well, HTS have just said they want to work with the codes. It's like, oh well, we'll just believe that. Then, you know, someone sent me this thing the other day where they're saying, like, oh yeah. Like, we declared we want the Kurds to be equals. Like, well, that's that. Then I best stop talking about it. It's like, no, of course they're gonna say that… in the same day. They actually put out another, like, adjustment to their Sharia saying that they're gonna kill Jews. So I was like, Well, what about that then? And then, no reply, yeah. You know, it's like, look nothing. Like you guys are saying nothing is black and white. And I think it's really not like it's nothing revolutionary to see it as that. But unfortunately, in the in the times we're living in, things do get turned into a team sport, you know. And I'm certainly, definitely, without a doubt, guilty of it. I probably will do it in a minute. You know, I'm a hypocrite in some ways, don't get me wrong, because I'm only human. You know, that's just what happens. You know, you have to be honest about it. And if someone calls it out, don't go out. Someone calls me out, and they're just an imbecile. I'm like, imbecile. Fuck off or just ignore it. Like, that's fine. You don't have to listen to everybody. But, you know, just, it's just, it just is. There's problems here and there and everywhere, like everybody's fucking human and it's like, for some reason, we've lost a bit of that. It's not on reporting, you know, everybody's all good or all bad, you know, sorry, I'm rambling a bit, but it's just nice to be asked questions that I'm not asked every fucking time.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 46:52
One thing, and maybe this is when you've been asked about, I was, I was listening to the women's war sort of series, as prep for this, and like, what the thing I found, the really, just like, fascinating was when you interviewed the two sort of ISIS brides who were like, you know, but I think it was from Trinidad and then Barbados. So, like, broad Caribbean accents, one of them even talking about how free and easy she is, you know, they were involved in a death cult. Like, that was beheading people. Like, how do you approach it? What was that like?
Jake Hanrahan 47:21
Well we approached it differently. So there's three of us in there. It's me, Khabbat Abbas, which is, like, just the best person ever. She, like, this great local journalist in Rojava, like, really good friend of mine. We were kind of like, you know, Robert didn't have the same connections, but so we kind of went together as a team. Like, one's doing this, one's doing that. So then Robert was kind of like fronting the thing, and he's asking a certain way. She's asking another way. Because, of course, she speaks like Arabic as well. And I don't even think they did, actually, but yeah, one of them is funny. I actually, sorry to just a random one. I remember one of the one of the ladies kind of because Khabbat is just there in like normal clothes. And then one of the ladies was sort of like talking about almost down to Khabbat, like, about Islam, and her bat was like, I'm a Muslim. And she was like, oh, like, I am a Muslim. Like, it was really cool to see her just have this kind of like confrontation where it was like, How fucking dare you try to act like I'm not a real Muslim, because you're being doing this, you know? And it was like, yeah, like, you people have come to her country to do destruction, and you're trying to school Khabbat on how to be a Muslim. You know, it's crazy, but, yeah, but so, so they were, I don't know, I was very direct with it. I just said, like, you know, they were trying to do, oh, no, you know, like, you know, you would have been treated well, there's a point in the interview, I think it went in, actually, where I'm like, come on. Like me, if I walked up, turned up in like, you know, like, Raqqa I'd have been beheaded, and she goes, Yeah, you'd have been beheaded. And after that, like, we got on, like, well, in a way, I was like, All right, cool. See you later. But it was like, you have to just be, you know, you can't be, like, pussy footing around. Like, these are the victims. And bro, they flew out. They're the only two people from the whole Caribbean that flew out to join this, they are responsible for helping fighters on their their just killing, killing, and again, killing 99% other Muslims. And like, yeah. She advocates for slavery. Yeah. She had a slave. And I was like, Do you not see how, like, ironic that is as, like, a black woman, like black people living through, like, the hell of slavery in history, and you just repeated it, and she's like, Oh, well, it's not the same. Like, it's like, well, it kind of is, you know what I mean, like, slavery is slavery. But, um, yeah, that sucked, man, like, and I felt, and I didn't, honestly, after talking to them, I didn't feel any you know, people love to pretend like everyone is a victim. Everyone like this is not a victim. Some are victims, don't get me wrong, without a doubt, but they were not and, yeah, we actually, it's funny thing. Actually, I don't think you made it into the thing, but we met her son. He was, like, hanging around outside. He had, like, Rojava, like, you know, like the colorful I have you up here, actually, like one of these. There, like the scarf, oh yeah, and he had a green one on. So like, he has, like the Kurdish scarf on, and he was just done, man, he she brought her son. He was like, teenager bought him to, like, Raqqa and whatever. And he was so done, you know. And he was just like, I want to get out of here. Like, and he had come to, I think from the impression I got be like, the Kurds are all right, you know, that's why he was wearing the colors. You know, that's really weird thing to do, otherwise. And he was so done, you know, you know, like, he didn't, he didn't even look, he wasn't like, sad. He was just done. You know, he's like, I'm sick of this. Whatever he'd seen.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 50:42
