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From natural disasters like hurricanes and earthquakes to pandemics, cyberattacks, and labor strikes, companies have to navigate so many complexities to get goods where they need to go.
What's their secret weapon to operating within the unknown?
It’s the people.
Welcome to Supply Chain Champions, the show that showcases the stories of those who keep supply chains running smoothly. We're here to highlight their untold stories and share lessons they’ve learned along the way.
Join us as we peel back the curtain on the people who make supply chains work and enhance your own career in the process.
Tune in. Get smart. Move forward.
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:00:00] :
You know, one of the things I had somebody tell me is like, you'll never be able to make a podcast about global shipping go because there's nothing happening in it.
It's just, there's going to be no new news in it. And I got to say for 3 years, I've had many problems. One of the problems hasn't been the lack of news.
Eric Fullerton [00:00:26] :
Welcome to Supply Chain Champions, the show brought to you by project44, where we're talking to the people who make supply chains work.
Hello and welcome to Supply Chain Champions hosted by project44. I'm your host, Eric Fullerton, and I have the distinct pleasure to be joined by our guest today, Sal Mercogliano. Now, Sal is a former merchant mariner. He has degrees in military and naval history, maritime history, nautical archaeology, marine transportation, and He's currently the Professor and Chair of History, Criminal Justice, and Politics that department at Campbell University.
But that's not all. Sal also runs one of the most popular supply chain podcasts and YouTube channels in the industry called What's Going on With Shipping. So Sal, of course, thank you for being here, but I want to start with a question. Why did you decide to start a maritime supply chain podcast?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:01:22] :
Eric, thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here with you as you start this off. Uh, I can tell you that I did not intend to start a maritime industry, uh, podcast or a YouTube channel. I kind of fell backwards into it. you know, you gave my background. I had been writing policy papers and news stories for a online website called gCaptain.
And gCaptain covers the maritime sector. And, I've been teaching a course at the U. S. Merchant Marine Academy since 2008 in Maritime Industry Policy, so I got to interact with a lot of people who are out in the industry. And then 2021 happened, and if you don't remember 2021, March 23rd of 2021, the Ever Given went sideways in the Suez.
And I got asked by the CEO of gCaptain if I'd be willing to go on BBC and give a talk about shipping. And I did. And that turned into a whole series of talks on a whole variety of different news sites. And eventually after doing, you know, a little one, two, three minute hits, I decided, well, let me do a, you know, a little bit longer, deeper view on this.
So I posted it on a YouTube channel. I had started just for my own videos. And it started off as what's going on in the Suez. But after Ever Given got unstuck in the Suez, one of my viewers said, Hey, there's other shipping out there. And so I just started, you know, just commenting on shipping, giving my background, kind of giving a little bit of context and history to it.
And so I went from 136 subscribers back in March of 2021. And I think I'm about 325, 000 right now.
Eric Fullerton [00:02:54] :
It's a great story, and I think it's, it's quite common for when we are talking to, you know, supply chain professionals or supply chain champions, in many instances, right? It's not this intentional thing of this is what I wanted to do, but it just kind of happens. I think about why back when, when you and I first met or first introduced and, you know, the Red Sea crisis is in.
Full force. And at p44, right, we produce these data insights reports on like the movement of goods and vessel flow and all this stuff using our platform. We're working on this blog series and I'm trying to plan this webinar. And I get an email from my CEO. He says, you need to talk to this guy. So it was pretty funny that's kind of how we became introduced, but you know, you'd already really seen some growth at that time and you just mentioned, right, about 325,000 subscribers, you've got a lot of these videos on YouTube. I think we're in like hundreds of videos. you know, I think many of them have over a million views. I actually checked your total, uh, which was about over, 61 million views on your channel. So my question is.
You know, what was that moment or when was the moment when you realized like, Whoa, like I might be onto something here.
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:04:08] :
I found a niche and, and, you know, I think that's one of the key things is, you know, I had friends who were doing maritime history podcasts and they were really good at them. But, you know, I was talking about the issue with the Ever Given and I really just started to explain that situation.
But I think the thing for me was when in September of 2021, when we started seeing the ships piling in off of LA and Long Beach, and just providing context for what is that, first of all, what are the ships, what are they doing, where are they coming from, just providing context. And what was really interesting to me were the viewers.
