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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Emily: It looks like, looks rough, buddy.
Jeremy: Alright, you guys
ready to jump into this?
Emily: Let's rock and roll.
Jeremy: good evening and welcome to
progressively horrified the podcast where
we hold horror to progressive standards
that never agreed to tonight We're
talking about the 2009 Based on a clive
barker short story film dread I am your
host jeremy whitley and with me tonight.
I have a panel of cinephiles and cinebytes
First, they are here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy vampire binary.
My co host, Ben Kahn.
Ben, how are you tonight?
Ben: I've never seen a movie more
desperately in need of a scars guard.
They made it too soon before
we could, like, tap into our
national scars guard reserves.
Jeremy: Sean Evans does feel like
a secret Skarsgård, I gotta say.
He's, he's, he's got the vibes.
And the cinnamon roll of Cenobites,
our co host, Emily Martin.
How are you tonight, Emily?
Emily: Well, there's no judge in
this dread movie except for us.
So
Jeremy: There's also no law.
There's nobody to be the law in this
Ben: Yeah, this movie doesn't even pretend
to have police that are then useless.
This is just a This is just a
lawless society that is still, like,
A post industrial David Fincher
90s, even though this movie takes
place when fucking iPhones exist.
Emily: Oh yeah,
Jeremy: Yeah, and it also takes
place in Ameri Britain which
we'll definitely talk about.
And our guest tonight, horror
author and movie nerd, T.
L.
Bodine.
T.
L., welcome!
T. L.: Hey, thanks for having me.
Jeremy: Oh, it's, it's, great to have you
and thanks for bringing us this movie.
I know this was, uh, one
you wanted to talk about.
Why don't you tell us a little bit
about yourself and, uh, a little bit
about why you, uh, Why you chose Dredd.
T. L.: Yeah, for sure.
I mean, who really chooses dread, right?
No.
Um, so obviously, hi, I'm TL.
I write horror.
My newest book came out
last year called Neverest.
I've got kind of fingers and pots
of a lot of different things.
And one of the things that I.
used to do a lot and have fallen
off of is writing movie reviews for
a website called Ravenous Monster.
And by way of doing that, I stumbled into
writing just a lot of reviews of a lot of
low budget indie films and miscellaneous
screeners that came through, etc, etc.
Mixed in with that, I think I discovered
this film independently, but was like,
Hey, we totally should cover this.
This is, this is our vibe.
I think that was for me about 2011.
So it had been out for a little
bit when I kind of unearthed it.
And I don't know.
There's something very charming
about this movie and the darkest,
most screwed up way possible.
I kind of unironically love it despite
how very rough it is around all of
its edges both purposefully and non.
And I think for me, like, a big part
of it is just how much weird charisma
and just bafflingness Sean Evans
is bringing to the table is Quaid.
Like the character of Quaid
just fascinates me endlessly.
Feels like a guy that everyone
narrowly avoided dating in college.
Maybe, maybe that was just me.
I don't know.
But like, if you hang out outside of
like the philosophy classes in college,
smoking a cigarette, you meet this guy
and then you're like, thank God I never.
Got to know him any better.
And I feel like this is a cautionary tale
about getting to know that guy better.
Jeremy: Yeah, I'm pretty sure this guy
was in my sweet freshman year of college.
I have to say, I don't know if
it's, it's something about the
vibe of the movie or something
about the way that he has written.
But I was all ready for the reveal
that Quaid was not real, did not
exist, was a figment of one of
the other characters imagination.
Ben: there has to have been a version
of the script where that was the case.
And somebody at some point
was like, You can't take every
plot point from Fight Club.
Jeremy: yeah, so
Emily: plot points from
sex, lies and videotape.
Okay.
Listen,
Jeremy: now
Ben: can take a lot from Fight
Club, but then You can't have
your whole script be Fight Club.
Jeremy: I think it is worth pointing
out that this is, uh, written and
directed by Anthony de Blasi, who has
done a lot of other horror movies.
This was his debut, but it is based.
on a short story by Clare Barker from
Books of Blood, which is also where the
movie The Book of Blood and, the movie
The Midnight Meat Train got their sources.
And this feels a lot more to me
like The Midnight Meat Train than,
say, Hellraiser, uh, or Nightbreed.
especially in that, like, And
I'm sure we'll cover this at some
point in this, this conversation.
Heiberger wants to have women
in his movies, in his stories,
but he does not know what to do
with them once they're there.
He's like, I feel like he feels
there's an importance to having a
straight relationship in the story.
And then having a mysterious man who,
like, the, the, the straight guy is
interested in, uh, in a way that's
definitely not sexual, but absolutely is.
Ben: the Clive Barker ness of it
really comes out in what is honestly
one of the gayest no homo scenes of
two men on opposite sides of a room,
each having sex with a woman, locking
eyes with each other the whole time.
Emily: big berserk energy right there.
T. L.: My favorite part of that entire
event is that Steve wakes up from his
reverie and looks very confused about
why he's on the couch with the girl
they picked up and not with Quaid.
Like, he is, he is clearly like, okay,
I remember going home with Quaid.
Wait, who are you?
Jeremy: I was like, there was definitely a
point in this movie where I was going back
through my mind to try and, like, remember
Any cases where there was somebody, like,
in the scene with him that was talking to
Quaid specifically and not him, because
I was like, Maybe, maybe he is Quaid.
I think part of that is, is led to
by the, like, Manic twink energy that
Jackson Rathbone puts off anyway, because
like, We've seen, we watch Twilight.
He is the, like, Manic twink brother in
Twilight that, like, looks like Quaid.
He looks like he might
explode at any moment.
He just, he's a time bomb.
And he is so, he is supposed to be
the like, balanced one in this movie.
Ben: puppy dog eyes this entire film.
Emily: I will say there was An
essence of the devil man in there.
I was, I was kind of appreciating that.
there was a little bit of
real Oscar in our, uh, quaid.
But, you know, we didn't
have any demons or angels.
So, I mean,
this is the 1 of the rare Clive
Barker forays that it doesn't
involve that sort of thing.
Ben: Again, there's Fight Club, there's
a little Hannibal Lecter in there,
there's some Saw, like, there's a real
2000s stew going on in this movie.
Jeremy: Yeah.
And including a lot of the filmography,
I was looking at like, I was looking
at when this came out and I was
trying to, I was trying to place
it by Fast and the Furious movies.
And I was like, Oh, it's the
same year as Fast and Furious,
the fourth one, which is.
Darker and sweatier than the other ones.
And I was like, oh
yeah, all right, got it.
Ben: was the era where Dark Knight
had come out, you know, Royale was
getting people in that grim and gritty.
State,
T. L.: This was the year of,
like, the human centipede, Saw VI.
Emily: yeah.
T. L.: We were six movies
deep into Saw at that point.
We'd abandoned all hope.
Ben: the,
Iraq war was still a mess, but we'd kind
of stopped paying attention to it by then.
T. L.: the Last House on the Left
remake came out that same year.
I also, I don't know if this is
cosmic coincidence or if, if they
were aware of each other in any
way, but I think it's significant.
This came out a year after Martyrs,
which I think it shares some DNA, I
don't think it's as good of a film
as Martyrs, but I think they're
asking kind of the same questions in
some ways, and maybe we were just.
I don't know, nationally or
internationally, culturally grappling with
trying to find some kind of meaning in
pain and just how stupid that pursuit is.
But they make a really interesting
duo if you, if you want to be
really depressed for an evening,
take them as a double feature.
Ben: There's definitely, like, I don't
know, a post 911 craziness about it?
That I still feel.
Here's your, like, I feel like
Quaid has the energy of, like,
I have to kidnap and torture
people, or else the terrorists win.
Emily: He is very pragmatic
about his Tyler Durden ness.
Like, the, the, the Tyler Durden ness
of him, he, I mean, he is haunted, he is
combining a lot of elements, not, I mean,
I think he's, he's a lot of, of these, um,
Ben: I kept waiting for the reveal
that he somehow killed his own
parents as, like, a six year old axe
Emily: Yeah, that's, that was
the twist I was waiting for.
But, especially if they
had, like, a, a glimpse
Ben: Well, I was waiting for it
because I'm like, yes, movie,
please, please show us this tiny
child standing over dead bodies.
Emily: that would have, that
would have been pretty cool.
Honestly, that would have been a good,
Jeremy: this movie I think was
haunted by the, the fact that it feels
like it should have a twist and the
twist is just the plot of the movie.
It's like, oh yeah, and then he
uses the stuff that he learned from
these interviews to torture people.
And I was like, yeah, of course he did.
Like, I've seen this man.
I've watched the rest of this movie.
Of course he used those
things to torture people.
Ben: the twist of this movie is the guy
who has already shown clear signs of being
physically abusive, and mentally unstable.
Turns out he's violently
unstable and prone to abuse.
This is, this is one of those movies
and, and as we've covered a lot of
episode, you know, movies, uh, for
these episodes, it's becoming a hacing
format that I've noticed more and more.
And, you know, maybe watching all
these movies makes me a little
less kind, but I'm getting a little
tired of movies that don't really
start until the last half hour.
Like,
Emily: on the movie for me
because some of the like if
there's vibes I'm here for that.
Ben: there's vibe, but this is definitely
one movie, but like, we, we've just
been covering a lot of movies where
it is a solid, like, hour of setup
to then just get, like, just a third
then of, like, the actual plot.
Like, not everything has to be
Scream, where we're getting kills
in the very first, like, scene, but
the degree to which, like, I want
shit going real fa faster than two
thirds of the way through the movie.
Jeremy: yeah, so we mentioned Jackson
Rathbone and Sean Evans and are in
this, the two other characters who
I matter really are, uh, played
by Hanny Steen and Laura Donnelly.
They are, are as close to
female leads as we have.
I'm going to have some issues with
their portrayal generally, but you
know, we'll, we'll get to that.
Ben: Oh, I I kept waiting for Cheryl to
get real badass and it did not happen.
It
Jeremy: yeah.
I feel like this whole, everybody in this
movie was waiting for somebody else to get
bad ass and it never quite came together.
Ben: Was a real game of telephone.
Everyone was like, where
are you going to go?
I was like, oh, I thought
you were going to get badass.
I mean, I can get badass if
you're not going to, but I
thought you had that covered.
Emily: there was a yeah there was a little
a lack of commitment To the badassness on
a lot of fronts in that one but there is
one, character that gets badass that I was
like, oh, okay, I was not expecting that,
so I guess, good job movie, although, you
know, you did telegraph that, but, um,
Jeremy: do before, uh, I want to get
Emily started on the recap here, but
before we do that, I did want to mention
just cause it's the weirdest, you know,
Or the funniest coincidence for me
being based on a Clive Barker movie.
This movie is chock full of
British actors doing their absolute
cumberbatchiest American accents.
They're just, sort of muddled, muttering
half out of the side of their mouth.
