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The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
Ep09_UnderstandMyselfPt1
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[00:00:00]
Liz Herl: Welcome back everyone.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Hi guys. What's welcome back?
Liz Herl: Yeah, welcome back. So we're gonna jump right into it today I am gonna do a quick highlight that we're gonna jump.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, this is this is a big one I might have to break it up, right?
Liz Herl: Oh, we may have to break this one up because it is intense Decided to
Tim Caldwell: look at look at all that.
Yeah all that research. We took some tests.
Liz Herl: We took some tests Three tests each, right? We [00:01:00] did. We did take three tests each and we wanted to learn more about how our personalities affect our whole lives like our person because we I think we are under constant ridicule of self. So maybe figure out why we are the way we are.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, tell them tell them what tests we took.
Liz Herl: Well, the one we're gonna dissect today, which is kind of fun and we would welcome. Dr. Peterson to review this is understand myself. That's the exam that he created with his partnerships of individuals and it has a lot of young 12 archetypes in that, in that aspect of it.
And we're not going to get to all those we also did. Carl Jung's 12 Archetypes.
Tim Caldwell: Two, two similar tests. Two similar tests. Jungian fashion, right? Yes. Style.
Liz Herl: And, so we're not going to be able to, because we just spent an hour and a half going through this, and so that
Tim Caldwell: we have more than that. We have more than that.
I don't know. Taking them, the [00:02:00] analysis and then our back and forth between them, we picked it apart pretty good.
Liz Herl: Right, right, right. And so where we're going to start is with this one, because we don't want it to be too overwhelming. And the idea around this, our personality affects everything about our physical and mental health, I mean.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. Kudos to Dr. Peterson who we're very much in awe of these days. I, I liken him to a modern day Socrates in many ways, but we appreciate the fact that we have tests like this. There's a skeptical side towards many of these tests that are being offered up, and we don't view, I don't, and I don't encourage others, don't view this as a giant fortune cookie.
Right, right. This is, this is
Liz Herl: Oh, well we get into it. You saw, I got pretty We do. fired up.
Tim Caldwell: We do. And we're even going to do, you know, we'll even disclose that you took his test twice because I did take it twice. I challenged you to the fact that, wait a second, I want you to retake the test. [00:03:00] Just because I saw some things that I agreed with and you saw some things that you sharply disagreed with, so I said retake the test.
Now in fairness, in a scientific format, it would be nice if you took, for instance, if we were to suggest take a test like this. Take the same test, one test a day, but five, take the same test five times. And then in that, you're able to then, without looking at the results of each test, grade it, go through the next one, grade it.
Now take your scores and average those scores and see what you get. Now I would very much say that it would be a far more scientific sample than to just a one time shot. But, You do pay for these. Yeah. Yeah, you do pay for these. They are 10. They are 10. And they're available.
Liz Herl: But they're worth it.
Absolutely. I don't think that it was what I think it's important to talk about why I did decide to initially retake the test is because when I got my [00:04:00] results, I was like, this doesn't seem to, like. It's the way the assessment is set up, it's it's opposite of when it's a strongly agree, agree, uncertain, it's plot, it's switch.
Tim Caldwell: It's a bubble fill in format, right? And on one test it shows it's agree to the left, disagree, highly disagree to the right. Now you take the other exam and that flips. Now even if there's a momentary hiccup, if you mis-mark, and that's why I challenged you and you saw change, right?
Liz Herl: Well, yeah, I absolutely saw a change But what's important to know is that we had taken other exams that that that's exactly their format was opposite of this one. So my brain was kind of like I don't know. Nonetheless,
Tim Caldwell: but you know also too is that there's a disclosure in the beginning of the test This is the format that tells you don't take this when you're in a rush.
Don't take it when you're hungry. Don't take it when you just had a fight with your boyfriend or your significant other or your dog got ran over. [00:05:00] That's not a good time to take this test. Totally not. Take it when you're settled down.
Liz Herl: Because I need to self evaluate in a crisis moment.
Tim Caldwell: Exactly. Just take it, take it in a time when you have some time to yourself.
So let's get going here.
Liz Herl: All right. So we're gonna really, I think this is such an honesty moment for you and I because we're going to reveal all of our results to everyone and
Tim Caldwell: Are we? Okay. I'll sum. Sum. I'm, I'm more, I will be open, but we'll
Liz Herl: Well, your openness, we'll get to that. I know. I know. So, we're gonna go over, okay, so the big five personality models are,
Tim Caldwell: Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Neuroticism, and Openness.
So those are the big five. Now they, they each have subcategories.
Liz Herl: For Agreeableness, the subcategory is?
Tim Caldwell: It's Compassion and Politeness. Conscientiousness, is industriousness and orderliness. Extroversion, is enthusiasm and assertiveness. Neuroticism, is withdrawal and [00:06:00] volatility. Openness, intellect and aesthetics.
Liz Herl: Right. So those are the, we're going to kind of break those down in a little bit and just review what we got and what they say.
Tim Caldwell: I take the time, it's just my way of compartmentalizing those things in my brain. Taking a post it note, writing down my scores and this. We're not in competition, we're, what we're looking for is, how does it apply and do you think, well, that seems pretty, I mean, there are things on here like, oh my gosh, that's me to a, to a T.
And there's other ones on here where, I wrote in my margins, ouch. Yeah. That punches you right in the gut.
Liz Herl: I wrote, absolutely not. But. Yeah, you did. I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah. But. That's okay. That's okay. So, we'll explore that. That's exactly right. And be kind even though it's going to be challenging. We will.
Yeah. So, we're going to start with agreeableness. Okay. Yeah. So, I got 77. Yeah. And then we'll talk about those percentages, what that means.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, right. So all of the numbers [00:07:00] represent a percentile. So you got a 77, which puts you relatively high. And it's how this is as a percentile as you walk into a room of 100 people.
If you were a 77, there's only 23 above you. Right. Right. So it means that you are relatively high in that crowd of, of of agreeableness. I got a 46, which means if I walk in a crowd, more than half of the crowd is way more agreeable than me. That checks out. Yeah, whatever. So, I think I'm a very agreeable But the point being, the point being is We are careful to make sure that people understand that you clearly define what that means, right?
And, and it does, right? It'll break it down for us, right? So explain to the folks what that means then.
Liz Herl: Agreeableness is a very complex trait with marked positive and negative elements.
All along it's just distribution, excuse me. Because of this, higher scores and lower scores need to be explained at the same time. [00:08:00] People in high agreeableness are nice, compliant, nurturing, kind, I'm not going to skip over that one because that's not me, but trusting, and
Tim Caldwell: conciliatory. But you are. You don't think you are.
But go ahead.
Liz Herl: And now is this in a line? I just want you to know because these, these aren't always the same because your scores are different than mine. Yeah, right. So but right now we're in a what I'm reading what your states.
Tim Caldwell: So anytime you have a different score and you look at this if you're comparing side by side. This is a description of my score.
She has a description of her score. So mine is 46 which would mean it's a complex trait. It's marked with positive and negative elements Because of the higher score and lower scores, they need to be explained at the same time. Very similar. However, because of their tendencies to avoid conflict, they often dissemble and hide what they think.
Liz Herl: First when I was reading this it's really kind of, vulnerable when you start looking at, at yourself at this. And that's why I'm like, I really want [00:09:00] to caution people to be very compassionate towards self when you're looking at this. And there is compassion and Because you want ideally really good things about your personality.
Right. But when you get to avoid conflict and hide what they think, I'm like, if I were to be honest, I truly do that. I do avoid conflict. Yeah. And hiding what I think avoids the conflict, honestly. It's like, well, I'll just keep that to myself because it's just not worth it.
Tim Caldwell: To continue with mine because yours are relatively high, mine are low.
