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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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To find out about our certification
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to the show.
I've got Karen Rolf here.
A lot of you already know who she is.
Her work precedes her and her program.
Dressage naturally has been one of the,
I'd say lynchpin approaches to trying to
bring something a bit more humane back
to dressage, which unfortunately, over
the last few decades seems to have become
dressage in, for horses and humans a bit.
But more than that, she, she's got a
lot more to her and her life and her
work and her philosophy is something
which I've been, you know, wanting
a chance to explore for a while.
So I'm, I'm quite excited that
she's one of the people who.
Has really trot a path of sort of horses
and self-actualization and bringing
together certain aspects of nature
and the mind through the equine field.
So Karen, thank you for coming on.
Can you tell us, you know, a bit about
your work, who you are and, and sort of
how you got here, or why did you get here?
Karen Rohlf: That's a lot.
Well, first of all, Rupert,
thank you so much for asking
me to join you on this podcast.
It's it's fun to, to be able to sit
and, and speak with you and hang
out with you for a little while.
So I really appreciate being here.
But let's see where to start.
I mean, I, I started, and this is really
important to mention because it's,
it's pervasive through, through me.
It's just a little kid.
In love with horses.
You know, I was just one of
those horse, crazy horse girls.
I want a horse.
I want a horse.
I want a horse.
And lucky enough that my mom had
a horse for a little while when I
was seven and was all very low key.
This was like property
at the end of our street.
She did some fox hunting
for a little while.
I was not a, a showgirl, you
know, it was not like Where
Rupert Isaacson: was this,
where did you grow up?
Karen Rohlf: This was on Long Island.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Smithtown Hunt the Smith.
Yeah.
Smithtown Hunt.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: Near where Harry Dele was.
His place was near us.
And yeah, in the historic town of Au
New York, part of the Revolutionary War.
So there's some history.
But yeah, I was not into showing.
It wasn't, that was never my goal.
I just like loved horses and
wanna hang out with horses and
got a horse when I was a kid.
And did pony club and all that, and
mostly spent a lot of time alone with my
horse in the bushes doing stupid things.
But luckily I survived.
So, the, the dressage training
came through Pony Club.
You know, we had to do dressage in order
to do the fun stuff of jumping and, but
my the, the first horse I had took off
with me once during a a junior hunt, and
we passed all the hunt's people and the
red coats, and we galloped right through
the hounds, which is really not okay.
Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: It's like
taking your clothes off in St.
Peter's.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
So the Huntsman galloped after me, grabbed
my horse, led me up to my mom and said,
take this kid for dressage lessons so
she can learn how to control her horse.
Rupert Isaacson: Well that was
quite enlightened when I was
growing up hunting in England.
They probably would've just taken us
to before a firing squad for that.
So yeah, things have improved a bit.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, so, so my mom, I was
like, okay, my mom did what she was told.
And when I outgrew that horse and then
got another horse I ended up going, I
was taking lessons at the barn where of
Anne Grins who was on Long Island and
she's now, you know, international level
judge and well known in the dressage
world, really a pioneer dressage in
the USA and she took me under her wing
and that second horse off the track
thoroughbred with an old bow tendon doing,
you know, local, local hunter classes.
Ended up learning everything
and we represented the Young
Riders team four years.
And, you know, through him
I became a professional.
I didn't mean to become a professional,
I was gonna do something else.
But you know, when you're a horse
crazy girl and people pay you to
ride their horses, you know, why
get a real job when you can do that?
And yeah.
And so that's how I ended up
being a dressage professional.
Rupert Isaacson: But why dressage?
I mean, it sounded like if your
first love was to go off into the
bush and do silly things with your
horse and go hunting and jump and
do all the fun stuff as you put it.
Okay.
So the dressage had to be a way
to get control of your horse.
Why did it, why'd you
get bitten by the bug?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, it was at, at
one point my horse was pre St.
George and getting ready to event
preliminary level and I realized I'm
kind of a chicken and we'd go, you
know, galloping up to these jumps.
And in my mind I was telling my horse,
if you wanna jump this, I'll stay on.
But if you don't, that's okay with me.
And I thought, I'm gonna die.
'cause like you, that's not a
way to, to be an event writer.
Rupert Isaacson: No.
Karen Rohlf: So, and I really, so
I was a little bit of a chicken
and I really was getting into the
the complexity of the dressage.
I thought it was like a amazing, I mean,
I remember riding in my diary like, horses
can go sideways, you know, and drawing
a little diagram on my first leg yield.
I'm like, I had no idea.
And what was interesting being at
Noll Farm, like I actually, I had
my horse in the bushes behind my
house, and then I would trailer
maybe once a week to Noll farm.
And, but I would go in the afternoons
after school when all the fancy
horses were done being schooled.
So I never, I never got,
like, I was never comparing.
I would just go do what I was told.
We'd learn our stuff and I'd go
home and practice and I didn't
know that that shouldn't work.
It shouldn't work.
That someone, a kid who doesn't
know dressage on a horse
that doesn't, no dressage.
Should be alone training in the bushes.
But we just kept going.
And I, because I didn't go there and
compare myself to all the fancy horses
that Anne had, 'cause I never saw them,
we just kept going of the levels and
uh, and yeah, then I was just hooked.
I, I love the precision.
I think it's amazing that you can teach
a horse to do dressage movements because
it's like teaching an alien to play piano.
I mean, you know, jumps, horses
get it, I gotta get over the jump.
Cows, horses get that.
So I thought it was really amazing
that I could teach a horse to
prance and skip and go sideways.
And just because we asked them to.
When it works.
It's amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: She was clearly
a very good teacher, Anne, right?
Karen Rohlf: Yes.
She is a really good trainer, really good
teacher, really supportive of youth in
dressage and yeah, she taught me to ride.
She taught me to train.
She taught me to teach and she gave
me lots of opportunities to like
ride her horses when she went away or
teach her students when she went away.
And I was so scared, but like,
she, she really supported me
and, and she's, you know, nice.
She's very petite.
She's fiery and strong, but very petite.
How unusual
Rupert Isaacson: in the
Karen Rohlf: horse world.
Yeah.
Had to be clever.
Yeah.
She had to be clever.
She's not a brute force rider.
Yeah.
You know, she, she had to be light,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
But as you know, I mean, so
precision can very quickly
turn into that tyrannical word.
That pervades the dressage world
and has done for generations.
I was just reading yesterday max,
you know, one of the August dead
dudes, you know, of history, who
was the teacher of Ziga, who was the
teacher of Steinberg to eth on the
right hand of God of German dressage.
And
you know, he talks endlessly about
Correct, correct, correct, correct.
Instead, a German accent must be correct.
German accent and there's
a tyranny to that word.
And, and innate stress to that word.
Mm-hmm.
And the difficulty as you know
and I know, is that we have
inherited the dressage tradition.
In fact, the entire tournament
riding tradition of any discipline.
Outside of Western from the military
and with military comes being an asshole
because you've actually supposed to
be an asshole because you're supposed
to teach the humans and the horses
how to cope with stress under fire.
So they idea is you stress them.
I was at military school,
that's what they did to us.
So what surprises me is that given how
incredibly toxic the dressage world is,
and I know this 'cause I'm in it because
I'm a trainer why was it, do you think
that in that moneyed suburb of New York,
somehow you and Anne dodged that bullet?
Why did that not end up?
Because, you know, when you're an
impressionable teenager, the, and
then, you know, and then, okay, you
didn't start with the shows, but
pretty soon you were at the shows.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And you were
rubbing shoulders with that culture,
and to some degree, that culture
must have rubbed off on you a bit.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one
bit, you know, only human.
How did you, how did you and
she manage to navigate, to
not be sort of subsumed by it?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, I mean, I think, I
think she was much more in that culture,
but on the nice end of the scale.
Right.
So there was enough things just
in the way, I mean, there's a
sliding scale of this, right?
Yeah.
So, but the still horses lived in
stalls until they came out to work.
And they shouldn't use too much
energy when they're turned out
'cause we need that for the dressage.
So like, there's still that, but
that's very traditional, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Well, it's military, that's the word.
But, you know, the language that
she used was all educational.
It wasn't force and make,
and that's stupid thing, but
it was still sy systematic.
I, I think my personality is so,
I'm so, I don't know, born with
this like fierce independence.
Like I, I don't join stuff.
So somehow I was enough in love with the
horse that I, I didn't buy into anything
that was forced, that I saw going on.
So I think Anne was on the
nicer side of the sort of
normal dressage things for sure.
But even some of the just lifestyle
stuff within dressage, I, you know, I
was part of it that I had horses there.
I trained training horses,
but I, I never liked it.
Like, I still wanted my horses
to be turned out and I wanted
to go do fun things with them.
And as far as the, like, the precision
for it was really clear that there
is riding and training and there's
competing and those are separate and
there's a certain additional skill
that you need when you compete, which
is the art of making things look like
they're working even when they're not.
Right.
So, in the moment of the test,
you have to kinda keep it together
and put a little more leg on and
hold them a little bit there and
kind of, you know, use that skill.
It's a skill and it's not a bad skill,
but it needs to be used consciously.
So the whole idea of.
You know, classical versus
competitive in, you know, and I
don't even, who knows what classical
means, so maybe I won't use that.
But there's training, which is you
ride today, so tomorrow's better.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Karen Rohlf: Right?
You ride today, so tomorrow's better.
And in competition you ride.
So right now looks as good as possible
and is good as possible, but if
it's not good, make it look good.
And I think a lot of times people
look at dressage and they think
competitive dressage, and then they're
learning the skill of make it look
like it's happening, even if it's not.
And then that's what's taught to train.
But you,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Karen Rohlf: if you use that for training,
you're, you're missing the chance to take
something apart, deconstruct, educate,
so that then tomorrow it comes out
Rupert Isaacson: and there's
a key, there's, I, I think
you hit it on the nail there.
The,
going into an arena, you
know, arenas are where.
One focuses attention, right?
And things like gladiatorial combat
happen, you know, with blood upon
the sand or people being eaten by
lions or doing a dressage test.
So there is an innate pressure
and stress simply to the
environment of the arena itself.
And the, the footing of the arena in
sand was also partly to drain blood.
Originally, not just it's, it's also,
it's still there for the bull ring.
You know, I live in southern Spain
and you know, that's what an arena is.
It's, it's, it's there to
give grip and to drain blood.
So it, if one understands that, one always
knows that when one enters an arena, even
in a training context, there's going to be
an in an innate sort of a pressure, which
comes simply from the spirit of the place.
The Romans had a great.
A great way of understanding this.
I dunno, you're probably aware of this,
that the Golish Celtic goddess, a French
Celtic goddess Aona, who sometimes
represented as a horse and sometimes
represented as a female goddess with
a horse and of fertility in Plenty as
well, was one of the only goddesses
ever to be adopted by the Roman Army.
