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Welcome to The Pilot Project Podcast, your premier source for stories and insights from pilots in the RCAF and mission aviation - brought to you by Skies Magazine! Whether you're an aspiring aviator, navigating flight training, or simply fascinated by the world of military and mission aviation, this podcast is your guide. We sit down with pilots and aviation professionals to hear their thrilling experiences, lessons learned, and expert advice on resilience, training, and the skills needed to succeed in this exciting field. Strap in - we’re ready for departure!
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at The Pilot Project Podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and Mission Aviation Pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison, and here with me today is Zoran Stojkovic, a mental performance and leadership consultant and certified mental performance consultant who has worked with RCAF pilot trainees. Zoran, this interview has been in the works for literally years. Thank you so much for being here today and, for the flexibility in the timings.
Bryan:We really appreciate it, and we're excited to talk about the mental side of military aviation.
Zoran:Yeah. Excited to be with you, and, thanks for your patience while we flushed everything out.
Bryan:Yeah. So we'll be looking at what happens when you know how to do something, but the pressure makes it hard to actually do it. Zoran's work has taken him from high performance sport to helping students at two Canadian Forces Flying Training School or two CFFTS in Moose Jaw and deploying with them to Texas. In this first part of the conversation, we're going to focus on Zoran's path into mental performance, earning trust in a flying school, and what he learned working alongside RCF aircrew.
Bryan:But before we get into any of that, let's go through Zoran's bio. Zoran Stojkoviich is a certified mental performance consultant and applied performance scientist with more than fifteen years of experience across sport and operational environments. His work includes supporting Athletics Canada through Olympic and Paralympic qualification cycles and building performance and team culture frameworks for a Canadian Premier League championship winning team. At two CFFTS, he helped integrate mental performance coaching into the daily realities of pilot training. He went on to serve as mental performance manager for the RCAF and now serves as manager of fitness and sports within the Canadian Armed Forces personnel support programs supporting Royal Canadian Navy Readiness.
Bryan:Through Kizo performance, he also consults with athletes, firefighters, and executives and hosts the Built For Pressure Podcast. So, Zoran, let's, talk about where it all started. Growing up, what role did sports play in your life?
Zoran:Well, first of all, I I just wanted to thank you for for taking the time to to talk about this really important topic, of of mental performance and overall readiness in for for aircrew. So for me, growing up, I moved to Canada when I was 10 years old. So my sport sort of became the way to speak the same language as as the kids who spoke a different language until I until I actually learned how to speak English. My dad from a very, very young age, my dad always loved sport. He worked in sport, as as a physio for parts of his career.
Zoran:And so he really valued it and he took me and my sister my sister and I to all sorts of sports. And, I was a as a multi sport athlete, not at the highest of levels for most of the sports, but, tennis was bigger in my life and I then I got into coaching. And from coaching, I got into mental performance. So it's had a very significant role in my life and I really believe in the power of sport as a vehicle to character development but also personal development and then learning how to deal with life and resiliency and all all that kind of stuff.
Bryan:Yeah. That's awesome. It's actually interesting. You know, we're gonna talk about some of the similarities that high level athletes and pilots have, but it is something that I often hear. If it's not air cadets that brought someone into the pilot world, a lot of the time, the people who join and become pilots were people who were playing, sports at a college level, and, they just found that the qualities that made them good at that also made them into a good pilot.
Zoran:Yeah. And you're probably seeing now a lot of a lot of folks that that join, and I saw this anyways, play played video games as well. Yep. Because of the hand eye coordination and the teamwork aspect of it and communication and being able to, like, do one thing with the hands while thinking about something in your mind and planning strategy. So I think I think any kind of hobby, especially sports and video games as well, are really helpful in building the skills to that context of of flying.
Bryan:Yeah. Definitely. I'm a huge video game nerd. A lot of my buddies in the pilot world are as well. For sure, they've for a while now, they've been saying, like, the hand eye coordination and multitasking and a bunch of you know, the the ability to kind of look around the screen and take in a bunch of information.
Bryan:Like, there's a lot of skills there that actually apply quite well. A 100%. Yep. You know, you've talked about that sports was important to you growing up, and and through school. When did you first get curious about why someone can perform in practice but then struggle when it counts?
