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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.861)
Good morning or afternoon, evening, depending on when people are listening. But I'm saying good morning to you, Taina, because it is early when we're recording this. How are you today?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:02.201)
Morning.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:06.36)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:11.626)
It is, it is early. I'm okay, I'm okay. I haven't been sleeping well, but whatever. That's par for the course, so.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:19.25)
Hmm.
Yeah, well on a future episode, I think we should talk about paramenopause because more than likely that's part of what's going on for you. It's definitely going on for me and I am going today to find out about possibly going on to hormone replacement therapy, is something I never thought I would do. So as I
Taina Brown she/hers (00:30.956)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:40.878)
Gender affirming care, what?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:43.461)
I know, before it's illegal for me too. It's so ridiculous. Anyway, yes, by the way, anyone who's on hormone replacement therapy, HRT for your paramenopause or for men also who do the same thing as they age, they go on testosterone, all of that is gender affirming care. Okay, but that's what, I don't think we're talking about that today, even though I can talk about paramenopause for days at this point, but I thought it might be interesting to talk about...
Taina Brown she/hers (00:45.943)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:57.964)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:11.387)
signal. And the hubris of white men, which also relates into an article that I just sent you that ran in Cosmo that just came out in Cosmo as we're recording this, and I'm happy to put it in the show notes for people talking about the it's called the great feminism recession. The backlash to gender equality is here, but why? And it's based on the study. The study is probably more important to look at because if you look at the study,
Taina Brown she/hers (01:13.077)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:38.963)
it starts to change a bit of the it's interesting to look at the framing of the article but i think that things can be a bit related because white men men specifically white men are just a reminder again
Taina Brown she/hers (01:56.352)
worst. Not all. Obviously we know that.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:00.313)
don't even, we don't, you know what? We could do a little conversation about not all being anything, right? Because as soon as we have to give the caveat, not all men, not all white men, not whatever, that is the same as the all lives matter stuff. I know you know this, but I'm saying this as the white person in the room to like drive it home for people. Men, if you claim to be a feminist, if you claim to be an ally to women, you cannot get your panties in a bunch when someone says,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:15.635)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:30.213)
all men suck or men are bad or even if they don't use all men, just men suck, men are the worst. Do not come at me with a not all men because until it is not all men, it's all men. And you are the ones who need to call them in and fix your brothers, not us. I could rant on that too. But I figured we can talk with this study a little bit and then also kind of bring in how that relates to the ridiculous
Taina Brown she/hers (02:41.929)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:46.741)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:58.981)
story that's happening as we're recording this, who knows by the time this airs on Monday, only a few days later, who knows where we'll be. But at the moment, these top brass folks, including the vice president of the United States, went into a signal chat to talk about war plans, to talk about military maneuvers in foreign countries in a encrypted but still
Taina Brown she/hers (03:03.059)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:06.45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:26.483)
private company, not government, not skiff, public app that anyone including you and I use to have conversations. And they brought a journalist into the conversation because they're idiots. Either accidentally or not accidentally, either way, it was stupid. But I think it speaks to this hubris of Whiteman, this overconfidence, because now they've said, it's not real, it didn't happen. It's a journalist's fault. It wasn't really sensitive data. And then immediately,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:28.692)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:36.422)
Accidentally, yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:54.665)
so they're gaslighting.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:56.823)
Right. And then they go and then the person comes and they're gaslighting another white man, which is hilarious. But and then they're they've come out now with even more receipts to show, don't don't don't play me because look, I'll show you the entire conversation, which includes all of the actual detailed times, locations, military weapons, everything that you guys talked about. And and then today the press secretary. that that wonderful lady.
came out and said the whole story is a hoax. Like I can literally see it in front of my eyes and it's a hoax. But that's... They're going with hoax. It's worked. Why wouldn't you? It's worked for them. That's Trump's go-to, right? You just... Just like lie. And then what happens? He's learned. I think he has learned in his life, which I think a lot of men have learned in their life.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:32.017)
She said it's a hoax? That's what they're going with?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:40.892)
Wow. Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:48.379)
Yeah, because there are no consequences, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:53.831)
that if they just, yeah, it works for them, why change it?
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54.194)
They can just get away with it. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:01.018)
If you deny it long enough, eventually the other person will get tired of trying to prove it.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:05.266)
Yeah. Or again, the gaslighting. If you tell me what I see isn't real, eventually you wear me down. Because how do you have a conversation with somebody who's saying, like, you can say to them, here is this thing. And they say, I don't see that thing. But I'm showing you the thing. There's no thing. What are you talking about? Eventually, you're like, I'm talking to a... Yeah. And it works. And it's terrifying to see it at that. To see what has happened when we allow...
