The Creative Model Is Broken. What Comes Next?

Creative teams face constant pressure to move faster while working with tighter budgets. As the demand for content grows, brands need a creative process that gives strong ideas room to emerge and develop.

In this episode, Laura and Brian talk with Will Burns, founder and CEO of Ideasicle X, about how that process is evolving. They discuss why in-house teams can become trapped in familiar thinking and how outside perspectives can open new creative possibilities. Will also shares how virtual collaboration changes the way ideas take shape, where AI can strengthen production, and why the future of brand creativity may depend on choosing work that people will actually remember.

What is Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged?

This is your go-to podcast for all things marketing, branding, and customer experience. We’re bringing you honest and fun conversations with bite-sized insights. Hosted by BrightSign’s CMO Brian Rowley and Head of Integrated Marketing Laura Smith, you’ll hear from industry pros, creatives, and innovators about what’s actually working in today’s evolving, digital-first world. No fluff — just real insights on how brands are connecting with audiences and driving growth. Tune in for fresh ideas, big thinking, and all the tips you need to take your marketing game to the next level.

Will Burns: 00:00

Often these in house agencies will call us because they're so kind of stuck in the inertia of their brand and creative ways.

Laura Smith: 00:22

Welcome to Prose + Comms: Engagement, Unplugged. I'm Laura Smith.

Brian Rowley: 00:26

And I'm Brian Rowley.

Laura Smith: 00:28

So creative work is now under pressure from every direction, and we know this and we deal with this every day. Tighter budgets, faster timelines, more channels, AI generated content, and an endless demand for quote, unquote, fresh thinking. But the real opportunity may not be producing more ideas faster. It may be rethinking the model altogether behind how ideas are found, shaped, challenged, and brought to life. So today, we'll dive into this idea on today's episode where we'll chat with a guest who's redefining the creative process with the goal of making it more accessible and democratized.

Brian Rowley: 01:02

Yeah. I'm excited for this one, Laura. I think this is gonna be a fun conversation, but I would say before we jump into that and before we bring on today's guest, let's talk about something that every marketer can likely recall. And I'm sure you've thought through like over your career, you've been involved in a lot of different creative campaigns, but what's actually been your favorite creative campaign over the course of your career? And then what what kind of makes it stand out today?

Laura Smith: 01:32

So I'm gonna go back to my days at Arnold, where I know our guest from, but it was Progressive Insurance and the infamous flow. Right? So we were the agency that started that campaign. We brought really boring industry of insurance into a super fun creative world, basically. And so that campaign started we started with, you know and that that was my first time doing, like, TV and broadcast.

Laura Smith: 02:00

So I was digital, all digital. And so I was able to get into the world of broadcast, which, you know, coming back to it now, looking back, it was like I didn't love it. But it was fun and exciting and going to LA and spending all your time there and blah blah blah. But produce it takes six months to produce one thirty second spot. So to me, it was, like, overwhelming.

Laura Smith: 02:17

But that that whole concept and that watching that the creative team and kind of looking at the challenge that we're we're faced with and solving it in such a fun way by bringing the flow and having the character, having her personality bring all of those commercials to life. It was just it's so memorable. And when you say you knew Flo, I met Flo so many times. Her name is Stephanie Courtney. She was so down to earth and so real, like getting married to a teacher, like, just very real life person.

Laura Smith: 02:47

But when you saw her on camera and you saw her bring a script to life, it was just fascinating. So I feel like I have a little bit of that, like, fangirl still for her because, you know, just the process of of seeing a creative team take such a boring industry and and and concept and making that like the whole, you know, the white background shopping, blah blah blah. So that would that was definitely like has the the biggest impression on my career, I would say. But like I said, it was it wasn't like I wanted to continue to make, commercials. It was just more that it was the whole process from internally at the agency, the creative team, and then bringing it to life.

Laura Smith: 03:24

And I ended up working on the, motorcycle business, so beyond the auto, and that was some really, really cool creative that the team did that was just super fun and just different.

Brian Rowley: 03:34

Yeah, I think the interesting stuff to that is I think when you can follow it through the whole process and actually see it versus just the individual piece that you have. I mean, there's nothing for me more exciting than like when you're selecting talent to be in something or you're scouting location for it or you actually show up on location and all those things like for me, that's always like the the the, I guess, the high of it, you know, if you wanna if you wanna call it that.

Laura Smith: 04:00

Yeah. Because honestly, the one, like, fun fact about that is the creative team did not select flow. Like, that's not who they wanted as the main spokesperson. Like, like, we were like, no. The client was like, no.

Laura Smith: 04:12

This woman. This woman. And in the end, it was like but that was a collaborative process. It just shows, like, you know, it's always like, oh, the client always, making the stuff boring. But really the client had like a really good perspective on it.