Zoran:It was my own performance on the tennis court, noticing this tension during matches. I couldn't hit the same targets as I could in practice. And, look, coaches did their best to help. But much like what I've seen in the military context too, instructors tend to focus on the technical adjustments, because they don't have the competencies to deal with mental readiness. And they don't have the language to typically to to talk about it and to to train their performer on it.
Zoran:So my when I started to play tournaments I started tennis kinda late as far as the sport goes. But, when I started to play tournaments and competitive tournaments, my parents noticed that I was struggling on the court, they actually came, I don't even know where they dug up these articles, but it was International Tennis Federation articles on mental preparation and performance. And these articles, in all honesty, they were pretty terrible because they didn't tell you they actually didn't tell you how to fix the thing. I remember these articles on confidence, and it's like, well, you just gotta think you know, you gotta believe that you can do it. It's like, but that's not building the skills.
Bryan:But that is what confidence is. That's not how to do it.
Zoran:No. Exactly. It's like, how do I build it on the court? And there's a lot of ways to build confidence. But, yeah, that that came to it.
Zoran:And then The Inner Game of Tennis was a book that I read when I was, pretty young. That was my initial, like, watching athlete interviews. And and then I started to coach. I noticed that my athletes and players had very similar challenges as I did. And so we started to work on that.
Zoran:And I started to read those resources to help them prepare for tournaments. And then, yeah. So it was it was a pretty gradual, kinda, I don't wanna say self awakening, but following my curiosity, I could say. Mhmm.
Bryan:Yeah. And it's funny that you came to that partially through tennis because of all the sports. So, like, my wife, Melissa, who is also my editor, we love to watch those Netflix sports docs. You know, the quarterback, the receiver, full swing, and gosh, what is the tennis one? Breaking point?
Bryan:Yes. And breaking point. And one of the things we noticed the most is it seems to be the tennis stars more than anyone who desperately need performance coaching, like mental performance coaching. Like, they seem to be so emotional and so at the mercy of their, like, you know, smashing rackets. And they're amazing when they're hot.
Bryan:And then as soon as, you know, things go against them, there's a collapse. Like
Zoran:Yeah. It's and I I've worked and I do work with professional tennis players as well. And it's like, sometimes what you see in those documentaries is played up to to make it engaging But as I think a lot of that world, you you you made a really valid observation. It's it's a challenging sport. You're you're literally a gladiator in an arena.
Zoran:And you're you're competing against the person on the other side and you're playing for points and prize money. And if you get sent home, you're yeah, you don't have as much to pay your coaches, maybe you lose your coaches, you know, you've got to fire your physio. Like, it's there's a lot of pressure on the line until you make the top 100, which is where you're making the real money. But outside of like the top 200 in the world for men men and women, you're making like like, you're not even making the bottom of a captain rank.
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:So it's it's pretty it's pretty bad money, until you actually make it. And you don't have anybody on your side of the court. Like, you if you've got enough money to bring your coach to events with you, great. But you can't talk to them during the matches. So it's, yes.
Zoran:Definitely a big mental game. I think golfers as well. Like
Bryan:Yeah. That's the other one. Full swing, like, really brings it home Yeah. That those guys need those guys need therapy.
Zoran:And then and then f one, I don't know if you've seen the drive to survive as well. Yeah. Those are good.
Bryan:Yeah. F one to me sometimes has some of the closest parallels with being a pilot in the air force because there's this massive high pressure. Obviously, they're actually like operating a vehicle, lots of speed, quick reaction times. There's the maintainers who are working super hard to support you. Like Yep.
Bryan:But in the end, it's like, it's down to you to perform. So I actually think that one has has a ton of parallels.
Zoran:Massive. And the comms piece of it, the fact that there's, anyways, your hands are on the steering wheel as as the driver, but there's a lot that goes into it. The pit crew Yeah. Equivalent to the mechanics. I've thought about this quite a lot, and there's there's a ton of parallels, like contingency planning and and and how you prepare and, not not the speed not only the speed, but it's like a moment of tension.
Zoran:You're cooked in the car potentially in the cockpit as well if you're going at high speeds and maybe doing like low nav.
Bryan:Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yep. So we've kinda talked about it a little bit, but you have this interest, you kinda gradually followed it.
Bryan:When did you first realize like, hey, this could be my career?
