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Hey folks. Mandy Kaplan here. I’d like to share a bit about my intentions and mission for MMAN if you’ll indulge me. You will? Huzzah!
Look, I am a lot of things. I’m a writer, actress, mother, and lover of musicals and cats, but NOT Cats, The Musical. Give me a little bit of credit, would ya? So...throughout my life, I’ve been surrounded (and intrigued) by all things nerd. A sister who plays D&D, a Star Wars-obsessed husband, friends who love anime, comic books, video games, and...well, you get the picture. Somehow, I have always held it all at arm's length. Not to get too deep, but maybe I never thought I was smart enough to follow it. Or maybe I have control issues and have never been able to embrace fantastical things like dragons and time travel. Until now!
So, with an open mind and heart, I am ready to join this massive (and beautifully inclusive) club and GEEK THE #%$ OUT! It’s time for all my wonderfully strange friends to baptize me into NERD-DOM. Please join me on this journey. Who knows? Maybe you’ll discover or remember a side of yourself along the way. Or at least make fun of me as I try!
Mandy: Hello, everybody, and welcome to make me a nerd. I'm Mandy Kaplan, a mainstream mom whose mission it is to explore all things nerd culture and figure out what I've been missing out on my whole mainstream life. I am very, very excited to have a return guest today. This is gonna start happening more and more. I only have a limited number of nerds in my life that I can recruit to this mission.
But, this I'm gonna say it right off the bat, a fan favorite. I haven't told them that yet, but Oh. Lot of good feedback from our episode on the Oroville. They are the creator and host of 2 podcasts for True Story FM, superhero ethics, and Star Wars generations. Welcome back to make me a nerd.
My friend, I hope it's okay to call you that, Matthew Fox.
Matthew: Well, thank you, Mandy. I am so excited to be here. I really loved our conversation about the Orville, and and, yes, I am very touched to hear that people enjoyed that as well. Hope hopefully, they will, feel the same about this conversation, about a, a content with a slightly darker, darker, theme to it, but one that
Mandy: I think we're gonna enjoy talking about. Quite different, quite zeitgeisty. That's why I reached out. But I would never have tried this show, the penguin, if it weren't for my podcast. I would have said violent, dark superheroes, no thank you.
You know, I saw the original Batman movies, like, when, when it was Michael Keaton and then Yep. Clooney and stuff. And then I think I saw one with Christian Bale. But after that, it's to me, it's dark and violent and not for me.
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: But this is my mission to I like it. Expand my horizons. So here we are having watched Max's, no longer HBO. Right? Max's the penguin.
I don't know how to hide my feelings about the show. I loved it so deeply. Mhmm. It's one of the best things I've ever watched. Yeah.
There, I said it.
Matthew: I I think I have to agree with you. And it's funny because in your introduction, you said that, you know, normally you stay away from things with, like, you know, darkness and violence and superheroes. I think part of what makes this show so good and this is kind of a theme in nerdom that I'll I'll probably expand on way too much. So don't go on a divergent. But what I'm seeing a lot in some of these shows is people saying, okay, well, we've we've created this world.
What if we tell the kind of story that other people are used to not being a nerdy thing, but just put it in a nerdy world. Because there is not a single superpower used in the penguin.
Mandy: This is the godfather.
Matthew: Yeah. It is 1 it's it's The Sopranos. It is 100% Oh, okay. A well, yeah. I don't know.
Obviously, you're right. I think it's both. I think it's Godfather. I think it's Sopranos. I think it is, it is a it is a story about criminals trying to build criminal, underworlds.
It it so happens that the the the criminal is a Batman villain. But, like, there's nothing super powered about anything in this show. It's just a gangster story and a damn good one.
Mandy: So I was so confused because I assumed it was about superheroes and superpowers. And although Batman please correct me if I'm wrong. Batman doesn't have superpowers. Right? They just use gadgets and wealth and cool stuff.
Matthew: But It kinda depends on your politics, because his superpower is that he's very, very rich.
Mandy: Okay. You know?
Matthew: I think some would argue he was the best best superpower of all.
Mandy: Uh-huh.
Matthew: In that regard, I think he's very akin to, Iron Man, Tony Stark. And and this is a debate that nerds can get into that I think is kind of silly, but the question of, is a superhero someone who has superpowers, or if they have tech that gives them the equivalent of superpowers, do they count? I I think it does. But, yeah, he he's in the Tony Stark category. He is a completely normal human.
He his superpower is trauma and, parent issues and being rich.
Mandy: Okay. So that's Batman. And then none of the the bad guys, you know, we they don't have superpowers either. We know the Joker looks like that because he was burned in acid. It's not like he was he you know, that he is a supernatural being.
So this is the penguin's backstory, but they never they they don't usually call him the penguin. He's named Oz Oswald Cobb. Yep. How much do you know about Oswald Cobb from comics, past movies? I know nothing other than Burgess Meredith and Danny DeVito.
Matthew: So I will say a couple of things, and I was I'm kind of in a middle place where I think to a lot of the people who aren't in nerdom, I know quite a lot. To comic book nerds, they're gonna laugh me out of the room because I don't know much. I haven't read many of the comic books, but I've read about them. So a couple of quick things in background that I'll say about him. He's a character who has changed a number of times over the years.
He started out as just a gangster, because was part of the point, is that Batman fought gangsters. He was he was a tech truly understand the original Batman, you have to think about, detective noir stories. Like, that's what he was. He was a gumshoe. Okay.
And and the weird thing about this penguin guy was that he wore tuxedos, you know, penguin suits as they used to be called, and he had an umbrella gun. And and that's what he the first thing he did was in a he shot his boss with an umbrella gun to take over. So, there were 8,000,000 variations of him over the years, but the things that stayed is that often he is, he has some kind of physical debility in some way. Often, it's a very long nose. Often, it's a kind of stunted, leg.
In some versions, he is literally, like, bird like. Danny DeVito in in the Batman movies did a great version of this where he had, like, little flippers and stuff like that. In other times, he's just a penguin because he is that kind of, like, he'll wear a tuxedo in a very dirt you know, when everyone else is in, like, ganglows or whatever.
Mandy: No. Well, first of all, I wanna say if anybody comes at you because you're not an expert, they have to go through me, Matthew.
Matthew: I appreciate that. I'm
Mandy: ready to fight. You are. After seeing this, I'm ready. But the this penguin, the reason they call him that is he has a physically deformed foot that makes him waddle when he walks.
Matthew: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And so and I think that's often a thing.
The long nose, the, he often has come from a very rich family, and so often there's kind of a story of him being, kind of, you know, cast out by that family. In this version, obviously, that's not the case. Mhmm. In the comic books for a long while, his name was actually Oswald Cobblepot to kinda give him more of that, like, you know, book how regal I am, etcetera. They cut that out, which had a lot of comic book people being like, oh, the show is embarrassed by its comic book roots.
I I think that's all nonsense. But the the key elements of the character have always been that he wants to be the top criminal in Gotham, and often he is not. And he's fighting for respect. He often
Mandy: Oh, man. That was always the penguin, though. Always the penguin. Always disrespected and, you know, thrown aside.
Matthew: And incredibly and and often, he has, like, very strong loyalty to the people he cares about. Like, there's often a strong family connection for him, but also this idea of, like, he is very thin skinned. You insult him, and he's often gonna like, he's that kind of, like, oh, look at how dignified and regal I am. But if you ever, like, you know, make fun of me, I'm gonna turn into a homicidal maniac.
Mandy: I wonder if that could be a comparison to anyone in our society today.
