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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
Dinine Sig: [00:00:00] Hi friends, I'm Deneen. I'm the host of this show, the Space In Between. I'm a mom, I'm an attorney, I'm an author, and I'm also a widow. We're gonna get into some really important stuff today, and I'm really grateful that you're here and you're gonna be sitting with us on this space in between. So today we are at the engine room in Broad River and I am so excited this.
I think is a year in the making of me. I'm so sorry of me. No, me too, but of me trying to meet with the woman sitting across from me in Broad Ripple. Um, I wanna welcome Dawn. She's our guest today, Dawn McCord. She's a fiercely loyal mom who's walked through one of the hardest journeys a parent can face.
Adolescent addiction. During the pandemic she wrote chasing Carson. A raw and powerful [00:01:00] memoir about her family's experience. Since then, she's become a family recovery life coach. Did I say that right?
Dawn McCord: Yes, absolutely.
Dinine Sig: And is now producing a documentary exploring the Truth about Wilderness Therapy. Is there something you might wanna add to my introduction beyond the titles and roles?
And it's okay if I did a good job, just
Dawn McCord: No, you did great. All right. No, that's great. And actually, when you just. You know, the first introduction, I'm like, and looking at you. 'cause a lot of times I'll do podcasts and they're on, you know, zoom, zoom or whatever. But being in person and, and, and you and I have had been in conversation for so long, I'm like, I almost teared up.
Like when you brought that up, I was like, oh yeah, it was hard like.
Dinine Sig: It's like, wait a second. I, I remember that was hard and I'm, you're, you know, I get that So well, um, again, glad to have you.
Dawn McCord: Thank you
Dinine Sig: for having me. So You're welcome. So can you take us back to the moment when you first realized your [00:02:00] family was, quote, unquote chasing Carson, which is the title of her book?
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: What was shifting under your feet?
Dawn McCord: Well, what was shifting under my feet was that, um, for both my husband and I, we. We were wondering, you know, adolescent teenage experimentation was starting to get a little, um, nutso, like just his boldness for, you know, it'd smell weed in the house or he'd go missing and so on and so forth.
And he was 15, you know, so, um, but the, the real turning point was when he, we ca we had just come home. I took him on a, his 16th birthday trip, which was a little late. Um, to visit my best friend in England and we were already, he was having, you know, just
Dinine Sig: episodes.
Dawn McCord: Rebellion.
Dinine Sig: Rebellion,
Dawn McCord: yeah. And I figured I couldn't leave him.
He shouldn't have gone to England with me. He should have stayed home. [00:03:00] But my other son was on a missions trip and, um, my husband had to work, so him being by himself all day, so that wasn't gonna happen. So it's the beginning of his sophomore year. And he's, it's like one week into the school year. And
Dinine Sig: I remember that
Dawn McCord: from the book.
Yeah. Yeah. And we go to dinner or dinner, go to lunch, you know, and with my parents so that the boys can tell them what, you know, their summer was like, you know, Jackson being in Haiti and Carson being in England with me, and, and he was just. A mess. And he was drooling on the floor at the local restaurant around here, and I'm like, something is up.
We gotta go. Sorry dad. And then, um, it ended up that him and some friends said, let's, you know, pool our money and we're gonna buy some Xanax. Which are the Xanax bars, you know, street Bar Street, Xanax.
Dinine Sig: I was going to ask you about that because in the book you talk [00:04:00] about Xan bars, and I only know Xanax as.
An anti-anxiety medication.
Dawn McCord: Right. So Zbars are the street term for Xanax, um, that it's processed. Um, I picture them because they way they create them. I mean, Lord only knows what other substances are in there. It is, it's not definitely prescribed. I, who knows? Um, but I, it looks like Pez. Like if you break 'em off, that's how I envision them.
And then like if you had a, in a old good old fashioned PS container kind of thing.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Dawn McCord: So Lord only knows what the potency is, but he, he's the kid that says, sure, I'll go buy that pool the money. And he couldn't wait for his friends. So he took one. And then the way Xanax works, it kind of gives you that blackout.
Um, and, and once you, well, especially for him, it worked this way. He always wanted to keep the high going, so he [00:05:00] took 'em all. So he took between six and eight Zan bars and was high for over 48 hours. And we, that's when the chasing
Dinine Sig: began,
Dawn McCord: really began.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. I, um,
Dawn McCord: we all, we all chased teenagers, but then this was, I mean, full fledged run.
Dinine Sig: Well, that's what I was about to say. Um, or ask, you've said your sons do it most. Teens do.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: But Carson's path turned sharply.
Dawn McCord: Yes.
Dinine Sig: And you just described part of that. What was it like navigating those early forks in the road? I detect from the book a sense of hope that this was just an episode. This was, and then all of a sudden, I don't want to give my view, but I saw a moment where you were like, no, this kid needs to be.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. Oh my gosh. You just gave me the chills.
Dinine Sig: Sorry. But when you were. Early navigating. Did you know, in London, for example, you're like, he shouldn't have went. You just said that before. Um, but we couldn't leave him [00:06:00] alone.
Dawn McCord: Um, did
Dinine Sig: you?
Dawn McCord: Well, it was that, and I say that in the book too, we're still in that throes before the Xanax situation, um, of, is this teenage experimentation?
Has it, is this normal boy activity, you know? Yeah. I'm, I'm an only child, um, in. You know, and a girl, my husband's one of four boys and he is kind of chill, so he wasn't too upset. You know, I'm more the disciplinarian, so I thought, well, like when we went to England, you know, kids are allowed to drink earlier.
That culture's just different there. So I allowed him to drink there too, thinking that I could teach him responsible how to do it responsibly and um, or have my friends. Help me.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: Teach him responsibility
Dinine Sig: for him to like view it and maybe absorb that just by watching. Oh, mom's out with friends. She's not gonna have 12 beer or 12.
