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What could the future of primary education look like? How we can take things from where they are now and improve them to make the situation better for the pupils, for the teachers and for everybody involved in primary education?
In each episode, Ed Finch will be talking to guests within the educational field to talk about how things are, how we want them to be and the actions we can take to get them from here to there.
[00:00:00] Ed Finch: You're listening to the Primary Futures podcast from Hamilton Brookes, a podcast about the big ideas and big questions in primary education, brought to you in partnership with Oxford Brookes University.
What does authentic and meaningful representation look like? This is the key question that my guest, Bukky Yusuf, explores in this episode. Bukky is an author, leadership coach and public speaker who's passionate about leadership development and the need for representation of diversity within education. Let's join the conversation where I ask Bukky what she sees in schools that brings her joy.
[00:00:40] Bukky Yusuf: Oh, the positive impact that we have on the young people that we teach and that, I work in a special school as I've shared in other platforms and we have young people who have been out of mainstream for various reasons, okay and therefore not really part of a school society and when you see how young people who have been out of a school community just, come together, you see their confidence grow lesson by lesson, day by day. You see how they interact with others. and some of the, friendships that are formed and the rapport they establish with, like staff and the school community. That brings me a lot of joy, it's magical. So by the end of the academic year, you, know, like you start off with a disparate community of young people who don't really know each other, but then the end of the academic year it's a school community and it's just lovely.
[00:01:36] Ed Finch: It's alchemy, isn't it? It's magic.
[00:01:38] Bukky Yusuf: It is!
[00:01:38] Ed Finch: And it's all about belonging, I think.
[00:01:40] Bukky Yusuf: Yes, belonging, being valued, being, accepted for who you are. I think that's really important, not just for the young people, but for staff as well.
[00:01:50] Ed Finch: I was just speaking to a colleague on my way in this morning who was saying that the college she works at has cut all the drama because they can't source a drama teacher and they've cut all the music because they can't find a music teacher and that means the after school samba band has gone. I'm like, what does this do to the soul of the school? How do they talk about their school culture if they've got no culture, if they're happy to drop these things?
[00:02:14] Bukky Yusuf: And it depresses me because what you're seeing over the years and I've been in education for over 20 years, I'm glad to have been and seen the various changes, the highlights and the low, like, I think it's just the core focus on getting the exam results, not so much, and obviously, you've got over the years, the wellbeing agenda and more recently about mental health and wellbeing, but I just think some of it operates as though it's in isolation. It's not cohesive. I think you get some conversations and some institutions that forget that you're dealing with a whole person, the young people and staff included and you can't compartmentalise and I just think that where you said about the fact that, there's a reduction of art, the art cultures, all those other aspects that will allow us to tap into our creativity and what brings us joy. I think that's really important. And I...
[00:03:06] Ed Finch: We want staff who bring their whole self to work.
[00:03:08] Bukky Yusuf: Absolutely, yeah, as anyone can, yeah and also the students, where possible as well I think that's really important, or at least have, they know that there's an avenue if it's not during the, you know, like the formalised hours but maybe after school or before school maybe part of say school events like concerts and things like that there's an opportunity for them to shine.
[00:03:28] Ed Finch: Yeah, because you do wonder about that, don't you go, if we're looking at a time when, absence is at an all time high, apparently, in a lot of schools and you go, well, why is that then? And is it because young people are saying, this school doesn't represent me, or I'm not represented, or I don't feel there's something here for me?
[00:03:49] Bukky Yusuf: I think there are multiple things. They've opted out, they don't feel valued, the curriculum is not purposeful for them. But I think also we need to talk about the fact that there is some impact, regarding the cost of living. the cost of living crisis were actually happening and I remember having a conversation and I mean, albeit it was quite a while, this is last year where you had some school leaders who were saying where you've got, say, siblings within one family, none of them would actually come to school for the full week because they were sharing things like uniform or what have you, or taking, having responsibilities of helping out at home, things like that and I think those conversations are never really spoken about, So yeah, there are many significant reasons why young people opt out. Mental health, for example and and I think quite frankly, some students who during the lockdown, phases, even though it feels like it's a million years ago, they quite like being at home and having things, comfortable for them and have continued in that way as far as they possibly can.
[00:04:51] Ed Finch: I think that's true. I think some people, I mean and it wasn't all bad for some people, we were saying during the pandemic, we must remember some of these lessons, there are kids who are doing better, there's lots of kids on the spectrum, for example, who are finding it easier to get their work done because they're not doing it in a crowded, busy intimidating distracting environment, you
[00:05:11] Bukky Yusuf: And they have choice over when they can actually do it as well, which I think is really important.