They're just like, this is
what Americans sound like.
They're just real, real serious.
And I'm just, it's, and I was like, T.
L.
and I were talking about this before,
before this started, and it's like
Ben: I like how your British accent
defaults to Michael Caine after a while.
Jeremy: yeah, it's like, it could
have just been in Britain, they have
film schools there like, you could
have said it there and then not had
everybody in the movie do a bad accent.
Yeah,
T. L.: absolutely no reason
this movie had to be American.
There's nothing American about it.
It's a baffling choice.
Ben: I think they were worried
that it would be too weird having
a villain with a British accent.
We're just not used to
that in American cinema.
Jeremy: I was just thinking about
that, like, next to Hellraiser, where
we talked for like an hour about them
dubbing over the British accents,
Ben: Okay, that still remains
one of the craziest fucking
things I've ever seen in a film,
Jeremy: they just sort of pre dubbed
over the British accents in this movie.
They just did it, they did
it in their heads beforehand.
Ben: well, you see this a lot, like,
if you want a really good example of
this, like, really pay attention to
Charlie Hunnam's accent in Pacific Rim.
Jeremy: God, I fucking hate Charlie
Adams accent in Pacific Rim.
Ben: It might be the single
worst part of that whole movie.
Um,
Jeremy: fornia, like, it's, it's
half Brooklyn and half whatever,
Ben: what you've got is, and you see
this a lot, is, they put so much effort
in trying to maintain the accent,
and, That their tone is always pretty
monotone, like they're not really able
to put much emotion into their voice
because they're putting so much effort
into just maintaining the accent.
Which is why Tom Hardy just has a
crazy ass voice that belongs to fucking
nowhere in every role he does now.
What is What is Eddie Brock's accent?
It belongs to nowhere on the planet.
Emily: Listen, he, he talks like
that, and that's just how he is, okay?
We can't hold it against him.
Jeremy: All I can imagine is like, Eddie
Brock was like, born in Brooklyn, raised
in Florida, and now lives in California.
Like that's, that's the only way his
Ben: Boston in it, there's
California there, there's a
little Donald Duck in the voice.
Little post industrial.
Emily: It's so perfect.
It's a, it's, it's the voice
that Mountain Dew speaks with.
And I think, uh, that is appropriate for
that film, but let's talk about this film.
Jeremy: Dive in here, Emily.
Tell us what happens in 2009's Dread.
Emily: Okay, so there's no judge,
there's no Sylvester Stallone.
So just, let's get that out of the way.
Jeremy: There is an A, and only two Ds.
Emily: yeah, there's no
extra weird spelling.
Okay.
Um, but it does get a little new metal.
So once.
we, uh, we start with our,
protagonist, Gerard Way.
I mean, Stephen Grace.
He is going to college and he is
in a philosophy class because it
counts towards his film major.
In philosophy class,
he meets Tyler Durden.
I mean, Sir Quaid, the
Lord of Edge, who is all,
Ben: and is not 25.
Emily: I mean, he can be 25 in college.
so, Edge Lord Quaid is asking,
what is life really about?
And fear.
What about fear?
Let's talk about fear.
Ben: Quaid is very 30 in this movie.
He very much looks like the 30
year old undergrad that he is.
Jeremy: I was a little confused as to
whether Quaid was even supposed to be
in college at various points in this
movie because he lives in a He lives
in what appears like to be an abandoned
house in which he is squatting Yeah,
Emily: John Bender and, and, uh, Breakfast
Club vibes a little bit, like, you're,
Jeremy: we never I don't think we ever
see him in a class he just like runs into
Ben: Are there
Jeremy: outside of class
Ben: Like, I don't think
we even see teachers.
Like, their grades are just posted
up on a wall for everyone to see.
Emily: We see one teacher at the very
beginning of the film, and that's how
we know that it's a philosophy class,
because he's like, what is philosophy?
Well, it's Stuff.
And then Gerard Way is like, wow.
Quaid asks Gerard what his secret
fears are, and Gerard is like,
actually, no, I, I won't tell you,
and then Quaid is like, come on!
And that will be picked up on later.
Um, Quaid
Ben: I really like the way that he tried,
like, that Stephen tried playing off.
He was like, I got a chill life.
I'm a pretty, just, boring, normal guy.
I mean, if I guess if I had really had
to think about it, I guess there was
that one time my older brother died in
Emily: Yeah, horribly in front
of me in the car or whatever.
Quaid invites Gerard over to his
creepy house to look at him naked.
Spoilers, they do not kiss.
in this film.
I just wanted to make sure
everybody didn't get their hopes up.
Quaid is one of those dudes that who
paints naked women's tits with all
the ceremony in the world and then
is like, she has a face, I guess.
I think that's an important just
kind of portrait of his character.
Quaid wants Gerard
Ben: He put a lot of detail
into the tits, though.
Emily: Oh yeah, no, I've,
I've, I went to college.
Ben: those are, like, spectac Like,
look, if you're gonna focus that
much on them, like, at least they're
pretty spectacular, those paintings.
But at
Emily: I, I mean,
Ben: it's in areas are
Emily: he does understand
light and shadow on a sphere.
Let me put it that way.
Jeremy: And it is a good point, good
time to point out that all of the breasts
in this movie are mighty spherical.
Um,
Emily: spherical breasts.
Jeremy: of, there's a lot of not
particularly real breasts in this movie.
And I think it says a lot about
the priorities of the director and
Ben: for no reason in particular Maybe
check out our episode on the audition
directed by Takashi Mikey After this.
Emily: oh, I don't, I didn't even
think about that, but mm, ah, mm.
Okay, so, speaking of fear.
Quade wants Gerard to do videos
about fear for his thesis.
That's Gerard I mean, Steven's thesis.
Steven is Gerard.
I'm having trouble.
So this is a fear study.
They are studying dread, I guess.
There does not seem to be an
actual thesis to this thesis.
They are just sex lies and videotaping
people talking about the worst
shit that ever happened to them.
But don't worry,
Ben: Yeah, I'm still glad you find
out that there's no actual thesis.
Emily: Yeah, no,
Ben: No argument that making
here There's nothing they're
trying to actually discover.
They're just interviewing
people reality show style
Jeremy: he's, he's in a film class and
there doesn't, like, I guess we see the,
his girlfriend at some point editing.
Cheryl is editing at some
point, but we don't, like.
Ben: Well,
Jeremy: It's not clear what
this movie is that he's making,
it's just a series of like,
Ben: he's decided
Jeremy: dramatic
Ben: psychological study
for his film thesis.
Emily: yeah, and you know, I guess
those are taped or they're edited
Ben: I know the movie
Emily: Cheryl's there.
She
Ben: done with it, but I was like,
this is a particularly flimsy house
of cards, like, collegiate logic wise.
T. L.: Well, they, they invoke,
they invoke Kinsey early on.
They, they, they think they
are doing a Kinsey study on
Ben: Oh yeah, they want
to be the Kinsey of
T. L.: Whether they're succeeding
at that is debatable, but that's
what they said they wanted to
Ben: was that, when he mentioned
Kinsey, boy did that scene not
go where I thought and hoped it
Emily: right.
Jeremy: well known filmmaker, Kinsey.
Also, I think the movie about
Kinsey came out in 2004.
So, I'm sure that's how, uh,
I'm sure that's how Anthony
de Blasi knows about Kinsey.
Emily: So,
Ben: Yes, because we are still a few
years away from Masters of Sex starring
Michael Sheen and Lizzie Kaplan.
Emily: and despite Kenzie being
here there are women that these male
characters are interested in apparently.
And they are Cheryl the sexy editor
and Abby, the sexy asterisk librarian.
I, there is an asterisk because
it's a big plot point that Abby
thinks she is not sexy because she
has a birthmark on half her body.
But she has, she's a librarian.
And she has a pet crow at the
library, and I'm like, girl, your
eyeball could be falling out, and I
would absolutely Netflix and chill
with you, like, for real, though.
Jeremy: I am entirely
Emily: marry you and have your children,
Jeremy: I'm entirely unclear as to why
Steven is like Cheryl and not like,
and not at all into Abby, who is like
clearly doting on him and is also, uh, you
know, a librarian or the pet crew, like,
Emily: also very chill about a lot
of things that you, and, and that you
Ben: is why,
Emily: shouldn't be chill about.
Ben: well this is why the movie needed
to go harder on its gayness, that,
like, because after the first half hour
it kind of dials back on the gayness,
because Abby has a line where it's like,
You never go out when I ask you to,
but you just hop in this dude's car.
T. L.: Well, and there's a great missed
opportunity later, too, because there's
a, there's a scene where Quaid is
explaining, or not Stephen is explaining
to Quaid why not Abby, and he's, you
know, said something about, like, my
heart isn't there, and the queer subtext
is so hard at that point, it's like,
Oh, this is when you're going to confess
that you have the thing for Quaid, right?
Because Cheryl was not even on,
really, the radar at that point.
It's like, okay, yeah, your heart's not
with Abby because it's totally in Quaid.
No, okay, all
Ben: Greatspan.
Yeah, no, I wrote that down because
it was such a fucking corny line.
He says, my heart is somewhere else,
which is right up there with Liu
Kang, my heart belongs to another
in Mortal Kombat Annihilation.
Emily: listen, I mean, if they leaned into
that, I think it would have been great.
Right.
But only if he was Indicoid.
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, and this is
no, no shade on Hanny Steen or I
guess Cheryl at all, but Cheryl is
a big bag of nothing at this point.
Like she hasn't been
given any screen time.
She's.
Cute, I guess, but like, I feel like
this, this movie has Like I said, it
has issues with its women, and that
like, Abby is the closest thing to a
personality, like, that women have, and
her, her personality is, is a librarian
that has a crow, and also has a birthmark,
which like, I don't know getting too
Ben: That's a, that's, that,
that's a whole, that's a real cat
of worms how the movie handles.
Emily: I want to talk about that a little
bit later when we talk about our, our our
Ben: that was such a mixed, that was such
a storm of mixed emotions, cause I'm like,
this is one of the most like, graphic and
disturbing scenes I've like, can recall
seeing, but this is also dumb, right?
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: I mean, feel like way smarter
than jumping a tub of bleach, like,
Ben: dumb, like, I understand the
trauma, but I still feel like this
is a dumb response, even if you're
going to go for a bunch of self harm.
Emily: yeah.
I agree.
Justice for Abby.
But, uh, yeah, so we have,
we have Abby, we have Cheryl.
Ben: doesn't get to fuckin come
in like a heroic two face, just
like, double wielding axes.
Emily: Yeah, that's my, that's
my version of the movie.
Anyway,
Ben: I think I just broke
Jeremy a little bit.
Emily: we found, so we find out that
Quaid Edgelord is on a zillion drugs
because he's one of those unfortunate
few small children that survived a
horror movie where an axe murderer
killed his entire family in front of him.
