The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
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The C-suite’s role in well-being with Dan Schwabel
Jen Fisher (Jen): Hi, WorkWell listeners, I’m really excited to share that my book Work Better Together is officially out. Conversations with WorkWell guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this book. It’s all about how to create a more human-centered workplace. And as we return to the office for many of us, this book can help you move forward into post pandemic life with strategies and tools to strengthen your relationships and focus on your well-being. It’s available now from your favorite book retailor.
There’s no doubt that workplace well-being is a top priority for today’s workforce. The great resignation is a clear indication that many people are no longer willing to tolerate jobs that leave them unhappy, and in a constant state of stress and fatigue. But I’ve noticed that the current conversations around workplace well-being often overlook the C-suite and how they’re impacted and how that can impact an entire organization. So, we reached out to Dan Schawbel at Workplace Intelligence and together we conducted a marketplace survey of employees and executives to better understand how C-suite leaders can improve both their employees and their own well-being.
This is the WorkWell podcast series. Hi, I’m Jen Fisher, chief well-being officer for Deloitte and I’m so pleased to be with you today to talk about all things well-being. I’m here with Dan Schawbel. Dan’s a New York Times bestselling author and managing partner of Workplace Intelligence. He’s also a workplace researcher, global keynote speaker, podcast host, and career expert. Dan, welcome to the show.
Dan Schawbel (Dan): So, happy to be here with you, Jen.
Jen: I’m really looking forward to this conversation and the topic I know that we are both passionate about, and we worked on this marketplace survey together to specifically explore the C-suite’s role in organizational well-being. I think we have a similar point of view, but what do you think is the most surprising finding uncovered in the survey? And you can have more than one.
Dan: This is actually very tough for me, Jen, because this is the 62nd study I’ve done in 10 years. So, I just feel like I’m so deep in this space that I’ve kind of moved from something that’s surprising about outcomes to more of like validation of like oh, finally, we have a stat that proves what we’re trying to get at and communicate to other people so that they can make positive changes in their workplace and professional and personal life. And I think that’s what makes this survey unique and special, as we
include the C-suite and employees to get both perspectives. That’s why I believe, and I think you agree too, that’s why it’s kind of caught on fire, and it raises it to the highest level. So, we can have these larger conversations about how do we improve work for everyone, because personal and professional lives are so intertwined. So, what I would say, I thought it was interesting and further validated what we probably both believe is that there’s a disconnect between how employees are feeling and handling the current time at work versus how the C-suite thinks that employees are doing. So, for instance, 68% of employees and 81% of the C-suite say that improving their well-being is more important than advancing their career. I thought that was really cool and interesting, because we are seeing that people have been prioritizing things that might have been an oversight years ago, because I think COVID brought a lot of things to the forefront, brought a lot of issues that people are having personally and professionally because it’s inescapable, especially if you’re working from home, you kind of feel that. And because I think globally a lot of people experienced great pain over the past two years. And so, I think that that’s why that, you know, safety, security, health, well-being these things really got pushed to the top of what people are looking for in a job and then the other thing is only 56% of employees think their company’s executives care about their well-being while 91% of the C-suite think that employees believe they care about it. So, that’s kind of like it’s sad that there is this level of disconnect, but I would wager that even though remote work is good in many ways, one of the things is it can tamper levels of empathy and make people feel a little bit more disconnected sometimes.
Jen: I think what was fascinating about that stat and, I think, Arianna pointed this out when she shared about our survey and we found this too, I mean many in the C-suite are struggling themselves. And so they might not be verbalizing it or vocalizing it because of the roles that they’re in leading an organization, but it’s really hard to understand how others are doing if you yourself aren’t doing well. So, your barometer or your perspective on that is skewed from the start because you’re not really looking at it from a place of thriving.
Dan: And I think when you’re so deep into your work and you have so many responsibilities. You can sometimes not pay attention to the issues you’re actually experiencing personally and professionally. Sometimes it does have to erase the attention. So, I think even this study when leaders see the results and they read all the different articles we’re it got covered, I think it’s kind of a wait a second, maybe I’m not doing so great.
