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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: How has your relationship with work have you drifted apart in recent years, and have you noticed that others seem a little less connected and committed to their job than they used to be? Well, you'd be right. Data is telling us that we are in an engagement crisis and in this episode of We Not Me, Juliet Hammond, business Analyst at Squadify is back to shared data on what's happening across the world to engagement, but also some good news. Some proven approaches that can help any team or organization to buck this rather unfortunate trend.
[00:00:30] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond
[00:00:41] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:42] Dan: and we're talking about engagement today, Pierre. Um, and this is on our mind a lot because we talked to so many teams and you just get this sort of vibe that things. Aren't all that well, but I know we, we, we've been talking a lot about it, haven't we Been digging out some, looking at the data and so on.
[00:01:00] It's, um, it's, it's a fascinating topic that, um, I'm really looking forward to getting into.
[00:01:05] Pia: Yeah, and it's um, I actually had one of my clients give me a academic paper that was written actually by my. My old professor, a guy called um, Tony Grant, who founded the Coaching Psychology unit at University of Sydney and um, and taught me for part of my master's and very sadly passed away, but he had.
[00:01:32] An amazing perspective on this and wrote some really great things. And I came across this quadrant, you know, there's nothing better than a two by two, but he was looking at engagement and performance. and the distinction in the, the top right and the, bottom right hand box was the difference between being flourishing with high engagement and high
[00:01:50] performance.
[00:01:51] And when you drop below the line Of that engagement to a certain level. it was called distressed, but functional. or functionally distressed. I don't know which one,
[00:02:02] Dan: Yes,
[00:02:02] Pia: around it is, but it, it, but I think it's a really important one because, you know, we can sometimes create a new norm for ourselves that, and accept that that is the way that it is and, um, and that we don't.
[00:02:16] Had the time or the circumstances or even the right, somehow to flourish. And, and, and I wholeheartedly don't agree with that because I think we do have, it's only by flourishing with that level of engagement and performance, giving people that. Opportunity to really lean in together to perform that, um, that you can achieve great results and really enjoy your work and thrive.
[00:02:43] and that's gonna be the topic of our conversation today,
[00:02:47] Dan: It is indeed. It is indeed. And uh, we have, uh, the, the person who is affectionately known as the lovely Mrs. Hammond, Juliet, um, is, uh, has some new data for us on this topic, both from, third party. So, um, sort of secondary search, but primary search from the Squadify data set. So, this is fascinating stuff, and there's a glimmer of hope here for our listener. So let's go and hear Juliet now.
[00:03:12] Pia: Oh, I love these. I love these podcasts. It's a very, very special one. Welcome back, Juliet.
[00:03:21] Juliet: Hello. Thank you so much for having me back again.
[00:03:24] Pia: so, so happy to have you back. It's always, we're gonna, you know, for any of those of you who are a bit nerdy about data, then oh, this is gonna be your show. Um,
[00:03:33] Juliet: Um,
[00:03:35] Pia: It's gonna be great. And Juliet, for full transparency is the other half of Dan Hammond, my, my cos show host. And um, but it was also our all important business analyst here at Squadify.
[00:03:49] So that's what we're gonna be talking about. Some data,
[00:03:52] Juliet: Fantastic. Let's get going
[00:03:54] Dan: Before we do that, I'm going to, I'm going to have the great pleasure of, um, of asking one of these conversation starter card questions.
[00:04:01] Pia: Is this, I'm not sure whether this is either weird or ethical.
[00:04:06] Dan: I think it, I think it depends on the question to be honest. So, um, but I have a card here, which I'm, well, I'm hoping I might get a mention on this one. Let's see, um, my perfect day. What is your perfect day?
[00:04:19] Juliet: well, I can certainly locate myself very easily, so my perfect day will definitely be in Italy.
[00:04:25] it would probably start, in a small village just outside Genoa, where I'll have a, a cappuccino and a slice of focaccia, which in Genoa is a nice, thin. Oily salty bread. It's not big and squishy. It doesn't have anything in it. It's just the, the genove are a, a straightforward people. Um, and then I think after that thus fueled, I will head in for a offer, a long run up in the hills, um, looking down over the coastline, enjoying the lovely sunniness.