That's a big bummer, man.
It's rough, buddy.
However, he stops doing drugs because
he, his edge is not lord enough for
the dreadhead challenge and he starts
upending glasses of respect women
juice and then basic respect people's
boundaries juice on everyone's head.
He breaks Gerard's I mean, he breaks
Stephen's watch because he is an asshole.
Stephen is like, whack!
And then all the ladies
are jumping on him.
Uh, we find out Cheryl doesn't eat meat
because her dad worked at a slaughterhouse
and then would molest her when he came
home from work covered in meat juice.
We find out Abby is self
conscious about her birthmark.
But Gerard likes Cheryl, so he can't
deal with Abby, and Abby is sad.
Abby tells him to get out of
her house, and Gerard leaves the
tape of her confession, where she
addresses to show her birthmark.
Ben: the, the degree to which
Steven fumbles this bag,
Emily: This is a, this is
the, the fumblest of bags.
Jeremy: He fumbled that bag and fumbles
the literal, like, camera as well, like,
that he just, he is so, he is so anxious
to get away from this naked woman who
is telling her that, telling him that
she wants him, that he leaves his entire
camera and rig and everything behind.
Ben: Well, it's like, this only
works like, kind of reaction
only works if he's gay.
Because otherwise, this was like,
a scene where he was like, said
a lot of really romantic things.
Reassure her about like her body and
her issues and then at the very end
was like, yeah, actually psyched out
Emily: Yeah, yeah, it was a really weird
moment for him to be like, actually,
Ben: kind of comes out looking like
an asshole Who just who kind of just
like like I don't know that level of
just like you're perfect Like you're
perfect like oh, there'd be your
sisters are like they're beautiful just
like their sister you You're perfect
the way you are but I'm still not in
but I'm just not into you that way
Emily: yeah, so,
Ben: out like a fucking asshole that I
think is only saved if he's gay, if he's,
like, coming to terms with his gayness.
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: I feel like this is like the
real rare occasion of a, of a shitty
like movie version friend zoning
of a female character in a movie.
Like, this is the kind of scene that they
only really write for women doing this
to men in most in most things because
it's like absolutely romantic tension.
He is saying things that cannot
be interpreted any way other than
like I am attracted to you and
have romantic feelings for you.
And she's like, well, then let's do this.
And he's like, uh, I
Emily: just, just kidding,
T. L.: yeah, I think, I think Steven's
character is so like female coded in
several ways too, because we see him
later when he can't get hold of Cheryl and
he's leaving her a voicemail saying like,
I don't want to complicate your life.
Just, call me back.
Let me know.
You're okay.
Like
Ben: Okay.
I am against Steven as a he him lesbian.
I am
T. L.: Exactly.
Ben: That reads That That tracks.
That reads.
T. L.: Yeah, it makes
perfectly good sense to me.
Jeremy: mean, if there were not constant
implications that he and Cheryl were
boning off screen, I'd say Steven Reed's
ace, but like, you know, it's like he's
clearly not into the women in the movie,
despite there being an implication that
he is into one of the women in the movie.
Ben: visibly not interested in
women, even in the scene where
he is having sex with a woman.
Emily: yeah, yeah, he's just
kind of confused the whole time.
Ben: I, I think that's what you get from
like, it's based on a Clive Barker story,
but he didn't write or direct a movie,
so you get these like, mixed messages.
Where like, the queerness is just
too baked in that Clive Barker
DNA, but like, this director
doesn't know what to do with him.
Jeremy: Yeah, I was, uh, I
was going to say earlier, I
feel like there's always this.
And, and I feel like this is the same
with the Midnight Meat Train, which
we haven't talked about, that there
is a central, straight relationship
Ben: Wait, is it called
Midnight Heat Train?
Jeremy: yeah,
Ben: Oh, incredible title, holy shit.
Jeremy: yeah There's a central, straight
relationship between a conflicted male
character and an extremely supportive
female character that doesn't matter.
Like, that is threatened by this,
Definitely not sexual relationship
or obsession between the straight
man and the other man in the story.
Ben: Look, it's the shounen anime rival
problem, where you can't introduce, like,
you can't And, look, it applies a lot in
fuckin you know, your shounen rivalry,
but this really applies to any genre.
You can't have a story We're the central
thrust of the plot, because the problem
is like, we're so trained to see the
romantic relationship as the primary
relationship in a person's life, we can
get into whether that's good or bad from a
whole cultural standpoint, not this show,
but you can't have a story that's all
about somebody being entirely emotionally
invested to the point of obsession, With
this other character, and then have a
third character come in and be like, Oh
yeah, but that's the one who I'm actually,
like, romantically interested in.
It's like, who gives a shit about Will
Graham's wife in season 3 of Hannibal?
Jeremy: yeah, I, I
Emily: forgot that she existed.
Jeremy: I,
Ben: Because you can't have a show
like that with Will Graham and Hannibal
and then be like, well yeah, they have
all this relationship, but then he
has his romantic needs satisfied by
this other person who doesn't matter.
No, he doesn't.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: I think this, this relationship,
this, this obsession relationship doesn't
Ben: better than most would,
Jeremy: I, I think, I think in this
case, Anne and Midnight Me train,
it doesn't work because like, Clive
Berger is, I guess, doing his level
best to write a man as straight.
And like, has no idea what to
do with the women in his life.
Like, the romantic interest
is just like, Uh, yeah, and
Ben: You don't need to be gay for that.
Jeremy: too, I guess.
Ben: Christopher Nolan movies.
Jeremy: So I feel like it's, it
creates two different problems here.
Uh, one being that the
relationship doesn't make sense.
And I think the only, like, At least
the only Pied Barker movie that
I've seen where it really works is
the one where it's a kinky straight
relationship, Hellraiser, where like,
that's a very queer coded relationship
that like, she is being drawn to, so
you know, he just, He just puts a woman
in that spot and lets her be tempted
away by the, the seductive evil man.
the, the sinister bisexual.
But like, I, I think,
Ben: fucking rules?
Jeremy: yeah, yeah, it's
great in Hellraiser.
And I think the problem that it
then creates in this movie is
that, uh, these female characters
are just absolutely paper thin.
And I think nowhere is that more
evident in the fact that, like,
the guys have these big, complex,
emotional, like, very specific problems.
And the girls two fears are based in,
I got raped and I'm not pretty enough.
And I was
Ben: yeah, yeah, those are, yeah,
those are, that's a, you hit
the nail exactly on the head.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: BoyGirl's pretty much entire thing
is, I'm a vegetarian because my dad,
my meat plant working dad raped me.
And the other is just
like, body image issues.
The character.
Emily: Yeah.
Even though she has all this
other shit going on that would
be, like, I can see the character.
So, uh, Gerard, Steven fumbles the bag
so bad, he leaves the camera behind,
so Quaid the next, he asks Quaid to
go get the camera, and he goes, Quaid
comes over, get the tape, and he tells
Abby that God damn it, she is sexy,
and, and they should have sex, and,
and he's actually drinking some, he
swears to God he's drinking some Respect
Women juice, so they go and have sex.
And Cheryl gets Gerard a new watch, and
they're into each other, aw, but Quaid
is getting more and more crazy, haunted
by the unidentified slasher that killed
his parents and upset about one of their
interviewees lying, and he attacks her,
Ben: I kept
Emily: the respect women juice,
Ben: I kept waiting for Steven's
watch or those alarms he set,
like, to be relevant or explained.
We don't even learn why he's setting,
like, all these alarms on his watch,
but it never, it never comes back up.
T. L.: he doesn't drive
because his brother died.
And so he stopped driving because
he died in a car accident.
And so he keeps the alarms on
so he doesn't miss the train.
But then he keeps
missing the train anyway.
Emily: Yeah,
T. L.: Because he's so wrapped
up in what Quaid's up to.
Emily: right, that's right.
Okay.
Thank you for reminding me that
because I've, that was one of those
things where I'm like, what do you,
T. L.: Yeah, they, they lampshade
it in dialogue and then just
pretend that they're not.
They never had that
conversation afterwards,
Ben: Yeah, well, that makes a big deal.
I have like indestructible this watch
is so I'm like, oh this watch is gonna
like fucking save his life somehow,
Emily: This isn't Strangers
in Fiction, sadly.
Um,
Ben: the axe comes down and
he just blocks it with his
Emily: the watch, yeah.
Ben: The axe just shatters
on this indestructible watch.
Emily: That would have been awesome.
All right, so anyway Quaid has gone crazy.
He attacks an interviewee, um, apparently
he did not swallow any respect women's
use, and then he destroys all their
equipment because he is an asshole,
but being an asshole isn't enough.
He needs more, so he kidnaps one of their
former interviewees and tortures him
with a specific thing that he's, that
the interviewee said he was scared about.
The
kid ends up in the hospital.
Ben: captured the I wish he kidnapped
and tortured the dickworm guy.
Emily: I don't.
Ben: That would have taken the movie
in a way in a I'm not even sure Darker,
but definitely stranger direction.
Jeremy: I mean,
Emily: loved to see Quaid trying
to figure out the logistics of
trying to figure, like, how do I,
Ben: Back
to the scene!
Try to figure out how to torture
dickworm guy and then just give up.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like,
that was his breaking point of,
like, maybe I'm not into this so
much, this is way too much effort.
Jeremy: I do think it is important
to mention that this guy's, Thing
that happened is he had a, a trauma
to his inner ear that caused him to
lose his hearing when he was young
for a certain period of time, which
he then got back, is like what scares
him is being isolated from the world
by not being able to hear things.
And how this is exploited is then he ends
up firing a gun next to his ear again.
Making him functionally deaf, again.
After going through rigging up a whole
Saw style trap and then deciding it was
stupid which I, I feel like was a shot
at Saw, but I don't, I don't know if
that was really where they were going
Ben: to have been a shot at Saw.
Also, dickworm's deal is that he was
in a pond and a worm went in his dick.
Did
Emily: was self explanatory.
Jeremy: I, so
Emily: don't need
Jeremy: I just wanted to, I wanted
to point out that like, Every, every
scary thing in this is a little,
it's again, a little problematic.
It's like, oh yes, the worst
thing that could possibly
happen to you as a disability.
like, you know, which I
get is real in real life.
Like that would be a horrible
thing to happen to you.
But also like this movie is sort of
projecting, yes, uh, getting a disability
is, is really the end of your life.
You should just go.
Either commit suicide or axe
T. L.: disfiguring birthmark.
Ben: I know we talked about, we talked
about the strip, like, you know, how
Quaid is seeing, like, hallucinations
of the Axe murderer at various places.
Did we get to the strip club yet?
Where he sees the strip club,
murder in the strip club?
Emily: kind of,
Jeremy: That's my favorite Usher
Emily: that.
Yeah,
Ben: what I, the one part I
just really want to talk to
you about that is Axe murderer
hallucinations sponsored by Corona.