Dawn McCord: Well, no, I let him drink.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Dawn McCord: That's how it [00:07:00] was. I don't even drink. I quit drinking at 18.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Dawn McCord: So when I, I quit drinking and drugging. I do
Dinine Sig: remember that now from the book. Okay.
Dawn McCord: I grew up with an alcoholic father who's passed on now. Though functional, um, that was what was different too, is that Carson, he was, you know, zero to 60.
He wasn't. Functional, I mean, it just quickly went non-functional.
Dinine Sig: I, I can relate to that in a sense. Um, when you, when I think of Carson's age, so, um, my brother, my late brother, he is no longer with us and not for this reason. It was a heart attack later on. But, um, early on, his drinking was never just a couple of drinks.
We do have alcohol, alcoholism in our family, but my mom was very controlled, so she would come home from work. And it was one vodka soda.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And maybe a second one. That was it.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: But it was every, almost every night. Mm-hmm. It was one vodka soda. And, um, my dad would drink sometimes and sometimes [00:08:00] not.
But my mom's father was a, I would call it a raging alcoholic ruining Christmas at times. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know if. I didn't get that sense from your book about your dad or people in your family, but we did have that rager sort of,
Dawn McCord: it depends on what my, as what my dad was drinking. He was, he was very disciplined, you know, military, um, German background.
He, you know, worked hard and played hard and, um, but through the years, I, you know, it did change his personality. When you're an active addiction, it does play a part on your personality, even though. You not, might not wake up in the morning and be drinking from morning till night until you pass out, but it's still, you know, active addiction is, it can, it can be just a couple drinks every single day.
Dinine Sig: And perhaps maybe I did see that, but what I, what struck me when you mentioned Carson and taking all of [00:09:00] it at once, when it was the original plan was let's test it out with friends. Right. My brother, after only drinking, I believe for a very short time. Would find a way to buy an entire case of beer.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And have it in his room.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: Uh, usually behind his bed.
Dawn McCord: Uh, teenager. As
Dinine Sig: a teenager. Yeah. Teenager. Yeah. I think 15, 16. Yeah. And, um, I didn't understand that. Like I didn't even drink at that age yet. Um, but I didn't understand why the, the case. But in reading Carson's story, I. I mean, I understand now 'cause I'm a grownup, but in reading Carson's story, I was reflected back to when I was a couple of years younger than him watching him.
Why do you need an entire case? He would party with friends too.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: But there would be times he would buy a case for himself of beer. And I just thought that sounds insane. Even at that early age. So I'm not saying [00:10:00] Carson's insane, I'm just saying I could see that.
Dawn McCord: It's, it's not, it's addiction's.
Insane. Yeah, that's what it's insidious. And you don't know how it's going to affect you, um, until you, you try it,
Dinine Sig: try it, it, right?
Dawn McCord: Yeah. So you don't know if you're going to, it's gonna take you, you know, eight to 10 years, or it's gonna take you 15 months because it, it just, it's all about biology and physiology and, and where it, it lives in the middle brain.
We have alcoholism, so my dad being functional, um, you know, provided well for the family, um, so on and so forth. Well, my husband's dad, um, was not functional. I mean, he, it was like an allergic reaction. One led to a bender, and that's the pattern we saw with Carson is that each time he experimented, 'cause he really liked that feeling and he wanted to keep that feeling going.
He. It would turn into a [00:11:00] pattern where he would have time of abstinence, and then he would go on a bender, like a three week bender where he would miss school, and we were chasing, chasing, chasing him. It'd end up in a crisis which then led to rehab, and then the pat then would go again. Pattern would go again until we finally.
You know, he finally, he's overdosed then.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: No more chasing. We have to get him outta here, so,
Dinine Sig: right. And that's why, why you're here today, the book and the documentary. So thanks for sharing that. Um, so you're a buck. Jason Carson was written during COVID.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And we all know, most of us have our own ideas about COVID.
It was a little different for me in New York City than I'm sure it was here in Indiana.
Dawn McCord: I bet.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. But it was horrific in that, um, there was a lot of isolation.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: Um, my question then is what was, um, that [00:12:00] experience, that global uncertainty, how did that. Sort of come out in the story or how do you think that affected, um, putting your family story on paper during that season of, I call it an isolation.
I know other people maybe had less isolation if they weren't in the heart of it in New York, but what do you think writing during that time added or didn't add? Like maybe you're like, it didn't make any difference to me, Denine, like the story is the story.
Dawn McCord: Um, it just gave me time because I couldn't work.
Um, I was a hairdresser and which I'm retired from now, and, um,
Dinine Sig: I know Christie's very upset about that, by the way. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Kris. Shout out to Christie Gainer yet again. Go ahead.
Dawn McCord: Yeah, I'm so sorry about that. Um, just my calling, you know, my call to do something else, I, that one thing is, is so I'm quite faithful and so my higher power is God and he just laid it on my heart all this time of chasing.
Person [00:13:00] to take pictures, take videos, and I just remembered scenarios like that happened that were like, they happened yesterday and when I couldn't work, I didn't work for nine weeks. I mean, they weren't. I finally went back, even when they said, well you know what hairdressers, you need to wait even more, a couple more weeks.
And I went, forget this. I need to work. So I just spent that time really just hammering it out. And I just, I had an idea. Um, and, and all I could say is the, the blessing for us is that I had time, I had time to put that pen to paper and to tell our story if, for, if for nothing else, just for my parents or for our immediate family, because I stopped sharing how bad it was.
Um, one, because I couldn't. Battle my parents parenting me while I'm chasing, you know, my husband and I'm chasing Carson. So, you know, and then, and [00:14:00] also we had another child too, who was at college and he was going through his own ish,
Dinine Sig: you know? Yes.
Dawn McCord: So,
Dinine Sig: yeah. And there was a point in the book where you discussed Jackson and a friend, um, potentially using heroin.
