Let's Talk Disability Episode 6

Episode 6 of Let's Talk Disability is a conversation between host, Professor Jackie Carter, EDI Academic Lead for Disability, Jon Ashley, Director of Estates Support and Beth Micakovic, Executive Director of Faculty Ops (Biology, Medicine and Health)

Jackie, Jon and Beth discuss the estate at the University of Manchester and the efforts that are being taken to make it more accessible alongside hidden disabilities and experiences of cancer.

If you require a subtitled version of this podcast please go to https://youtu.be/XDT612m77UI

If you do not see a transcript please contact us at [e-mail] and we will ensure you receive one.

There is a reference in this episode to a blog by Carsten Timmerman.  You can find this at Measuring Quality of Life in Cancer Treatment: A Historical Focus – Cancer Prevention and Screening Blog (qmul.ac.uk)

Creators & Guests

Host

Professor Jackie Carter

Academic EDI Lead for Disability, member of the Shaw Trust Power 100 for 2023. Author of Work Placements, Internships & Applied Social Research. Prof of Statistical Literacy. FaCSS, NTF. 1-in-20 Women in Data. Late Bloomer. @GM4Women

Guest

Beth Micakovic

Executive Director of Faculty Ops (Biology, Medicine and Health)

JC

Producer

Joe Cosby

Guest

Jon Ashley

Director of Estates Support at The University of Manchester

What is Let's Talk Disability?

We are proud to announce the launch of a new series of in conversation pieces hosted by the Directorate of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion (EDI). ‘Let’s talk’ encourages members of our diverse University community to have an open and honest discussion about topics right across EDI.

Banji Adewumi, Director of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion said “Our ‘Let’s talk’ series aims to prompt further conversations to help overcome many of the barriers that colleagues face in the workplace. I invite you to get involved in the discussion and learn more about our diverse University community’s lived experience of belonging.”

The series will include blogs, videos, podcasts, recommended reading and more to cover a range of topics spanning all our Equality groups.

Let’s Talk Disability Ep. 6 – Transcript

0:00:00.000 - 0:01:11.400
[MUSIC]

0:00:10.160,0:00:16.040
JACKIE: Hello, my name is Jackie Carter. I'm the EDI Disability Academic Lead at the University of Manchester and I've set up a series of in conversation pieces called Let's Talk Disability. The reason for this is that I want people who have a disability and who work and study at the University of Manchester to have opportunity to share what their lived experience, everyday experience is with somebody in a position of influence, a senior leader at the University. So each episode will feature two guests and each of those guests will have a conversation about what it means to have a disability at the University of Manchester and at the end of the conversation each will commit to one action, we're calling them "one things", where they will take away something from the conversation that they've had and do something with it. I hope you enjoy listening and will make, of course, the transcripts available for everybody. Thank you.

0:01:11.400,0:01:17.960
[MUSIC]

0:01:19.000 - 0:02:24.809
So, let's make a start! So we're here. I'm here in the lovely recording studio with my two guests who I'm going to ask to introduce themselves today. And we're here for episode six of the Let's Talk Disability series and just to say, I have started describing myself after a talk I heard last week at the University of Manchester as deaf, dizzy and disabled.

And I'm wearing, like you're wearing Beth, my green and yellow sunflower lanyard today. And I decided to do that because I think there's lack of understanding about invisible
disabilities. So, I start to use that sort of catchy phrase to let people know that, you know, just because they see me doesn't mean that they understand what I'm experiencing. So, these conversations, as you both know, are all about talking about the lived experience of disability as you choose to describe it.

For our staff and students at the University of Manchester. So I'm going to start, please,
by handing over to you, Beth, to say hi to the listeners and say what your role is and who
you are and why you're here.

0:02:24.809 - 0:03:22.160
BETH: Okay, thanks Jackie. And it's amazing to be invited to to be part of this amazing series. So my name is Beth Micakovic and I am the director of Faculty Operations here within the Faculty of Biology, Medicine & Health at Manchester. Jackie and I have worked together on on a number of projects and initiatives which have largely been in the EDI space and in particular more recently thinking about how we make sure that we embed EDI principles in our approaches, in our approach to estates. And that's
really one of the reasons why I'm really, really so pleased that I'll be getting to the opportunity to talk to Jon today.