Laura Smith: 04:22

And clearly it ended up being the perfect person. So it was just, again, watching that process.

Brian Rowley: 04:27

Yeah. Yeah. Very fun.

Laura Smith: 04:29

But do you have one, Brian, that you kind of stands out for you?

Brian Rowley: 04:32

Well, I think, going back to my Verizon days, I wasn't actually involved in the campaign, but I was involved with the team that was actually doing this, but, the Can You Hear Me Now? So the Test Man campaign that went on for years and years and years. And I actually, so the Test Man himself was a gentleman by the name of Paul Macharelli, and, had the opportunity to meet him through, you know, obviously coming into our office and doing some stuff and like just as as fun in that environment as he was like his character, the way that he portrayed himself in our ads was very similar to who he was. He just was a really fun guy that had just a really cool energy to him. So that was actually when this stood out.

Brian Rowley: 05:13

And I think the interesting thing about that was, you know, he was with that campaign for years. And then he then, if you remember, ended up going to Sprint. And actually, he was a spokesperson for Sprint for a period of time. And then even further then pivoted after that back to Verizon. And I think it was like '18 or 2018 or '19 or something around there.

Brian Rowley: 05:38

So it was just kind of an interesting thing. But I mean, a little bit of fan, you know, type things as well. I mean, when I was with Panasonic, obviously, we were very engaged with, you know, Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky had the opportunity to meet them. Obviously, two extremely decorated athletes from the US Olympic swim team. And again, great people.

Brian Rowley: 06:00

And so it's always fun in that case. I mean, that's, you know, taking, you know, obviously people who are well known and celebrity to per se, into account. But yeah, I think the the can you hear me now was probably one of my favorites.

Laura Smith: 06:13

Yeah. What's interesting about those two that you mentioned, it's like, right, it's it's people becoming famous because of being in this commercials. Yeah. And then there's famous people that go into the you know, it's like that's the dynamic and, you know, every creative person wants to put a famous person in a commercial. So that's fun.

Laura Smith: 06:27

Okay. Yeah. Enough about us. Enough about our lives. Right?

Laura Smith: 06:29

So I'm super excited for today's guest because I know him well for many many years. He has spent more than twenty years in marketing, having overseen countless creative campaigns in agencies of all sizes. Pulling from his experience in the agency side, Will started his own consultancy called Idealcicle X, the first advertising SaaS platform designed specifically for virtual idea generation. The platform brings together creative talent from all over to collaborate and inspire ideas, transforming the way advertising agencies work with freelance creative talent. So please welcome Will Burns, founder and CEO of Ideacicle.

Laura Smith: 07:05

Welcome, Will.

Will Burns: 07:06

Thank you very much for having me. It's good to see you again.

Laura Smith: 07:09

Yes. We're excited.

Brian Rowley: 07:10

Yeah. Welcome, Will. We're we're we're very excited to have you here. And I would say, I I I mean, I think this is such an interesting topic. I think let's just jump right in.

Brian Rowley: 07:19

And I would say, one of the things that I think is probably important to our audience is from your perspective, when you sort of look at the creative model, which parts of it do you think brands are struggling with? Is it the way ideas actually get generated, evaluated, sold, executed? Where are you seeing some of the biggest struggles in the actual creative model itself?

Will Burns: 07:46

Yeah, I think to answer that question, you kind of have to step back and look at how the industry has changed because in the last twenty years or so, in house agencies have become dominant. I think it's somewhere around 90% of all corporate America has some form of in house agencies, some form of in house agency. And what that has done and in fact oddly enough, it's why one of our biggest customers, our in house agencies at Ideasigle X is insular thinking. And this is because if you think about an ad agency, you've got creative teams working on all kinds of different brands, sometimes multiple brands per day. And so it's always staying fresh.

Will Burns: 08:33

But when you're working at an in house agency, you're only working on one brand all the time. And that can be good because you get richer understanding of the brand. You probably know its history better than any ad agency does. But you also get caught in traps, creative traps, where it's basically insular thinking. You're stuck in ways of thinking that are hard to break out of.

Will Burns: 08:59

And so often these in house agencies will call us just to get a dose of outside perspective thrown at them and we'll come back to them with ten, twelve different ideas, some of which might be completely idiotic for them and only they would know why And that's the good part of being in an in house agency, but some of them will be sort of mind bending for them. It's like, oh my God, I never thought about that because they're so kind of stuck in the inertia of their brand and creative ways.

Brian Rowley: 09:31

Yeah, I think that's a really good point because I know that we see it all the time. And Laura, you and I have this conversation, whether it's not necessarily always about creative, but just in general, like our internal teams get so focused on what we know and how we speak to it. And we always are challenging ourselves to be able to say, but is that how our audiences understand it and interpret it? So I do think it's a really powerful thing to be able to say that, you know what, like, we need someone outside to look at this to be able to give us a better perspective or a different perspective, one that we might not have thought of.