Matthew: I have no idea what you might be talking about.
Mandy: Moving on. Uh-huh. I wanna give a caveat that this episode will contain spoilers. Do not listen to this episode unless you have watched the whole series because I need to talk about every moment of it. So I'm not gonna limit myself to, oh, we can't go there.
Okay. Let's see. But we are gonna go lightning fast because it's 8 episodes. Is that right?
Matthew: Yep. You should have, like, 50 to 50 minutes to an hour. So it's a it's a it's a it's a good leady series.
Mandy: Yes. And now I was misinformed. I heard Colin Farrell was in this show, but I did not spot him once. Not in. But he played the penguin.
That can't be true. Yeah. I'm familiar with Colin Farrell's work.
Matthew: That is not true. He he won a Golden Globe actually a few nights ago for playing the Penguin because, yeah, he it is and I I hope the prosthetics and and makeup people won awards as well because he they deserve it too. K. It does not look like him in the slightest.
Mandy: Astonishing. Vocally, physically, the voice he's doing, not just the accent, because I know he can do American and British, but but he is absolutely transformed, and there's not one trace of Colin Farrell except once an episode, he looks sideways. You can see me, but the audience can't. I'm doing a weird Catherine O'Hara from waiting for Goffman, like, looking to the side, and you go, oh, oh, it is Colin Farrell, and then it's gone. Yeah.
And it's he is I'm absolutely blown away. I think it's one of my top five favorite performances of all time of all time.
Matthew: I'm torn because the only person who I think may have been as good an actor in I mean, all the actors in this are amazing. The person playing Sofia is phenomenal. But the other person I have to give some major props to is the 11 year old kid playing a young Oz Cobble.
Mandy: Oz Cobble. Isn't he good? He's so good. And and we're doing flash facts, and he's, imitating Colin Farrell, but also has his own twisted sensibilities and heart and evil and
Matthew: And is such a nuanced character. And Mhmm. And with with both of them, part of what I think really gets it is they are doing an accent that I, as someone who grew up in New York City You did? Remember well. Yeah.
I grew up in New York City. I'm born in the seventies, grew up in the eighties nineties. And, you know, it was already fading then, but it's the it's the kind of it's the accent that people mean when they talk about, like, the Brooklyn cab driver. And, like, this is what I would hear from, like, my 2 grandparents. Joysy.
Yeah. 123. Yeah. You know? Like, I I can't really do it very well, but, like and and both Oz and the Pearson playing as young Oz get it perfectly.
And it's an accent that so often sounds like a caricature. Like, it sounds like you're making fun of it, and it never does from them.
Mandy: No. And I yeah.
Matthew: Yeah. Feralds are cute.
Mandy: I agree. But but then, again, this is Gotham, not New York. Right? So this Right. It can be even more exaggerated, even more forced, and I love it.
I love this accent that they're that he's doing so beautifully, and the kid was great. So the world they've created is the epitome of dark literally and figuratively. It has been destroyed, and it's it feels postapocalyptic. I know it's not really a postapocalyptic show, but it's you know, everything is dark, bleak, black, crimes running amok on the streets, and there are these mafia families that we'll get to. But I got an Easter egg, and I never see them because I don't know anything about this world.
But the jewelry store is called Burgess Jewelry Yeah. For Burgess Meredith. So I was so proud of myself. I had to make a big note.
Matthew: Mhmm. That was awesome. And, one of one of I a Easter egg that I saw that was so good. At one point, Penguin and and and his family, such as it is, are living in an apartment complex called the zoo, which is a reference to the fact that because he in some of his more comic booky, bird like varieties, and particularly, this was in the Michael Keaton movie, he lives in the zoo. Because he's a penguin, and he, like, like the the, like, Keaton Tim Burton movie, he, like, trains penguins to, like Yeah.
Fire it's totally off the
Mandy: wall and wonderful.
Matthew: But, yeah, he lives at the zoo, so having that apartment complex be the zoo was another great one that I just loved. But, yeah, I didn't even pick up on the the Burgess Meredith one. So that was
Mandy: Nailed it. So this the the first episode really sets up this world quite intensely and beautifully. I wrote, he rarely looks like Tom Cruise in Tarpek Thunder with all the the prosthetics. Mhmm. But I was on board that it's a mob story.
It's not it I I said, Matthew, no superhero element, but I thought maybe by episode 8, it would be in there. But, no, we've established it's not. It's just this dark, intense mob story. They do have some moments that I wrote are, like, a 9 to 5 moment of levity where there's a little ineptitude or funny moments, and I wanted more of that. I could have used a few more chances to laugh or breathe or smile because it is an intense show.
Matthew: It really is.
Mandy: But Yeah. There are some of those moments.
Matthew: And I I think part of that's because Penguin is often a very funny character. Mhmm. But I think often he is a comic relief character, like, compared to someone like the Joker who who is funny but in a much darker way. And it it it's interesting how I think so much of this show is is is phenomenal, but it's wrestling with every like, because you could have written the story as a completely stand alone story that's just about mob families fighting out.
Mandy: How I saw it, because I don't know anything.
Matthew: And I think that they mostly did a great job of that, but I do think there were times where they're wrestling with the weight of everything that have gone before. My sense was that they didn't want this penguin to be too funny because that has been that has sort of sidelined him in the past, which I think is unfortunate because you're right. I think I think Colin Farrell was at times hilariously funny. Yes. And as as was, Sophia in ways that were sort of, like like Sofia, who's the main femme fatale, the I'm actually gonna say that.
Sofia, who's kinda, like, the main woman in this and he and and Cobblepot's biggest rival, he's Cobb. I'm gonna call him Cobblepot Penguin. She would say things that were hilariously funny while also being incredibly sinister, and I just love that.
Mandy: Now let's talk about her for a minute. He we he's reunited with her in the pilot. She is Sofia Falcone. He used to be her driver. Then she she hints at what you did to me, I could never forgive.
And we know she went away to Arkham Penitentiary for years, but we don't really know why in the pilot. She is played by Cristin Milioti, a Broadway baby. Kristen Milioti is not a household name, and I was envisioning all the a list actresses they probably passed over because this woman deserved this role.
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: She is pitch perfect as far as I'm concerned.
Matthew: Yeah. I I can't imagine someone nailing this part better because she is you know, we've seen a lot more in recent years about the Falcone family. This is the she's the daughter of Carmine Falcone, for those who've seen the Batman movie with Robert Pattinson, that this is kind of a sequel to or at least is set in the time after. Oh. Oh, yeah.
So this comes directly after that movie. And in that movie, her father is killed, and and that's kinda what set all of this up, because a lot of the move the show is about the power vacuum that's formed. And, yeah, just as the person who is particularly with flashbacks yeah. Like you said, no. No.
There's no spoilers we're worrying about. Right. Everything she does about this this fascinating arc of a person who was not crazy, who was not, who was trying her best to not be like her family.
Mandy: Born into a world of violence and deception and cruelty, but she was a bright spot. She was gonna rise above it.
Matthew: Yeah. And in part because of that, in part because she starts to discover the terrible things her father did and might expose him, they get her locked up in Arkham, insane asylum. Mhmm. I I say that as someone who's a very big defender of mental health, and, like, I think often mental health facilities are portrayed quite badly. That's not Arkham.
Arkham is supposed to be an old style, in the same style of run by corrupt people, etcetera. Yes. But and it turns her into what everyone was claiming she was before.
Mandy: A A brutal killer.
Matthew: Yeah. Brutal killer with with all these awful plans and and just off.