But I've also opened up to Jackie previously about my own what I call my own invisible disability, I am a cancer survivor. I have had breast cancer in the past, but I also have anxiety and I live daily with anxiety. And so those are the two main aspects which I think today it would be really good to unpack.

0:03:22.160 - 0:03:28.265
JACKIE: Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing that. And Jon, over to you. If you can also do the same, introduce yourself.

0:03:28.265 - 0:04:24.800
JON: I'm Jon Ashley. I'm an assistant director of estates and head of estate support. And obviously, you know, when we talk about the estate, we're talking about how people use it and, you know, how they access that and how easy and what difference that might make to their life. I mean, in terms of my responsibility, I manage people. So I've got about 150 staff of my own. So I need to look after them and look after their interests. We've got a community within estates of 1100 people. Then obviously you've got the wider community on the whole estate of staff and students. So what we do within estates, you know, has an impact whether passive or proactive.

And I think, you know, one of the things my approach and you know, one of the things that I've learned is do the research, listen, you know, find out more about things that you might not really know about so you can make a difference and change the way that you do your work. So, you know, that's one reason I'm here today.

0:04:24.800 - 0:05:04.219
JACKIE: Brilliant. Thank you so much, John. And again, I just want to say on this recording what a huge advocate you are and how willing you are to listen. And you are a
member of many of the groups, the inclusion groups and accessibility groups. So we really appreciate, you know, not just having an interest in this area, but to go from having the interest to enacting that. And again, that's what these recordings are about. It's about moving to action. So, over to you, I think Beth. I mean the conversation is between you and Jon predominantly, and I'll just sort of chip in as and when I hear something that
I'd like to extract a little bit more on.

0:05:04.219 - 0:05:07.008
BETH: Okay, would you like me to recount my own experience?

0:05:07.040,0:05:09.200
JACKIE: That would be a great place to start. Yes please.

0:05:09.200 - 0:08:43.160
BETH: So I was diagnosed with breast cancer at the age of 31. 19 days, actually, before my daughter had turned one. So she was still a young baby and obviously it wasn't long after, I'd had her. And although the experience in and of itself wasn't surprising because of my family history, to have had it, that young at that time did come as something of a shock.

But I mean, it's been and it was an incredible journey in many respects. I have learned an awful lot fundamentally about myself through going through that process and the challenges. And one of the things that I say to people when I talk about the experience is that it teaches you an awful lot around your level of own self resilience. And it's that actually which has enabled me to carry that through into my professional career and understanding the dynamic around what's happened with that illness and how it's fed
both my ambition. It's fed my impatience. But it's also fed my sense of resilience within
within my working life. My day to day life has been really, really important. And in particular, when you're living at the same time with anxieties I have done, it's been my friends for as long as I can remember, but it has also been a positive experience in that aspect as well. And so there are, as I said, there have been a number of challenges and I think having it at such an early age, at that point, it wasn't really ever discussed, you know, the degree to which women at that age were getting breast cancer. I think it's become more prevalent now, actually. I mean, there have been a number of celebrity cases which I think have made it more profile. I think at the time when I was diagnosed, it was mainly Kylie Minogue. But again, the process of going through that and living through that and your journey and your personalised journey through it wasn't really discussed in any great detail. And so what I encountered was, to some degree, a lack of understanding or a lack of knowledge about how to support younger women going through cancer, younger women who are parents going through cancer, and also thinking about the consequences of some of the therapy that you go through as well and how that is that can have a unique impact on younger women, too.

So there's a lot that I have come out of reflecting of that experience about how as
a workplace as well, that we are very much a component of that therapeutic space for women and anyone really who goes through the cancer space, particularly as I was where I was determined to work through my cancer therapy, I took time off when I had my surgery. It was very, very important to me personally, professionally, as at the start of my career. But as a parent, to make sure that I had that normality, that I had that consistency, and I still had that drive to continue and to succeed and have that quality of life. And that has sustained me. But that also means that there is something around needing to support employers to know how to support people who are going through that as well. Yeah, but certainly I think in the constellation of thinking about quality of life, of thinking about therapy, that's a really, really key component.