Laura Smith: 10:06

Yeah. We always say like, we're talking to ourselves. Yeah. Like, you know, we like, we understand us, but like, you know, and that's again, just obviously, you know, we using Will Your Team was the reason for that. It was like, we need someone to come in and think differently who has no idea what BrightSign who BrightSign is and what we do.

Laura Smith: 10:22

And and it's hard to understand our business. And so it's like, but we needed that, like, fresh thinking because we're not getting it from internally, and it was just a different approach to try out. So it makes complete sense that why people look to the outside. But Will, like, do you, like, it's right now, like, I know I I mentioned at the beginning about, like, creating a TV commercial, and it took take so long just for, like, you know, 10 lines of a script. It's insane.

Laura Smith: 10:48

But now, like, people don't like, people are looking for faster, more everything. Right? No one has the patience for like a long process and all that. Do you think that's making people less creative because the pressure's on to do things quicker?

Will Burns: 11:04

That's a good question. I have sort of two answers to that. One, I think it makes you more creative because you have to be. You have to find a solution more quickly. But it could make you less creative because you're not given enough time to actually think through the entire problem.

Will Burns: 11:23

So it depends on how you look at it, I guess.

Laura Smith: 11:26

Yeah. Because like your process though working with your team is pretty fast.

Brian Rowley: 11:29

Yeah. Very fast.

Will Burns: 11:30

It's fast. But you notice, you remember we didn't come in with three ideas and try to shove one down your throat as the recommendation. We came in with 10 or 12 and we sat back and let you consume them and debate them and talk about them. And I find that that can be quite therapeutic for a client when they all, and not necessarily you guys, but I've seen in the past where especially with brand ideas, taglines, things like that, like all the clients in the committee who are approving it, they all think they know the brand really, really well. But once they have to make a decision and they're looking at 10 or 12 different taglines, now they actually have to put a point on what they are and what they are not.

Will Burns: 12:15

It's almost like a sculptor getting rid of the parts that aren't the horse in order to have a sculpture of a horse. Like when you have 10 or 12 taglines in front of you, some people might say, oh my God, we'd never do that, that and that, but we might just, this is kind of interesting over here, I never thought of our brand that way. And then somebody else says, well, I can't believe you think of our brand that way. And now all of a sudden you have this very constructive conversation that happens between them that becomes therapeutic and sharpens all of their focus on what the brand really is.

Brian Rowley: 12:50

Yeah, I actually through the process that we went through, and for those of you listening, we actually just recently worked with Will and his team on a campaign that we actually brought to life. And it was the first time, Will, to be honest with you, I was a little hesitant coming into this because I was, you know, as we looked at it, you know, we're all very used to the overall approach of, you know, okay, you meet with the agency, you brief them, you sit down, you have this conversation, right? Like, and I mean, we did that, but it's all people that you're very familiar with for the most part, right? There are people that you've been working with and that. So the only familiar face to us when we started this conversation was you, because we sat down, we gave you sort of a brief of where we're going, but then you brought in a bunch of other individuals who were doing a lot of the gathering of information and understanding the brand and doing all that stuff.

Brian Rowley: 13:38

So it was at first a little bit of an uneasy process because it was unfamiliar. But then as we started to get through it, the thing that was really interesting to me was some of the questions that were coming up because the things that we thought were like as clear as can be in terms of what we've already been delivering, were the areas where people were like, wait, what do you mean exactly by that? And so it challenged us as well to see like, what are we working on and how is that actually resonating to folks that don't necessarily know the brand. I don't know about you, Laura, but I mean I mean, obviously, at the end, we got very comfortable with the process. But at the beginning, I would say it was a little bit, of an unknown.

Laura Smith: 14:18

Yeah. And I think it's like going back to what you were saying at the beginning, Will, about like, you know, it's insular and you're just kind of like in your own world. Like, this came up because Brian and I were at a conference last fall, and it was like listening to big brands and talking about their campaigns. And we were like, these these CMOs were basically presenting. We're like, we just need one of those moments, basically.

Laura Smith: 14:39

And ironically, moment is the word I'm using because that's part of the campaign. But it was like, we need one of those moments. And I'm like, but we don't need to go to like big agency and spend all this money. And that's kind of where I'm gonna go with this because I'm curious where your head's at. But like, we don't have the budget to go to big agency.

Laura Smith: 14:52

We don't need to go through a six month process. Like, you know, and so you came to mind because I'm like, well, we'll just cut this thing that, like, seems interesting. We've never used them. Like, I don't know. I have friends have used them, worked with them.

