Montana Funk (00:13):
This is Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the A. A Young Lawyers Division and produced by Maureen Media. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today, Stefania Lessen joins me to talk everything networking. Stefania represents us and international insurers in cyber professional and directors and officers, liability, managing claims, regulatory investigations, and risk assessments. She specializes in coverage analysis, breach response and resolution strategies to minimize loss and protect client's interests. Listeners, I'm so excited for this episode and thank you so much for listening. Good afternoon, or I guess it's probably evening for you now, isn't it?
Stefania Lessen (01:02):
Definitely evening. It's six o'clock in New York.
Montana Funk (01:05):
Okay. See, I'm still on Mountain Time, so it's four o'clock for me almost evening, but I get to still call it the afternoon. So hopefully you were having a good evening over where you are. I just appreciate you being on the show today. Something we haven't spoken about really wholly on this show yet is networking and not just in tidbits, but actually just the path of networking from it's starting in law school through your career. And I think that that's something really important, right? Because a lot of us, I don't think we realize until we're in law school that we actually start networking ourselves in law school. So that's what we're going to be talking about today and I want you to start us off, take us off with just an introduction to what your law school experience was like and when you were first actually introduced to this concept of networking as a professional. Well still a student.
Stefania Lessen (01:55):
Yeah, I think that's a really important topic for law students and for new attorneys. So I'm really happy to talk about that today and thanks for having me. Of course. So I went to Pace, Elizabeth Hobbs School of Law. I actually started law school during the pandemic, so it was a very, yeah, I know it was such a weird time to do law school. I did my whole one L completely remote, which you can imagine the zoom fatigue was insane. So networking was difficult because I was completely remote. It was hard to form study groups. It was hard to make friends, it was hard to get to know professors. It was really difficult that first year. So going into two L, we were more in person and it made things easier. So I think I really took advantage of the fact that I wasn't remote anymore.
(02:56):
I went to as many on-campus events as I could to, I joined clubs, law review, moot court. I did anything I could possibly do to be in person interacting with other people. And I even joined local bar associations as a student member, which I think is kind of slept on with students. I don't think lots of students even know that they could join a local bar association as a student. It's usually free by the way, so if you can swing it, do it. I was part of the Westchester chapter and the New York City bar and they have different little groups within the bar associations that you could join and you could go to meetings and network. And it really opened so many different doors for me and it was actually very useful to be a part of a local bar association.
Montana Funk (03:57):
Don't quote me on this, but I don't think I actually recognized that we could become a bar member as a student until my third year. I think that's a great point because I think a lot of people who are listening probably don't know that either. Right. So I'm going to ask you a difficult question. I want to take it back. Obviously you had the Zoom one L year, which a lot of people who are listening didn't have, and a lot of people who are listening probably have a hybrid. Now, I'm not exactly sure how it works, but are you able to, if you were going to be back in that position now as now everything that you know, what is some advice you could offer to students or even maybe young professionals in their first year who are finding that a lot of their interactions are still on Zoom and how they can use those interactions when it is just like you and I on video and not in person, how can they put themselves out there and show their personality in that way when they maybe don't have that option to be in person as much?
Stefania Lessen (04:57):
Yeah, that's a hard question. It was very difficult in a classroom setting on Zoom with 70 participants, class members to stand out unless you were in the dreaded cold call. But there are also ways that you can stand out. Maybe it doesn't have to be in a class setting, but you can go to if your professor hosts one, like a session usually I remember at least my professors did. Usually the professors would host a weekly session to discuss the class, homework, whatever, anything you had questions, go to those sessions, chit-chat with your professor, ask that professor if they know anyone that would be interested in talking to you about something you're interested in. Or you could go to other events that they host. It doesn't have to be something about school. Put yourself out there. Go to those events. It's really important, even if you're just a body, I guess, and you're afraid, I think lots of law students are really afraid to network. But even if you're just a body and you just get yourself there, I think you've done half the job so you can make yourself stand
Montana Funk (06:18):
Out. I think that's a good point. Even just being somewhere, even if it's on Zoom, even if you're in a group setting, because like you said, I think a lot of law students, I know I was especially in the beginning, so focused on the fire hydrant of information that's being thrown at you that you're not even thinking about, oh, how do I make an impact already in the legal world? But you're right that just showing up, people are going to remember you. They're going to remember your face, your name, and that helps going into, like you said, if you want to do moot core or any of those groups or maybe even an internship
Stefania Lessen (06:52):
For sure. I can't even explain to you how many doors it opened up for me because I would go to one event and then I would meet someone who was practicing in a field I was interested in, and I would say, yeah, I'm really interested in this field. This is what I'm studying, blah, blah, blah. And it would just, maybe it wouldn't get me an internship, but it would get me a step closer. And that's a big deal.