0:08:43.160 - 0:09:15.120
JACKIE: Thank you, Beth, that resonates so deeply with me. And also if I may share as a breast cancer survivor, but not as young as you were when I had it. You mentioned the environment, the work environment. And John, I wondered if you wanted to say anything and perhaps before you do, I just want to make it clear, because I've come across colleagues who have also had cancer, who haven't known that having cancer makes means that they're categorized as disabled, from a legal point of view, I don't
know if you found that, you know, was that the case with you? Did you know?

0:09:15.120 - 0:10:43.240
BETH: That, I did. I did know that it was classed as a disability. But I will be honest and say that there is, for me, a level of imposter syndrome around it because it's not visible. And I now wear my lanyard, but it isn't, isn't evident that the experience that you're going
through is not something that is necessarily physically manifest. Obviously it is when you're going through the experience. You know, I lost my hair. I looked unwell, you know,
you have you take a number of medications which change your appearance quite drastically, but you're on an escalator in cancer treatment that actually is over and done with relatively quickly. And there's a transition point into what is termed, I suppose, recovery. But I think that there is an ambiguity around that because I felt that it's only in
that pathway. And I think, you know, talking to others who've been in that experience too, is only at that point that you actually reflect, my goodness, what have I been through?

And you start to process that and there is a level of support that is absolutely fundamental and needed in the aftermath of that diagnosis and having the treatment, which again, thinking about us as employers, just being alert to how do we support our colleagues who are going through that. And I think talking through the various experiences that people have is really critical to gaining that institutional understanding around it as well.

0:10:43.240 - 0:10:50.677
JACKIE: Thank you so much Beth. And may I ask, before I pass back to Jon, did you have post cancer fatigue? Because I certainly did.

0:10:50.677 - 0:11:07.520
BETH: Absolutely. Post cancer fatigue, brain fog was quite severe. Anxiety. My anxiety peaked quite, quite substantially during that time. But yes, I would say fatigue is something that was quite longstanding afterwards. Yes.

0:11:07.520 - 0:14:25.480
JON: Well, I was going to say, Beth, I mean, thanks very much for sharing that. You know, I mean, that's a challenging but amazing journey you've been on there. I mean, it does resonate from some of my own experiences with family and it was interesting really,
because preparing for this for this session, you know, there's a whole gamut, a whole spectrum of things to consider around disability. And in there it's obviously a hidden disability and it might not be categorized anywhere or by anybody.

And I think they're some of the really important things that we do need to pick up, you know, we talk about intersectionality, we talk about people who may even have a temporary debilitation and how we can make the estate better and more comfortable for people. So it's not just about handrails, it's not just about ramps, you know, it's not just about a teaching experience. No, it's about the whole environment. And one of the colleagues in EDI, put it the best way, really. That their whole life is set up around their accessibility and their experience. But when they come to work, you know, is there a barrier there immediately that prevents them from living the life that they want to live or that, you know, they expect to live?

So, you know, when we look at the estates, it's not just about those hard things. It's
about provision. You know, it could be about spaces for people, you know, what's the environment like in your office? What's it like in communal areas? What does the estate look like? You know, is it depressing? Is it enlivening? You know, can you relax? Can you change places? You know, can you go to different scenarios on campus that might, you know, help you, you know, particularly if you want some headspace? I think that's quite important, really. You know, you can imagine on an ordinary day, a lot of people are already fatigued by the time they get to work anyway, you know, particularly on public
transport or they've driven here.

So I think, you know, wider perspective and there's quite a lot of research and learning on it. I think probably from a student perspective. But again, students share the same requirements and same challenges that staff do. So I think it's about making a campus for everyone, really. And I think historically, I mean, obviously we've come on a journey as a university. You know, we have the North campus with UMIST. Then we've got this campus with Victoria University, some legacy buildings. So we've got very old buildings like John Owens and Samuel Alexander. And then we've got some sort of mid-fifties mid-sixties properties as well. But it's how we sort of retrofit and redesign those as a campus
develops. And even I think what we've had new builds there is probably some learning experiences, I think particularly around conversation more than anything. I mean, obviously budgets are always a demanding factor but I think the conversation to inform
how that spending takes place is probably the most important thing. And as you were saying before, Jackie, you know, I've been involved in a number of groups and the important thing is to find out more really, understand, understand where do we sit as a department? Where are the gaps in terms of our understanding and how do we sort of inform the university about the right strategies to take moving forward?