Some people's mums take them to their choir practice. Others take them to the Islamic State. for
Jake Hanrahan 50:47
And I felt so bad that guys, wanted to be like, Man, I wish we could just take him, you know, get out, like, let's go. Remember that. But there's also, like, women as well. We actually saw I'm a woman just basically walk into like, the YPJ a little bit and be like, I'm with you guys. Like, I'm done with this. And there's, like, a lot of women that actually women that actually left and a lot of them are, like, rehabilitated. And whether, how true it is, who knows? But, like, at least if even one is real, like, it's good, you know, so, but yeah, there's a lot of people got tricked into it. A lot of people got brainwashed into it. But then there's a lot of people that certainly were just into it, yeah, and I don't get this idea of, like, it is kind of an ironic thing that kind of a lot of like, so called, kind of liberal or left people will be like, well, the women are not ISIS. They're the victims. I'm like, women have agency or they don't. Which is it? You know, if you have agency, you have agency to do bad as well. It's, ridiculous, you know? It's like this idea that they don't know their own minds. Well, why? Well, I think some of them do. I mean, I don't know, I don't want to seem harsh, but I rather feel sadness for their victims, as opposed to like, kind of Yeah, try and make out that these were like, you know, also… the real victims are the people that perished under these people, to be honest.
Priyanka Raval 52:16
Jake, for the people who are listening to this podcast and thinking maybe they share some of your disillusionment with the way the media is. Or maybe they, or also maybe a bit fucked off of the left. Do you have like, a call to action?
Jake Hanrahan 52:30
None whatsoever feeling you would say that I'm not interested real life, real life people and not looking for calls to action. Real life people are not trying to find a little schism for themselves to be in. Luckily, I live where I was born and I'm from, and 99% of these issues that blow up on the internet that so called leftists or right wing or whatever are so care about, most people have not a clue that they exist. Do you know it's like, it's the reality? The irony of like, the left being so unbelievably scared of the working class, is the reality, in my opinion, they only like the working class when they can, like, latch onto it as some kind of trendy thing. And the reality is, it's very rough and sad and not very sexy, you know. It's not Ken Loach. It's a lot harder, you know. And there's a lot of people in a lot of bad situations that you probably won't want to help if you're too affiliated with one political thing, and that, to me, is not right. It doesn't matter. Like suffering is suffering, you know, and it's like people have many different dimensions, and to simply just say, Oh, well, all of this, or all of that, doesn't work. What I like is what I see people doing in communities where, you know, like, for example, where I live, the people that run the food bank are kind of a political They just know they should help. You know, they're not trying to espouse a certain thing or tell people off. They're going, you're hungry, here's free food, that I love. I think that's always and don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with like, being political with it, but I think… it's what I do. I like people like Dope Mag, you know, like, even though I don't really like the idea of putting even a political symbol on certain things, like, if someone's homeless or whatever, but I think they do, like, amazing work. You know, they're helping, whether they don't check your ideology before helping. Do you know what I mean? And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, Yeah, let's, like, help out a Nazi or whatever. Like, that's the other thing. You say something like this, and people go, Oh, well, then help the Nazis. Like, yeah, that's, yeah, you really that's what I'm saying. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, so disingenuous the way people take things. I'm not saying that, but I just don't think people are that bothered…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 54:23
When you explain that. Like, you know, that some of these things come from, like, material conditions…
Jake Hanrahan 54:30
Like if you're a fucking racist Nazi man, like, I have nothing for you, apart from a slap on the face. Like, don't get me wrong.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 54:35
You've avoided the question a bit, but I think you have said, like, you know, going out actually helping people with what they need help with. Like, I think that's pretty solid.
Jake Hanrahan 54:49
Imagine you've spent six hours arguing on the internet that someone is CIA because they don't have the same political ideology as you, you could have spent six hours organizing food for the homeless. What should you have done? You know, I don't like this thing either of like, we're right. You know, I think there's a lot of that. The right wing have it completely. Left wing have it a bit. It's like, who's to say we're right? Like, you can have your ideas, but I don't think it's right to say, well, this is the right way. It's like, well, I don't know. Man, I don't think you can say that until everything else is sorted. Do you know what I mean? It's just not very interesting I think to the vast majority of people.