Emily: that's true.
Big year for Corona.
Ben: murderer hallucination in the strip
club was so conspicuously being like
label facing the camera at all times.
Emily: It's
Jeremy: Well, you know, he came
into the strip club and the guy
at the door was like, You can have
any beer as long as it's a Corona.
Ben: Like I'm just imagining they're like,
Emily: only Vin
Ben: like at what point were they
like, okay, look, we have, we got
the Corona product placement money.
Where do we put this in?
Who was the one that suggested, like,
I think we let the ax murderer in the
strip club handle this product placement.
Emily: I mean
Jeremy: they spent all their special
effects money on having horrible wounds
appear on a naked woman in a strip club
in this film and um, like I said, this
is, they have certain priorities in this
film and that is You That is one of them.
Emily: okay, I will say that the axe
murderer, like, all of the framing of the
axe murderer stuff, like the, the thing
with the mom getting her head chopped
in half was actually really creative.
I really did appreciate
the cinematography there.
Ben: POV act shot going into
the mob is really well done.
That was a really creative shot.
Emily: yeah, like, a lot of that stuff is
with the axe on the stairs and everything,
like, I thought that was well done.
I did, I did dig some of
the, like, imagery, like, I
thought that that was cool.
I could have been, it could have been
on more people, more people of various
genders and positions in Quaid's life.
But it just, you know, it was pretty
monotonous in terms of, like, and
it'll come up later and I'll get into,
Ben: all especially seems like
it's leading to a big twist or an
explanation beyond what really happened.
And that twist never comes.
Emily: He also has, I mean, the only
mention that I had in the recap was
like, he is haunted by an unidentified
slasher and that is a little bit more,
has a lot more presence in the story
because he is he is seeing the slasher,
he's also having these memories where
things are mixed up and they actually
do show a memory of, well, not a memory,
but like a dream, a hallucination or
something of him as a child, In the room
with his dead parents, like, playing with
their guts or whatever, like, they're
the ovaries of Cherise Theron and, and
Shirley Theron in, um, Devil's Advocate.
But anyway,
Jeremy: Sorry, Tiana, you
wanted to say something there?
T. L.: Yeah, no, I think Quaid's
backstory is one of my, my very
favorite things about this movie.
I think it's part of why, like, I can't
put this movie down in my head because
my headcanon I don't think Quaid is a
reliable source of information about
anything, including his own history.
And like, we
Ben: you telling me traumatized six
year olds aren't reliable eyewitnesses?
Well,
T. L.: right?
But like, we see this flashback,
that features a number of things that
there is no way he could have possibly
witnessed because he was not physically
present for conversations that were
happening and for the murders, like
he was not even in the same room.
So we know he's reconstructing
some portion of his past.
And then later he's having these
flashbacks slash nightmares slash
delusions, and all of the details
get changed and muddied and whatever.
And I think it's plausible, if
not completely validated by the
the text, that Quaid doesn't even
really know what happened to him.
Like he's just kind of backfilling
with the worst possible things.
And so this like horror movie, mindless
slasher menacing him and like licking
blood off the axe, like all of that.
Did that really happen, Quid?
Or are you just, every time you return
to this memory, making it worse and
worse and worse, because not only did
you have this traumatic thing happen
to you, but you need that traumatic
thing to be uniquely terrible in a way
that no one else's trauma could be?
Emily: that's really, like, that's,
if there was more connective tissue
with that, And his actual like, you'll
turn, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I feel like that would
have been saying a lot more.
T. L.: Well, for sure, because like, you
see, like With how angry he gets, so when
he like assaults their interviewee, her
whole thing is that she's reeling out
the story of this childhood trauma that
she had and he calls bullshit on it and
it turns out that it was, she is lying
at least to some extent, like, she's
showing a scar that is not a real scar.
Ben: when she claims to be
fearless, that's what sets them off.
It's what sets them off.
T. L.: Because he, she makes this
claim that she went through something
so terrible that now she is no longer
afraid, like she almost died and
now she doesn't feel fear anymore.
And Quaid's not buying it.
And I think that that's because that
deeply harms this thing that he holds to
himself, that his pain is so unique and so
terrible that That's why he's like this,
because if that's not true, then he's just
an asshole for no reason, and I don't know
if he's reckoned with that, and I just
find that version of the movie that lives
in my head really deeply fascinating.
Emily: you're and you should, because
that is actually a really cool.
That's such a cool concept because it
brings up so many things like, trauma
Olympics and stuff like that, which is,
you know, something I think that movies.
Movies like this could really be
about and identify and like, and
I think are really valid in this,
this year of Common Era 2024.
But let me, let me finish
the recap so we don't get too
T. L.: We're almost there.
Emily: Yeah, we're almost there.
Okay, dude's an asshole.
Bad.
being an asshole isn't enough.
He tortures the kid.
He pops out his ears, like, I don't
know if firing a gun by somebody's
ear, like, makes their ear explode
like a tomato, but, does in this movie.
So that kid ends up in the hospital.
but at least he turned in the tape,
so, Stephen didn't fail the thesis.
Stephen got a B good for him.
Probably accurate, maybe
generous, but who knows?
Quaid then bullies Stephen to
let him apologize, and when
Stephen, does let him apologize.
Quaid almost kills them both by
driving drunk in the beater car that
he that he got to freak Steven out.
And then Quaid is
Ben: this isn't the Fight
Club soap on the hand scene.
Emily: that and the scene where
he is driving and he does the
same thing where he's like, I'm
just gonna let go of the wheel.
But yeah, that scene
is fully in Fight Club.
Quaid is like, But I said I was sorry.
I'm so genuine.
ladies in college, actually
anybody in college I know that
these dudes have a tendency to
swing hetero, but just watch out.
Someone tells you that, tries to
excuse their actions by saying
that they said they were sorry.
this is a red flag.
Just gonna put that right
there, like a little cocktail.
Anyway.
So, Steven goes back to the college, he
sees Abby, she's like, Hey, I forgive
you for that weird shit you did.
And he is like, Oh, thank you.
Good.
But they almost get a friendship ending,
but the cakes and rainbows are interrupted
by Quaid's insidious broadcast of Abby's
tape, which is shaming her for her
birthmark in a really, really boring
way that is like call out post 4chan.
com but it's still horrible.
Quaid is not a good artist.
Meanwhile, Cheryl has come over to
Quaid's house to get some of her
remaining equipment back and she
finds his secret room full of fucked
up paintings of slashed women.
And he shows up and he's like, Hey,
yeah, this is pretty fucked up, huh?
And she's like, uh, yeah.
And then he is like, let
me show you something.
Cutaway,
Jeremy: You think that's fucked up?
Emily: yeah, you very ominous cutaway.
So Gerard is, uh, it's just Gerard now.
Gerard is now trying to find Cheryl
who has been missing in action.
Meanwhile, Abby is so upset that
she tries to burn off her, burn
off her birthmark with bleach.
She ends up in the hospital and
Ben: not just Burnoff.
She, it is a combination scraping
off with a metal sponge plus bleach.
It is
Emily: totally
Ben: gnarly, it is horrific, it is
disturbing, and it is a c It is cra It is
crazy, and crazy is not the right word.
It is just gnarly.
It is a very Disturbing, horrifying scene
that may be the most ludicrous act of
self harm I've ever seen in a horror film.
T. L.: I have my list of reasons that I
love this movie for other, other reasons,
lower brow reasons is like top 10 movies
that have given me like a physical
response to something on the screen, that
scene, and the one that comes later, both
of them have a physical effect on me that
very few other horror movies ever have.
Seeing somebody sitting in a movie.
like bathtub full of bleach taking a
brillo pad to her arm for like a long take
that this goes on for it just oh full body
Ben: ingredient in the stew.
You know, the uh, the torture
porn is strong in this one.
T. L.: big
Emily: Honestly, like, if she could
have used that, like, that was that's
a lot of Like, that's the commitment
that I was hoping for in terms of,
like, doing that to Quaid or something.
Like, she was really committing to that.
And I'm, like You know, that's fucked up
and gratuitous, but, in terms of fucked
up imagery in a horror movie, yeah, okay,
but like, it didn't really make sense.
Ben: No, that's the
thing, like that level of
Emily: unless she was
Ben: like,
I understand that it's very traumatic,
but that level of, I'm gonna just scrub
the birthmark off my body, like, that is a
level I need, like, magic to be involved.
Emily: Yeah.
I
T. L.: especially
Ben: and illusions to justify this
elaborate and graphic an act of self harm.
Like, even if you're just going
for raw self harm, it's like, there
were, there were easier ways to go.
T. L.: well and frankly if she if she was
a person who would have done that given
her backstory and given like the amount
that this is traumatized her she would
have done this when she was like 12.
Right, like how
Jeremy: she didn't have the knowledge.
T. L.: to do that?
Emily: Yeah.
T. L.: Like if you're gonna do it.
Yes.
Ben: there's an age limit on when
you and do an x men can do the warren
worthington cuts off his own wings scene
Jeremy: you were, you mentioned like, that
Martyrs was only like a year from this and
I, I think this feels in some ways like
a very American attempt at new extremity,
like the, the sort of, you know, 2000s.
French horror movement of like, just
shit that happens on screen that you're
basically like, uh, no, no, thank you.
That, you know, martyrs is, is an
example of and that we've watched
other examples of on here when
it comes to new extremity stuff.
But I think like, that's what this feels
like, but it's also just so fucking dumb.
Emily: Yeah.
It's hard to really invest in it.
Ben: Yeah
Emily: so, yeah.
This is my rest and pepperonis, but
like, yeah, Abby's in the hospital
because she bathed in bleach and
scrubbed her, tried to scrub her
birthmark off with, steel wool.
Sitting in blea First, I just want
to say, I've had my hair bleached on
my head and I can't imagine what that
sensation would do to my nethers.
And that's where I'm
like, girl is committed.
Or she was on drugs.
Or
Ben: I mean, she definitely
scraped a nipple off, right?
Emily: Probably,
Jeremy: It didn't look like
she got that far across.
She just started with
the arm for some reason,
Emily: yeah, but I will say
thinking about it still makes my
body tense in all of my muscles.
Ben: again, like, the logic of it
all might be shaky, but the actual
just, just raw imagery of what
is on screen is some of the most
disturbing stuff I've ever seen.
Emily: yeah.
Um, also, I just want to know if
there are any hospitals and horror
movies that have functioning ballasts
for their fluorescent lights.
Like, I think that this is a
problem that needs to be addressed.
Um,
Jeremy: dirty like every
building in this movie is
Emily: yeah, it's,
Ben: Because it, it, it is obsessed with
the post, like, post industrial 90s look.
It wants to be in a fucking Nine
Inch Nails video so fucking badly.
It wants to be the house from Fight Club.
He
Emily: yeah, yeah.
It really does.
