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The Tracks Nobody Sees, But Every Marketer Should Hear.
This podcast celebrates the hidden gems of marketing insight found across all professions—both within and beyond traditional marketing roles. Just as B-sides on a single contain brilliant tracks that are treasured by true fans, every profession contains marketing wisdom that isn't obvious at first glance but is incredibly valuable when discovered.
Tom Hootman (03:39)
the question for the uninitiated, if you could boil, like, look, what are the two to three songs on a playlist that sum up your career or your journey or your role that you would pick?
Go for it. Number one.
Rebecca Fleetwood (03:51)
My first one is... Which one did I list first?
Tom Hootman (03:54)
Vienna by Billy Joel.
Rebecca Fleetwood (03:55)
Vienna
yeah, I was like, what order did I put them in? The lyrics to that song could literally be the soundtrack of my coaching business because it's, hey, let's just take a beat so we can access our prefrontal cortex because your nervous system is too dysregulated thinking you've got to just chase it and if you don't chase it in hurry, you're going to lose it. Slow down.
You're doing fine.
Tom Hootman (04:18)
Slow down, you're doing fine. I love that.
Rebecca Fleetwood (04:21)
And that's the song I go to when I want to just feel but not in a radical specific kind of way like you know there are certain times you just need some Eminem and there are certain times you need like there's certain like extremes that you go to for to feel something but that's a song that I can go to at any point that just kind of puts me where I need to be.
Tom Hootman (04:46)
in a good spot. ⁓
Rebecca Fleetwood (04:46)
It's like a glass
of champagne if it's not available to me I can listen to that
Tom Hootman (04:49)
Yeah, I get that.
The second you picked was Drake White. Drake White, is that a country artist?
Rebecca Fleetwood (04:54)
Yeah, country, folky, raw. Yeah, he's cross genre kind of guy. This song, I love the lyrics because ⁓ The Power of a Woman is the name of the song, but the lyric is what I love. He says, she loves tequila and Jesus because they make her feel warm. And I love his vibe and that's just kind of me. I love Jesus, but I cuss a little and drink tequila.
Tom Hootman (05:04)
power of a woman, right?
Rebecca Fleetwood (05:20)
And he's got a soothing kind of tone to his voice that I like. But that song is so weird. Like it will show up at times that are significant in my life on my playlist. Like so much so that it gets my attention. So I was in Nashville, Tennessee for a friend's bachelorette party, as you do.
But my son also lives there, so I'm there a lot. But I was there for a bachelorette party. so I was staying at this hotel off, not on Broadway, but off, not in the busy district part of life for Nashville. And I'm on a run one day. And this person, this woman, had heard me speak at a keynote event the week before, followed me on Instagram.
saw that I was going to be in Nashville at the same time she was going to be in Nashville and said to herself, I really hope I run into Rebecca.
Tom Hootman (06:11)
Come on.
Rebecca Fleetwood (06:11)
And I run into this girl on a random street in Nashville, random. And she says, no, by myself on a run that morning. Yeah. Yeah. Before, you know, we were out and about. wasn't drinking. It was morning. I was just out for a run. And I don't know her because I just did a keynote that she was in the audience. And she walks up to me crying. It slowed down. I was getting close to the hotel and she said,
Tom Hootman (06:17)
with a a bachelor party in tow. By yourself. Okay.
Rebecca Fleetwood (06:38)
Rebecca?" And I was like, yes? And she said, you don't know me, but, and she starts pouring out this story about how much this keynote that I had done had been to her, and she was literally like praying that she'd run into me.
I kid you not. And immediately after we met, we took a picture of fiance at the time they're married now. We just had this beautiful conversation about her life and what's going on in her life. And of course, I'm kind of shook because it's like, this is cool, but also weird. And as soon as I put my headphones back in to finish my run, that song comes on. And that song does that through all kinds of weird
Tom Hootman (07:05)
Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood (07:16)
parts of my life, that song will pop up. Randomly. Fascinating!
Tom Hootman (07:19)
Fascinating.
Also fascinating, you said she prayed that she would meet you, which tells me like, that's great, but how do they prioritize what prayers to answer then? mean, aren't there more urgent prayers out there that should be getting addressed? It's like a random queue.
Rebecca Fleetwood (07:28)
Listen, I- I- the things I
pray for you would crack you up. No, we're- we're a lot- he's not- he's not just 911 emergency. He's- he's- he's there for whatever.
Tom Hootman (07:35)
It's the same algorithm as the Spotify DJ.
Right. Pick up the random,
hey, you're hungry and forgot about this candy bar in your pocket. It's good. We got that too. You got to keep them guessing. The third song. I think it's someone near and dear to you.
Rebecca Fleetwood (07:51)
yeah.
It is, it is by my son, Cameron Hushen, and it's called Clouds. And I picked this one not just to pimp him out because I love him and he's my son and all that, when some music, we love music, it's the foundation of your life, I know, and mine. But when you raise a songwriter and a musician,
There is a different level of appreciation for the journey that one must go through to go from not knowing how to play an instrument, write a song, to then having something that plays on Spotify and you watch people at a gig sing along to a song that your child wrote.
Tom Hootman (08:34)
crazy.
Rebecca Fleetwood (08:35)
It's crazy. And so he wrote this one. This is one of the first songs that he wrote. And so when you were listening to a songwriter who's writing usually at two and three in the morning, because he was, you know, working retail, all the things, you listen to the same riffs over and over and over and over and over and over again, because they're creating it. And there comes a point when you're like, if I have to hear that F-ing song one more time, I'm gonna lose my mind.