The Roman Army often adopted gods
from other cultures because they'd
adopt anything from other cultures
that they thought was so, the
culture of Myth Rat, for example,
was a military cult, but a poona.
She's about peace.
She's not about war yet.
The Roman cavalry adopted her and
they, you see shrines to her in
Roman barracks that have been dug
up, you know, all over Europe.
There's often a dedication that you
see where, which was an inscription
above the horse training area, which
was a, a sort of a dedication to
opponent herself and the spirit of.
Spirits of the training ground.
So there was an understanding
that the training ground had
its own spirits, had its own
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Ghost if you like.
And I think we feel that today, but
we maybe don't express it like that.
And that force can feel benevolent
or malevolent depending upon a
whole range of external factors.
Right.
And internal factors.
W when you were going into the arena to
compete, as you say, you're this girl
who actually likes to do turn your horse
out and likes to do naturalistic things
with your horse and you're accepting.
Okay, now I'm going into
the gladiator phase.
Talk, talk to us about your competitive
career and how you as that type
of personality coat, are you in
fact, deep down, very competitive
and you just hide it quite well?
Are you fiercely competitive?
Karen Rohlf: It, there's, there's nothing
like the feeling of having a good ride
and being rewarded and acknowledged
and getting a, a, a pretty thing and
standing up there and everybody pointing
at you going, look what you did.
Right?
So, so I mean, that feels good, but the,
one of the reasons I stopped competing was
because I would go do the class and then
I'd, you know, pack up and go and I go,
oh wait, I forgot to look at how I did.
Right.
So I realized that you could be riding
one horse who tried his heart out
and did everything that you asked and
might never score better than another
horse who clearly was stressed out
and you were wrestling the whole time.
But he was a good mover.
So he is gonna get a better score.
And I just found that the, the results.
I mean, I could see within one
horse you do one test and then over
time see how that score improves.
But I, I, I stopped being
interested in how we did, and I
thought, this is way too expensive.
If I don't really care, like I'd, I
like the professional opinion, but
I could get that a different way.
I don't have to go to show,
but I liked the showing as a
moment to rise to the occasion.
It's like, can I plan
on having a best day?
In this place at this
exact time with this horse.
Like that's exciting to me.
But and I, and I, as part of my
education, the showing dressage
levels was, was hu beautiful?
Like we go, okay, this year's first level,
okay, now we're gonna work on second and
third level stuff and then we'll do this.
And like, as a student learning to
go through that progression on one
horse, the first time doing dressage
to take the one horse from zero all
the way up the levels was pure gold.
Priceless to my education.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Because I know how a
system can work and I know how it
progresses and I know how doing this
level then changes the stuff underneath
and improves the basics and what do
you need in order to do the next.
So that's why I don't, I'm
not at all anti-competition.
It's, it's just a date on the calendar,
on a particular piece of dirt.
And can you rise to the occasion
and train in a way that gets there?
Then the, the tricky part is
can you as a human with an ego
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Do that and still have
boundaries, and still have things that
you won't do in order to get that,
even if you spent a lot of money on it,
can you still do right by the horse?
And so that's the, that's the competition
and the mental, emotional part of that
as being a human invested in this.
Can you still, you know,
be right by your horse?
And that's a whole other skill set.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, I mean, I'm, I'm
sure once you had taken that professional
track, there would've been a certain
amount of pressure to consistently win
or at least place because, you know, you
need cred In those days, particularly
the most of the credibility was based
upon your, your competition record.
How did you resist.
And also with that first horse, how far
did you, did you go with that horse and at
what point did you encounter limitations
beyond which perhaps he could not go?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, he, he learned
everything except massage, interestingly.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And so, and I remember we, you know,
we tried, and then there's one, I
remember one day when my trainer
was riding him, which he rarely did.
And and he had a great pee off
and a really good cantor, and
he, like, he should massage.
But at one point it was getting a little,
you know, hard and then he broke out
into this perfect pace and Ann and I just
stopped and we said he, it's like he, he
just, he's trying, like, he tried so hard.
He, he broke the diagonal rhythm
of his gait to try to please us.
And we both just looked at it and
go, he's not gonna do massage.
And that, that was fine.
He, he had done, he had done enough.
And so that, like, I
remember that moment going.
He's really trying to figure
out what the heck we want.
And we just decided that,
you know, it wasn't fair to
push him to do that anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
So, and I just, I think I like
on the professional track, yeah.
There's that moment where you're
like, okay, it's going, it's going.
And yeah, here comes the part where
someone, you know, puts a really
expensive, fancy horse under you.
And, and you know, so I was seeing
that happening around and you know, oh,
how come nobody and does it with me?
And then like, but it's, there was one
moment where, you know, I'm reviewing
my goals and I realized, like, I could
imagine, oh, it would be so cool to
be on the podium at the Olympics,
be, but then I realized, oh, I think
that's the goal I think I'm supposed to
have, because that's the narrow track.
What else are you supposed to do?
Mm-hmm.
And I realized.
I was not interested in any, in most of
the parts involved in having that happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Karen Rohlf: I didn't wanna pour my heart
into horses that other people owned.
I was doing a lot of that and
starting to get very heartbroken.
I'm like, I can't imagine being, I don't
wanna be in that situation where I'm
just a, a rider on a sponsor's horse.
I really didn't wanna take,
you know, I didn't have enough
money to buy my own horse.
I really didn't like the idea of
flying horses all over the world.
I didn't like how these
competition horses were kept.
I like being home and I just like, wait.
I don't think I actually have that goal.
I think it's just sort of a nice idea,
but it, it wasn't actually a goal that
I really wanted to do, so I let go of
it and I realized I really enjoy just
working with any horse to help them.
Move better, or the horse and
the rider understand each other
better and have fun and be healthy.
And you know, I just, I was in that
scene and I realized it wasn't,
it didn't fit my personality.
Rupert Isaacson: How long
were you in that scene?
Karen Rohlf: Gosh, from, you know,
like from when I was like 16, started
really competing and then I came to
Florida in 2003 and that's when I
left, you know, Ann's I left the,
the training thing and I came to
Florida and that's when I had started
dabbling in the natural horsemanship.
And I just came to Florida for
the winter season for two months.
And after six weeks I called home
and I said, I'm not coming back.
I like doing my own
thing with my own horses.
I am free and I can do all my silly stuff.
And yeah.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: that's
interesting though.
You said most people go to Florida
out of the dressage world to
do more sport dressage, right?
I mean that's
Karen Rohlf: Well, that's
what I, that's what I did.
It just I had already started to fiddle
around with natural horsemanship with
some horses of, with a horse of mine.
And yeah.
Then I had it where I went in Florida,
just happened to be like seven miles from
Pat and Linda Pelli, who was, which was
the program I was learning at the time.
And and I just, all of a sudden I
was out of this training facility
with all the eyes on me and I was all
by myself, you know, in this barn.
I mean, there were other people around,
but I didn't know them and I could kind
of do whatever I want and I was like,
yay, I can just be who I wanna be.
And and I just like that this is because
I was really ready to quit horses.
Rupert, like, I was burned out.
I was working, I was tired
of the attitude I was.
I'm tired of riding everybody
else's horses and just, I was, I
thought I was gonna quit horses,
so I did the winters, you know,
came down to just be in the warmth.
And a student had moved down
here, so I was like, just work
with her and some other people.
And then I was like, oh, it's
not horses that I wanted to quit.
It was, it was the professional
dressage trainer lifestyle and
circumstance that I wanted to quit.
And so now I was in Florida
riding bareback and bridal
list as much as I wanted to.
And I was a little kid in love
with horses, and I'm like,
just more of this, please.
Rupert Isaacson: How did
you afford it though?
Because, you know, if you're not
coming from a money background and
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: You're now making
your living as you say, riding
other people's horses up the levels.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And then
you make a sudden break.
You're in Florida, those parts of
Florida where say the Perellis live,
that's not a cheap area of Florida.
That's not a cheap area.
So how did you, how did you
manage to make that transition?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, no,
it's a good question.
But I mean, I was working my
butt off in New York and giving
a lot of it to the facility.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Karen Rohlf: So, you know, I
brought I had three horses in
training here, plus my own horse.
And it's amazing how when you get to keep
all that money and rent the stall, I was
doing all the work myself, but, you know,
I was in my mid thirties, I could do it.
Yeah.
And you know, and I was
just like doing the math.
I'm like, this is actually better.
Yeah.
I'm making more money riding fewer horses.
And you know, it's just
different kind of work.
But it was time and then you,
Rupert Isaacson: it
Karen Rohlf: was time to change.
Rupert Isaacson: So you started
building up at that point, a
clientele and a, and a practice.
Mm-hmm.
How long did it take you to bring that new
practice into coherence, into the dressage
naturally thing that we know today and w.
Then what is dressage naturally and
and how does it differ from what
other people generally would think of?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, well, I came,
I came to, I'd started fiddling
around with, you know, partnership
based, natural horsemanship, be
kind of stuff in the late nineties.
And so then 2003 I came here and
then I ended up going and taking
a clinic with Linda, and then they
were just really generous then
Rupert Isaacson: lieutenant.
That would be
Karen Rohlf: Linda, sorry?
Linda Pelli.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, Linda Pelli.
Karen Rohlf: Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: And, and you know, that
point mixed up, like no sport people or
dressage people for sure were anywhere
interested in anything they're doing.
But I had seen some results
with my horses, so I was curious
to learn a little bit more.
And they were really excited that
a dressage person was interested.
So they were very generous
and spent the, you know, a lot
of time with them in Florida.
And then they invited me to
go to Colorado with them.
So I like, took, took some horses
and went to Colorado with them.
And so for a couple years I kind of
just did that, lived outta my horse
trailer and schlep back and forth from
Florida to Colorado and was very happy.
And then, and then I ended up buying
some property here in Florida.
And and then I was like, okay, I'm done.
I'm not hanging around
with the pres anymore.
Like, I need to, you know,
work as a trainer and.
I had to figure out like how,
like I, I have all this like
foundational partnership stuff.
I have my dressage training.
I'm like, how am I gonna figure
out, like when do you do what?
So I ended up writing the
book Dressage Naturally.
And that was started out as a process
for myself of like, how do I decis,
how do I know when to do what,
when, when do these skills come in?
When do these skills come in?
How do they dovetail?
How do they reconcile?
'cause some of them is so opposite,
like most natural horsemanship
then was like so Western and the
horses weren't moving anywhere the
way I wanted my horses to move.
So, yeah, in 2005, six, I wrote the book
and made a video and it came out in 2007.
And so it was during those
years that I really sat myself
down and go, how does this.
How does this fit together?
And I'm, I'm pretty happy
with how it turned out.
And so, so dressage naturally
really is, for me, hopefully
the best of both worlds, right?