0:14:25.480 - 0:14:59.018
JACKIE: Right, that's a real eye opener, isn't it? So I'm going to bring this one back to you, Beth, because, you know, we have you sitting here representing one of the three faculties. We have, John, representing the estates and the complexity of dealing with limited resources and also prioritizing, you know, how can we talk to each other, including in this conversation, to really get a better handle on what needs to happen
to meet the needs of those staff with disabilities, including those with invisible disabilities? What would you say next?

0:14:59.018 - 0:16:25.472
BETH: I mean, I think first of all, I think one of the things which I think we are facing societally, but as an organization as well, is that is that blurring between the digital and physical spaces that we inhabit? And I think we underestimate in some respects, the interplay between those, particularly in terms of managing sort of neurodiverse conditions, even anxiety and mental health. You know, if you think about the level of stimulation that your digital environment provides you and the respite that you need to seek sometimes in your physical environment.

And so when we think about our estate strategy going forward, our infrastructure strategy going forward, it's really, really important to me that we bear those two things in mind simultaneously and we're starting to learn more about that interplay is really important. In terms of how we how we start to think strategically across across the whole organization is doing exactly what you're doing, Jon. It's joining the networks. It's getting the right voices in the projects at the right time from inception. And I think one of the things that I've I started to learn as well, you know, in being in this role is is seeing how projects evolve over the lifetime that they exist. Right. So there are very few short term projects, many of them are, you know, quite a lengthy at least a year, sometimes a couple of years in gestation. And so you might do an EIA at the beginning of that,

0:16:25.472 - 0:16:26.880
JACKIE: EIA being

0:16:26.880 - 0:16:41.920
BETH: sorry an equality impact assessment, but the scope may change throughout that time and say the continuous dialog with people like with you know, the amazing colleagues that we have on the networks I think is really critical as part
of that project development as well.

0:16:41.920 - 0:18:03.840
JON: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think it's not just about design and conversation. I think
we need to experiment a bit more as well, you know? So when it came to teaching spaces, we had an old traditional model or, you know, classroom style. So we just mixed it up a little bit and put flexible furniture in and stuff like that.

So I'm not saying that's the answer, but I'm saying if you just do stuff a little bit out of the box every now and again, see how it's received, and you can be a little bit more agile. And I think you're right, you know, the digital versus, you know, being in person sort of way of working or learning is all changing.

But again, you know, we've got this new sort of environment where people might work from home, they might prefer to come to work. Everyone's individual balance is different. And, you know, when we talk about disability, I think some people revert to the fact, well, people can work from home, but there's a whole sort of communal, societal sort of element to coming to work and enabling people to have the same experiences and choices that everyone else could.

But yeah, so it is about just making sure we've got the right information and the right discussions going, going into something that might take several years to build. And like you say go on that journey and maybe agile enough in between to make some subtle changes as well.

0:18:03.840 - 0:18:54.676
JACKIE: Can I pick up then on mainstreaming what you're talking about? Because, you know, we do have pockets of excellence around the university. I've just been in conversation with a colleague in the library and you know, the library's done some amazing things by way of making learning spaces accessible to all students and having quiet rooms, having rooms that they can go and work single on their own or in groups.

But how do we give them the 200-year-old nature of the university campus? How do we take good practice and scale it up where it doesn't yet exist? I mean, it seems to me that's a real challenge, not just in the physical space, actually in the digital space as well, to make, you know, digitally inclusive learning environments as well. So have you got any thoughts on broadening it out?

0:18:54.676 - 0:19:31.200
JON: I was just going to say there is a digital learning and digital equity group that are looking at strategic approach to accessibility, particularly around teaching. But again, you now, that needs to be balanced with staff experiences as well, you know, making sure staff have those same accessibility options as well.

