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DO IT TODAY is a podcast hosted by Kara Cutruzzula, who asks friends and notable figures across creative industries about what they're doing that day—and how they're going to do it. It's an up close look at process and practice, a reminder for you to do your most meaningful work, and a mini dose of encouragement in 20 minutes or less.
Kara Cutruzzula: so hi everyone.
Today I'm talking with Dorie Clark,
who is a brilliant keynote speaker,
consultant, and author of four books.
Most recently, the Long Game, how to Be a
Long-Term Thinker in a Short-Term World.
She's been named one of the
top 50 business thinkers in the
World by Thinker's 50, and is a
frequent contributor to the Harvard
Business Review, and she also
counts being a musical theater
lyricist among her many talents.
So Dory, it's so great to talk
with you and catch up and clearly
by that list you do a lot.
But I'm curious what
today looks like for you.
Dorie Clark: Well, literally today what I,
what I've been doing today, which I know
is the focus of your, amazing book as.
Getting things done in the moment.
I usually sort of have a
slow roll in the mornings.
I would like to get immediately outta
bed and pounce, but usually I lie in bed
with my cats and read the New York Times.
But I did that.
I went out to get coffee,
which, uh, is, I guess positive.
You know, you're supposed to get sunlight
first thing in the morning, and so.
That's good.
But really what that reflects is that
my latte machine is, uh, is broken.
And, so anyway, they're
mailing it back to me soon.
Uh, so that ritual will, will soon
come to an end and I'll be back
working on my latte, art creations.
And then, uh, what I just came from, is
that I have started a, a routine which.
I was always a decent, albeit
haphazard, fitness person.
I'd maybe work out three times a week
and feel self-satisfied about that.
Uh, but now that I am, I would say
legitimately in the throes of middle aged,
I've decided I need to up, up the game.
And so I am, uh, doing a minimum of five
and sometimes six days a week in the gym.
So I just came back from a cardio session.
Kara Cutruzzula: Oh goodness.
So you were like amped up.
You were ready to, ready to roll.
So how do you know what you're
going to do at the gym every day?
Do you have a schedule?
Do you have a trainer?
What does that look like?
Dorie Clark: I do not have a trainer,
but there's an app that I have
been using lately called Strides.
it's a, a track, it's a paid like,
sort of tracker app, and it enables
you to create a list of positive
or or negative habits, you know,
positive habits that you wanna do, or
negative habits you want to es issue.
And, you track them.
And I, I, I feel like at least for
me, there's power in the ritual of
writing things down at sort of like
that, you know, Famous, uh, famous
scene in the, in the Jerry Seinfeld
documentary comedian, where he's like,
you know, just, just don't break the
streak of writing a joke every day.
And he, you know, he marks
an X on his calendar.
And so it's kind of the same for me.
I'm, I'm big on tracking things, so what
I try to do is cardio every day that I
work out as kind of a baseline, and then
almost every day when I can, there are
additional add-ons that I try to do.
Two days per week.
So usually some kind of add-on each day.
It would either involve,
uh, weight training or core
training, you know, planking or
crunches or something like that.
Or, what I call sort of physical
therapy exercises, which is, you
know, working out with resistance
bands to strengthen certain things
like, uh, my shoulders where I've
had some problems over the years.
Kara Cutruzzula: well, has this sort
of changed how you've been feeling, you
know, since you've started this routine?
Or have you noticed
any immediate benefits?
Dorie Clark: You know, I, I wish
I could say that I, you know,
am immediately a, a new person.
Um I know that,
that it is, is sort of beneficial
in the abstract for sure.
I don't know.
I've, I've been a, a vegetarian since
I was 13, and so sometimes people
will ask like, oh, you know, I've,
I've heard that, you know, when you
start eating vegetarian, you've, you
know, you feel so much different.
You feel so much better.
And I'm like, that may be true.
Uh, but I couldn't, I couldn't
tell you because it's, it's
been, it's been so long.
I guess I'm, I'm not the best
person to sort of be perceiving
immediate differences, but I do.
I do feel morally self-satisfied
and that's, I mean, there's really
something to be said for that.
Cara.
Kara Cutruzzula: Oh, the benefits of that.
Yeah.
You take that energy with
you for the rest of the day.