Laura Smith: 15:02

So it's like, well, we need we need someone to help us create that moment. And it was I was like, okay with not knowing how it all worked. I was like, let's just try it because I know it's not gonna be a bazillion dollars. And it's Will and a, know, group of people that I've probably worked with in the past to some degree. And I felt like it was a risk worth taking.

Laura Smith: 15:19

Right, Brian? We were like, okay. Like, we're it's a risk risk worth taking, and it was a new way to think about the creative process in the world that we live in today, which is very different than the world was when I was in big, you know, advertising agency. So that said, like, where's your head at? Or how do you think about those big you come from all these big agencies.

Laura Smith: 15:37

And so, like, how do you think about your business or the way in which your your teams do work versus the way the big agencies probably are still doing work?

Will Burns: 15:47

Yeah. Well, there's a lot there. I think the reason that I started Ideasickle in the first place was because at that point I had been at Wieden and Kennedy, Goodby, Arnold, Mullen and a couple of other creative agencies. And I tell you that only because I met these genius creative people along the way. These people that who were very creative not in two weeks or three weeks but in ten seconds.

Will Burns: 16:15

You know, you give them a potent brief and if it inspires them, they're rattling off ideas right there on the spot, almost like an improv comedian. And so I kind of went through my inventory of creatives that I really, really enjoyed working with for that reason and creatives who can leave their ego at the door because my vision for this was we don't need to have brainstorms inside a building, which I did a million of when I was the director of business development at Arnold, we don't need to do that anymore. The technology allows us to bring anybody together to come up with ideas and brainstorm. And not only that, if you think about a brainstorm at an agency, it happens on a Tuesday between two and 03:00. Creativity doesn't work that way.

Will Burns: 17:09

You can't put a gun to the head of creativity and say create. What you can do though is inspire, in my case, I've created a platform where I can bring any four people I want. I've got about 40 experts that I've pre recruited and they're all ready, they're all teed up ten ninety nine relationships with Idea Cycle. And I can put any four together and I know them. So I know what they're good at and what perspectives they bring and I can kind of get Bill Belichicki in with how I feel the team so that I don't have all the same kind of person working on it.

Will Burns: 17:45

They're all very different and different genders, different worldviews, different talents even to some degree. But then when you put them all together and you have a potent brief, they all can work independently and then jump in when they have an idea and when they post that idea, the rest of the team gets an email saying, hey, Will just posted an idea called blah blah blah, click here to make it even better. Like the whole vibe of the thing is nothing's ever done until the presentation. So if you post an idea, the expectation is that the rest of the team is gonna jump on it and they might poo poo it but they're generally very polite to each other. Actually the worst thing that can happen is if you post something and nobody posts anything underneath it, that basically means there's nothing there.

Will Burns: 18:35

But if you post something and everybody's kind of jumping in on it, you know you just touched a vibe because now everyone brings their different perspectives to your original idea and it takes a whole new life. And in one session, in three or four days, we could have 40 or 50 different idea threads all nicely organized on the platform I built. And so then it becomes on me to go through it. And to your point, like you only knew me, but I think what I've figured out through this process since 2010 when I started this, is that my superpower is knowing a good idea when I see one. And so what I can do is go through all those ideas, get it down to 15 or so that I think are really, really great that I'm excited to write up.

Will Burns: 19:23

And that's kind of my evaluation criteria is if I can't wait to write it into a slide to present to you, then that means it's a really good idea. And so I'll throw out 15 to the team and say, hey, which ones are the weakest ones? Can we get this down to 11 or 12? And so it's an iterative process with the team in that sense but then I'll go write up the ones that I think or the team thinks are the best, present them to you and then sit back. And by the way, I don't wanna forget to say this because I think it's really super interesting.

Will Burns: 19:57

When a traditional agency, the way they make money is time of staff, typically. So they're getting a monthly retainer and when there's a creative presentation, the client doesn't care if they have to send the team back for another round of ideas because it's not gonna cost them any more money. So they're kind of, you know, in that first presentation, they might be leaning back a little bit and they might see a winning idea but it's no skin off their back to send the team away to come up with more ideas in case they might beat it. Whereas with Ideas that collects, the client knows that they have two rounds and so what are they doing? They're leaning in, they're looking for what to buy, not what to kill.

Will Burns: 20:42

It's a very different process. And so again, it kind of gets to the sort of therapeutic benefit of what could my brand be? Even if it's a promotional idea, something as small as we need a promotional hook for retail for back to school, something like that, seeing all these different ideas from all these different brilliant people gets them excited because they're like, oh, it's like Christmas morning. And the gifts are all these ideas that they never thought of before and it gets them jazzed. And oftentimes, and I'm sure this happened with you guys with our process, the client makes the idea even better because they know that we're just kind of going in and out over a couple of weeks, but you've been there for a long time.