[00:04:58] Obviously it'll be a sunny day. And then probably I'll drop back down to, to the village, have a Cremel cafe, which is a lovely little tiny coffee flavored slushie.
[00:05:09] Dan: You've got this really worked out, haven't
[00:05:11] Pia: she has, she has, she has. you? obviously spoil her.
[00:05:14] Juliet: just to be clear, we're head, I'm heading over there tomorrow and I have been
[00:05:18] Dan: missed Oh, I see.
[00:05:19] Pia: have, you, you've been creating
[00:05:21] Juliet: Creating your future. Yes, indeed. And I think probably an afternoon sitting under a. An umbrella reading a book, in the Sunshine before a plate of spaghetti, olive LivOn, gole for dinner.
[00:05:32] That would probably,
[00:05:34] Oh, a negroni would be very, yes. That would, that would certainly help things along.
[00:05:39] Pia: Sounds does sound perfect. I'm still slightly surprised that you can go for a run with a coffee in you to before you start. That's quite an
[00:05:47] unusual, I'm an empty stomach exerciser.
[00:05:50] Juliet: Well, it's interesting, isn't it?
[00:05:52] And I have, I've gone back and forth on this, and actually I heard some research recently that women of a certain age should not run on an empty stomach. Which is a kind of new one to me. So I'm, you know, taking the
[00:06:06] Pia: Being, under
[00:06:06] Juliet: being under 35.
[00:06:07] Pia: you feel that
[00:06:08] that would be, that?
[00:06:09] Dan: Yeah. That's the age. Yeah. No, I can't, I can't do that. I'm an empty stomach as well. I
[00:06:16] Juliet: I feel like it fuels me on the run.
[00:06:18] Dan: oh, it's
[00:06:19] very good. It's great. So, so, and Juliet says, that's a lovely day. I, I didn't, I noticed I didn't get a mention there, but that's
[00:06:26] Pia: no, no, no. I,
[00:06:28] was waiting.
[00:06:29] It seems somewhat
[00:06:30] Juliet: I expect I'd, my family for dinners go there.
[00:06:34] Dan: I, I'd need, well, thanks. Thanks a lot. Last minute you lumped in.
[00:06:38] Pia: the dog.
[00:06:39] Juliet: Well, she's on the run. She, I could, if I could magically bring her with me on
[00:06:43] the run. that would
[00:06:44] Dan: I, um, yeah, I'd even dropped a heavy hint at the beginning. It still didn't work. Anyway, moving on and, um, choking back the tears. But the, um, so git do not everyone has heard every episode of We, not Me, which is an error obviously, but they may not have heard you before.
[00:06:59] Give us a, give us a quick potted bio before we dive into this topic.
[00:07:03] Juliet: Yes, sure. I trained as an economist initially, and, uh, worked as an economist with Unilever, uh, and then moved for a brief spell into banking with, um, union Bank of Switzerland.
[00:07:14] And then, uh, moved into consulting after that. So we, uh, moved to the United States, and I worked for an American consulting firm called, Parthenon. Uh, and then, uh, when we moved to Australia, I took the opportunity when our kids were small to, to go back to university and study psychology.
[00:07:33] Um, and then the combination of, I don't know, economics analysis and psychology led me into leadership. And that's where I've worked for the last 10, 15 years. Um, primarily in a, in the, on the data side, always in an analytical role.
[00:07:47] Pia: I mean, it's perfect. So, um, again, if, if, if you didn't pick this one up listeners, we have two and a half million data points, um, in our database at Squadify and we need a brain as big as Juliet's to try and work out what all of that means.
[00:08:01] but today we're going to talk about the engagement gap and um, and quite specifically the gap. because we've got some data around that. But this is a really big top topic. Nearly every client that we work with completes an engagement or a culture survey annually or bi-annually. Um, and we really wanted to take a different lens on it and look at what the data's telling us its importance, um, and maybe how we might be seeing things a little bit different here at Squadify and, and what that data's telling us. Let's get everyone on the same page first. What is an engagement survey, so we all get that clear.