Montana Funk (07:14):
Yeah, it is. And I keep throwing these BLEs at you and I'm going to throw another one at you, but for people who are maybe listening right now and they're like, why would I invest my time in that? Right. Why do you think it's important to network even starting off when you're not even in your career yet and then going through your career?
Stefania Lessen (07:31):
I think it's really important, even if you're just a student to start networking. Look, you might be a law student right now, and you might be saying, Hey, this is what I want to do. This is the field I want to go into. And you might be set on it, but you don't actually really know until you start practicing. And just because you have a plan A doesn't mean that plan A is always going to happen. Life happens, the universe happens. So you have to be ready when maybe things don't work out. And you also have to be open to other ideas and see, Hey, do I really like this or do I want to do something else? Does this kind of setting work for me? Does this kind of setting not work for me? It's all about figuring out where you want to be in the end. So why wouldn't you network and talk to people who are where you think you want to be and see what it actually is, because what's in your mind is not always reality. Right.
Montana Funk (08:29):
Very true. And if I think I am remembering correctly, I think you kind of had a journey where you were set on one area of law being I think if I'm correct, cyber law, and you are kind of doing that now, but in a different way. So can you, pulling on your own experience, explain to listeners how your perspective, what you were going to practice changed and how maybe your involvement in law school and in internships actually helped you when that change happened?
Stefania Lessen (08:57):
Yeah, totally. I thought out of law school, I was going into cyber and that I would be in cyber compliance and in a very corporate setting. And that's not what happened. I am practicing insurance law at a firm called Kissel Stratton and Wilmar. I'm very happy to be there. It's a great firm. I do have a cyber aspect to it, but it's on the insurance side instead of a compliance side. So that's the only difference. Well, not the only difference, but it's one of the differences and it's still cool. It's still neat and I still find it interesting, but things don't always happen, like I just said, as you want them to, sometimes life gets in the way of those plans and also maybe what you thought was a fit for you wasn't the fit for you. And I found myself really enjoying being at this firm. I have a great work-life balance, and it just is better for me overall.
Montana Funk (09:57):
Things change.
Stefania Lessen (09:58):
Things change, and they work out the way they work out.
Montana Funk (10:00):
They're not always for the worst. I used to do civil practice. I did a little bit of insurance litigation as well, and I also really liked it and did a lot of things and I learned so much and then I switched over to criminal defense and it's a completely different world. But you're right that it's so important. And I like how you said that it's important to put yourself out there even in places that you don't even think at that time matters because down the road it might, right. And you might not know that yet.
Stefania Lessen (10:26):
Totally. And you never know when you'll see someone again either. Very true. And you'll because the legal world, I have to say, as big as it is, it's
Montana Funk (10:35):
Also very small, very, very
Stefania Lessen (10:37):
Small.
Montana Funk (10:37):
It's small. It is small. And I want to touch a little bit going from the law school angle into an actual career. So I want take a quick break, but when we come back, let's dive into what it looks like going into a legal career. So we were talking a lot about lawyers and how in your one L two L three L, the networking aspect isn't at the forefront of our mind and how it actually is really important. And I want to make sure we also touch on how you then transition from graduating law school to then, okay, now I actually have to network and actually put myself out there for jobs. And is there any advice that whether it's going back and telling yourself or telling maybe a listener who's in that position right now or they're going to be in their three L year and graduating and worried about that, what is some advice you would give them about networking themselves to stand out as a new graduate? Because obviously a lot of people are going to be networking as a new graduate, so what can make people stand out?
