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Hello, and welcome to Building Women, the podcast that deconstructs the careers of women in the construction industry. I'm your host, Jolley. And today we're speaking to Ffion Jones, founder of Beautiful Minds, a company that coaches construction teams to work more efficiently and collaboratively. Lovely to have you on Building Women, Ffion.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Julia. I am really excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Just for everyone to know, Ffion and I are actually mums at our local school together. We recently found out that we're in the same industry and trying to achieve the same goals. So it's been what I would call a beautiful coming together for this episode. Why don't you tell us a bit about your background? And I'm really interested to hear why your consultancy is called Beautiful Minds and what you do.
Speaker 2:Beautiful Minds is the name of my team coaching consultancy, and we focus entirely on the engineering and construction, the infrastructure sector and industry. Why that name though? So when I started this business, it was seven years ago. I was still working. I was employed.
Speaker 2:I had my second child on the way, my daughter, Carys, and I decided out of nowhere that I wanted to see if mummy could cut it in the big wide world. I was pregnant with Carys sitting at home thinking through names with my husband, and we kept coming back to generic names because there's often a tendency to want to play it small when you're starting the next stage of your career. And Beautiful Minds popped up out of nowhere, and it just wouldn't go away. And the reason that it just wouldn't go away is because it resonated so deeply with me and what we wanted to achieve, the purpose of starting a team coaching business, which is that when we put our beautiful minds together, you know, what we can achieve is absolutely incredible. But what I've really discovered as the years have gone by in running this business is that it's about so much more than just our beautiful minds.
Speaker 2:It's about our beautiful hearts. It's about the beautiful energy that we bring. It's about the beautiful systems that we live in. And it's about putting beautiful whole humans together to get the really, really kind of best thinking and being present for our industry.
Speaker 1:I'm really interested in your background as well. So you have currently got a focus on the kind of construction industry and the built environment. Why that and where does that come from?
Speaker 2:Alright. So full disclosure, I am married to an engineer. And that's how I came into the industry. We lived in Australia for six years before moving back to The UK in 2012. And I worked for an engineer a global engineering consultancy in learning and development.
Speaker 2:And again, when I heard of my first child, I did my learning and development postgraduate diploma. And I ran national and international leadership development programs. So very focused on culture and behaviors that that side of leadership, that human side of leadership. So I'd been doing that for a number of years in engineering and construction when the penny dropped for me, in that I was having con conversations all the time with executive leaders or project directors or program directors who were saying, if this job has gone well, it's because of our ability to connect with our clients, with our suppliers, internally with our teams. And if these jobs aren't going well, it's because those relationships are fractured and falling apart.
Speaker 2:And I kinda had one of those light bulb moments that you have where I went, ah, leadership is great, and we absolutely need to focus on developing ourselves. Greatest investment we can make, Warren Buffett. However, when we put that together in a team and a team of teams, which is how we operate a lot in in engineering and construction, you know, we magnify that impact or we magnify the the negative impact of that. So that's when I became really interested in teams. I brought collaboration into everything that I did from a leadership programme perspective.
Speaker 2:And then I was really lucky to start working with, one of my greatest mentors, Jane Grant at WSP. And we were working there on collaboration in projects and collaboration in bids and tenders, so for behavioural assessments. And alongside that, I then did my team coaching qualification and started the business.
Speaker 1:It's so important, isn't it, That collaboration piece and that relationship piece? And, you know, we we talk about it all the time, OC, in our business, that that's that's kind of the key element to how we all succeed in this kind of AI world and and the future, the immediate future, and what that looks like. And and there are obviously better lawyers, for example example, than others, but there is a there's a technical ability as assumed when you employ a lawyer at a good firm. Right? So Yeah.
Speaker 1:What distinguishes you and what always has done relationships and your ability to build those relationships with people, and and our industry is just full of that. And so with with the advance of technology and things, that's just gonna become so much more important over the next few years. You have to have that collaboration. I just think that applies across the board. You have to work together and you help each other out and you're all trying to achieve the same goal.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The reason that we do what we do, and we're a bigger team now of coaches who are able to bring team coaching, systemic team coaching, which is something I'll try and kind of talk about and point to as we go through this conversation, is this principle of relational intelligence. So we know what emotional intelligence is. We know what IQ is. And there is this more expanded version of that that is about relational intelligence.