Priyanka Raval 55:22
It's interesting, because I feel like the implicit thing behind the work that you do is maybe, like, an awareness of the importance of speaking to people and getting their stories and getting that out there. But then also, when you say, like, what actually creates change, it feels like you're saying it's just actually doing something on the ground that helps people, like, maybe in your local area. So is it both?
Jake Hanrahan 55:43
I think so. I mean, surely that's where you'd start, right? It's funny, like, you know, you won't see, I won't name any, but you won't see any of these, like, very London centric left podcasters or media or… I don't see them around here. I mean, East Midlands, it's a very deprived area. I don't see any of them here. I never seen anyone when I got up north. I don't see any of them in Manchester, really, you know, I don't see them there. No one else sees them there. They effectively don't exist for 99% of the country. So you can go on your little like, you know, you can get your sound bites in on Sky News, and you can talk about things, and you can do your little James O'Brien and sneer at the whole world. But ultimately, it's for probably about 2% of the country, if that, you know. And I'd argue that it's probably, probably the reason everything keeps going bad is because people keep thinking that what they're doing is super important. And it's like, well, maybe people are voting this way because they're sick and tired. Maybe they're not actually evil, you know. But again, I don't know. Maybe they are evil. Maybe I'll find out, yeah, and it's like, oh, well, I'll be in the gulag, or I'll be in the dungeon and I'll be like, I was wrong about that, and so be it, you know…
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 56:47
We'll be recording our Gulag podcast, yeah, doing the blow by blow account…
Jake Hanrahan 56:51
Well, as I said, we all need to help each other, but I don't know, man, I'm tired of it. I spent years doing this, you know, as a teenager, I was very involved in, like, what would probably now be considered like, left wing politics. But I just, I just want to make interesting things, and I want to meet interesting people. You know, a really, really good example of this, I was at King of the Streets recently, this, you know, the biggest underground fight club in the world. And you've got everyone in there. You've got Neo Nazis, you've got probably jihadis, you've got anti fascists, you've got every race under the sun. The irony is, the King of the Streets team is more multicultural than any Antifa group I've ever seen in my life. So let that sink in. But you know, you're seeing all that and like, and I realized, and they were like, look, we don't care about politics. We don't. Like leave it out. This is about fighting. And it was really funny, you know, to just see, and it's the weirdest things you got, like, these tattooed up Nazis coming up and showing respect to um, one of the best fighters, like, a black hooligan, and he's called as fuck, you know, I mean, and we're chatting, and they're like, yeah, like, they're like, you know? And I was like, This is a weird environment. He was like, look, it's just about something else. It's like, yeah. And I was like, don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating everybody should do that, but people are complicated.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 58:01
Sometimes a thing is just a thing.
Jake Hanrahan 58:05
Well, my problem is, like, people were often said, Oh yeah, KOTS is all is neo Nazi? I think, no, it's not. They have, like, some of their main, biggest fighters are… one is one of the biggest, like, Antifa guys in the Basque Country. You know, it's like, well, so now, are they Antifa? No. So then they're not this, you know? It's like, I don't know. It's just, it's just a thing where, like, things can all mix, and it doesn't necessarily make it one thing or the other. Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad, it's just quite an interesting thing to see that outside of this kind of world, people just are doing their thing, you know? They just keep going.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 58:39
I think we probably should round it up. Yeah, that's as good a place as any. Thank you very much joining us. I think people are gonna have a lot to think about, even if you don't think they should…
Jake Hanrahan 58:49
Don't bother me, I'm not gonna reply!
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 58:53
DM him telling me he was a hypocrite…
Jake Hanrahan 58:49
Alright, see you in a bit.
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OUTRO
Priyanka Raval 59:03
You know what, Jake was not as obnoxious as I was expecting. I only say that because I've been listening to a couple of his podcasts and he really, I feel like he was quite balanced with us. Maybe he was reigning in a bit, but in other podcasts, I've just heard him go off on, like, you know, nanny state. He was saying, like the media is wrapped in cotton wool, hyper sensitive cry babies, everything has to be packaged. If I didn't know him better, he kind of sounded like a culture warrior complaining about the snowflake generation.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 59:37
I think, I like that every episode now is the outro is us going well, here's what we really thought. No, I think that some of the criticisms, even though they can be kind of pass it off into, like this culture war stuff. I mean, it is just true. Like, yeah, there is, like, a tendency to, you know, conflict aversion from the media, who want to keep people clicking and making the money, and don't ever want to be tarred with, oh, well, you once said this thing 10 years ago, and how dare you comment on this completely, and you're like, and I think that is something that, like, it makes us all bristle. Like we all know that feeling like, you know, I still have people who will angrily go, what about this one decision you made about an event you organized 10 years ago? What about it?