And as a mom reading that. My focus has always been on my daughter for the crazy escapades. My son, uh, was maybe still is a baseball player. He played last year at IU as a grad student, but prior to that at Gettysburg and high school and then middle school. So the baseball, I think always sort of leveled him out.
Mm-hmm. And then when he got to Gettysburg between the fraternity and the coach, there was so much asked of him that he did party, but it was. To be able to do the weightlifting sessions and whatever. It always felt like, I don't know, eve, I'm using my hand right now. Right. But like an even keel,
Dawn McCord: uh, it's kind of like that functional,
Dinine Sig: that it kept him functional.
Yeah. And I think during my husband's illness as well, um, [00:15:00] my daughter is the experimenter. She's the one that has no fear for her physical safety. Has been out on a limb and almost fell at least five or six times. Um, and so when you as a mom hearing you talk up right about Jackson's night with his friend, it really hurt me because I'm like.
I'm used to chasing gray. In a sense, it's a little different than with Carson. And, and the show is about you? Not necessarily my family dynamic, but I'm used to sort of looking out for her being extra worried. Mm-hmm. Chasing her. So like
Dawn McCord: you chase her. Yeah. There's just sometimes there's one kid. In a family and some families look out and don't have to chase any of 'em.
Right. But one kid that just is more of a risk taker,
Dinine Sig: she's, that's exactly
Dawn McCord: fearless.
Dinine Sig: That's exactly it. And even when I thought everything was calm, my friends were laughing because her friend is getting her pilot license. And this is a kid I've known since sixth grade. [00:16:00] And she just said to me, don't look for me on the 20th through the 21st.
'cause Courtney is getting a plane and flying into Bloomington and then we're flying back to Purdue and then we're gonna party. And then Courtney's flying me back and I was like, almost on the floor. Yeah. So like even though when things are calm, she'll find a way to up the ante. Mm-hmm. But getting back to the book, reading, that part made me so upset for you as a mom.
All of it. Obviously as a mom we could feel it. It would be like if I'm in the throes of an episode with Gray and my son Cole, who I consider my steady one, came home with that same scenario or something similar. I think for me, there's been so many hard times where I don't give up. That might be a night that I'm like, okay, I'm done.
Dawn McCord: Yeah,
Dinine Sig: I'm out. So I don't know. Like you didn't write that here. But I, I want, and I didn't even put it down as a question, but it was in my [00:17:00] mind, and you brought it up just by bringing something up. What do you think when you think about that specific night, what do you see? What I'm sense like feeling about it?
Do you, like you, you're chasing Carson and then Jackson has an episode. His friend has a very dangerous Like in
Dawn McCord: our household. Yeah,
Dinine Sig: in your house. I just feel like that's the night I go, okay, God, you know what? Like take me out. I'm done. Yeah. Like I am. 'cause it Did it shock you as much as it shocked me as a reader or,
Dawn McCord: yeah, well especially with Jackson.
When he came it was, I think he was just, his first time home from school, he was freshman at Purdue and, and he come and I tell him, no, come home. We're having family dinner. And he walks through and goes in to get a drink. 'cause we're sitting outside and. Projectile vomits all over, you know, the porch. That
Dinine Sig: was the first clue.
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: But then later on with his friend like that,
Dawn McCord: later on
Dinine Sig: that night, I think you still had hope when he just [00:18:00] vomited. Like, I hope it's just right. Mm-hmm. Yes. Am I, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but then I think when his friend, I was like, I almost closed the book. I was like, I can't do this with her.
I
Dawn McCord: know
Dinine Sig: I can't do this. And I, like I said, I've been through some ish in my life. Yes. And um, but.
Dawn McCord: It is, it's, well, I was like, Carson was asleep, he was gonna go to school, so Carson was asleep. He comes out and he's at least not high, and I, I was more like, am I allowed to swear on here?
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: Okay. I was like, what the fuck?
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: You know, God knows, I swear like a sailor, but God, I say that. I literally,
Dinine Sig: I
Dawn McCord: say that too. Yes. Like I say, but, but that's one thing is sometimes that's the. This is gritty. Addiction is gritty and, and drugs today are so, since the opiate crisis, they're so pervasive and our young kids, it's not something that we might stumble upon in our twenties.
Kids can be 15 years [00:19:00] old and find it and get it.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: I'm like, and so, and you know what? At that time when it was Jackson's friend that was overdosing on her couch. I didn't think I, I really didn't think that Jackson was partaking in that, but I really now know he did. Like, because it was always gonna gonna be, that's good because it was, it was heroin,
Dinine Sig: right?
Dawn McCord: And I was like, well, my kids know better. Like, persons hadn't gotten to that point yet. And I'm like, my, my kids know better. But then I'm like, no, I was just fooling myself.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. Like they'll drink, but they're not gonna do heroin.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. They're gonna smoke pot
Dinine Sig: and Right. Or they're gonna smoke or vape. Yeah.
But they're not gonna do heroin and then, right. That's why I am saying, as a mom, that would be almost a checkout time for me where I'd be like, I can't do this. Like I just, my steady one is now on heroin. Like I know that that didn't occur to you and maybe that's protective of God. Yeah. That you were not necessarily [00:20:00] knowing at that moment it was Jackson two and just focused on his friend.
Because I just think it's almost too much in one. Time span, that's all. Yeah, that's what I, I guess, and I don't, it's my own, I don't wanna keep projecting my own feelings, but that's what I felt. And I did have to put the book down for probably two weeks after that night and then I came back to it. Um, I've
Dawn McCord: had other people say that too
Dinine Sig: that night as well.
Dawn McCord: Well, I don't think it maybe in that spot, but just, it's just a lot. Like
Dinine Sig: certain moments.