Mm hmm. Right out of the bat, it indicates People with disagreeableness, they're not so nice. They're stubborn, they're dominant, they're harsh, they're skeptical, competitive, and extreme, even predatory. That's nice to know. However, they tend to be straightforward and even blunt, so you know where they stand.
That I would say is a quality I do possess. I do try to speak my mind when I think it's right. But I'm not so nice. I think I'm a nice guy. I'm not sure. We'd have to, we have to go through that, right?
Liz Herl: Right. I think that again, it's relative [00:10:00] for situations and experiences and things that we encounter on a daily basis.
It's not like you're walking around with a huge chip on your shoulder.
Tim Caldwell: Right, right, because of my level of agreeableness I'm somewhat cooperative. I uh, warm to others fairly quickly and I'm I have a great consideration for other people.
They're also pretty tolerant inter, interpersonal communications and situations. Meaning I, I can do it but as we go through this stuff and we describe other elements. These things twist and they go back and forth. It's a scale.
Liz Herl: It's a little bit of a rollercoaster, right?
Tim Caldwell: It's, and there's just some interpretation, but there's a scale and that's why they break them into subcategories, too.
Because this plays into neuroticism and other things, those other key facets. It can become kind of complicated, but we're just gonna roll through this, what we had. Then we will pick it apart and see. I
Liz Herl: don't wanna Yeah. Make it too complic.
Tim Caldwell: It can get complicated. It can, because we, we, we sat we [00:11:00] have about three hours into this easily.
Yeah. Easily, easily, easily. Tell me more about yours.
Liz Herl: Well, I'm pretty cooperative and warm and considerate. Okay. They're likely to look for even, or look for, and sometimes. I always look for the best in others. That's something that I always try and do and help people see that. I do not like seeing people's feelings.
They're, they're, when their feelings are heard, I can acknowledge that and I don't care for that. And I do prefer peace and harmony. I'm not a hippie, but I do prefer peace and harmony.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, well, nothing, nothing to matter with that. Mine indicates that I'm I'm forgiving and I'm flexible and gentle and patient.
I would hope so as a doctor that I possess those kind of at least bedside manners. I can be quite good at bargaining. I mean, I am. As a businessman, I'm quite good at bargaining. I like to get the I like to get the most expensive thing as cheap as I can, but more importantly, I want it to always be a win win win.
And I like, I especially like to negotiate for people who've been stuck in negotiations, [00:12:00] right? I like to intervene and go, hey, let's, let's step back here, take a little, use a little De Bono and Bertrand Lomphy lateral logic here. Let's put ourselves in the middle and go, hey, what do you need, and what do you need, and let's find let's find common ground where it's win win win, yeah.
Liz Herl: Well, I'm pretty forgiving. It says somewhat on here. And accepting, flexible,
and I, I don't care for the word pity. It says they tend to feel pity for those who are excluded, punished, or defeated. Tend to I it's probably just picking over something that you know the word but I do not like it when I see that people are excluded for no reason or just out of cruelty for whatever reason.
So those things I don't care for. Well I want to jump down to a little bit I was going along so I going along thinking well Yes, this is me. This is especially when it's favorable. And we had to pull this apart because they may also find it somewhat difficult to engage in arguments and may even avoid discussions with less agreeable people.
At first I was [00:13:00] like, absolutely, I will meet an argument or a discussion or a disagreement. but Upon reflection with you, I said, you know, really, when I think about this, I size up my individual that I'm encountering. And I call that what it is, a greater negative or a positive trait. What is the potential result of this?
Is there going to be a resolve? Do I feel like I'm able to, you know, speak clearly to this individual and they're going to be able to understand what it is that I'm trying to get across? Or are they such a disagreeable individual that it's fruitless for me? And I'm just like, you know what? It's really not.
And I definitely do that. I do that. I'm like, you know what? It's fine. Yeah, you can just think you're right in your world and that's fine.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. And again this is a description of what this test may reveal about us. Mm hmm. And in the, in the real world, interpersonal communication and interaction, those things will vary situation to situation, person to person.[00:14:00]
You may not be in the mood to put up with anybody's crap that day, or you may be very irritated for something else. And I don't, I really don't want to pile on, so hey, you just believe in what you want to believe whatever, have at it. I'm going to go over here and do my thing. Though, that's, that's just how we do it, but I do like the description.
I, I notice that at the end it has to do with, Less agreeable people. Less agreeable people, right? Which is what I spoke to. So we've had conversations where we bounce, it's, we're volleying, right? We're back and forth and we're trying to keep it even. Every so often I'll try to give a, give you a hard spike and you need to return that and you'll do that to me too, but it's that pushback where we have a valid discussion, right?
That's what everyone needs is that sometimes we need a good push. We need, we need to have somebody put some pressure on us so that we can crack through and go into these new discussions.
Liz Herl: We absolutely have had constructive, critical conversations that are very challenging. But, with the understanding that the individual wants to, for me, and that's one of the [00:15:00] things when I'm talking about this, when I state, for me, my personal review of this is how I'm evaluating this, right?
Right. That's what you're speaking to. When an individual does this, she'll ideally do the same thing. I can speak to myself and say, Oh, this is where I tend to do this. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: When you're trying to discuss stuff like this.
What you're trying to do is establish ground rules and go, Hey, look, we're going to try to explore this truthfully. Right. And we do not have to agree. Right. But we're going to try to find some truth in this. And you be as open minded as you possibly can and entertain these types of things. And if we get to some type of impasse, we just move on.
And if you'd like to come back and revisit, we'll revisit a different frame of mind. One thing I wanted to point out about mine is that because of my low score, what they call low scores, I'm under 50, I'm 46, they I possess, I typically possess traits, I'm less prone to sacrifice medium and long term stability [00:16:00] for the function and sake of short term peace.
Mm hmm. Right? I got the same. Yeah. What that spells out and I'm For you. For me. Mm hmm. Is quite frankly, my being disagreeable. I'm going to stand my ground when it comes to the point where, hey, I can do this now and be comfortable and we'll handle that later. Well, I am not going to kick that can down the road if I see that that can just gets bigger and bigger and I'm kicking it uphill.
Handle the problem. Handle it now while it's small. Jordan always says it's far easier and it's a heck of a lot more convenient to wade into your problem now and slay the dragon when he's little than to when he's this giant monster. And I am that way. I very much am that way. I encourage everybody to do that way.
Especially on the medical or the physical side, we have a chance to Correct a problem now, while it's small. Take those actions. Don't wait until we're pressed up against the wall, and now I have to, because quite, quite [00:17:00] frankly, and in all likelihood, your options are now diminished. Right? Now I have to do this.
I have to do, I have to follow some course or action. I wouldn't even have been entertained before, but now maybe it's a life saving event. Take on those problems now. Financial, whatever that is.
Liz Herl: When, when you phrased it that way, I guess I, I would say mine, I guess mine wasn't in the same because this said that I tend to avoid or to reduce conflict and I'm tempted to sacrifice the medium to long term stability for function for the sake of a short term peace.
If I can settle this down for a minute that there's some regulation there. Yes. But in the long term, how, how does that fare for me? Right, right. And I can definitely say I've done that.
Tim Caldwell: In the scope, in the scope of your practice, don't let me put words in your mouth, but in the scope of your practice, we sometimes banter about the fact that modern day psychology or behavioral stuff is we're going to meet those people where they are.
Okay, but [00:18:00] ideally it's not to keep them there It's to try to move them on. Yeah, absolutely. But if they are in a place that's really tough, maybe I need to quell the storm. Maybe I need to knock it down a little bit and that may be a description of that is okay. Let's not address medium long term yet.
Let's just get you calm down and then let's get you into the rhythm I embrace that too when people face change is that hey Let's just start a one habit at a time and right so I can understand that I can. Mine also doesn't allow me It tells me that I am prone to handle those situations and not let them stack up. Which is true I
Liz Herl: apparently like to accumulate mine.