But, you know, my view is you've just got to take it on balance. I think like Beth says, the way these things are evolving, you can sort of second guess some of it, but not all of it. But you need to be you need to be able to be flexible enough to make some changes. Just go along.

0:19:31.200 - 0:20:34.320
BETH: Yeah. And I think it's also important to distinguish between scaling up and replicating. So I think one of the things at Manchester that we are so fortunate to have is the scale of the estate all in one space, right? And so there is a, there's a huge opportunity to, to have a diversity of spaces across our estate. And for me, that's what it means about scaling. So that our estate is open to everyone. It should be open to everyone with a mixture of spaces that accommodate different ways of working, different preferences and how you work at any one point, depending on what sort of work you're doing. And so it's not necessarily about saying, well, we've got a quiet pod over here, so we need a quiet pod over there as well. It's actually signposting appropriately and having that knowledge open to say, well, if you want a quiet space, if we've got some brilliant garden area over here, you know, we've got some wellness areas, we've got quiet pods belong here and it is it really is that signposting as opposed to duplication of replication for me. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

0:20:34.320 - 0:21:00.200
JACKIE: Right. Is there anything happening in your faculty that you'd like to share with us something about? You've had some great speakers and I'm thinking about the the woman who I forget her name. The professor came from University of East Anglia, who's doing some amazing work. And how you. Yeah, how. How can we learn from elsewhere, is what I'm saying. It's not just about what we're doing here. It's how can we improve the offer to our disabled staff and students because of what we see elsewhere happening that's really good.

0:21:00.200 - 0:22:13.271
BETH: I mean, even as a disabled member of staff, as it would be identified. And that seminar for me was absolutely pivotal in transforming my understanding, particularly around physical disability. And as I came out of it, you know, I met with Hamied Haroon is our one, one of our wonderful EDI champions within the faculty and I did an estates
walk around with him and again absolutely illuminating the things that you do not see but then suddenly becomes so clear when you do the walk around is incredible.

And it was one of the reasons why, as we as a faculty were moving into developing our own estate strategy and thinking about what our estate needs to look like for the future,
think about changing pedagogy. Also thinking about wellbeing, which is core to our, to our strategic ambition. And it's meant that we made sure that the disability networks are very much involved in the world cafes that we had, that we had dedicated sessions for them, that there were safe psychological spaces where they can discuss their needs.

And that's really key. But it can't just be for me. It can't just be a one off. It needs to be a sustained discussion. Going forward.

0:22:13.271 - 0:22:23.342
JON: Yeah. I mean, you came up with the fantastic example there. I mean, there's some brilliant stuff that the, the EDI team do and one of those is illuminating the experiences.

0:22:23.342,0:22:23.842
BETH: Yeah.

0:22:23.842 - 0:24:58.720
JON: You know, so I mean he helped put together a video of walk through, through a building and obviously, you know, the challenges that someone might experience if they were using a wheelchair, for example. And I think that's fantastic material and evidence to take into a department like ours because people come to work and they work to a routine and they look at the guidance that might be there and the guidance might just cover the basics. But we need to think beyond that, you know, and it's about having that empathy and trying to understand the experience that other people might
having that empathy and trying to understand the experience that other people might have when they particular in particularly use the estate and using that to inform, you know, you designed at the very beginning of a project because trying to make amendments at the end of it - it's very costly and very difficult and very hard to do. And you know, we've had all sorts of discussions internally, as you can imagine, within the
department. But, you know, proportionality is one of them. And and, you know, I think people always revert to proportionality. Well, if it's too difficult to do that, maybe that's just goes on hold and prioritize something else. But then you've got to look at the context of that. You know, how many people are impacted, how bad is the experience that someone might be going through because of that? So how do you reprioritize those particular issues and make a case for them? So, you know, to me, that's gold. You know, it's about communication, conversation, understanding those experiences and using it to inform and I think to educate and convince people.