Dawn McCord: Just certain moments. It's just a lot. And,
Dinine Sig: and I just wanna say for us, two women. We have a lot.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: We have a lot going on. So if you think it's a lot for you, I'm saying to you, I had to put the book down, but there are people in my life that at times have to put the book of my life down.
Yes. But if you think it's a lot for you, think of what it's like for the people living, whether it's a long-term illness that destabilizes everything, you know, in your family and your kids are de like, you know? It [00:21:00] is a lot. It's a lot when your kid is addicted and you're going through that. But I just, this, this, our society with the whole, it's a lot.
Think about the people that they're, they're going through it. Mm. And it, it just is, it's astounding to me how, how many people are living things that, like, I'm reading your life and if you read my life, you might be like, yeah, I gotta put this book down, but I'm reading your life. And I'm like, I gotta put the, I need a break from this for a second.
And I wonder, just in general, our society will, we're quick to. Go. Yeah. That's a lot of, you're so strong and, but like no one chooses, we don't go, Hey, we wanna be strong. Give us the toughest
Dawn McCord: Right.
Dinine Sig: Battle. Right, right. Yeah. So, um, and that may be another show about faith and,
Dawn McCord: yeah. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I question mine a lot and I have a lot of walks that I have to do through it, but.
Okay, so thank you for answering that as well. When you think about the space in between the show you're on today, thank you. I'm sure [00:22:00] you can think of some moments when you went from hairdresser mom to mom of an addict, right? It kind of is a bridge. I went from a healthy family. I call myself a Prewitt during that time.
Mm-hmm. Because I was told very quickly there was no treatment, no cure.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And then almost widow. And then widow. Mm-hmm. And there's, it's like, it was a slower transition for me, but I know, I know what my life was like before that title came at me hard.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: So when you think of yourself, hairdresser, wife, mom, to mom of an addict.
I'm curious, what emotions surfaced for you in the writing when you realized that bridge had been crossed, and then a secondary question, was it healing retraumatizing or liberating, maybe all of the above to write about that story. And it's [00:23:00] what I'm trying to ask is when did you know you had bridged.
That in between space. So I'm, I'm saying a lot and you transition to something different.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: So realizing it, if I can go back, 'cause I, I might have confused you. Is it retraumatizing to write about it or is it healing to write about, like, you know, now you've made that bridge, you're the mom of an addict.
Mm-hmm. I wonder if you feel like you will be that way forever? Um, because I have heard addicts say. They're an addict forever. Mm-hmm. They're always in recovery. Mm-hmm. And you could add to that, I, I know very little about this, but I know you know a lot, but when you've crossed the bridge, you've written about it.
What do you think about your space in between, or what do you think about the new moniker as you put it on to write?
Dawn McCord: So I would say it was cathartic to write it. Um, and.
It, [00:24:00] it wasn't retraumatizing. However, I need to, I have read bits and pieces since I've done all my proofing, um, but I haven't read it from front to back. Wow. Since, since I did all my editing and my copywriting and my proofing. I've read pieces of it because like if I was on a show or something like that, or on and.
And I know the stories, you know, because, but, but you know, that's what's kind of good is that your memory can get a little fuzzy, which I think helps with the trauma of it. Um,
Dinine Sig: 100%.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. I
Dinine Sig: believe that's a gift. That would
Dawn McCord: be, yeah, that is a gift.
Dinine Sig: Because don't they say about childbirth?
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: That if you remembered, you would never have your second.
Dawn McCord: Right.
Dinine Sig: So it's probably the same thing.
Dawn McCord: Right. So I know I need to read it. Probably a couple times before the documentary comes out, because if it shows more [00:25:00] of our story in the documentary, that's gonna be really hard. You know, when you're putting it, you're then, then I'm gonna be reliving it. So, um, yeah, the, the good thing is with being a coach now, and there's that in between, um, and I, you know, worked for two plus years for the recovery center.
And I ran parent support groups and family support groups, and I got to talk about it a lot in, in a sense, um, that, that helps. So processing as much as you can. So like talking like this, it does help some people. Some of my friends and my pastor friends are like, you know, you don't have to keep living this over and over and over again.
You know, like, it's like the trauma. And I said, I, I do, and I appreciate the care there, and I totally, I understand and I won't because I follow what, you know, what God is telling me. So [00:26:00] I'm gonna be like, forced gum. I, I'm gonna run, run, run, and do what he tells me. Follow this. Then when I'm stopped, when he tells me to stop, I'll go do something else.
Okay. You know, I'll, I'll run a different direction, you know, who knows. But right now that's, it's led to this. So that's part of the, in the in between. I also wanna say about the space in between, um, is what was the hardest part, is the in-between episodes. So episodes of him being sober. We're, we're on a, we're going like, maybe we've gotten through this to where, oh no, it's ramping up again.
The also the time when he's, you know, 30, he's not coming home and we have to find another place for him and then we have to transport him to another place. And that space in between thinking that he's going to just leave or run or not [00:27:00] continue on with this treatment and he's gonna be homeless. And what if he chooses that?
It's the space in between. I kept just waiting for the next Okay. We made it through that way. Uh, we made it through that part. Okay. I got him finally back into rehab. Okay. We just dropped him off at Wilderness, you know, all these different places. And then moving him from wilderness to his sober living program before, um, you know, right before COVID lockdown.
I could probably breathe. I'm like, it was COVID lockdown, you know? And he is, you know, 1300 miles away. I'm like, I can breathe. You know? Um, '
Dinine Sig: cause you felt like you had gotten to a certain point and he was safe.
Dawn McCord: Safe. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I say that in quotes, guys. Air quotes. Yes. Because none of us is ever guaranteed safety.
Dawn McCord: Right.
Dinine Sig: Um,
Dawn McCord: I mean, at any time he could have walked away from there and he is 1300 miles away. Get that, you know, so you still, until you get some time under your belt where you can feel [00:28:00] comfortable and, and I've had to do my own work as well, you know, of processing through it and being okay with the space in between.