And then it becomes a thing and it goes into the recording studio and it's beautiful and it has all the backtrack, so it's great. But that experience is so unique and beautiful. But the words to the song are also why I picked it because it's one of those songs that anybody can listen to and derive a little different meaning out of it. But it's, know, the catchy little riff is, I'm not coming down, I like it up here in the clouds.
Tom Hootman (09:04)
Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood (09:24)
And it's about, you know, I'm gonna be a dreamer whether you like it or not. And it's just the words reflect kind of who we are as a family too. Like I was never the parent that said, you've got to do this, like societal expectations. I was a, let's figure out what your dreams are and then we'll figure it out from there. So that's my three.
Tom Hootman (09:38)
C'mon.
Yeah.
could tell you were a cool mom. You're a cool mom.
I know you're a cool mom. The vibe's easy to pick up with you. ⁓
Rebecca Fleetwood (09:49)
Sometimes I was so
dysregulated as a mom. I was in corporate sales. I was losing my shit most days. In fact, I just did a TikTok. Cameron said to me, he has this memory of something about when he was trading Pokemon cards on the bus and it's not accurate. His memory is not at all accurate. And I said, that's not true. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, I didn't say that. I said, here's what you need to understand.
I was completely dysregulated all the time when you were a child. I was barely listening, I was barely hanging on, and I was making surface level decisions that, praise God, worked out, but you put a little more depth into what was happening in your childhood that was actually...
Tom Hootman (10:25)
Help me
understand when you say, what do mean by dysregulated?
Rebecca Fleetwood (10:29)
Well, our nervous system needs the flow of being activated, get excited, get even scared, like something that just like activates you. It also needs connection. We need to be able to access our relationships, feel open and safe enough to have a conversation. And typically business people are
overly activated all the time and it shuts down connection because when you're overly activated all the time and you don't go to shut down, so there's three levels, connection, activation, shutdown, when we don't go to rest and restore and shut down on a regular basis, the activation just stays buzzing and so it cuts off connection because it only has so much energy to run and so your
nervous system is trying to conserve energy to make sure you survive and the place that it cuts off is listening and empathy and real connection because it thinks you're running from a bear all the time. And that's the way my life was.
Tom Hootman (11:26)
Was how long ago? How long have you been coaching now? When did you start? When did you jump from? When'd you jump from the awful word world of corporate sales and dysregulation into this serendipitous? I'm sure. I'm sure very calm coaching. It's just easy.
Rebecca Fleetwood (11:29)
This will be my 10 year anniversary.
Terry did this. When it's all just easy, yeah.
2016, it's been 10 years. And I didn't realize that until I was thinking about that, answering that question for you today. was like, this is my 10 year anniversary. And actually, I filled out my business license. I remember it was in February. So literally, like exactly 10 years.
Tom Hootman (11:52)
Happy anniversary.
10 years ago. Congratulations, that's wonderful.
Rebecca Fleetwood (12:02)
Is that even possible? Thanks.
Tom Hootman (12:04)
Well, there's
a lot has gone down in the last 10 years, right? it's like, you know, I wanted to ask you, like, what are the common challenges that that leaders or executives or managers come to you with? But really, there's a second part of that. That's almost, think I want to know more is that like, how has it changed? Like when you first started what people came to you with versus how
Rebecca Fleetwood (12:07)
Right?
Tom Hootman (12:26)
Because I think it's a good window into how the world has changed. Has it changed? I'm guessing. And it's very different today, the problems you're helping people work through versus 2017.
Rebecca Fleetwood (12:28)
Yeah.
I'm so glad you asked that. I do this event every year in March called Stand Tall In Your Story. And it's a celebration of seven months of coaching that I've done with a small group of women here in the Indianapolis area. And so I have this view of it that is based on having this group every year for the last seven years and a little bit of a here are the stories that came out of each cohort, each season is what I call them.
And so I have this ability now to look back over the way that their stories played out, because they tell their own story, Ted-like style, on stage each year. And the themes and the background of those stories have been reflected of what's happening from a societal perspective. And I started paying attention to this a couple of years ago, and it's so fascinating. So when I first started it, it was...
five days before the world shut down in 2020. My first event was in March of 2020. And that, you know, it's the first event and it was a pretty traditional experience from a coaching perspective. But what I'm able to do is provide this really safe place for people where they feel comfortable telling me stuff that they might not divulge to somebody else. And so I had these...
these experiences where women got on stage and I mean one of them came out as a lesbian couple that none of her colleagues knew when she'd worked there for eight years. Like that's the story she told on stage. And you know others told like kind of childhood trauma kind of stuff and how it shaped how they saw their business and it was just this very like
vulnerability need. was like business had chewed up too much of their time and energy and they were ready to be themselves again. They were ready to just like emerge more authentically before we use the word authentic so much as we do now. And that was like, wow. I mean, it even shocked me. The stories that they told, it was so beautiful. Actually, it was like, oh my gosh, they got to be themselves on stage, not just who the business told them to be. So then 2020 hits.
well, that rocks everybody's world. And so the next year's talks were a lot more processing fear, processing what that meant, what fear meant to them and processing loss of control because, you know, we all thought we had life figured out and then we realized it wasn't nearly as guaranteed as we thought. the priorities shifted.