Mandy: Yet Sophia and Oswald both have heart. You are rooting for them both weirdly even though they are both vicious
Matthew: killers. Did you find so about halfway through the show, they team up for a little while. Yes. And then there's a scene where it seems like Penguin breaks that team up, but more out of circumstance than than actual need, although his secrets with her are are being revealed. Did did you find a part of you was kind of rooting for them to get back together?
Mandy: Yes. Throughout. Yeah. Because the way they start, when once they get to the flashbacks and he was her driver, he was protective of her, and she appreciated him. And they had a really nice rapport, and then shit went bad.
And he really betrayed her, and he was the reason she went to Arkham and or one of them. And I was bummed. I liked these 2 people who seemingly were trapped in this world being a team, and it was fun to see them together. Their first scene together, extended scene, is a a multi martini lunch in the pilot.
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: And they're sitting there, and they're not saying exactly what they're feeling. They're pretending they don't wanna kill each other. And it's so tense you can't breathe between these two characters. And I as I was watching every episode, that's a hallmark of the show. 2 people sitting and talking, not saying what they're really feeling, and the tension is so high.
And I think it's done so well. And just a a random praise for the show, a lot of those scenes are between 2 women.
Matthew: Yes. Yes.
Mandy: And this is a gangster's male world, but Kristen Milioti gets scenes like that with Oz's mom, with Oz's girlfriend. It's exciting to watch 2 women capable of violence and mayhem negotiate rather than 2 men, which is what we've always seen.
Matthew: Yeah. I think that is so true. And and just this is sort of a different direction, but I think kind of speaks to a similar idea. One of the reasons why I love the Sofia Oz dynamic so much is that they are they are 2 main characters. There's a there's a strong will they, won't they of will they team up or not.
Mandy: Mhmm.
Matthew: And she is an incredibly sexy woman and and portrays her in a very kind of, like, oh my god, she's gonna kill me, but I might like it kind of a way. Without without even becoming the kind of cartoonishly, like, dominate like, she doesn't have a whip or anything like that. She's just terrifying and hot. And and Penguin is not that. I mean, he certainly has a magnetism to him, but there is never a hint for a moment, at least not that I saw, that the question of will they team up again is will they kiss?
You know? Like, I can take that off, and I romance. I like watching pretty people kiss on screen. But I I'm I I will find it kind of demeaning that, like, anytime a woman has a strong partnership with a man, that part of the theme is, are they gonna hook up? And I just love that they took that off the table entirely.
Mandy: Yeah. There was no real romance on the show, which is nice. There is a Oz has a girlfriend, who we'll get to. But, but, yeah, there's no well, there's no sexy stuff. It is just too, desolate and vicious for that.
Matthew: Yeah. There there's one little, there's an there's an actor named Theo Ross, who might, maybe people may recognize from Sons of Anarchy or from, Luke Cage,
Mandy: who is just in Carry On on Netflix.
Matthew: So Oh, okay. Awesome. Well, I don't know if he this isn't Carry On, but in all the things I've listed, he he has become the person who is the younger, competent man who's utterly obsessed with and sleeping with an older woman who could probably kill him, but he might like it. And so we get a little of that with her him and Sofia. But, yeah, again, it's not playing
Mandy: Very little. Yeah. It it's this kind of,
Matthew: like, she's using him in 8 different ways, one of which is for his body, but it's not it's yeah. It's not play there's no, like, seduction scene. There's no Right. It's just yeah. This is one particular thing.
Mandy: Sexy. It's transactional with that.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: And he play so he plays doctor Julian Rush, who we meet in the pilot. Or in episode 2, we meet him because he is her therapist at Arkham. And the minute I saw him, I said, oh, well, he's not getting out of the show alive. But I was wrong. Right?
I mean, he goes through the whole show. But then I also have a note at the very end. Did he get shot and I missed it, or is he floating out there and might recur in a season 2?
Matthew: I I don't think he got shot. I mean, as as we've seen, being wounded in the show, like, your wounds heal at the speed of plot. Mhmm. Which which is very comic book y. Yes.
But, yeah, I I think they're gonna keep him around because, Arkham, it is the idea that Arkham is both incredibly corrupt and has the worst set of locks on the doors that you've ever seen
Mandy: Right.
Matthew: Is very much a running gag throughout all of Batman comics.
Mandy: And I'm just remembering he is there at the very, very end. He comes into her cell and says, it's me. It's Julian. So okay. I just remembered.
Sorry. Brain fart.
Matthew: One thing, connection I just made that I'm wondering if I I might be reaching for this, but I think I think this is intentional. The dynamic they set up of that Sofia is his patient Mhmm. But that that she she both, like, makes gets him on her side and also kinda helps push him into his own, like, you know, villain era
Mandy: Mhmm.
Matthew: Is is, I think, intentionally a mirror to the Joker Harley story. Uh-huh. Har Harley Quinn is starts out as doctor Harlequin Quinzel, who is a therapist to Joker in Arkham.
Mandy: Therapist to Joker in Arkham. Oh, so the Joker was in Arkham too?
Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. The Joker not in this version of the story yet, but in in and and the idea is that, like, Harley eventually becomes sympathetic to him, and it kinda takes up his mantle, and then helps him escape, and then becomes wanting to to help him, which is exactly what this doctor does.
Mandy: Gotcha.
Matthew: So I don't know if that's intentional, but it it feels like it's close enough that it's gotta be an intentional thing.
Mandy: Sure. I mean, talk about a violation of it's not HIPAA, but, you know, whatever it would be. I mean, he Yeah. He it's so gross. He's so gross.
Okay. The character of doctor Julian Roshnoff, the actor Theo Rossi. This world that they're in, now she gets out. I'm I'm in episode 2 ish. We are getting more more glimpses of this world, and the drug that everyone is addicted to is an eye drop.
And I find that so inventive and so fascinating. That's the party drug of choice in this world.
Matthew: I I spent a lot of time around a lot of people who did a lot of drugs. I was the I was the person who was there to, like, you know, hold the hair back, because I would send it over. But, yeah. Like, I I've kinda gotten bored of drug stories, because it's like, okay, it's a powder that you snort, it's a pill that you take, or it's a needle you put in your arm. And we've Right.
Seen that so many times. And Right. With both of the drugs that they deal with, both the drops and the later bliss, they they come up with something new and interesting. Right.
Mandy: I I really liked. Yes. So, that's why I wanted to mention it, because bliss becomes such a a focal point of the middle of the series. But everyone is addicted to this eye drop drug. And we should give a huge mention to the character of Victor Aguilar, who Yep.
Oz catches a bunch of kids trying to steal his car, and he kills them all but spares this kid, Victor Aguilar, played by Renzi Feliz, played beautifully and perfectly by Renzi Feliz. I don't know this young actor, but, man, do you want to hold him in your arms and take care of him for the rest of his life?
Matthew: Yes.
Mandy: Because he's so
Matthew: we're gonna get to know him because he's a phenomenal actor who deserves a lot of new parts.
Mandy: I believe this will get it done. He is so good. This character, Victor, has a stutter, and and I have a stutterer in my family. And one of the things that Oz does that makes you love Oz, Oz kills anybody who crosses him. Oz betrays everybody.
He lies to everybody. But when somebody's trying to fill in a sentence for Victor, Oz jumps in and says, don't do that to him. Let him talk for himself. And he he takes up protecting this young boy. Yeah.
He he treats him like a son
Matthew: at times. And he and he he he he's very gruff, and he's very cruel at times. But, yeah, there's so much love in that moment, particularly because he not only says that to the waiter, and he says, no. Like, let him take his time. But then he says to the to to Victor, like, no.