Tim Caldwell: Oh, you do, you do. there's a kind of a joke in the Navy about I don't want to go fight this fire. Let's just let it burn down to the waterline and we'll talk about it. Well, it doesn't make much sense, does it? The idea is, go handle the problem. Maybe it's a bunch of problems.
Small leak, loose nut. Fix those problems. I don't like them to stack up because pretty soon It's a big leak and it's missing [00:19:00] nuts and it's missing, right? Look, take care, take care of that stuff in what we would call almost a maintenance type of schedule in our lives, right? Yeah, I think that's important.
Liz Herl: No, I absolutely and I think that it's interesting how we have this even as we're discussing the differences where you're willing to meet this and I'm maybe willing to have Just momentary piece that this goes right into the difference of men and women. Women are higher in agreeableness than men. Yeah, and I think that just because of keeping the waters calm and keeping things consistent and okay I mean there is that where men tend to have maybe that more, you know, assertive piece of them of finding that Yeah.
Clarity from their perspective or whatever. I mean, it makes sense to me.
Tim Caldwell: Hormonally. Right. That this is all about. Yes, they're very hormonal. That openness. Oh, just men. Yeah. Just men who have hormones. This is all about in that description, this, this has to do with the fact that there is a competitiveness that's innate to [00:20:00] all of us.
And in this agreeableness, it's no, that's mine. That's not an agreeable situation, and it can be as basic as food, shelter, sex, meat, all of these things. I made notes in mind that I think that it's women do have higher rates of agreeability. But most incarcerated individuals are men.
And that most people that are highly disagreeable Are 98 percent of the population. They're the people in jail. Mm hmm. Sure. Just can't get along with people. That's right. They just, man, they just are not good with people. But I also say the primary difference between criminals and non criminals is the disagreement.
That's part of, part of the information. That's true. That's true. But you know, I made a note in my margin about birth order. Mm hmm. We talked about that. If you're from a large family the oldest is usually a Type A, right? They usually get out there and attack the world, and they're overachievers. And the baby, who I [00:21:00] know a little something about, of the family, it's typically, it's pretty chill, right?
Everything they I make jokes that my, my parents were tired by the time I came along, so just do what you want. Well, it wasn't really like that, but I didn't have to endure the rigors and hardships of being the first child, because they were new parents and all this. In openness, I think it's interesting that if you look at the middle child, I'll bet you that their openness is diminished.
Would you, would you think that that's?
Liz Herl: I think there's a possibility of that. You, sharing that is, is something interesting because I, it is completely different in my, in my family. Right. I am absolutely the type A from, from being the baby. And you are the baby. And I am the baby. But you are the only girl.
But I am the only girl. Yeah. Yeah. And I have two older brothers. So, but I was very much so, the caretaker, the driven go getter and all of those things. Mm
Tim Caldwell: hmm. Well, and time and [00:22:00] maturity changes all of our status as that goes along. But I just, I just find that curious that I was, as I was reading through this, that birth status changes your, changes the hierarchy of where you are in there and that the oldest is pretty, typically achieves.
Becomes responsible almost immediately, especially if they're younger siblings, because as they enter into young adulthood, they take on pseudo parental kinship roles. And the middle child then becomes the baby, only to have to surrender that position to another sibling, right? As I said before, if it was just three, the middle child would be one thing, but if you had a larger family, you may incur that all the way through.
You know, that whole series of child 3, 4, 5, and then 6 being the baby or 7 being the baby. I'm not sure. And, and this is all theoretical. I just posed the question. That's, that's curious. You know, those are things to think about.
Liz Herl: I thought it was interesting because we talked about this last [00:23:00] sentence.
This provides strong evidence that biological factors rather than environment and learning account for their dissimilarity. Now, one of the things that I posed to you when we were processing this is that I don't know if it really goes into childhood trauma, because I disagreed with that until you gave me a different perspective.
Right. And what I said is, this doesn't seem to account for what happens in childhood in traumatic events that are going on. Even momentary or, you know, chronic, and how that's going to shape an individual. And then when you shared with, the environmental piece about, like, so if what would you say?
My father was an engineer and my mother, yeah, yeah,
Tim Caldwell: yeah. Let's say, let's say you are the, let's say for instance my mother let's say she broke the mold and she became an architect, but the father was an engineer. My oldest brother became a civil engineer. I have engineering and fabrication or design in my whole family and yet here comes the daughter, [00:24:00] or another sibling, or child, and they, I don't want to do that.
I've, there's a bunch of reasons why. Hey, that's hard work. There's, it's high risk. It's a lot of sacrifice, a lot of travel. Whatever the circumstances are. So those might be the environmental portions I see, that is, absenteeism in a parent, and you know, we could explore that completely, but I, I think it's not just behavioral or, or the sex.
Biological pieces, yeah. Beyond biological, yeah, it could be an environmental thing, too.
Liz Herl: And then it really does go into a lot of political views on how this shapes an individual and what they lean towards. And I can understand that. It wasn't one of my it wasn't the part that I probably I don't think we really reviewed too much of. I was more looking at the components of a person versus the political standpoint.
Tim Caldwell: You know, in review, I wouldn't tell people, take that with a grain of salt. However, if you look back and you, let's say you took this test [00:25:00] and all of the people revealed their results, and you did something similar like a caucus and say, hey, reveal your political status and what you got on your openness and you know, I think I could, I think I could tend to agree with most of what happens here.
What's interesting in here is that for me have it being a 46, which is below the mean, which would be 50%. It, what this appears to mean is that I am in a, I am, that agreeable people strongly identify with those people who feel like they are oppressed, right? So, they almost see a victim situation.
And that they identify with them correctly and immediately. It also means that they, They can see people who are, they perceive as being disadvantaged, meaning they're being exploited, right, or they're being [00:26:00] outnumbered, or they're being harassed, or whatever profile. But that people who are disagreeable, which my, my agreeability is low, so I would be semi disagreeable.
I see people as being oppressed. Right? And I go after the oppressors. I don't have, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the person who's being beat. All I see is who's doing the beating. Right. I agree. And this is where, this is where that political realm comes in there. So being military, and my whole family being military, it, it's interesting to me that there's, I believe that there's a, Some sort of a patriotic vein that may flow there and that Libere di oppressor is the actual motto for the Green Berets when my brother was a Green Beret for 40 years.
That's a beautiful symbol and, you know, understanding that they take on that role in patriotic, in a patriotic capacity to go free the people that are Being oppressed, right? So, do you [00:27:00] see the victim and act on their behalf? Or do you go after the people? And I have a long history of I hate bullies.
Yeah, I got, I got a lot of baggage with bullies. And bullies you know, I, I probably have some classmates that might smile or wink at me about when I tell stories about bullies, but it was tough for me as a small kid in school. I got those bastards back, but, you know, that's not, that's not what this is about, but that seems to be a common thread, right?
Right.
Liz Herl: I mean, it really makes a lot of sense that women with high levels of agreeableness tend to go into careers that are teaching, nursing, I mean, are dominated by women, which is really, I said this to you earlier, it's nurturing, it's nurturing. And, yes, so I became a therapist, so I'm pretty sure that's shocking.
Tim Caldwell: I think it falls into a realm of very commonsensical thing, but it's not to be, it's not to be sexist. None of that. It just shows that they say that in a spontaneous interest, that [00:28:00] women seem to tend towards social programs. Helping people the capacity to give aid to others, teaching, nursing and men are more spatially.
More spatially preoccupied with objects, how things work, fixing things. The interesting thing about mind disagree disagreeable people, by contrast, appear to prefer systemi systemizing problems. Yes. And with over emphasizing that they are more interested in things. Men, tend to like stuff, right? But not the people that go along with it. I remember, I think it was Jordan Peterson relaying this study that primates, they just gave them a block of wood. And that male primates, the male primates would take the wood and try to break the wood or hit their friend with a piece of wood or, you know, how does this work?