I mean, I have to say that you have to be okay with the space in between, and that could be sitting in uncomfortableness.
Dinine Sig: I, I believe it is. A lot of the time.
Dawn McCord: Yeah,
Dinine Sig: a lot of the time. So thank you for that. Um, yeah. Were there any stories or moments, whether in between or during that you almost didn't include in the book, and what made you decide to tell them anyway?
Dawn McCord: So there was one that I wish I would've included, but my editor, um, said, what, what's, is it relevant? And I'm like, obviously maybe she's not really, or he or the team.
Dinine Sig: Yeah,
Dawn McCord: actually, 'cause I had a publishing company, but. I'm like, really? So it was this one. It's one of my favorite songs. It's from, um, um, oh my gosh.
The Christian band. Um, God only [00:29:00] knows it's called God Only Knows.
Dinine Sig: Oh.
Dawn McCord: Oh my goodness. Um, help me. Oh my God. I know.
Dinine Sig: I'm thinking right now. So I'm, God only knows what I've been through. Yeah. Yeah.
Dawn McCord: For King and Country.
Dinine Sig: Okay. I'm like, I can't think of it.
Dawn McCord: Sorry guys because I follow you. They even, one of, we even, they came and spoke at church or it must've been on Zoom during COVID or something like that, but.
Oh my goodness. Yes, they're my, one of my favorite bands. But I wanted, I just wrote the whole lyrics, asked for permission, and then my writer, my copywriter or whatever, said, you know, do you really need it? And I'm like, I should have, I should have just left it in there.
Dinine Sig: So still now you feel like it should be?
Mm-hmm. Okay. Well, I wonder like maybe a supplement at some point, maybe supplement. 'cause law law schools used to add stuff in the front of the book instead of reprinting. The whole book. So they would be like, you have to buy the supplement for back then. Oh, $15, $10. And then they would put the new law in the front.
Oh. Sometimes to save money in [00:30:00] between texts. So,
Dawn McCord: so there, there, and I have to say, so you, and you alluded to it, so you have read in between the lines about Jackson. I have left Jackson out as much as possible except for where he's helped with Carson. Um, because he is got his own story, um, and his own journey, and when he's ready to speak it, you know, then I
Dinine Sig: That's fair.
Dawn McCord: That's
Dinine Sig: fair.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. That's, those are the parts that I did not elaborate on, but I, you read between the lines.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. That's fair. Thank you. Um, how did your relationship with Carson evolve? As you were writing the book, or did it, or was it already, I know you had already brought him to Sober Living, I think that's when you came back and started writing.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: But how did your relationship evolve at all, if at all, during the book? And if it didn't, if it had already gotten to a certain point, that's fine too. Don't,
Dawn McCord: yeah. No, he, because [00:31:00] he's a mama's boy and he, and I think that was half the battle during adolescence is trying to separate from me and. I don't wanna be a mama's boy.
But now with, because he is had plenty of therapy. He's a full-fledged mama's boy kind thing. We were very close.
Dinine Sig: I love that.
Dawn McCord: But to the point where he is like, mom, it's time for you and dad to move out here. And this was like right when he was still in sober living and I said, oh no, Carson, not until you're probably 30, should we be within a hundred miles of each other because it's not good for me and it's not good for you.
We c become enmeshed and he laughed. He knew it because he had been through the therapy of it all.
Dinine Sig: Wow.
Dawn McCord: Um, so he, um, okay. I lost my train of thought. So tell me, sorry.
Dinine Sig: He, um, he asked you to move out and you were like not
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: For, but I was asking you how did your relationship evolve?
Dawn McCord: Right. And so he, as
Dinine Sig: you were writing
Dawn McCord: Okay.
So he didn't know I was writing it
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Dawn McCord: Until we went out to visit him for the first time, which was, he'd been in sober living for six months. And so we moved [00:32:00] him, um, in February and we got there in middle of August and I brought him the manuscript, what I had so far, and I, and I thought, he's 19 years old, he is not gonna read it.
I said, I need you or I want you to read this. 'cause this is, I, I've written our story, but it's your story. And um, so I need, you know, if you approve it, I wanna continue on. And so it probably took him about a month, but he stayed up all night and read it and. He approved it and then he later came home at Christmas time.
So yeah. And so
Dinine Sig: from August to Christmas,
Dawn McCord: August to Christmas, he came home for like two days. At Christmas time he was still in programming, um, in sober living. And he wrote the, his, his piece of it.
Dinine Sig: Wow.
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: That's amazing. Thank you. You are
Dawn McCord: welcome.
Dinine Sig: So, as you know a little bit about [00:33:00] me, I'm a widow.
Dawn McCord: Yes.
Dinine Sig: My husband was sick for many years. It was a grueling marathon of, it only gets worse from here.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: The doctors told me the day that he was diagnosed, this will be his best day. There is no treatment, there is no cure. It's very different from the cancer world where I spent a lot of time and possibly at the addiction world where there's a fight, fight, fight.
We can do this, we can put them here. Mm-hmm. We can, whatever. So, um. And it was like, it only gets worse from here and it ends in death. So it doesn't get any better until it gets far, far worse. And then it gets to the rock, absolute rock bottom. Um, my mantra during those times, 'cause there were times the anxiety nearly killed me.
Dawn McCord: Mm.
Dinine Sig: Um, my daughter was seven when my husband was diagnosed. Um, on repeat was all is well.
Dawn McCord: Mm,
Dinine Sig: everything's okay. It's going to be okay. [00:34:00] And that was something I said to myself on repeat from the moment my eyes opened in the morning. 'cause there were some mornings I didn't want my eyes to open. I just really was exhausted and not exhausted in the sense that you probably get it.
Dawn McCord: Oh yeah.