Jen: There is kind of a myth, I mean, I guess. Is it a myth or is it a fact? I guess you’re kind of saying that it’s pretty, you know, that leaders don’t deal with well-being challenges. And I guess we could go a couple of ways on that. Is it their own well-being challenges that they continually push to the side to focus on work and their organization or is it that C-suite leaders historically, you know, outside of HR haven’t really had to carry the responsibility of well-being challenges within their workforce, or is it both?
Dan: No, I think what this survey addresses is that the majority of C-suite thinks it is their responsibility and is going to invest more in this area. So, there is hope in that regard. But I do think that there is this perception stereotype that, oh, if you’re an executive, especially if you’re in the C-suite, you’re doing okay. You’re making a lot of money, but I think people overlook the fact that, it’s more responsibility, more money, more problems. And so, once you’re at the top, it’s not like you’re getting paid for the fun of it. Like you’re doing a lot more work, in fact, you’re more likely to work on nights and weekends if you’re in the C-suite, especially if you’re dealing with customers. If you’re the head of sales, and you
hear from a customer that’s paying you a lot of money, like you’re probably going to be on call for that. And so, I think even in a remote workplace there is that ongoing pressure that they feel, and because they’re role models, because a lot of the C-suite they’re shepherding a lot of these policies that are created in HR that can affect employees as well.
Jen: I mean, in our survey you one of the most, kind of, more insightful statistics that came out of it or one of the insights that came out of it was that almost 70% of the C-suite would strongly consider leaving their current role for an organization or a role that provides them better well-being. And to your point, I think that’s surprising to most, and I think the reactions that I’ve heard is, well the C-suite is typically responsible for these types of things. So, if they are feeling this way, then are the rest of us doomed?
Dan: I mean, I thought that was obviously…our headline stat was really fascinating and especially in a good economy, if you’re given more options even at the C-suite or executive level you’re probably going to be a harshest critic on your job. You’re going to be like, oh, there needs to be something better than me than what I’m currently situated in. But if you’re in recession, maybe not as much, and especially in 2020 it wasn’t just a COVID pandemic, but it was a recession. Meaning fewer options from a career mobility standpoint, and that’s part of what we found the study too is that had a lingering impact on people.
Jen: Also, what surprised me the most about that stat, because, I mean, C-suite leaders do move around. That’s not something that doesn’t happen. It actually happens quite often. I think we just don’t pay attention to it as much. But for me, I think, what was most interesting or insightful is that the reason is for better well-being, as opposed to for different experience, for a larger company, for more pay. I don’t know because we didn’t ask this question specifically, but I think that it’s really fascinating that the reason is because they’re seeking better well-being. And we know that that is kind of a huge driver and the great resignation probably more so than many, I mean, I think there’s many drivers of the great resignation, but people looking for a better way or looking for an organization that does care about their well-being or provides them better well-being either through flexibility or autonomy or other things that we know are important, but I never thought that that would be a reason that the C-suite would be leaving. I always thought that the C-suite would leave for other reasons.
Dan: I think one of the things that I’ve been thinking about too, just seeing these results and thinking about and pondering, is you assume that if you’re an executive and you’re working remote and you’re struggling with your mental and physical health because of work, because we found that this is stemming from the work they’re doing, you assume that your spouse might have a say in you staying with your company too. There are other influences and because you’re working remote, they’re literally seeing you not being healthy, and you’re probably vocal about that and they’re probably influencing you to stay at your company or not. Saying, “Oh well, you might want to find something else, because this is just not working for not just you but for the family.”
Jen: So, why, I guess, in your mind…I think that progress is being made and you and I have talked about this. I mean, there’s a lot more conversation about this topic and a lot more recognition at the C-suite level that well-being is important. That it’s a strategic priority. That organizations and leaders need to do more. But I think we both agree that the action around this is a bit lagging. Why is that?
Dan: Well, I didn’t even know that this was as big of a deal as it was until I interviewed you and various other chief well-being officers back a long time ago, like in 2020. And so, when that happened, I’m like wait a second like this is already starting to get prioritized and then fast forward to where we are today. And I think what it comes down to is the underlying issues aren’t being addressed. And I think that it’s very difficult because we do have this level of uncertainty of okay, in the next few months people are going to fully go back to the office and we still may be hybrid. What is working constantly look like because the state of the world is changing. Like are we going to go back into a COVID spike in winter again, and how is that going to affect everyone. And so, I think that there are policies and behaviors that need to be changed. You talk a lot, I mean we just talked in LinkedIn live and I think you made a really good point about this is, about a behavior change, and that’s not going to happen in 5 minutes, but I think it’s a C-suite’s responsibility like they think in this study that they’re going to be the change that they want to see in their organization.