Will Burns: 21:25

Hopefully some of the ideas will inspire even better ideas in the clients. And we're all for that. I mean, that's what creativity is. It's elastic, it's shareable, it's communal in a sense with the way that we've constructed it. So I don't even remember your question, but I hope I answered it.

Brian Rowley: 21:45

No, you touched on a couple of really interesting points though, because I would say that one of the things that's actually, when you look at the model as it relates to like whether someone's retainer or someone's looking to kill something versus you know, to purchase something. I would actually say even some of the talent that sits in the room like I've been in situations where I've sat down and someone's, you know, super excited about something and I'm like, that's just so boring. Like what like, seriously, how much time did that take? I mean, so there are people that sit in those creative roles that are, to be honest, in some of the bigger agencies, they're just checking the boxes, right? Like we delivered this to the client.

Brian Rowley: 22:25

And it's like, it looks very similar to something that's been done in the past. I mean, we're very fortunate in the work that we have done. I mean, our producer Joey here is creative for us on a lot of different things. And I mean, talk about creative mind. I mean, not just because he's sitting here, but I mean, this guy is like, he does an amazing job for us.

Brian Rowley: 22:44

And he also understands us, right? So he also knows like what we're doing. So there's good and bad in both of the equations. But I think one of the things Will that we talk about is, you talk about pairing these creatives together and a bunch of talent like, does it have you seen different results from creatives who have never worked together versus ones that have worked or continue to work together? Because I do think that that also challenges one another.

Brian Rowley: 23:10

I'm just curious your thoughts on that.

Will Burns: 23:12

Yeah, in the beginning, a few of them may have known each other, but most of them didn't because I'm pulling them from my very different agencies past from different cities and they're all over the country. As they've, it's been sixteen years now, so a lot of them have been there since the beginning And they've gotten to know each other through the virtual process and they kind of gotten to know the kinds of ideas they come up with. But I honestly, here's a fun fact. One of the female experts, and I think it's significant that it was a female, said she loved the ideastical process because everyone was reduced to a typeface. And I think that's interesting because it strips away all the icky human judgy stuff that happens when you're in a room that you may not even know is happening.

Will Burns: 24:08

It's unconscious stuff. But when you're reduced to a typeface and yeah, there's a little profile picture and you can see that it's a woman or you can see it's a man or whatever, but the focus is all on the content. It's all about the idea. And so the judgment is in the right place. It's all about getting to a better creative idea.

Will Burns: 24:29

It's not about posturing. It's not about looking good in front of your boss. Even like if you think about a typical brainstorm, there's always the loud guy who thinks he's the smartest guy in the room and is not. And then there's the quiet person who probably is the smartest person in the room, but it's not saying anything. But when they're protected in a way, like if you think about social media, one of the big problems with social media, conventionally speaking, is that people feel empowered to say anything because they're not in front of the people.

Will Burns: 25:00

You know what I mean? So they say things they would never say to someone's face. But that actually works in our favor with creativity because they're bolder. They're more likely to say something that they might not have said in a room. But if they say it online, sort of invisible in a sense or they feel protected.

Will Burns: 25:19

And so we get bolder thinking thrown at at the wall.

Laura Smith: 25:25

Yeah. That makes complete sense to me. But do you think though because a lot of these people that you have come from big agencies and they obviously left them for a reason. Right? I mean, that's, you know, I just think the agency world's so different now.

Laura Smith: 25:37

So, like, what what are they like, what what is their perspective and your perspective on, this versus being in the big agency? Is it like, are people poo pooing the big agency or just like, no, this works for me better now and where I am in my life or my career path and all that? Like because people are in big agencies still. People are still doing this. People are still making progressive insurance commercials in Arnold's forty five thousand years later.

Laura Smith: 25:59

So what is your team as as creatives? Like, what are they saying about the differences? Is it autonomy, freedom?

Will Burns: 26:08

Yeah, it's a great question. I think with Ideasiglass, nobody is making their whole living working for me. They're making their living doing traditional freelance with the big agencies and they love Ideasiglecs because they don't have to travel, they don't have to stay in a hotel and miss their family. If it's like a big pitch in New York, they got to be there for a couple of weeks. With Ideasiglecs, they can do it virtually from anywhere.

Will Burns: 26:37

And to them, it's like a video game. In fact, Ernie Shank, who's one of my favorite experts, great storyteller, brilliant writer, one of the best of all time, He said, it's like an idea video game to him. And so they have fun doing it. And you might ask, well, are you sure they're not working on other stuff while they're working on your stuff? To which I say, I don't care.