[00:05:16] Ed Finch: Kids are getting up early and they're getting all their work done in the morning and they're packing it in at lunchtime and that worked and you sort of think well, we're living in a world where maybe that could work.
[00:05:24] Bukky Yusuf: See, there's lots of conversations about, changing the school day and all the rest of it. I think there are pros and cons, to be honest, but it's about school leaders, where possible, having agency and actually trying to do things that work best for their school community and that takes, you have to be brave to do that.
[00:05:41] Ed Finch: Yeah, you have to be brave.
[00:05:42] Bukky Yusuf: You have to be brave, you've got to be trusted and I think with the educational setups, not that I'm bashing maps or academic, academies and things like that, I'm not, but what I'm seeing is this like centralised way that everybody within the, does this particular thing, whether...
[00:05:57] Ed Finch: I've seen that from some LA's as well. I have a good friend who's left headship and taken on a delightful new role and one of the reasons was the scrutiny from the LA, he was closely matching the sort of scrutiny that other people talk about from some of the, you know, the less positive MATs, which was a lesson for me because you know I thought that this was a problem of some forms of catamisation now I know there's some great MATs doing work, so it's not MAT bashing but no to hear that a colleague having exactly the same experience from an LA that just meant that it was It's his name above the door as a head teacher, but he doesn't feel that he's got any room to swing.
[00:06:35] Bukky Yusuf: Ooh, okay, okay.
[00:06:37] Ed Finch: Because I'm trying to do the right thing here. Well, we do it this way. That's why I take my name off as head teacher then, it's because I can't do it. In a lot of rural schools, I see real isolation. I've got a friend who was the one Chinese kid in his small rural town. I was a school leader at a school where we had one mixed race child and so looking at the issue of belonging for those children, I think takes a bit of a special focus. It's not just about creating a space where we all feel included, it's about being a bit more nuanced and saying how so we need to do this with some intention. So I was wondering if I could ask you if you've seen any examples of people doing the right thing, positivity around that.
[00:07:21] Bukky Yusuf: That's a million dollar question. Okay, so I read an article, recent article similar to that young boy who, he's now 16 and he grew up in London, so went to school in London and then went to Manchester. So, traditionally very diverse communities, the largest cities, things like that. But he said, despite that, in terms of staff, he didn't see any staff, from underrepresented communities and I thought, wow and then you have some organisations, for example, like Black Men Teach, who recognise this and also want to provide role models so that in terms of like, so children, particularly at primary school age coming through the ranks, they can actually think, Oh, these are people who actually look like me and may understand my context and who, they feel may be more at ease at talking to and therefore, Ooh, they're doing those particular roles. Maybe I could do it as well and I think it's really important at a younger age to plant those...
[00:08:15] Ed Finch: It is and in an urban setting, typically it's easier to do that, isn't it? But...
[00:08:21] Bukky Yusuf: Well, in theory, typically, I think you have to and this is the reason why it's, difficult to answer your question about the fact that, there has to be a recognition that first of all, this matters and there has to be a recognition that even when this is not, like top headlines, if you dial back to like four years ago, three, four years ago, it was like the priority on everyone's lips because, minds and focuses and you had say like, like visual things that showed diversity and all these particular discussions about diversity. It's a little bit quieter now and I think that's the, that's part of the issue and but also, from a school leader's aspect, you focus on what gets measured and and therefore the priorities, it may be important, but the priority is take a back seat a little bit because you've got all the other things as well that are significant for the school community and also your role as well, you know? So I think that in order to make meaningful differences, they've got to recognise that this is important, even if it's only one or two people, whether it's staff or students who will be primarily affected. Now that may sound like, well, that's a bit of a daft thing to say, but it goes back to leadership and one of the things I love about ethical leadership is that if you are an ethical leader, you do things so there is inclusive practice for all and we talk about diversity, obviously from a race perspective, there's visible diversity, but you've got invisible diversity, for example, say neurodiverse, colleagues or students and how we spoke about it earlier, the school day may differ or for example, classroom routines or every different aspect. Everything, we tend to think of things from our own experiences and perspectives and try and create like a universal roadmap of how that could actually be. But unless you have diverse representation, say for example from staff who feel safe enough to say things as they are...
[00:10:18] Ed Finch: Yeah.
[00:10:19] Bukky Yusuf: ...to shine light in shadows or, like aspects that may be overlooked, and know that there won't be any backlash, but they'll realise, the school leaders realise, actually, okay, Rather than thinking, Oh my goodness, I'm not doing the right things, we all make mistakes, even with best intentions. But actually, this is a chance to do things differently. Without that, I don't think it works. But as I say, it goes back to ethical leadership, it's about wanting to do the right things, asking the questions, looking vulnerable, admitting that you won't always have the right answers.