You know, I think before this meeting, I do a bit of research looking at different groups or committees that have met, particularly in Parliament. They're looking at the Equality Act and saying that it doesn't really it's not doing the job it should do because people aren't subscribing to the values that it encompasses and people revert to baseline legislation. Yeah, but that sort of seeks to cover all bases but doesn't necessarily deal with a person's individual experience. So I think it's bringing that in into the frame. You know, and I think coming back Beth, too, you know, how you started this particular conversation, you know, around hidden disability, you know, that's where there's more education is needed to more awareness. I think, so that people can just think
about this, about people by default, thinking about these issues. And it's
not just about the estate and buildings, about processes, but how we do business, how we deliver things, how we engage. You know.

0:24:58.720 - 0:26:29.305
BETH: Yeah, it’s fundamentally about how you get the best out of people, though. You know, I think about my, you know, in particular in the context of managing anxiety day to day. But I'm also an introvert, which is not the same thing. But nevertheless, in some elements of it, the things which make me work well, speak to both those characteristics, I suppose. So focus and clarity and time to energize through actually
having time on my own. Because it's through that time where I can, I can think and I can work through and I can focus and I get clarity in my thoughts. That energizes me to be able to then go into, you know, a day like today, which is, okay, I know I'm on site. I'm going to absolutely make the most of seeing people engaging with people. And I get a lot of energy from that as well. But I also know that tomorrow I will need that day to- Okay, now it's thinking through what's happened today and it's thinking, you know, focusing really on my priorities. And I think it's you know, it's really as I said at the beginning, it's one of the reasons why we need to think very, very carefully about our hybrid estate, our physical and our home life, our home working environments as well. And really in terms of our own responsibilities and thinking how what energizes us, How do you get the best out of yourself?

And then how do we make sure that that's conveyed through in the conversations that we have with our line managers and our teams around this so that they can understand and have a shared understanding around that working practices. So

0:26:29.305 - 0:27:49.120
JACKIE: I love the way this conversation is. There's a lot of you can't see us, but there's a lot of head shaking that's going on around the table. I wanted to pick up on something that you've both made me think about. Actually. We've talked about hidden disabilities, invisible disabilities. We talked a little bit about your personal experience Beth, but I'm thinking more generally and this is prompted I was reviewing an academic paper and I reviewed it over the weekend. It was based in and so in Norway and it was three case studies from three different private sector organizations about how they're implementing EDI, and they were looking at the motivation of the staff according to the different schemes that they were using. And it really got me thinking about, you know, the staff motivation. But aligned with that comes wellbeing. So you've both really talked around, you know, a sense of belonging, a sense of good wellbeing, a sense of being able to be the best we can be at work. Is there anything you'd want to sort of add to what you've said? Because, you know, we've coming at this from a place of talking about disability, but it's much more than that. We all have multiple identities. Okay, so what is it we could be doing really, in addition to what we're already doing to get the best out of our workforce and for people to have a good experience when they work or study at Manchester?

0:27:49.120 - 0:28:52.952
JON: I think you summed it up yourself, Jackie, to be honest, this whole picture isn't it you know, it's a person. And, you know, everyone has different challenges of their own,
whether you know, disability or something else, family commitments. It could be, you know, other things going on in their life, but you want everyone to come to work, either to come here to learn or to work on an equitable basis. You know, so whether that's the environment, whether that's the way that they dealt with when they work or learn the communication or the relationships that they have with individuals, the prospects that they have, career development or opportunity - it's all linked in, you know, talking about society and individuals. So, you know, that's just one part of it, you know, the physical element, but you've got to look at it in the whole round. And I think you've got to understand that not delivering something or failing to enable a component could lead to failure. In that overall picture. I think it's just trying to have that overall vision really.

0:28:52.952 - 0:28:57.520
JACKIE: That's a really good point. Beth, what do you think?