Zoran:I mean, when I got to the end of my, undergrad in psychology, I I had this dilemma, right, and of what to do with my life. And, my mentors really helped me clarify a path and and two especially influential people in my life were were Mike Best, who's, he was a retired Wall Street investor and coached professional tennis players when he retired in in his thirties. And then Veronica Plena, who is a national team field hockey player turned amazing professor and mental performance consultant. So those two people were, like, I wouldn't say in my head, but, like, I was talking to them all the time about what to do in my future and spending a lot of time with them. And, the path to becoming a certified mental performance consultant, which is like a protected term for essentially doing sports psychology in a way in North America, it was bumpy.
Zoran:Like, I decided to leave Canada and, and move to Europe. Got to do an amazing program where I got to study in Greece and Finland, and then I got to do a practicum in Serbia Wow. At a high performance tennis academy. And so, was a really like, it was an amazing experience. And for sure, the credentialing is important and the path.
Zoran:But I also I changed when I moved. And then I came back a different person, met my wife when we were in Finland and all sorts of things. But I think the the training required is is quite a lot. Not only do you need to have grad school, in in in a specific topic area and specific courses, but you need mentorship hours. You need to do a practicum.
Zoran:You need to defend a thesis. You need to then have like client testimonials that you've done good work. And it's a good system that is developing and growing as we go through the years. So it's, and then you gotta take an exam as well. So it's it is a lot.
Zoran:Yeah. And, I mean, do doing the credentialing doesn't make you good at the work. Right. Doing the work in a high perf like, in a high quality and high performance kind of way makes you good at the work. Like, my schooling didn't make me good at the work.
Zoran:Right? Well, I think it's like flying. Right? Like, going through flying training doesn't make you a good pilot. Deployments and missions and being being in a squadron and that that makes you a good pilot.
Zoran:Right?
Bryan:Yeah. It gives you the the training gives you the tools and, like, sets you up with the strong basics, but then it's the lived experience that actually develops you into, like, a professional. 100%. Yeah. You mentioned that you did your practicum in Serbia.
Bryan:Is is that where you came to Canada from?
Zoran:Yep. Yeah. Okay. Moved in 2001.
Bryan:Was it was it cool to get back there?
Zoran:So cool to get back there. And I I'd been going back, like, every every two years.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:And and and it's it is really great to go back because lots of family and friends and culture and food and just, like, really positive things. And, and and, obviously, a part of my identity is is Serbian. So Serbian and Canadian. So
Bryan:Yeah. So let's talk about some of your experience in elite sport. Take me back to your first coaching experience. What did you get wrong at first? I
Zoran:think one of the first things I got wrong initially was believing that everybody needed to learn the same skills,
Bryan:which
Zoran:doesn't actually focus on the individual. And so my approach now is very customized. Like, everything everything's customized. There's still common skills that we're working on, but I really let the client, lead me lead me towards what they wanna work on, which requires really good listening and actually requires a lot of energy to do properly. And that and that's the approach I applied both at two CFFTS with pro athletes like Athletics Canada and, with other pro athletes I'm still working with in teams.
Zoran:But I think, work wise, what I got wrong initially was I didn't know the business side of the work Okay. Before I actually made it to the military space. And so one of the things I got wrong was doing too much pro bono work. And so I quickly ended up like something just didn't feel right. It's like the clients don't commit when you're doing pro bono work, typically.
Zoran:And so I quickly got a mini MBA from listening to podcasts, talking to mentors, talking to colleagues who are a couple years ahead of me, right? Because this wasn't something I was taught about in school, and most programs don't teach you about the business side of doing the work. Books and websites, like, was constantly absorbing knowledge. There's so much free, high quality knowledge available. It's amazing.
Zoran:And so one of my first paid clients was was a hockey player from BC wanting to play college hockey. And so I was and I remember being so nervous going from, like, pro bono work to actual paid work. But it it was you know, I was finding my path and figuring out my approach and doing my best to serve the client. And I care deeply for sure. And and and, that show it in the results that specific client, achieved and and the length of our work together.
Zoran:But, you know, it's providing value but also being compensated for it. Like, that's definitely what I what I got wrong initially.
Bryan:Mhmm. You supported Athletics Canada through Olympic and Paralympic qualification cycles. What does the pressure look like up close that those athletes are under?