Taina Brown she/hers (05:20.977)
I don't see it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What do you do? You can't do anything. Yeah. You can't do anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:34.427)
white male ego, fragility, hubris, you know, this unearned confidence when we let it go unchecked to the point of it now being the most important seat in the entire world. And it is terrifying because everything we thought would happen is happening. No one thought this person was qualified to be Secretary of Defense.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:41.862)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:55.866)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:00.934)
Yeah. I was talking with a friend last night, a really good friend, a best friend, one of my besties, who was in the military for some years. And we were just talking about the process of getting security clearance when you are in the military or become like a government official and how we're pretty convinced that like these people
Becky Mollenkamp (06:01.714)
Here he is.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:28.367)
could not pass a security clearance process. And actually, I remember the first time Trump was elected. I was living in California, and I was working with this or for this research company that researches neurological conditions. And so we handled brains of deceased people who had neurological conditions. But the office was on
the VA campus in LA. And because it was on the VA campus in LA, I had to go through a security clearance process. And it took forever. And I had to, I don't know if you've ever worked somewhere where you have to, if you've ever done any kind of research or anything like that, there's these self-paced courses that you have to take to like,
get, I forgot what it's called. Yeah, where you get certified as like, in terms of like ethics, when it comes to like ethics and research and ethics and government property.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:27.708)
sure,
Becky Mollenkamp (07:36.563)
Any parent, I'll just, for parents who are listening, anytime you've been a volunteer at your kid's school or for a sports team or anything, they make you go through those kinds of things where you show that you have listened and you know the rules around being a mandatory reporter or what it looks like if somebody's bullying somebody, whatever, those kinds of, and I think anybody in the workplace often does those for things like sexual harassment.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:49.251)
See ya.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:53.662)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:00.547)
Yeah, yeah. So the ones that I had to do were in terms of like ethics and government, ethics and research, things like that, which are like a little bit more intense. so and I remember as I'm as I was going through like the videos and like the the quizzes and stuff, I just very clearly remember like getting asked a question that
Trump had just failed. Like he had just done the opposite of what I was being told I needed to do as, even though I wasn't working for the government, because it was on government property, I was considered a government employee, which is a weird thing, but he had just done the opposite of what this ethics in government video was telling me I needed to do. And I'm like, how, how, how?
Lake what what what universe are we in right now lake he's on a completely alternate timeline from the rest of us because the ways that we have been taught and mandated to function. Don't apply to him and his his his goons his.
They're like they're like the mafia like they're like the mafia running the fucking government and you know Historically the president of the the the seat of the president of the United States has been the most Powerful position in the world, but I'm at the point. I'm like, what if it isn't like what if what if it's not? Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (09:49.651)
Well, I think it's quickly becoming not because the rest of the world is going like this, this mockery that you are, you all are engaging in has gone too far. American folks, I think a good portion of us also agree it's gone too far, but sadly we, this election has happened. And I think the rest of world saying this is ridiculous. I think the rules thing is so interesting because what it makes me think like who writes the rules and who are the rules for, right? Historically. And the rules have been written by white men for everyone else.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:57.3)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:08.874)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:19.611)
And I think white men learn that that's the case, right? That these are rules for other people. And I get to decide whether I abide by them, but I'm the one who sets them. I'm not the one who has to follow them. They're meant for everyone else. So anyone who's not a white man learns very early on the rules matter. Right, you have to follow these rules. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24.042)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:32.828)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:37.342)
You have no choice. Yeah, you have no choice to follow the rules. But if you're a white man, you choose to follow the rules, but you can also choose not to.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:43.697)
Right. And if you don't, the consequences often are not much. Whereas if you are a woman, if you're a person of color, you learn early on the consequences can be deadly, right? The consequences of not following the rules set by the white man can lead to your death. So of course you learn from an early age that rules really matter and that we have to follow the rules and we have to be careful. We've got to be really serious about this. And white men are more like
Taina Brown she/hers (10:49.919)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:01.299)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:06.91)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:12.455)
Rules are meant to be broken. What's going to happen, right? Ask for forgiveness and like all of that stuff. And this is what happens then when we get to this place is the people who are setting the rules once again, don't believe the rules apply to them. And so then when they get called on it, the answer is like, I think I honestly feel like there's a, there's probably they're sitting there going like, wait a minute. Like, why do they get, who are they to call me out on this? Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:14.36)