Jen: And I know that you and I also talked about, but this disconnect between the workforce or employees and this C-suite, I guess, if the C-suite is feeling it and they know that it’s an issue and the workforce and employees have been very vocal, either through the great resignation or otherwise, even if they stated an organization. So, it’s surprising to me that this disconnect still exists between the C-suite and the workforce. And I guess, what can leaders do about that or vice versa? Like what can the workforce do about it? Like how do we need to bring this together?
Dan: It can’t just be surveys. I think it needs to be these larger conversations. Hopefully, we’re sparking some of that as well. But I think what tends to happen at work is we should take care of this, oh, this is important, it’s affecting our lives, it’s affecting the people we work with, but we still have to finish this project. Right? So, a lot of the things that need to be addressed kind of get tucked away even though they affect people to continue to prioritize big work tasks.
Jen: How do we change that?
Dan: Well, I think it needs to be built into a workday. I think, not only these conversations have to happen, but it’s real programs that people adhere to, behaviors that are changed from the C-suite down, and over time you assume that culture within that organization will change if all those things happen, easier said than done, of course.
Jen: I know you and I, I mean, we talked about this before. I know you talk about this regularly and so do I, we’ve been talking a lot about the C-suite and the rest of the workforce, but middle managers or I don’t even like to call them that, but like people leaders, the people that are leading the teams within an organization that are actually getting the work done day-to-day, you know. I think those are some of the hardest roles in an organization because you get hit from all sides. And so, how do we bring those leaders into the conversation into the action? Because to me, I think, they’re pivotal in helping to close that gap.
Dan: I think it starts with the C-suite and then I think between the C-suite exhibiting the behaviors and being committed and HR forming the policies that mirror that. Then I think it really comes down to these conversations that have need to be had between middle management and workers. Because the complication is that there’s no one-size-fits-all. Every company is different depending on geography within their organization, business function, where people are working, and all these different things. And so, I think, that it does, it is these ongoing conversations that managers and their employees have
with each other to try and make it work and tweak their communication, tweak how they operate in order to make work more manageable and healthier.
Jen: How do you feel about, I think this is what you’re saying, but having people that are doing the work actually make the recommendations on how to redesign work to make it better?
Dan: And there is where, I think, everything is going to go. I think everything is going to be more personalized and customized moving forward because everyone is different, even if we bundle people with gender and age and generation and geography, at the end of the day, everyone is different in their own way and has different needs and a different way they work. This person likes to work at night versus in the morning. They’re better being independent versus in a group. I don’t know. Everyone is different in their own way, and I think that needs to be captured in these conversations and that’s why, even if there’s policies and programs at a high level, I think individually, these conversations and the relationship managers have with their employees is critical to making it work for those specific individuals.
Jen: When you say that, the first thing that comes to mind is, well, this is a very, yes, its behaviors, but this is a very different leadership skillset, and I know there’s a lot out there that you can read about. One of the struggles with hybrid is that many people are struggling with how do I lead a hybrid team or how do I lead in a hybrid environment? But this very personalized, individualized way of working that you’re talking about, I think, requires a completely different and new set of leadership skillsets. So, it’s not just behaviors, but it’s kind of mindset, but it’s also what we have looked for and valued in what makes a good leader.
Dan: And I think one of the things is adaptability. I remember one of my early studies was around what are the top-most important leadership skills? It was actually for my second book, Promote Yourself, about how to get ahead in your career and eventually get into leadership positions. So, we did a survey about what managers are looking for when promoting and adaptability was very low on the list, whereas I think today, even if people don’t admit that adaptability should be higher on the list, I think for sure in today’s unpredictable world where things are constantly moving where maybe you just hired someone for your team and their work preferences are different than the last two employees you hired, you’re going to have to adapt to that as well, and they’re going to have to adapt to your management style. So, I think that it’s kind of a fluid workplace that we’re in.