You should do that. Take up space. You know? That message is one that I think a lot of disabled people I know, certainly, I think, you know, and you can speak this far better than I, but, you know, women aren't told you know, like, people who aren't, you know, white straight cis men who are able-bodied are told, like, make yourself smaller, you know. And and his Yeah.
Of take up space, which is mirrored, by the way, by Sofia, I think, very much having a story of being told not to and taking up her space at the end of the story as well, much to Oz's not happiness, but it's still that same message.
Mandy: Right.
Matthew: Yeah. It it it reveals such an interesting part of Oz's character, I think, that he is so he's so quick to yell at people. He's so quick to get angry, but, also, he still cares in that weird way.
Mandy: I know. That's why you can keep watching. That's why you are rooting for him despite his evil heart. It's There's there's one other fascinating character study, I think.
Matthew: There's one other moment that I thought just, like, perfectly captured that aspect of Oz. It's in, I think, the 7th episode, and he's just dealt with some person who is, like oh, oh, yeah. He's just dealt with a city councilor who he is blackmailing. He clearly hates this person. He has no respect for him.
He's threatened to, like, destroy his political life, to, like, kill him. He's, like, almost ripped off the guy's nose. And then and then he's, like, yeah, get out of here, yeah, yeah. You know, terrible person, like, drive away. And then as the guy is, like, cautiously, like, pulling out of a parking space, he starts doing the, like, midwestern dad.
I'm like, no. No. You got enough space. You're okay. I'm helping the guy pull out of this space.
And I was just like, Oz, what are you doing? Like, why are you I know. Clips his bumper. But that's just who he is. Oz is like and just give me a second.
I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but I I won't defend New Yorkers as a New Yorker because people are, like, oh my god, New Yorkers are just terrible people. It's no. I think we can be very kindhearted. We're just not very nice. And so I often describe that a perfect way to understand New Yorkers, if you're walking down the street with too many bags and you drop 1, New Yorkers will rush over to help you Mhmm.
And will be very friendly as they help you. And then they'll walk away saying, goddamn tourists carrying too many bags. What the hell is wrong with that person? Right. But they still have gone over to help you.
You know? Right. And that that moment for Oz should feel so much like that.
Mandy: Yeah. He's he's layered and and, fascinating. Mhmm. Like, here I go. I'm getting deep.
Heads up. Like an animal at the zoo that you want to you could just sit and watch for hours and try to figure them out and their patterns. And there's maybe no pattern, and sometimes there is. And that's how this version of Ozcob is. And I Right.
I I I love it. So I'm while I'm still on episode 2, tiny observation. He slugs Pepto Bismol out of the bottle, and that is such a movie trope to me. Mhmm. Just I had to ding this see this perfect show for something like that.
I don't know. These characters that walk around slugging Pepto Bismol.
Matthew: Yep. It's just such a way to say, like, they have lots of stress. They have stomach ulcers. This is who they are.
Mandy: Yeah. But then in the 3rd episode, we go and we go back in time to see how Victor ended up on his own. His family dies in the flood. Right?
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: And the the way they did this flood took my breath away. It was so scary and real and well CGI'd, and I I am in awe of the effects on the show.
Matthew: Well and this is one thing I love, because, for context, have you seen the Batman movie that this is sort of a a follow-up to? No. Okay. So forgive me for spoilers in that, but the flood that they're talking about is a major plot point in that movie.
Mandy: Okay.
Matthew: And they're doing something here that I really love that has kind of been a new trend in superhero stories, but hasn't really happened much, which is where often, like, you know, the evil plan of the bad guy will cause mass destruction. But all we see is, like, the superhero sadly observing the mass destruction. And maybe, like, 1 or 2, like, you know, adorable, you know, kids being in the threat of danger so our hero could rescue them, that kind of stuff. Mhmm. But we don't often see, like, what's happening to normal people Right.
While these 2, like, superpowered people, or in Batman's case, you know, not that, but still, like, you know, super evil, and and and and Rich Hero are trying to fight them. Mhmm. And so to show us that same scene from that movie, but now show us just no. What was this like for normal people and how yeah. Right.
It's out of a horror movie.
Mandy: Oh, okay. So the flood we saw I'm assuming not the same footage, but we saw the that flood. Okay. Got it.
Matthew: Right. And the and the even starting now is before you see the flood, we see just, like, explosions everywhere. Mhmm. And in a Batman movie, you're used to seeing explosions. But what we see is these 2 kids on a roof watching these explosions that we know where the if we've seen the movie, we know where the bomb's blowing up the dams, and that's why the flood happens.
Okay. But it it just looks like a horror movie. And it's just I I felt just how terrified these characters would be, especially as they literally watch their parents get washed away.
Mandy: Yes. Oh, it was really emotional and visceral and fantastic.
Matthew: And if I can say one other thing about that scene. Of I'll Allow It. Thank you. And this is not the scene, but just the whole plot line with him. He's he's up there with a girl who he's clearly likes.
Yes. And she likes him back, and they're, like, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, like, date there there's some level of of connection where they're already kissing each other. Mhmm. And it's such a small thing, but that was such a trope break. Because so often in a story like this, when you've got a character like Victor, who is in some way, like, seen as less than by others, because in his case, because of his stutter, you know, it's a disability, it's that they're very shy.
Part of the point is that, of course, they're not, like, brave enough to talk to girls or to whatever gender they're interested in. And that by the end of the story, our main character will have helped give them the confidence to go up and ask out the girl.
Mandy: Interesting.
Matthew: And the fact that the the version of him in this story, before he gets the confidence that Penguin gives him, while he has a stutter, while he's shy in retiring, is still, you know, able to be very interesting and attractive to this also very attractive girl. I loved that so much because it was just a thing. Like, yeah, just as he is, he is still, you know, to someone that age, like, a very attractive kid, someone who wanna switch on. And Right. I just love that so much.
Mandy: Well, and the the confidence he gains through Oz is darker. He gains the confidence to kill and to discard human life. I mean, that's a that's even darker than Yeah. Now I can talk to the girl I like. Thanks.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: So we're in Victor's world for a lot of this episode, but then we're also in Sofia's world
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: Towards the end. And this is, Michael Kelly, who I know from house of cards.
Matthew: Yep. Me too.
Mandy: But, okay, he plays a character named Johnny Vidhi, who is, like, the number 2 to Sofia's dad, right, or to, Sofia's uncle Right. Who's the head of the Falcone family. And Vidi Johnny Vidi calls him the penguin, and I think that might be the first time.
Matthew: I think so. Yeah.
Mandy: And it's jarring because you're seeing this guy who as evil as he is, he's down on his luck. He can't help his limp and his waddle from his deformed foot. And, Johnny BB slings that insult at him, and it's just like, oh. And then this episode ends with, I wrote, moments after he has a powerful to Sofia. She says, I don't know how I can trust you.
He says, how about I keep showing you? Then he just leaves her for dead. And it's twisted.
Matthew: It's so yeah. The and of course, in the next episodes, we'll talk about in a second, is where we start to get her backstory. Yes. The way they time everything of, like, that is always just as you're feeling, I wanna, oh, why did this character do that? That's when they give you the backstory.
That's when they give you some of the answers. It the pacing of it was just so perfectly done.
Mandy: I agree. I wrote 3 times in those first three episodes. Wait. What the hell did he do to her? Why does and I thought I was gonna need to ask you, and you were gonna say, oh, well, in the comic books or in the movie.