Will Burns: 27:01

I don't care if they're working on something else during the day because the way Ideasickle X works is if I can get them infected with a brilliant brief where then they can't stop thinking about it. And I kind of want them to engage with life because that's where creativity happens. Ideas don't happen sitting behind a desk, they happen when you're engaging with the world. So if they are working on say a progressive TV spot for Arnold, that work might trigger an idea that they were briefed on yesterday for Ideasickle X and all they have to do is pull out their phone, bam, then everybody gets it and everybody can start building on it. So it's like taking the creative layer of these people and that's all I need.

Will Burns: 27:46

I don't need their bodies, I don't need them to be present at all times, I don't care about time sheets, all I care about is participation and I already know they're brilliant. So I know that they're gonna come up with great ideas. So hopefully that helps. But again, nobody is making their whole living with us, they're doing both for sure if they're a professional freelance.

Brian Rowley: 28:10

Yeah, I think Laura, is interesting because it falls on like we're starting to see, we had not too long ago, the fractional CMO role that came in, right? Like people who insert themselves into a situation or organization for a period of time, very similar in this case, right? Like it's taking that approach of just, small doses of impactful moments, right? You know, that you're pulling the right people in who you know, will deliver great results, and then they might be gone for a period of time. But that's okay.

Brian Rowley: 28:43

That's what this is all about. Well, where should AI fit into this creative process? Like where does it risk making ideas more predictable or interchangeable? Like how do you see that as an overall part of the process?

Will Burns: 28:58

To me, creativity is the one territory that AI I don't think will ever be able to overtake humans. And that's just my personal belief, I could be proven wrong. But what I believe, that doesn't mean that I poo poo AI at all, because I think AI can be an incredibly useful tool to inspire ideas in humans. And in fact, I invented this little app called IXSPARK and it uses AI to come up with thought starters on any kind of brief that may not be the greatest ideas but I encourage the app or the LLM to hallucinate. Like it's got a sober, it's got a microdose and it's got a tripping setting.

Will Burns: 29:42

So it actually encourages it to hallucinate. So you get these wacky dots connected that are probably wrong but the point is not that it comes up with great ideas, the point is that it could inspire you to come up with great ideas. And I've embedded that app in the IdeaCircle X model so that the teams when they're working, if they're stuck or they can't think anything, they just click a button and they can engage with this Spark character to come up with thought starters and see where that leads them. But the bigger question to me with AI is production, it's democratizing production. I've got, as you know very well, so I've got this one art director who's incredibly skilled at AI video production to the point where, and we stumbled on this two years ago, where a client told us what their production budget was gonna be.

Will Burns: 30:36

And it was so small that we were all like, we just presented TV campaigns. There's no way we could do this for that amount of money. But then this art director was like, you know what, I've been doing a lot of AI stuff, let's try it with AI. And we did and it was wildly successful. And so then it became part of our offering.

Will Burns: 30:57

Now we can do campaigns with the expectation that it's gonna be executed using AI. And what we can do, I've got a great producer who helps me brief the team. So when the team works on an assignment, we know it's gonna be AI execution and there are limitations to what you can do in AI video production. So we brief the team right up front and tell them, here are the parameters, here are the things to watch out for, here are the things not to do. And so then they come up with ideas that can be produced using AI and that's exactly what we did in your case.

Laura Smith: 31:34

Yeah. Which was the production side of it. I mean, like, when we saw it, Brian and I were like, okay. This feels like it was not no AI. I mean, yeah.

Laura Smith: 31:41

If we, like, peel back the layers because we're also used to seeing AI or, like, calling, you know, things out, but it's like I think the thing that we said this recently, Brian, maybe on a podcast, maybe just in a conversation, but it's like, I don't care that it's using AI. Like for us, like for it doesn't matter if someone says, oh, that's AI. Oh, I don't care. It it told a story and told a story that we loved on a script in production in the video creation that was like, that's all that mattered. And our people out there saying, oh, they're using AI.

Laura Smith: 32:10

Like, I don't think it matters. Everyone's using AI to some degree. And to your point, production makes sense. There was efficiencies there, you know, time and money wise that I feel like that just and we're in a world where people are expecting that.

Brian Rowley: 32:23

It was the best AI I've ever seen too. I mean, honestly, in in the campaigns that or or work that we have done with AI, this I would challenge anyone to try to figure out that it was used using AI as the way that it was actually created. Just it was amazing.

Will Burns: 32:42

And it does take hundreds of hours of work to Like you saw the finished thing but there were probably maybe a thousand clips that didn't work to get to the ones that did because it just doesn't listen. Like you prompt it, you tell it this and then all of a sudden it adds an umbrella. Like why the hell do you add an umbrella? I didn't ask you to do that. But there are ways to do it and this guy knows how to do that.

Will Burns: 33:11

And I think the product that we came out with for you guys was outstanding.