Jen: In our survey on our study, we saw some of these changes around the generational differences in the way that leaders are prioritizing well-being, their beliefs in the importance of well-being, or their role specific to organizational well-being and we saw some pretty big differences with Gen Z and millennial leaders versus prior generations. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dan: That really stood out to me. So, in my first, I believe it was my first 8 to 12 studies, was heavily focused on generations because I went from, in my career, personal branding to generations, especially millennials in the workplace, because I’m a millennial too, more of like future of work. So, what I find interesting, and that mimics some of the data I saw early on, is that young leaders focused more on well-being benefits or health savvier or report being health savvier are transparent about their well-being and have helped their employees disconnect more than older leaders. So, I thought that was really interesting. This is self-reported. So, it’s hard to say what actually happens versus what they’re reporting, but I do think that, especially with younger generations growing up now with their use of
technology and their general awareness in terms of access to information, they’re probably more aware that this is a problem versus people who have been in the workforce for like 30 years that are probably a little bit more numb to it.
Jen: Well, I know. I was going to say with the younger leaders, it’s probably a reflection of their own experiences too in the workplace and what they’re passionate about changing because of those experiences. And I would say as I’m not a millennial or Gen Z, but I would say also I do think that while there is more responsibility the more you grow within an organization, you tend to feel more empowered to make decisions to fit your life. You don’t feel like you always have to ask permission. You have that flexibility or autonomy. And so, it doesn’t mean that the workload or what I do or what I’m responsible for gets any less, and in fact, sometimes it’s more, but the way that I manage it, I’m able to do it in a way that works for me, which I think with younger people within an organization, they don’t always feel that level of autonomy and empowerment.
Dan: At a high level, I think, I’m not sure if you agree, but chief well-being officer, that title should at once be shared with everyone in the C-suite. Actually, you could even argue that everyone in the company should have that title in a way.
Jen: I wrote an article, how to be the chief well-being officer of your own life.
Dan: No, it’s true, though. I think everyone needs to take this seriously. Obviously, people are living longer, but it’s not like we don’t have a lot of diseases, not like people don’t suffer from burnout, and we’re a little bit more aware of it, because of this study, because various examples we read about in the news, but I think there is hope. I think that that’s part of what we found with younger generations is this is something that’s being taken seriously, and we’ll survey in another, what, 10 years or so to see if they are having this impact or if they feel the same way or if they’ve had so much work experience that they’ve settled in and they’re not focusing on it anymore like that. So, that’s always what’s interesting about surveying age groups is it’s almost like the Harvard Grant study. They collected data for 75 years and that’s why you really can know behavior change.
Jen: Okay Dan, I think we need to commit to collecting data for at least 99 years.
Dan: But I think the other things that I thought were really interesting about this study, actually going back to your earlier question, was this idea of transparency in publishing. You know how weak that is. More companies are publishing diversity data, a lot of tech companies especially, but I think that people are going to be publishing more of well-being or health data, because in general, health care and health data is a little bit more accessible than ever before, with these apps. I use an app with my hospital and doctor and Telehealth. There’s a lot of those trends that are happening as well, but I do think that because health and health care are such at the top of people’s minds and how they’re evaluating companies that this type of data and how companies are evaluated as it relates to the health and well-being of their employees will continue to become more important. And I think that, and we talked about this too on LinkedIn, is with the publication of diversity data and more around that and companies requiring certain percentages or committing to certain percentages of different minority groups in the executive level, I think that that was a huge step in pushing that forward in a positive way, and I think that also opens the gate up for more of these well-being conversations and data to be published as well.
Jen: I completely agree. As you know, that is an area that I’m incredibly passionate about. I think it’s really, really important. We talked about following in the footsteps of DEI, but also there’s some precedence with ESG and some of those metrics that are in ESG being incomplete in terms of giving a full picture of how the workforce is doing, but I think the challenge there beyond just health data is what are the appropriate metrics and how do we get to some standardization around these types of metrics and looking at what does thriving look like in the workplace beyond just what we can gather from health-related data? Are there other metrics? And productivity is definitely not one of them, but I’m super-interested in that, and I think it’s incredibly important and I, for one, think that that’s a trend that I could wholeheartedly get behind and we’ll get behind.