I mean, I had viewers who were in the industry, executives, I've gotten notes from them, And then I get people out in the middle of nowhere, United States, who's like, wow, this is really interesting. I didn't think it would be interesting to me.
And you know, every time I hit a goal or, achievement, it amazes me. I mean, my son was my 10, 000 subscriber. I thought that was the end of the world. That was going to be the pinnacle of everything. And then it just kept kind of. And, you know, one of the things I had somebody tell me is like, you'll never be able to make a podcast about global shipping go because there's nothing happening in it.
It's just, there's going to be no new news in it. And I got to say for 3 years, I've had many problems. One of the problems hasn't been the lack of news. It's been literally just trying to put As many stories out, I mean, there are days like I can do eight stories today. If I wanted to, I just don't know where to talk about.
Eric Fullerton [00:05:25] :
Yeah, absolutely. one thing that you kind of uniquely provide that you don't always get from, you know, the, these little quick interviews on, different media channels or whatever it might be, it's like, there's a lot of depth and detail that, that you go into and, It's interesting because even at p44 where I work, of course, if the office is like, get multiple pings.
It's like, Hey, did you see Sal's post today? Or did you check out this video? So I don't know how you feel about it, but you're a little bit supply chain famous, which, uh, I don't know what you were planning on, but, but it's certainly happening.
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:05:59]:
It's funny, you know, cause cause I'll touch on topics I did a video on why is it the ultra large container ships, the biggest container ships in the world don't come to the United States. it was actually kind of a slow news day.
I was like, I'll do this. I've been wanting to do this. And I, I just explained, well, it's the size of the vessel. There are crane issues. There's port logistics issues. And they're really, designed to operate between Europe and Asia, and they're, they're kind of like the express lane vessels going there.
And I posted that video and lo and behold, that video became like one of my most popular ever over a million views. it was 15 minutes of me just talking about something that I think is very kind of basic in why shipping goes, but then I began to understand there's a lot of people in the industry who shipping they're involved with, but they don't know much about it.
And the other thing is, you know, you know, as well as I do, Eric, there are a lot of industries where people are great at talking among themselves. But not talking to people outside of it. And you know, one of the things I've, I had the utility of being is a college professor. I try to make things, approachable and reachable to my students.
And I don't ever dumb anything down, but what I try to do is make it so that they can understand it. I think that's something that's useful for me. I've also spent some time, believe it or not, being like a sports broadcaster, doing some, college level sports at my university. And it kind of gets me very comfortable to be on camera and to be, you know, short and concise.
Don't be the professor. Don't. Repeat everything 50 times, you know, get something in, in a nice soundbite and be able to process it.
Eric Fullerton [00:07:20]:
It's a good segue. Cause I also want to do a little, a little bit of a rewind, talk a little bit about your journey. And. You know, you were a merchant mariner, you have this career in academia, and obviously now, you know, we, we've already talked about kind of what your, a lot of your energy is dedicated towards, but can you talk to me about, that journey from merchant to, you know, I'm going to be in academia. I'm going to be a professor. Like what, what was that like
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:07:44]:
My entire career is falling backwards in the things. I just, I never quite went forward the way I thought, you know, my, my goal was to be in the Navy. I wanted to be a Naval officer. That was kind of, you know, day one, you know, grew up with that kind of idea of being in the Navy.
And then I got disappointed in that the Navy sat there and told me, well, because of your eyesight, you'll never be able to drive a ship. And I grew up in, in southern shore of Long Island. My dad owned a business. and had a boat. We'd go offshore fishing. I'd see the ships coming in out of New York.
I was like, man, that's maybe I'll do that. so I went to the New York State Maritime College. I got my degree, wind up of all things working for the Navy, driving boats for the Navy. I couldn't, you know, Navy said I couldn't, but then I wound up doing it for them.
Sailed for a while. Loved the job. It was great. I love being out at sea. It was fantastic. But, one of the problems with it is that it's a tough life because you can't really have much of a family life. I got married and it was like we decided to have a family. So I came ashore. I worked the shore side aspect.
So I know the, you know, the experience from being on the ship, being in the docks, being in the terminals. And then I also know it from the business side ashore and seeing that aspect. But then I was working for the government doing their leasing of vessels and I decided, well, I don't want to stay with the government this long.