So, anyway Stephen goes to the hospital,
he is recognized by the kid that was
tortured by Quaid, who is now deaf,
the kid is mad about the torture, whoa,
go figure, and then he follows Gerard.
Because Gerard is going to Quaid's
house, and he's ready to ask,
excuse me, ask him a few questions.
But then Quaid uses his edgelord
asshole powers to gain the upper hand.
He ties up Gerard slash Steven, and shows
him a tape of Cheryl being tortured.
She is locked in a room for days
with nothing but a bucket, bottled
water, and the raw steak that
smelled just like her abusive father.
Gerard is aghast with abject horror and
Quaid assures him that, Oh, it's just all
part of the experiment, but he's fine.
She's fine.
She's not fine.
then, uh, Gerard Steven Graceway
manages to free himself when Quaid
is not looking and stalks him with
a knife and then they stand off.
But here comes the tortured kid
out of nowhere with the axe.
The axe is Steven.
What a twist.
And then Quaid shoots him.
Quaid then sits on Gerard and
watches his, the life leap his eyes.
It's underwhelming for him.
And then he just puts the
body in the other room where
he has been keeping Cheryl.
He leaves her his knife and is
like, why don't you eat him now?
And then leaves the end.
Goodbye.
It's the end of the
Ben: lied about letting her
go and giving her potatoes.
Emily: Yeah.
I mean, that was absolutely like
100 percent a line of shit when he
was like, he's like, I don't know.
She sat in a chair for a
while and I get like, she was.
I don't know, chair, she sat in a chair,
I swear to God, there was a chair and
it was very, very, very thin, I will say
Ben: Definitely, uh, a
The Bad Guy Wins movie.
Emily: yeah, and, if I had any like,
real interest in Quaid, like, if there
was the connective tissue that, that
connected Quaid's mania with his, Like
weird memory and like identifying with
being fucked up, like, you know, and
that's something that I go into college
in the 2000s, living through the 90s, the
late 90s and being into like all the goth
shit, there was a lot of this the trauma
Olympics going on and also this part of
your identity, which is part of like,
that was identified with, Being fucked up.
Like, when I was in middle school
I remember this kid saying to
me, So, are you like, one of
those self mutilating rockers?
And so spoilers, I was, but I
didn't really answer at the time.
Ben: I know what he means, but what
popped into my head was like, a
rocking chair covered in knives.
Emily: I mean, none of these kids
would have committed to that.
I sure didn't and that's fine.
And that, you know, I've we'll, we'll
get to that when we talk about Abby,
cause I, I really do want to talk about
that, but, um, yeah, so that's the movie.
I hope we all kind of, stayed.
aware of the, the, the,
where that thread leads.
But
Jeremy: Okay, so we have these questions
that we ask in every episode, right?
And there's this one that I feel
like I've touched on a little
bit, but guys, is Dread feminist?
Emily: No.
Ben: Particularly,
Emily: No.
It's not.
Next question.
Ben: yeah, you know, we get a lot of
that kind of sexualizing violence towards
women, you know, the dancer being cut up
in the strip club Abby being cut in half
during like, you know, a vision of Abby
being cut in half during a sex scene.
So beyond the, Pretty stock
and unfortunate backstories
that our two female leads have.
This movie also is real into just like
sexualizing violence against women.
T. L.: Well, and double so, because you
also have the Freudian angle, right?
Because the clear implication is not just
that Quaid clearly hates women, because
whenever he's not, you know, flirting with
Ben: even before this becomes torture
porn, the number of just assaults and
violence Quade commits against women,
even while they're still just doing
a college psychological film thesis.
T. L.: I mean, like, canonically, he
spends all of his time at the strip club.
He hires strippers to model for him,
nudes, so that he can paint them.
Um, And then claims dismissively
that after he finishes painting
it, that he trashes it.
Um, we find out later that what
that means is that he then goes
back and paints like gore into it.
And all of that is in service of
repeatedly recreating his mother's murder.
And so he has this image in his mind
of his mom having been murdered and
mutilated in this horrifying fashion.
Jeremy: Well, fully
T. L.: constantly repeating that.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Yeah, his mother is fully
clothed when she is murdered in
all of his flashbacks and memories,
but he really seems to want to
recreate it on a naked female body.
Emily: Yeah.
With very spherical breasts.
Very booby breasts.
T. L.: It's very Freudian, I feel.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: But the boobs boobed boobily.
Emily: They sure did.
Jeremy: yeah, I, uh, man, I really
can't say enough just how, like,
sophomore writing project, like, the
women's personifications in this,
this movie are of, like, she's so
pretty and she doesn't even know it.
And also, she is attractive, I guess.
She is the love interest.
Like, I, I really just, the, the fact
that like, they are both given these
elaborate backstories of, of trauma
in their families that have nothing
to do, well, I mean, debatable,
I guess, with Quaid, whether they
have anything to do with sex or not.
But like, This specifically the two
female characters are given like
our great fears are rape and not
being pretty enough It's like whoa
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: Bring bring back the the
actress with the bullshit story.
I just
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: yeah, think at some point that
hit me that that's what they were doing
and I was like, oh, guys, come on.
I feel like, know, if you need somebody
else in that editing bay or in the
writing or something, um, I haven't
read the Clive Barker short story.
I don't know how much of that is
directly from the short story.
T. L.: Yeah, I can speak to that.
I just re read it recently
and prepped for this.
so, a couple things that are interesting
about the Clive Barker story.
One, it's set in 1984, and
it was written in 1984.
Um, and it only has three characters.
So, in the story, you only
have Steve, Quaid, and Cheryl.
So, Abby and Josh, I think it's
the other guy's name don't exist.
And Steve and Josh are
like the same person.
And so his tragic backstory
is the whole deafness thing.
And so the way the story plays out
is he meets Quaid and they, you know,
talk philosophy all the time and the,
the homoeroticism is off the charts,
but of course no one acts on it.
And Quaid is in a relationship
with Cheryl, kind of, that seems
to be mostly built off of this,
like, mutual animosity and they
argue with each other all the time.
And then Cheryl just disappears
and Stephen's like, okay, well,
I guess she fucked off then.
And then later he comes over
to Quaid's like, hey, you want
to see something messed up?
And shows him the video, or it's a
series of still photos of the the
torture of Cheryl insisted he let
her go and then he tortures, um,
Ben: a weird scene.
I like, I didn't fully understand
because there's a scene where Quaid
attacks, the interviewee who's lying
and Cheryl seems to put equal blame
on Steven, despite Steven immediately
trying to jump in and stop Quaid and
getting between like Quaid at every turn.
Like, so I'm not sure what Steven
was supposed to have done in this
Jeremy: I feel like there's a
line missing in that, where she's
like, who is this psychopath?
What did you get me involved in?
Um, when it comes to Quaid, because
it's just like, Uh, yeah, it doesn't, it
doesn't make sense the way that she reacts
to Steven unless she has no idea who Quaid
is and just got pulled into this shit.
But I, I, it's really interesting,
Ben: at this point she's seen
Quaid just casually assault Steven
even, and she's still stuck around.
So it's like, I, I feel like they
needed the scene to end in a way where
the audience can go like, Oh, she's
so mad at Steven, she's just ignoring
him for days on, like, at a time.
But, it didn't make sense how she
got mad at Steven, to pull that off.
Jeremy: so the the rape meat
association thing, that is, is that
from the
T. L.: a part of the text at all.
It is completely left ambiguous
why she's so disgusted by me.
Like she is a vegetarian, that is
her thing but we never hear any part
of her backstory, that is there.
completely not part of the original text.
Also, the ending is flipped.
So in the original text the Stephen
slash Josh character, after having been
deafened does get revenge on Quaid.
So the, the end of that is Quaid
dying by axe, which is great.
However, Unfortunately the downside
is that by being deafened, the Steven
character becomes so self infantilized
and also goes completely crazy.
And so that's super not great
in a different direction.
so he's just completely lost his marbles
and has gone like full on killer clown
by the end of the story, which is weird.
Emily: mm,
T. L.: Um, I don't, I
don't know what Clive was
Jeremy: true to Clive Barker, but
Yeah, I, I think it is important,
it sounds like, to know, like, the
really problematic stuff as far as
the distinct lack of feminism or
problematic attributes of these female
characters is all added for the movie.
Ben: well, we get one woman
enjoying a lap dance at the strip
club, so, hey, lesbian content.
Jeremy: I
Emily: I, I also like how Quaid
is considered to be such a bad
boy because he likes cunnilingus,
like, whoa, what is this?
This dude will happily perform
cunnilingus on a woman, not just
that, a woman who has cunnilingus.
Skin thing that is
different from other people.
Ben: That is his move, like, at
multiple points we do see Quaid
going down on women, like, that,
that does seem to be his move.
Which normally I wouldn't,
which, we always support here in
Progressively Horrified, but not
the, everything else Quaid does.
Emily: Yeah.
Like I, but I just want to say right
Ben: the Cunnilingus part do we support.
Emily: we do not want to support any
conception of the f Well, or just,
well, we do support some conception.
There's some, some people out here
that do good conception, Jeremy.
Thank you.
but we, I should say we do not support
the misconception that the active kind
of lingus is only possible from bad boys.
Do I have to re restructure
that grammatically?
I think I might have to
restructure that grammatically.
Jeremy: know, good boys do cunnilingus
too, that's what you're saying?
Emily: Yeah.
Good
Jeremy: Also good and bad women, uh, so,
non binary people of all stripes can and
should, where appropriate and desired
by their partner, perform cunnilingus.
Emily: yeah, and you don't
have to be extra to do it.
That's what I'm saying.
It's normal.
Jeremy: You can do it extra if
they are really into it, but
Emily: can Um,
Ben: and you should.
Emily: there's a whole Key and
Peele sketch about it that's
actually very educational.
So.
Jeremy: feel like we should end
every episode of this podcast.
Uh, speaking,
Ben: more about Cunnilingus?
Watch Key Peele!
Emily: Get a peach and practice.
Ben: am done with that being our
episode ender from now on every week.
Emily: Just get a peach and practice.
Ben: Yes.
Emily: I, if that means that Jordan
Ben: Come back next week
on Call Me By Your Name!
Jeremy: and remember,
practice more cunnilingus.
Emily: yeah, Jordan Peele
notices us because we're,
Jeremy: We've covered everything he's ever
Ben: if you told me Jordan Peele was
aware of this podcast, holy shit.
Emily: I, um, would not.
Yes.
Jeremy: Okay, uh, speaking of
nutting, let's talk about the
LGBTQ content in this movie.
Ben: Again, we talked a lot about just
the inherent homoeroticism that you cannot
escape because it is a Clive Barker story
and just how gay these not gay boys are.
Emily: they're absolutely in love,
and their only way that the movie
really works is if you lean into that.
Jeremy: the gayness in
this movie is like air.