0:28:57.520 - 0:30:21.950
BETH: So as I was, was preparing for this, one of the one of the things I came across this a fantastic blog by one of our own academic researchers in FBMH called Carsten Timmerman. And he's just written a blog, I think fairly recently, which is around cancer and quality of life. And it's a, I might send the reference so you can read this at the end, but it was an interesting historical perspective on how quality of life really wasn't discussed much, particularly in the context of cancer prior to the 1970s. And therefore and then afterwards, you know, we started, started to see more into medical into the medical discourse. But it's also something that's starting to seep increasingly more. And
we call it wealthy, but essentially it's quality of life within the organization, which is why, as I said at the beginning, it's so important that we see a working place as an extension of that sense of being, well, just well, of feeling well. And if you feel well, if you feel energized, if you feel engaged, if you have that seamlessness, that's where you can really meet your potential, in my view. And and if you're going through something which is as sometimes as traumatic is going through, you know, a very serious illness or something like that, it means that, you know, that you have that support wrapped around you. And it's that confidence interval isn't it, around knowing that you have
an organization that you work for, which will wrap its arms around you in a sense.

0:30:21.950 - 0:31:02.320
JACKIE: That's lovely. Right? That's a really lovely metaphor as well. So
I'm going to wrap up soon, but before I do, I'm just thinking about, you know,
practical suggestions for perhaps those people who don't have they don't feel they have agency, perhaps in the positions that they're in or they don't feel that they have a voice, but we'd want to hear that voice.

Right. So what is it we could do in this space to enable people to have a voice to say more about what is possibly impacting to take your point, you know what is not going well and how can we overcome that? Do you have any thoughts again about disability specifically? But in the more in the larger picture.

0:31:02.320 - 0:32:41.480
JON: I mean, yeah, I've got a particular view, and I think I think you both touched on it really, and that's about support that you get from your managers and your colleagues. Really. I think by and large everyone's happy to listen, happy to receive an experience, happy to receive information. But what I do see time and time again, is that someone who has a challenge, they've not had their voice supported. They've been left on their own. I think such an important thing to do is that you can just lend an ear or you can just volunteer to be available. You can leave it to the individual to determine how they want to engage, but at least let them know that they can, if they want to, about particular problem. And when something precipitates physically, you know, we've got someone who's got accessibility issue, in most cases, it's down to the fact that no one said anything. That person's turned up and is facing an experience that could have been avoided, you know. So we could be as simple as having a conversation with someone before they start working here. You know, making sure that the conversation, if you were aware or someone's volunteered information about themselves that they feel free to talk about, say, but then see whether you've got agency in that to talk to other people.

So, you know, is there an issue around the accommodation? Is there an issue around accessibility? You know, shout out and say it, no one's going to be upset about that. But the more information that we have, the more that we can do with it. And, you know, that's just one thing that I just get a bit frustrated about. You know, please speak up and please, you know, talk about it, when you feel able to do that and share it.

0:32:41.480 - 0:32:43.256
JACKIE: Thanks, Jon. Beth, what do you think?

0:32:43.256 - 0:34:43.680
BETH: So I think we already have an amazing infrastructure through our networks, which I know we keep shouting about, but they are fantastic. And it is one of the ways which I think you can they are very, very powerful in getting that voice heard. And I certainly, you know, in terms of my professional role, have learned an enormous amount in my interactions with them and with the EDI team as well. And I know it sounds it sounds really daft, but actually I've recently, after our discussion with you Jackie, started wearing my lanyard.

And it's amazing how actually, you know, this is a this is a wonderful code in a way. It stimulates conversations because I'm meeting of the people who are wearing the lanyards as well. And you start to build a community of understanding just even simply in that way. You know, the power of a lanyard is incredible. The other thing that I would also say and I would just like to make a plug for, is it's really important that if, if you are disabled and whether that is you've always had the disability or you acquire it through circumstances, I have done, that you declare it. And that you make sure that you register, from a data perspective, that you have it. Because as an organization we need to know, about both the number of disabled colleagues that we have within the organizations and disabled students so that we can actually make sure that we have all the provisions in the planning in place to be able to accommodate them and to make sure that that voice is included as as we do with any part of our strategy design, any parts of our operational implementation. That is so, so important. If we don't know, it can be quite challenging to act.

So if I make a plea at all, it's please do not be afraid to disclose. I do know how sometimes actually it takes a big, big inhalation of breath to tick that box. I know that. But I also know that from a long term perspective, it makes a world of difference.