Dan: That was one of my big conclusions since 2020’s. With remote work especially, people are working more hours in exchange for flexibility and a lot of them who had never worked remote before, and even some that did, the lines between personal and professional are blurred. It’s hard to set boundaries, especially in the beginning, and therefore, you can feel like you’re always working and work bleeds into your personal life more. And while that increases productivity, which you could say is very good for organizations and potentially that person’s career, the drawback is that they can be burned out, and with that burnout, it can cause turnover. So, while in the beginning it might seem great, actually long term, you could lose talent and it could cost you more, and I’ve always been interested in this, the cycle of burnout. It’s like, wow, they’re working really hard, but they’re burning out, then they’re unhappy, and then they leave and then you have to hire a replacement and you can lose good talent that way. So, I think productivity is good within reason.
Jen: I think we just need to have the understanding that working longer hours doesn’t actually mean that you’re more productive. It just means you’re working longer hours. It might actually mean that you’re less productive, which I think that remains to be seen. You’ve probably followed some of the four-day workweek studies.
Dan: I did. Actually, fun fact is I think I did the first four-day workweek study in 2018.
Jen: Oh, really. What did you conclude from that and how was it done?
Dan: Actually, my favorite survey question of my career is, with pay being consistent, how many days a week would you work? One of the responses was zero, and only 2% of responses globally chose zero. So, not working and getting paid the same amount as working five days a week, but the most popular was four days. But what’s really interesting about the four-day work week discussion is it seems interesting. When you say it, it’s like people are like, oh, that’s really great, but then in practice, the issue with it is not only is it hard to standardize, not only you got to agree on the right day, but really the issue is you have to probably work just as many hours, but in four days, and then you could burn out working too many hours in those four days.
Jen: In a world where people are telling us, especially women and other groups of people, people are telling us that flexibility is most important. I think for me if you tell me I have to get the same amount of work done in four days, that’s actually a lot more restrictive than telling me, you have seven days, figure it out. So, I struggle with it. I think it’s the pendulum swinging all the way to one side. Not that it’s bad, and I think it could work in some organizations and some industries, but I don’t know. Like you said before, there’s not a one-size-fits-all answer here, but for someone like me, I feel a four-day workweek actually feels more restrictive and provides me with less flexibility and autonomy.
Dan: Going back to transparency, one of the things that actually I think is really important, but people are just afraid to talk about how they’re feeling. Really, this is not rocket science. It’s like if you’re talking with your manager, people feel that if they share how they’re feeling, especially if it’s, let’s say negative, I’m not feeling well or I’m taking too much work, they feel like that could hurt their career prospects, and I think that’s one of the big reasons why people don’t have these conversations. And in this study, we found that 33% of workers and 22% of the C-suite say that they always are often sharing information about their well-being with their managers. So, it’s pretty rare, but I do think that I’ve talked to a lot of executives over the past two years, and they compared to years before that, pre-COVID, they are now asking employees how they’re feeling, as in like at the start of the call, like how are you doing. And I don’t think that happened ever before. So, at least we’re heading in that direction, but it’s still these conversations are being had. And I’ll always remember, I don’t know if you remember this, but there was someone who asked their manager for a mental health day off because they weren’t really well and the manager said yes, you’re setting a great example. Other people should ask for this. And it went viral, and I think it went viral because people were shocked that the employee would have the guts to ask for that and that the manager would be so welcoming of it. It’s sad, but it also shows you that, hey, this is important, and it is happening more, but how do we make it okay and give people the comfort to talk about this.
Jen: I think that the sentiment around it is definitely changing, but I also mean, well, I just lost my train of thought on that. I don’t know where I was going. OK, so I’ll switch to something else. So, Dan, you mentioned earlier, and we talked about this in the paper and in the survey, health savvy leader, so can you talk to me about what is a health savvy leader and if somebody doesn’t feel like they’re health savvy and wants to become more health savvy, like what can they do? What are some actions to take to become more health savvy?