Like, well, I am a person who works
out first thing in the morning,
and then I get my coffee and then
I have a whole life, after that.
Dorie Clark: like a baller.
Um, so what, what do you do?
I mean, I know mostly you're like, uh,
you know, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sure
you've got plenty of other things.
I mean, what I see in your newsletter
is like you're having these amazing, uh,
soul satisfying walks in Central Park
looking at owls and things like that.
But like, tell me more.
Kara Cutruzzula: Yeah, that, that
definitely is an amazing sort of physical
activity slash like just getting it
away from the computer and remembering
there is Central Park out there.
I'm especially curious about your
new routine because I signed up.
Uh, in a lottery system to run the
New York City, half, which I've run
before, but many, many years ago.
And so I got in, of course, I was
chosen in the lottery, so now I'm
running a half marathon in a couple
of months, and I just haven't been
running consistently for a few years.
And so I need to build that
back into my day-to-day life.
And.
You know, there's always that idea of
do we have to sacrifice something or
clear space to incorporate a new routine.
But I think finding these pockets of
time, which maybe aren't used the best,
is a way that I'm going to do that.
It'll probably first thing in the
morning, you know, then you sort of get
the benefits for the rest of the day.
And that's why I think I will be using
the Dory clerk blueprint of get up,
get out, do it, and then feel morally
superior that I ran in the morning.
Dorie Clark: a thing that
I always think about.
I mean, I, I, I think many of us know this
intuitively, but one of the things that I
love about academia is that it gives you
fancy names for things you sort of know.
Um, but, but, you know, the fancy
name makes it, makes it more
memorable and I think makes it stick.
But anyway, I have a friend
named Stewart Friedman.
Who is a professor at Wharton
and he is sort of like this
work, work-life balance expert.
Uh, that's what he
focuses on and one of his.
ideas that he talks about is
something he calls the four way win.
what he means by that is that if you
think about the major life categories,
so you know, it could be work, it could
be family, it could be, you know, sort of
friends and other social relationships.
it can be health.
And I think somewhere in there maybe
friends and family are together
and then like sort of spirituality
or, you know, however one defines
that is, is maybe the fourth one.
but anyway, there's four of 'em and
his basic idea is okay, you know, we
all have obviously a finite amount
of time, and so the only rational
way that we can make more time
essentially is by combining activities
and trying to be strategic about.
Covering as many blocks as possible out
of those four blocks in one fell swoop.
So, I mean, you know, the, the sort
of trifecta or, you know, so to
speak, the quad becta is, uh, if
you can get the four way win, but
even if you get, can get multiple
ones, it's, it's enormously helpful.
So, I mean, if you're like, gosh, you
know, I've been so busy, I haven't been
able to spend enough time with Colin.
Well, okay, the answer is like,
recruit Colin for the runs, or, I
don't know, I'm, I'm making this up.
You really want to get more in touch
with spirituality and so, okay, great.
Every time you run, you're listening
to some sort of Buddhist meditation
on your, audio book or, or whatever.
And so, you can kind of make more time by
thinking about ways that you can leverage
the activity to accomplish multiple goals.
Kara Cutruzzula: What a brilliant idea.
I mean, I can already.
Think of three or four things I, it'd
be doing simultaneously as running
just to sort of take advantage of that
time because it is going to be hours
a week, you know, where you're out
there it would be really beneficial.
think instead of feeling like it's a
chore or feeling like it's homework
or like something I sort of like
lucked into, is definitely gonna
change my attitude towards it.
So I'm, I will gun for the
four-way win and, and, uh, keep you
posted if that actually happens.
That sounds like something
is strive for for sure.
So you already did your cardio.
You're doing a podcast now.
What does the rest of the
day look like for you?
Dorie Clark: You know, today is actually
a, really intense day, and I, I, I, I
try not to have days like this anymore.
This is a little bit of an aberration,
but I have a business trip that
I'm leaving on tomorrow, so a lot
of things had to be sandwiched in.
So immediately after this, I
have a client coaching call.
And then after that I have an
appointment, a Zoom appointment for
something called myofunctional therapy.
which is something I'm very bullish on.
I can expound.
Uh, but just for, uh, for, for
people's benefit, I was not
familiar with this either in my.
Continuing quest for self-improvement.