Dinine Sig: Just too much of all of it. Um, it's
Dawn McCord: just too much. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: And you mentioned using the word, okay. Mm-hmm. As a coping mechanism. Can you share more about, I just shared a little bit about what my practice looked like. Everything's okay. It's going to be okay. Mm-hmm. All is what, and it was sort of on repeat.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: Um, can you share more about what that looked like for you in practice? Okay. You do a little bit. In our pre-interview you sort of said, when something happens, I say, okay.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: But especially during a moment of crisis, how does Okay. Help you?
Dawn McCord: And, you know, I, I don't know where it ended up coming from except for one of my dear friends.
Um, [00:35:00] she got blindsided with a divorce and at the same time she was recovering from ACL surgery and I was, I brought her lunch and went laying in bed and while she's icing, and she was just still just heartbroken and just broken. And it came to me to say, you know what? Okay, we can't. I said, let, how about we just start with, okay, this has happened.
Okay. How am I gonna move forward? Okay. I can't make him want to be with me. Okay. And then that just started with me too. When, when I've started, when we first started chasing Carson, or both boys. As teenagers, I would fly off the handle and thinking that discipline berating them would get them to stop, okay mom, I'm gonna stop, you know, sneaking outta the house [00:36:00] and all that.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: But, and then as it got worse and I'm like, I needed something to keep me from flying off the handle and flooding and, um, you know, that fight, um, flight freeze thing.
Dinine Sig: Yes.
Dawn McCord: So it just was okay. And then I found. That if I said okay and sat down, I could take a deep breath and go, okay, this is the situation at hand.
How are we gonna get through this? I've got to remain calm for myself, for my husband, because if not the whole, everybody just gets outta control.
Dinine Sig: Tilt a wheel.
Dawn McCord: It's a tilt a wheel.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: And I just, and I, and I, I now coach on that and say, okay. So it's like, and then Mel Robbins,
Dinine Sig: I've, that was my next cut.
Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna
Dawn McCord: say that she comes out this year with,
Dinine Sig: let them
Dawn McCord: let them, and I'm like,
Dinine Sig: okay. So I just wanna deviate for a second. Yeah. I, I love and hate Mel Robbins and I wanna explain why when I was at a very low point with my husband, where I. [00:37:00] The paralysis. He wasn't paralyzed technically, but his disease is very similar to a LS mixed with Parkinson's.
So paralysis sets in and you lose. First it's just your arm, but you can still do this. Then you can't do your hands anymore, then you can't even lift. It's paralyzed. And my kids were sort of, it was two years in, they were really losing their patience with all of it. Didn't fully understand. Um. And, um, her voice came on Instagram before I ever saw her face or knew who she was.
And it was, no one's coming, no one's coming to save you. Do you remember that meme? And it was like, you gotta turn off the tv. No one's gonna turn off the tv. You've gotta get yourself up. No one's coming. And I remember, who is this woman? I dislike her so much because. The last thing I want to hear when I'm so utterly alone and broken is no [00:38:00] one's coming.
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: And that's my, I just had to share like, that's my love hate with Mel Robbins because let them, and I'm gonna get into my next question, is a great way to go forward, but the no one's coming. Mm-hmm. I still get triggered when I hear it.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. So, 'cause you're feeling so alone. Yeah. So that must have been with her first book or something about how she was trying to figure out.
Possibly how to, um, like get outta bed and what the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 or
Dinine Sig: something like that? Yeah. And I think it was related to that, but initially all I heard, I didn't even see her face yet. It was like people were using it over text on Instagram and it was like, no one's coming. Mm-hmm. No one's coming. And I was like, stop woman.
Who, whoever you are. I
Dawn McCord: know.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. Um, now I know who she is. Yeah. But, um, so. We've talked about Mel Robbins right here, um, and the let them theory and of course no one's coming. Let's not go into that. Um, and using radical acceptance. Yes. Um, how do you think those ideas [00:39:00] intersect with the experience of parenting through addiction?
The radical acceptance, the Let Them, if you like, no one's coming, can't stand that one. But how do you think.
Dawn McCord: Well, uh, he was a minor, um, until he turned 18. And if let them would've come out you, you can't. So that's one of the biggest things is um, I could sever my relationship with my father when he acted a being a butt.
Um, I, in fact, I've uninvited him to Thanksgiving dinners, um, one time. 'cause he was just on a terror. And I'm like, yeah, no.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Dawn McCord: You know, I just can't,
Dinine Sig: but with the kid,
Dawn McCord: with the kid, you can't do it. And so when I, I could shut myself off, I can just go, Hmm, nope, not gonna do that. I don't do addiction. So you have a kid that hasn't and you can't, I tried, I tried to channel that.
I don't care. I tried to channel that disconnection just so I can look [00:40:00] at it, you know, from a very, you know, logical standpoint. It, you know,
Dinine Sig: you
Dawn McCord: can't, it's unnatural. It's unnatural because, and then the radical acceptance is, I don't think that, I've still done the radical acceptance. My radical acceptance is that he is an addict.
Um, he is in recovery. Anything could trigger him. It could happen again, because that's what the disease of addiction is. I, I, that is my radical acceptance. My, I do not, I still can't. Say, my radical acceptance is going to be that he could die. It, it's still not, I'm still not an option.
Dinine Sig: So I, I also have had this question posed to me as a parent of, again, my daughter, who at times takes chances and I've had many, another friend, coworker, family member say, just let her and let [00:41:00] her experience the consequences.
And I'm like, but when it comes to what she might be doing. She could, the consequence could be she's not alive tomorrow.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And it could be like getting in a plane. Mm-hmm. You know, it's not always drug related, but I mean, she does things on the edge of life and I'm like, the consequences are she could be dead.
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I'm not willing to let that happen. So this is a follow up, like how do we as moms, how do we navigate trying to set up consequences because they do learn from consequences. But needing to protect them from something that could be final. We don't want their next mistake to be final. I know you don't from listening to you, and I don't, and that's a boundary I don't think I can set.