And everybody was in this sea of uncertainty, like, what's gonna happen? I don't know. And so it was just this weird kind of, stories were pretty dark that year. Like, so much so I was like, I don't know if I should keep doing this. Like, it was dark. I was like, I probably need an actual therapist. Like, it was wild. And then the next year, you start to see a little more hope emerging. And then every year since,
Because people had that forced reflection time, like, is this really all I want for my life? Is this really it? Like, every... Yeah! Every year since, there's been more... more desire of that. Like, I now know that the like, I don't have nearly as much control over my life as I thought I did. There's so much going on around me, dumpster fire chaos, that I need to pay more attention to me and my family and not get so caught up in my identity being...
so much of my job. And every year it's more and more and more of that.
Tom Hootman (15:59)
Yeah, there's, in my experience, I almost like would resent it when people would try to like, when I left my last job and started this company, people like, there's a tendency still for people to want to like, and this is a bit older school of like, what's the reason you're leaving? Right? Like, why are you leaving? And my mom had recently passed and I'd been thinking about doing something different for a very long time.
Rebecca Fleetwood (16:15)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Tom Hootman (16:24)
And it's like, that wasn't the reason at all. It was like one of a lot of reasons. And I would get short, like, no, that's not why I'm leaving. Cause it was, it's really easy to look at the calendar and be like, okay, you came back from leave a few months later, you've put in your notice. Obviously that's had an impact on you. And it's like, I think that's kind of a pre, that's like a
pre-COVID-y kind of way of thinking about it. Why did they leave? It's like more money or the hours weren't good or they had to relocate or they didn't like their boss. It's like, it's all of that. Like, I think people are much more complex today.
Rebecca Fleetwood (16:48)
Yeah.
And that's not handy for a leader. The complexity of humans is not convenient for a leader, especially one that's trying to lead large numbers of people. And so the control part of things, like the big tagline for a while when we had mass exodus after 2020 where people were just like, it's not worth it, I quit. The big mantra was keep your people.
Tom Hootman (17:02)
No.
Rebecca Fleetwood (17:23)
How do we keep our people? And so I started putting up visuals that look like business people working in jail. Like I would just put bars over. Yeah, I was like, what do you mean keep your people? Like create the conditions where they wanna stay. They're not hostages. yeah, it's control is a, it's a problem.
Tom Hootman (17:30)
Yeah, the cage.
It's, I come from a couple lines of work that are very non-compete, NDA focused. And it's really interesting to think about some of the NDAs I was asked to sign that were like very, it was about keeping people and prohibiting them. And it's interesting because I recently caught up with a founder from another agency who I just met and we were talking about
Rebecca Fleetwood (17:48)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (18:06)
I always say this, I'd never realized how many people freelance in this business. I always kind of knew, but everyone does a little bit of side work. I, this is, I'll give you this, some of the credit on this, like run towards that, embrace it. Like we built it, I built it into the handbook, you can freelance, because you're going to do it anyway. Like, let's just admit that this occurs and have it, and this, this founder was like, they, they shouldn't do that. That's illegal. And I was like, that's illegal. What are we 12? Like, what do you mean that's illegal?
Rebecca Fleetwood (18:25)
Yep.
Tom Hootman (18:33)
You just declare bankruptcy. declare bankruptcy. It was like a weird like
Rebecca Fleetwood (18:36)
I had a consultant
that used to say that the measure of a good company was nobody wanted a side hustle. And I fought him on that constantly. I was like, why can't somebody get a paycheck one place and fulfill of creative space somewhere else? Well, that just means that the company isn't doing enough to engage their employees. was like, that's not true. Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Hootman (18:57)
No, no.
I mean, in marketing, so much of it is. There could be someone I worked with 15 years ago, who has been in house for a decade, and they're delighted with their in house role, but they're in house for a SaaS startup. And they really worry about not being up to the kind of their skills sharp for e commerce. And they're never going to work in e commerce marketing or e commerce paid media.
unless they do a little freelancing and part of it is like, hey, like I used to have a couple of e-commerce clients. I haven't done e-commerce in years. You got any e-commerce I could work on? Cause it's fun. It's different. It's like a hobby. they're putting together a different puzzle.
Rebecca Fleetwood (19:31)
Yeah.
Yep. Yep. And I always, when people come to me when career coaching, I ask them, we running from something or to something? just, either one's fine, but let's be clear on what's the gig here.
Tom Hootman (19:50)
What are the majority of people who come to you, are they running from something or to something?
Rebecca Fleetwood (19:54)
In the way I see it or then the way they see it
Tom Hootman (19:56)
I want the way you
see it because I've been I've been in this chair on the other side of you for many years and I know that there's ways I see it and then you challenge me and I'm like, yeah, you're right. Shut up. Stop it.
Rebecca Fleetwood (20:05)
They want to be running to something, but it usually takes some level of pain in their current reality to get them to consider it. Sound familiar? Because we are... Creatures of habit is a nervous system function. Our nervous system believes that same equals safe. And so most high performers have both a loyalty
Tom Hootman (20:16)
Yeah, a little.
Rebecca Fleetwood (20:32)
But more than loyalty, it's a, can fix this. I can figure it out, I can make this work. And so they'll stay in situations until it is grossly uncomfortable and then start thinking, well, maybe there's something better. So they'll frame it as, no, I'm running to something, I'm really excited about this. But I'm thinking to myself, you wouldn't have unless that other place got painful.