Brian Rowley: 33:17

Yeah, I think when you look at the hundreds of hours compared to creating a production set, right, doing all the you know, like, I mean, at the times, can remember having to go get permitting and all that stuff to be able to pull into a spot and set up the shoot. And then you know, you're you're dealing with weather, whether that's going to cooperate or not, you've only got so many hours sunlight that you can deal with, and you've got to get this shot in order to be able to like, I mean, all of that stuff. So like, when you say a hundred hours, like when you look at that compared to the amount of time it takes to actually do a full production of something like that, that ends up being, a thirty, forty five second clip, Like it's a lot, there's a lot of time there And

Will Burns: 34:00

also think about, and the agencies are gonna hate me for saying this, but think about what this does to their model, because everything you just described about a traditional shoot is the time of staff that they bill. And if AI can squash that, I mean, presented a campaign, I can't talk about it yet, but we presented a campaign that would have cost about $3,000,000 to produce in traditional ways, mostly because there were locations all over the world. So that alone would escalated the bill. But using AI, we did the whole thing, the whole thirty second video for under a $100,000.

Laura Smith: 34:40

Yeah. I think it just shows that the model is changing. And really that's, you know, hitting home to the whole conversation because it doesn't need to be and again, those big agencies are still in business, so they're doing something. And there are brands that wanna work that way and pay those retainers and all of that. So it's not to say it's gone, but like just being seeing my network and seeing following these agencies and things like it, you just see it shifting, and there's other ways to do great work.

Laura Smith: 35:07

But I have a question, like, for like, you deal with a lot of brands and a lot of clients, you know, and so you're presenting all these ideas to them. Do you think, like, there's a need for a change in how companies and brands challenge and select ideas? Are you seeing like an evolution there? Are you seeing like the same mistakes happening with clients? Like what's what's the trend being on that side versus our side?

Will Burns: 35:31

Yeah. I I think the tolerance for a good idea is lower than ever. And the reason I say that is because we're in a content generation now. Every brand is coming out, like if you go back twenty five years ago, they might have three TV spots, four print ads, three out of home and a few radio spots and that's it, that's the whole campaign. Now there might be hundreds of videos, there might be hundreds of images, slash print ad type objects.

Will Burns: 36:02

And so the client can't approve great for a 100 videos in a year. And so the tolerance for great creativity, I think lowers because the value, at least the perceived value of having a steady stream of content is greater than the level of creativity. So it's just a volume play. I love it when a client like you guys, you're a great example. You basically needed content, but you wanted it to be great.

Will Burns: 36:38

That's to me, that could be the new silver bullet for brands going forward. That let's put the brakes on just mass amounts of content. And let's instead do really great content and run it everywhere. I hope that's where it ends up going. We'll see.

Brian Rowley: 36:59

Do you think well on that same topic though, like so great content, good content. Do you think the safest ideas are still winning?

Will Burns: 37:08

I don't have any data to support this, but no. I mean, I think the riskier the idea, the more provocative it is, the more likely it will be to stand out number one and be seen at all. But then, I mean, think about the power your consumer has, they can share it. You can't share a TV spot on TV. You could maybe tell somebody about it, but that's the next day it's unlikely to happen.

Will Burns: 37:32

But if I'm inspired by some provocative content and it really speaks to me, I may share that and then all of a sudden your media buy just went exponential.

Laura Smith: 37:43

But like some clients aren't willing to take risks. We know that. Like we were like

Will Burns: 37:46

We're not.

Laura Smith: 37:47

We were like Right, right, right. I was When we came into you, we were like, we want Make us uncomfortable. And you guys made us very uncomfortable with some of those ideas. So we were like, that's still far out. And we and we narrowed it in on one that is a little more comfortable than the other one we were gonna go with.

Laura Smith: 38:03

Like so, like so I still feel like clients must, you know, we're afraid to take risks. So you still must face that with people when you guys like really love a really cool, crazy idea, but the client's like, not going there.

Will Burns: 38:15

Well, I I think the difference is it's a little unfair because if they're coming to me, they've already decided they want something great. And so I tend to get clients that are looking for great creative ideas. They're not looking for milk toast and go into ideasickle, you know what I mean?

Brian Rowley: 38:31

Yeah, but I think Laura, even in our example, I think we even though we weren't like, you know, like the riskiest we could be, we're we're we're definitely not as safe as we traditionally have been.

Laura Smith: 38:45

Right. Then we went in saying we don't want, you know, we don't wanna wanna see a player anywhere. But yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Okay.

Laura Smith: 38:52

So, Will, before we're gonna let you go, we are going to do one more activity and you are gonna enter the hot seat. To the spotlight. Grab a chair, share your inside. Will Burns, oh, he'll burn alright. Because right now, we're turning up the heat.

Laura Smith: 39:16

Hot seat.

Will Burns: 39:19

Speaking of AI.