And it sounds like you can't either.
Dawn McCord: No. So I just know how to do it healthy now, and I know, um, you know, I would still, I would still be there [00:42:00] and supportive. But I won't be able to, so I talk about it when I'm in support groups. The hamster wheel. I can't get on the hamster wheel anymore.
Dinine Sig: Okay?
Dawn McCord: So I, it's not an option for either of my children to die before me.
It's just not an option. However, that I know that there are things that are out of my control, and the older they get, they have their own free will. And that's where do I have to accept that? Yes. Um, but I can't dwell on it.
Dinine Sig: Right?
Dawn McCord: Because if I dwell on it, then I'm, I get myself. Then I've just gone back on the hamster wheel of the chasing, chasing, chasing, chasing.
Dinine Sig: So there is a boundary that you set. But it's not the, let them, let them do whatever they want. It's, I'm, I'm not gonna get on the hamster wheel, but I'm gonna find a healthy way. Right. To get involved. And that, go ahead.
Dawn McCord: Yeah. Oh, I was just gonna say, so [00:43:00] the, let them, let them be whoever they want to be is great, but the boundary is let them, doesn't mean.
You can be an ass to me, you can talk to me bad, you can treat anybody else bad. Like there's still, there's still integrity, you know? So I, as your mom will still say, do you think that's a good idea? You know?
Dinine Sig: Right.
Dawn McCord: Or don't you think you might've, you know, Carson, the risk taker. Um, loves to, now that he's in Utah, you know, climb and, and repel and go into abandoned minds.
And he went into an abandoned mind. I said, did you tell one of your roommates that you were here? No. But I wore my helmet. Oh my God. And he goes, and I've got my gun because in case I meet a mountain lion, it's abandoned mine. And I'm like, okay, you, you know, no signal down there. What if you would've broken your shoulder?
I'm like, I showed you 127 minutes. That movie, [00:44:00] um, when you were probably 11 so serious. And he's like, mom, you know, that's just. That's just them, but
Dinine Sig: Right.
Dawn McCord: I, I'm not gonna not, I'm not gonna sit there and go, oh, that was nice honey. Pumpkin. What? Butt?
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Dawn McCord: No, I'm gonna say dude.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Dawn McCord: Come on.
Dinine Sig: No, I get that. I get that.
So that probably leads us into like, um, you decided to change the way, um, you approach life. You became a family life recovery coach.
Dawn McCord: Yes.
Dinine Sig: Um, can you tell us a little bit about that and can you help us understand the difference? And sort of a very, I don't wanna say quick, but like, um, just a really high level, not in the nitty gritty
Dawn McCord: mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: Between social worker, therapist, recovery coach.
Dawn McCord: Okay. Oh yeah, I could do that. So coaches are life coaches. Any life coach and a coach in general is about deepening the learning and forwarding the action so we can identify. That there might be a [00:45:00] trauma. There's a, there's things in the past. That's when we refer to a therapist.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Dawn McCord: Um, so then the therapist would work with you and then, you know, the ideal thing was then you would see a coach in relation to substance use disorder, an addiction. I work with the family, um, to be their loved one's Best chance at recovery and. Without being attached to the outcome. Meaning whether they use, whether they don't use, whether they stay in recovery, whether they relapse is, you know, how to walk alongside them without, you know, pulling them or pushing them, you know, or helicoptering over 'em.
But how to, and you know, and for your own self-care, does that look like walking alongside them? You know, closely, or does it look like 1300 miles away? Like my son is right to us. So for coaching, [00:46:00] um, we are, um, we, the same thing with counselors, I think, and therapists would do the same thing, is that we tried to pull it out of, you know, what's best for you.
We just need to, we're trying to get a shift in mindset, okay. So that you can. Get out of the worry. You can get off the hamster wheel. You can love them and you could be in a loving relationship with them. You can love them without being attached to what they do. Remember free will. That's
Dinine Sig: so, that's more of like what a coach does, kind of helps the family and perhaps even the addicted person themselves sort of see.
A way through and sort of from your background, you know, a way through.
Dawn McCord: Yes.
Dinine Sig: And you're gonna share that?
Dawn McCord: Yes.
Dinine Sig: That's a little different, I guess, than a social worker, a therapist, or obviously a doctor.
Dawn McCord: Right. And, and so coaches do, especially recovery. Coaches do [00:47:00] share their lived experience. We have lived experience.
Okay. So when it comes to substance use disorder, there's different life coaches for different things. But when it comes to addiction, it's, we definitely share our. Our life, our life's journey. We, we know we've walked it.
Dinine Sig: Got it.
Dawn McCord: So,
Dinine Sig: no, I get it. That's amazing. So, and I appreciate the difference in the sort of trying to categorize each person.
Um,
Dawn McCord: so can I say, and you can, you know, edit this out, everyone edit it, but social workers a lot of times will help the person that is struggling with whatever, um, to get services and to, you know, we'll do that too. Um. You know, so then a psychotherapist is gonna help you with trauma. And not that a social worker couldn't help you with trauma, it just depends on what their licensure is.
And then coaches don't help with trauma. That's, that's definitely for, for a therapist. So I just, that's, that helps.
Dinine Sig: I appreci I appreciate the distinction. Thank you. Um, [00:48:00] so, um, I'm sure at times in your life as a recovery coach, um, you're coming across parents. That are maybe in the exact position you were in back then, what do you most want them to hear?
Maybe there's a parent listening right now that is right where you were at a certain point in this book in your life, in the book of your life. Uh, what do you most want it them to hear?
Dawn McCord: Uh, to not be fearful of letting them get the help that they need. Um, and helping them, especially if they're a minor.