[00:10:50] Ed Finch: That humility I think, is key to it.
[00:10:53] Bukky Yusuf: Oh, absolutely and listening as well!
[00:10:55] Ed Finch: And it's really hard in our situation in primary education at the moment. People are, they're worried about scrutiny of various sorts. They're overwhelmed with what they feel is an over packed curriculum, they're worried about attendance, they're worried about the cost of living, they're running a food bank, which they never used to do, but that's in the school foyer now and I think you're right that attention to representation was much more of a headline a little bit before the pandemic. I guess I can sort of hear, leaders saying, Oh my God, is this another thing I have to do? yes, So how do we make it be not another thing?
[00:11:36] Bukky Yusuf: It's about recognising the importance of it.
[00:11:39] Ed Finch: Just comes back to the why, isn't it?
[00:11:41] Bukky Yusuf: It is and thinking about how we can actually do it. So, I get that about, another thing. However, what does it mean to the person, whether they're a student or teachers they don't feel included, their voices aren't, they don't feel represented, their voices aren't heard it doesn't seem to matter, what about for them? For them it's a lesson in, lesson out or day in, day out experience, how does that feel for them?
[00:12:03] Ed Finch: And I saw, I mean, I'm going to, as a head teacher, I saw how the atmosphere and morale in the school changed when people felt seen. When my colleague was able to be out and happy and welcomed as a bi woman and she hadn't thought she could be that at school, at school you have to be like this, but once she knew she was embraced for who she was in her sexuality, she did, she was a happier teacher in the classroom. The atmosphere around that room changed.
[00:12:34] Bukky Yusuf: Yes, because you are bringing more of your whole self to the role.
[00:12:37] Ed Finch: Not that she was in any way representing that to the children, no, but just she knew in the staff room and that she knew that she was truly welcome. So we got better work out of it. We should just do it pragmatically. We'll get better work out of people if we let them bring themselves to school and for kids, something that was said extraordinarily, I never took it, I'd love to hear your perspective on it, I had leaders and teachers in very small rural schools where it was all white. The leaders in our school are saying, Oh yeah, we don't really have to worry about, diversity because we don't have any of them here and I, well, I mean, I can probably guess, but what would you have liked to have said to that teacher? Other than grabbing them and shaking them!
[00:13:19] Bukky Yusuf: Oh, I would say, how do You know, because as I say, diversity of thoughts, diversity of experiences, you've got different classes, for example, I know from a rural but different classes, you've also got say, for example, as mentioned before, about neurodiversity, that's a very neurotypical response and I think in some certain ways, we can be diverse in lots of different ways, and I think it's about understanding that and understanding how it could be from an invisible perspective, ask the questions, I would sigh and say, really? And get them to educate themselves a little bit more. But I get that and I think this is one of the things about the fact that when we talk about diversity in the first instance, we think race, but it's not, there are so many different levels and layers of it and I think that they've got to think about how are they preparing these young people to co-exist in the global arena, because it is not just, the rural school, or the town city, or what have you, or the UK, we are more, we're more connected now.
[00:14:25] Ed Finch: So my feeling is these children are disadvantaged in the modern world, you went to St. Swithin's primary where everybody looks like you and the first time you met somebody who didn't, you made a faux pas, you made a faux, you were challenged in a way that weren't ready for.
[00:14:39] Bukky Yusuf: And the school's doing them a disservice, yeah. Even if the school community look the same, let's just put it that way, that doesn't mean to say that you can't have, for example, celebrations about different things that go on in the world, or, like say books. One of the things that when I remember when I started looking, again, a few years ago, they said the lack of reflection of diversity in children's book was stark, but I'm glad to see that there are changes in that. So you can have like, diverse representation in books.
[00:15:14] Ed Finch: And there are changes in that and there's good research on reflecting realities, they say, yeah, it's better than it was and it's still pretty terrible. You can go into a reasonably right on bookshop and go, oh look, there's a whole plethora of books here which have, diversity baked in of various sorts. But that doesn't mean that's the fare that's on the shelf in say a big supermarket and that's where the books are getting bought, most kids aren't going into the lovely independent bookshop. I wish they were. I love...
[00:15:44] Bukky Yusuf: Yeah. Oh, I love, yeah. Oh, tell me about.
[00:15:47] Ed Finch: But, most people are picking up another one off the shelf in Sainsbury's if that's where they're buying books at
[00:15:53] Bukky Yusuf: is true and for parents as well, there'll be conversation about whether parents should be involved in things like that. But if, if you don't know what you don't know, you're going to go, like pretty much for the same thing and that's not a criticism of parents, that's why I think in some cases, schools should take the lead on this.