Stefania Lessen (11:42):
I think what will make people stand out is honestly, it's a very New York thing to say, but they're hustle. How you go out and how you market is important and you need to be strategic about it. So if you are interested in a certain legal field, you should market with people in that field. If you are interested in a certain firm, you should market with people like network and market yourself with people at that firm. So I think it's about being smart and playing it smart as well. I mean, you can just cast a really wide net and you can shoot your shot on LinkedIn and send tons of people messages and you'll probably get advice. People will respond to you, but it might not be where you want it to be because you've cast such a wide net that now you don't know who's going to respond to you if they respond to you or even if it's going to be something that you're interested in.
(12:48):
So something that I did was I went back to my law school and I said, Hey, do you know any alums in this field that I could talk to about practicing here? How I should go about looking for associate positions and things like that? And I found a couple of people who actually were very, very helpful and it worked out for me. And I think honestly, if you want to stand out, you've got to be open and yourself, but also not afraid to network. I think law students are actually very bad at networking, and that's because it's not something that's focused on during law school. We go to class, we do our homework, our readings, we take a final and then we just stress about it. And that's really it. There's nothing that helps us with networking. I mean, you can even have professors to tell you, yeah, you should network, but they don't tell you how to network and they don't really know that there's a formula or a science to it. I just think that the more you put yourself out there, the better you'll get at it. You'll find the pathway that works for you.
Montana Funk (14:09):
I really like, I mean the fact that you went back to your actual law school and was like, Hey, look, this is what I want to do. What can you help me with? Can you give me any ends? And not easy necessarily ends, but just any ideas of who I can talk to. Because I think something important that, as you were saying earlier, law school students can be really scared and nervous to do that and not good at networking, but you don't have to become this different person. You don't have to act like this area of loss so well, because I think that kind of loses your credit a little bit, right? And like you were saying, it's okay to reach out and say, Hey, look, I need some help getting connections and I need some help. And just being yourself, right? That's so important when networking to know that you kind of have to be like, okay, I'm not going to be the professional in the room, and that's okay.
Stefania Lessen (14:55):
Yeah, that's totally fine. I mean, it's kind of silly to think that other people would think that you are the professional in the room when they know that they're talking to a law student, they know their audience, and you do too. And that's okay. You don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You just have to be the most interested person. And I think when you show the person you're talking to, how much interest you have in that practice in their firm or whatever it is that makes you stand out in a really good way. And when you talk to people just ask for help and not really looking for something in return, that goes a long way too. And you'll find that people really want to help you, especially if you're an alum or a recent graduate from the same school they went to. It's really funny, but I found that that's what happened.
Montana Funk (16:00):
No, I think that's a really good point. And I never even considered that to be brutal, honest, but something I know that our class had at least was we had our own group, our own graduating law group. And still to this day, there are people that I went to school with putting in there like, Hey, does anyone know a lawyer that does this in this area? And you're right that it's the legal world is like you said, big, but it's very small also. So I think that that was a really good point you made. And I'm just curious, working in New York, which is obviously a massive area, do you think there's any differences that you could think off the top of your head between networking in an area like that versus networking maybe in a smaller bubble or people maybe who are listening and they're like, I'm in a rural area, I don't know how I'm going to network out here. Any advice you could think of that you'd have for those people listening?