Now my experience with Franklin Covey was sort of like that, but the company didn't do anything to create the pain for me. So I'd been at Franklin Covey for 20 years, holy crap, and I just didn't have enough creative freedom. And I was starting to feel just like grind, bored, this isn't enough for me. But it wasn't because the company did something wrong.
But the discomfort in me said, the company is moving in a way that you're gonna have less creative freedom. Are you gonna go do the thing that you know that you need to do? Or are you gonna stay where you're comfortable? And ultimately I don't.
Tom Hootman (21:35)
It's God, it's you're so fucking true. It's the it gets I think we all kind of fool ourselves into and I try to think of like an analogy or correlation and all of them are really dark and it's like work isn't necessarily as dark and I don't want to I don't want to I mean, I don't want to belittle some of the like what's in my head of like like the associations but like there's a there's situations where things are bad and you know, you should make a change or you it's time you need to challenge yourself but then you you have one good day or two good days.
or one good interaction and you're like, see, like this is how it could be. And you're not realizing that you're focusing on the exception, not the rule. And it's hard to take.
Rebecca Fleetwood (22:12)
I believe
that it is gonna get better because you're used to making things better. You're a high performer. So you're like, surely I can make this better. I can fix this. Yeah. I have this going on right now with a client. She messaged me today and she said, last session, two weeks ago, she was out. It's time, let's go. Been there 25 years. She was excited. She was ready. She had already called HR. She was negotiating. And today it was...
Tom Hootman (22:20)
can fix it. I can, because we all want to be the hero.
Rebecca Fleetwood (22:40)
They want me to stay. I'm conflicted. But I feel okay about it. And I could just hear the tone. And I said, okay. I said, will you do me a favor this weekend? Will you just write at the top of your journal, what is true? That's it. Just what is true. And just follow that thought around for a while. Because I don't care if she stays or she goes as long as she's staying true to herself and her gifts and talents and her dreams and desires. don't...
⁓ doesn't matter to me.
Tom Hootman (23:07)
Yeah, very, very, I believe this in my heart, like you could have a, you can be ready to leave and be in and ready to start something new. Very few jobs are quite literally like, I'm going to throw my laptop against the wall and storm out of here while flipping everybody off. Those jobs exist. But what happens though? Well, think I've done the same thing. I don't know if it was a Wendy's though. I think it was, I think it was a Full of Pep rental store that I was like,
Rebecca Fleetwood (23:21)
I walked out of a Wendy's like that once, but we can talk about that another time.
Keep going, sorry.
Tom Hootman (23:33)
I'm out of here, fuck this. But there's a, there are good, it's not that black or white. And I went through this when I left, like it's sad to leave because there are so many good people. It's not a bad place. Like they do really great work and I really love everyone here. It's just time for me. It's like finding your reason for leaving. And I think people can get nostalgic.
Rebecca Fleetwood (23:53)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (23:53)
really
early. Once they say they're going to leave, everyone wants to keep you and everyone's sad you're leaving. And there's this you want to like Leonardo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street. I'm not fucking leaving. Right. Like you look people in the eye and you're like, maybe if I just stay, it'll be great. But you know, four minutes after you stay, you're going to be like, oh, shit, because now now it's going to be bad. Now you're to feel like an idiot and now they'll be mad at you. Now, if you do it and you leave now.
Rebecca Fleetwood (24:11)
Yep. You re-up. Cause now you feel like an idiot if you went...
Tom Hootman (24:20)
They're gonna be like, what's up with this person, man? We worked hard to keep them and they left again. it's tough.
Rebecca Fleetwood (24:25)
Yeah, it's so true. And that is your nervous system trying to protect you because it really does believe that same equals safe. And so anytime you want to invoke change in your life, any uncertainty, your nervous system is gonna go, hold up, are you sure we wanna do that? That's gonna take a lot more energy than we usually. And so that's why people stay in abusive relationships because staying in a known pain feels
easier than the uncertainty of what's going to happen when I leave.
Tom Hootman (24:54)
It's a safe pain because you know what it is.
Rebecca Fleetwood (24:56)
Yep,
yep, 100%.
Tom Hootman (24:58)
So you work with a lot of leaders. Do you work executives, managers, leaders, organizations?
Rebecca Fleetwood (25:04)
Mostly executives and founders. VP founder level. VP CEO's founders.
Tom Hootman (25:09)
perfect. What are like that everyone wants to know this shit because everything is like AI slop and Instagram slop now right and there's a lot of bullshit out there about like here's what here's the what all great leaders do and it's like how did this get my algorithm because I just watched it that's why it's in my algorithm. It doesn't. Yeah, this is Zuckerberg doesn't know that I like I I almost vomited when I saw it and I scoffed he just knows that I watched it.
Rebecca Fleetwood (25:22)
you
There'll be another one when you go back later.
You
Tom Hootman (25:33)
Like what are the habits or routines that separate like in your opinion, the high performing executives from the rest?
Rebecca Fleetwood (25:40)
It seems like there should be just a simple answer and there's not. The great leaders...
care for themselves well. And I know that sounds trite and I know that sounds silly. But here's why that matters. It is a nervous system science thing. So when you care for yourself, you take breaks, you don't schedule yourself back to back, you have greater access to your decision making. Your prefrontal cortex is available to make better decisions. Your creativity is available to you.
When you're the leader that thinks that grinding and back to back to back and getting caught up all the time is the way you win, you get dumber and you get less creative. Full stop. Just period. And so those that take care of themselves are better. They just are. And they're more self-aware, which then allows them to have more empathy and understanding of just the human condition.