But, no, that's the show making us want this information and then giving it to us at the perfect time, like you just said.
Matthew: Right.
Mandy: So her dad is played by the very adorable and harmless Mark Strong, who I mean, how much have you seen Mark Strong?
Matthew: I've seen him in a bunch of things. Yeah.
Mandy: If I saw him at a restaurant, I would leave the restaurant. He's so scary.
Matthew: Uh-huh.
Mandy: He's such a good baddie. That's all he does. Right? Have you ever seen him play a non bad guy?
Matthew: No. And I I'm so glad to hear that because I couldn't enjoy his performance because that same character in the movie is played by John Turturro.
Mandy: Oh, interesting.
Matthew: And in such a good role that it's hard to like, I I couldn't focus on, oh, look at how good this guy is. I just kept looking at him and being like, but you're not John Turturro, and John Turturro was so good in that movie. So I'm really glad to hear that without that background, this role was just as good.
Mandy: I mean, I don't know anything about the movie or or, you know, or Chaturro's performance of it, but Mark Strong is Mark Strong. He does what he does, and he is terrifying.
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: So we see how she ends up in Arkham. Mhmm. And I wrote the sequence of her entering is chilling because Sofia Falcone up to that point is a gal just like me, a young woman who was making her way in the world. She had not committed crimes. She was she thought she loved her family.
And watching her go through that process is chilling. I read the book Orange is the New Black before it became a series
Matthew: Uh-huh.
Mandy: And it still haunts me because of the premise that the police can knock on your door one day and say, that thing you did 10 years ago that you thought was no big deal, it's a big deal. Come with us. And that was the purpose of her book. I can't remember her name. Piper something.
But the purpose was this could really happen to anybody. I was a normal gal working and living in an apartment, and they came and found me and threw me in jail. So watching Christian Mariotti go through that was so scary.
Matthew: It it really was. And I we try not make this too much of my own personal life, but, like, I I've had a lot of experience of mental health, mental health professionals, and I have like, I'm very much a person who's not like like I think therapy is great. I think sometimes mental health institutions can be exactly what a person needs. I was in one for a couple days, and it would save my life. Right.
But I also know that within a lot of the system, especially when it's not working well, once the medical, like, people that's certainly paranoid as I say that. But, you know, once once folks in that world, or even just your family members, mark you as this person is not mentally stable, it becomes possible to ignore everything you say and just write it up as, oh, this is because they're crazy, because you're starting and this show calls that out so well. Yes. Because part of what happens is, they they frame her and, basically, make it seem like she is completely out of her mind, so that all of her and then, you know, every question is some version of when did you stop hitting your wife? It it you know, that that kind of old trope.
So that when she says, but I never did, everyone goes, oh, so look how in denial she is. Mhmm. You know? And just part of what I think is so horrifying and surreal is that what does drive her into kind of sociopathy or, you know, whatever it is. I'm not I'm not trying to diagnose her, but more in the kinda pop culture use of those kind of terms, like, whatever whatever it is that drives her to be a person who just brutally murder people by the dozen Yeah.
Mandy: Including a lot of her
Matthew: own family. It it it it's it's that. It's that you see her starting to lose it because of her realization that no matter what she does Right. Once the system has stamped her as you are not mentally well, she can never change that because everything will be seen with that assumption.
Mandy: Yes. And a place like this can make you crazy. Yeah. So she has a neighbor named Magpie, and I wrote, I might have killed Magpie too.
Matthew: Mhmm.
Mandy: This highly, highly annoying crazy person, you know, taunting her and in her face and trying to be her best friend. And, it's a place like this can actually make you crazy.
Matthew: And what I loved about that scene is that she's holding back. She's holding back. She's holding back, and then she's pushed past her limit, and she snaps into a homicidal rage. Mhmm. What does that sound like?
Like, in that moment, she was exactly like Penguin in a way that I just felt so interesting.
Mandy: And probably her dad too. You know? Yeah. Here's where I just fell for Kristen Milioti. Mhmm.
Because she seemed 10 years younger in this episode. Yeah. Her demeanor, her look, her eyes, her voice, everything was younger. And there were no prosthetics. There was no difference in her look.
She just is a fine actress who seemed 10 years younger and more innocent, and then she comes out hardened having aged, you know, 40 years in her 10 years at Arkham. Oof. This is a great performance. Did she did she didn't win a Golden Globe, though, did she?
Matthew: I don't think so, but I I think she's I I try not to pay too much attention to the award talk, but I but I'll see it every now and then. And I think she's being talked about a lot as as getting an Emmy nomination because I think she deserves I think.
Mandy: She got the nomination for the Golden Globe. I know that. I just didn't see who
Matthew: Okay.
Mandy: Who won. Anyway, so her physicality changes in this episode. She comes home. Now we're back to present day. We see what she's been through, and she, spoiler, kills her whole family brutally.
Matthew: That's that's the kind of young girl in her family, her niece.
Mandy: Right.
Matthew: Yes.
Mandy: She changes how she walks, how she holds herself. She is now free of this family. Everything about Sofia Falcone is different, and I credit Cristin Milioti with Mhmm. Bringing all of that subtlety and physicality. There was no dialogue.
She just changed. She just was reborn in that moment.
Matthew: Mhmm. Ugh. Yeah.
Mandy: It was all so well done, and her gentle, kind nature with her niece, who she wanted to spare.
Matthew: Mhmm. Because I think we we saw her at that age. Like, that she is that age. There's a whole backstory of her mother committed suicide as she was told, and and she discovered her at that age. And then that's a lot of what kinda started her down a lot of these dark roads, but, obviously, it was that when her family framed her that drove her off the edge.
And I think it's very intentional that that that girl is exactly Sofia's age. You know, she she's and and it's that same I think Sophia sees in her the little girl who she wants to protect, but in so doing, winds up doing the exact same thing of, you know, because Sophia's young girl was lied to and told her mother committed suicide. And I think it's pretty clear that her father killed her mother.
Mandy: Right.
Matthew: And and here, Sofia is saying, oh, no. No. It's a terrible accident when Sofia is the one who killed this young girl's family.
Mandy: And then I I thought she was going to keep Gia and raise her, but she actually sends her away into the system. Right. And and when she goes to visit her later, yes, it's self serving. She's trying to tell her, like, don't tell anybody what I did, but she's also trying to spare Gia of this life. That's why she doesn't keep her.
Yeah. Because she knows so Gia won't have a future. So letting her go is her way of saving her.
Matthew: Right. It's the attempt to break the cycle because this is part of when she's realizing that she's been fighting so hard against becoming her father that she literally has become her father.
Mandy: Completely and totally. So that was episode 4, Sophia's backstory. She murders the whole family. Now we're back in present day. Episode 5, Vic is now violent.
Victor. He's now got a taste for it. He's got his confidence, and I wrote, I don't like that he's violent now.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: He was so sweet and a voice of reason, and everything he was doing was he had he he was forced to commit these acts of criminal violence because it was to save his own life, and now he was taking some joy in it.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: And I didn't like that.
Matthew: Yeah. I mean, it it's this story is fundamentally about corruption, you know, in a real way. And that they talk about that a lot because they talk about how the mayor is trying to clean up the corruption in Gotham. But I feel like this story is really a story about the corruption of Gotham, which I I'm gonna say more about as we get to the end because I I I have one quibble with that. But I think the character of Victor is a great way to show that, especially because and I don't know if this is the director or the actor, but he stutters less and less as he gets confident.