You can't see it, but it's all around you.
Like,
Ben: Yes.
T. L.: To the point,
Ben: said.
T. L.: I think one of my other favorite
pieces of simultaneous yikes on a bike,
red flags, and also queer text is not
only is Quaid trying to get a terror rise
out of Steven by driving scary in a car,
Quaid, who sleeps on a mattress on the
floor in his condemned looking house,
Spends like 1, 200 buying a car that is
an exact replica of the car that Stephen's
brother died in to surprise him with it.
Which is just absolutely bonkers
stalker boyfriend behavior.
Like, hey, I heard that your brother died
in this model of car, so I bought you one.
I met you like two weeks
ago, but here's your new car.
Like, what?
Jeremy: I just met you and this is
crazy.
Emily: this is, this is crazy, I
remember when he unveiled it and he
called it therapy, and I'm like, Okay,
you know, I get it, but also, like,
this is, you're doing this to help him.
T. L.: I
Emily: can you guys get married, or
at least just, like, go to a th maybe
you should go to a couple's therapist,
and so you get this shit worked out.
T. L.: I also love that Stephen's response
to that is, Thanks, I guess I'll take it.
Cool.
Emily: yeah.
Thanks, I
T. L.: so good.
You should reject this gift, right?
Like, that's, that's the, like, correct
response to that, but it's like,
okay, it's not gonna affect me at all.
I'm not having an emotional
response to this, but yeah,
I'll take a free car, sure.
Jeremy: Yeah, but his reaction seems
to be like, I could use something
to drive my girlfriend to dates on.
Like,
Emily: yeah.
Jeremy: even colder if you are
reading this relationship as queer,
which he's like, I bought you an
elaborate gift, and Stephen is like,
great, my girlfriend will love it.
That's what really sets
him over the edge, I
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: Quaid isn't, Quaid isn't
trying to kill anybody until the point
that, like, Steven decides to take
his girlfriend out for a date on, in
the car that Quaid bought for him.
Emily: This is absolutely the blockbuster,
no homo, edited version of this story.
Like, all the violence is still there,
because we're in America, and, and looking
at guts is our God given right, just like
on the dollar bill, it says, it says so.
But, and in the Pledge of Allegiance.
But, you can't have two dudes making
eyes at each other in a way that
is, uh, hap like, where they touch.
They can't touch.
No touching.
They do make eyes at each other
in the movie, so I can't say that
they're, they're not allowed to do
that, because they absolutely do that.
Jeremy: Very straight eyes at each other.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, they're like,
I'm really into you, platonically.
Let's get platonic married
Jeremy: Bro, let's fuck.
Emily: Yeah, bro.
I
Jeremy: not
Ben: need to have a separate letterbox
to count, like, of just like, Movies
where the plot could have been solved
if a character had gotten a good dickin
Emily: mean, I, we
Ben: just be this, it
might be just this movie.
Emily: No, I think that that's,
that's there's a few things.
Jeremy: I mean, the plot of Hellboy
is literally summing, summoning demons
so you can get a good dickin Like,
Ben: I mean, there's this
Jeremy: not Hellboy, Hellraiser.
Sorry,
Emily: yeah, I was like, wait,
T. L.: I don't remember that
plot now,
Jeremy: let me,
Ben: I, I
Jeremy: let me, hold on,
let me do that one clean.
Ben: plan at
Jeremy: that one clean.
The plot of Hellraiser is literally
doing black magic and summoning demons
so that you can get a good dicking.
Emily: yeah we'll get the
Hellboy version of that in,
like, at the end of the podcast.
Yeah, so,
Jeremy: That's why nobody, that's
why nobody liked the remix.
Emily: the remake, well,
no, she had, her problem
Jeremy: Hellboy, not of Hellraiser.
Emily: oh, yes.
I was like, there was so
much dicking in the remake of
Jeremy: Oh no, there's plenty of, there's
plenty of dicking in the Hellraiser
Emily: Oh my god.
Ben: Hellraiser without some good dickin
Emily: Yeah, for real.
Jeremy: Hey guys, how does this movie
deal with race and social justice?
Emily: It done it.
There is one black character
that they, that they interview,
and I don't think his deep fears
have anything to do with racism.
Ben: And then I think there's
an Asian guy who's like, you
got a B plus on your thesis.
Which is how we learned that Quaid
handed in the thesis for them.
Emily: that's right.
That's right.
Ben: Which means he was the one who
ended up editing the footage together!
So I'm not sure what Cheryl
contributed to the project in
Emily: I think, I think there was
some edited footage together that she
had done, and then he sent that in.
And I'm, I'm pretty sure this film
professor is like, sure, whatever.
So, you know, Steven Soderbergh,
cool, whatever, fine.
Just get out
Ben: Well, I think it was a reflection
on the quality of the rest of the
class that they got a B on this
unfinished psychological study.
T. L.: Well, and I think that's.
Another interesting point that
also has haunted me every time
I watch this movie is we have no
idea what Quaid actually turned in.
So for all we know, he didn't even turn
in this study that they were doing.
He could have turned in literally anything
because we never like pick that up.
And Steven
Ben: just the video of him assaulting
that last person and they somehow
T. L.: 100 percent could have been.
Emily: they're like, good effects, B plus.
Ben: Yeah.
T. L.: Steven is in no way interested
in pursuing, like, that at all, like,
he doesn't seem curious in any way about
what is happening with his academics.
So I like to pretend that Quaid just
turned in some completely unrelated,
like, whatever to get the grade out.
Jeremy: For Cheryl's part, at least she
wanted to get the original stuff back.
She wanted to get the hard
drive and everything, which is
how she ended up in a basement.
And I think, like,
Ben: just a DVD of the movie 7.
Jeremy: the wildest thing about this,
I think, and maybe the, a tribute to it
having been written in 1984, is, that
nobody in this movie has ever seen a
horror movie in their lives, that this,
that this woman sneaks into the house
of a psychopath to get her hard drive,
finds his dungeon, and is like it.
Let me wander around here for a bit.
Pearson pull up and is like,
Well, I guess I'll just stand here
and wait for him to come down.
Um, Nothing bad will happen if I
confront him about what's going on here.
And like, The just series of boggling
decisions on her part to just not get
the fuck out of there is, is wild to me
and I think it's not, it should not be
possible for a person living in 2009.
Emily: Yeah, I mean, maybe, like, she
didn't like looking at meat either,
and then she doesn't, and then she's
like, wow, a movie where there's
people, there's like, blood in it?
She didn't seem that naive, though.
Like, if anything, I feel like she
was so over it, and she was, she had
clocks quayed as the edgelord that
he is, that she's like, yeah, you,
you do cool paintings, oh my god,
they're naked, and also, like, come on.
Uh, yeah, this, yeah.
Jeremy: gotta be a point where you're
just like, Yeah, none of that shit was
worth going back to this dude's house.
You just gotta, sometimes you gotta
write off a person in your life as just
being enough of an asshole that you might
lose some other shit in the process.
Ben: The amount of second locations that
Quaid is able to convince people to go to.
Emily: Yeah, I feel like
that's his superpower, really.
Is that, like, he is all
about the second location and
people just take him up on it.
T. L.: There's a couple things
that are that are so interesting
to unpack about the way that
that whole interaction goes down.
I don't know that they make any
sense, but they, they fascinate me.
So we early on had seen Quaid, like the,
the, the prologue of the movie almost,
is Quaid delivering this monologue to the
camera of, you know, I, I think you're
not being honest with me or whatever.
And then we return, we have that
scene again, we get his full
monologue and we realize that he is.
being interviewed by the camera.
The camera is turned off and
there is no one interviewing him.
The person who is asking him, what are
you afraid of, is not a real person.
There's no one there that he's talking to.
And then Steve and Cheryl show back up.
So he is so desperate to talk about
his fear and his story that he's
monologuing to no one about it.
So when Cheryl shows up to retrieve
her camera equipment You know, they
have this conversation about, hey,
like, what's up with all of the
creepy murder art in your basement?
He asks her, ask me,
like, what did he say?
It was something like ask me what I want.
And he won't let her go
until she's like, okay.
What do you want?
And that's when he's like, I want to
take it to the next level and then jump
cut and we find out what that meant.
But I think he's so desperate at every
turn to just be this like special
traumatized edge lord that he's
making that everyone else's problem.
And I think it's also relevant
it's, it's not a raw steak.
It's well cooked, lightly salted.
And so he locks her in this room
with this well cooked, salted,
very expensive porterhouse steak.
This perfectly fine cut of meat on a plate
on the floor in the murder torture room.
And she won't eat it.
And it's Is she not eating it because
of the trauma and the smell and she
just can't bring herself to do it?
Or is she not eating it because,
dude, you're being a dick.
I'm not gonna do
Ben: I felt like
T. L.: wait you out.
Ben: I feel like it was
more that motivation than
like the particular trauma.
Emily: That's
true.
T. L.: you wait, and she tries
everything to get out of the room,
and I think there's this slow dawning
horror that she starts to realize of,
wait a second, this guy isn't just an
edgelord that, I've been rolling my eyes
about, but it's ultimately harmless.
Like, yeah, all right.
He's kind of abusive.
He's kind of a dick.
But he's basically fine.
Two, no, he's locked me
in here forever, maybe.
And I think that is
weirdly realistic, almost?
Like, I don't know.
There's just something to that, because by
the point you realize that, you're like,
Whether or not I eat this increasingly
rancid steak, is he gonna let me out?
Is it worth trying to eat the
increasingly rancid steak to
see if he'll hold me to it?
Like, that set of debates
that you're wandering through?
What I don't know is how she manages
to get so fucking dirty in a empty
room inside of a house because she is
gnarly by the end of the like seven
days that she's been in that room.
I don't know where all of that is
coming from, probably don't want to
know, but that has always baffled me.
Like I get aesthetically why it looks
the way that it does, but like it looks
like she's been locked in the wilderness
for a week, not some dude's basement.
Emily: Yeah.
T. L.: that, but
Ben: Yeah, like dirt and mud just
appear out of nowhere in that room.
Emily: well, there's, she does have a
bucket where she makes her own dirt.
So, you know, that's, that's what
begs the question, which is terrible.
And I don't want to think about it,
but you know, she's also like eating
fucking liquid steak that is full
of maggots
T. L.: the most disgusting steak I have,
like, God, that sequence is the other
thing in this movie that just viscerally
every time I watch it makes me like, yeah,
maybe I don't want to eat meat either.
Emily: Yeah.
and there is something really,
something to say there, what you said
about, like, when the edgelord becomes
the actual psycho, because there
is that, and that is something that
is a valid subject of conversation.
And again, right now, as it was then,
you know, 4chan shit earlier or whatever,
and, a lot of the times people will.
Roll their eyes at these kids or be like,
you're these people and be like, that's
cute, like you think you're such you
think you're Tyler Durden or whatever.