ROOSHMALLOWS
Taina Brown she/hers (11:38.622)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:40.679)
How dare they? Like, I don't, these rules don't apply to me. They apply to Hillary and her emails, but they don't apply to me. They apply to Obama and his stuff, not to me. I'm, don't they see me? Don't they see I'm a white man? Like this isn't me. And so it's just so interesting to watch. I feel like they're almost like deer caught in the headlights. Like, wait a minute, what do you mean? We don't have to the rules. Haven't we established that at this point? And then the answer is just like, well, then I guess we'll just say, that's not real because it's worked in the past.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:45.723)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:49.447)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:05.767)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:07.705)
just so interesting to see like I feel like this moment is such a like microcosm of the bigger issue of what happens in white supremacist patriarchal systems where white men. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:19.775)
yeah, it's definitely on display. It's like playing out in a very real and public way. We're usually in a very institutionalized way where I think for a lot of people, the way that they usually see this play out feels interpersonal, right? And I think for decades, feminists, black feminists, people from the queer community, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (12:38.653)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:48.909)
the quote unquote woke mob, we've been saying this isn't an interpersonal issue. This is an institutional issue. These are systemic issues that are embedded in our institutions. And it feels interpersonal because we are people, we are interpersonal people, but it's bigger than that. And we are finally seeing it play out on the biggest institutional stage where
I mean, technically it's been playing out at this institutional level for a long time, just not in such a public way. And now it's like, it's not just on public display, it's giving itself a parade.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:32.685)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is the interpersonal thing because I think for so many folks
for folks who are not white men. And that is the bulk of people who voted against Trump were not white men. White women voted far too much for him, obviously. But I mean, his largest supporting, his largest base is white men by far. Like they vote overwhelmingly for him. Others vote against him. And I think it's because folks who are not white men, so many of us have that experience of being in a relationship, whether it's a partner or a boss, but in a relationship where you recognize that
Taina Brown she/hers (13:46.447)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:09.139)
abusive behavior, right? And we can see it because we're like, I know this behavior. I've experienced this before. I know what it's like to be with a narcissist or a sociopath or a person who lacks empathy and care and like, and then turns it on me. Right. And that's what I'm seeing happening now. And Faith Clark shared an article with me that I thought was really interesting. And I'll link it in here too, that just came out, I guess, a couple of days ago called When Your Abuser is Your President.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:10.478)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:24.25)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:35.908)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:35.995)
and talking about like, there's a reason why we're all feeling this because we're in an abusive relationship with our president, right? And we all recognize these symptoms from having been in relationships in other places with the same sort of narcissist psychopath kind of person. And it's hard, like those are hard relationships to leave. And then when you have a person at this level and then they say to you,
Taina Brown she/hers (14:58.938)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:03.539)
No, none of that's real. What you're seeing isn't real. Don't mind any of this. It's not real. get you're like in a relationship, maybe I have the option to leave. I don't even have an option to exit out of this. Like there is no like I opt out. You're stuck in it and just and it's crazy making and I don't use that term in a derogatory. Like it literally is enough to start to make you feel like you're losing your mind. It's scary. Well, and maybe we can talk about this other article then because I think it's
Taina Brown she/hers (15:13.912)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:24.909)
Going crazy, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:32.097)
Hehehehe
Becky Mollenkamp (15:32.967)
somewhat like I think it's somewhat related because this article came with a study. There was a study and I saw the Cosmo article about it. But there's a study that was done globally and there were something like 25, 24,000 people. So it's a huge sample of people. I think it's important to note that it's not a huge sample of people from a singular country where there may be more norms around like the cultural concepts of an issue.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:58.744)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:01.373)
So we're talking the bulk of the people, like 24 out of the 25,000 or whatever came from Canada, Ireland, the US, those seem maybe somewhat similar in that they're Eurocentric kind of countries and New Zealand and South Africa, which are colonizer countries as well. But then also Turkey and Malaysia, which have very different kinds of histories than those other colonizer kind of countries. So I think it's interesting. I don't know what that does to the data, but I'll just share a little bit about the data.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:19.393)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:24.683)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:31.153)
This is talking about what the different generations feel about gender equity or gender equality, male and female. So baby boomer men, baby boomer women, Gen X men, Gen X women, millennial men, millennial women, and Gen Z men and women. Those are the four generations covered by this study of 24,000 people. And what they found is there is this growing divide that has been happening.