And they use it as another tool. But if you gave the other primate or monkey the same block of [00:29:00] wood, they may nurture it. They may carry it and share it and take care of it. And I just think that's interesting. I think that those are innate, innate abilities, right?
Liz Herl: All right. I absolutely. I could not agree more.
Yeah. Yeah, so now we can move on to another this is at the Subsection of agreeableness of agreeableness and compassion compassion.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, how did you do? What was your score
Liz Herl: 77. Oh,
Tim Caldwell: okay. What'd you got there? I got a 50. I got a 55 I got a 55. Yeah, well, the big I's don't mean anything.
It's all relative. Wait, wait until we get to the politeness thing, and I gotta, I gotta, she, yeah, she teased me ruthlessly about being polite. Go ahead. Tell me more about compassion.
Liz Herl: Well, moderately, compassionate people are interested in the problems of other people. Mm hmm. And other living things.
They are concerned about helping other people avoid negative emotion. They make time and do kind things for [00:30:00] others, even when they do so that may interfere with fulfilling their own needs and interests, which is kind of a downside, but that's so what is, what you got over there?
Tim Caldwell: I got a 55. Oh! Typical.
That's me. Typical. Thank you for making me comment. Yeah. Essentially the description is the same as yours. I'm somewhat concerned about helping others. Somewhat. And helping others and help people avoid negative emotions. So I'm helping them avoid these situations. But I'm more than willing to stand my ground even when other people get upset.
Right?
Liz Herl: I completely agree. That is you to a T.
Tim Caldwell: So, so it is, it is that I'm more than willing to intervene or be a part of whatever I can. For you, but we're gonna get to the truth here. And, and that's, and that is well it's the issue and, and move on with that.
Liz Herl: Are you noticeably having a softer side?
Is that what you're saying? I have a noticeable softer side.
Tim Caldwell: I do have a soft [00:31:00] side.
Liz Herl: Is it noticeable? Though mine's noticeable.
Tim Caldwell: I'm not a pushover. Oh, well. Yeah, I'm not a pushover. So, in, in compassion in my compassion percentile other people Will perceive me as being reasonably sympathetic and nice.
Sometimes they turn to me for as a listening ear to tone However, I'm not primarily other persons oriented Right? It's not like I'm going, hey that guy's got a problem, he's got a problem, he's got a problem. It's not like I go seek you out, or even take the time. However, I do do that. It's just, I don't have a, it's not a high propensity for me.
Mine is more, what's the situation that's causing all this, and I'll address that. Yeah.
Liz Herl: I do have a high level and am so oriented that I might find it difficult to negotiate my own needs on my own behalf and, and doing so may not get the acknowledgement of the work that I'm doing.
Tim Caldwell: So [00:32:00] as we discussed, that's kind of the conciliatory part where you, you kind of sacrifice your own for the good of others, right?
Liz Herl: I'm leaning into that more, but yes.
Tim Caldwell: Yes, it is. You do. You're in that business and that's exactly what you do. On my side, this helps to ensure that what they get or deserve is appropriate.
So, mine is, again, I see issues, but mine is to fix the issue, not try to fix the individual person. You're a man. Yep. And what I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to do is to find fairness and ensure that they get something equal. You get what you deserve in the world. That's my conservative realm.
But there is a competition to it, right? In business, in sports work and achievements. There's that whole point that I do resent people who get accolades and reward and recognition for things they didn't earn. That's on the back of hard work from other people.
That's coming up.
[00:33:00] That's coming up. That's right.
Liz Herl: One of the things, I don't know if we mentioned in agreeableness and I want to make sure that I, each category that we in this is like the, the mean and percentile. So women are, are. Shockingly higher in, in compassion than men. Shockingly, shockingly. Mm-Hmm. . And the mean percentile for women in general, for population men and women is 61 for women and 39 for men.
We're going to go right on to politeness and let me tell you who's polite here.
Tim Caldwell: This isn't my lowest score, by the way.
Liz Herl: Out of the two of us, please proceed, Dr. Caldwell. How polite are you?
Tim Caldwell: Okay, on a percentile, I got 38. This, by this description, people who are moderately low in politeness are not particularly differential to authority, nor are they markedly obedient. Meaning, they may not do so well with authority, I do, but I think by, this politeness kind of paints this picture that they can be respectful, but they, [00:34:00] only to people who clearly deserve respect, right, and they will push back, they will challenge when people are pushing the wrong buttons, and they will doing it incorrectly, unlawfully, undeservedly.
They do push back. Some of that's mostly my own editorial. They're not particularly uncomfortable with confronting other people. But, I'm willing to do it. I will do it if I think it's unjust. That's part of the I can't stand bullies thing. All tied together, yes. How about, how about you there, Miss Politeness?
Liz Herl: 71. Ooh. Okay. Moderately polite people tend to be differential to, oh, I, I, I also, I'm very obedient to authority and making sure that they are seen and recognized and be respectful of that to the best of my ability. And I do not like to appear too pushy. Mm hmm. And they are more uncomfortable and challenged in challenging other people [00:35:00] than average.
Moderately polite people will try to avoid conflict and basically desire to steer clear of confrontations and or fights. Yeah. Now I will tell you when I read this I said that's true. I do not like confrontation. Mm hmm, but I will meet it when I bring when it is brought to me. I will meet it. I do choose not to create it if I, if, if possible.
And the same thing with fights. I can meet you, fight on sight, but I, if I can. Yeah. If it's not necessary, then why do it?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. I'm, I'm just, I'm the same way. In this one it says on the political realm those who are liberal politically score somewhat lower in politeness than conservatives. The opposite's true if you have, if you've seen that in Compassion.
Women are higher in politeness than men. Debatable. The mean percentile of women in general is around 59. And minutes 41. So look, I'm right there in the margins. But I did write here in my highlighter [00:36:00] that I am very polite, which makes it official.
Liz Herl: Oh, well, I mean, since you've said it, therefore, I'm sorry, Dr. Peterson, your test is faulty. So, because he's now said he's very polite.
Tim Caldwell: Let's move on with the science.
Liz Herl: Conscientiousness. Yes. Another
Tim Caldwell: aspect.
Yes. The description. Conscientiousness is a measure of obligation, attention to detail, hard work, persistence, cleanliness, efficiency, and adherence to rules, standards, and processes.
Conscientious people. Implement their plans and establish domain order, the two aspects of conscientiousness are industriousness and orderliness. Now, where'd you get over there? Eighty! Yeah, okay. There we go. What'd you get? I got a 91. Oh, heavens, there we go. Yeah, see, so, it's not a competition. But it's a competition.
It's a little bit of a competition. Yeah, it's kind of a competition. Anyway for me, it reads that for my percentile, people who are very high in conscientiousness are strikingly dutiful, dutiful. And they they [00:37:00] tend to be sloggers, sloggers, meaning we grind, right? We grind. They work uncommonly hard and they hate wasting time.
They are very unlikely to procrastinate, particularly if they are also below average in neuroticism. Which I am. Okay. It's very, it is very conscientious. If a very conscientious person promises to do something, he or she does it, regardless of the circumstances or without finding excuses. They are uncommonly decisive, they're neat, organized, future oriented, and reliable.
They are not easily distracted. Now, Pros and cons, a little of this, a little of that. I would say in general, I would hope that that describes me, and I, I, you'd have to ask others if that's true or not. But according to this I got good grades in academics. I did not. Neither did I. but you know, obviously some of these traits are, are learned and they Is there an evolution? I'm not sure, but as we get [00:38:00] older and mature, these things catch up to us. My discovery and turning point in life was that I couldn't read. Once we corrected that, the doors of education opened right up.