Myofunctional therapy is essentially
physical therapy for your mouth
and tongue so that you can learn
strategies to breathe better.
And this is particularly important if you
have sleep difficulties or sleep apnea.
A lot of times you're.
The problem is you're breathing
through your mouth and then your
tongue walls back and you choke
yourself, which is clearly not good.
but a big problem, the reason
that happens is your tongue isn't
strong enough, which is so weird.
You never think like, oh, I
have to strengthen my tongue.
But that's a thing.
And so myofunctional therapy trains
you, which is really brilliant.
Kara Cutruzzula: that's amazing.
Have you been doing that for, for a while?
Dorie Clark: yeah, I did it.
I started it last year
and it's actually amazing.
Nobody ever thinks about
this quite obviously.
I mean, it's, it's not like, oh, wow,
your tongue is so, you know, so limber.
It can, you know, like, like how, how
would you possibly evaluate whether your
tongue is, is working the way it should?
Like, you just have no idea.
But it turns out when you start
doing this, I mean, at least if
you're, if you're me, some of some
of the risk factors for having, a
sub optimal tongue functionality,
if you have asthma, which I do.
if you grew up and had allergies,
which I did, and if you, interestingly,
if you were fed from bottles rather
than breastfed, uh, which which I
was, you actually ha as a baby you
have to work harder to breastfeed
and it strengthens your tongue.
And that is actually, it turns
out, uh, beneficial for you.
So I'm now kind of having to,
to go back and, and do that.
But you see there's like these exercises
and they're like, oh, can you do this?
And I'm like, I would not even
know where to begin to do that.
but you know, now, now I'm learning.
I've got a stronger tongue and
it means you breathe better.
and that, that is a net positive.
Kara Cutruzzula: Well, I just
love this so much because they're.
There is a sort of coach or therapist
or self-improvement process for
virtually everything, right?
Like even if you didn't know
that it existed, it does exist.
Um, and, and you can find it.
And I think that that's, such a
wonderful, example of something
that I had no idea was possible.
Dorie Clark: Yes.
Yes.
It's, it is, it's so exciting.
So shout out to Dr.
Maria Sa for anyone who wants
to, uh, to learn how to do this.
She does these on Zoom so you
can, you know, you can take
lessons wherever you are.
but yeah, I mean, to this point, Kara,
you know, one of the ways that I was
able to get into the B M I, layman
Engel Musical Theater workshop, where
I met you was I didn't really know
anything about writing musical theater.
And so I sought out and hired a musical
theater coach, which was, you know, not,
Not initially the easiest thing to find
in the world, but I, but I sort of wended
my way through networking to find one,
and it proved to be enormously helpful
to me in creating an application that
would, that would let me get accepted.
So yeah, I am a huge fan of getting
coaching and training for things.
Kara Cutruzzula: I, I've
forgotten about that example.
Um, and it's such a, it's such a good
point well, I guess I, I was curious
to go back to like the day-to-day
process because you do write musical
theater and you do have all of your
other responsibilities and coaching
and, and writing and tasks, and I
was wondering how you incorporate
writing musical theater into a day.
Dorie Clark: Yeah, I mean, I,
it's, it's not, it's not something
certainly that I do every day.
It's I would say generally
for musical theater.
I like to build in forcing
functions for myself and then,
and then work around that.
So certainly when we were in the throes
of our, you know, initial two year program
for B M I, we would have assignments.
And so you had to regularly
prepare the assignments.
And so that was the forcing function now,
we're, we're sort of, you know, out of
the part of the program where you are
required to turn in assignments regularly.
My forcing function.
I think like you, cuz I know you
write about this often in your
newsletter, which I read and enjoy.
I apply with my composing partner to
different fellowships, different uh,
competitions and things like that.
And that creates, uh, a mechanism
where it's like, oh boy, we better,
we better get that new demo together.
We better get those tracks together.
We better rewrite that song.
And, uh, you know, fortunately we've been
able to, to get some traction this year.
our show Absolute Zero, uh, had a, a
staged reading in Dallas, which was
the result of winning a competition
from something called musical
writers.com and absolute zero just
placed second in a, competition.
That N m I, new Musicals Inc.
Out of Los Angeles held.
those are, those are examples
of things where we rewrote.
We did a bunch of revisions as
a result of specifically getting
materials together for an application.