[00:08:46] Dan: What's engagement? Yeah. what's, let's
[00:08:48] Juliet: So engagement really, um, is a measure of how people feel towards their work. How, how. Positive and optimistic. They feel about, uh, working in, at the place they work and giving more than the basics.
[00:09:03] We've all heard about quiet, quitting. Um, and really engagement is a, is about the opposite of that, really connecting and feeling a, a sense of purpose and desire to, to work actively, um, in their job. And the latest research is really quite damning, um, Gallup, uh, in their state of the. Global Workplace Report in 2023, um, showed that employee engagement has stalled.
[00:09:28] Um, and overall employee wellbeing has declined after many, many years of growth actually. Um, and if we look at the US in particular, their recent polling in, uh, February 24 shows that engagement on average has dropped from 33% to 30%. So that's less than a third of employees are. Actually involved. And even more depressingly, if you look at the younger employees, people under 35, um, the stats suggest that 23% are engaged, 62% not engaged, and 15% actively disengaged.
[00:10:03] So there's an enormous number in the middle there of people who just aren't finding that work is giving them what they need.
[00:10:10] Pia: not on fire, are they? You know, because that actively disengaged is you, you, you're really looking for a way to either get yourself out or not be involved or undermine other people around you, but that bit in the middle that not engaged is, is quite a quite, almost, quite invisible.
[00:10:27] because You don't necessarily raise
[00:10:28] a flag until you carry out an engagement survey that you may be feeling that
[00:10:33] way.
[00:10:34] Dan: It's tied, sort of tied to presenteeism, isn't it? I'm gonna show up in body, but, um, but that, it seems that engagement is, is this sort of emotional attachment to work, isn't it? It's that sort of feeling that, uh, where, where you sit on that front, but it's, it's pretty sad. I mean, obviously workplaces have been not always
[00:10:51] been
[00:10:51] always fantastic for everyone, but these are pretty low numbers, aren't they?
[00:10:55] Juliet: They are, and, and historically no low. And I think the, the, with remote workers, they're another category where engagement has seen, been seen to be dropping. So I think there's even harder work to be done to, to continue that, to build that sort of emotional connection with people that you're not perhaps seeing every day as well.
[00:11:14] Pia: there's a big. Dollar number attached to low engagement as well. Tell us what that is. '
[00:11:20] Juliet: You are absolutely right, Pierre. Um, it's estimated $8.9 trillion is lost every year in global GDP due to low engagement. And, and actually Gallup looked at some, a whole load of metrics across all of the organizations that they scanned. So they categorized organizations as being high in, you know, in quartiles of engagement. And then they compared the top quartile. With the bottom quartile to see the difference in these stats.
[00:11:47] And it's quite staggering. 18% higher productivity for those high engagement organizations. 23% higher profitability, 81% lower absenteeism, and I think that's where you really see it. People not turning up for work. 43% lower staff turnover, 64% fewer safety incidents. So it really crosses a, you know, it cuts across all kinds of metrics of business performance.
[00:12:13] Pia: I think, I mean, this is quite an interesting time. The last five years have seen pre covid, covid and, and post covid. Um, and when Covid happened, the, the, the leadership style became acutely transactional and task orientated as people moved into a remote way of working.
[00:12:34] And, and it hasn't quite, sort of got back to where it might have been. even though we've, of course all moved on, the workplace has significantly shifted, That's, I think the whole experience around the pandemic and, uh, and the unsettledness, um, economic precarity, the the challenges that businesses have had constant restructures, reorganizations, you know, that's had a, that's had an effect on mental health.
[00:13:05] So we, I think we're slightly altered as human beings if We really look at this.
[00:13:10] properly and the work we live in and the content is slightly altered.
[00:13:15] and yet sometimes we become just sort of obsessed with achieving the task. So we don't take, don't pay attention
[00:13:21] Dan: I think that precarity point is interesting. I think as a society in the West, we are all struggling. We're not officially in recession, but I think we all feel like this is really hard. Companies budgets are really squeezed, you know, to, to be, to be honest though, company profits are doing really well.