Sure, sure. But I can safely tell you that I've never strived to be an A student. I want to have understanding, not good grades. Right, comprehension. Yeah, I think that that was my Is that a way out? I don't know. I don't I don't know if that's a bail point or not, you know, a dropped end point, but it's more important to me that I understand things clearly and have a working knowledge and have good grades.
Right? Sure. How about you?
Liz Herl: very same paragraph you read, since I followed through with that, I always say that I'm a hustler, I'm always hustling, I'm always moving, I, I feel like that there's not a time that I'm not working, I'm constantly working. Now, I get a lot of drive from that, not saying that that's always necessarily a positive thing.
Yeah. But I definitely agree with the outline of this, what it's saying.
Tim Caldwell: In that, and pull back the curtain a little bit, personally, you pay a price.
Liz Herl: Oh, absolutely. [00:39:00]
Tim Caldwell: Absolutely. These people pay a price. These people who are ambitious and They pay a price for, for the successes they have in mine, very conscientious people are highly to, are I already read that part about grades, but they're they typically make good administrators and managers, right?
So they're in a leadership position. They have everything, they like everything in a proper place, which has advantages and disadvantages, and they're likely to be over concerned with detail. Pros and cons, right? Pros and cons. I even make little marks sometimes about OCD. Some people can be micromanagers and they mention this later on.
They can be strikingly guilt prone.
Liz Herl: And that is definitely, yeah, something that resonates with me.
Tim Caldwell: Although, yeah, according to though some of the marginal work here, although they do seem to organize their lives so that they don't feel real guilt. It's, it's just, you know, I really should do this, but it's not like I'm laying it in.
Oh my gosh, I didn't get that done. We just organize that again, we come, my father used to say, work as hard as you [00:40:00] want to be, work tomorrow. And that's kind of how the thing, and, and this is,
Liz Herl: that's a simplicity way of thinking about that. But I think that at the same time one of the things that you know, it pops down to is you're reacting bad badly to failure.
Here's the self critical piece like that. Yeah, it sounds like a conscientious person has great drive and they're driven and they're very well ideally organized at accomplishing goals Well that self critical piece is probably very high and I know it is because there's all these elements That are for self and I shared with you you may have observed when I make error in something and I get very frustrated with myself and I I can't stay I like I just get so frustrated.
I should have caught that .Why didn't I catch that? Yeah, you know, I have everything aligned. I have all my ducks in a row. Why didn't I catch that? Yeah, and so that's why we have to be like, you know,
Tim Caldwell: I make you a cup of coffee Yes, I sit you down. Mm hmm, and then we start over
Liz Herl: Yes. And I'm still mad, but yes, yes, all those things.
Tim Caldwell: So this is one of the things I told you earlier, there's sometimes you get [00:41:00] punched in the gut. And that is in this next sentence, very conscientious people are also hyper susceptible to shame, self disgust, and self content.
Liz Herl: What I just explained. Yes, yes. And it's not, like I said, these are, these are the parts of our personality that I think are important for us, where I always talk about at the end, you talk about take care of yourself, and I say be compassionate to yourself.
I think these are key areas that we overanalyze. This draw, this draws on our excessive thoughts of negative self despair of like, I Why am I the way that I am versus giving ourselves some grace and compassion around, all right, maybe I'm hard on myself, but these are actually positive attributes.
They're not necessarily, we just have to monitor and balance them a little bit. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. From on the athletic side of the house, I would say this as a coach and athlete to know that there are things that you want to substantiate initiate. and make historical in your life. And that is, are you going to follow a feedback loop that's good or bad?
[00:42:00] And if you are that type of person, you don't want to, there's a thing called, in golf, called the yips. And that's when people, every time they make a short putt, it's called a little yip. They always lip out the cup, right? Something's throwing them off just a little bit. What they'll happen to do is stupid, you know.
Slam their putter, they'll punch themselves, they'll curse, whatever, they'll lose their anger. Well, what you're doing is you're establishing this feedback loop, right? Absolutely, 100%. Pretty soon, that's all you can do. I used to tell a joke about the man who bought a puppy. He didn't tend to the puppy.
Every time he'd come home, there'd be a dog mess. He would swat the dog on the nose with a newspaper and throw the dog out the window. Well, what's the dog learn? Every time the dad gets home, he just poops on the floor and jumps out the window. Well, let's take the swatting out of it, right? That's, that's the part of, you know, we need to spin that into affirmations, and that is, Okay, stand back, deep breath, what did I do wrong?
Okay, we don't do that again. But studies show, I can either go through the [00:43:00] mechanics of going, Look, I have to do this, and do this, and do this, or I can just motivate myself. Hey, relax. I've done this before. Just think that, you know, if it, if it is a putt, that putt's as big as a basketball hoop, and I'm standing right next to you, just putt it in, right?
Liz Herl: Well, and right there, I hear you're talking about critical thinking skills, and this is kind of going back on, I, I really like where this highlights a positivity in my, from my perspective, and that is, highly conscientious people are fundamentally committed to personal responsibility, and I take, I take a lot of pride in that, because I think that I, I like being responsible for myself and ownership of my actions and it's not always super fun, but I, I feel like Probably in my belief system of self and my moral compass that that makes me a pretty good person from my my personal viewpoint No Now the other part of that is that I I agreed with this that I that they tend to be Convinced those who work those who work hard should be well rewarded or well versus those who [00:44:00] don't Deserve their failure.
Yeah, and This is gonna sound kind of harsh, but I agree with that Super I'm just like If you want to do it, go do it, and the idea, and it's not that simple, I always, I share that with a lot of people. Don't expect something, and we are living, and I don't want to, you know, spiral off into somewhere else, but we're living in a society that things should just come to me because therefore I want them, or I like them, or I should have them, but I don't have to work for them.
Right. And that's ridiculous. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then it's like, well, I didn't get what I want, and this didn't work out, well, that's what you get.
Tim Caldwell: You're, you're, you're talking generational stuff. So. If we talk to Millennials, to Gen Z, to, we get into this cultural thing about entitlements, and we get into this discussion of what's hard work and what's hustle and what's, well, everybody wants the Benjamins, but nobody wants to go out and earn one, right?
Gimme, gimme, gimme, well, it takes hard work. I'd like that you bring that up. [00:45:00] In my notes, I put, damn, I agree, right? There's, this is, this is part of the, did you earn it or not, right? You gotta be an earner. If you're gonna be in some type of organization that's successful, you better be rowing in the same direction or you're a dead weight.
And what will an organization do? They'll get rid of you. If you continue to join organization after organization and all you expect is to be pulled in that wagon instead of pull the wagon. Right. That organization has nothing, it wants nothing to do with you. You have to be able to do that. But individually you have to tell yourself, hey, I've been to three jobs.
They all don't seem to be working out. Hey, what's the common thread? It's you. And I'm big on gotta work for it, right? Gotta work for it.
Liz Herl: So yeah, I really align with that as well.
Tim Caldwell: The interesting thing in here is that they can also take the people who are very much very conscientious like me.
If you've ever been in charge of other people and you're doing work for a third party, then I've had people under me. I [00:46:00] take responsibility for everybody under me. In a chain of command, it doesn't matter where I am, if I'm the captain of that ship I'm in, I, I run the boat, right? Mm-Hmm. . If I have a worker or a subordinate beneath me and something happens or is broke or there's an accident, it's ultimately my responsibility.
Sure. And whether it's you or three or what I'm trying to say, whether you're alone, you have subordinates or not. We, people who are very subconscious, we tend to bear the guilt of everything that happens no matter what, and sometimes we carry that too much, and that can, that can lend to being burnt out, really.
Absolutely. Absolutely burnt out, so. Those are things to be aware of is, is when you take these traits and you go, Wow, you know what? That is me. I, I take work with me home every day. I worry about my employees, I, you worry about all those things, right?