Speaker 2:And lots of people in our industry and in your firm will have some level of relational intelligence, which literally means, you know, how can I understand all of the relationships that I'm in, all of the relationships that are that are around me, how I impact them, and how they impact me? But the ability to then really take a step back and look at all of those relationships that you're in and work out how best to approach those relationships, how best to understand another human being, and how best to understand and see how a team all fits together, you know, that's when we're really cooking on gas, isn't it? And I think, you know, this podcast is called Building Women. And I think there are there are huge synergies across what what men and women want out of life and bring to the picture. And much of what we are able to bring as women is our ability to sense our way through a problem.
Speaker 2:So I don't wanna be too binary about, you know, who has what skills. That's that's not what this is about. But certainly our ability to be more intuitive and to feel and sense our way through a problem rather than always trying to logically work our way through a problem is a huge, huge strength for the industry. You've talked about intuition. Do you think that that do you think
Speaker 1:it is something that you've just got? Or do you obviously, you're in a you're you're coach. Right? So is it is this something that the people you see have a little bit of to start with, and then you sort of coach them to kind of bring that out? Or can you teach it?
Speaker 1:If someone just doesn't have that skill, is it I'm just thinking about people that might be listening and thinking, that doesn't sound very me. I'm not very outgoing. I'm not very I don't feel like I'm very intuitive. Is it something that you can coach out of somebody?
Speaker 2:The short answer to your question is yes. And the longer quest the longer answer to your question is that everybody's different and we've got a really wide range of beautiful minds and people and ways of being, you know, in the infrastructure sector and across all sectors. I really do notice if we are given the gift of space and time to reflect on ourselves and our backgrounds, our experiences, how we respond and react to the situations that we find ourselves in. Often, we are much more resourceful on this intuition front than we think we are. It's just that we haven't had the time and the space to kind of access that.
Speaker 2:And that's, you know, that that for for a lot of leaders that I've worked with, it's more present in them than they think it is. Because one of the stories that people tell themselves across our industry is I'm I'm logical, I'm analytical, you know, I can't do this more emotional intuitive stuff. And it simply isn't true of most people. Everybody has that resource inside of them to some extent, and we're there to help them bring it forward because that's what leadership needs in this in the world that we're living in now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you. And talking about fitting it into your and and, you know, standing back and creating that time and space, I know conversation we've had between the two of us is that our industry is so time poor. It's it's project led. It's deadline driven.
Speaker 1:How can senior women in construction and in the infrastructure and the built environment build that into their day?
Speaker 2:I'm really thinking hard about this before our conversation because one of the things that I reflected on about the careers of women in this industry and my own career as well is that we go through different stages. And recognizing where you are at at each stage in your career can be really, really valuable. So for example, at the early stages of your career, you're going to be asking for help. The the courage to ask for that development at that stage in your career is absolutely paramount, and you should have absolutely no shame or doubt in your mind that it's critical that you that you do that at that stage in your career. You know, we tell ourselves a story that is quite deeply embedded as women that we must work hard and not get anything in return.
Speaker 2:And that's I'm just painting quite a bleak picture there for a moment, but I'm doing I'm doing it for a reason because the the real power lies in undoing that story. So I think one of the things to say is that early in your career, ask for help, ask for professional development, take as much time as you need to get up the curve and take that pressure off yourself to have all the answers and to be performing and performative all of the time. Do that knowing that the reason you're doing it is that later on in your career, that's gonna allow you to be a much more powerful leader who can help others later on in your career as well. So it's almost like don't see it as a selfish act. Recognize that every time you invest in yourself and you take that time, you're doing it so that you can grow into the leader that you need to be and will be for others.
Speaker 2:And then as you reach the kind of mid stage of your career, you know, you're really trying to find the spaces where you can best amplify your influence. So this taking time to develop yourself in your mid career, you're allowed to be targeted about that. You're allowed to have boundaries around that. And you're allowed to very clearly take opportunities that are going to develop you towards being the leader that you want to become. I think one of the things that we do is we we sort of think that a) we can't have anything for ourselves, I.