And I was always interested in the history side of, of where, where that industry I was in got to. And I couldn't find a book on it. It's like, well, I'll do that. I'll write the book on it. And what do you got to do to write a history book? You got to be a historian. And I figured, all right, I'll go do that.
And, you know, I found a program that had not just maritime history, but nautical archaeology, so get to jump in the water and dive on wrecks, which is exciting for me. I like that kind of stuff. And then, you know, did that for a while and then went to Alabama, which doesn't sound like a place for maritime history, but they have a great program there and a great professor I joined.
And then came and jumped around a batch of schools. I'm one of those guys who, you know, kind of like a beginning supply chain, you're gonna jump around to a lot of businesses. I jumped around to a lot of schools, got a lot of experience in how to teach and how to communicate. And really, you know, wound up here at Campbell University about 15 years ago now, longest job I've ever had,
And you know, one of the nice things about where I'm at is I can run a YouTube channel on supply chain and shipping and the university has nothing to do with it. They just love the attention that I bring. Cause you know, I sit here with a banner in my background and they love it when I go on CNN or Fox or any of the news stories to talk about it.
So it was a long route, but One of the things I think is really important is I kept kind of, you know, what's next, what's the next thing over the horizon, you know, I would get comfortable for a few years. It's like, okay, time for something new. And this is the new thing right now. And it's, it's really been for the past three years, an amazing, path brings me to people like you, Eric.
Eric Fullerton [00:10:25]:
For better or for worse though? let's stick on the history side of things because, you know, I do want to get your, historical opinion. You know, I think we've seen a lot of evolution. past 3 years, past 5, past 10 around, like, maritime logistics, shipping holistically, and now we're seeing these, you know, These massive black swan type of activities or events from Ever Given to COVID to Red Sea to Panama Canal.
Can you talk about the evolution there from a historical perspective? Like is something going on that we're not seeing or understanding or how are things changing or evolving? why are all these things?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:11:04]:
You know, one of the things I get to teach is a course in business and trade, and I teach another course in maritime history. So we look at the evolution of shipping over time, and you can see events that disrupt global shipping. I mean, shipping has been around forever. I mean, you can go back to the Mesopotamians and talk about this.
And one of the trademarks of civilization has been trade, is connectivity. you know, in ancient Pompeii, Buried by volcanic ash, they dig up and they find Chinese coins. So that gives you an idea that globalization has been around for a long friggin time, and we've been doing it for a long time. And one of the things that I think we see more today than ever before is because of the volume and velocity we do trade now.
We move goods at such a faster pace and such a massive volume. Give you an idea. the end of World War II, we're moving about a half a billion tons of cargo and now what you're seeing is We're moving 12 billion tons of cargo. So a 22 fold increase, almost.
It's massive. it's crazy to think about the amount of cargo that we move and the speed in which we move it. And that has to do with a revolution in the way we ship goods. Containerization. Malcolm McLean, 1956, just a few miles from where I am in North Carolina, Maxton, North Carolina. Malcolm McLean comes up with the idea of the intermodal container.
It revolutionizes the world. You can move things in a way that we never moved before. And what you create then is this global network that, you know, you all do at project44. When you put the map up and you can see where shipments are, you can see them moving. The problem with that is, the more, faster and the more volume you move, The more susceptible it is to disruptions, you can throw that chain off a lot quicker, so that when you have the Houthi stage attacks in the Red Sea, now all of a sudden you're sending ships around Africa.
Well, that's happened in the past. We saw that happen back in 1956. But when you look at trade in 1956 versus trade in 2024, it's substantially different in terms of the volume and how fast it's moving. And that's why I think these Black Swan events are really important to keep an eye on for. You can't predict them.
But you have to have the ability to kind of be able to circumvent them and minimize them as much as you can. Panama Canal, you know, here we build this new lane of the Panama Canal. It's going to steal traffic from the west coast of the United States, come to the east and gulf coast, but then you have a low water event that all of a sudden precludes it.
So we keep challenging ourselves to kind of come up with these events. you know, it's like anything, the more complex it gets, the more intricate it gets, the more easy it is sometimes to break it. You know, when things are nice and simple, it works really good. You can see where the problems are going to be and you can kind of prevent them.