or that is present as you get younger. So baby boomers, men and women, actually are the most similar in their beliefs about gender equity and equality. And Gen Z are the most divided, right? They have the biggest gaps between their beliefs around these issues. So younger folks right now have a bigger, women believe that they are more likely to call themselves feminists than men.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:10.241)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:16.372)
Hmm, okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:29.009)
That is true across all generations, but the divide between, and Gen X or Gen Z is much higher than in others. So Gen Z women are more likely to call themselves feminists than Gen Z men who are less, they're as like unlikely as any other decade or generation. Some of the other questions they ask, the one that really gets me too is men are being expected to do too much to support equality. And that goes,
Taina Brown she/hers (17:46.325)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:57.843)
As you get younger, that number goes up among men. So Gen Z men, 60 % of Gen Z men answered yes to that question. Men are being expected to do too much to support gender equality, where 44 % of baby boomer men did. And with women, it's almost all 30s. Yeah, and there's a couple other questions there, but I think that one is, here, I guess the other one that's really interesting and relevant is we have gone so far in promoting women's equality,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:14.557)
Interesting.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:26.291)
that we are now discriminating against men? And the answers to that question were again, baby boomers up to Gen Z and Gen Z it was 57%. So almost 60 % of Gen Z men said yes, while only 38 % of Gen Z females said yes. And only 29 % of baby boomers. What I thought was really interesting too, was finding out how baby boomers are responding to these questions that the men and women and baby.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:49.8)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:50.673)
your generation are so much more aligned and we're answering in ways that were way more feminist than the other generations. And the worst generation was Gen X, my generation, which is embarrassing. So I think I may just continue to call myself an elder millennial, even though I am technically Gen X, because it's embarrassing. But I think it's interesting looking at this and seeing that while we see in the US, in our politics,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:57.62)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:06.356)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:18.983)
these disparities, this obvious glaring problem that we have with sexism and racism in our country on display in this moment of like white men just not getting it. still think younger men are getting brainwashed by the Joe Rogans of the world, I suppose, the Andrew Tates of the world to believe that men
Taina Brown she/hers (19:33.299)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:45.841)
are the ones being discriminated against. Men are being expected to do too much to bring about equality. Feminism is a bad thing. And I just think that that's really sad and interesting. I don't know. When you looked over it, did anything come up for you?
Taina Brown she/hers (19:57.853)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:03.57)
Yeah, so when you first sent me the article, I had like an internal eye roll, not at you, but at the article, because I was just like, I'm so tired of these conversations. I'm so tired of this, like, take of, you know, is feminism dead? Is our have feminists gone too far? Like I
Becky Mollenkamp (20:13.309)
no no for sure.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:33.04)
That's not new. That take is not new at all. And I think...
Becky Mollenkamp (20:36.721)
No. What's been happening? Generation, I mean, I'm sure you remember it. I remember the 90s at each wave of feminism, there's this like, feminism's dead. So I totally agree.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:41.005)
Yes, absolutely!
Taina Brown she/hers (20:45.641)
Right. Right. Right. And the study, the results of the study, I think, validate that, right? Like across generations there. I mean, the divide obviously varies by generation, but like this whole conversation about, you know, is feminism dead? Is it is it creating more harm than good? Like that conversation has been around since before feminism.