Speaker 2:E. Professional development or taking time to reflect. B) we know we must be entirely unselfish in our activities. I noticed on reflection that you know when I was starting this business, I had to be and before that as well, when I started my family and I was working at the same time, I had to become really clear cut about if I'm gonna do this, whatever it might be, go on a leadership course, do my learning and development postgraduate diploma, take my team coaching certification, have a coach. If I'm gonna do this, it absolutely has to be right now to benefit me so that I can get to the next level.
Speaker 2:Always with a vision in mind, and that vision was not particularly clearly clear in my head to begin with. It was just kind of a feeling and a sense and a wanting. But later on, it's become much much clearer to me that the further forward I go, the vision is that at every stage I get to offer more help and support to others as I go. So you know, the vision for me was that I'd be able to give back to charity. So as a business now every Christmas, we give back to charity and we're currently sponsoring space on the STEM amazing mentoring programme which mentors women to be able to bring STEM subjects to children in schools.
Speaker 2:But it was it was a goal. I wasn't able to do that two years ago.
Speaker 1:I can't stress how important everything you've just said is because I see it all the time and I've I've been there. It sounds like you've been there, but it feels selfish to take that time. And when you've got so many other pulls on your time and particularly when, you know, typically, and again, it's a quite a blanket comment, but typically women in their mid career are women with young families, women who are maybe looking after older parents and having those pulls on their time in terms of like the caregiving stuff as well as trying to get ahead in their career and kind of get out of that middle bit into a leadership role perhaps. And it does feel really selfish taking that time, but it and I don't know whether it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because do we have to tell ourselves that actually we're being selfish at the moment and and then that's okay because that allows us to then give back later in our career.
Speaker 1:You know, why do we even need to tell ourselves that to give ourselves permission to be selfish? I don't know. But it's it's such a it is a massive thing. And and, you know, to to draw on what you just said about being targeted is so important to be targeted because, you know, go back to the question, but we are time poor. There are so many drains on our energy.
Speaker 1:There are so many pulls on us in different directions. You really do have to be very targeted and otherwise you're just trying to be all things to all people and you're just going to burn out. Right?
Speaker 2:Exactly. And we are conditioned, many of us are conditioned to try to be all things to all people. And I'm going say something a bit controversial if that's all right. And that is that also women are allowed to have money. We're allowed to be financially successful.
Speaker 2:It takes quite a lot of undoing, I think, of some deeply held stereotypes in society or concepts in society that for us to be able really realise that and own that and be okay with the fact that if we are successful in our careers and financially successful again, we will very likely be creating a better world for the future because of the way that we think about money, way that we invest, the way that we spend. So that was one of the things that I noticed I was doing and and and really had to kind of steal myself when I both in my career and in my business, you know, kind of saying this opportunity is a highly lucrative opportunity and I'm going to take it and I get to have this opportunity at the cost potentially of something else because I can see the bigger picture of of me being successful. And also, I'm I'm allowed I am allowed to be successful, to be a successful woman in this world. I think that language for women is we're still working on that, aren't we?
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's so true. I haven't thought of it from that financial success point of view either before, but, yeah, it just everything you just say really resonates.
Speaker 2:I hope that's okay. Not a bit controversial, you
Speaker 1:know No. Not at all. Like, there is a risk as well with women that we in giving back later in our careers, we end up people pleasing Mhmm. Over functioning. I've mentioned burnout, burning out.
Speaker 1:How can you build in that kind of giving back without burning out? How how do you distinguish that sort of healthy strategic given from that pattern? And what kind of boundaries can women be setting to make sure they also still continue to gain?
Speaker 2:So I noticed that there are a lot of women putting a huge amount of effort, and rightly so, into women's networks industry. And also a lot of women, and this is fantastic news for our industry, sharing some of the big professional bodies in our industry now, which is just you know, it is absolutely as it should be and it's amazing to see. And I often wonder the same thing. How does she do it? How do we do it?
Speaker 2:So there's two things. One of them is the positive side of this and the science behind this is the polyvagal nerve, the vagus nerve that we have that basically runs down the back of our neck and and into our in down our backs and controls or governs or influences how our nervous system feels a lot of the time. So, ideally, we want to be in a relaxed nervous system state. The world that we live in and the way that we work often leaves us in fight flight. One of the things that actually calms our vagus nerve down, I found this really interesting, is social connection.