Now you have to look at so many issues on so many different fronts that it can come at you from different ways. And it's one of the reasons, I would argue, that you really need to be prepared to have multiple plans in place. You know, if you're, a shipper and you're banking on everything coming in through one port, you're guaranteeing failure at some point.
It's only going to take one thing to throw you off.
Eric Fullerton [00:14:05]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, as you know, like at p44, we, we talk about high velocity supply chains, which is, you know, a simple way to think about it,is like, I want to manage and operate my supply chain. I want to do so with confidence and speed. I want to do something that sounds simple, but it's really complex.
I want to get inventory. Where it needs to go more efficiently, more quickly, more cost effectively. Now, we talk about doing that with technology, but you know, you can really provide some interesting context on doing that with like, with expertise, right? So whether we're talking Red Sea or Panama or port strikes, like what are some of the ways that you can do that from an expertise standpoint?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:14:46]:
Well, I mean, I think one of the things is, you know, we love to talk about black swan events, but if you look at the port strike that just recently happened, that's a white swan event. We saw that coming. That was pretty clear that that was an event that should have been a factor in, you know, and a lot of people Planners went into that to either, front load your freight coming in, move it ahead, maybe diversify where it's coming in.
I'm not gonna put everything onto the Eastern Gulf coast. I'm gonna put some onto the West Coast. You know, those are the type of things that you really need to be looking for and you know. Ocean shipping is that. It's a very complex issue. One of the things that I think I find out is, you know, when I have people tell me, it's like, wow, you really know this stuff.
I feel like I don't because it's such a complex subject, but I'm looking at so many different variables. You're looking at the shipping firms. What's going on with the shipping firms? You're looking at geopolitical. What's going on in areas of the world? You know, what does the South China Sea confrontation between Philippines and China may mean for shipping, for example?
Well, that's going to have a huge event if it does blow up. you're looking at a variety of different elements and then making kind of some, good educated guesses like, okay, this is an area that we really need to be watching. The Huthi again, you know, a Black Swan event, but they had been attacking ships in the past.
And so people had been looking at that saying this, could happen in the future. And if it wasn't the Huthis, it could have been the, the Suez Canal, because in many ways, Ever Given was a warning about that. It was a warning that you can plug up a choke point. Dolly, another perfect one. You know, nobody foresaw Dolly taking out the bridge in Baltimore, but everyone can see, man, a port can close in the United States.
It may not be a bridge strike. It may be a union strike, maybe a hurricane. It may be some sort of accident that we don't even envision at this point. And now all of a sudden, how do you adjust to this scenario and deal with it? Unfortunately, what we deal with with a lot is by the time we deal with a crisis, we're onto the next one.
And so we really haven't taken the moment to kind of step back and learn from it. One of the things I love to do is, highlight these issues. This is what we should have learned from 2021 off of LA and Long Beach. And I think many people did. I think there are many companies now who were just exclusively in the LA and Long Beach now, maybe or not, maybe they're looking at different routes for coming in.
Maybe they've given themselves a bit of a background because that demonstration showed us if you're going to bank coming into one port, you may be subjected to what happens to that port. And so I like to take the historical analysis, but I also like to take the kind of what the military calls lessons learned.
What did you learn from this event? How do you incorporate it going forward?
Eric Fullerton [00:17:16]:
And I'm kind of curious if you have a different or similar perspective, is it feels like we're at this interesting time where, in some ways, especially, post COVID due to some process and some technology that's in place, it feels like. Certain aspects of supply chains are more resilient, but it also feels like the volume of crises, and that could be geopolitical, could be weather, could be labor, like we've just seen, is happening much more frequently, and really with no end in sight.
Sentiment feel right to you, or do you have kind of a different take on that?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:17:54]:
No, I think it's true. When you create systems that are operating at the volume and velocity we're talking about, they're much easier to kind of jam up. And not only that, there's also some agents that are trying to jam them up. I mean, the Huthi are intentionally trying to do this. get a situation where Okay, this situation emerges and I have this volume of traffic that's coming past me and all I got to do is raise a threat and I'm going to cause an impact.
I think you also have to have a view of, is this bad or good? Because what's bad for me as a shipper may be very good for the ocean carrier. For example, the Huthis are bad for me as a shipper because my cargo has to go a longer distance. I got to pay more for it. But if you're an ocean carrier who's sitting there with a lot of laid up extra ships, It's not a bad thing.