Laura Smith: 39:23

Joey Joe. He knows his stuff. We've had many people ask if they could take their clips and use them somewhere else because they're always so fun. And we never hear them first. So Joey always surprises us.

Laura Smith: 39:34

That's great. Okay. So we wanna hear your biggest pet peeve in the creative process. Is it the endless rounds of email feedback? Is it that the client doesn't wanna get in a call?

Laura Smith: 39:44

They wanna just email, not talk about it? Is it that a client expects a campaign to go viral? Like what is that big pet peeve that you still deal with in the process?

Will Burns: 39:55

Yeah, I think it's more internal than with clients. To me, it's creative arrogance. Like it doesn't happen often, but it does happen where one of my creators will be like a dog with a bone on an idea and not want to make the changes that the client's suggesting, which I strategically agree with for whatever reason. And so then I have to go do a sideline with them and say, you're too dug in on this and they're bringing up really good points and I think you gotta lighten up, it's still gonna be a great spot. The overall concept is protected.

Will Burns: 40:31

It's just this one little thing. And so it's a pet peeve, it's just an annoyance, but it's part of the process because at the same time, I want these people to defend their work. I want them to dig their heels in. So it's just kind of the nature of the business just something I got to deal with.

Brian Rowley: 40:49

But I think that's actually a really good one because I know sitting from the and I've spent more time on as the client and obviously, I've never been in an agency world or doing anything like that. But there is nothing worse than someone who digs in to that degree. And it's not what the client wants. There's just nothing worse than that and trying to get past that. You, I mean, at the end of the day, the client's the client.

Brian Rowley: 41:16

And at the same time, I also respect the fact that the creative is the creative, right? Like someone has a thought process. And that's why I think, you know, some of the conversations that you have in that process are so critical and to be honest with each other, but like, we've had moments where we've just had to say, you know what, no, you're not understanding. Like, that's not what we're going for. Like, I appreciate your creativity here, but that's not what I was trying to get to.

Brian Rowley: 41:41

So I try

Will Burns: 41:42

to protect you guys from that. I try to protect the client from those conversations. I mean, sometimes it's gonna happen, but I just try to trust my gut as a marketer. I try to put myself in the client's shoes so that I understand hopefully almost as well as they do why they're asking for this change. And then I can bring it to the creative in an informed way, not in a light way.

Laura Smith: 42:05

Yeah. I think it's the and we didn't see that at all with your team. Felt like, you know, there was like no egos, and that's a big part of why I didn't love the big agency world was a lot of those egos. So it's good that that's where you're like checking those the door, but you still have the passion. I'm going to call it passion.

Laura Smith: 42:19

Mean, someone's passionate about something, and so I respect that. But yes, in the end, it's like, no, you got to move on. So yeah, so that's interesting. And I think it's great that you do protect the client because there's no time We don't have time for that, right? Like you, that's just where we just have to move on.

Will Burns: 42:36

I don't have Yeah, time for it

Brian Rowley: 42:38

you have

Laura Smith: 42:38

to make time in your job. All right, well, you, Will. This has been super fun to have you on seeing you again, bringing people back from the network for many years ago. So we appreciate your time and joining us.

Will Burns: 42:51

I really enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun.

Brian Rowley: 42:53

Yeah, Will, thanks so much for being here. It was awesome. So Laura, this is really interesting. This conversation actually does turn 180 degrees from some of the other conversations where we've had about people needing to be in a room, looking at each other, sitting side by side in order for that creative process to work. And in this particular case, we're learning just the opposite.

Brian Rowley: 43:18

And I think the model is an interesting one. I think that, you know, I think a lot of folks have been challenged by, you know, bringing and again, I've had really good experiences both with smaller agencies, larger agencies, we've done some in house stuff. But I think, you know, from a corporate side, I think there's a lot of pressure to pull some of those resources in house. But I think some of what Will mentioned in regards to sort of that, you know, getting stuck, right, with in house and needing some of that external view in order to progress an idea or a thought is really important for some of these smaller businesses. So I think, you know, again, this was a great experience for us working with Will and his team.

Brian Rowley: 44:01

And I would encourage folks that are out there that are looking for something different and trying something a little bit different to engage with them. But, you know, overall, I think, you know, there there's a lot to be learned here, and I think it was a a great conversation.

Laura Smith: 44:16

Yeah. I think the biggest thing is you can go get big creative talent, like really great creative thinkers in a way that's a lot more affordable and attainable, that that just makes complete sense because you're not going you know, you know that the the the arsenal of people he has are people that are have done amazing award winning work, and you can get their thinking for, you know, in a very easy way. It was a very easy process, so I 100% agree. Well, thank you everyone for listening. And most importantly, if you like what you heard today, be sure to follow us.

Laura Smith: 44:47

And if you wanna hear more from Will Burns, you can find him on LinkedIn.