Dan: I think one of the biggest things is setting boundaries like I had said previously, it’s when you shut off, when you turn on, those type of conversations are really critical to have, right, because everyone is on the same page, people know when they can access you, when you might not respond to emails and I remember I heard from so many of my friends in 2020 they’re like I’m like burned out and my CEO, it was a smaller company, was emailing us at like 9:00 o’clock on a Friday. So, I think having these boundaries and having those conversations is really critical. I think the other thing is blocking off time, so if it’s Tuesday, and I actually do this with my girlfriend like every morning we go for a walk between 7:00 and 8:00 in the morning, and that’s kind of a routine, so it’s taking accountability yourself, not just waiting for the C-suite to come up with some idea, and even if you’re in the C-suite, to block off time for your mental and physical health. So, especially if you’re working from home and you have a little bit more control of your schedule, block off time during the day when most of your workers or employees are free for meetings, just to be available for meetings and then block off time for mental and physical health routines such as going for a walk or run, nice, taking your bike out or lunch with the friends. So, I always said it’s like if we say that our calendars kind of reflect who we are and if it’s on our calendar doesn’t exist and we live and die by our calendars and all those phrases, then we need to reflect our well-being kind of goals and personal activities on our calendar as well. So, I think we need to create our calendar, so it reflects personal and professional and that it gives us the breaks we need to recharge because I remember there was a study in Fast Company, I read years ago about how for every, I think it’s like 40 minutes of work, you need a certain amount of time for a break, and so I think we need to get in the habit of taking more breaks and have leaders be okay with people taking breaks and again this
goes back to good communication and a leader that’s very empathetic and welcoming of those type of conversations. So, I think going back to what you said before about, hey, let’s talk about leadership skills, I think that’s a really key leadership skill. In fact, it’s my last book back to human, Chapter Nine was lead with empathy and I think that’s more of what we need to do because people have to be okay to have those conversations and then they need a leader who kind of respects their situation but at the same time, we don’t want the pendulum to swing too far and people taking advantage of those situations either.
Jen: Right, there’s some realities to work, right? I mean, you’re there to work and get work done. But I completely agree, and I think that to me a health savvy leader is one that you were describing specific actions and things to do. But it’s somebody that understands the impact of work on our health and well-being and the impact of bad work related behaviors, right. I love your example around our calendars, reflecting who we are because you can ask anybody on my team, they have access to my calendar. I have breakfast, lunch, dinner, 2 snacks, workout time. I’m a caregiver for my mother, so I put her doctor’s appointments on my calendar. I’m pretty transparent about those things and open about those things. I think everybody is going to have a different comfort level when it comes to that and kind of wanting transparency into their calendar, but it does humanize us, and quite frankly it gives me the permission because you’re right, if it’s not on my calendar, chances are I’m not going to do it.
Dan: I think the most humanizing part about the past two years, especially from a remote work perspective, is people now have a window to your home life. It’s not like people didn’t work from home five years ago or anything, but it’s, in terms of where we are now with a higher percentage, I think people have a better sense, you hear a baby crying, you hear dog, it’s something you wouldn’t get if people were in the office, but one of the things that we found going back to the study is that the C-suite that are, focusing on being health savvy, have benefited. It’s made them a better leader. It’s made them feel more connected to a bigger purpose. It’s made their job more rewarding. So, there’s been a lot more benefits than drawbacks and so I think that it is becoming a priority. The majority said it was a big priority and will continue to be, but I think that the work, if you don’t get your health right, then you’re just not going to be as productive. So, we need to prioritize people focusing on well-being even before their own job, because when they do, their job will be much better for them and everyone else.
Jen: Everything else yeah, I mean everything.
Dan: It’s like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Its message that and I talk about this as well is like if someone feels safe, secure, they have strong relationships, they’re going to perform better, right? So, if you’re healthy and you have a sense of security and you have good relationships with your team, you’re more likely to achieve your full potential at work, but if you don’t have that, you won’t. So why not unlock people’s full potential by supporting their well-being or at least, coaching them to be able to do that.
Jen: Yeah, so let’s dig into that, right! I mean if people listening and probably most of the listeners of this podcast are hopefully vigorously shaking their heads, yes, to everything we’ve been saying, but if they’re not convinced yet. What are the consequences for leaders and their organizations if they don’t take, if you have a leader that’s like not it’s all good, everything is fine, that disconnect between leaders and their workforce, 91% of the C-suite think they’re doing a good job, but their workforce doesn’t feel the same, so if we don’t close that gap, or if an organization doesn’t close that gap, what are the consequences?