Stefania Lessen (16:51):
That's a good question because New York is New York. I didn't consider how many lawyers were in New York. That wasn't a consideration for me when I was networking, but I understand what you mean. I can see how it could be harder for students in more rural areas or just a smaller city even. And I think that a really good place to start would be, I'm going to say it again, a local bar association. They want student members to sign up because they want you to sign up as an attorney. They want the member, they want the membership, of course. So I think that would be a really great starting point, even if that local bar association, because if you're from a small city or a small town, it might be a really small bar association. They might not have groups that you are really interested in, but they might have a young lawyers group or they might have a mentorship program where they could match you with somebody who might know someone else in the field that you're interested in or in the practice that you're interested in.
(18:08):
And that actually is what happened to me in Westchester because I joined the Women's Bar Association as a student member, and they didn't have a cyber group, but they had an IP group, and I was also part of the mentorship program, so I was matched with an IP attorney. She mentored me and she also opened the door for me to meet people in cyber practicing doing what I was interested in at the time. So I think that would be a really good start. I know I said it before and I'm saying it again, but I think it's a great place to start, whether you're from a big city or not.
Montana Funk (18:47):
I think that that is a really good place to start too, because I think unfortunately a lot of it's overlooked. I think that people, at least from my experience and what I saw was you hear, oh, another group I need to be a part of. Okay, well what does that actually entail, right? I'm already so overwhelmed, whether it be I'm sitting for the bar or I'm a one year associate at a new firm, but you're right, there are so many resources out there that we don't know about if we don't put ourselves out there. And something you'd mentioned earlier was LinkedIn and sending messages to people on LinkedIn, which was actually really interesting to me because I think the amount that people are on social media these days is crazy. And I think you had suggested reaching on LinkedIn, there are ways that you can even leverage yourself in social networking areas. And I guess what I'm looking for is do you have any ideas or advice, because I liked that idea about the LinkedIn for maybe people who are like, okay, maybe I'm part of the bar association already, or I want to do more and I'm not huge on social media. How can they leverage that side of things to actually network themselves in an online form?
Stefania Lessen (19:56):
So I'm also going to plug the Bar Association I'm a part of. So I'm a member of the Queens County Women's Bar Association. I'm a state delegate. We talk about social media all the time and trying to get young lawyers or law students interested in our bar association because social media is really, really important with these younger lawyers, and I'm one of them, I'm on social media all the time, whether it's LinkedIn or Instagram, whatever. I think LinkedIn professionally is a really good place to start beef up your profile, ask if you can help, if you're part of a local bar association, if you can go to meetings, if you can help beef up that local bar association's profile, that's a way to get involved. And honestly, you'd probably be better at it as a young lawyer because a little bit more about tax than some of these older attorneys.
(20:58):
Not to throw shade, but let's be real. The younger attorneys, the students, they probably can figure it out a little bit better. And it's something that we talk about all the time. The Bar Association I'm part of, we mark it on social media. We post our events on social media all the time. We literally just posted save date for an event that we're doing next week, buy your tickets. Here's the link. It's incredible how much we rely on social media, but go on LinkedIn and if you want to go on a local bar associations page and see who's part of that page and then message somebody, I think that's really smart too, because now you've got double the advantage of getting in touch with somebody and them responding to you because you're interested in that bar association. You're interested in their fields. And honestly, as much as the younger generation is on social media, so is the older one now, because they know that's how they can interact with us.
Montana Funk (22:08):
Yeah, no, you're 100%. And kind of the funny reverse of having to do Zoom Law School is that that also kind of took off, I feel like even more use of socials to even run law firms. And now we have AI we've talked about before, so there's so many avenues that listeners, I want to know, they have to get themselves out there and they don't have to feel like, oh, well, I am just another number at this law school. Or, oh, I'm one of a hundred candidates here. There are so many ways to put yourself out there. And I think one last thing I want to make sure we touch on in this episode when we come back after our break is just kind of now let's say you have a job. You're out in the world now, you're a professional. How to actually continue just maintaining that.
(22:53):
What do you do now? So let's take a quick break, come back and then talk about how you just continue to grow as yourself and your network before the break. We've talked kind of through the whole process of law school, young lawyer, young professional, and something I want to make sure that we do touch on as well is, okay, let's say you're now a professional. You've been there for a couple of years, but you're still maybe in your first five years, networking is still important. Even if you love the firm you're at and you're not switching, why do you think it's important to continue to still expand your network even if you know that the place you're at is where you want to still be for quite some time?