Right. The point where he, one point, will give a very impassioned speech, basically trying to, like, mobilize a criminal army
Mandy: to
Matthew: go and help his friend in work, and he doesn't stutter once during that speech.
Mandy: I know. Chills.
Matthew: It's so good. It's so good.
Mandy: Yep. I I wrote, is this what The Godfather's like? Maybe I should see that. Can you believe I have not seen The Godfather? I'm a 50 year old woman.
What is wrong with me?
Matthew: It is very, very good, and and I can't imagine how it fits under making me a nerd. But if there's any way I can talk to you about it, I would happily
Mandy: do so. Thank you. In episode 5, I got a little fed up with Oz always getting out of trouble, always, winning in whichever little battle he was in. When he says, wait. Wait.
Wait. Wait. Wait. Don't shoot. Nobody shoots him.
Yeah. And that's another trophy thing that's I roll my eyes a bit. Why is it that he kills people left and right, but when he says, wait. Listen. No.
Then then they don't cut his throat. Yeah. It's crazy.
Matthew: It's it's definitely a bit of a trope. It's definitely, like that that is a trope of the character is that his superpower really is his his ability to talk his way out of anything. But I think that it was a bit overused in this in ways that were and, like, he feels to me and this this feels very accurate to a lot of the more modern version of the character, especially, Robin Wright. I think it's Robin Lee Wright. He's got a middle name.
I forget it. But, in in a very different, portrayal in the TV show Gotham, but a brilliant one. And and in that one and in this one, there's often a sense of, like, he every he wins all the time, but every victory is pure. Like, he wins, and then 2 other things that he thought were secure fall apart. You know?
And so he goes, and he wins those back, but then 2 other things fall apart. And there's just constant, like he's always getting his finger in the dike when he needs to, but then 2 other holes pop up.
Mandy: Okay. So is that what puric means?
Matthew: Oh, no. Yeah. Puric victory just means, like, you win the battle but lose the war kinda thing. Like Oh,
Mandy: I see.
Matthew: You win a particular fight, but you lose so much doing it that it's not actually worth it.
Mandy: You're making me a nerd in so many ways.
Matthew: That that's a Greek history nerd. So ancient ancient Greece. So there you go.
Mandy: Oh, alright. I would have called it vocabulary nerd, but, in episode 5, here's here's my story. I screamed out, spoiler coming, spoiler coming, when she shot Johnny Vitti, which I love. You take a well known actor in a smaller role, and I think he's gonna rise up and become one of the stars of the show. And now they just took him out.
Uh-huh. I love when they when shows do that. I yelled, oh my god, And my husband, Jer, came running down the hall. He's like, are you okay? What happened?
What happened? That's how invested I was. I couldn't believe it.
Matthew: I was I I had to spit my hand over my mouth because I also my, I'm much more of a night owl than my spouse is, and, also, she's she's newly pregnant, so she's, sleeping all the time. I need to slip that in somewhere. But yeah. So she's, Congratulations. Thank you.
Thank you. July 23rd, a new Padawan learner will enter our family. But, yeah, so she's sleeping a lot, and I really don't wanna disturb her. And so I'll often watch this stuff later at night, and, yeah, I had to clamp my hands over my mouth when it happened. Yes.
I think I think you're right that the penguin talking his way out of trouble trope is overused, but I don't think it's coincidence that those two things are in the same time because what is v Vidi is trying to talk his way out of trouble. Mhmm. And I think she I think we're supposed to think she's the one who won't let Penguin get away with it, because he starts to do a Penguin act of talking his way out of things. And she's just like, no. I'm just gonna shoot him.
She doesn't tell him to shut up. She doesn't make she's just like, no. We're just not doing this.
Mandy: Heartless. Now comes the point of the episode where I wanna talk about hairstyles.
Matthew: Let's do it.
Mandy: Do is there a reason why Sofia Falcone has that Joan Jett weird haircut?
Matthew: Yeah. I don't I don't know. I I had a question for you actually about her makeup, but let let go what you think about the hairstyle. Because I'll say, at the beginning, I don't know what the details there are about the Joan Jett haircut.
Mandy: It's so specific. If you everybody or Pete. I think Pete can put a picture up of her. It's like jaggedy and black in the front and then a little long and shaggy and rock star in the back. And it just I thought maybe it was, some holdover from, oh, she had to keep it shorn at.
And I I don't know. But but it's a fascinating haircut. Not very attractive.
Matthew: Everything about her style kinda felt to me like she was someone who was trying to do a look that she like, here here's my the makeup question I was gonna ask you. Around that time, there's a couple episodes where she she has, like, dark eyeliner for a lot of Mhmm. Show. Mhmm. But she has, like, a dark line under her eyes.
Mhmm. I've been trying to do more makeup on myself. I'm still very new to it. Mhmm. But that felt like it's a it like, that didn't feel like that was what where it should have been.
Like, I feel like I was looking at her line and hearing, like, you know, my partner who helps me with it being like, no. No. It's gotta be on your eye line. It's gotta be on your tear line or whatever it is. Did you notice her eye makeup seeming off in some way?
Mandy: No. Not that I noticed. Exaggerated.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: She and she's always wearing things that are a little too over the top for the situation. And Yeah. But I but I see all of that as her just taking back her freedom and expressing herself and doing whatever the fuck she wants.
Matthew: Yeah. So I guess I would say that, yeah, the hairstyle to me fits in very much with that as well.
Mandy: Yeah. I guess. I didn't notice the makeup, though. One character we have not talked about who starts to factor in in episode 6 big time is Ava, and that's Oz's girlfriend played girlfriend slash prostitute slash partner in the Bliss drug business that Oz and Sofia launch. And they use Victor, and Carmen, and Ava brings all her girls in to Uh-huh.
To sell in the clubs. They wanna have the new party drug for all of Gotham. And the actress, Carmen Ejogo or Ehogo, I'm not sure,
Matthew: Do you know she's not American? I did not know that. She definitely, like, I could tell she's not white and and,
Mandy: She is Nigerian and Scottish.
Matthew: Interesting. Yeah.
Mandy: Okay. And doing that accent and pulling it off Mhmm. So gloriously. I loved this actress.
Matthew: And we get so little of her, but still, what we get hit so hard. And Mhmm. I I just wanna say that there's this is a way in which it really echoes a theme of the movie. Because in the movie and here, I don't wanna I don't wanna spoil things too much. But the the way that sex workers and women in these clubs are treated as highly disposable is a big plot point.
And the fact that for these girls, and they I use that term, like, they're grown women, but they refer themselves often as that. Yes. And they're often referred to by as that. That they they have a very strong solidarity because they're the only ones who can look out for each other. Right.
And and so the fact that her character is very much motivated by that, and the only reason she turns on Oz is when she realizes that, like, Oz has been kind of covering for someone who murdered some of her, you know, fellow workers who who, you know, she was very close with. Right. It's just a perfect carryover from the movie in a way that I really appreciated.
Mandy: Okay. Good. I was about to praise the creator of the series, but I don't have the name. Lauren LaFrante. This series was created by a woman, which I also love because it feels quite masculine and quite familiar to that tone, and and yet here she is.
Did you know fun fact, Jonah Hill was the first person offered this role according to Reddit, according to my inside sources on Reddit. Okay. What a different show.
Matthew: Yeah. I'm like, I I I have seen him be a decent actor, but still, that would have been such a yeah. No. I'm very glad that I did we did not go that route.
Mandy: I couldn't believe it. They're just so different. Their energies and their I don't I don't know that I could be terrified of Jonah Hill. Maybe. Yeah.