0:34:43.680 - 0:35:22.720
JACKIE: Thank you very much for saying that - all us on my behalf, but also to say that anything that's shared is shared in confidence, that's really important and we do have an anticipatory duty to ensure that we, you know, put into place an environment that people feel safe, secure and can have equal opportunity in. So, I'm going to hand over to both of you to ask the final question. As I said at the beginning, and this is all about having good, open, honest conversations, which I'm really grateful. Thank you both, but also to move from having discussions to action. So, Beth, I'm going to ask you to start by asking Jon, your one thing please

0:35:22.720 - 0:35:29.920
BETH: It seems unfair because Jon is already doing so much. But Jon, if there's one thing that you would commit to as result of this conversation, what do you think it would be?

0:35:29.920 - 0:36:43.678
JON: One thing... Um, as I was going to close the conversation for my end, really just by saying I think you just demonstrated, Beth, you don't know who's in the room and what their experiences are, you know, and you think about the most obvious things, but then lots of other stuff that comes out. And I think one thing that I'm determined to do, as you know, whilst I do get involved as best as that I can, is to just try and get other people involved. And, you know, people really struggle with their own head space with the time and fitting in a little bit of free thinking around some of these more complex issues is a little bit more difficult, but there's certainly more we can do, I think, around training. And I don't just mean, you know, out the box training. It's like in the context training. Yeah. So when you're designing something or when you are having a conversation with someone, here are the things that you need to preload your head before you start that conversation. And these are the kind of things that you need to take away. So I think we need to start getting our fingers into the dough a little bit more now. You know, there's lots of information out there. Yes. But I think we now need to start driving a little bit harder.

0:36:43.678 - 0:37:00.440
JACKIE: I love the fingers into the dough. That's lovely, a good image. Jon's fingers massaging the dough there. Brilliant. And you're right about bringing other people in. Okay. We can't do it all by ourselves. It is a collective effort, isn't it? So thank you. Inclusive by design. That's a strapline, right? Jon, your turn to ask.

0:37:00.440 - 0:37:11.973
JON: I had loads of different things to ask you and I think because you started fresh at the university.

0:37:11.973 - 0:37:12.473
BETH: Yes.

0:37:12.473 - 0:37:27.306
JON: Yeah. So I think the main question was around was it what you expected, good or bad? And what do you think the most obvious gaps were, particularly around the estate?

0:37:27.306 - 0:39:10.880
BETH: Um, is it what I expected? I don't think whenever you join Manchester, people always talk about, you know, when I said I was going to the university, it's always "so big", "it's fantastic". And you do not realize how big this place is and the scale of this place is until you get here. And I've said that many times before probably to ad nauseum but it's absolutely true. So I tried not to have actually any expectations, but just to embrace it was different. It's different. And to try to learn almost anew and afresh. In terms of gaps and, to be honest, the biggest, probably the biggest gaps that I've seen has been in my walk around When I did the walk around with Hamied and it's seeing things that are so obvious now to me. But when you walk around you just don't see say things like cards, card readers are too high - things like that. You know, you have to go around the back exit to get to a ramp into a building which doesn't build a sense of community. It's a separate entrance, a separate exit. It's just some of those things which are so common-sensical in a way, but yet we overlook. And so if there's anything that I would say is just open our eyes, I think organizationally, let's just open our eyes and commit to that. And I include myself in that as well. We're all learning. I continue to learn every day around this. And whether that is talking to neurodiverse colleagues and thinking about their experiences in, you know, in the digital, and the physical interface and as well as our physical disabled students and staff as well.

0:39:10.880 -
JACKIE: So your request would be to open your eyes, be more alert, think about inclusivity in everything you do. Thank you, both. This conversation doesn't need to end. I know you had more questions you would liked to have asked, but the conversation carries on and it carries on with us. It carries on with us talking to other people. So that's really what this is about. It's about catalyzing change and making sure that we're all in this together. So thank you both so much from the bottom of my heart to both of you for coming today. It's been a really interesting conversation. I had no idea how it was going to unfold, but I really appreciate you both being here. So thank you.

0:39:48.478,0:39:50.775
JON & BETH: Thank you.