[00:16:08] Ed Finch: We feel confident with brands don't we? Those books that are on those shelves, they must be good, they're the ones in the supermarket and they aren't necessarily the ones that we would want to be championing. But also, I think it's really interesting what you said about looking at diversity in race as being kind of opening the door to thinking about diversity in a wider sense. So, I think when I was a kid at school, if there were books about black children, they were either urban children depicted as being sort of second generation Windrush children, living in a tower block, living in an urban thing, it's either that or else it was, very othering depictions of African children, probably carrying buckets of water for lots of miles every day, that sort of thing. So widening the depiction of children of different races, you go, Oh, I see, they're not all the same just because they came from...
[00:17:08] Bukky Yusuf: Wherever, wherever. I'm just struck by a conversation we had beforehand, this is the reason why Lyfta products, I think are so powerful, not just in terms of the fact that it gives real quality global representation of families, children, but it's the sensory nature of it as well, where the young person can actually feel that they're actually, like you're taking, say like ring sign for you, or say like, for example, a family's events or, like going to say like a school location or sitting down with a meal, I think that's really important because more often or not, it's only when we get maybe older that, like, we go beyond, our like, where we live, the towns and cities in that we actually live that you maybe experience diversity, but that doesn't mean to say that we can't bring it in and that doesn't mean to say that you can't recognise it. I think how other people do things, but also the similarities as well. Is you, we talk so much about the differences, but I genuinely believe that there's more similarity between all of us than there are differences.
[00:18:11] Ed Finch: If you haven't checked out Lyfta, that's L-Y-F-T-A, but we'll link to it in the notes. Have a look, because that's a beautiful way to bring the world into your classroom in a real rich diversity, not in a limiting diversity.
[00:18:22] Bukky Yusuf: And a sensory well, because the students, you hear things, you can read things, you can see things. I just think that immersion is really powerful, because it's an emotional connection as well and as I say, you might see some differences, but you think, Oh, I recognise these things as well and I think that's a really lovely way to actually break down barriers and bring back conversation.
[00:18:42] Ed Finch: It's beautiful and it's, yeah. So when it doesn't go right, what are the effects on a child when they're not seeing themselves represented in a classroom and you can probably think of kids that you've worked with.
[00:18:55] Bukky Yusuf: I mean and it won't be a surprise, if you don't feel, you don't feel that you can bring your whole self and you compartmentalise. Again, I was reading something about one, he's a former teacher now, talking about the fact that when he went to school, because there were certain things that weren't valued, you think, okay, so I want to assimilate. So you'd actually, I think, amp up aspects that show you're more British, for example and anything that will be seen as different or foreign, you'd actually dial back. I mean, like for myself, ridiculous thing with my name Bukky, ridiculously, I was like, Oh no, my name is so different. Who wants to stand out when you're a child? You want to fit in. Why can't I be called Jane or something ridiculous like that? I honestly thought because in my young mind, I saw difference wasn't valued. It was, this is the way in which things are done and very, very much so what have you. So yes, compartmentalisation, not feeling fully present and I think that it's the mental efforts of portraying a different part of yourself that can take its toll. So yeah, you're not going to be, I think in short, you won't feel completely happy, but for some students, it's not an issue, to be honest, because of how they see themselves.
[00:20:14] Ed Finch: Yes.
[00:20:14] Bukky Yusuf: But as I say, I talk about diversity in its broadest sense, not just in terms of race, it could be different aspects. If you don't feel as though you are fully or wholly accepted for who you are, that's not going to be a very positive experience, really and I think there's the formative years as well are so key in that regard.
[00:20:34] Ed Finch: I think that there's a lot of talk in the secondary community about decolonising the curriculum, to give it a posh term, or just saying, well, why don't we make sure we're telling more interesting stories might be a, another way of saying it without setting off any dog whistles, but in primary, I think that conversation hasn't quite started properly.
[00:20:54] Bukky Yusuf: Not from what I'm seeing and I think again it's, there's so much to cram in. It's like, how and where do you start? When I wrote an article a few years ago, it was, like with a science reflection, there were some really important questions that DIA in 2020 actually said how, we can use these questions to review our curriculum. So for example, like this. Is the diversity of your students reflected in your lesson plans? The language, think about the language that we use, whether it's non racist, if it's sexist or discriminatory. Thinking about how we promote, say, like multicultural themes, so like for example, there will be, like celebrations, anniversaries, that globally happen, is that reflected in some way? Looking at how we avoid the use of, say, like stereotypical images and things like that. So for example, you could actually have it as role models who are doing things that wouldn't be done. Say, for example, with my science background, it would be unusual to see a woman of colour who's a scientist, but we do have some.