Stefania Lessen (23:37):
I think it's important to network, even if you want to be with your firm forever, let's say, but it's easy to get to a certain point and now you think, oh, I've grown my network. This is fine. I don't need a bigger network. But you never know who you might need in the future, who might need you. And it's really important to continue to make those connections and have those relationships. You could meet a new client or someone could refer your services, or you could just join a new group that you didn't think about or didn't know about and have a hobby or an extracurricular, something that you enjoy. I think it's like learning. You should never stop networking because you never know what will come out of it.
Montana Funk (24:29):
A lot of the times we can be so wrapped up in just maintaining the relationships we have within our job that you forget that there are still things in the outside that you still want to have good relationships for. Like you said, a hobby or even get a client or just down the road you have a case and you're like, I need a favor. And a person, whether it's an expert or whether it's a judge. Right. Totally. So I really like that you said that even if it's a forever thing, you should never stop networking. There's just so many more areas than just trying to get the job. That networking helps and something too that it's kind of the same thing that we've gone back and forth in. But just talking about how you've said, putting yourself out there, continuing to do these things, reaching out, is there anything that you can think of if you had to go back and tell yourself a couple of years ago that, or even a person listening that you would say is an absolute no-no to you when it comes to how you network?
Stefania Lessen (25:22):
Oh, that's a hard question. I don't know if there are any absolute no-nos. Okay. I think for networking, if you're going to do it, the absolute no-nos are like, don't dress casually. You don't have to be very formal, but you need to look put together, right? It's a very old saying, but the saying is, you dress for the job you want, not for the job you have, right? So you dress for the job you want, you want to look put together just neat. It shows that you care about your appearance. You likely care about other things too. And I think it's really important to put your best foot forward. So just don't show up in sweats or in jeans. I know that lots of lawyers dress casually. I dress casually too. It's normal, but you never want to go to an event looking too casual. It just doesn't send the right message, especially when you're looking to meet people and market yourself, because that's what networking is. You marketing you and your brand, right? Whatever it is. So I think the absolutely no, no is don't dress down.
Montana Funk (26:42):
No, I actually agree with that. And I like that because what I was thinking in my head was acting inappropriate online in a social media sense, right? Putting
Stefania Lessen (26:51):
Swear. Oh yeah, that's terrible
Montana Funk (26:52):
Words. Yeah, right, exactly. That's awful. Don't do that either. Yeah, but you're right, because it's the same idea of you need to, you're kind of marketing yourself. You are the brand and what do you want to be? And you want to present yourself in a respectful, professional way. And that's exactly like you said, don't show up in sweats the same way that you wouldn't show up to a bar band and be wasted out of your mind and swearing all over the place. Right?
Stefania Lessen (27:16):
Oh, for sure. And if sorry to cut you off, but if you are somebody who does like to go to, because lots of events happen at bars or there's alcohol being served, if you're somebody who likes to drink, you need to have an X amount of drink maximum. You never want to get too sloppy, you don't want to be drunk. You need to be very coherent and you need to present yourself in a nice way. So just like dressing nicely is one way to do it. Not behaving a certain way is another way to do it. So for me, I know I have really, really a one drink maximum if I drink. I'm a very casual social drinker. It's not something that I usually do. So sometimes I don't even have a drink when I'm networking because it's not something I normally do. And I also know I don't handle it well. So why put myself in that situation?
Montana Funk (28:11):
And I think that the use of the term, no-no, right? It comes off so scary and harsh, but I say it in a way that a lot of the things, like you said, we don't learn this in law school and you don't know these things in law school, and it's true. And the littlest thing, I really like the way you said it. You are marketing yourself as the person you want to be, and the littlest thing can set that off. So with what's in your control with things like that, I think are so important. So I appreciate you helping elaborate on that. I know no-no comes off so harsh and scary, but it's really not meant to be, right?