You think you're this, like, you
think you're Hannibal Lecter and then
they actually start doing crazy shit.
And then then you just are so, like,
shocked that they went that far with it.
And, you know, what do
you do in that situation?
I feel like that that's a, that's
a valid subject to bring up.
And I think that that little microcosm
of, of story that you've described
there, Is a really cool idea that I think
the movie could have also capitalized
on if they focus on it more, you
Jeremy: I mean, it sounds like
the story was more focused on it.
It sounds like all of the stuff
that they added to make it long
enough to make it a movie ultimately
detracted from it and made it worse.
Which is an unfortunate thing to say.
Yeah, I do like, I do think that
concept of, of being locked in the
cell and uh, sort of underestimating
which Killian Murphy character it
Emily: ha ha ha!
Jeremy: that cell, like, like, oh no,
it was, he was Scarecrow all along.
How could I not have seen this coming?
Emily: At least with Cillian Murphy,
I would have been like, well,
at least I got to look at him.
You know, at least he was the last good
thing that I saw before this torture.
Jeremy: It's, Sean Evans, I
feel like as an actor is sort
of doing his damnedest in this.
Um, but like, I just feel like that
he's, he's kind of miscast in it.
That like, you don't look at this
guy and be like, I can see why you
would be so compelled by this person.
And some of that also is the dialogue.
I feel like he's very sort
of generically edgelordy.
Emily: When they first show him.
See, they have that light in the alleyway,
like, he's in that New Line Cinema movie
that they first show him, and he's, like,
he's really well lit, and he almost has
kind of, like, a young Willem Dafoe thing
going on, and then every other shot is
completely gone, like, I almost didn't
recognize that he was the same character
after that, and then I'm like, oh,
Jeremy: the lighting in this
movie is kind of gnarly.
It's not good.
It's, it's sort of like everything looks
kind of overexposed and some of that is
like a thing from the time from 2009.
We, we overexposed a lot of things
and lit things poorly just as a style.
Emily: Bloom, baby.
Jeremy: yeah,
Ben: Look, this was
the same year we got J.
J.
Abrams first Star Trek movie
and all its lens flare.
Emily: yeah.
those were, that was very specific though.
That was like, we're gonna put
a grid over this screen made
out of lens flares and you're
Ben: Honestly, as much as it gets
made fun of, I think it actually
really worked for that first movie.
Jeremy: Oh yeah.
Ben: I'm a big fan of that
first Star Trek, of that first
movie, Star Trek movie he did.
Jeremy: I was gonna ask about class
in this movie, but I think, like, it
doesn't, the class doesn't make any sense
like, it's totally disregarded because
the movie's completely unconcerned with
it, also, you know, it feels transposed
from Britain into wherever in the U.
S.
it's supposed to take place in a way
that, like, yeah, I don't know, I don't
know if that's why everything is so old
in this movie because it's supposed to
be in Britain but yeah, it doesn't, I
don't think it plays in and I think it's
actively ignored in ways, um, that, uh,
Emily: the class of, of the,
of the characters and the
classes they are taking.
are actively ignored.
Jeremy: yeah, I do know, Emily, you,
you said you wanted to talk a little
bit about the, uh, self harm stuff
as far as like physical and mental
disabilities, stuff like that, right?
Emily: Yeah, like, there's a lot there
I think you kind of, tied it up nicely,
actually, and it's interesting to
watch in this day and age of people
using Vitiligo as, like, a cool
character trait in character design.
Because her, birthmark condition is
very, very similar and extensive.
um,
Jeremy: Going through three to
five hours of makeup every day she
was on set to get this birthmark.
Emily: yeah, as someone who has gone
through a lot of struggle about skin.
Like I have dermatillomania
and I have keratosis polaris
and all this kind of stuff.
There were times when I was
a teenager that I was just
like, get this shit off of me.
But it was not like, the
gratuitousness of that.
And also like, The aesthetic
quality uh, I feel like.
the self harm, I mean, it is gratuitous.
It does not have any sort of
meaning or reflection on actual,
the actual struggle with appearance
because of how gratuitous it is.
And I'm not saying that
this movie is really bad.
I mean, it's, it's not great.
But I, I think that it, it's
interesting to me to see what.
Movies, whether they be horror
movies or dramas or what will
qualify as quote unquote disfiguring
and the kind of,
Jeremy: I feel like, I think this
is on the same line of what you're
saying that there is very much a a
calculation that is going on in the
director's head of like, What's a thing
that we can give her where she looks
different but also is still hot naked?
Like, that seems very calculated in this.
Yeah.
Ben: they had there was a very fine
line that they were aiming towards.
The word fuckable was used in
that meeting way too many times.
Emily: yeah, yeah, the fact that they
had that and then they went somewhere
so grotesque to have her steal wool
her skin off in a bath of bleach,
there could have been a little bit
more balance there is what I'm saying.
And, you know, and it's not I mean,
we watched Queen of Black Magic,
which had a sequence where, uh, one
of the characters who was very, very
self conscious about her weight and
eating, she had an eating disorder.
Ben: what was in my head when I'm like, I
need magic to justify this sponge scene.
Emily: Yeah, yeah, and, but the way
that that, like, weird, magical torture
horror was going on felt informed
and it felt like it was coming from a
place where, you know, like, how many
of us have looked in the mirror and
thought, if I could just, like, change
Jeremy: she seems surprised in that movie.
She's like, Oh, I can just,
cut it off and it's fine.
Uh, and like she's seeing something
different than what we're seeing and
the reveal of that is much, much more,
uh, wild than, than, uh, for her to
like be doing this to herself, knowing
full well what she is doing to herself.
Emily: yeah,
T. L.: I think there's a couple things
that are kind of interesting in the way
that it plays out, because if, like, we
know that she has some kind of friendship
or ongoing relationship with Steven, the
Emily: mm hmm,
T. L.: previous to the movie, like,
they know each other, and you kind of
get the vibe from him that, they've
got this relationship that he doesn't
want to mess up by making it more, you
know, whatever, like he loves her like a
sister, whatever, like he's friend zoned
her in that way, like we talked about.
Emily: yeah,
T. L.: So that Quaid targets her
specifically and asks her to model for
him, knowing that she's got the self
consciousness and then has sex with her
feels like a power play against Steven.
Like, I think he's just doing this.
Emily: oh yeah,
T. L.: to her for Steven.
She is completely a non entity
in Quaid's, like, accounting.
And
Jeremy: the refrigerator.
T. L.: the video goes live and, you
know, the whole school is seeing
this, I think, I, I do appreciate
that there is no one who is laughing.
There's no one at this
reveal who is teasing her.
There's no evidence at any part in
this movie that anyone but Abby is
bothered by the way that Abby looks.
Emily: yeah,
T. L.: And I think part of the biggest
betrayal is the, not that, okay,
now everyone on campus has not only
seen the full extent of this, you
know, disfiguring birthmark that I'm
ashamed of, but has also seen me naked
and has heard me talking about how
ashamed I am of being naked right now.
But also knowing that that footage
only exists because Stephen did
not destroy it, shared it with
his buddy, who is now essentially
revenge porned her for no reason.
She has done nothing.
And so like everybody has
betrayed her at that point.
And so I wonder to what extent is her
response, the self loathing of this
feeling versus just an expression of
all of that other pain of the betrayal,
And especially because, like, okay, she
goes back to her dorm room where Steven
doesn't know she lives, question mark?
He's like, oh no, where
did Abby disappear to?
And then just lets it go,
like, eh, she's probably fine.
Until, like, later?
He finally like runs back to her dorm
room to catch her when she's bleeding
out in the hallway for some reason.
Like, why did you not
go check at any point?
Like, what are you doing, bro?
So I, I don't know, like, is there a
version of this circumstance where she's
just like, I think, not that this is
more feminist, this is worse, but I think
her motive is I want to be with Steve.
Steve won't be with me because
he doesn't think I'm pretty
Emily: Yeah.
T. L.: he's betrayed me because I'm not
pretty enough like I think it's more
tied up in that than her own innate
body issues, if that makes sense, which
is worse, but slightly more logical.
context?
Jeremy: and
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: say just for for anybody
listening out there the point in
This conversation where you say hey,
I don't feel that way about you is
the point where the person starts
stripping Not the point where they're
already naked standing in front of you
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: out for a
Jeremy: fucking foul.
Um,
Ben: he let her strip, made out for a
bit, and was then like, Mmm, friend zone.
Emily: God.
Ben: My heart belongs to another.
Jeremy: yeah, cause I mean, if anything,
that really just confirms that person's
fears at that point that, you know,
that you, you don't, uh, you don't find
them attractive because of something
about them physically whether it's at
that point the birthmark or that I guess
they're just a bad kisser, I don't know.
But yeah, that was a particularly
fucked up move for our
protagonist to make, I felt like.
Emily: Yeah.
T. L.: that at no point does he
just tell her straight up, Oh
yeah, I'm seeing Cheryl right now.
Like, why is he so secretive about that?
There's no reason
Ben: Well, I think at that point
in the movie, if he had said, I'm
seeing, I like Cheryl, they knew the
audience's reaction would be, who?
Emily: I mean, that was,
that was my reaction.
For real though.
Ben: I'm like, her?
He, he's using female pronouns.
Okay.
Emily: yeah,
Ben: that's right, but okay.
Sure.
Movie.
Jeremy: it's like Arrested Development.
Her?
Ben: Yeah.
Jeremy: Um, yeah, and Cheryl's very
forgettable through the first, at least
third of this movie, if not two thirds
of this movie, other than, until,
until she is forced to give a birth.
Just a really, truly rough monologue
about the reason she doesn't like me
being her, raped by her own father.
Yeah, I, ugh, God.
T. L.: is also baffling that she
brings it up when and how she does,
because the reason why she gives this
confession is because she was breaking
up the fight between Steven and Quaid.
Emily: That's
T. L.: Like, they're fighting because
Quaid has just destroyed Steven's watch.
It's like, you live by your watch?
You're afraid to live?
Like, he's going, like, Dark
Manic Pixie Dream Girl on him.
Emily: Yes.
T. L.: she jumps in to stop them
from fighting and is like, I
wanna, I wanna turn on the camera.
Like, I wanna do my thing.
Like, really?
That's your move?
And those are the vibes in
which you're going to get super,
Jeremy: guys, guys, stop
fighting, I was raped as a child.
Emily: Yeah.
T. L.: Completely bonkers.
Emily: I mean, yeah.
Like, I guess it, it worked.
It kept them from, from
fighting each other.
Cause they're like, but also like.
It is a very, very odd decision
to be like, okay, listen, I'm
going to tell you about my fear.
Jeremy: a general problem with
the movie of like, feeling like
we need to get to this next thing
so somebody has to do a thing now.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeremy: they don't all
quite chain together.
So, I guess that leads to
our final question here is,
uh, do we recommend this one?