[00:13:37] You look at the stock market. It's generally doing well. Some company profits like supermarkets in the UK have never been higher. And so the money is being squeezed out and away from us as employees and as customers. So it's, we get a double squeeze, I think. And um, and so in a way I would, I would, and then it relies on the leadership, the quality of leadership to try to bring people back upstream when they're being washed down, if you like, by these sort of negative forces. So, but as you say, Peter, it's a very, it's a new level of leadership that's required to maintain that connection that some, that people aren't really prepared for.
[00:14:17] Pia: And we, um, with Juliet, we in Squadify, we. We have questions around engagement. Do you do you wanna tell us a little bit about what they are and and what that's
[00:14:26] Juliet: that's telling us? Yes, absolutely. So Squadify captures ratings from team members about the conditions in their team, um, and we are able to group those questions in order to identify different dynamics.
[00:14:38] And one of those dynamics is engagement. Um, and just to give you an example of what's, what's included in that, these are questions around purpose, um, as well as. Personal connection, people's feelings about how they work with others, that their strengths are being used, um, appropriately, um, that they have autonomy to make decisions and that they can contribute in a positive and constructive way.
[00:15:01] So these are all, there's eight questions, uh, that we focus in on. and what we do is we capture, Team members ratings for both importance and presence. And the value really here is that what we can see is a kind of a, almost a wishlist of what, of what team members want and then their own ratings on what's actually there.
[00:15:21] Um, and so when we look at that, we can, we get a measure of engagement, of wished for engagement as well as the presence of engagement. And what we are finding is, is really quite stark. If we look at the last five years, what we've seen is that the, the desire for engagement has, has, has increased, in fact, never been higher.
[00:15:43] Um, and actually the presence of engagement has dropped, particularly in the last two years. We've seen a 40% increase in that gap. So the gap between what they want and what they need, is in increased and at the same time, the performance that those teams are, are rated, their own performance scores are dropping.
[00:16:02] So this increase in the engagement gap is alongside a drop in their perceived performance of their own teams.
[00:16:09] Dan: I think this is data that we don't see from other sources. Actually, Juliet, this, this importance thing because it would be easy to say, ah, this new generation of people, those younger people, under 30 fives, they just don't, you know, they don't wanna work. They, they just don't want to. It's a, you know, the whole engagement has.
[00:16:26] Sorry, the desire for engagement has changed. You know, you could easily say people don't want to commit to the workplace, they want blah, blah, blah. That what that data's saying is actually that's not the case. People are seeking it.
[00:16:37] but not receiving it.
[00:16:38] Juliet: Absolutely. And I, and it wouldn't be a, a long stretch to imagine that if you are disconnected from the office, you might want that even more to feel that connection, to feel that, um, emotional tie to the, to the workplace.
[00:16:52] Certainly our data suggests that that desire for engagement is rising, not
[00:16:56] falling.
[00:16:57] Pia: And I think we're capturing this data in a different way because, Typical engagement surveys are asking questions of the individual about their organization that may be aggregated at a team level.
[00:17:08] But what we are asking is about their team. So they're really thinking about the key unit that they're working in every single day, and we're looking at that level of engagement. And those scores that you gave was about the first time that they, that they do the Squadify, um, assessment.
[00:17:27] Juliet: Yes, absolutely. You are absolutely right. And I should have said that, that this, this gap that we're seeing is amongst first time users. So that's like the sort of population out there as it were. Um, and we're absolutely seeing that drop in engagement, but that increase in, in the ratings of importance for it.
[00:17:45] Dan: that these engagement surveys that are being done are actually not helping in this case. It's sort of, and we see this, that that seems to be something that is done for. Done by, and for senior leadership, it's almost like a, an opinion poll on the organization, but it doesn't lead to an ownership or, and a sense of sort of agency around, around what people can do, can, can, the actions that people can take to solve it.
[00:18:12] It's, it's almost like telling someone else there's a problem, but not being able to really, um, hold it and act on it.