Dan: This is where the real pain happens. It’s harder to recruit and it’s hard to retain, and those are really key metrics, especially from an HR perspective that matter, and over the past two years we’ve seen that CEOs especially have prioritized talent management as being number one for what they are focused on right now, right! Especially for the war for talent and everything that’s brewing in that respect, so if you don’t do it, you lose talent and with the world we live in, that’s more transparent and you have social media, word will get around that you don’t support people’s well-being and then that hurts your ability to recruit talent. So, yeah, it definitely pays to do the right thing, or at least to attempt to do the right thing in today’s world because it’s just like what I think if we go deep into a recession and the C-suite wants everyone back into the office full time and people are really unhappy with that, well the next year we could be in a good, healthy economy and they’ll choose other employees to work for. So, you’re doing the right thing in the hardest times is going to be really important, and people remember that. People write articles on that when employers do the right thing during hard times. So, I think, especially with the well-being and the world we live in with COVID still kind of like a dark cloud above us, I think that doing the right thing as a leader, doing the right thing as an organization is what’s going to really pay dividends and we’ll say this forever, right! I mean, this is always going to be important because people will remember it. You get positive retention and it’s going to be easier to recruit because people will say positive things about you and that will attract more candidates.
Jen: Yeah, and ultimately your people are going to do better work, right?! So, it hits the bottom line of the organization in other ways too, right!
Dan: Yeah, I’ve talked to a lot of my entrepreneur friends and the saying that they have is you can’t grow a business if you’re too busy replacing talent all the time.
Jen: I’m a complete believer in hybrid and I think there are our challenges to it, but I think that they are actually positive challenges that we can overcome, just it’s going to require leaders to lead differently.
Dan: It’s not like we go to school, and we learn how to manage a hybrid workplace.
Jen: We also don’t go to school and learn how to manage it all in office.
Dan: That’s true. So true.
Jen: Right, I mean I didn’t learn that in school. So, we all just kind of I think what we need to admit is that we don’t know how to do it and we’re learning and again, I think that’s where leaders and the workforce can come together, hey, I don’t know how to lead in a hybrid environment, but like help me, tell me what you need, tell me you know what’s going to be useful to you? I think that is a vulnerable place for leaders to say I don’t know how to do something. But the truth is, we don’t. We’re kind of figuring out what works. And to me, I think that’s cool and exciting because I think that the opportunity to change the way we work forever I think it’s here right! We’re doing it, hopefully.
Dan: Yeah, and I think we’re going to be in this state of flux potentially forever. And so again, it goes back to what I was saying with adaptability that being a skill. Being able to adapt to different environments and lead and connect with different people. There’s always going to be something. It’s like my first job was as a teenager, I was working as a caterer and so I had to work with all sorts of people and I do always preach that working in a service job early on can be very helpful, because the great skill of the world is being able to work with different people and that carries on into the workplace regardless of where you are and what you do.
Jen: What your status in an organization is, absolutely. So, Dan last word on the survey, the study or anything you want to leave our listeners with.
Dan: Yeah, I think it’s very hopeful. Regardless of this disconnect that we have been talking about for like an hour or 40 minutes, I think that it’s on the agenda. It’s something that people are becoming more conscious of. You can’t hide from it anymore because it’s affecting everyone, regardless of your level within the organization, and I think that it’s going to continue to become something that we all live with and work through. This is not something that Jen and I are solving tomorrow, right? Like no, it’s an ongoing conversation because the world is changing, and we have to continually adapt and figure out what’s going to work for each individual.
Jen: Yeah, and I mean we didn’t get here overnight, so we’re not going to solve it overnight. But I think that’s the opportunity to actually solve it for generations to come is an exciting one. So, I agree with you. It’s hopeful. And Dan, thank you for the collaboration on the study and much more. And thanks for being on the podcast today.
Dan: You got it. Thank you so much.
Jen: Thank you to our producers Rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the WorkWell podcast series on Deloitte.com or you can visit various podcatchers using the keyword WorkWell, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show don’t forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you’d like to hear on the WorkWell podcast series or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter @JenFish23. We’re always open to your recommendations and feedback. And of course, if you like what you hear, please share post and like this podcast. Thank you and be well.
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