[00:21:53] Ed Finch: Well, we have plenty and when I'm making my PowerPoint, it doesn't take me very long to choose the Google image of the female scientist rather than the male scientist. It's a tiny thing, but it might mean something.
[00:22:08] Bukky Yusuf: It does because when you see, I've shared this in other events before when, as I said, because I've been teaching for over 20 years, I went into a school and I was just basically supporting the department and I had a young person in their early 20s who said, did you used to work in school? And I was like, yes. And are you called? I said, yes. You used to be a teacher in my school, well, apart from immediately feeling really old, I thought, Oh, that's, but she, what she said struck me, she said, because I never taught this girl. She said, because of the way in which I was visibly looking, you look like me and I wanted, and the curiosity, she never spoke to me as a kid and I thought, wow!
[00:22:44] Ed Finch: Yeah, but your presence, yeah.
[00:22:47] Bukky Yusuf: That made me really sit back and just think, my goodness. Sometimes for some young people, it's just a presence of someone that will make that difference. It gives a spark, a seed thinking, actually, I could also do this as well. Yeah and I think that's enough. But it takes a concerted effort because as an individual teacher, you could do this in your classroom, but it may not say, like if you do this in year two and it's all well and good, you go to year three, teacher doesn't actually recognise that. I just think that's a little bit of a jarring experience, which is the reason why leadership have to really consider a perspective and start small. We said about, well, like it's another thing, but it could be, you might want to review your curriculum and think, okay, so there may be some themes that we teach or teach and we'll have this particular focus, review it, talk to the kids about how it works, have a discussion with them and maybe if and when it's appropriate to share some materials with the families as well, so they can actually continue that conversation and then review it and think, okay, right, we've done that, what works? What would you need to tweak? Great and then build it onto something else.
[00:23:46] Ed Finch: That idea of iterated work, I think, is really important and I don't think it's common enough in the UK, that we would make a change to our curriculum, we're going to take out this unit on the Tudors and we're going to put in a unit on Benin. Good intentions and it does well. We teach it and it either flies or it doesn't. If you ask teachers, did you then sit down with, a little focus group of kids and talk about what did you learn and did you enjoy it and what did it make you think? You might have by mistake taught them entirely the opposite to what you wanted to teach them, you might really and it might not have flown. It's the idea of having a focus group meeting at the end of a unit and talk about how it went. I think we don't generally do that, we're time poor, we get to the end of a unit, we're struggling to get in the last two lessons because suddenly the head teacher had sprung a theme day on us and we were like, well, I haven't finished the project and then it's half term and then we're back in and we've got to start the next thing.
[00:24:39] Bukky Yusuf: Which is true.
[00:24:40] Ed Finch: So rush, rush, rush.
[00:24:41] Bukky Yusuf: And I just think that, hence why the curriculum is so overloaded. But that's another conversation in itself. I think it's about being brave to say, for our young people, this is how we want them to emerge from our primary school and these are the things that we're going to adhere to and some, there will be some things that you need to just put to one side, and be brave to stand by that decision and I know in an ideal, that's what we could actually do. I know, like in certain contexts, you can't, as I said, we mentioned about how in some particular institutions, everyone was going to be doing particular things at certain times and all the rest of it, but you could maybe use an assembly, for example, to get some of those things out.
[00:25:20] Ed Finch: A bit about the curriculum I think is really important, but it's hard to grapple with, as you say, particularly if you're an institution which is, got a bought in scheme or has got a scheme which is the same across your group of schools, whether it's a Federation or a MAT or, sometimes LA schemes, some LA's, they'd like to insist on certain schemes.
[00:25:39] Bukky Yusuf: Goodness.
[00:25:39] Ed Finch: Yes, so that does happen and the agency of the teacher to go, I'm going to use, I'm going to carve out five minutes just to share a story that, you can do that, otherwise you need to get out of teaching, I think. Do you know what I mean? I think because you're a professional, you make the choices.
[00:25:57] Bukky Yusuf: We'd like to think that, but, and to be trusted to do so as well. I think there are ways around it, but as I say, it is ensuring about year on year we build on the good practice, or year on year we build on what the aims are, even if it falls flat. I think, okay, let's re evaluate this or, like amend this particular thing and then think continue. I just think that doing these fits and starts, otherwise you have what, as I said, turn of the 2020s, great focus, less than five years later and we have that and this is nothing new. This is what is so slightly depressing because when I've done, like different talks and presentations and workshops, looking at say like diversity of the curriculum or, how we can actually have more diverse senior lead and things like that. We've got a raft of resources, evidence and information that goes back at least 20 years and some of those things are really of great quality, but where are they? One, and most people have never heard of them, two, and we're reinventing the wheel, three.