And so understanding the different elements of the supply chain, I think, are very important too. Because the end all be all is you as the consumer or you as the shipper, but the other players along the chain are looking at this also a lot differently. And you know, one of the things that you see is when you cause consternation in the chain, you know, there's also the unintended consequences.
Now, I would argue that the supply chain is more impacted by events in the future. In places other than you're looking. So when you have a backlog, for example, on the U. S. East and Gulf Coast ports, what that means is that containers aren't moving in the system anymore. That means what would be empty containers are not heading to Asia like they should be, which means in a few months after the strike ends, they're There may be a period of time when, wait a minute, there's not enough containers to load, and now that's hitting me a quarter or two later in the cycle.
And that's something I really hadn't been thinking about till now, and now I'm going to be subjected to it. So I think there's a lot of dynamics at play. You know, we, always love to use the term supply chain, and the problem with using the term supply chain, Supply chain is the weakest link breaks the supply chain.
What you need to be thinking about is a supply web where if you sever one leg of the web, it's still connected. There are still, you know, divergent parts to go to. I think that's something that becomes very clear, that once you realize how susceptible the system is, that's when you want to build in redundancy.
The obviously issue that we both know is that redundancy tends to cost money. And so what you want is the most efficient, yet resilient system you can come up with. And that's been true of history. The Romans were designing this 2, 000 years ago.
Eric Fullerton [00:20:16]:
A lot of people will think about the supply chain, like this linear thing, but it's actually, like a chain link fence, right? Of all these different pieces. And if, if one part maybe breaks, yes, that's the case, but it also has, as you talked about, has all these downstream effects and it's always like on to the next thing.
Rather than like zooming out and actually seeing, well, now that this is happening in East coast ports, or now this is happening with Red Sea, there's these other downstream effects I need to take care of. but instead I think it just becomes get through crisis business as usual. I don't know. It's not really holistic its nature.
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:20:55]:
And we like to think linear. You know, I'm a history teacher, and one of the things I fight is kind of timeline history. I don't like teaching that way, because you get this idea that there has to be an event, and a cause, and an event. it's not interesting. To me, it's time.
I love to teach themes in history because I can jump around times and I can look at that. You know, one of the things I love to do is, me in the morning, get up and look at it. You know, a dozen major news sites, see what's going on and making connections of, wow, that event is actually linked to this event.
One of the things I do on my channels, I'll do a episode. I try to do it about every couple of weeks called What the Ship, where I take kind of the five big stories. And at the end, I kind of pull them together. And lots of times there are five stories from all over the place. But in the end, I kind of like, okay, these are how they're all linked together and what they mean.
And, we just don't have the time or the bandwidth at times to really take a step back and look at that. And I'm very fortunate. I mean, I'm a tenured professor. I get to kind of sit back and do these things is I can take some time to kind of look back and really digest this and say, ah, this is what I'm seeing.
This is what this kind of means. You know, before what happened with the port strike, I'd gotten a note from someone saying, Hey, I watched a video of yours back in June. And I already knew that this was going to kind of happen. And so I was able to kind of jump ahead of this. And get a jump on it.
Eric Fullerton [00:22:08]:
That's awesome. All right. So, we're kicking off our podcast here and, uh, you know, we're not. We're not quite viral like you sell, but we, you know, one day, maybe we'll get there. so to do that, we're gonna, we're gonna ask about some hot takes. So whether you want to call it the supply chain or the supply web or logistics, maritime logistics, curious, a hot take that you have, maybe not everyone sees the same way, about the industry as a whole that, you have such a unique perspective and so much research into it, what do you think?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:22:38]:
One of the things I'm watching right now is this realignment of the major container liners. this is a really interesting thing to me. One of the things we've seen over the past 20 years is the ocean carriers have gotten less of them, but they're more powerful. They're bigger than ever before.
You know, entities like Mediterranean Shipping Company, which is a privately owned company, but it's the largest shipping company in the world owned by the Aponte family is massive. It's really an impressive thing. And you're seeing now the realignment of what's going on in the world's oceans. And kind of one of the things I'm looking at here is, is how that containerization is going to change.