Kara Cutruzzula: an application is
the ultimate forcing function, right?
Like if you end up getting it
or if you place, or whatever
it is that comes from it.
Always a win, always a benefit.
But I think that process
of actually applying.
you have that demo, you have that revised
artistic statement, I mean, approach,
I think to writing musical theater,
which you've written about before, is.
The long-term goal, right?
And you wrote an entire book
about the long game and why we
need to focus on long-term goals.
And there's really nothing that takes
longer than writing a a Broadway musical.
Dorie Clark: Ain't that the truth?
Kara Cutruzzula: we also, you know,
we get bogged down every day and
waking up and thinking like, well, how
can I keep my eyes on the long-term?
and what would you sort of say to that?
Like how can we keep our
eyes on that horizon?
Is it clearing space?
Is it breaking things down
into, into little task?
What, what is the Dorie Clark method?
Dorie Clark: Ultimately it is true,
you know, for myself, and I think
for lots of people that when you see
something on your to-do list, literal
or proverbial, and it is too large,
it gets paralyzing because you know,
you're, you're not consciously thinking
that, but, but basically your brain is
like, I don't know what to do with that.
Like, you know, like write a book, like
that's not a good item for a to-do list.
There's like, you know, 17,000 sub bullets
that should be in something like that.
So I think it is really breaking
it down to its smallest constituent
part and taking the next step.
I mean, it's pretty basic in its
application, but it occurs to me.
Kara, somebody who I think
would be great for your podcast.
Is a professor at Harvard Business
School named Teresa Amabile.
You may be familiar with her work.
She wrote a book called The Progress
Principle and and it is essentially
that The key factor in somebody's
feelings of satisfaction, feelings
of professional satisfaction about
their work is their ability to
make progress no matter how small.
And that's the interesting part progress
of, you know, whatever size every day.
On a project that feels meaningful to
them, that is the key, is just essentially
forward momentum, even in tiny ways.
And that is the secret to professional
happiness and fulfillment.
And, uh, I think that that's
a, a really interesting north
star for us to, to keep in mind.
Kara Cutruzzula: Yeah, absolutely I can.
definitely relate to that in my own life.
And I think it's an interesting time
to talk about this and I was just
wondering if you have any methods
for reflecting at the end of a day
or week do you sort of look back
and sort of say what, what really
went well and what went not so well?
Dorie Clark: Well, I definitely try
to build in those opportunities.
And in fact, the the other thing that
I'm doing today after my myofunctional
therapy is I am leading a session,
online and it, and it's extensive.
It's like a three hour online meeting for.
A mastermind that I run.
it is a paid year long program
that I do with clients and, I bring
folks together, you know, sort of
entrepreneurs who are successful and
looking to get even more successful.
And, uh, over the course of a year,
we meet both in person and virtually.
And so today is actually our
year end wrap up session where
we're gonna be doing just that.
Uh, everybody is gonna be talking about.
their wins for the year, their sort
of visions for next year and, and
also kind of what they learned, like
what meaning they are making from
the things that got accomplished
versus the things that didn't.
because, you know, it is, it is more
than, than just sort of chalking
things up, chalking up the tally.
It's about understanding
what lessons to take from it.
And that level of analysis, I
think is, is important to us.
Kara Cutruzzula: Oh boy.
I wanna, I wanna do that already.
Um, I think I'm gonna mark that
off on my calendar to do it myself
because I've, I've done it in the
past where you, you just do the bullet
points of kind of what happened.
Happened, maybe what didn't happen,
but I think that deeper look at how
that felt and why you approached those
things in the first place is just.
Going to be so beneficial So
I'm stealing all of that.
Dorie.
a call with you is just.
Instantly motivational and encouraging
and uh, it's got my brain thinking
in all sorts of different ways.
So thank you for taking the
time and you have a lot to do
today, so I'll let you get to it.
Dorie Clark: Kara, thank you so much.
It's always a joy talking to you.
It was, and you know, and especially,
you know, shout out to you is a joy
featuring you in my book, the Long Game.
I feel like you, uh, you are an
exemplification with your books and
with your newsletter of how to do it.
So thanks for having me on.
Kara Cutruzzula: Appreciate it.
Dorie Clark: right, my friend.
Take care.
Bye.