Because if you've taken the time to understand yourself at a deep level, and I don't just mean like surface-y level, like I have a gym membership and I don't eat carbs. Because that's something, when you say taking care of yourself, that's what a lot of people think.
Tom Hootman (26:46)
Yeah, I was gonna ask I was gonna ask you to follow up on that. Seriously,
because that's immediately where people's heads go. Okay, great. They drink it. They drink eight glasses of water a day. No, it's not.
Rebecca Fleetwood (26:51)
Yeah.
Yeah,
but I'm talking about, do you understand why you believe what you believe? Do you understand why you do what you do? Do you understand who you serve and why it matters? I'm talking about beliefs, which is even more than values. Values, I don't know, I'm over the whole values conversation, because nobody really understands what it means. And to me, values shift and change too rapidly.
based on situations that they're not reliable, but beliefs get to like childhood shit. Beliefs run deep and they are a key in this kind of triad. There's beliefs, there's your nervous system state, and then there's the habits and patterns that fall from those things. And when you have things that you don't like about your life,
If you just go to change the habit without understanding the belief that was driving it or the nervous system state that was driving it, you probably won't stick with the change and it's just surface-y level stuff. But those that are willing to dig deep, they're different in all the right ways.
Tom Hootman (27:55)
How often do you think people who don't take care of themselves...
behaving to get in those behavioral patterns out of guilt like I know great example I know it's it's not a running joke, but like I After 4 p.m You're gonna get a different version of me than you're gonna get at 1030 and at 230 so I try not to take like high intensity meetings or anything that takes a lot of like serious in concentration after four and there are days where I'm like That feels like I'm taking an easy way out
Rebecca Fleetwood (28:11)
Mm-hmm.
Tom Hootman (28:25)
right? Like, shouldn't I be grinding? This isn't very grind core of me. Do you have a lot of leaders who do who do that shit to themselves because they think that's what they have to do? Is that it?
Rebecca Fleetwood (28:34)
Yeah, yeah,
that's the societal pattern that we were taught. It's been passed on generation, generation to generation. that's, it's, everybody's different from a belief perspective, but the patterns from a society perspective is external validation is what we've been raised on. It started with grades in school. Like we were externally validated. Very few times did somebody in...
our age group, my age group, where somebody sat down with a young person and said, so tell me a little bit about what you're good at and what you love to do. It was get good grades, have good attendance, prove yourself, work hard, and then you'll get the opportunities that you need. And so prove yourself became the thing. And if you're driven by external validation, now you've got fear, now you've got
I can never stop working because then I'm gonna get behind.
It's not good. It's also the root cause of burnout. It's proving it.
Tom Hootman (29:27)
That's not good.
So are
you reading ahead? Burnout. So what's the next question? like, yeah, I want to hear great advice on like how leaders can avoid it. But also, I fought you on this. I still fight you on this because there are times you're looking out for me. And I remember I posted something on LinkedIn where I said a conversation Amy and I had and she said, I've never seen you work so much. I've also she's kind of like, I've never seen such a good mood either. It's crazy.
Rebecca Fleetwood (29:33)
Okay.
Tom Hootman (29:55)
And I was like really, really fired up and amped up and you were like, hey, watch out for burnout, my man. And I was like, what are you talking about? There are times I still fight you on it, but there are times I'm like, you got a minute, because I am tired in a way that makes me scared, right? Like I'm tired, but not sleepy. It's like, does everyone fight you about this when you're coaching them about burnout? Or are people like, yes, I'm burnt out.
Rebecca Fleetwood (30:20)
They always fight me in the beginning or they're just barely hanging on and they'll do anything I say because they're desperate. Those are the two approaches. But okay, let's talk about two kinds of tired. There's the kind of tired that you just feel like, I can't do this again tomorrow. And it's a different kind of tired because it's not physical, it's...
it's a different kind of drain off of your system that usually is you're doing work that's not aligned with your unique gifts and talents. You're so wrapped up in your identity with your job that you're afraid to even stop thinking about it if you're not logged on. So there's this like vigilance that your nervous system is constantly scanning to make sure you're okay.
And so from an energy and nervous system perspective, your cells are vibrating like you're being chased by a tiger even when you're not logged on because you're like, I hope something doesn't fall apart while I'm not there. And then there's the kind of tired where you're in it and you're excited and the work is lining up with your gifts and talents and you are just on fire. You can't wait to get up and do it again. That's great.
And the cautionary tale why I messaged you after that post was I don't want you to get your identity so wrapped up in the excitement of it that you... it's like a high you're chasing. It's a dopamine high that you're chasing. And either of those paths take you where you don't want to go. And so you've got to have a healthy look at the way your cells work so you're not just wearing yourself out.
Tom Hootman (31:58)
It also, you get addicted to a pace that's it's it's not that it's not sustainable. It's that the business doesn't the business doesn't move at that pace forever. It is there are slow days and there are slow weeks and the pipelines less full sometimes and it's more full and you could have six pitches on the calendar that you're preparing for and you get addicted to that and what happens in my experience is like when there's only three pitches on the calendar, you're looking around like
⁓ are we circling the drain? What is happening? It's over. And it's not over. It's a breather. It's like this is normal, right? And you get addicted to that high of being super swamped, even if you're excited about it. And then what can happen is when it goes back down, you can make bad decisions about the business or about your team or about how hard you're pushing people because your lizard brain is going off about like,
Rebecca Fleetwood (32:30)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (32:50)
Hey, it's really slow. got to do something. And it's like, no, it's not. No, it's not. It's halftime. It's the end of the first quarter.