The mental emotional parts that I learned
from more partnership, e training,
and the physical from the dressage.
But it's, I think how it's different than
most dressage training is, it zooms out.
It's like dressage is just one little
piece of my time with my horses.
Like if any particular horse, okay, so
five days a week I spend 40 half hour to
45 minutes doing dressage, quote unquote.
That's a small piece, but it
really takes a holistic view.
And so my goal for it is that it helps,
you know, horses and rider enjoy the
process of learning to be in harmony, but
you have to have a holistic view of this.
And so what I, I have a.
Training scale that I use.
But underneath that is like the,
the principles and the priorities.
So much of the humans get like
laser focused on techniques.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Karen Rohlf: And there's so many
different techniques and yeah, they
can all work or not depending, but
where things fall apart I think is when
everything gets really narrow focus
and no one's zooming out and looking
at the horse's life and, and the, the
holistic view of where this silly folly
of training my horse to prance falls in.
Right?
So, you know, so there's like
some, some basic principles.
So number one, five ba
five basic principles.
If I had to pick the, the top five.
So one dressage should be for the horse.
The basics should be for the
horse and feel good to the horse.
It's about healthy movement.
Principle two, everything comes
from and returns to relaxation.
Three, mental, emotional, and physical
are all equal doorways to the goal.
And four, precision.
You talked about precision.
I think precision arrives outta the
possibilities that play creates.
And then the last, well, principle
five is dressage can only be as good
as the partnership, the communication,
the biomechanics and writing skills
combined and all of those matter.
So, so no matter what we do, like
those principles need to be upheld.
And then, and then layered on that
as these three priorities, one,
our respon, our responsibility to
the horse, number one priority.
They did not ask for any of this and
their entire life experiences in our
hands, and we owe it to them to give them.
You know, a, a decent life at
least priority two is what I call
the happy athlete training scale.
So there's like prioritization within that
and I can talk about that in a minute.
And then priority three is our never
ending quest for our own self-awareness
and our own personal development.
So, we can be the best humans
that we can be for our horses.
'cause horses make us happy,
but they shouldn't have to.
Rupert Isaacson: That's a good quote.
Karen Rohlf: I know that's a lot in there.
Boom.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's talk
about your training scale.
So some listeners and viewers will
know what the training scale is, and
Karen Rohlf: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: people talk about the
training scale, but of course the training
scale is simply a set of principles coming
largely outta the German school, which
is only one of the various schools of
dressage, but it happens to be the one.
That prevails for historical reasons in
what we think of as competition, dressage.
And there's an interesting accident of
history that created that, which probably
is worth telling that story in a moment.
But, so what is it, if I remember
correctly, it's rhythm, relaxation
contact or connection.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Impulsion.
Straightness and collection.
Isn't that right?
Yeah.
More or less,
Karen Rohlf: yeah.
Something like that.
Yep.
And there's
Rupert Isaacson: some
Karen Rohlf: little variations.
Rupert Isaacson: There's
some variations on this.
Some people call it a scale and
some people call it a pyramid.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And one of the
things I've always wondered at
with that is, well, two things.
There always seem to me one crucial
word missing from it, and one
absolutely ignored part of it.
And what you said just now, you actually.
Spoke about the missing bit, and
you spoke about the ignored bit.
So the missing bit to me was joy.
When you see a horse in nature, pull all
the fancy moves, when do you see that?
You see that when a horse is playing, when
a horse is flirting, courtship, rituals,
and when a horse is fighting, they lower
their center of gravity just like we do.
Mm-hmm.
We dance, we fight, we play, we lower
our center of gravity, and we move in
three dimensions as opposed to when
we're just walking to the toilet,
when we walk in two dimensions or
walking over the hill or whatever.
And that seemed, that's the dressing of
the horses to be able to move in those
three dimensions for whatever reason.
But if horses are doing this in behaviors
of passion and ecstatic emotional,
states, then surely that ought to be
the primary thing through the training
scale because otherwise the horse could
only do it in a sort of mechanical echo.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But they wouldn't
be able to actually do it because
they wouldn't be feeling it.
So that would be the first thing.
And you did just now
mention the enjoyment.
So my ears pricked up.
And then the other one is of course,
the second phase of that training
scale that you always see relaxation.
It's the one everybody seems to
ignore when one goes into your
average sport barn, you see
everything except relaxation.
Mm-hmm.
And no one's relaxed
with two legs or four.
The environment is set up so that you
can't be because whether it's a horse
boiling over in a stall or whether
it's a human terrified and anxious, or.
Fierce and ambitious, or the whole
environment is artificial or whatever.
Just the fluorescent lights you're
doing it under or whatever, you
know, it, it, the entire thing
is designed to kill relaxation.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And
Karen Rohlf: also, and
that's why that, sorry
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
Karen Rohlf: That idea of everything
comes from and returns to relaxation.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean that in between you're
supposed to stress your horse out.
It just means a
well-regulated nervousness.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, a hundred percent.
I mean,
Karen Rohlf: and it's like these
bell curves of like, you're, you
have start with a calm, cool horse
that loves his life, and then you
do hard stuff and then it returns.
And it's not just that, like training
just gets harder and harder and harder and
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Or you can start with a
five breathing dragon.
I mean, you, you come in on a stallion
who's feeling very stallion today.
Mm-hmm.
But he's still in his authentic self.
He's, he's like, mm-hmm this
is where I am right now.
And one has to be relaxed enough
to say, okay, that's cool.
Let's be there together.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And to.
It always seems to me that the
mark of a really good horse human
partnership is that you can fizz the
energy up enormously, but then when
you drop the rain, it's over and
you're both like, ah, yeah, okay.
That was cut.
That was cool.
That was fun.
Now let's go relax.
And there was an innate relaxation
through the whole thing even.
Exactly.
Everyone was at the apex of
a physical thing together.
Right, right,
Karen Rohlf: right.
And yeah, you take that, that horse,
that's a little fizzy when he comes out.
It doesn't mean you just sit there
and stare at him until he is relaxed.
It just means that that priority
is like at the end of this thing,
you know, the goal is that he's
like more relaxed than Yeah.
When we, you know, you're just trying
to, to feel like that's the, the
goal we've got endorphin, cortisol.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
And horses can be up
like relax, doesn't mean.
Dead.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: So, no, exactly.
Exactly.
So it's, it's interesting to
me that you've, you've, you've
yourself pinpointed those two
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Missing things
because I've often wondered why
that isn't more spoken about.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I
Karen Rohlf: mean, you take a, you know,
think of, you know, how you would be
sitting if you were bored outta your mind
or feeling or peed or scared, you know,
just think of what posture that would be.
And then if someone came along and put
a strap on to make my head go there and
then did something with my shoulders
and make, put my body in the shape of
someone who is engaged in athletic, you
just described my, just get me excited.
Like there's a million dollars over there.
Ready.
He get set, go do it.
Rupert Isaacson: You just
described my school days.
Karen Rohlf: I described your what?
Rupert Isaacson: My school days.
Karen Rohlf: Oh, right.
Yeah.
So yeah, so this training scale
that I have, the dressage scale
can fit inside there somewhere.
But for me, the base is happiness.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Right?
Happy, healthy, calm content,
comfortable for the horse and the
human meaning, like deal with your own
stuff before you show up to your horse.
Right?
Because frustrations, anger,
whatever garbage that we
humans, you know, carry with us.
So the first is happiness and, and
what I'm, I like to think about when
I'm not with my horse, how's his life,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Is he just staying in a stall or is he
be like, no, I'm not good, you know, so.
Mm-hmm.
And so just happiness and,
you know, that's a weird word,
but like, just not unhappy.
Like feeling okay.
Like, yeah, life is good.
Yeah.
And then, and then from there is harmony.
So the next layer up is harmony.
So that's the second priority.
That's where like self carriage comes
in, that you, you and your horse
together can be in the space and
there's trust, there's a attentiveness,
there's attunement, you're, there's
an emotional connection, right?
So when, when you and your horse, you
know, and two individuals that are happy
are gonna be easier to harmonize together.
And if two beings are in
harmony with each other, then.
Okay.
Like, I'm good.
You're good.
We're good together.
Now, the next priority we can
think about is communication.
All right?
And because if you're in harmony
already, but you know when you
enter the space, your horse isn't
running away or attacking you.
Like, now we can talk, right?
So now we can think about the
quality of the communication,
responsiveness, eagerness, understanding,
willingness, mental connection.
So many dressage problems can be
traced to poor quality communication.
The horse looks in the good shape, the
rider is told good by their instructor,
even though they feel like they
have to ice their hands after their
ride and their legs are cramping up.
So to me, what it looks like means zero.
If the quality of communication
between the horse and rider isn't
understood, isn't magical, isn't light.
So.
If you're two happy individuals,
you get along fine together and
now they understand each other.
Now we can start thinking
about how the horse is moving.
We don't care how the horse moves.
If the horse and rider are hating each
other and the horse is trying to run out
the arena, like it's just ridiculous.
Right.
Who cares?
But that happens a lot in dressage.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Right.
So, mm-hmm.
You know, and, and PS when I go through
these steps is even someone coming
with dress, very dressy problems.
When I work on the quality of the
communication and the harmony and the
happiness, already the dressage already
the horse is moving better, they're moving
differently, they're moving more freely.
The riders can let go
because they trust, you know?
So there's already improvements
in the horse's biomechanics.
Right.
So if the horse energized, balance
rhythmic aligned, are they physically
connected and moving in a healthy way?
So that's the fourth priority.
And then if you got all that now,
no matter what sport you're in now
you're ready for the sport specific.
So that would be the upper level
dressage, the fancy stuff, right?
That you know, anything that
you're, you're doing sports
specific skills, you're becoming
more agile, athletic, strong.
You're strengthening the muscles of
a happy, harmonious, connected under,
you know, understanding horse's,
moving really freely and healthily.
You're strengthening those
muscles, you know, coordination,
power, things like that.
And so when to keep that zoomed
out view, you can start to see.
That a lot of dressage problems
are not dressage problems.
There's something further down on
the scale, and so many problems with
horses can be solved by just lifestyle
changes or just taking little small,
simple things and just getting the
communication between the horse and rider.
What did you ask for?
Did your horse answer you?
Did you give him feedback?
Did you tell him yes?
Was he feeling successful?
Can he anticipate it the next time?
Or are you just controlling him
and wanting him to be mindless?
Some people want their
horses to be mindless.
I like my horses to think.
So, so that scale I just find so helpful
because it, it incorporates a lot, but
it also gives you some decision making.
Ways to decision make in
your horse's training.
Like, well, this is not working well.
Is there anything below there
that I could, you know, improve?
And it helps remind to have a
holistic view that like how your
half passes is way up on that scale.
And there's this, an
example I like to give.