[00:18:18] Juliet: Yes. And I think there's a lot of of research now suggesting that, you know, if you think about self-determination theory or many, you know, many of these other theories, people really, when people are empowered to make change, um, that's a huge driver of engagement.
[00:18:32] And actually when you. When you have a engagement survey where the results are reported and someone else is responsible for the solution, that takes the, the accountability away from the team. And, and what we see with Squadify is that you bring that accountability right back to the team. You're saying, what's going wrong in our team?
[00:18:51] How do we as a team resolve it? And it brings the solution closer to the problem. Whereas I think engagement surveys can take the solution further away from the problem.
[00:19:00] Pia: And I think who, who's driving engagement surveys? So, you know, in many organizations, publicly lifted organizations, um, an engagement survey is a mandate from the board. And sometimes senior execs remuneration is tied to those results. So that that adds a very different flavor. they're complex results and they're cut in lots of different ways. Um, there has to be. A discussion of the results, but getting the crisp, clear actions that are trackable becomes much more difficult.
[00:19:36] And so there tends to be a big flurry of activity about a month before we do the next. engagement survey. and I'm being a little bit cheeky there, but that, you know, that's so, so are we, are we creating these engagement surveys as a way of doing. An assessment to make ourselves feel good as an organization and to feel reassured. And how are we using them to
[00:20:00] Drive.
[00:20:00] people's mental mental wellbeing and also to support sustainable performance. yeah, I think, I think they maybe don't get enough attention during. a Long part of the year and a lot of attention, in a smaller part of the
[00:20:13] year.
[00:20:14] Dan: And, and, and I think a big emphasis of them is actually, ironically, to identify hotspots of potential pe of people leaving. So it's trying to look for where that engagement is low and therefore where people will leave. But what, um, I have not seen is actually beyond the sort of. Let's try and sort of solve that hotspot, actually a, a more systemic, a, a more structured way actually, of avoiding the, um, the problem in the first place.
[00:20:47] Um, which is, which is this, you know, people say you don't leave an organization. You leave your manager. Um, and that, that again, talks to this team, team structures those, that little group of people around you, um, that is so crucial.
[00:21:01] So Juliet, what are we seeing that, is there a, is there a positive side here? What are we, you, we just talked about those sort of first time Squadify users who come in, they're the sort of fresh, they, they're just in and, but what happens to those people over time?
[00:21:14] Juliet: Well, there is good news. so we, we then looked at the, the teams who've been using Squadify consistently over one to two years. And it is really, um, dramatically different. So what we found is that despite this backdrop of falling engagement and falling performance ratings. Out there in the world, Squadify users report both engagement and performance up by almost 10%. So we're looking at, um, an increase of around 8% for engagement, 8% for performance.
[00:21:44] And it's almost as if, you know, you know, we can't, we can't claim causation. But what we can say is that we've got both of those things improving, engagement, improving, and self-reported. Performance improvement. And those are, those are also self-fulfilling, right? The more positive you feel, the better your performance that, you know, they become an upward spiral.
[00:22:06] Dan: And, and just to be clear for our listener, um, what's happened to those people over those months and years is that they've, um, answered those questions. They then had a conversation about it as a team, they've taken one or two specific actions, Every quarter, let's say something like two to three months and then done the same thing again.
[00:22:27] So they're constantly iterating on these things that are gonna bring that engagement and that performance up.
[00:22:32] Pia: And that's a really interesting bit about bringing the time to a smaller, so you know, you talked about self-determination theory, that ability to have more connectedness, autonomy. That ability to really, you know, build your capability. If that happens by clear actions and you bring things, chunk it down to two to three months, you've got much greater chance of achieving those goals and within the unit. And of course you can see that's, that's connected. So if you've got multiple teams all doing the same, you're gonna get a huge enterprise or organizational lift, but it's coming from the ground up. not From the top down.
[00:23:16] Juliet: Exactly. And so it's fitting exactly what the people in each of those teams needs. And one of the particularly interesting things is if we go down to a question level, the biggest increase we saw was in making the best of squad strengths, which rose by 12% in these teams, and that's really tapping into that, um, self-determination theory.