was even a word. I think it having that conversation, one is a distraction from like what the real issues are. And two, like, it just it misses the point. Like, I think the real question is not is feminism dead or has feminism gone too far? I think the real question is like, how do we how do we
How is feminism adapted? How do we adapt feminism to meet the needs of all the people in these different generations? Because every generation grew up in a different kind of culture. That's legit. There's nothing wrong in saying that. But that's not where we end that conversation. Where that conversation ends is when we've
interrogated those very specific generational cultures and said, okay, how has that affected the way that people think about not just gender roles, but the world in general? And how do we then have a conversation with people who think that way about how to have a more equitable world? I'm just, I think
Articles like that are right up there with clickbait for me because it's just like, look at this controversial take. It's like when you get on social media and it's like hot take or controversial opinion. And then it's like you hear what the person has to say and you're like, that's not controversial at all. That's not a hot take. I remember once I... Right, right. I remember.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:46.289)
for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:03.239)
Great. Hot take. Hot take's fuck.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:09.26)
So I think I may have mentioned this before where some Gen Z influencer was like, adulting hack, have more than one set of bedsheets. That way when you do laundry, you don't have to wait to put your bedsheets back on the bed. And I was like, that's a hack? That's not a hack. That's normal. So it's the same. It elicits the same response out of me. It's like, this isn't controversial to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:27.409)
Right?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:37.585)
Yeah. Well, it's disappointing to see Cosmo, not that I think highly of Cosmo at all, but a publication for women to even frame, because when you look at the study there, because I had a conversation with about faith about this with Faith Clark as well. So I want to credit her and some of my thinking here. But it's just so interesting because you could frame that study in a lot of ways. What I would see when I say that study is, holy moly, men.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:59.885)
See ya.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:04.893)
have a long way to go to catch up to their understanding of the realities of life for women, right? Because when twice as many men as women are answering questions that way, that doesn't mean feminism has gone too far, right? It means that there's clearly a divide and women are saying, hey, we don't think so. And we're the ones affected here. And men are saying, we don't care what you think, right? And so I think there was a lot of ways you could have framed that. And for them to talk about, to frame it as a backlash to gender
Taina Brown she/hers (24:09.527)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:23.564)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:34.627)
gender equality and asking the question is feminism out of favor with women is a really interesting way of framing this study, especially for a publication that's meant for women, right? Like I might expect that that sort of framing from the Charlie Kirk's and Andrew Tate's and yeah, or even Men's Health, right? But it's upsetting when you see it in women's magazine. And I also think going just to the study, because I think the study in and of itself is interesting and I am interested to know, because I think we need to know.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:43.008)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:46.486)
Yeah.
Men's health. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:01.738)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:04.379)
If young men are feeling this way, what's happening? What's causing that? Right? I think that is an information. But I also think as Faith had mentioned too, it's the framing of the questions, right? Because when we talk about the framing of the questions, that starts to change things. I define myself as a feminist, but there's no explanation of what that means. What if you had asked, I believe that all men and women should have equal rights under the law. Would that have elicited different responses than I define myself as a feminist? The idea of
Taina Brown she/hers (25:08.224)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:25.821)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:33.425)
Have we gone so far in promoting women's equality that we're now discriminating against men? Could it have been that historically we've done so little to promote equality among women that now that we are, men are feeling the pinch of that or they're feeling a loss of privilege, right? Because that's what that question means, but that's not how it's asked. So each of these questions could have been asked in a way that was feminist and would have received different answers, I suspect. And so I do think that that's really interesting.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:47.761)
Right, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:52.818)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:03.636)
Yeah, that's a really important point because it brings up this idea of data literacy and ethics in survey collection and ethics in data collection and research studies, which, I mean, that's what my wife does. And so we are constantly having conversations about just like...
Becky Mollenkamp (26:03.655)
Well, I'll just bring anything up for you before I go on to another thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:27.773)
Look at this ridiculous question. Why would you ask a question this way? One, it's leading or it's a leading question or it's not really getting to the point. The answer that you would get with this question is not really the kind of information that you're looking for. So even when I'm putting together feedback surveys for clients and stuff like that, I always run that shit by my wife because I'm just like, what's the best way to ask?
this question in order to get the information that I'm looking for that's going to be useful for me. But then once you have the data, data can be manipulated. One, how you collect the data, there's always going to be a bias there. And one thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:13.617)
Right, well, as I mentioned, these countries are not all the same, right? And so to throw Malaysia in with the US and then make it look as if this is representative
Taina Brown she/hers (27:19.259)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:23.993)
If it's on the same, yeah, it's different. Cause there are cultural differences. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:26.737)
Right? There's major cultural differences. And then how useful is the data to draw these big conclusions that globally now we're saying feminism's dead.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:32.411)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:36.463)
Yeah, yeah. so one thing, like one example that I use a lot when I'm doing like Women's History Month presentations, which is Women's History Month now in March, is the statistic to illustrate the need for something like data literacy and what data literacy, how we can.
expand our concept of the data that's been collected is that statistic that people like to throw around during Women's History Month about how women only make 68 cents or 80 cents to every man's dollar. And it's like, okay, that statistic is not not true, but it's not the whole truth, right? If you break it down even more, like you see that Asian women make the highest rate per dollar.
compared to women. And then it's white women. And then it's Black women, and then Latina women, and then Indigenous women. And so there's more nuance to be discovered or to be not discovered, but to be uncovered when you're doing research, when you're doing data collection, that if you don't really ask the right questions, you miss out on that nuance. You miss out on that complexity.
then when you're giving the data, when you're showing the data to people, it becomes this prescriptive mode for things like policy, for things like nonprofits, the way that they organize and the way that they work, that is not really, it's not really hitting the mark where it needs to hit the mark because the data hasn't been informed enough to actually target the real issue that they're trying to target.