I mean, you can probably think of a
million examples, but, you know, dressage
clinic in a covered arena, young horse
comes in, doesn't wanna go in the arena,
bulks at the door, they get him in.
Now he's in, now he's tense and he's
kind of frozen and not going forward.
Come on, come on, get your leg, tap him.
Pretty soon the instructor's
behind him with a lunge whip.
Now they're chasing the
horse around the arena.
This is not dressage,
but that was a dressage.
So they had to make it look like
it was working when it wasn't.
And I'm sitting there going, there's an
outdoor arena right next door that he
warmed up in that he was perfectly fine.
So for me, the choice would
be stay in the covered arena.
But the goal is that he's
confident in there that he trusts
you, that you have some harmony.
They were ruining harmony, they
were chasing him with a whip
that's not very harmonious, right?
So stay in the covered arena
and let the horse go, oh, I was
scared, but actually it's okay.
Or if you really wanna take advantage
of the dressage of professional there
and have a dressage lesson, go outside.
'cause he is fine outside and
you can actually do dressage.
And I'm watching this
going, what the heck?
But they all went to the default.
Mode of, we must make it look like
it's working, even if it's not.
And that what you said, that militaristic
background attitude comes in.
He must, and I'm thinking
No, he, he doesn't must.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and, and
the idea that one is doing this
to perform for a judge rather than
Karen Rohlf: Right
Rupert Isaacson: for its
own sake is so built in.
I remember, I forget where we
were training a horse in Pife and
the, we got the horse really gave
this beautiful result and someone
said, yeah, but that wouldn't get
you a nine in front of a judge.
I'm like, absolutely it wouldn't.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: because that's not the
point of what we're trying to do here.
There could come a day where
that might be a relevant thing to
think about, but that's not today.
Why, in your mind, are you already there?
Why are you not just within the joy of.
PFA, which is a joyful thing.
It, of horses do it in
nature when they express joy.
And but you could tell that that person
that made that comment was actually not
coming from a bad place, that it was
just what had been drummed into them.
Karen Rohlf: Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: And again,
the tyranny of, of correctness
and then what even is Correct.
One of the things that yeah, if I'm,
if I'm, I, I've, I've abandoned giving
clinics, actually what I will only
do now is workshops where a certain
number of people will bring a certain
number of horses, will kind of have
an idea of where they're at and where
we quite like what concepts would we
like to introduce and are there things
that maybe we would like to polish?
And then I'll, I'll involve everybody.
And if a horse is that way I don't have to
rush and say There is this hour in which
this person and this horse, because that.
I, I fell into that trap
and it began to stress me.
And then I realized I was stressing
the horse and the rider as well,
because I was projecting my stress.
And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on.
And, and it got to this point, I was
giving a clinic, an island, and the, the
horse was so tense and I said, you know,
we should just take off his saddle and
bridle and let him just walk around in
here and let him roll and let him explore.
And luckily the rider saw the sense in
that, and I said, you know, don't worry.
Just let him do that and then put
him away and then come back an hour
from now, because I, I guarantee you,
you, we won't run out of time here.
But anything that we do with the horse in
this emotional state would be pointless.
Right.
Because we'd just be forcing something.
Frankly, it could even be dangerous.
Why, why, why do that?
And then I was, oh, right, okay.
I've been going about this the wrong way.
It should be collegial, it
should be collaborative.
It should be something different
when we come together for some
sort of learning experience.
What, so it's, it's very interesting
to me what you're saying, but now
talk us through, paint us a picture.
Let's say you are out giving a clinic or
somebody comes to you and they, they do
come say, okay, I'm a dressage writer.
I've got this dress problem.
It's my half pass, it's my pf,
it's my flying change, whatever.
And you can tell that what they
need is happiness and harmony.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And what they want is something, what we
call in German in sport liquor, you know?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How are you going
to get them to see what you, and
then that's A, and then B, what
actually would you do for them?
As you may know, if you've been following
my work, we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for
many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is
often very confusing for people.
We shine a light on that murky, difficult
stuff and make it crystal clear.
If you'd like to learn to train your
horse in the manner of the old masters and
really have fun and joy for you and your
equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
com Sign up as a premium member.
and begin to take the Helios Harmony
course, which will take you from zero
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing
on the spot in hand on the ground.
And then from there, you can
develop out to anywhere you want to.
Heliosharmony.
com to unlock the secrets
of the old masters.
Karen Rohlf: Okay.
Those a low that you.
Brought this up and shared your experience
with teaching clinics, because you
know, in talking to lots of students
and horse owners and professionals,
there's a, there's a group that isn't
interested in this sort of conversation,
but there's a whole group of us that is,
and there's this thing where the clients
don't always feel good about what's
happening, but they feel like they have
to follow what the professional says.
And the professional doesn't like what's
happening, but they feel like they have to
have meet the expectation of the client.
Yeah.
And so this is so good that you did that
because both of them are feeling something
ain't right and no one's saying anything.
And I, by the
way,
Rupert Isaacson: I had another
experience where I did the same
thing and the rider never came back.
They just thought I was full of shit.
You know,
Karen Rohlf: that's okay.
Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't
Karen Rohlf: be able to do anything.
But see, this is okay and this is where.
So many problems that
horses have are made.
It's a, it's a money decision.
Mm.
I don't wanna lose that client, or I
don't wanna, so I think we all have
to be really brave in what I tell my
professionals is like, you have to go
on record of stating what you're seeing.
That's what you're there for,
your professional opinion.
And so I'll give an example of a
clinic I gave and let me see which one.
Okay.
I have a couple, well this one,
this is just a normal student.
And she was like, she had trouble
getting to the clinic 'cause her
force wouldn't load in the trailer.
And then she got there and she
wanted to work on her lateral work.
And so I, I, I would meet them where they
are like, okay, show me your warm up.
Show me your shoulder ins.
Okay.
Show me the Shoulder Inn.
It was a mess.
So like, okay, well just talk
me through, you know, your aids.
What are the aids for the shoulder in?
And so usually it's like a paragraph.
I'm like, okay, I got the paragraph
of AIDS you're using for the shoulder
in, and then and they're like, okay.
So it was like leg and nessy.
It's like, okay, well, you know, are
those aids working just in general?
So like, what happens when you
just put your leg on and ask
the hind end to step under?
And so I just, just show
me that and like, nothing.
You know, she's like
squeezing with his purse.
So, and then like, okay, well
show me what happens when you move
the shoulders in, like nothing.
So I was like, okay, all right,
well that, this makes sense that
your shoulder isn't working.
'cause like, so like, I was like, let's,
let's pick one, let's just work on,
you know, moving the shoulders around
and okay, we got something like that.
I said, you know.
How about like, let me move the
horse's shoulders, and you just
follow, so I move the horse's
shoulders and she's twisting around.
So I'm like, okay, now try not to
twist when, when I move the shoulders.
And then I was like, would you like,
and then we got it going and I was like,
would you like to learn how to do that?
You're like, what?
I just did.
So pretty soon she's on the ground.
Now.
Could I have said we're gonna start
with groundwork and do the basic yields?
And she came for shoulder
for lateral work help?
Probably not.
Yeah.
But I followed the logic.
I was like, show me.
And I, I always like to do this.
I, I like students to just
show me what they've got.
I rarely go in and just
orchestrate a lesson.
I'm like, you show me what you
are doing and tell me what's not
working and tell me what isn't.
I'll see if I can help.
And so I try to find the biggest
pieces of disharmony and like, let's
clear, let's, let's clear that up.
If it's a trust thing, then it's like,
okay, well what are you worried about?
If you're, don't trust your
horse to let go of the reins?
What do you think is gonna happen?
Are they gonna run off?
Are they gonna.
Not be able to steer or
like, what's the thing?
And then we work on that.
So I do a lot of talking to my students.
I ask them questions.
I listen to their tone of voice,
and I, through those questions, we
usually go, okay, does it make sense
that if we do this, it'll help that?
Yes, okay, you want something for that?
Great.
And now we're together.
And if I really butt heads with someone,
then you know, they don't have to
stay, they don't, you know, that's,
I'm, I'm not gonna compromise that.
But yeah.
And I, once I once worked with, I
did a clinic and the owner of the
facility was a Grand Prix rider, and
she's like, at the end of the clinic,
she's like, Hey, can you help me?
I've got this big horse and I need
help with the canter pirouettes.
He's really gets, you know, he's heavy.
So I watched her ride around
and we stopped to talk.
And the horse, I was standing in
front of her and the horse kept
like wanting to inch forward.
And so she had like a grip on the reins
and I was like, oh, just drop the reins,
like, we're gonna talk for a minute.
And she dropped the reins and
the horse would walk forward.
So she'd, pretty soon she'd be
gathering up on the reins holding.
It was like just standing there.
So it was clear the horse couldn't
stand still on a loose reign.
And so I started talking about
the importance of this and she
thought that was really boring
and went on and did her thing.
And I was like, no, you really need to be
able to stop your horse from your seat and
drop the reins and have 'em stay there.
And and she again thought, no, she needed
to half halt and do all this fancy stuff.
And finally she wouldn't listen to me.
So I was like, just go ride around.
And I sat in the back wall
and started checking my texts.
I'm like, you don't wanna listen
to me, I'm not gonna watch you.
But I'm like, peeking.
And so I'd give her this, this example
of like canter around and then halt and
drop the reins and have 'em stand there.
Like that's your exercise.
And she kind of got the idea and was
trying to sort of work on it her way, but
then it started getting better, right?
And she's like, huh.
And she slowly started to ride
closer to where I was and she's
like, it's starting to get better.
I was like, oh, okay.
So I put my phone away and went
up and engaged and talked to her
and she still wasn't like fully
committed, but I said, and she had
these two big mastiffs for dogs, two
great big dogs, very well trained.
And I said, we're talking about the
canter pirouette and sitting and all this.
And she couldn't figure out how
what I was doing was related to
sitting in the canter pirouette.
And I said, how do you
teach your dogs to sit?
And she's like, I tell them, sit.
And I go, okay.
And if they don't, she said, well,
I lift up on the collar and push
down on the rear end and I go.
Then, and then she went,
I let go and I went, oh.
And she said, oh, I get it.
So then she went back and played with
canner to halt and drop the reins.
And then I said, okay, now
collect the canner and drop the
reins, but stay at the cantor.
And we did that a little bit
and pretty soon she did a canter
pirouette with a loop in the res.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: So it's, it's tracing.
It's like tracing.
But with her, I probably had
to bridge it a little bit more,
but I thought I made it clear.
But just had to think of it differently
and, and say, I need the communication.
I need the trust, I need to educate the
horse on the elements, not just keep
trying to make it happen when it's not,
or cont or just use controlling aids.
'cause you can't really control a horse.
If that's,
Rupert Isaacson: well,
especially not in a pirouette.
No.
Because in a, in a
pirouette, as you know Yeah.