And in this prosthetic, I think anybody would come to the role and and bring it to life. But, I just was blown away by that.
Matthew: Uh-huh.
Mandy: So episode the end of 6, Ava, Oz's girlfriend, gives him up. He's in hiding, and Yep. Sofia is after him. And she goes to Ava's, we think, to kill Ava, and she spares her, which is another reason another complex aspect of Sofia's character because she does feel bad that her dad killed all of Ava's friends. And it's a fantastic scene between 2 women negotiating life and death, and it's riveting.
And we're in Ava's apartment, which is a real glimpse into her real life, not her street walker life, not her glamorous life with Oz, but just who she is when the wig is off. Yeah. And I loved it.
Matthew: And that's commented. Like, you know, she Sofia asks her, like, do you you know, because she she doesn't have the makeup. She's not dressed up all glamorously. And and Sofia asks her, like, does Oz ever see you like this? And she says, yeah.
He doesn't like it. And I just thought it was such an that was such an interesting moment of Sofia is getting to see a a side of her of Ava that Oz doesn't get to see. You know? Right. And there's an intimacy there that is really powerful.
Mandy: And you just struck a chord because Oz's mission in life is to give his mother, whom we haven't talked about, which is a Shondis, but he wants to give his mother a glamorous life. His mother is his world. He's in love with his mother, I think. And, Frances Cobb is now in her seventies and has some dementia played by Deirdre O'Connell, who Mhmm. Is off the charts perfect in this role.
But when we flash back to who she was as a young woman and we see that Oz everything he did was to be with his mom and for his mom and love his mom. He actually killed his brothers.
Matthew: Yep.
Mandy: Hello. Twisted. Twisted. Twisted. And it leaves them as 2 lost souls, and they're the only thing that each other has.
She wants to kill Oz for what he did, but she spares his life. And he devotes his whole life to giving her a glamorous life, which is interesting that then Eva Eva says, he doesn't like me without my makeup and my wig and my glam
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: Because he wants this glamorous dream of his mother.
Matthew: Early in the show, you've one of the ways, I think, that you first feel so much sympathy for Oz is he has a moment where he's like, maybe I need to get out. Maybe I just need to run. And his mom is like, no. You need to become the criminal overlord. You need to go do this.
We promised you'd take care of me. And I'm just like, oh my god. This is every overbearing mother. Like, you know, this this is the the worst stage mom you've ever seen times a 1000000. Yeah.
And, which, small aside here, but I just wanna get into, one of the things that is often done with Oz is that he's often been portrayed as Jewish. And in some ways, that's been good, but in some ways, it's been kind of problematic, especially with the whole, like, long nose thing and him being, like, the child of rich parents and all and him being the one who is the most, like, financial conspiracy type things. And they intentionally, I think, made him much more Italian than Jewish in this. Mhmm. And, honestly, I gotta say, especially after seeing the the scenes with his mom, I was happy for that.
Because I feel like there is such a stereotype about Jewish mothers and sons, that, like, that scene would have felt like a bad cliche if it was that. But but instead of it not being but but still very, like, you know, New York, Brooklyn, which has that, but Italian and Irish and all that stuff. Mhmm. It it just played perfectly because yeah. So at first, you're like, oh my god, Oz.
He has this terrible mother. And then as it comes out, you realize his mother was never the best, but she was doing her best. And Mhmm. She is like this because this was the way she could rationalize, not you know, she continued raising her son because her son promised that he would do all these things for her. Right.
He was like, that's the only way I can ever forgive this horrible thing you've done to your brothers. Yes. Let's just talk about that. How did you react to that whole plot line of when we see how he killed his brothers?
Mandy: I mean, it's it's part of this twisted thing that I love on this show. It's all jaw dropping, but it could happen. And I was I was so down for how dark this got and and the exploration of evil in the hearts of men. I was down. I just I loved it.
I thought it explored it in such a powerful way. So
Matthew: Yeah. I I should I
Mandy: mean, my criticisms are like Pepto Bismol and Yeah. I have minor, minor, minor negatives. I I thought this was a damn near perfect 8 episodes of television.
Matthew: And it's funny. Yeah. Because my only real criticism that I'll get to in a few minutes is is just about how well it ties or doesn't tie into the Batman movie that preceded it, which for you doesn't matter, because it's just a standalone show, which is Right. Much better. But part I think that's the best episode in the show, although it's a very tight race.
Partially because so, you know, and for you listening to this later, they forgot or whatever. Like, you know, he's playing this version. He's playing, flashlight tag with his brothers, and his brothers go and hide in a place that's down a a steep ladder that it's hard for him to crawl and for him to come down. And they're like he's like, I caught you. I win.
Like, no. No. No. You gotta actually hit us with a flashlight. You have to come down.
And he starts to, and it's really hard with his leg. And he's like, and you how can you do that? That's not fair. And he says, like, guys, you know I can't climb down a ladder like that. Why are you doing this to me?
And in that moment, I was so on his side. Mhmm. Because yeah. Like, I and I was never a disabled kid. I became disabled as an adult.
But, like, yeah. When when there are moments where my my friends kind of, like, forget that, like, oh, yeah. You invited me to this restaurant. It's up 2 flights of stairs. Right.
I like, that sucks. Yeah. And so what I thought they were giving us was this that he without having to he's just, like, fine. Well, I'm just gonna, like, close the door on you to show you that I'm mad at you.
Mandy: You a little lesson. Yeah. That would be a normal childhood thing to do.
Matthew: Right. And I've seen in a bunch of movies, one kid has a flash of anger, another kid, and and does something that, like, later kills the kid. But but the first kid had no idea it was gonna do that. He didn't mean to kill them, and it's horribly traumatizing. Yeah.
And that's what I thought they were giving us. And then we get to the scene where the rain is coming down and the mother is worried, and I'm like, okay. So here's where Oz says, oh, no. I know where they are. Let's go find them, and they come out dead.
And Oz doesn't go look. And I was like, oh, okay, Oz. Now now is when you you tell Oz? Oz? What it
Mandy: it just Matthew, he curls up on his mother and watches a movie and eats popcorn, and he's happy because she's he's got her all to himself now. It's
Matthew: It was so much
Mandy: fun. Diabolical.
Matthew: And and did you catch what the movie was? I forget. It was Fred Astaire as a gangster dancing as a penguin.
Mandy: Oh. Oh. Oh. Yes.
Matthew: Like, it was just so perfect. It was, like, every moment of that and it just and that's when I was, like, give this little kid an Oscar or an Emmy or whatever the hell. Like, because He was really good. Yeah. And you could see on his face the moment where he realizes, like, they may not actually get out.
Mhmm. I'm okay with that. And that's when you're like, oh, this is so much more evil than I thought it was. Yes. Dark.
Mandy: So we we are coming to an end here, but I wanna ask, did you cry at the ending of this the series?
Matthew: Yes.
Mandy: Me too. Me too. You are the only guest that I that I cry with.
Matthew: I I I cried a number of times today. I assume you're talking about Where Oz Kills Victor. Yes. Which
Mandy: Oh, god.
Matthew: At first, it made me angry because I love that character so much, and I didn't wanna see him not be there. Mhmm. But what I realized is there's a lot of shows that have kept characters around long past the time when they should have died or they should have moved on because the audience likes them. And, like, there may not be a season 2. This may just be a stand alone story, and next, we're gonna get Penguin as a as a character in in the next Batman movie.
I have no idea. But the fact that you are willing to kill him off because it is exactly what Penguin would do. Right. It was really hard hitting, but I I thought it was absolutely proper. Me too.