And so data literacy is such a big issue.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:25.649)
on that.
It is, and that specific stat, it's really interesting too, because then it's the framing of the statistics, right? Because when we hear that stat, what you hear almost every time is women earn 73 cents on the dollar. Well, interestingly, which group of those women that you mentioned are the ones that make 73 cents on the dollar? It's the white women. We could just as easily say women make 90 cents on the dollar, whatever it is that Asian women make. I believe it's somewhere around.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:53.157)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:53.991)
Or we could just as easily say women make 56 cents on the dollar, which is I think what the indigenous women, the lowest end of that is. But the one number that gets thrown around as the universal number, right, is the white women. And that happens again and again in studies where the number that's pulled out as if it is the number or the standard or the average is actually just whatever is representative of the people that the framers of the story care about.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:59.929)
Yeah, yeah. But the priority is on the white women. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:21.975)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:22.843)
which is generally going to be white men, white women, right? And so that is important because when we talk about these things, just the way we talk about it and the way it's framed, but we, and as you said, it becomes, it becomes this thing that we take as like gospel and it's not true. And yes, white women do earn 73 cents on the dollar, that is not gospel. It's like a close the whole story. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:32.101)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:38.542)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:43.715)
That's not the whole story. That's not the whole story. even to break down the nuance even more, like when you're comparing white women to Asian women to black women to Latino women to indigenous women, like you're talking about, you're mixing race and ethnicities in there.
Like Latina is an ethnicity, it's not a race. So you can't really compare it. Right? You could be a black Latina, you could be an Asian Latina, you could be an indigenous Latina, you could be a white Latina. it's not even that like breaking it down by quote unquote race is not really getting to the heart of the issue.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:03.891)
Hmm?
Right, we can be a black Latina, right? Right, let's.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:21.907)
The only thing that that does is illustrate just how I don't want to say ridiculous or nonsensical because it's race is one of those things and gender are these things that are absolutely not real and 100 % real, right? They are constructs that matter. But also when you start to look at them too closely, you start to realize how quickly they break down because they are just constructs.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:37.441)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:46.322)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:47.921)
And so that, and that's one of those places that illustrates that and having these conversations doesn't have that kind of, know, generally we're trying to, especially when you're trying to talk about data, which you're trying to make something that can't be hard and fast, black and white, it's this or that, trying to turn it into a solid number of just like, well, this is what, like even this study, this talks about men and women. What about folks who are gender non-binary, right? Or gender expansive, like.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:01.515)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:12.276)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:14.599)
that information doesn't get put in here. then, so they're either being lumped in or excluded. Well, maybe that would have changed the data. So it's everything, who's deciding to do the questions? How are they creating the questions? Who are they asking? How are they categorizing the data they receive back? How are they reporting that data? then all the way to Cosmo, how are they framing the data? And I think data literacy and also media literacy, which we've talked about before.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:21.343)
Right, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:31.457)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:41.959)
We have to become educated consumers of this information. And when I saw this, it was like, my initial reaction was yours too, which is just like, my God, at 50, I have heard this same story now every decade. Every year there's a story coming out and certainly every generation, here it is again, feminism's dead. And I think what they really mean is, has feminism gone too far to your point earlier?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:54.625)
For 50 years. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:02.88)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:07.473)
is what I think when I hear that what I feel in my bones is have women gone too far as in chill out ladies, we've given you enough, right? And so it always makes me more angry. And then when I see the answers coming back in this way where men are saying yes and women are saying no, it just reaffirms for me that that's exactly what's happening each time these sort of things come out. It is men reminding us, hey, we're willing to tolerate so much of this.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:12.925)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:17.502)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:27.956)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:36.561)
and then it's enough, right? You only get what we deem enough and we're saying, slow down, right? That's the feeling I get when I see this sort of thing. And what makes me angry wasn't so much the study as the framing of it. Go even that way.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:37.992)
Yeah, pull it back a bit.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:43.648)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:51.165)
Yeah, yeah, which, yeah, which I think you brought up two really important points, right? Cause it's like, I think the, the other thing is like language, especially loaded terms that are in the popular lexicon of, you know, of the way people understand the world around them, like feminism and race and gender, like those mean different things to different people. And so.