[00:26:54] Ed Finch: Do you know what? I think we need to take a little break because we're going to come back with this massive burst of positivity. We're going to imagine a world in which we're getting everything right and everybody feels included. We'll do that after we take this break. So we'll see you soon.
So before the break, we were talking about how things are in schools at the moment and we had some ideas about some good things that people are doing and some problems we'd like to solve. I would like now, if we can, to just imagine a better world and it's a world where we haven't got unlimited money because nobody has, so that's just how that is. But we've got people who understand the issues, we've got people who have signed up to solve them, we've got goodwill, we've got energy, what could we have if we worked together?
[00:27:41] Bukky Yusuf: You'd hear the, what I call the, like the hub of a school. But there's energy in it, there's joy, there's purpose in that.
[00:27:48] Ed Finch: We want that.
[00:27:48] Bukky Yusuf: Yes and as soon as you come in, I'll just say as soon as you come in, there's welcoming. So irrespective of who you are, what you look like, you've got a genuine feel of welcome, things like that. You may see, for example, say, like, welcome in different languages. I think that's a very positive way to say, yeah, visually, we welcome you.
[00:28:05] Ed Finch: So you don't think that's tokenistic? You think that would make you feel more welcome? If you saw your language on the wall.
[00:28:13] Bukky Yusuf: They're taking the effort to do that. Well, let me give an example. So on the way up here, okay. I've completely forgot about Bicester Village and how, like in terms of going shopping and things like that, it's a big thing. We pull in and we hear, like the usual thing, well we were arriving at Bicester Village and I had my headphones in and then all of a sudden I thought, what am I hearing? So I pulled my headphones down. It sounded like Hindi, like, and then like another language and I thought, oh, of course, to welcome people there and I thought that was a small thing, but at least I've done the effort. Otherwise, because the alternative is there's nothing there.
[00:28:46] Ed Finch: The real alternative is otherwise those people don't get off the train and they find themselves over at the park and ride. But...
[00:28:51] Bukky Yusuf: I just think, I that's a small thing that just shows we see, we know that you're here and we recognise you, this is our way of just highlighting that. So I think anything can be tokenistic. I think it's not just about what is up there, it's about what follows it. It's about the conversations, it's about the authentic feels that you feel and the vibes. That gives you a sense about whether this is a tokenistic thing or not, because some schools in which you wouldn't have all of those particular things, but they would see you as a person, they would welcome you, there's a genuine warmth towards you, not just you know when your people just don't...
[00:29:27] Ed Finch: No, yeah.
[00:29:28] Bukky Yusuf: I think that is what will be present as well about the fact that you are respected, we welcome you, let's support you and help you to feel included as part of the school community, as well as to help you progress and develop in whichever shape or form that works best for you, so to speak.
[00:29:44] Ed Finch: I mean, we've gone straight in on vibes and I like that because it is about vibes, yeah.
[00:29:50] Bukky Yusuf: It is and this is the reason why Okay, when it doesn't go well, we're not going to, we're talking about the positive things, you can feel it, but it's very difficult to pinpoint that. So if, so yeah, as I say, so the vibe and the energy comes through about whether you're authentic.
[00:30:05] Ed Finch: But now in our new five year down the line world, now they are confident and they are informed and they can talk about diversity, whether it's sexuality or race or gender or whatever with confidence, what's happened to make that happen and where are they now?
[00:30:21] Bukky Yusuf: What's happened is vulnerability. like this, the book, Radical Candor, it's what's happening is the fact that you can have it from the like grassroots up over top down, I think it's a mixture of both, but the leaders have got to show that this is important, not just to them, but to the whole school community and talk about the benefits for everybody. Now, obviously the reality is not everyone's going to come on board, but if you say it, and you're honest about it, this is what I find challenging, or I realise that in the past we may have the best intentions, but this is what we're going to do and it's going to be, like a whole staff collective of it, so they're not always going to be saying that they're going to have the answers. They may say, okay, this is what the overarching theme is, but we trust you, we want, we welcome your ideas, how can we do this right? How can we make sure that you feel included? What are the things we can actually say, do, get the ideas from staff, get them on board.
[00:31:08] Ed Finch: This is something that primary schools ought to be good at, yeah? Because we've got people who find themselves teaching music and they go, I haven't got a qualification in music and I don't know what I'm doing. But, I am going to do my best. I'm going to make mistakes, but we're going to do this together, I'm going to do it with warmth and humour, and we're going to do it with love and it'll be okay, because that's how primary has to work, because we can't expect that every school can afford a music specialist. But then when it comes to talking about race or talking about sexuality or talking about ethnicity or worldviews, people clam up. Not everybody, but a lot of people go, Oh, I don't know how to talk about that. I guess, yeah, there's the attitudinal change and saying, yeah, we're prepared to make a mistake because if we do it with an open heart, it flies, people take it, don't they? The other bit is that we're going to need some resources.