There's a point at which the horse
has to carry themselves in it
and we have to be out of the way.
And if we in the way, it'll destroy it.
Pf is the same.
Is the same.
Yeah.
Any of these things that have that
really fine balance, if we stop, we have
to set it up and get out of the way.
Right.
If we try to,
Karen Rohlf: and if you drop the reins,
it's not gonna cure everything, but
you'll find out what piece you need.
Like, oh, when you drop the res.
Right.
Do they need more engagement?
Do they need to be around or do
they need to be a quicker t like
you'll find out stuff but you, you,
it's got to come to a place where
the horse is carrying themselves.
'cause that's the point
Rupert Isaacson: I think.
Yes.
In your first story.
What I found of interest
there particularly was.
You know, the, the school I came into,
because I came into dressage through
the back door, I never intended to
have anything to do with dressage.
It was only that when my son became
verbal in the saddle in front of me.
And I noticed that it was when
the horse was in a soft collected
rhythm that this was happening.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That I realized I needed
to learn more about soft collected rhythm.
So that's when I went on this journey that
ended up with dressage and I tried going
through this sport dressage riding lesson
route, and I just saw everyone stuck its
shoulder in for 20 years for the very same
reasons that you described and thought,
well, I, I haven't got time for that, so
I need to find something more efficient.
And that's how I found my way down to
the French Portuguese system down in
Portugal, in Lisbon with the Valencia,
and realizing that the entire thing.
Could, was so much more efficient
if you did it on the ground first.
If you did it.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In hand if you understood
from the ground what was going on.
Can see it, get the feel
the horse understands.
You're both together on the ground,
then including the counter work.
And then you are in the saddle.
You are the sky monkey as I call it.
But you've got a ground monkey
who usually knows more than you,
who's the one who's doing what's
called the assisted in hand work.
And then you transfer the
ground aids to the rider.
Slowly, slowly.
That says under, oh, I see.
When the rider does this with his
leg, it means the same as when you
do that with a stick on the ground.
Okay, yeah.
I accept that.
I understand that there's no stress.
And then little by little the
ground monkey kind of comes away and
leaves sky monkey and pony together.
And if, but if sky monkey and pony
run into some difficulty, ground
monkey can come in again and help.
And this is entirely rational.
And I realize, oh.
When I was on the right, what
we think of as dressage is
only actually one small niche.
There's this thing DOMA Vara, which is
what people now call working quotation.
That is dressage.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: There is this
thing called eo, which is the bull
fight style, fast combat style,
but it's dressage all the way.
And then there's this Dorma
Classica thing where you formalize
it in a rectangular arena and do
it in a sort of balletic style.
And not every horse likes some horses,
like only one of those most, they almost
all like the working Equitation, Dorma, va
Carra one, and some horses like all three.
And some horses like, you know,
there's something there for everyone.
And this was very clear.
And so then we just went and started
producing our therapy horses this way.
And what we saw was that within,
you know, 24 months, 36 months, you
could get backyard quarter horses.
To like intermediate, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because you're doing it on the ground with
them, and then when you take it to the
saddle, they, they understand, and then I
realize, oh, that's what self carriage is.
The horse is able to carry itself, either
ride or I'm not carrying the horse.
This horse, no matter what mistake
I make, and I make so many mistakes,
I'm such an imperfect rider.
My horse doesn't give a shit
because they understand.
They, they're, they probably prefer it.
If I was a better rider, they're probably
rolling their eyes a bit and going, oh,
Rupert's sitting off to the right again,
and Rupert's collapsed his shoulder again.
Oh, well, you know, but I still know what
it is Rupert wants, so I'm gonna do it.
You know, he is carrying himself,
and of course I need that when
I'm up there with your child.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I
cannot give my attention too
much to the horse at that point.
My attention is all with the kid.
So I need to say to the horse, can
you please do this lovely rhythm thing
and can you sustain it, please, for as
long as me and this child need you to.
And the horse, if they understand,
can say, yeah, and then I can
give my attention to your child.
So the difficulty of, you know,
'cause dressage arose outta
doing jobs on horseback, right.
It arose out of livestock work, it
arose out of war, it arose out of
hunting, and then it got formalized
into the, managed, into the, and even
the managed the, what we call the
arena, but the es comes from the word
ma, the hand mano and ma in, in French.
It's where you work the horse to
the hand, which is the work on the
ground, and then taken to having the
horse Don Ma, which we call on the bit
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
To the hand.
Not from the hand.
Rupert Isaacson: Well in the hand don't.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it, you know, there's a
difference between just Oh good.
I get to use my hands now.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
And so, but this of course is so missing
because in the, particularly the East
Coast American tradition, you know,
it came out of the British colonial.
Tradition of riding, which abandoned all
dressage in the 18th century and went to
forward seat jumping fox hunting, da da.
So we've had to rediscover it.
It was the same in the UK and we've
discovered it through the German
sports system, which weirdly abandoned
all the in-hand work somewhere
in the early to mid 20th century.
But when you read Zieger and Steinberg,
they're all about the in hand work.
All those guys were doing it.
And then somewhere in the military
schools around the early 19
hundreds, you you, you pick up those.
Was it HDV 12, that book from
the German cavalry, suddenly
it's not really in there anymore.
And the Germans will still train
the piaf and to some degree the
passage from the, the ground.
But the rest of it they don't.
And what it means is then I
lived in Germany for eight years
and trained and worked there.
And I realized, oh my gosh, this country
that is supposed to be producing all the
top dressage writers, mostly producers,
really shit dressage writers actually.
And there's just a very, very,
very few at the top mm-hmm.
That get money pumped into them
that become the representatives.
But the vast majority of the people are
riding no better than anyone that you'd
see in a, in a regional show in Missouri,
and are not being taught any better.
The trainers are no better.
But somewhere in there it got lost.
So it's interesting that you found your
way also through the natural horsemanship.
So, which of course is
largely ground-based.
Mm-hmm.
And when you are training, do you
get at a certain point, most of your
clients to understand then, ah, yes.
If I start from the ground, it's
probably going to be clearer, or do
you still have the vast majority of
people with a real emphasis on trying
to do the whole thing from the saddle?
Karen Rohlf: It's a, it's a mix.
I mean, the, definitely the ground
groundwork is, is a part of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Karen Rohlf: But I think, I think I have,
like, I really feel like if you, like,
I'm not the one to go to, if you want to
like, learn all the classical stuff, you
know, from the ground all the way up.
I really focus.
I mean, I can, I can't do it, but what
I, what I really feel like I help people
with is whatever discipline you're doing
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: To help create this.
This more harmonious relationship where
like, whether you're gonna do jumping
or reigning or anything like the, I can
get, I can help people like see that big
picture, get the happiness, the harm is
the communication a freely moving horse
with a person who can not get, like, so
many people get into dressage and then
they get frozen by, am I doing this right?
Mm-hmm.
Am I doing this wrong?
And correctness, before getting
into that, just saying, you're,
you're asking the horse something.
What are you asking?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: How is the horse answering?
Are you giving the horse feedback?
Does he know when he's successful?
And are you getting to this
neutral place where, where, you
know, there is this harmony?
And then even with the biomechanics,
it's like if your horse is not
moving well, like, just on a really
basic level, like what you would
do maybe in a warmup or something.
He's, it's, it's, you've
gotta change the energy.
You gotta change the balance.
Or you've gotta like, say something
about the level of relaxation.
Like, can you talk to
your horse about that?
Can you turn those dials
and can you play around?
And so like when I, when I help
people, you know, if they're like,
oh, my horse is, you know, say they're
on the, on line, on the ground and
the horse is, oh, he keeps falling
in on his shoulder, on the side.
I was like, okay, change something.
Like, what happens if you lower
the energy or raise the energy?
What happens if, can you, are
you able to talk to your horse to
move the shoulder here and there?
Like if you want, if your horse is getting
wound up, can you tell 'em to chill out?
And, and then to teach people
to play with that and observe.
And at, by the end of the workshop
or clinic, they are telling me when
their horse is in the best mode.
Like it's less about, here is the
perfect shape for this, and now
I'm gonna show you how to get it.
I'm like, feel your horse.
What adjectives do you want to use?
Like, did it change?
Did you understand what you asked them?
And that's what I really
wanna help people with.
And then from that, you can take
that and go do whatever discipline
you want, follow this path.
Do Domo, Vaquero, do this, get classes, do
competitive dressage, like, you know, do
it in arena and do the pre Saint George.
Go ahead.
Because all you can shape that into
what you want at that sport level.
So those conversations, all those things
that we're thinking of, yeah, they start
on the ground and can you influence them
on the ground and then, you know, when it
gets into the more gymnastic movements,
yeah, we can do those on the ground too.
But I think where, where my focus
really is, is no matter what you're
doing with your horse, what discipline.
You know, when a rider comes to
me, I'll like, what's working?
What's not?
Show me what you're doing.
And show me, you know, I'll, I'll
look at where I see the disharmony is,
or the confusion or the imbalances.
You tell me what you're feeling and
let's get to a place where we can
resolve those so that then you can go on.
And sometimes they come and
I, they check all the boxes.
I'm like, yeah, let's work on your
counter Changes a hand at the half pass.
Now we're in the gymnastic sport mode
and we can get into the details of that.
But no matter what discipline you're
doing, no matter what groundwork or
classical this or that you're doing,
you gotta think what's the happiness
level, what's the harmony level?
What's the quality of the communication?
Okay, now we can, we can get precise
and say, okay, a shoulder in is a
shoulder in, and it's exactly this.
But if all the boxes below
that are ticked, it becomes.
Easier so that, that's
really where my focus
Rupert Isaacson: is.
Right.
As you say, a lot of people are frozen
and stuck and scared, and when, as you
know this, you know when your brain
is flooded with cortisol, when you are
in front of a triage instructor, your
brain tends to be flooded with cortisol.
You can't think, and you can't really take
in information and learn, and your feel
goes away, and you may not have ever been
able to cultivate, feel, because you might
have been so controlled and micromanaged.
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
You know, one sees so many of
those dressage rides with a trainer
micromanaging every minor angle of the
shoulder and thinking, gosh, well, even
if that is working without that voice in
the ear, the whole thing would fall apart
because there's a lack of understanding,
as you say, a lack of communication.
Lack happens.
Yeah.
So when, when somebody comes in and
they're not aware of these things like.
One says free movement
or quality movement,
it's by no means a given that
any of us would necessarily
know whether our horse mm-hmm.
Is in that or not.
So what do you do when somebody comes in
and they, they're actually really unaware
that they're perhaps in good faith.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But
they're really unaware.
So, so there is disharmony, but
they don't know there's disharmony.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: there's unhappiness,
but they don't know there's unhappiness
and there's poor quality movement,
but they don't know that either.
And then of course, if you bring
that to their attention, they're
gonna feel somewhat crushed.