when you are doing research like this, when you're talking about these kinds of issues, you have to level set at the beginning to make sure everyone's on the same page. Whenever I'm facilitating or working with a client one-on-one and we're talking about these things, I'm like, this is what I mean when I say this. Let's define these terms first so we're all on the same page. And that way, later on down the road, there's not some kind of...
disagreement or complication because we've been talking about different things the entire time. And then the other thing is, where did they get their samples from? They could have gotten these samples from everyone who goes to church. They could have gotten these samples from upper middle class neighborhoods or lower class neighborhoods. So that information is important to know when you're looking at data.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:05.469)
Joe Rogan listeners.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:16.163)
where did you get your samples from? Because that also gives context to the results that you get from the data. If all your interviewing or all your survey results are from a very specific group of people, then all that's telling you is that that specific group of people think that way. I think I remember, you remember the book, Grit by Angela Duckworth?
Becky Mollenkamp (35:42.525)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:45.282)
Yeah, like a lot of people love that book. I haven't read it. So, you know, like I don't I don't know much about it, but I just remember, like, at some point, someone told me that, like, most of the people surveyed for the results of the research of that book were like people in the military. Well, of course, people in the military have grit because that's what they're trained to do. Right. So like.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:48.157)
I haven't either.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:12.622)
it's important where this data is also coming from because it contextualizes the data in a way that gives us information about where there might be bias and where there might not be bias. And so we have to know, we have to know all of that as well. And without knowing that, like how can we, you can't form an opinion really without, or you shouldn't without knowing that. Cause
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37.395)
Well, that is what I think is so important. It's like teaching people curiosity. And I don't think we're teaching people that. And then I think going back to what's happening right now with this whole, I think they're calling it Signal Gate, this whole thing going on is it is clearly the response to that is stop being curious, right? Let's stop. Don't ask questions. Yeah, just accept what we say and don't get me curious.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:42.81)
Yeah. No, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:55.919)
Yeah, yeah, stop asking questions.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:02.149)
And by the way, that's what the school system's designed to do, right? That's what we teach children early on. Don't ask questions, just do what I say. And it's important to ask questions. I had two final thoughts and I know we have to wrap up, but one is I just wanted to point out one of the question I didn't mention because it's the one that really makes my skin crawl. It feels less important, but I just want to share it, which is a man who stays home to look after his children is less of a man. That was the question or the statement that people had to agree or disagree with.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:05.316)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:27.01)
Wow!
Becky Mollenkamp (37:28.723)
So that really shows you, I think, a lot about the framing of this study to begin with, because what kind of question is that instead of saying a man who stays home to look after his children is more of a man, that would just be one word different, or something that would be even better, which is like a man who stays home to look after his children is contributing to his family, is supporting his wife, is doing what women have done through history, and that should be validated. Like there are a million ways to look at that, but the framing is really something. Okay, and the other thing,
Taina Brown she/hers (37:40.164)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:49.26)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:55.936)
Who funded this research is my question.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:58.779)
Well, it was funded by King's Business School. I believe they're out of London. So King's College London. I don't know enough about King's College to know, but obviously, and they have a King's Institute, Global Institute for Women's Leadership was also part of this. So interesting. well, I'm glad you didn't. Their framing is really, I wonder if comes out of the men's studies department or something, but anyway, the last thing is just like, so.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:05.753)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:12.386)
Yeah, I almost went to King's College.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:21.284)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:26.103)
one piece that I'm taking from what I've read here. Like, listen, all of the stuff, all of the caveats of this has always been going on, that there's definitely a lot of questioning about the quality of this study and all of that. But I do see again and again, not just here, that there is this growing, what appears to be a growing discontent amongst younger men fueled by the Andrew Tates and the Joe Rogans and the right wing kind of thing that like,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:52.376)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:54.767)
in-cell pipeline thing. There seems to be growing discontent around women, around feminism, right? Around like women's equality or equity. And the thing that I am taking from all of this is what I think we need to teach young men more and all people, because this is also an issue around race. So it's everyone too. But I feel like there's just not enough teaching people how to sit with discomfort. Because I think when I...