[00:32:00] Bukky Yusuf: Absolutely. What could help is having, say, like, external inputs and supports who would hold, not just, who would guide and facilitate the changes that the school wants to make, but in a constructive and a meaningful way, hold the school leaders to account. So, this is what you're going to be doing, we'll come back in half a term or a term to see what, how it is, that critical partner to actually help them. I think also as well, it's about the vulnerability. I just think of just being honest about these particular things and I know, for example, even myself, with my particular profile, I don't always feel comfortable talking about diversity because, it's the fear about, you don't want to get things wrong, you don't want to, misgender, so all these particular things I worry about as well. But what I always think about is, okay, what is the most meaningful thing? How can we make a connection? listen and think, okay, right. How can we then take this forward? I think that collaborative aspect is really important. Have some places they have frameworks. So I'm looking now here about the fact that you could say things like it could be a collective comment that we say, I'm really interested in whatever it is, but I don't want to use the wrong words or offend anyone, but can I just ask? So if there's a, if there's a routine way of doing that?
[00:33:11] Ed Finch: So I don't think anybody takes offense to that. So, I mean, I just want to reassure any colleagues who are listening. If you say I'm not sure how I'm meant to say this, but I just wanna ask you, is it okay, what pronouns are you comfortable with or in your professional life if it's all right to ask, do people make assumptions about you because you are a hijab wearing black woman? Or...
[00:33:31] Bukky Yusuf: Being London based, for example, I'm on YouTube all the time and when I was younger, you get people who would look at you, look at me, and they would think, you could see, do you speak English kind of thing? So you get that because of the way in which they're and I'll just say, yeah, I can speak, oh, okay. You get assumptions about how restrictive my life would be and if I have to have permission to do certain things, to which I'd laugh and I said, if anybody knew me, anyone would laugh in your face. So, and I think also as well, in terms of the religious aspects of not wanting to cause offense or, as I say, talk to me, let's have a conversation and they can see that actually there's more commonalities, but I think more widely, some of the assumptions that are made about how good I am as a professional in terms of, say, like, maybe like the quality of teaching to lessen obligations, you should really drive me crazy because not just for me, but I would notice that, okay, so if you've got a school community, really fairly diverse, but you would often notice that those from underrepresented communities would only get a categorisation, but everyone else get me higher and I'm thinking, why is that? Because I know what I do, I know what, like.
[00:34:42] Ed Finch: Yeah, I know I'm pretty good at this, but there seems to be some sort of a ceiling on it. I work on a basis that people are good hearted and they're not being mean, but there's some sort of bias there that they're not...
[00:34:54] Bukky Yusuf: There is and this is the reason why one of the books I wanted to recommend is Unraveling Unconscious Bias by Pragya Agarwal. But the reason why I'm suggesting this is this actual book actually gets us to look at the way in which our implicit or unconscious biases affect the way we communicate, but perceive the world and it affects our decision making and how they may reinforce or perpetuate systemic and structural inequalities. We all have biases and I think that unless there is a safe environment where there's no blame, no shame, we are learning, from each other, we aren't going to admit to some of their biases. Sometimes, you know, we may not even realise, have those conversations and think about, okay, so how could we address this?
[00:35:41] Ed Finch: So we come from a place of humility and that at the moment is difficult in our schools because of things about structures, things about hierarchies, stuff about appraisal, about, there was still performance linked, although, no, it isn't in some statutory frameworks, but it kind of is that, so I'm worried about being vulnerable, I'm worried about showing my humility, because that might look to someone else as if I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:36:11] Bukky Yusuf: And you're weak.
[00:36:12] Ed Finch: The fact is, I don't know what I'm doing, but that's a strength.
[00:36:14] Bukky Yusuf: Yes and you're admitting it as well, because what you have at the alternative are people who walk around, with responsibilities, pretending that they know what they're doing, but again, it's about the vibe, people can feel, you don't know what you're talking about, you say one thing and do completely another, you're holding me to account, but I know that what you do, but you know, all of those people, and that leads to distrust and basically people opt out.
[00:36:36] Ed Finch: So in our five years down the line, almost utopia, we've got school systems which trust people a little bit more and where the worry about scrutiny, whether it's from a location authority or a match structure or the inspectorate, isn't pushing people into these rigidities.
[00:37:00] Bukky Yusuf: Yeah.
[00:37:02] Ed Finch: So we have to change something structurally about how we inspect each other and hold each other to account. We've got to have to, we have to hold each other to account, that's important. But I think the way we're doing it now is making it hard for people to be vulnerable. Which makes them brittle, which makes them breakable.