How does one help them in a relatively
short space of time to get there?
See that, and also not be destroyed by
thinking, oh shit, I've been doing it all
wrong, and now I need to go kill myself.
You know?
As you know, if you followed any of
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We really want to know.
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live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.
Karen Rohlf: Well, that, that
part might be outta my scope,
but here, here's what I do.
This is actually the, this
is the fun part for me.
Okay.
I'll try to think of an example.
I'll, I'll, I'll use there's
a student, a very dedicated
student with a lovely horse.
She'd gone through several
horses, you know, but this
is lovely horse number four.
But she was, you know, stuck,
you know, stuck at the like
starting second level thing.
You the shoulder in will be
the death of many people.
Yep.
Everyone
Rupert Isaacson: gets stuff at children.
Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: And she was, you
know, very correct position.
I should use air quotes there.
Like, it looked good.
Lovely horse.
She was trying so hard to do
all the right things, but like
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm Mm.
Karen Rohlf: She couldn't get like
a working trot and she was frozen.
So, so here's what I do.
This is my, I go, what adjectives
would you like to use for your horse?
You know, I, I, first I
say, what adjectives do you
use to describe your horse?
You know, heavy, lean, all the things.
And I say, what adjectives
would you like to use?
And I get them to get those
adjectives and I like them, feel
springier or softer or flowier.
I'm like, okay, great, let's put
those in the front of the mind.
And then I go, okay, well the best trot
is gonna be some degree of energy, either
higher or lower than what you're doing.
There's gonna be some balance shift
different than what you are doing.
I don't know what needs to change.
Maybe the haunches to the left,
maybe the NCH is the right, I don't
know, maybe shoulders, maybe the
neck lower, maybe the, I don't know.
So we're gonna muck around with that and
we're gonna make sure at any time that
you can just exhale and stop and your
horse can stand still in a loose reign.
So we begin, and I
might pick one of those.
But let's say we'll
pick, we'll pick balance.
So sometimes playing
with the energy already.
You know, you'd be like, okay, at high
try higher energy, try lower energy.
Where does your horse meet?
Mm-hmm.
More of those adjectives.
Right?
So same thing with shoulders.
So I might say, okay, move the
shoulders one way or the other for
just a stride or two, and then just go
back to neutral and we'll muck around.
And I said, tell me.
So I have them tell me when do you feel a
moment where your horse is slightly more?
Any one of those adjectives
that they just told me?
Mm-hmm.
I still haven't told them
what they should be doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: And so then what'll
happen is I'll start to see it
change and I see this, the student,
and I'll go, how about there?
And then they'll hesitate and now
the horse won't be in that moment
and they go, I think that was better.
And I go, oh.
So I'm like, you gotta
tell me in the moment.
I said, I want you to tell
me yes if you feel like your
horse is even infinitesimally.
However you say that word.
Closer to one of the adjectives
you were looking for.
Just muck around.
Change something, go to
neutral, change it again.
Go to neutral.
And I have to, and I have to keep it
lighthearted and give them permission
to dare to say yes when they feel it.
And so that's a big thing.
'cause there's this delay.
'cause they go, oh my God, I felt it.
Is that it?
Was I wrong?
Should I say it?
I might be wrong.
And now the moment's passed.
So I'm like, listen, your horse is
under you going, how am I doing mom?
And I said, you need to tell.
So we get them going around, muck around.
I'll be like, encourage them.
How about now?
Like say yes.
Say it louder.
Yes.
Oh, okay.
Now we go and I say muck around.
Go to neutral.
It feels better.
Say yes and at the same time, reach
forward and rub your horse on the neck.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: You would not believe how
breakthrough that can be the confidence
giving the, the rider permission to
experiment because precision arrives
outta the possibility of the play crates.
Like move stuff around.
Mm-hmm.
Let's just, let's see what makes it worse.
You know, move stuff around the
permission to dare to say yes out loud.
So you have to breathe while reaching
forward, extending your fingers
and connecting with your horse.
There's a lot of cool things
that happen with that.
And now the horse is going,
oh thank God I did it.
Now the horse is getting
this like, whew, I did it.
Oops, I lost it.
Muck around.
Muck around.
Yes.
Oh, I got it.
Oh, I lost it.
So then we just repeat this and it starts
happening more and more frequently.
The rider now knows what they need
to do 'cause they get to repeat
it a million times, not hold it
together for one whole session.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: And pretty soon now, now the
ride, I was like, now you tell me when he
is in the better, the better spot today.
And now the students
riding around going here?
Yes.
Here.
Oops, hang on a second.
And I tell them, I have two rules.
You gotta be either searching
or enjoying nothing in between.
So, so either look for it or
just sit there enjoying it.
And pretty soon the percentage of
time searching gets smaller and the
percentage time enjoying gets longer.
And the, I never told them what to do.
They picked the adjectives,
they mucked around.
I just gave them some
things to muck around with.
They told me when is yes.
And Rupert like 99% of the time,
I completely agree that what
they did improved things and that
was better than it was before.
And I have not told them anything.
There's no right or wrong.
That is so powerful.
And there's so many students who are so.
Again, like frozen in this like, 'cause
I read this technique and they said to do
it this way and is this the right thing?
I was like, get, get the connection
between you and your horse going freely.
I was like, if you take that and go play
in the bushes all by yourself just doing
that, you will be 80% more improved.
And I said, then go get an instructor
and they'll tell you some more things
like, hey, I think a little quicker
tempo or a little higher neck or
more, you know, more angle here.
I was like, that will be like
easy to add on because you
already have this relationship
and communication with the horse.
I was like, but I, I've never had
anybody do that and come back and
now their horses choppier and more
crooked and more, you know, heavy or
it's always better and it's empowered.
So that's what, you know, I tell
people I'm empowered learning.
That sounds like you know, a
nice thing to put on a website,
but that's what I mean by it.
It's like most clinics, I'm not telling.
At the end of the clinic I go, do you
guys realize I never told you what to
what your working trot needed to be?
You guys ended up telling
me what your horse needed.
And it's, it's for the basics, but
like so many people are struggling
with the basics that it opens the
door to then apply more refinement.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
And in fact, I think one could say
that no matter how educated you become,
you're always struggling with the basics.
There is no time that I'm not.
Oh my
Karen Rohlf: gosh.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
One of the things that I love about what
you just said, there were two things too.
I mean, I like, I liked it all,
but two things again, stand out.
One was you encourage
'em to use their voice.
Yeah.
One of the inheritances of the
military is have your voice taken away.
So you are either the officer in charge.
Or you're taking orders.
So, you know, when I was at military
school, which I was the only acceptable
thing to say was, yes, Sarge, or
yes sir, if it was a commissioned
officer, no more and no less, no.
If one takes that to horsemanship, so
through pony club, which was taught by
ex-military, by it all comes to you were
occasionally allowed, you know, going in
at a big fence when I was a kid to give
your horse encouragement and also let
out some of your anxiety about going,
oh, you know, as they go over the fence.
But that was about it.
But you were allowed to use
your voice sometimes negatively.
Then I didn't realize how out
of the use of the voice I was.
And then of course I'm faced with
an autistic child who does not speak
and the greatest wish I'm having.
For voice.
And then through the horse side of the
education I have to go through with this.
I run into Master Luis Valencia in
Portugal who shows me that you can train
a horse right up through the air on the
ground between two vocal tones basically.
Ah.
Which is, I like that a lot.
Please can I have more of that?
And ah, which is, I don't quite
want so much of that, please.
And he said to me, Rupert, you've
got to have about minimum 85%,
ah, or the horse will give up.
So you need this constant, and
then he said, I said, well, what?
Okay, that makes perfect sense.
But what we going to do when we get
back into a situation where we're not
allowed to use our voice anymore, IE
an arena a, a a show ring or whatever.
I said, because I know
people are gonna ask me that.
And he said, oh, well then there's
all sorts of ways you can cheat Ruth.
You can just, and so he showed me
all sorts of ways to bring it down.
So for example, if I'm doing, going
between say, PF and massage and back again
if I just go make the sound of per, but
it, it, it's inaudible, but
the horse of course hears it.
He'll spring into massage, but it
starts with HA sar and it, and if
it's in PF and I put the vocal cue
on it, you know, once we've, the
horse is understanding it and it's.
The one I was taught is
rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.
Because I don't want to pee
one 'cause I want to di I
want to distinguish up, right.
So that someone is standing, you
know, some distance away, can't hear
what's going on, but horse sure can.
So I, you know, as, as you know, when
you're going from passage down into p
that's notoriously difficult, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Going from the pi into the passage
is somewhat more straightforward.
So in that deceleration, you know, if I'm
beginning to say whisper rhythm, you know,
he knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
And, but it's so interesting to have
the voice repowered and your, your
point there of having a, a rider say
yes and making it absolutely crystal
clear to their own nervous system, to
the horse's nervous system and brain
and their endocrine, their emotional
system, that this is good and that.
Blast of dopamine and that,
you know, you're talking about
being in, in the seeking mode.
You're either searching
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Or you are enjoying.
I love that because the, in
neuroscience, the, the seeking
brain is never the stressed brain.
Karen Rohlf: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: When we're
hunting, when we're looking,
we're somewhere towards play.
Mm-hmm.
Always.
And horses are the same when
there's, Ooh, what's that?
It's a problem to solve, you know?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: When that's
taken away, we're almost
always in some form of stress.
Right.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I don't
hear that being understood much
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: In massage world.
So I love that you did that.
And then the physical connection.
Now I have this thing
called spider fingers.
When I see people are tense,
I, there's two things.
I, I make them sing silly songs.
I, I will go first.
Usually like the naughty limerick that
we started this with, which I didn't
record, but if people want to email
me, I will send them the Limerick.
But I, I make 'em come up with
all sorts of silly songs about
being on the toilet and things.
'cause it's just, if you're
laughing and feeling stupid,
it's a bit hard to be tense.
Right?
Karen Rohlf: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: Anything I can think of.
But then what I'll also do is say,
if you can do spider fingers on your
horse's wither and imagine that you
were just massaging him a little bit as
you go along, you can still hold your
reins with your thumb on top mm-hmm.
And caress your horse and make him feel,
but you can also teach 'em to yield to
the outside reign that way actually.
Oh, look.
You know, and Yeah.
But make it pleasurable.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: This concept of joy and
pleasure, that it should feel good to
your horse, that it should feel happy.
It is missing.
Karen Rohlf: I mean, why else
are you doing this at these days?
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again?
Karen Rohlf: I said, why
else are we doing this?
I mean, this is all human folly,
and indeed, we're supposed,
supposed to be doing it for fun.
We don't, we're not fighting wars anymore.
I mean, this is, you know, I tell
myself all the time, I'm like, you
know, what's it worth to get my
horse to fancy PR on my property
around when nobody's looking like it?