Liz Herl: Right, you have to balance the pros and cons.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, that's right.
And that's where we, that's where you start to tip the scales of pros and cons. [00:47:00] Do you need to micromanage? Do you need to retrain? Do you need to have, do you need to take the time to have those people literally walk alongside, let me show you how to do this right? Right,
You know what?
Here, very conscientious people are more likely to be politically conservative. Okay. So I asked you this before I didn't, I just made mention of this. I tend to believe that most businesses are started by people who are very liberally minded, but they're run by conservatives.
Liz Herl: Right, and then I challenged you on it because I said I had a soul practice that I built.
Tim Caldwell: True, but then I push back and I say yeah but, yeah but, you possess those, you possess those liberal qualities that make you creative and you can see you a job that needs to be filled or a service that can be provided, but it takes the rigors of being dutiful, sticking to very much the regime of getting the work done.
Orderliness. It's nice to get it started, right? I talk about here later in my notes about starters and finishers. I've done a lot of [00:48:00] stuff in my life. I can tell you that I do struggle to finish some things because I get so preoccupied with hey, there's another thing to do, right?
Liz Herl: Yeah, we all have that.
We all have that.
Tim Caldwell: We all, we do, but it is, it is important, like I said.
Liz Herl: Women are slightly more conscientious than men.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah, and men rank around 49. 5%, so I got a 91, which means, again, am I more feminine? Okay. I'm
Liz Herl: trans conscientious. Women are 51. 5, so I'm just going to move right along there.
Tim Caldwell: Okay. What's the next subcategory there under conscientiousness? Industrious. Industrious.
Liz Herl: Industrious. Industrious. So what'd you got there?
Tim Caldwell: I got an 82, which put me high as a description of, of that characteristic. Highly industrious people are more likely to be successful in school and administration and managerial positions.
Particularly if they're intelligent. They value [00:49:00] work. Helps to be smart. They work they value work highly and typically want to do good at whatever they're doing. They're very dutiful. They don't put things off and they do not often mess things up. They don't make a lot of mistakes. Why would you think that would be?
Liz Herl: Because they are so occupied in order OCD that Oh, oh, okay. They don't allow for error or, or, or a mean of error. And I was, I just so you know, you know, you didn't ask, but
Tim Caldwell: I, oh, I'm, I'm so sorry. What did you get, Liz? 67.
Liz Herl: I was moderate.
Tim Caldwell: Tell me, how does that describe you?
Liz Herl: You read it. Same, same? Same, same.
Tim Caldwell: Okay, so you fall pretty much in the majority there.
What does it tell you, then, about starters and finishers?
Liz Herl: They also, and this was something when we were going back and forth, that I think your verbiage is different than mine, because they put on mine, they also [00:50:00] tend to finish what they start pretty much on schedule. Is your, I think your verbiage is No, no.
Okay.
Tim Caldwell: That's it. Again, personally and there are people who would agree that I'm great at starting stuff, but as it begins, sometimes projects become daunting, right? I, I thought I was plugging a leak and now I'm fixing, I'm, this thing's just a screen door in a submarine. I can't, I can't chase all the leaks.
Hey, there's an easier job, and I'll go over there, right?
Liz Herl: So what do you, mmm, well, I see that the therapist in me just bopped out. So what do you think that is that you do that? Okay, I won't, sorry, anyways, we'll stay on this. It's okay. Like, because that the completion of a task list, like, so I always say that people have these tabs open of tasks in their mind, and if they've got all these tabs open, And when it looks like it's going to be too the, the challenge of the resolve is going to be a lot longer than this one over here, then I'll just pop back over to this one.
Yeah. And I still find reward because I closed out a tab. Yeah. Right. And I think that's a little bit of that.
Tim Caldwell: So. [00:51:00] You're welcome. So a lot of what you're describing is. Well, it can be linked to a very dopernergic. Correct, correct. Cycle, right? Mm hmm. I finish and I correct it.
Liz Herl: But that's how we're made.
Tim Caldwell: It's not like. So how do we address that in a project that becomes so daunting? Carve it up. Mm hmm. I don't have to do the whole thing. Well. I have eight hours. I can get this done.
Liz Herl: Right. And that kind of, again, right, When we reflect back, I think that goes back to when we were talking about when we're making New Year's resolution goals.
Oh, yeah. And making them really, really small and saying, like, in the next two weeks, I'd like to do this, not for the year of 2024. Right, right, right. It's like, okay. Then it's like, okay, that's a little
Tim Caldwell: daunting.
Yeah, right. That, that, that's, that's exactly it is. You can leave the tab open, but carve it up, right?
It's, it I, one of my professors, a wonderful man, Dr. Parveen, incredibly person, incredibly A brilliant professor from India. How do you eat an elephant? It's one bite at a time. And just like you eat everything, it's just one bite at a time. Okay. There you go. Right. What else you got?
Liz Herl: [00:52:00] Moderately industrious people have some genuine interest in considering how to accomplish more in less time.
I do it. Yeah. I'm the same. That is very much so. I'm like with fewer resources and can focus consistently on the task at hand. I am always trying to make a task. Completed with the fewest amount of resources and done well. Yeah, that's my other part and it's done completely Well, but that doesn't again there's pros and cons with all of that.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, sure it is and it depends on the task It depends on the task. That next paragraph is interesting for me. Highly industrious people Who are more likely to judge shirkers or people who are incompetent quite harshly and they want them out of the way So I find that kind of grim
Liz Herl: I'm going to remove you.
Yeah, mine was a little bit more delicately cuz since I'm moderate Please share. I was only quite likely to judge. Oh, I'm not as harsh as you with people who are incompetent in a negative manner. [00:53:00] That sounds a little rigid.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, mine says they're so harsh on these people who are incompetent in doing their work is because in parentheses, they are likely to believe that these people fall short of what their ability to do is because they just don't work hard enough.
Liz Herl: And, but this reflects exactly what we were just talking about, but you get, you don't receive anything, then you receive failure and that's what you earned. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the very same. Same, same. Yeah, that's why I'm thinking there's some, all of this is kind of marrying a little bit.
Tim Caldwell: They feel people who are highly industrious, they feel guilty rapidly if they do not complete their duty.
Liz Herl: Oh, yeah, absolutely. There is nothing, and of course, I, you know, I speak to self here. Every therapist That I know are, are daunting tasks of clinical notes is, and it's one of the things that it never ends, nor does treatment plans or anything of that nature, but it's being able to maintain that efficiently and [00:54:00] promptly and orderly.
Tim Caldwell: To do their duty. That's true. Now, I will say my brother in law wants. According to Fraser, he says, I have Conquer Syndrome. And that is, I see a project Actually, this happens like when I do art and sculpt and stuff like that. I can't just Sculpt and come back to it. I sculpt it all, all at once.
And now he calls it Conqueror. I have a Conqueror thing going on with me, so I have to conquer the thing. Now, what's the problem with that is, A, it takes me, it takes me out of a realistic time frame to accomplish the task. Mm hmm. B, it makes me chronically late for dinner, or making appointments, or keeping promises, and as a result of that, now I'm, now I am giving them a half hearted effort or a hurried effort.
Well, that can't happen. And for that, for that to happen, you need to be aware of that and say, stop. There is a stop point here. I've gotten better at [00:55:00] that over time. And that is I'm going to get from here to here. We're good. We're good. Stop. And I make myself stop. But when you're building or fabricating or something like that, If you're doing, you know, if you're doing something and you go, Well, man, just five more.
And you get through five more. That was easy. God, look at that small pile. And here's 20 more. No. Because you know what that makes? It makes me late for supper and I'm a man. Mm hmm. And that's what happens. And you need to, you need to be able to go, Stop. This is the day's work. Like I said before, work hard all you want.