Priyanka Raval 1:00:17
Yeah, I think it's also he hits upon a real journalistic conundrum, which is like, you know, as we said in the interview, when the far right riots happened in August, we wanted to interview people. I especially wanted to interview people who held some of these, often probably quite offensive, anti immigrant views, but there were lots of nuance to the different arguments I was hearing. And we wanted to, I wanted to show that, but there was like an internal debate about, you know, are we platforming these views? But then at the same time, I remember, in the summer, I produced an interview that Sean did when he sat down with Sarah Crew is a police chief commissioner, and gave her quite a lot of grilling hard questions, but we got a backlash of like, why are you platforming the police? And it's a bit like, sometimes we're just talking to people, and that doesn't equate to platforming or endorsing. And sometimes, yeah, I think that feedback can be quite irritating. Or it's like, yeah, we are trying to interrogate these, these views, but also just sometimes let them be. And that, I felt like, that's what Jake was trying to say, is that there is value in being a kind of witness, and showcasing things without necessarily always having to be like, obviously those views are abhorrent. Obviously that's not very good. And, you know, like imposing a kind of moral code on what people are doing and saying and thinking, right?
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 1:01:41
Yeah, I think there's multiple things with that. I think that. I think, like, one of the things is that, yeah, there is this sort of tendency now where if you show something, you're automatically endorsing it, like you see it with like, like dramas as well, where they're like, well, one of the characters in it is really bad. Well, yeah, then you think he's bad. It doesn't mean they're saying the bad things he's doing are great. And also, I think I mean platforming. You know, the chief of police, they have a platform. They are a public figure. And like, there's something interesting to see these things as they are. And also, you're probably going to get more out of people if you're not just jumping down their throats on every single thing, and you allowing them space to explain themselves like that actually is more interesting, even if what they're saying can be quite odious, what they're doing is quite odious. But like, also, yeah, and I think your reporting on the on the riots was really fascinating. Of like, you know, actually, you have people telling stories, of like, a friend of mine killed themselves because they couldn't feed their kids. And like, yeah, if you don't understand the levels of despair that can create these feelings, even if they're misguided, even if people's views aren't completely coherent. We need to be willing to explore that and allow people to be that way and not be perfect, and allow, you know, not even scope, to change necessarily. But like the idea of going to like a bare knuckle boxing thing and getting my head kicked in by hard bastards, to me, sounds like hell, and I can't really understand necessarily why anyone would want to do that. But at the same time, you know, I go and injure myself shoving heavy things over my head. Other people think that's probably mental. And what people do just to get by, I think, is is interesting, and why they get drawn to certain things at certain times.
Priyanka Raval 1:03:16
And it really reminded me, actually, of this BBC interview I saw with Quentin Somerville, who had to interview Shamima Begum, who was the teenager from Britain who went to join ISIS. And it wasn't an interview, it was a telling off. And you could see that the brief was, you cannot make this girl look in any way sympathetic. You You can't give her a hearing. You can't give her any kind of you can't allow her any kind of context. It was just like a grilling. And I remember watching that like, this is not an interview. This is the BBC deciding to tell someone off without giving her even a moment to explain, because of that conflation with, well, if you let her explain, then you're endorsing her, or you're platforming her or showcasing extremist views. And you know, it's really, yeah, I definitely, I'm definitely more in favor of his approach.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 1:04:10
I think it's been really interesting to chat. I hope people got as much from it as I think we did. I think we definitely be thinking about how we can sort of use the sort of things we discuss, and how what we can learn from that. And hopefully you do too. Without further ado, I'll say goodbye and we will see you in the new year. So Merry Christmas and all that. For all those celebrating, make sure to have a massive falling out with your parents about a political argument you'll never change their mind on.
Priyanka Raval 1:04:35
We'll see you worn and weary in the new year. Ho, ho, ho.
Isaac Kneebone-Hopkins 1:04:41
This has been people just do something. I've been Isaac Kneebone Hopkins, and with me has been the inimitable Priyanka Raval. If you like the show, please give us some money to keep it alive. You can join the Bristol cable and do that at the Bristol cable.org forward slash, join 10 pound a month, or 120 pound a year will give you early access to the podcast, Friday, before the main release on the Monday after. If you've got any questions or comments or objections or complaints, email us at content at the Bristol cable.org This has been a podcast produced by the Bristol cable and our incredible producer, but terrible boat painter, George Colwey. We're off for our Christmas break, so join us in January, when we'll be back, bigger and better and new and exciting. You know, changing the world one podcast at a time.