It come on like this.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's an exercise.
Enjoy.
Yeah, yeah,
Karen Rohlf: yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And an exercise.
Joy is inherently worth
it for its own sake.
Provided the horse's sharing in that joy.
Absolutely.
And you're doing it together well, now
that you've reached this sort of all gust
position of being the car, Royal Highness,
Karen Rohlf: whatever that means,
Rupert Isaacson: carer ness.
Karen Rohlf: Actually, wait, I wanted,
I wanted just to say before you get onto
the important subject of me I just read
somewhere that the uk they're allowing
voice or they're going to allow voice.
And I'm really curious of
like, which words are they?
You like the, when you said like the
negatives, you're allowed to say, like,
I'm just so curious of how that's going
to be used, but it's really I mean, it
opens up to being able to use at least
soothing tones or, you know, absolutely.
That's the latest.
It's the lightest of aids.
Like, why not, how is that cheating?
Rupert Isaacson: Also the
most clearly direct of aids?
Because it's the aid that
anyone more or less can use.
Because I think if there's
anything that defines our
species, it's the larynx, right?
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: We, we are
called homo sapien sapiens,
which means the thinking ape.
But that's not a terribly good description
because anything with a brain thinks,
and some things have eight brains, like
oc, you know, octopuses or whatever.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So.
But what most animals vocalize
and some of them vocalize in a
very complex way, but we are the
ones who came up with Shakespeare.
We are the ones that do
rap, you know, storytelling.
That's us.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So for us to use our voice
comes so naturally to us.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why would we cut away?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The most powerful thing.
Karen Rohlf: I think.
So this'll be interesting to see how,
how it's used, but it, it's a, it's
a moving in a really nice direction.
I think.
So, anyway.
Good.
A little tidbit there.
Rupert Isaacson: I think the whole thing
is actually moving in a good direction.
I think it has to because it's,
Karen Rohlf: I was gonna say it has to.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
It's, you know, if it doesn't, it'll die.
Now that you've reached this position
where you have a platform and people
listen to what you say do you.
Are you being brought back
into the tournament world
now to help with these tools?
Because I mean, you are, you're
sitting there in Ocala, which
is, it's not quite Wellington.
Wellington is real belly of the beast,
but Ocala is not, not belly of the beast.
It's, there's a lot of pretty serious
high dollar, high money, high ambition,
you know, sport ridey stuff going
on from thoroughbreds to dressage
and jumpers and all Points and
Western and all points in between.
Who comes to you?
Karen Rohlf: I, you know, it's
students who love their horses
and want to learn what I'm doing.
So I ha I do have students that compete.
A student just did their
their horses first Pre St.
George.
It was horse that was given to
them because it was about to be put
down for extreme behavior issues.
Mm-hmm.
And, major.
Yeah.
Anyway, they just competed, so
I'm not anti-competition, but I,
I am here to spread the word and
help whoever would like to come.
I helped a young girl with a, with a
Grand Prix jumper, who did an amazing
job with her horse, who was trained
originally by a guy who dug a pit on
his property, would get the horses
in the pit and then beat them until
they figured out how to jump out.
And now she can do Grand Prix bridals.
So I help the people who are attracted
to my stuff and would like help in this.
I don't feel like it, I think at
first I felt this crusade of I'm
gonna go change the industry.
I, I feel as far away from the
horse industry, I don't feel like
I'm part of the horse industry.
Most of the horse industry I don't like.
And I think there's this inherent.
Problem in industry of money and
pressure, and I don't know the solution.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Karen Rohlf: I don't even know if
there should be a horse industry,
should there really be an industry
of breeding million dollar horses
and then they have to perform.
I don't know.
I, I just do, I am with
horses because I love horses.
I love the horses more than sport, and
I love the individual horse in front
of me more than horses in general.
And yeah, I'm, I'm happy for the
internet to be able to share this
and I'm happy for patients like this.
I just, in my part of my life, I'm, I'm,
it's a weird blend of, I really wanna get
the word out and I will help who I can
help and whoever would like this help.
But I really like peacefulness.
I.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Karen Rohlf: And I love my horses.
I have seven and I want to Yeah.
Spend time being my, I think my goal
for a long time as a professional
was to not live like a professional.
I'm like, I'm like, how come the
amateurs get to have all the fun
hanging out with their horses?
Yeah.
While I'm doing professional
horse trainer stuff.
So I live, you know, people say
they wanna come see my facility.
I'm like, it's my living room,
it's just my property and I have
my horses on it, and that's it.
'cause I like my horses to live free.
And if I have borders,
then they can't live free.
And yeah.
So I am, I, I am trying to spread
the message and the philosophy.
I have so much online access.
I will go yeah, I will teach anybody
who's interested in this stuff.
I'm finding it even a
little bit difficult to go.
Like you said, you stopped doing clinics,
like I find even expos and stuff like
that, I find it more and more challenging.
I'm like, I still feel like I'm gonna
have to go there and show something or
prove something or make some result.
And yeah, I think I, I am really
focused on, at and in the one hand
spreading the word far and wide.
And on the other hand, the moments
with the horses, I want it to feel
real and intimate and not like a show.
So
Rupert Isaacson: I think you put,
that's the word intimate, isn't it?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Because
Karen Rohlf: like you said, like I wanna
be able to make the decisions and be real
and not try to like demonstrate something.
So it's, I'm just, it's a funny place
and it's more in my head 'cause I'm
sure I can go demonstrate something.
But I'm trying to, I, I get think
just on the personal journey, part
of things I've been working really
hard to let go of my ego and then
I'm like, well, how do I do that?
And then do marketing and then
go put on a show for people.
Like, I just wanna be in the
moment and see what happens
and help, help the, the being.
You
Rupert Isaacson: can, you can
do it, you can do that, you
can do that if it's in service.
Mm-hmm.
So for example, as obviously I go through
that because when, when I stumbled
into this thing with autism, that we
really did stumble into something that
worked first, my son became verbal.
Verbal, and then it happened again and
it happened again and it happened again.
And then we realized there was a
structure to it and we started to
get the neuroscientist to explain it
and okay, we could replicate this.
And then I went through this real shit.
If we do that, I.
Then a people will throw 'em
mud at you and that's always
uncomfortable, but b you're gonna
have to get out there and do it.
And then I thought, yeah, but if I don't,
I'm a wanker because there are so many
parents like me standing in a living room
or a field lost not knowing what to do.
And if I happen to have stumbled into
something that works and I don't put
it out there in the public domain
for people to either use or not use
as they wish, then I'm withholding.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And given that, that,
that what I'm withholding is a way to
alleviate suffering, I don't actually
have the right to withhold it weirdly.
And I think that you are probably
a little bit in that position.
So if you found a way that addresses
this dressing of the horse thing
that takes the suffering out.
You kind of do have to put
it in the public domain.
Karen Rohlf: Well, yeah.
No, and that's where I, you know, I have
a lot of resources and, you know, one
of the online courses that we have, I'm
so proud of because it's, it's not just
material, but we do weekly calls, so
we're, you know, we're in conversation.
I think this is what, you know, there's
a, the world is bombarded with online
courses, but it's really the live support,
it's the community and the being able to
like, talk about what's happening and,
and help people with the thought process.
And, you know, this glo this more holistic
view because it's not just a technique,
it's in the context of the whole thing.
So, I mean, I have a huge community.
I've got instructors that help.
I have a lot of resources out there.
And that makes me really happy.
I love being on podcasts.
I'm presenting next week with a
group that was, is talking about the
historical, you know, perspectives
of cruelty and horse training.
And I was looking at that and I'm
presenting like the modern ethical,
I'm like, I just, this is, you
know, to bring this awareness.
People have the resources.
I think I'm, I think it's just
at this moment I'm trying to
balance that with my own personal
peacefulness and that's tricky.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: So that's just yeah, that's,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Well, it's always easier to
keep your ego in check when
you're not in front of anybody.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Which means that
you have to go get in front of
people in order to learn how to,
Karen Rohlf: to keep your ego.
Oh, yeah.
It doesn't count unless you're in the,
it doesn't count to be a, the, a prize
fighter if you never get in the arena.
No, I get that.
I have, I have, yeah.
I have been in public play, so it's just,
yeah, it's just a kind of a reshaping of.
You know how, yeah.
How I'm spending my time,
how I'm spending my focus.
And at the same time, you know,
we have a new course for the
Happy Athlete Training Scale.
We've got the sweet spot
of Healthy Biomechanic.
We got tons of stuff.
And and like I said, I love the, I
love the live conversation part of it,
because it's not just the technique,
it's the, it's the daily, you know,
when you're out there doing it and
then okay, it works and now your
horse is doing something different.
And how we think through that and how
we support the people's their mental
state through the process and yeah.
So it's,
Rupert Isaacson: you say we, is it.
Is it you and the team at this point?
Is it you and a main collaborator?
Is it, or is it when you use we,
are you referring more to your
community and the exchange of ideas?
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, a little,
a little bit of all of that.
I do have instructors, so I have
instructor in the Netherlands and then
three in the US and one in Canada.
And they, they do a lot of the coaching
calls for the, for the live calls, for the
sweet spot of healthy biomechanics course.
And they do clinics and we
get together and you know, so
there's continuing education.
So they're really helping
with the boots on the ground.
Boots on the ground, yeah,
hearts on the ground.
And, yeah.
And then I'm, I'm working with
hopefully developing something with,
there's a wonderful Hungarian sport
writer and she's being a pioneer and
introducing Bitless dressage in Hungary.
And so we're doing stuff together.
I've been
Rupert Isaacson: reading about this.
Yes.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, she's lovely.
So we're she's been through my
courses and she's just, yeah.
Wonderful.
So we're hopefully developing something
to bring the happy athlete training
scale to more people in a more
applicable way instead of just a concept.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Karen Rohlf: And yeah, so I, I really feel
a desire to spread the concept now
that I have the pieces in place
where people can learn to just have
these conversations and give people
a different way of looking at things.
And that more holistic
view is so important to me.
So that's why.
Super happy to be here.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna ask you to
go obviously to tell us a bit more about
your online resources 'cause a lot of
people are going to go check 'em out.
But before I do, can you tell me about
that horse on the wall behind you?
So for those who are listening, some of
you're watching on YouTube and you've
probably been, but like me wondering who's
that horse on the wall behind Karen and
why has she got that horse on the wall?
There must be a story
there, so let's hear that.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But for those of you
who can't, who can't see it, she's
riding, I presume it's you or someone
is riding a very lovely SC ball.
Mm-hmm.
What we, the bricks would call a SC
ball, but others would call a, a brown
and white pinto, but warm bloody.
Yeah.
Who looks very similar to
an ACO bred Dutch warm blood
Oldenberg cross mare that I had.
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Who
was jolly interesting.