Rebecca Fleetwood (32:55)
And you know, I was raised on Franklin Covey, was there 20 years, but it's seed time and harvest. So go out and plant some seeds, let's water them, and trust that the harvest is gonna come. But if you keep ripping up the plants and checking to see if they're growing and freaking out and driving everybody crazy, that's not gonna
Tom Hootman (33:10)
I got great advice from this, this one of my first sales trainers out in the field. Shout out Tom Carnahan, wherever he is. And it was like, it's very much, it was like a ride joke about outside sales. That's true. It is true. Cause this is how companies work. You go out and you have a record setting year. You win every award at the banquet. You go on the president's club trips. You kick insane amounts of ass. You're up 180%. They create your sales plan the next year.
Rebecca Fleetwood (33:17)
you
and then the first day of a new fiscal
year.
Tom Hootman (33:40)
your sales plan for next year is great. It's 200 % because you showed us you could do 180. And I remember he pulled me aside once and he said, hey kid, it's an every other year business. Just keep that in mind. And it's hilarious because I know what he was saying is a joke, but there's truth in that. And it's like, what do you say? Seed, time and harvest. Like you can't physically, you have to be able to look back and be like, hey, that person was up 250 % last year. That is otherworldly.
Rebecca Fleetwood (33:58)
Yeah.
Tom Hootman (34:07)
We can't set their base sales plan at that again.
Rebecca Fleetwood (34:10)
I advise leaders about that often. Burning out your top performers is one of the big leadership misses because a leader gets freaked out and desperate and where are you gonna go if you are freaked out and desperate? somebody who just no matter what is willing to work harder to make it happen.
And so then what you've done is reinforced the pattern of prove yourself to the top performer. And so their burnout is just around the corner when you do that to them over and over and over again. Listen, I lived that life. I was in corporate sales for 20 years, but I learned the hard way, because I got to that point where my goals were so high that I thought I dreaded the beginning of a new year. I dreaded it because I knew it was like, and so I learned to step back and say, okay, I can't just keep working harder.
Tom Hootman (34:34)
Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood (34:54)
I gave everything I had last year. So what am I gonna do differently this year that's gonna give me greater results that doesn't require me to work more hours? And that set me apart because I made some significant changes that later became things that the company implemented for everybody else because I just was to the point, you know, was raising kids and trying to survive and hit million dollar goals and...
I just was like, okay, I can't work harder. I gotta work differently. What does that look like? And then I would shift some things. Listen, I can remember being a few drinks in at the award thing and handed my trophy to some stranger in the elevator because I just had it. He was like, congratulations. I was like, you want this? He was like, what do mean? I said, I can't, I can't keep doing that.
Tom Hootman (35:37)
I'm done.
Rebecca Fleetwood (35:38)
He goes, I literally, I'm having therapy moment in the elevator with this guy and he goes, what do you mean? And I said, I'm exhausted. What am I gonna do with this? Now I gotta get it on a plane. It's really a bigger pain in my ass than it is an award. Would you just take it off my hand?
Tom Hootman (35:51)
I respect that. I respect that. you chase the trophy, right? You want the awards. like a little pat on the back.
Rebecca Fleetwood (35:56)
Yeah, yeah, and it's
not that you want the awards. You don't want to be the one that didn't get the award.
Tom Hootman (36:02)
Yeah. And I think some people, I was really competitive. So I wanted, I thought of it as like, I got my ring, right? Like.
Rebecca Fleetwood (36:09)
External validation.
Tom Hootman (36:10)
Yeah, straight up. I
want to talk a bit about you help people solve problems. People come to you they argue with it. You argue with people until they see the light, is how I'll put it. But we talk about burnout, we talk about being tired, we talk about a lot of the fundamental makeup for how we behave. what do many leaders think they're really great at that they're not?
Rebecca Fleetwood (36:33)
Communication.
Tom Hootman (36:34)
just with their like overall with their teams because there are there. Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood (36:36)
Overall
in general as a skill set Great can okay. So if someone is a good speaker They're articulate they Are good storyteller they they just can tell they can just talk to people
That is only one aspect of communication. So they should probably go be a keynote speaker. They should do something where they can use that skill that it is one way communication. So I say those leaders just put up a billboard and they want people to drive by it and go, yes, they're right. They're so smart. Did you hear that talk that they gave? They're right. That's not the way humans work.
And so a good communicator is thinking about sharing the context, not just the information. They're thinking about, how can I ask questions to make sure that I understand how they're receiving it? And they're clarifying and they're saying, well, how do you feel about that? What do you think about that? And it doesn't always mean that they are...
The reason most leaders don't do that is they're afraid if they ask a question or engage in a conversation about the topic, that that means they're willing to change their mind. And that's not what I'm talking about. A person can't just hear something and automatically just be like, yes, that's right. They need dialogue and they need to see it from their perspective. And what do you mean by that? How did you come to that?
And if you're willing to engage in a conversation, you're gonna get a deeper level of commitment. And so even if you're not willing to change the directive, the strategy, whatever it is, just by allowing someone to ask questions and have a dialogue, you're gonna get greater buy-in. Now sometimes you want a leader that is willing to have their mind changed, that through the dialogue, they realize they'd missed something. I thought that was the right idea.