There'll be work tomorrow. Come back and take it up again, right? Sure. Absolutely. But, people who are highly industrious. They typically stay ahead of schedules and they are more than willing to accept responsibilities that may surpass their own skill sets just because they like the experience.
They love to learn. They love to broaden their horizons. Absolutely. Yeah, I know that that's true. I've always enjoyed that.
Liz Herl: it's interesting because it says that they usually, [00:56:00] for my description, and sometimes I think it's very interesting on the verbiage used in our descriptors when we're very close.
Sometimes there's absolutes used in your language and sometimes there's more vague words used in mine. And I think that's interesting because they, in this description, they usually stay on schedule and accept responsibility. They generally avoid experiencing actual guilt.
And unless you're, your tabs or your task bar is so overwhelmed that you feel like you can't get to it all. And sometimes I thought that was interesting because I do find. Guilt in saying, Oh my goodness, I didn't get to that day or night. I have a checklist that's 45, you know, pages long in my mind and I'm like, Oh, I really should have got to that or I didn't do that.
And then we miss other little elements in our life. Not just, not just work related, but personal related. Oh, I forgot to call this person and I forgot to do this. And I think that's interesting because. Apparently, I don't. It states that a person with this would have this skill set, but I do experience guilt.
And I don't know if that's [00:57:00] just because I'm a woman.
Tim Caldwell: No, no, no, no. I, I, I, well, being a business person, business ownership is one of those things that you, Those problems don't stop nine to five. They go home with you, and you'll lay at night all in bed.
How am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? And I can tell you it can be
Liz Herl: And that's very unhealthy, and I do not recommend that.
Tim Caldwell: That's right, and I can tell you it can be really damaging to You, your health, your relationships. Everything, yeah. Everything. You pay a big, big toll now. Maybe a few months down the road or years down the road people see all the successes but they don't see all the hoops and sacrifices you made and everything you did to accomplish that.
Liz Herl: With men and women who do you think is more industrious?
Tim Caldwell: Oh, it's men. It's men.
Liz Herl: Okay. Pipe down over there, misogyny.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, men men tend to rank around 51. 5%, women around 49. 5%. See, so it's not very far apart. Unless you get a big ol score like 91, like, yeah, yeah,
Liz Herl: yeah.
Tim Caldwell: This guy. Anyway.[00:58:00] Next one. Orderliness.
That's a subcategory, right? That is a subcategory. Subcategory of conscientiousness. It's an aspect of conscientiousness. It is. Very orderly people are uncommonly disturbed or disgusted by mess and chaos.
Liz Herl: So. What was your score? I got a 93. Yeah. Yeah. We've had, we've had discussion. We, you and I have had a lot of discussion on order and we even, prior to even taking this, we, we talk about organization and cleanliness and how little things, irritate those, those aspects of our personality. Yeah. I told you I have a very big pet peeve of like, there should be no, I don't understand. Dishes in the sink. Yes. Kitchen. It just drives me nuts. I don't, and sorry, I don't, I don't get it and it should not happen. Ever. Dishes all just be in the dishwasher cleaned.
Tim Caldwell: So we, we share the, we share the kitchen thing, meaning. When I cook for everyone, we're all served at the same time. And by the time I sit at the table, [00:59:00] there's no dishes to be washed except the ones you're eating off of. It's just the way my process is. Other people would go, why do you do that? It's not necessary, blah, blah.
That's my process. That keeps things orderly for me. I, on the other hand, for instance, work in a shop where I fabricate things. If I have to do things, I, it is, it could be hard to, it could be difficult to work with me at times, and I recognize this. I am neat to, I I'm very orderly. And the reason I am, is because, I was trained as a machinist. Went into the Navy where you are always space conscious. I only have this much space to put, stow all of my stuff and they have that much space to store. We can't have stuff floating around. You can't have stuff lingering, but the idea is in my shop, despite all of the mess, I will stop the process to clean my shop to start the next process.
I will not walk around on dirt. I can't stand that kind of clutter and we talk about that whole process. That's probably [01:00:00] Not most, most men aren't that way. It's just the process of me being raised and educated as a machinist.
Liz Herl: I think this, going back to that biological environmental piece, I think biological obviously can play a role here, but environmental, just when we talk about military in general, there's so much order put into military.
Yeah. That, that becomes such a part of you, and it did become such a part of you, that you just applied that to other aspects of your life as you matured.
Tim Caldwell: Well, even from birth, because my whole family is military. I was raised in a military home.
Liz Herl: So, you got a 93 and I got an 84, so I'm fairly orderly myself, and my descriptors were the same.
It, it's interesting because it's like, it says you tend to think in more black and white terms, and I, I think I, I do have a gray margin, and you are absolutely black and white. You are super rigid.
Tim Caldwell: Right here. I have no gray areas.
Liz Herl: Zero. And he's like, yeah, and I put stars all over it. I'm like, yes, no. And this one I said, I use, mine was, I leave little room for gray area.
There is [01:01:00] possibility of it. Which I think is very interesting in itself and given some more, I guess, some more perspective here. And that is when we were talking about when I can go to get ready for to shoot the podcast and I have hairspray and I have my makeup and I have, and you're just like.
What is going on over there? But I know in my mind, it's all order. First, it's all in order. I know my, you know, my process and then I pick it all up and I, and it's all organized. But you to walk in, first off, if you were using my makeup, we'd have other conversations. But for you to walk into my area and start working would be very disorganized for you.
Much like if I walked into yours. Yeah. Because the way we see order is different.
Tim Caldwell: A really, really good fight would be, Hey, why don't you clean this crap up, right, Liz? Yeah, that would be a really, really good one.
Liz Herl: That would be a fight on sight.
Tim Caldwell: Nobody wants to, you know, we shouldn't. And that's part of the maturity process, especially in relationships, is that your spouse or loved one or partner, they may do things a different way than you do.[01:02:00]
And sometimes you have to just kind of sit back and say in the trade for how incomes are earned, kinship, the relationship of a household, if It's, it's not as common as it used to be, but if you do have a stay at home spouse, male or female, if they are taking care of the household, that's their job.
that's their charge. Let them do it. As long as they're doing it, let them do it any way they want to do it. Unless it's detrimental or harmful or unsafe or unclean or something like that. But, in the meantime, you do your job. Let them do their job. If you can come together, overlap, help, that's great, but really you don't want to try to invade somebody else's process.
It's not your process. If they're doing fine, then great, but open communication is a sure way to figure out, Hey, do you need some help? Because maybe it wouldn't be so cluttered if I did more, or I helped with this, or, yeah, so you need that. And,
Liz Herl: well, as we get to the lower half of this, I want to, I want to speak to some other elements that I see in my practice.
But they, we [01:03:00] do want everything where it should be. We, there isn't, there's a different understanding of that. There should, everything should be where it's at. Is that what yours reads? Yeah, they want everything where it should be. What was your score?
Tim Caldwell: 84. Yeah. Yeah, that's high for women. That's high for women.
Liz Herl: Yeah, they're they are rule abiding and tend to insist on that the rules are observed. Mm hmm. They can be judgmental towards themselves and others if and when the rules are broken or procedures are ignored And this is kind of speaking to a lot of actually, I think of military ranking and law enforcement.
They do not like to be without routine and predictability. That's right. That is so much of, of a security of next steps, of, of an area of control. Like, I know what comes next, I know this is happening versus I don't know what. I don't have no area of control. Yeah. I, this is a very small thing, but it kind of goes into when a family goes into a restaurant, where does the man sit?
Tim Caldwell: Well, you would say the head of the table. But a lot of times, we have had this discussion, [01:04:00] I've had, my family makes fun of this too, this is getting into something else, but I never have my back to the door.
Liz Herl: That is the same for my husband as well.
Tim Caldwell: I never, yeah, these are, these are traits. Area of control.