You as a parent, you have to, until they're 18, you know, chase them, run interference, throw, stop, sticks out, speed bumps. You just have to, um, and it's gonna be hard on you. Do your own work, do your own self-care. Talk to a therapist. When they get to be 18, you need to kind of [00:49:00] retreat a little bit. You could still be emotionally supportive, but depending on what their issue is.
Um, it, it might look like they about having their own experience. They have to, if we always are there to rescue them or make it easier for them, they, it will undermine their abilities because they, the human spirit is amazing and they can do it. So parents let them, sorry Mel, but let them 18 and over.
Figure it out. Um, you can give advice, but you know what? Ask them. Um, don't just give it, ask them. Say, you know, would you like my opinion right now? Or, would you like my advice right now? Or Would you like me just to listen right now?
Dinine Sig: That's, I think that's key.
Dawn McCord: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: I sometimes forget that, and I think that's a great thing that you just said.
Would you like my advice? Would you like me to just [00:50:00] listen? And you said a third thing.
Dawn McCord: Or would you like my opinion?
Dinine Sig: Opinion?
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I like,
Dawn McCord: what are you looking for right now when you're telling me all
Dinine Sig: this? I like that. I like that. Um,
Dawn McCord: what did we, we It's parenting. We when when you've been parenting for 18 years, especially for a young adult, we, it's a habit.
Dinine Sig: Yes.
Dawn McCord: Okay. We're constantly parenting, so we have to learn how to be in recovery from parenting. Yeah. So, and one of the things I joke about is. Hi, I'm Dawn and I'm a recovering parent. You know, like I
Dinine Sig: like that.
Dawn McCord: So I'm, it's okay to let go. I
Dinine Sig: like that. Let go. I like that.
Dawn McCord: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: Let go. What is something Carson has taught you that you didn't know about yourself before this?
Maybe there's a whole bunch, but what is some one thing you could share with us that you learned through him, through dealing with him through?
Dawn McCord: Hmm. I don't think that question's ever been posed to me. Um, I. I would say it's [00:51:00] trust. To trust that they are capable and they have the capacity. Um, you know, I know mental health and substance use is an issue and, and neurodiversity, but they are capable at whatever level they are.
Dinine Sig: And that's something he taught you?
Dawn McCord: Yeah. And not by saying, mom, I'm capable, but by saying, I've got this, I can do this. And, and, uh, and
Dinine Sig: showing you, I guess
Dawn McCord: I, and showing me and looking for those little bits of, of, ooh, that was a good adulting thing. You know, like,
Dinine Sig: I find myself looking for those too. Mm-hmm.
Like, oh, she just mentioned that she's not gonna buy that ridiculous pair of boots because she wants to get this in two weeks. Like, oh my gosh, something went through. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, yay,
Dawn McCord: yay,
Dinine Sig: yay for our kids growing up a little. Um, so I think you've already answered that. So I'm gonna move. This is [00:52:00] sort of, um, the mission on this show.
The space in between is to find light and dark moments and life's transitional moments. What does Dawn McDon McCord find light in now?
Dawn McCord: Hmm. I'm not gonna lie. Um, it took, it took since he's been gone. It, it took a while to get my joy back. It took, it takes a while. It's, so you have to keep putting one foot in front of the other.
Um, and then when, when you see it creep back in, you'll, you'll know it. And mine was when I found myself kind of swaying to some music and I hadn't done that. I've just been kind of going through life because I know I need to keep putting one foot in front of the other and I'm like, oh, I think my, I think I just got a little, my joy back.
That's
Dinine Sig: amazing.
Dawn McCord: It is
Dinine Sig: amazing.
Dawn McCord: So my light now, um, [00:53:00] and I know, you know, again, I talked about my higher power back then. I, I just kept on saying, God. Gimme the strength because I can't, or just give me a billboard or give me something that shows me that he's gonna be okay. And it was complete trust in that someone else, someone something bigger has got, got this and knows what's on the other side.
Um, and I just, it kept me being forced Gump, you know, keep going, keep going, keep going. Um,
Dinine Sig: so would you say Joy is. Finding that new aspect to your relationship with God joy is swaying to music. The light you find is in those things, or is there just light in knowing that it's going to be okay or feeling right now.
Right, because no one's guaranteed.
Dawn McCord: Right.
Dinine Sig: Tomorrow. That it's going to be okay today, that today is gonna be okay. What, and I don't [00:54:00] wanna paraphrase for you, but you said a few things, so
Dawn McCord: Yeah, no, I, I love that it kind of circles me back around. So I do do one day at a time, 'cause I've always been one of my strengths, but it's a fault too, is being a futuristic person.
So I'm always thinking three months, six months ahead and through him. That's another thing he taught me, is to live one day at a time. So yes, I have to understand that bills need to be paid and goals need to, you know, blah, blah, blah, but live in the moment
Dinine Sig: and that's where you find the light.
Dawn McCord: That's where I find the light.
Okay? It's to live for today. Being present with you in this podcast right now, instead of thinking about, oh yeah, I got another call it. Free through. Right. You know, like,
Dinine Sig: or I've gotta meet so-and-so tomorrow. Yeah. And I don't have the shoes for that dress.
Dawn McCord: Right,
Dinine Sig: right. Okay. I really appreciate that, Don. Um, so that's my conversation with Don.
If you like the show, um, you know, hit us up. Follow us, ine sig.com. Give us a like or follow. Dawn's gonna [00:55:00] have a bunch of resources where you can find her book and the documentary. Which I think we're gonna have to have her back on for.
Dawn McCord: Yes,
Dinine Sig: we do need to
Dawn McCord: talk more
Dinine Sig: about that. Yes, we run over time today.
Um, and, uh, we'll have the list in the show notes, but if you like the show, give us a like and a follow. Thanks so much for listening today. I. We'll talk to you soon.
Dawn McCord: Thanks, Denine. Thank you.
Dinine Sig: Thank you so much for joining me today. Remember that even in your worst days, there is always something beautiful. You just need to look for it. Until next time.