Tom Hootman (38:28)
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Fleetwood (38:30)
But now that I've heard you talking about it, we should probably go back and reconsider this as a team or as a company. Those are great communicators. So I had a boss at Franklin Covey one time, and I was a top performer, always willing to do whatever it took to win, to get that glass award. And we were changing the way that we were doing some things that really were gonna, it was gonna change the way that salespeople operated.
And it was a solution that we were eventually going to sell to the market. So we had to use it on ourselves first before we could take it to market. It's four disciplines of execution, which is best seller, all the things. I had my own systems and processes that I had developed. Remember I said I was the one that every year was like, okay, I got to figure out a new way to do this. So I was constantly developing my own stuff to run my little team.
Tom Hootman (39:05)
Yeah.
Rebecca Fleetwood (39:18)
I wasn't known for being a joiner of what the company wanted to do. I was known as being the renegade that was going to figure it out. And there was lots of like, well, you can't scale what Rebecca does. She's just kind of a unicorn-y kind of thing. And so when this came up, my boss called me and he said, hey, I need to talk to you. Which already was like, excuse me. My goal was never to have to talk to my boss. Like, get good enough results that your boss never talks to you. Perfect.
Tom Hootman (39:23)
Shocking.
Rebecca Fleetwood (39:45)
I said what's up? And he said hey, we're gonna run this play and I need you to do it And he just paused He'd never given me a directive before ever Because he just cashed my checks, right? And I said what do ya mean? And he said no, I need you to do it follow it to the tee because people are watching you
Tom Hootman (39:59)
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Fleetwood (40:07)
and you're influencing the team and I need you to do it. And because he cared enough about me and the way that we had the conversation was kind and it was thoughtful and he knew me and he knew what I was really gonna think about it, I said, okay, I'm in. And he said, really? And I said, listen, you've never come to me like this before. I love you, I trust you.
I'll do it." And he said, okay. And so I did. And I went all in, because I'd made him that promise, and I will always keep my promise. And then I figured out that the system actually worked, which was kind of disappointing, because I really wanted to be able to go and say, look, I tried, and you know. And so I didn't admit it for a while, but then I realized that I could get better results with less time. And I ultimately, became one of the people that designed the...
client implementation process for the solution because I got so bought in. But had he just sent me a message with everybody else, I wouldn't have done it. And if he would have handled it not kindly, I would have rebelled against it. But because he was kind and because we had a conversation, he and I, one on one, that's a great communicator who looks at the team and says, who needs what? Not just.
blanket, message out, put up the billboard and they'll know what to do. It's, ⁓ I'm gonna have a one-on-one with Rebecca because she needs a different kind of communication. That's good communicator.
Tom Hootman (41:28)
want to applaud one more thing that this person did that I'm sure you picked up on because you cited it first. When you jumped in this conversation with him, he told you the headline and then he did the hardest thing in the world for anyone who works in sales to do, which is shut up. And he let it breathe for probably what felt like nine minutes to him.
because you're fiery, you're pestuous, you're ready to go. And I'm sure that those 10 seconds were really the longest 10 seconds of his week. But it allowed you to not just think on it for a hot second, but also you probably subconsciously pick up on the fact that this is a different conversation.
Rebecca Fleetwood (41:52)
you
Yeah, 100%. I'll never, I remember where I was sitting in my home office when we had the conversation. It was a significant turning point, learning for both of us. Yeah, he's a good dude.
Tom Hootman (42:18)
I'll also
say this, this aligns with something you said earlier. I'm catching myself thinking through what I do every day. When you talk about communication and asking questions, I think every leader realizes they don't ask enough questions. They don't check for understanding. They don't know how to ask questions or they say, does anyone have any questions? Which is like the worst. I, you know, I was taught when in speaking, right. In presenting to like, you raise your hand and say, what questions do you have as a way to like,
Rebecca Fleetwood (42:34)
You
Tom Hootman (42:43)
Everyone's answer is always, anyone have any questions? Nope. Right? But the secondary piece of that is we talk about burnout. You talked about people scheduling back to back to back to back. I was 30 minutes late to a one-on-one that I was holding today because I was in a fantastic interview with a wonderful candidate and I gave them a heads up that I was going to be late. then people are always going to say, I used say to my bosses, I'm like, no, that's cool. mean, no one's going to be like, yeah, I'm really offended you were late to their boss.
They just aren't wired that way because they're not, people aren't jerks, right? But like you have to understand the power dynamic as a leader of how you show up. And if you don't give yourself and the team member that conversation enough time to be able to stop and ask questions and you're running from conversation to conversation to conversation, you aren't, you're just spewing information all day long. And then you're frustrated two weeks later when why isn't anyone getting this? I said this very clearly. Well, maybe you said it.
pretty quickly in a 19 minute 30 minute meeting because you were 11 minutes late. Like that is a mirror. think a lot of leaders should look in.
Rebecca Fleetwood (43:45)
Well, and
if you cancel the one-on-ones, that's the place where you should have been having the clarifying conversations. Hey, I know we put this strategy and this announcement out. Now that you've had a little bit of time to think about it, what question, like, how's this going? What do you think? And especially your top performers, because what leaders often do is they'll cancel the one-on-one with the top performer because they're good, they don't need.