These are traits of being situationally aware. It doesn't have to come from combat or anything like that, even militarily. It's just that there is always a perceived or potential threat. of harm And you want to be able to get out of there, right? And, and I'm trying to do that so I have, I'm situationally aware.
Liz Herl: Well, and there's this, I think that masculinity of that you take on your family as your charge of protection. Yeah. And that it's my job to see potential threats. Not being in that paranoid state of mind, I want to be very clear, but a positive or, or, you know, genuine awareness of, Okay, well, this person seems to be abruptly walking over to my table and I don't know why they're doing that.
But being able to manage yourself appropriately is [01:05:00] really important. Yeah. So you can be present for your family or whomever you're with versus.
Tim Caldwell: When we speak to, there are elements of this that overlap very much. I was surprised. When, when we, when we took this test, and we'll get to it later, that the neuroticism.
Mm-Hmm. . I thought what I, I thought I would've been much, much higher. But it isn't. But it is, it is. In fact,
Liz Herl: the descriptor gives you some more insight to that.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, it does. The descriptor does, but also that there's overlapping qualities, like when we see in orderliness, is that. In, in a situationally controlled thing, I have some order, right?
I know where my exits are. I know where the people, I know where the kitchen is and the bathroom is. And there's, you know, there, I have, I have stories to tell about why I'm like that. It's not just military, but everybody has their own history, right?
Liz Herl: Yes. Excessive order, orderliness can also constrain creativity.
Yeah. So, as creativity endeavors often require, [01:06:00] mass disruption, intervening periods of chaos. Yeah. So I have to say when thinking of that, I had my daughter got Christmas money and she wanted to go buy some toys and so she bought the stuffed animal that I did not realize that when you got home I'm sure it was full there is a there's a stuffed animal under it but you pull out all these little tiny tiny strings and I mean it was a disastrous mess It was so I'm still finding strength and I'm like, I just told my husband I had no idea Like I did not know that Yeah, it was literally string by string by string and it was hundreds and hundreds of pieces of string.
And of course, she's just like going at it and chaos of it everywhere and I'm like, I will clean this up. It'll be fine. And, but I, I was just like, and I kept trying to manage the chaos if you will, because just keeping her in a central location where it wasn't, but then we still find strings about everywhere.
Yeah. But I do think that is yeah.
Tim Caldwell: On the man's side of the house. Whether it's plumbing, [01:07:00] electrical, even the framing, all of the building, the, if you, if you've built anything that's, I built fine furniture and fine furnishings for almost a decade. I know some great, great builders, we're all on different levels, but they're all great builders, and they all do things differently.
But the interesting thing about that is, it's the individual orderliness of how they do it, that's their process. But that way we can all agree, well, that's beautiful. He would have built it differently, and sometimes we don't agree. Right, absolutely. But the end product is that it's orderly, right? And now it's safe.
Liz Herl: And everyone's order is relative to their situation of what they perceive it to be.
Tim Caldwell: Now, again, that only tapers into, the only reason I really bring that up is because of the creativity of all that. So I used to sculpt. It's been a while since I sculpted. I still like to sculpt. But the idea is there's a certain mess that goes to sculpting.
There's a certain mess that goes to painting. There's a certain And if you are [01:08:00] afraid of making mistakes, your artistic abilities in all likelihood are going to be stifled. You need to, sometimes you need to make mistakes. My professor used to say, at some point in time you have to hang the art. You can't just keep fixing things and fixing things.
At some point you have to put it up there. Right. And you learn from that.
Liz Herl: Right. Yeah. Which is like the over analyzation. But women are, are more orderly than men. The percentile for women is 54. 5 and men is 45. 5. And I think this, I do appreciate because I, I shared with you earlier, this is something that we hear a lot of in just any type of intimate relationship, partnerships, and that is the trouble around household work being managed fairly and, and reasonably from one person.
And I think it is definitely the individual's view of orderliness. Like, I shared, I don't like when I'm cooking a meal, I like to clean as I cook. Yep. So when I'm done, I don't have anything. Yeah. A lot of people will just cook use, you know, several different pots and pans and plates and things [01:09:00] and and then after it's all done, they'll sit down and eat and then they'll go clean.
I could not do that. Yeah. And, and my family, they, they know that. I'm just like, over there washing while I, while I cook. Yeah. Well, it's part of your process. Right. And, but I definitely know that that is some men don't see the same line of sight around cleanliness and orderly. Yeah. And I think there's.
Because there's some typical traits with women, right? That we we're the ones, ideally, in some, you know, I guess it would be old fashioned, but that are managing the household and the children and the schedules and the things. And it's like, well, this goes with this and this goes with this and this goes with this.
Tim Caldwell: Well, my challenge, my challenge to all of that is on the opposite side of that is can you really take the time to socialize and enjoy if you know there's a whole kitchen full of greasy stuff sitting out there?
Liz Herl: I can't. Yeah. But some people can. That's my point. That's just.
Tim Caldwell: That's my point. This is your process.
This is how you do it. And this is where you have to step back and go, okay, this is her process. This is how she does it.
Liz Herl: Oh, yes. And I think they every my [01:10:00] husband and three children know me very well. Yeah. But I just like to clean immediately and clean as I go. So. Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: How you doing on time?
Liz Herl: We are, you know, we're well into a little, just a little bit over an hour here. And we've got, we've got quite a bit here left to go. Yeah, at least three more subjects. Yes, so. We could branch off for a little bit and take a pause and do a part two understanding myself. Just because I don't feel like we could rush it in another 15 minutes And I don't even think we could get through it in another 15 minutes And and I want to give it its due diligence and go through it the way we've been doing it But we will pick up on extroversion.
Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: that sounds good. Let's wrap it up for today and
Liz Herl: You know, sorry to leave you hanging, but stay tuned for part two.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, we always appreciate you guys. Please comment and like and smash those buttons and share and all those good things. We're we're getting better at this and this has obviously been some hard work and I owe [01:11:00] much of the hard work to Liz.
She takes care of the stuff and she's She makes my end much easier, but we appreciate you as, as you watch and we're learning how and this process does get easier. We're enjoying it now that we're beginning to have a format. Our pre and post production stuff is helping us too, so when we make mistakes, we know where to edit those things and we'll pull back the curtain.
We'll, no, no, it's not. No, we're not showing the blooper reel. No, but we have, we have fun doing this and we very much couldn't do it without people who watch and support us.
Liz Herl: Yes, and listen, we appreciate it. And I want to encourage if you definitely to go to understand myself and go and take it. I know it is 10.
One thing that I do think that was really interesting and I, I can't recall specifically, but I think it's collaborate there's another button there that where your intimate partner can take one as well and do a comparison [01:12:00] around really more of a marital aspect of how you both look at life a little bit differently and your personality traits and things like that.
But you know, I think
Tim Caldwell: this is really beneficial, you know, having taken these types of exams several times. It's good to know where you are anywhere in life about what are my interests in life that what let me take this thing and then be honest with it and say Hey, you know what? I'm if I am really very the creative type.
I'm not I don't want to be accountant I don't want to be I don't want to be where I have to do meticulous work where I'm sitting there still quiet And that's not that's not work. If this helps you as a guideline use something like this There's subjects like, subject matter like that that'll help direct you right?
Absolutely. Yeah, it's been a good tool.
Liz Herl: Yes, so we will take part two up here shortly and in the meantime be kind to yourself. If you take this, please be kind to yourself, but be honest, be honest. Don't be like, well, I don't really want to say that because that makes me look like a bad person. Just be honest.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. My dad used to [01:13:00] say you can say almost anything to anybody if he was a little tacked. Right? And that's true. That's true. I always want to encourage people to take care of yourselves. Right? If somebody else needs you, you may not know it, but somebody else needs you. Okay? Thanks, Liz. Thanks, guys. See you guys.