We're kind of pushing the limit right now with containerization. The Chinese are coming out with this concept to build even larger ships that we have out there. Now they're talking about. Ships 27,000-30,000 boxes, which were unheard of, you know, a few years ago, but now you're not going through the Suez Canal, which was the big limiting factor.
Well, I can build. Even bigger ships. And ironically, when the Suez Canal in the 50s and 60s, that's what got us the super tankers. That's what generated the huge mass of oil tankers. And so, you know, my hot take right now really keeping an eye on the shipping companies. They play such a role. In the way we do business, their modes of operation, they have a lot of power in that they can charge surcharges, they control their rates and their, uh, their routes very well.
They're much more resilient. They're a different breed than they were 10 years ago, where in the 2010s, they were fighting for profitability. Now they've tasted profitability in the early 2020s. that's a whole new beast we're seeing in these new ocean carriers. They want profitability.
They're going to lay ships up. They're going to control routes. they're going to do everything they can to make sure that they are going to be, making money, which means you as a shipper or consumer has to understand that is a big change we're about to see.
Eric Fullerton [00:24:30]:
Awesome. Okay. So, you know, we went a little bit about your, you know, what's going on with shipping, the podcast, the channel. We talked a little bit about your journey, went into some current events stuff. Anything that, you wanted me to ask you that I didn't or that you want to talk about or some, closing thoughts?
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:24:48]:
So, You know, one of the things I learned when I started this is like, okay, I know ships. and I know shipping, but one of the things that really amazed me over this kind of three year journey I've been on is how much I realized, okay, I can't just talk about ships. I got to talk about road.
I got to talk about rail. I got to talk about aviation. Because it doesn't do you any good just to talk about one mode. You got to be really cognizant in all these modes, because we're talking about intermodalism. We're talking everything from packaging into the box at the manufacturing site to the last mile delivery.
And to me, that is really the thing that has, really changed my view a lot. In what I watch and what I see, you know, I used to sit there and say, I'll just read boat stuff and read ship stuff, but now I'm sitting there reading about, you know, what does it mean when yellow goes bankrupt? what does it mean?
You know, the fact that while the shipping carriers are consolidating these 10 massive companies to control 85 percent of all container capacity. On the flip side, 85 percent of trucking companies in the U. S. are one to six trucks. You know, which means that during periods of peaks and troughs, are we going to see the growth of new trucking companies?
Are we going to see the collapse of trucking companies? What does that mean? What happens when California passes a law about diesel trucks in their dreyage fleet? Wow, that's going to impact L.A. and Long Beach. You know, what happens when class one railways go from a half a mile long train with four crew members on it, To a two mile long train with two people on it, all of a sudden you're like, wow, okay, now you got to understand how everything moves in a much more holistic route.
I got a route around Africa. Well, aviation air transportation is going to go through the roof because you've got to prioritize this cargo. The trans Asian rail route, you know, from Berlin to Beijing you know, that's historical. That's up and running. So One of the things that amazes me about this is it makes you think and want to learn in different ways.
And there is so much to this, Eric. I mean, again, you know, one of the things that I've been fortunate to do is I fell myself into this little niche, this little area that talks about commercial shipping, talks about it for the consumer, talks about its role with the government and the military. And I've just been fortunate about that.
And there's a lot of expertise that's out there. I'm always shocked how much I learned from people when I attended Velocity with you up in Chicago. Just talking to some of the customers were amazing because they're dealing with issues that I hadn't even thought about, but it's so critical to understand.
Eric Fullerton [00:27:15]:
I'm warming to this idea. Maybe it's not the supply chain, Sal. It's the supply web, the supply web. I like it. Awesome. So, you know, from the first time I talked to Sal, to today, to the next time I always feel like, I always learn a lot. So Sal. Thank you very much for being here. Uh, thank you for being really, truly a great embodiment of a supply chain champion. We're going to put your, X handle and your Facebook information and all that, uh, and your YouTube channel in the description and stuff, make sure you give Sal a follow.
If you want to stay up to speed, what's going on with shipping and Sal, man, good talking to you and thanks for being here.
Salvatore Mercogliano [00:27:58]:
Oh, Eric, it's great to be here with you too.
Eric Fullerton [00:28:02]:
Thank you for listening to Supply Chain Champions. To get connected and learn more, visit project44. com and click the link in the comments to subscribe to project44's newsletter. Tune in, get smart, and move forward.