Tell us about this horse.
Why is she on your wall?
Karen Rohlf: That is
Ovation and he is a paint.
It was a, his father was a jumper paint
horse, and his mother was a Hol Steiner.
And he was locally bred and yeah,
he was bred just around the corner.
And when I bought my property,
I didn't have a whole lot of
money left over, but he was just.
Just enough.
And I got him when he was three.
And he is, he's just lovely.
He's a goofball.
He's my magnificent goofball is what I
tell him because he's just powerful and
sporty and he's does everything in the
Grand Prix and he is a complete goofball.
Most people, if you see him, if you
see me on Facebook getting licked
in the face by a horse, it's him.
He regularly, after I tack him up, he'll
like grab his, his favorite traffic
cone and try to bring that with him
When I go ride, he'll pick up anything
from the ground when I ride him.
But he is turning 23 this year and I
feel like I'm just figuring him out.
He's collection did not
come easily for him.
He is a big, powerful mover.
A lot of pushing power.
Collection, not so much.
So I had to be really
clever in teaching him.
And I mean, I feel like just this year.
We were like, I, I told
him, I'm like, ovation.
'cause he's like a, he's a bit of a
brute, you know, he's just like raw.
He's a very physical kind of horse.
And I was like, dude, you're 23.
I'm now just past 60.
I was like, we, we need to enter the zen
master stage of our relationship together.
So I had to explain to him
what, like, what a zen, you
know, a dressage school master.
I was like, dude, you're the most
educated horse on the property right now.
Like, you're the zen master.
And so, yeah, so that's now it's like,
I feel like we're like in that like,
you know, the chef's kiss version
of dressage where he's just light
and he's really carrying himself and
powerful and, but his favorite thing
to do, his reward is extended trot.
He's like, gimme me the big stuff.
So yeah, he's, that's why he's on my
wall and he's I'm writing him in a rope.
He's in a rope halter right
here, so he's like bitless and
Rupert Isaacson: ah, I
guess he's fantastic.
I can't see from the angle 'cause he's
beautifully, he's beautifully round.
When you say you had to get
clever to teach him that he
could collect, what did you do?
Karen Rohlf: Well, like things
like, like when, you know, pee off.
So he has a big swingy hind leg.
Like, so, you know, as far as
his action, he can really swing
under with his hind leg, but not
necessarily articulate his joints.
So, you know, in doing some groundwork and
doing like school halt, when I first told
him school halt, he'd just like lean back.
But like the hawks wouldn't bend.
Like, what are you doing?
Like, you have to bend your joints.
So he'd, he'd be very engaged as far
as like his feet were under his body.
I'm almost say engaged, but
his hin feet were well under
his body, but he wasn't caring.
He just like push, push from those.
So I had this puzzle, I'm
like, ask him to school halt.
And he's just sort of
leaning back over his legs.
I'm like, you're gonna,
you're gonna sit down.
So not in a good way.
So I'd have to like start the school
halt and then I teach him to pick up his.
Back foot.
I was like, you know, those joints bend
and so we just do a little bit like rock
your weight back and like, you know, those
joints bend and teach 'em to pick it up.
And at some point he connected,
he went, oh, I can like bend
them when my weight's on them.
I like, yes.
Same thing, he's got a big
powerful hind end and not,
not that free in the shoulder.
So like, we first would start, you
know, trying to like lift the front
legs and he, like, I noticed when I
picked out his feet, if I picked up his
foot, he'd actually drop that shoulder.
I'm like, no, stay level or, you
know, so in doing like working on
like Spanish walk kind of stuff, I was
like, okay, I need to teach you to like
lift, you know, forget the extension,
just lift up through the shoulder.
And so we just played until I could,
he could like, oh my, I can do this.
And then when he was there, then
extend, and now he already knew how to.
And this hawk.
So, but I had to do a lot of
fiddling like that on the ground.
Literally going, your
body can move like this.
Did you know that?
And then, and then taking that into the
riding and, you know, you figured this out
because you went and studied with masters.
Who knew this?
I kind of had to figure out myself
'cause I didn't come from that
kind of dressage background.
But whenever I, he had injured
himself and it was a front leg injury.
And so when we got back to the stage
where, you know, they're allowed to move
more, and I thought, well, okay, it's a
front leg injury, so this is good news.
So that means they, I can collect them.
And I thought it'd be smart to keep
'em collected, not just bomb around.
And so we were just allowed to walk.
So I spent a lot of time at the
walk and being very particular.
About his balance and halt and then
back up and walk forward just like
these little moves until the dynamic
of energy through his body was such.
And so I could feel him really
collecting his walk and not
just getting jammed together.
And yeah, after, you know, doing
weeks of that and then I can
start riding, I'm like, holy crap.
He's like more collected than
before his injury because I took the
time to just fiddle and find that
dynamic, you know, get the dynamic
working and then adding power to it.
So, he really helped inform me about
the power of just seeing the dynamic,
seeing how the energy's flowing through
the body and, and being conscious
about where, what I'm adding power to.
Because he'll, he'll go
forward, you know, anytime.
But it's like I needed to, like,
let me organize it and, and
educate, educate his body to what
it, its possibilities could be.
And then he, he was like, mm-hmm.
Oh my God, my hind legs bend.
Like, yes, now you can pee
off and you can pirouette.
And, and Spanish wok was
very therapeutic for him.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
So he's just, he's just a
character that I just love.
He's so goofy and so powerful and
so resilient and and he's pretty,
Rupert Isaacson: can't
wait to come be him.
Yeah.
Hopefully I'll be later this year.
So
Karen Rohlf: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to
drop in, pay homage to him.
So listen, I, I feel that there
are points in the conversation we
haven't yet had time to touch on.
And as we approach the two hour mark,
what I think maybe we should do is if
you give all the resources now, the
online resources, all the plugs where
you can find you, how they can sign up
for your online stuff, how they can come
and learn, live with you and whatever.
And then what I'd like to do with
your permission is I'd like to have
a rematch of this conversation,
and I'd like to look at the use
of dressage for equine wellbeing.
You've, you've just been touching
on it, you know, in, in this, you
know, for example, how can the, you
know, the lifting of the shoulder
and the Spanish book be therapeutic?
You know, how can the pf.
Be therapeutic, particularly
as horses age, you know, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
And I think this isn't something
that is talked about much yet
within the dressage thing.
Again, I've had to, because
most of the therapy horses that
we use are old donation horses
that we have to yoga, right?
And so again, that perspective
luckily sort of came with the package.
But IS we all know that the current
relationship that the public has
with dressage is that it's, it's
not there for EQU wellbeing.
And the, that's a little bit like if we
were all suddenly, if, if yoga suddenly
became an Olympic sport and suddenly
everyone would be like dislocating
their shoulders and displacing their
hips, doing the very thing that is
supposed to prevent you from doing that.
You know what I mean?
It's, it's, oh yeah.
So with your permission,
could we, could we.
Have a second conversation this
year, another podcast where we
can talk about that because I,
I do think that would be useful.
I'd love it.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
I, I'd love it.
And it's, it's so important and I just
feel like, you know what you're just
saying, like, humans can ruin everything
by then having to compete, like I
met somebody who's like, their hobby,
their, their, you know, life passion
was, you know, orchids and then they're
talking about all the competitions.
So I'm like, you got what?
There has to be like a best orchid.
Like, what the hell?
Can't we just enjoy them?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Karen Rohlf: Anyway.
But yeah, that'd be fun.
Yeah, because we have lots of stories.
Rupert Isaacson: Give us,
how do people find you?
Tell us the, the names of your
courses, your websites, the lot.
Karen Rohlf: Awesome.
Well, if you, if I'm very googleable,
but if you go to dressage naturally.net,
you will find everything.
There's usually a little green
bar on the top that gives whatever
is currently you know, the, the
current thing that's happening.
But there's also a, a page called Learn
and that will list all the courses and
it, it lists all the online offerings I
have in kind of reference to that happy
athlete training scale of like, which
part of the scale does it focus on?
So there's lots to choose from.
The, if anybody wants to kind of,
the, the lowest price offerings
are my video classroom, which
is just the entire library.
And you can go muck around
and there's a free trial.
But a lot of people get lost and,
and maybe don't want a subscription.
But the other one I recommend people go to
is called How to Create a Happy Athlete.
And it's very concise and it goes through
that happy athlete training scale so
that you really get the whole concept.
And then I have like key exercises in
each section to, to help, help build that.
And so that's, that's my new favorite
introduction to kind of get the
nutshell without being overwhelmed.
And I just leads you through, I just
go through the modules and there's
a bunch of q recorded, Q and As.
Where you can hear me, you know, student
questions and then how I think, talk
through and explain the logic and how
I'm answering based on that scale.
So that's super fun.
And then twice a year we open our finding
the sweet spot of Healthy biomechanics
course which is six months of you get
lifetime access and then six months to
live weekly calls, which is super cool.
And that's gonna be
opening up later in March.
And that's for anybody who's
like, all right, I'm in.
We will hold your hand, we will walk you
through it, and we will talk to you every
week to make sure you don't get stuck.
So that's it.
And we, you know, when you get to
the website, if you look under the.
Contact us page or in, it's actually
the link is also on the learn page,
but we do free private consults, which
means you can get on the phone with
one of my instructors and my right hand
person and you can sit and just have a
private conversation and tell her what's
going on with you and your horse, and
she'll help point you to what she thinks
will be the best the best resource.
And we are in touch all the time, so
if you need to talk to me, you can.
But sometimes it's just in this internet
world, it's so nice just to talk to a
human and be able to like, explain things.
So we really wanna offer, you
know, the, the live support.
There's always someone you can talk to.
We welcome emails.
Yeah, just don't, don't be
shy about reaching out if you
have a question or a comment.
We always available
Rupert Isaacson: and the book.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, on the book
you can get to that from our shop.
It's called, you know, dressage Naturally
and it comes, the book itself comes with
three hours of video, which is super fun.
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well you
heard it lads, so go over there,
check it out, put your money down.
And we are gonna have Karen back on and
we're gonna talk about, I, I think what
we'll do is I have a second podcast called
Equine Assisted World, and I think that's
where we should have that conversation.
Okay.
Because sometimes, you know, we are
assisting Equines Equines at assisting us.
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that
Karen Rohlf: interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Look out for that one.
Please.
If you're listening and watching.
Karen, thank you so much.
This has been really educational and fun.
Well
Karen Rohlf: thank you.
Yeah, super fun.
And hey, will you come
on my podcast sometime?
Rupert Isaacson: I would
love to come on your podcast.
Karen Rohlf: Awesome.
We will, we will arrange that.
Then
Rupert Isaacson: shoot me an email or, or
a text and we'll do, yeah, we'll do that.
Okay.
Until the next time, my friend.
Karen Rohlf: All right.
Thanks.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
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