[00:37:19] Bukky Yusuf: I agree and again, it puts their backs up against the wall because you're in defense mode, you're reactionary.
[00:37:25] Ed Finch: When you're in that, you're in flight or fright, aren't you? You're in that, we might describe that in the terms of some kind of trauma response, we might just say, I haven't got the capacity to think about this because I'm so worried about the trust lead for something coming in next week and what he's going to say, I'd love to talk about how we make everybody feel they belong here, I ain't got time. It's nowhere near the top of my to do list.
[00:37:49] Bukky Yusuf: Yeah, anyway, yeah. A comments about that..
[00:37:51] Ed Finch: But it will be at the top of the to do list because we'll know that belonging is going to improve everybody's experience, it's going to improve their outputs, it's going to make the kids want to turn up because this is a place that they really belong.
[00:38:02] Bukky Yusuf: Yes, exactly and when you, and let's say it goes back to how we started this, discussion. It's about the magic because you, know, there's nothing in this utopia, you would see young people who would tell you about their school and how positive it is and the difference it makes for them in their lives and the difference it makes for their friends and things like that. That I think will be the acid test.
[00:38:26] Ed Finch: The ripples are going to go out into that community. So in that five years down the line, school will have communities that know that this school belongs to them and that they belong to this community and I think that's really powerful and something that we should be wanting.
[00:38:40] Bukky Yusuf: Yes, it should be.
[00:38:42] Ed Finch: And it doesn't, and it's not coming from a place of people needing to know details about every form of diversity is coming from a place of attitude of welcome.
[00:38:51] Bukky Yusuf: It's true and yes, constant curiosity in that regard. and it's whoever you are, we welcome you and we will make sure, we will do our best to ensure that you feel valued and welcome and that you belong.
[00:39:06] Ed Finch: Let's say that our listeners have been inspired and they really want to create this in their schools and most of our listeners, I think, will be primary educators. Can we think of a few things that they could do, starting in September that are going to get us some steps down this road?
[00:39:22] Bukky Yusuf: I would say, get them to think about how they could become an ally, okay, and by that, like there's different things, but by that it's just start simply listen to other voices or whatever level, and just think about just educating yourself, like reading, learning more. They could be kinder to everybody, every single person and just think about how they could, from an individual and a collective sense, supports everyone to feel welcome. So that in a way, safeguard against, I suppose, discrimination. They are, now that's not easy because it's like, oh my goodness, how, how and when do you start? But we can be kind to everybody, we can listen, we can actually, educate ourselves and find out more.
[00:40:08] Ed Finch: What do you think about the school that says, okay, we need a bit of a focus on this. We're going to go boots in on Black History Month or Pride Week or whatever it is, how does that make you feel when you go into a school?
[00:40:23] Bukky Yusuf: It depends on their purpose and what they want to do and if it feels like, like BHM and Pride Monthly, things like that. Done, then moved on, it's like tick boxy. If it's inauthentic, I almost think, I wish it didn't even matter to be honest, it's about the follow up and the messages about that and making it meaningful because it's, otherwise it's performative. I don't think that really helps anybody.
[00:40:47] Ed Finch: Of course, it can be done beautifully.
[00:40:48] Bukky Yusuf: It can be and I think also as well, it's within a school community, we have staff, even sometimes students as well, who've got brilliant ideas and thinking, okay, this is what we plan to do. What would be the best way to do it in this school? Throw it open so that you've got different people take responsibility and take ownership of it and make it more meaningful.
[00:41:08] Ed Finch: So five years from now, kids are going to feel welcome, schools are going to be flying because this means the kids will have that sense of belonging and they're going to turn up every day to their lessons, moreover, the teachers are going to know that they are fully part of their school community, which means they're going to give us that discretionary 10 percent back, which means they'll start doing the after school clubs again, and wanting to thrive. Sounds like a pretty good place to be!
[00:41:35] Bukky Yusuf: It'll be an awesome place to be.
[00:41:37] Ed Finch: I want to thank you for coming in and helping me think it through because I've had the best time.
[00:41:42] Bukky Yusuf: You're welcome Ed and thank you for inviting me.
[00:41:49] Ed Finch: So, which ideas would you like to take away from this conversation? Download the Primary Pledge card in the show notes to continue the conversation and know actions that you'd like to take. Share your Primary Pledge card with us and fellow educators by tagging Hamilton Brooks on social media. At Primary Futures, we're on a mission to build a better future for primary education, and you can help us to spread the word by leaving a rating and review wherever you listen to this podcast to help more educators discover us and the inspiring conversations we have with our guests.