Stefania Lessen (28:43):
It's just No, it's not. I mean, I think the way you said it was cute, so I don't think it was super scary. And I don't think dressing up or not having too many drinks is a mean thing or a scary thing. It's a very manageable thing. We can all do it.
Montana Funk (29:01):
Yes. And still you can be yourself and you can
(29:05):
Carry yourself in a certain way without having to feel like you have to go over the top. I think that that's a big thing that we all want and that this whole association and young lawyer rising is all about, is just also that you can be yourself in all of these situations and you don't have to try to be someone else, your brand and just being true to yourself and putting yourself in an environment where you feel confident about yourself, you, you've done what's in your control. And then just letting the rest, kind of like you said, put yourself out there and just let it go. Just try.
Stefania Lessen (29:35):
Yeah, let it go. And what comes back to you will come back to you.
Montana Funk (29:39):
Yeah. I love that. Okay, last question for you. I actually should say two. I have two questions, but one's a softball. So the last question I want to ask you is, it doesn't have to be about networking, but one piece of advice you could give our listeners just in general about developing themselves as a young lawyer, young professional, if you could say one thing that you would do to help them through it.
Stefania Lessen (30:02):
I think that one thing you should do as a young lawyer and as someone developing yourself is to take breaks. It's really hard in law school, and I found it especially hard when I was in law school because I spent so much of it online to know when to stop. You are not a machine as much as you think you are, you will burn out. And there's got to be a point where you say, okay, yeah, I need to take a break. And it's really hard, especially when you're remote, to shut it off because it's so easy to be on all the time. But it's important for you to take a break, connect with things outside of the legal field that you like, that make you happy, because then you'll go back and you'll be happy studying or in the workforce, and it just makes so much more sense than to constantly be on and to be miserable. So take breaks. I'm not saying neglect all your responsibilities, don't do that, but take a break when you need a break, it's going to be so impactful in the long run.
Montana Funk (31:12):
I love that advice. You are not everyone listening. You are not just a lawyer. You are also the person outside of that. So
(31:19):
I love that. I think that we're working towards a trend more of this life balance with work, and I think it's one of the best things that's come out of the last couple of years, honestly. And CO was this work-life balance because like you said, I mean you're going to burn out if you do that, and then your work's going to be impacted. So that is so important. Just tell our listeners where they can find you if they want to reach out to you and maybe either networking or reach out for some mentorship or any questions.
Stefania Lessen (31:48):
Yeah, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn. My full name is Stephania Maria Lessen, L-E-S-S-E-N. So you can find me there. You can find me on Instagram, you can find me on Facebook. I am a young lawyer, so I have all the social media. You're like, I'm
Montana Funk (32:05):
Everywhere.
Stefania Lessen (32:07):
I don't know if I can share my LinkedIn with anyone, but if I can, I'll do that with you, Montana, and then we can share it with the listeners. But yeah, feel free to reach out. I'm so happy to chat with you if you want to chat. And that's it.
Montana Funk (32:22):
Well, thank you so much, and we can put your LinkedIn link in our bio, so we will definitely do that. And thank you for joining. Like I said, I think this is first of all also a really fun conversation. It's not something we've really touched on fully in this just young lawyer rising the journey of the last couple of years I've been on it. So it's an important conversation. It's not meant to scare anyone, but it is meant to help people because like you said, it's not something we learn in law school. It's something that is so important through our career. So thank you so much for harping on your own experiences and being willing to share those as well as just giving the advice that I think is really needed and helpful. So thank you.
Stefania Lessen (32:57):
Oh, I thank you, Montana. Thank you for having me. And it was such a fun conversation to have.
Montana Funk (33:03):
Well, listeners, that was our show. Thank you as always for listening. And if you like what you heard today, you know where you can find us. Until next time, I'm your host Montana Funk, and you've been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the A Young Lawyers Division and produced by Maureen Media.