Speaker 2:So one of the positive ways to look at reaching out and being in connection with others and being in powerful networks and being in a room full of amazing women is that actually we are we are supporting ourselves. We are nourishing ourselves through that process of being around others. So we're not just giving. We are genuinely nourishing ourselves as well. But where's where's the boundary?
Speaker 2:Where do we start saying no? The boundary, think, has to be drawn when you're thinking about what the impact is that you want to create. And one of the most important things to think about is what your personal vision is. So if you've got your work vision, your team vision, you know, every every organization and team has a purpose and a vision, that's fantastic. What gets lost a little bit in that organizational world and being part of a team and part of a bigger machine is what your personal vision is for you.
Speaker 2:And there's some beautiful work by a guy called Peter Sengem. He wrote a book a long time ago called The Fifth Discipline, which is about systems thinking. And of the five disciplines, one of the ones he talks about is something called personal mastering. And part of personal mastering, which is a really important principle for your leadership, I'd encourage anybody to go out and just read a bit about it, is understanding what your personal vision is. Where can I put my energy such that my impact is going to be amplified and maximized?
Speaker 2:So it's a bit of that way. There's a lovely phrase, isn't there? Where your focus goes, your energy flows. What are the groups and the communities that I can put some energy into that once my energy flows into those spaces, it absolutely is maximised and amplified.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thank you. That's really useful. And and for for women who are listening who aren't yet in senior roles, what are some practical ways that they they can give? So recognising that we were just talking about being time poor.
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what where it it either does or doesn't genuinely help others but also supports their own progression.
Speaker 2:So be really targeted and look at the opportunities that are in front of you and say which one of these is going to give me the most satisfaction at this point in my career. Because early in your career you're still feeling your way into so many things. You're still trying to understand who you are as a human being, who you are in this world and who you are in this world of work. And so you get to try and test things and see what they're like. So I'd be looking at one or two things.
Speaker 2:Just start with one or two things and say, what would I like to give a little bit of my spare time to? What would bring me joy? And what would I love what experience would I love to learn from? Because if follow those two principles, you're very likely to find yourself in a community or in a group or in a network where you can help others as well and where everybody's going to benefit.
Speaker 1:And giving that sort of support, going back to sort of women in senior roles, what does sort of giving to gain mean in that context to you? And why is it particularly relevant to the industry that we're in?
Speaker 2:Relevant to the world that we live in. If you read autobiographies of major female political figures, so Michelle Obama's autobiography is a superb read. And she talks about putting a hand out to help other people up behind you. You know, making sure that as you step up another rung of the ladder, you know, you've got your hand out, making sure that the next person comes up behind you. You'll find that's a bit of a theme for lots of women who have found themselves in in powerful roles.
Speaker 2:As a whole industry, one of the things that I really notice when I'm in workshops, coaching teams, sitting with them in quite intimate deep conversations sometimes, is that one of the strongest and most emotive themes for people, and people have genuinely, you know, shed tears in these conversations on multiple occasions, is when they talk about the support that the network, the construction family has provided for them. This industry that we live in is not a series of organisations, know. It's a whole living organism full of people who want to look after each other if they're given the opportunity. And that's really what keeps the whole thing going. Know, it might it's not project plans and don't you know, don't don't shoot me down here.
Speaker 2:Some of the people that you're to this is not it's not Gantt charts. It is the people who are continually connecting with each other and building trust and building relationships, working together side by side, day by day, navigating challenges together across organizations that really make this industry work. So as senior women in this industry, when we give back, we don't just give back because we want more women in this industry. We absolutely do. So it couldn't be more important for us to make sure that we do give time to that.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. That's such a lovely note to end on as well. And also, it kind of goes right back to the name of your company as well and your organisation, Beautiful Minds. And we're we're a collective group of Beautiful Minds if we find the time and space to to tap into that. This really has been another wonderful conversation with you.
Speaker 1:And, again, I'm leaving feeling super energized. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this episode, we have a whole library of previous episodes featuring some incredible women. Just search Osborne Clarke Building Women, or you can find us wherever you get your podcasts.