[00:23:36] You know, if you think about mastery as one of those three key elements of it, if people really feel like they're being valued for who they are and what they bring, then that enables them to work better and more efficiently. With others. Um, the next one, the next biggest increase was in belief in what they're doing.
[00:23:54] 11% increase in that sense of purpose. So when we look, when we dig a little deeper, we can see the, the ways that these teams are able to make transformation, which it's hard to imagine doing at an organizational level. You know, we've seen strengths in action and it, it came in and it's kind of went because at an organizational level it's quite.
[00:24:16] It's easy to label strengths, but perhaps not so easy to action them. But at a team level, you really can, you can really have a conversation about, okay, this team of eight, or SE seven of us, or however many there are, how are we going to make the best of everyone's contribution here? And really del, in order to deliver against our goals.
[00:24:36] And we're seeing that really coming through in our data.
[00:24:39] Dan: And I think what some of those foundational questions in there about inclusion, that we, that we look at, I think that that's almost, isn't it sort of key step in feeling engaged? Are you actually part of this thing? And it can, it's very, it's sometimes easy to get detached from organizations, but you definitely feel part of that small unit that has that clear sense of purpose and so on. So I, I, it's, it sort of makes common sense, but the data is saying that that's, um, that, that's, that's really working.
[00:25:07] Juliet: Yes, at a question level, um, inclusion has also increased 11% in these teams. So again, when you bring it down to the team level and really engage the team in these conversations, it's very hard not to imagine that people are gonna become more in, feel more included, because you are working at a scale where you can really have an impact,
[00:25:29] Pia: I think too that having these questions and then having the answers very clear in the debrief with the team, and then the illustration of people's experience, it becomes much clearer what good looks like. So you're moving le, you're moving away from maybe once, not working over a period of time, and you're really going from good to great. You know, we see that a lot. Inside organizations. And, and the other comment I wanted to make was, we're not knocking engagement surveys here. They are different. but engagement is stalled, but engagement surveys serve, a, serve a, a worthy cause.
[00:26:07] And in actual fact, we are often engaged by clients to align Squadify and their engagement survey at the same time. So, I think that's, that, that's a, that's a, that's a key element, but I think they are very different. And what we're seeing is that level of motivation and engagement to really lean in, contribute to the key unit that you are working
[00:26:31] with every
[00:26:31] day,
[00:26:32] Dan: Absolutely. And I think on the, along the same lines, this all sounds a little bit sort of salesy, uh, potentially, but, um, I think the key, the point of this is not about, um, this is using Squadify data to learn something. And what we've, what we're learning is that actually a focus on these teams, these small work units, EE even if you do that, by taking your engagements over your results and say, right, how, what are we gonna do about this?
[00:26:56] You know, that can, that can be a move, but at least seeing that focus as these small teams are going to make the real difference, and that's where engagement, really can be born and can thrive.
[00:27:05] Pia: I was gonna ask you, Dan, so what have you seen as examples of teams that have become really engaged? Where are you seeing them go from that dorm as that distressed functional place to that, to that flourishing?
[00:27:20] Dan: well, I, I think the basic, the simplest answer to that is that we see teams coming to us and they are lots of individuals in a group for a start, very much living in their own world, doing their best, working incredibly hard, But they are lacking two key things. One is that it, the, the, the com cohering as a team gives them, once they start to say, okay, these people around me, one is I can work with these people to do more, but I also feel a greater sense of connection to these people.
[00:27:52] I actually, uh, you know, this is where I, this is a sort of a, a home for me. So I think on those two dimensions, really, we see that people suddenly start say, oh, great, I, I actually feel that human need. To be a pack animal, to be around others, to be supported, to feel a sense of belonging that is boosted, but also I can now work with those people to get more done than I was doing on my own.
[00:28:15] So those two things happen. Or you can almost see it physically when you're working with a team. That's what I've seen.
[00:28:21] Pia: And I, I've seen it post restructure when teams have, have had a really tough time that sort of PTSD, that post transformation stress disorder. and um, and I've also seen it with the effects of teams that actually have to cover a big geography. and. Actually the engagement is sort of couched more as loneliness because they're operating so separately.