And those are the people that you want real, those are the people like I was for this person on the team that I was gonna tell this person, I was gonna tell my leader the truth. Like nobody's doing this. Like nobody believes it. Like, and if you cancel, if you cancel that one-on-one, you've missed the best feedback loop there is, which is your top performer.
Tom Hootman (44:20)
That's a shot.
so fucking guilty of that. Damn it. It's true. It's true, right? Like, hey, we're good. You're kicking ass. We don't need to talk. ⁓
Rebecca Fleetwood (44:28)
Said with love. Said with love. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. And then
that person doesn't want to talk either because they're a top performer. They've got other things to do that make them more money than talking to you. And so if you don't honor it, they're not going to ask for it. And now you've just cut off the main line to the success of your business.
Tom Hootman (44:55)
Do you think one-on-ones should be team member driven or leader driven?
Two Way Street.
Rebecca Fleetwood (45:01)
Yeah, it's contextual. Just like that example with my boss saying, we're doing this. That was a leader-led conversation. But there are times where you don't have that. And so then you're making sure that they feel safe to bring anything to you. So there needs to be both two-way communication.
Always.
Tom Hootman (45:19)
I
like a short one-on-one agenda that the team member fills out. That's very, it's like, it should be five minutes. It's stolen from Blind Zebra, a lot of it, our friend Brian, Stephanie Neal, how you doing in work and life on a scale of one to seven, but you can't say five. What's gone well, what roadblocks you're running into, where can I help? I think it helps me because I can take up if a 30 minute one-on-one, you need me to, can riff for 29 minutes if you need me to, but I like.
Rebecca Fleetwood (45:28)
Yeah. ⁓
Tom Hootman (45:45)
We try to get to theirs first. What are you, what's going on? How are you? Cause I want to hear what they're doing and I have to regiment that or else I'll just be like pounce, like all this stuff I'm excited about and here's what's going on over here. And what about this? How's this client doing? And if you don't stop and get out of that, you have to use their dime first, so to speak.
Rebecca Fleetwood (45:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
And some people are slow to feel safe to share. So sometimes if you come in with a topic that you know is going to get the conversation started, then they're more safe and free to bring their agenda. Everybody's different. Down to their fingerprints. On purpose, for a purpose. So if we try to treat everybody like we're the same, you're going to miss with somebody.
Tom Hootman (46:26)
Yeah, it's so I'm always fascinated by this. Like, what do you recommend? What's a book a podcast like? What's your go to that you love to recommend to people who that you just it's like you go to it every single just got something great for everybody that you recommend.
Rebecca Fleetwood (46:41)
One that comes up a lot is The Big Leap.
Gay, Hendrix, think. it's not that it's so like, it's a great book. It's not that it's like profound, but it's about limiting beliefs and what holds us back. And I find that that's a topic that comes up a fair amount for the people that I'm working with because I'm working with people that want to do more and they wouldn't be working with a coach if they didn't want.
more, didn't want to grow, didn't want to be better. And what usually gets in the way of us being better is our beliefs about ourselves.
Tom Hootman (47:14)
Thank you. And I will say this as someone who can be a bit of a cynic. I don't know if you've heard this. I can be a bit of a...
Rebecca Fleetwood (47:20)
Less so now that
you get your paychecks in a different place, but that's for another day.
Tom Hootman (47:24)
Exactly. Less of a cynic every day, right? Putting yourself out there and just getting uncomfortable and
being like naked to the world, like, what am going to say today? like, it's, it's, it's liberating. But there is, ⁓ I never in a million years thought I would be someone who had, had a coach. And I, I remember like you, you were, you were fantastic about kind of like breaking down so many barriers initially. And I remember that moment that it clicks where you're kind of like, kind of like you.
Rebecca Fleetwood (47:30)
Thank
Yeah.
Hmm.
Tom Hootman (47:51)
the brash salesperson when your manager sits you down, like those first times you let something breathe with me and I was like.
All right, I'll try it. And then I came back two weeks later and I was like, you know, you're right. You were right. That was really good advice. Almost like I was like a disdain. And so I appreciate that about you because you have patience. But I for the, for the, I've worked with you for a very long time. And what I always tell people about you is that I always need a coach who does that's bullshit. Stop. Honestly, I've so like, I mean,
Rebecca Fleetwood (47:58)
you
Yeah.
you
Tom Hootman (48:21)
I believe in good coaches and I believe in good therapists and I believe you should have that outlet to like work through what you're going through, what you're thinking and where you're at in life. same thing with, you need a therapist who like doesn't just listen. There's a good listening therapist, but like sometimes you need a therapist or a coach who says, aren't you done? My turn.
Rebecca Fleetwood (48:38)
I have two clients
who quit going to their therapist because I was filling that space.
Tom Hootman (48:41)
There's like this. There
is a Venn diagram there from experience. Rebecca, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for catching up. Where can people find you or learn more about your work?
Rebecca Fleetwood (48:53)
So I also have a podcast called Business is Human, so wherever you listen to your podcast. My website is rebeccafleetwoodhession.com and go there and look at the event that I'm hosting on March 12th called Stand Tall In Your Story. If you're in the Indianapolis area that timeframe, highly recommend it.
Tom Hootman (49:09)
I'll share all these links. Of course, we'll share them across when we post all the wonderful magic clips from this and the podcast out for. I love it. Let's just do it every week. I'll see you next Friday. Wonderful. Thanks, Rebecca.
Rebecca Fleetwood (49:15)
Yeah, let's just, let's do this all the time. This is fun.
Okay, sounds good.