I loved it.
Mandy: Yeah. And I think there is, another season or at least they intended for it because she's in Arkham, and she hears from her cousin, Selena Kyle, who I know to be Catwoman. Yep. Right? And and then there's a Batman signal.
So I think there will be a season 2.
Matthew: Just, not cousin, half sister.
Mandy: Half sister. That's what I said. Don't correct me on my podcast, man.
Matthew: Yeah. I'm sure. Well, just fill it in because Selina Kyle is the child of Falcone and one of those sex workers who he abused.
Mandy: Oh, okay.
Matthew: Yep. Whoo. No. Alright. Those two teaming up is gonna be something.
And she's played by Zoe Kravitz, who's phenomenal.
Mandy: But maybe not in the series.
Matthew: Maybe not. We'll see.
Mandy: I know. And I I mean, I'm down with Zoe Kravitz, but it it'll just be interesting because they they're doing their own thing here.
Matthew: Yeah.
Mandy: Okay. I'm I'm gonna just recommend this show to to everyone big and small. I although my son wants to try it, I think it's just too violent. But Yeah. He can try it.
And if, you know, and if he is disturbed, he won't watch it. But as a as a masterclass in acting, everyone should see this show.
Matthew: Can I just throw out 2 last things very quickly?
Mandy: By all means, of course.
Matthew: So the first is and there's another one of these, like, blink and you'll miss it moments, but that just it it fills in the world so well. A lot of these shows that are about the mob and about Italians act as though there's no one but Italians in their world. And that's not quite accurate, and I like that they they mix this up here. And the the this is about, you know, from the very beginning of Batman or at least as long as I don't know, the the the mob families have been the Falconies the the Falconies or the Falcones and the and the, Salvatore Moroney. Maroney.
Thank you. Moroney. Yeah. Moroney. Yeah.
And Salvatore Moroney is played by Clancy Brown, who's Mhmm. And one of the things is his wife is Iranian or Persian or well, she speaks Farsi, and she's played by an incredible actress. And there's just this one throwaway moment where he he she she taught him how to cook, and he cooks, an Iranian meal for Sophia Uh-huh. And then says a very quick blessing Yep. That I heard the word I know a tiny bit of Arabic, including the word shokran, which means thank you, which I think is what he said.
Mhmm. So and, like and the show doesn't make a big deal of it. Like, did he convert to Islam? Did he just say the prayer because that's what his wife did? Right.
Mandy: And you don't need to.
Matthew: We yeah. We don't. But it's just such a beautiful detail about the richness of this world.
Mandy: Shora Agdashlu, and if I pronounced it incorrectly, I apologize, but from House of Sand and Fog with her voice like this. Yeah. And she is I mean, she's the type of person you cannot look away. She's so stunning, and, in her presence is so imposing. And she's fantastic in this.
Matthew: So the other detail I was gonna say and this, you know, I I think in some ways, I'm glad you only saw this and not the movie, although the movie is phenomenal. But my only real complaint is that and this is a complaint I have more and more as we're building these bigger universes, is there seems to be this thing of if you make a TV show based on a movie world, you can't actually say the things from the movie. Like, the word Batman is never mentioned. Right. We see the bat signal at the very end.
Right. And that didn't make any sense to me because so much of what has just happened is about the Batman, and it's about the Batman establishing by the end of the movie. Like, he is a beacon of hope. And then so on the one hand, it feels like, was it everything Batman do not matter because no one feels that hope? Or does, like, why isn't he getting involved as these criminal underworlds are turning to war?
Like, where is the Batman? And I get that for the purpose of the show, they wanna keep him off the table. It it just felt like it didn't actually make sense in the world that the movie had created. And it's just a little quibble of mine about these kind of, like, like, you don't have to extend the universes. This could have been a stand alone show.
But if you're gonna put it in the universe with the Batman movie, then I just wish there'd been a little more connection there.
Mandy: And that's one of the nice things about coming to it not knowing anything, because I didn't know that and didn't care. I Really? Not once did I think, where's Batman in all of this? Yeah.
Matthew: So yeah. Yeah. And then that goes I I think that kinda underlines what I'm saying. Is it should it it make it just a stand alone thing. You know?
Right.
Mandy: But God bless my ignorance.
Matthew: Love it. Love it.
Mandy: Alright. I'm gonna tell everybody about my stuff, and then I want you to remind everybody where they can find you.
Matthew: Sounds good.
Mandy: Make me a nerd is a production of True Story FM Engineering by the peerless Pete Wright. Our theme song is Wonderstruck by Jane and the boy. You can get me on Instagram at mandy_caplan_clavans, both with Kate's. If you're listening to this on Apple, please, please leave a review. Hit write a review, share your thoughts about the Penguin or anything else we're talking about.
Hit that 5 stars. It helps get more eyes on the podcast. And if you're feeling really into it, go to make me a nerd dot com and hit the join button to get your episodes ad free and early and some bonus content. Sometimes I keep my guests and do an extra interview and only members are hearing those. So, thank you for listening.
Thank you for all your support. I am going wildly out of order, but after Matthew tells the world where they can find them, I will come back and tell you what I think I'm doing next week. Matthew, hit it. Okay. So, I
Matthew: am known as the ethical panda. If you go to the ethicalpanda.com, you'll find both of my podcasts, and that page is a subpage of the True Story FM family of podcasts. If you like superhero stories, especially like the ethical questions they raise, you know, questions like, you know, when is it okay to become a vigilante? A story that is a little bit relevant in our own world, for Super Mario reasons in the last 2 months or so. You know, questions about, like, you know, team Tony or team Cap, all those kind of things.
Go check us out on superhero ethics, and we've we've expanded the world of superheroes, quite a bit. We talk about science fiction. We talk about fantasy. We talk about Cobra Cobra Kai because the ability to have that much high school drama and still not communicate well, I think is a superpower. We talk about all sorts of great things there.
And if you love Star Wars, and you're kind of sick though of so much Star Wars discourse being very confrontational and especially being very generationally confrontational. You know? Oh, we we're the prequel era. We're the best. We're the original movies era.
We're the best. Check out my other podcast, Star Wars generations. It's me, a millennial, and a, gen zer. Er talking about why we love the things we love, and talking about being critical of the things we don't like, but from a perspective of, like, hey, this this could be better. Not the kind of garbage you see so much online.
We're right now doing episode by episode coverage of Skeleton Crew, the amazing TV show that I think is also very stand alone. And and not to keep inviting myself on this podcast, we have the great thing for, Mandy I think you would really like. But, yeah. So that and, of course, you can find me on most of the socials at the ethical panda. I've been debating how much I wanna move to blue sky.
I haven't really moved there yet, but I probably will be soon. As we record, quite literally, the Supreme Court is deciding whether or not I'm gonna keep being active on TikTok or whether that's gonna go away. But I should've been a limbo where I haven't been creating TikToks until that's decided. If hopefully we get to keep TikTok, I will keep making TikToks there and you can see more of that. But most of you just check out all the great things, true story, and that's where you're finding.
Mandy: Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for always wanting to dive deep, but yet keep it light. It's just such a joy to talk to you about these things and Oh,
Matthew: thank you.
Mandy: Hear your perspective and have you educate me, and it's, nerducate me, trademark. Next week, I will be doing Blade Runner. What has become of me? I watched Blade Runner. That's all I'll say.
So everybody go watch Blade Runner and join me next week. And thank you, and goodbye.
Matthew: Umandia's dream of electric sheep.