[00:28:45] And sometimes with big geographic divides, very little time crossover.
[00:28:50] I think that's, I think that the whole nature of being able to bring people together as a unit to make a difference with the data that they have been honest about, Really gives them an opportunity to lean in, which is, I think, a deep human element in us, but it just becomes quantifiable.
[00:29:10] Dan: Um, Juliet, you said there the highest, one of the highest sort of rising numbers was around belief? It was, it was really interesting. Um, I was talking to a group of people in tech yesterday about teams and um, Pia, you and I have talked about purpose at an organizational level. We've helped organizations to, to sort of create that, that it can be quite a lofty emotional, quite an amazing thing.
[00:29:35] But there's another sense of purpose at this team level, which is why do we exist? Why are we a team? And it's in, its really linked a bit more practically to actually what we do and the difference we make to our stakeholders. Um, as I think Peter Hawkins was saying, uh.
[00:29:50] I think that's a really practical thing as well, that you, you might engage emotionally with that organizational, um, purpose, but why are we together and what can we do? It? It doesn't surprise me that that rises, um, quite significantly because that, that, and that gives a, a sort of a different sense of purpose, but a really powerful one I think.
[00:30:10] Pia: and that relates to a point I think we have actually discussed many times on we not me, it is the power and importance of clarity. While engagement is an outcome. it's what goes before it. And yes, you'd like, you can do activities, but often it comes down to the basics. What are we here to do? Why are we here together, and how are we gonna work together? And and we actually straighten that out early on and have a conversation about how best to utilize ourselves.
[00:30:41] We'll feel a bit, we'll discover the humor. We'll discover the camaraderie. We'll discover, you know, the, the, the. A bit more joy of working together and and that sort of equals engagement.
[00:30:53] Juliet: And actually it's, it's funny that you mentioned that because one of the things that I've seen as well with these teams where the engagement is rising is that they then. Also have increasing scores of, their perception of the resources available. And you think, you know, we legendarily, you know, the, the question around resources is always the lowest scoring in Squadify, nobody feels they have enough resources to work together. But actually when you are feeling like you are part of a group and that you actually are looking after each other and you have a reason for being, and you understand how to work together better and you feel positive and engaged about being there.
[00:31:29] It seems like your whole perception of everything changes and, you know, you have more of a can-do attitude and you look at what you've got to do and you think about what are the best ways forward. Um, if you're using your strengths, if you're believe, you know, really following your, your purpose, you, you're gonna see the clear paths that are going to enable you to make the best of what you've got, whatever that is.
[00:31:50] So it, it. It, there's a great deal of hope in, in and around, around engagement. I think that's, that's very positive and can, you know, help to engage others around you. It can be quite, you know, it, it can have far reaching effects amongst the people you work with.
[00:32:07] Dan: so Juliet, we're just down to the two boiler paint questions we ask everyone. The first one is a sort of next step thing, which is, um, in your case, if someone wants to get hold of this data that you've put together, what should they do?
[00:32:19] Juliet: Well,, I'd be very happy to share. So, uh, any, if anybody has questions, wants to get hold of this data, just send me an email at the squad@Squadify.net. Um, I'd be happy to share and get into a conversation about, uh, engagement and how we can help to fix it.
[00:32:35] Dan: Amazing. Amazing. So any data geeks out there get stuck in. And um, finally, Juliet, what about a media recommendation? We call it a book, podcast, blog. Anything else that you'd, uh, point people in the direction of that's inspired or interested you recently?
[00:32:50] Juliet: So I think we've probably talked, or you've probably talked already on the podcast about Pivot the, the podcast with Kara Swisher. Um, but I, I read, which is great, uh, and I read her book earlier this year, which is called Burn Book. And we're currently just getting into ai. We've been doing a lot of work, um, developing an ai, um, coach for Squadify, and we're getting into some exciting areas. And this book really is about those tech leaders who set out to make a huge difference with great intentions, um, and how sometimes those intentions have.