Taina Brown she/hers (38:56.801)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:02.232)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:16.439)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:22.978)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:23.703)
All of this, what I really see is young men saying, I'm uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable with this change. My dad didn't have this. I didn't see that with my grandpa. Now you're asking me to deal with all of this change and navigate all of this stuff when I thought the world was going to look a certain way for me, right? As a white man, I thought my world would look like this. And now you're asking me to adjust that to this new reality that where I have to lose some power. I have to lose some of that privilege.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:32.012)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:40.767)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:51.697)
where I don't get to just say the rules don't apply to me. And inside of that is what I really hear is just discomfort, right? The same discomfort that everyone else has had to navigate forever. We're asking white men now to navigate some of that discomfort and they don't know how. I don't think they have the tools to do it. That doesn't excuse it. But as a parent of a young white, a white boy who will become a white man, it is just a reminder for me that I think it's really important.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:55.089)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:02.932)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:08.992)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:19.453)
to teach young white boys who will become white men how to be with discomfort, how to be with things when they don't go their way, when it isn't what they thought it would be, when we're asking them to get with something that's really hard, showing them what it looks like to lose privilege, to lose power, to not always have it in the room. I think it's just so important for them to be with that so that they, when someone says,
Taina Brown she/hers (40:24.81)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:30.272)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:43.419)
a man who stays home to look after his children is less of a man, the answer is an obvious, well, no, why would that matter? But I think men hear that and they feel these young men are feeling this like loss of that power they thought they are supposed to have. And I think that they just learned how to be with some of that discomfort. I don't know, that's what I was, out of all of the other stuff, like I know all the media lawyers and all that, but the piece where I'm like, what can I actually learn from this and take from this beyond that kind of thing? And that to me is like this critical thing that I feel like
Taina Brown she/hers (40:48.618)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:57.067)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:00.704)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:07.349)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:12.763)
As a society, we have to figure out how do we help? And I know, by the way, just before I hand it over to you, I also know it can be really hard to hear that when you are somebody who has a marginalized identity, because as a woman, there's the instant instinct in me, having a child has changed us a bit, but my instinct is always like, well, fuck you, I've always had to be uncomfortable. Why do I have to coddle you as you learn to be uncomfortable? So like I get that instinct and feel that entirely. And as a mom, also think, yeah, but I...
Taina Brown she/hers (41:14.952)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:31.93)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:41.723)
If you don't learn it, how do you learn it? We do have to be skilled. anyway, I don't know if anything else that comes up.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:43.484)
Right, exactly, Yeah. No, no, I 100 % agree. It brings to mind, you know, I read something a few weeks ago about, well, not read it, but saw it, because I think it was on social media, but about, you know, there's this whole thing that they're calling the loneliness epidemic of young men and boys. And someone was like, it's not a loneliness epidemic. It's a skills gap. Like, they just.
They haven't learned how to form platonic relationships. They haven't learned how to deal with rejection. They haven't learned how to be uncomfortable. And I think that's the root of it, right? The loneliness epidemic, calling it that and focusing on the loneliness is focusing on the outcome, right? Whereas what's the root? Right. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:34.015)
same as the feminism. We're focusing on the wrong things.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:42.341)
At some point you do have to learn those things and sometimes you have the intuition to learn on your own and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you need someone to walk alongside you and help you learn those things. I think the question, the real question is are men willing to learn? Right? Like are they willing to just be like, okay, I see this as a problem for me, which in turn becomes a problem for everyone.
How do I learn these things?
Becky Mollenkamp (43:13.467)
Unfortunately, it seems like men aren't. Again, not all men, men as a collector, they don't seem like they are. The times I see the exceptions are when a man finally has a daughter. It shouldn't take having a daughter for you to recognize where one has full feelings, but that seems to be it. By the way, you also probably had a mother or a sister or a grandmother or an aunt or, know, but anyway, that is one time when it seems to, but that's why I think it's got to start young and anyone who has kids, if you have a boy.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:19.632)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:28.806)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:35.101)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:43.303)
especially if you have a white boy, but anyone with a boy, we need to teach our boys all of these skills that they haven't had to historically have. It is not baked in their bones the way it's baked in our bones, right? Through genetic women learn to be afraid and follow the rules and to learn how to deal with loneliness or, know, we have the skills that we have to to keep us alive and men haven't had to have that and we have to start teaching them.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54.758)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:02.898)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:08.243)
skills when they're boys because we can't rely on them to willingly decide to do it when they become men. Some will and not enough do. Yeah. Well, this was a great, thank you. It was a great conversation. See you again next week.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15.462)
But some won't, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:20.913)
You're welcome. You're welcome.