Should people go check this movie out?
I
Ben: I mean, if you're, it,
Jeremy: a lot of thousand
yard stairs when I ask
Ben: Yeah, yeah, I mean, like we said,
there's some stuff this movie does
well some interesting stuff here, it's
not the worst, but, there's a lot of
other ways, there's probably a lot of
other movies I'd recommend you watch
on a Friday evening before popping
this one, but if you've already seen
all of those other movies already.
Then yeah, pop this one on.
Emily: If you're hanging out with TL or
somebody like TL who has a really cool,
like head Canon, they can supply that.
Absolutely.
Ben: If you got a buddy who is ignoring
the red flags about the man and his life,
maybe sit them down and show him this.
Emily: oh yeah, that's,
that's, there you go.
That is the context where you're
like, Hey, uh, I'm gonna show you this
interesting philosophical horror movie.
But it's not actually that philosophical.
Your, your partner just did this to you.
They just killed your watch.
Let's think about that for a minute.
And they were
T. L.: I, I will say, I I unironically
do love this movie for all of its
flaws, and I think part of it is
because the version of it that
lives in my head is really good.
Which means that I inflict this movie
on many people, so I will recommend this
film with the caveat that if you go watch
it and then you want to call me and talk
to me about it for several hours, Cool.
That's, that's my go to move.
Emily: yeah.
As someone who does that same thing with
Devilman, You know, like, for real, I
mean, the terms of plot, the Devilman
OVAs have maybe just as much, but they
also have a bunch of crazy shit going
on where, you know, and it's anime, so
you're like, oh, cool, there's boobies and
explosions, and, awesome, and it's gay,
and it's also, like, textually gay, but
That subtext, I can understand how that
would carry you through, and to a new day.
But yeah, other than that you know,
watch Sex, Lies, and Videotape.
Jeremy: yeah, I, I honestly, I wouldn't
recommend it if it were the level of, of
good it is and a little more harmless , I
would, I would feel better about it.
But the, like, subjecting people to the
the e the eating of rancid meat and the
story, you know, the story about father
raping her and all that is just like.
it doesn't pass the cost value
analysis for
Ben: There's some rough scenes
to get through in this movie.
There, there, this is not an easy watchin
Emily: Yeah, well, I, I think that the
fact that it doesn't really commit to
one of those things, like, is it Saw?
Is it Nightmare on Elm Street?
Is it Sex, Lies, and Videotape?
Is it, you know, Clive Fight Club?
Is it Clive Barker being gay?
Bless his heart.
Ben: The answer is yes, it's
always Clive Barker being gay.
Emily: yeah, but like, it
doesn't commit to that.
Like, it doesn't commit to the gay.
It doesn't commit to all of these
cool little elements that are there.
So, like, this is a garden that just
needs a little fertilizer and some
of us see that and they're like, I'm
gonna take that and it's mine now, and
that's the long and the short of it,
Ben: In terms of recommendations, uh,
I recommend The Work of David Fincher.
Y'all know the ones?
Seven, Zodiac, Gone Girl, and Mindhunter.
Emily: Um,
Ben: Not, not Alien 3.
Not, not that one.
The, uh, the, the ones that
I, the ones that pop in your
head when I say David Fincher.
Emily: not Fight Club though,
because it's too close.
Ben: Honestly, yeah.
Emily: I've mentioned Sex, Lies,
and Videotape multiple times.
Um, it's a very, it's a thriller.
It's very different.
There's no like, you know, Saw element
to it, but it does have young James
Spader and, and he's a little prick
in it, which is like my favorite James
Spader, like if young James Spader
was Quaid, I'd be like, let's go.
I'll
Ben: Oh, God, that's what this
movie needed was like, That
kind of, that level of charisma.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: James Fader is,
is Quaid in real life.
So,
Emily: that's
Ben: Oh no.
Emily: I didn't know that.
Jeremy: nah.
Emily: Are you, are you talking
about the list or whatever?
Ben: the, is this just the blacklist?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Emily: Okay, I was
Ben: I thought you were gonna,
yeah, I thought you, are you gonna
like reveal that James Spader has
actually done some really fucked up
Emily: yeah, I'm like, is, are
Jeremy: I don't know,
man.
Ben: James Spader, is
James Spader cancelled?
Emily: I would be really upset.
I mean, he stopped being, like, I mean,
he was not, he stopped being Twink, and
you know, that happens to the best of us.
Ben: is the blacklist still going on?
No, the blacklist ended in 2023.
Emily: well, we just missed it.
Jeremy: did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?
T. L.: if for some reason the idea of
unrelenting and miserable to watch torture
appeals to you Martyrs 100 percent is
this movie, but better in a lot of ways.
And in a similar vein, I would also,
like, if you just want to make a theme
night of it, pair it off with Saint
Maude, um, which is a whole set of
films of trying to find meaning in
misery where there is none, and how
futile and cruel that journey is.
Just make it a whole theme night for that.
That would be my recommendation.
Jeremy: yeah, speaking of,
Emily: awesome.
Jeremy: speaking of making it a
theme night, my recommendation, uh,
is, you know, if, If you enjoyed
this movie and want to see just
sort of a a slightly better one, uh,
that has a lot of the same vibes.
I mentioned the Midnight Meat Train.
It is a little I mean,
it is also not great.
It was made in 2008.
It is, however, directed by Rui Kitamura
and stars Vinnie Jones, Bradley Cooper,
Brooke Shields, and in a small part
where he gets murdered, Ted Ramey.
Emily: Incredible.
Jeremy: yeah.
All, all favorites.
So like It's, it is also not great.
It has some strong racist vibes in
the early parts of the movie and, uh,
also has a, a straight relationship
which exists for no other reason than
for this man, the straight man to be
pulled away by an obsession with another
man that is definitely not sexual.
But also, like, there's a lot of, there's
a lot of things that don't make sense
in this movie, like, part of it is one
of those, like, moving it out of 1984
to 2008, like, his, his job is edgy city
photographer, and it's like, 2008, that
doesn't, doesn't quite work the same way.
Emily: Yeah,
Jeremy: You know, he's going around
shooting shit on film and the subways.
There's a lot of like
ethnic street toughs.
But like, that this movie, I will
say if you, if you don't want me
to ruin the twist of this movie for
you, just skip ahead a few seconds.
But like, that this movie is about
a dude pummeling people to death on
the subway seemingly randomly, but.
on a regular basis and then getting
away with it because the train, the guy
driving the train, is also involved.
But then it turns out
to be about vampires?
Worth it
Ben: Okay,
Jeremy: for that.
Ben: okay, you have my interest.
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: about ancient, it's all about
ancient subway vampires, it turns out,
in the last five minutes of this movie.
Um,
Emily: I, yeah,
Jeremy: which was the twist
I needed at the end of Dread.
I just
needed Dread to have.
One last, fuckin bonkers twist, but
Ben: I need him to be like a fear based
energy vampire a la Colin Robinson.
Emily: yeah, except, yeah.
Jeremy: Just, Subway vampires.
Um.
Yeah, but
yeah,
Emily: Satan.
Jeremy: you can also find, find
that one, like one of the free many
of the free streaming services.
So, uh, Midnight Meat Train,
it's a hundred minutes.
It's not great, but you will
come away from it going Ha!
Wild.
Emily: Bless.
Jeremy: Less, significantly
less rape, than this film.
Emily: Cool.
That's, that's awesome.
Love that.
I did want to recommend an
actually good movie that has
a few through lines with this.
There's bleach in it.
There's axes.
yeah, that's about the same.
That's about the number of similarities.
But Monkey Man.
Finally watched Monkey Man.
The movie's so fucking good.
It's
Jeremy: Fuckin love
Emily: good.
Also there's a song in it that is about
punchy grapists, and it's by a band called
Bloodywood, and yeah, it's really good,
so look up them, look up Bloodywood,
look up Monkeyman Nice Palette Cleanser
if you're watching something, and you're
like, I need to see, I don't know, cool
Jeremy: It's streaming on
something now, what did you
watch it
Emily: it.
I fully bought it on Amazon I
Jeremy: Yeah, I hyped that one
up when I watched it in the
theaters, I remember, so.
It's good shit.
Yeah, uh, that does it for us.
Teal, do you want to let people know
where they can find you online and
find out about what you're up to now?
T. L.: Yeah, absolutely.
And if you're intrigued by my
alternate headcanon of Dread,
you might dig some of my books.
Give that a shot.
I am currently only on Blue Sky as
far as social media goes and Tumblr.
Make of that what you will, but T.
L.
Boudin in both places, or just
stop by my website, tlboudin.
com got a Patreon where I post
monthly deep dives and horror analysis
over there if that's your jam and
yeah, I think that's about it.
Jeremy: I think that is a
lot of our listeners jams.
Ben, what about you?
Ben: Pre order Mr.
Muffins coming out January 2025
from Oni press about a magical corgi
who's going to save the galaxy with
his magical corgi laser powers.
And, uh, yeah, sign up for my
newsletter at, uh, benkahn.
substack.
com.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
And Emily, what about you?
Emily: Megamoth.
net for all your Megamoth needs.
Working on, uh, a bit more of
a online presence, but I am on
Tumblr and on BlueSky as well.
And on, on Patreon as Megamoth, so that
is Megamoth one word, like a big moth.
Jeremy: Fantastic.
And, uh, as this comes out,
I'm pretty sure, uh, it will be
September already for all of you.
Uh, we are, of course, living in the past.
But that means that, uh, you're
lucky because My new book,
Navigating With You, is already out.
You can go buy it right now.
It's a queer romance about falling
in love over manga and once you go
pick that up and read it, or even
after, or even before, you can come
see me at many of my convention
appearances that I'll be at this month.
I'll be at Madison Comics Expo in Madison,
Wisconsin the 14th and 15th of September,
and then I'll be at, uh, Baltimore
Comic Con the 20th through the 22nd.
So, uh, come on out and see me, buy
books, or get books signed, or just
come talk about scary movies with me.
Emily: Nice.
Oh, if this is September, then
maybe it is before or after Rose
City Comic Con and Ben will be
there and I will be present.
Ben: Come say hello to me
and Emily at Rose City.
Emily: yeah.
So we'll, we'll be, we'll be around.
We'll be findable.
So yeah, it's the first
weekend in September.
Jeremy: Yeah, so this will be coming out
as you guys are probably there right now
Emily: Whoa.
Jeremy: of time travel.
Fantastic.
That does it for us.
Uh, we will see you all next week.
I believe next week We will be talking
about something we've been talking about
since the beginning of this podcast Uh,
which is the film alien covenant guys.
We're
Ben: Holy shit.
Emily: Talk about subtext,
the homoerotic subtext.
That is one thing that
movie does commit to.
And by that I mean text.
Jeremy: Until then, uh, get your
faces ready to be hugged and, uh,
and stay horrified.