[00:33:24] Gone a little bit wrong. So it's a very entertaining book about the origins of tech and the drivers behind these people developing it and, and where they're going with it. And I'm still a very strong believer that AI is net good. I think there are huge advantages for ai and I think we need to be aware of the potential risks and, and take steps to, to protect ourselves from them. But I think overall AI is exciting despite some of the crazy characters who are leading the industry right now.
[00:33:54] Pia: Well, thank you Juliet, and I think this been such a valuable conversation and it's great to, to look at it in a way that is practical. And take the data that we've got. I, you know, we, we, we do have an engagement crisis looming on the, on the horizon. and I think part of the challenge is actually naming it actually going, Hey guys, I think there could be a bit of a problem here.
[00:34:17] And I think that what your data is suggesting is that there is a gap, but there are real practical ways that we can work together as an industry to really support. people in their workplace. um, And to give them a, give them the opportunity to thrive and flourish in their workplace, which is a basic human need, really.
[00:34:38] Juliet: Indeed. I think it's a very hopeful message. A, a lot of the news has been around engagement dropping, and people throwing their hands up. I think what we've got here is a real positive message about how we can help to solve that problem.
[00:34:52] Dan: Thank you being on the show, Juliet, with lots of yummy data. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:34:57] Juliet: happy to share the nerdy data.
[00:35:01] Pia: The engagement survey market is huge and um, is currently, I think in 2024, a billion dollar market. So there's a heck of a lot of engagement surveys that are out there, and it's grown significantly, particularly in the last 15 years, and there is a potential danger of having a bias and a group think to think that because you have an engagement survey, by the very nature being a survey measures the current situation that you are not being proactive about actually creating the optimal conditions for people to be engaged.
[00:35:48] And I think that's the distinction that lies here, I think. I think that we trying. It's like a soother, a pacifier. We've got the engagement survey and that's making us feel, okay, but is it, is it actually it stalled and is there something missing?
[00:36:07] Dan: the, they're sort of, they, they've come a long way. I know since I was in the corporate world, they've come a long way and they've developed a lot and now AI analytics and so on. Um, but the Diagnos diagnosis is not the same as the treatment. You know, there's a, it's a very good diagnostic for the organization, but it's, it's something that.
[00:36:28] Doesn't necessarily have a sort of treatment, a sort of solution within it. And, and, and I think if we, we mentioned self-determination theory there, and if we look at the components of that, which are, you know, which are, these are the drive, these are the well proven drivers of in, of, of motivation, autonomy, relatedness, and competence.
[00:36:48] I think that's. It's really important. If you think about, um, just using engagement surveys, you are sort of lacking that, um, sense of autonomy because people don't, you're sending actions up the pipe. The relatedness is, yeah, it's with the organization, but not with this little unit that you work with. And competency, it's sort of not relevant really because you're just, you are, you're not being asked to build your skills. Whereas actually at the team level, all of those things are served so. Probably, I think our, our recommendation would be to combine these two, get some data yet on the organization, no problem, but actually have something else that you do, um, in through the teams to, um, to really harness that motivation through those, those three elements.
[00:37:33] And then you've got yourself a. You've got yourself a winner and also do it more frequently. I mean, I think that's the other piece is that, that those large studies, I think a lot of the engagement surveys now are sort of more, can be more pulse driven, smaller chunk down pieces, which is essential because at an annual level things change so much.
[00:37:51] Even when we see teams every two months, whew. Things are whistling along for them and uh, we see different situation every time, don't we?
[00:38:00] Pia: Yep. It's like dog use. One week equals seven.
[00:38:03] Dan: That's exactly, it really is that, and I mean, when I, when I think back to my days at, let's say Novartis, I used to do all those annual planning sessions. Even this was around, around the year 2000. Even then, you know, the objectives after a year were just. Largely meaningless, but, but now they certainly are, things are just moving so swiftly, um, that, uh, the, the, the sort of, the pace of checking in on people and taking action has to be up there with the pace of the work, not, uh, not sort of lagging along at sort of old fashioned levels.
[00:38:37] Um, but that is it for this episode. We Not Me is supported by Squadify. Squadify is the complete system to help your teams to connect and perform. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We, not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:38:59] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.