Zoran:The Olympics and and Paralympics are an adrenaline rich environment where everyone is pretty much the best in the world at their discipline. And so everyone's pressure signals are different, much like, different airframes have different makeups. Right? In a critical emergency, you don't follow the same procedure on an F-thirty five and Rafale. So the planes are built differently.
Zoran:And so every human being is wired differently and has unique needs and objectives and goals and strengths and personality and values and brain wiring and physiology and genetics. And so as a result, the symptoms of pressure are gonna vary. In general, research has pointed to to a few common symptoms that come up when the brain perceives the situation you're in as a threat, which is where pressure tends to spike or the feeling of pressure tends to come out. And so, some of that's associated with your heart rate being above 150 beats per minute, which you don't necessarily need to be doing exercise for. Like, that could be psychologically like, the brain can actually make that happen by perceiving something as a threat.
Zoran:So what happens very quickly is cortisol and adrenaline flood the bloodstream and set off this cascade of effects. And I'm not gonna talk about all of them, but, you know, some of them are increased heart rate, breathing rate, blood pressure. There's a narrowing of the visual field, very problematic for flying. Tunnel vision might come up as which the extreme version of that where you even lose, like, color. It's also common when a pilot G locks.
Zoran:Right? There's reduced fine motor control. There's, which which makes landings and fine adjustments, really, really challenging. Communication issues happen as a result of these chemicals flooding the bloodstream. Right?
Zoran:And so you can choke. Like like, not by choke, I mean not being able to speak. Like, actually feel like you can't speak.
Bryan:Right.
Zoran:Reduce comprehension. So you're not it's easier to miss auditory commands from ATC or mission command. And you see this in some of the catastrophes in in in the aviation space. Task saturation pops up as well as the bucket fills. And so if a pilot doesn't have a red or yellow page for a compromised internal condition, that risks them making a fatal error.
Zoran:And I call that the inability to handle pressure. And so at my job at two CAD, at two CFFTS, I was able to create programs and policies that boost performance in the cockpit. And we're gonna talk about how I was able to do that. But relationships is really the key to to implementing any of that kind of change. Because that's a very it's a complex system, and it's the internal system, I mean.
Zoran:And, relationships are big for for actually having an impact on that.
Bryan:Mhmm. Yeah. Now you mentioned GLOC. For the listeners, that's gravity induced loss of consciousness, which is when you pull g and basically the blood rushes from your head and your you the first sign that that's happening is you start to lose your vision because your eyes need lots of oxygen. Before we jump into the flying side of things, do you have any stories where you, something you tried really helped a professional athlete turn things around?
Zoran:I've got lots. I'm thinking of a professional tennis player I was working with. And he was having he was in the slumps. Training wasn't consistent. Results were were pretty bad.
Zoran:And so what I noticed pretty quickly was that motivation was low. And there's a lot of different ways to work on motivation, but I see motivation as the drive to achieve a specific behavior. And through a lot of conversation, I started to really drill down into why he actually plays tennis. And so, was an athlete from one of the like, not not from The States. It was like a poor country, not known for tennis.
Zoran:And what we got to by digging into his why was that he was playing tennis so that he could show kids from his country that it is possible to get out of poverty and it is possible to play at the world stage. And so when he spoke that sentence out, he shed a tear. I shed a tear. Because I felt it. And I was like, that's your why.
Zoran:And then we used that to actually motivate him to play and compete. Anytime he was in the slumps, it's like, dude, like, why are you doing this? Like, think about that kid. Sometimes I'm the one who tells the client the things that nobody else can really tell them, and they and they do listen. Yeah.
Zoran:Because I they know I mean it, and and I I see them as as what they are. And and for sure, this was something that really turned things around for this athlete. Yeah. That's that's the first story that kinda comes to mind.
Bryan:Yeah. That's awesome. That's a really good one. So you're working in the field of professional sports. How do you end up going from there to working with the RCAF and Moose Jaw?
Zoran:So I'd been I'd always wanted to work in the military.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:And and I always kept my eye out for mental performance gigs. Like, I got my graduate degree in 2017. So I'd been keeping my eye on that. And this opportunity in Moose Jaw came up in the summer of twenty twenty three. And so but up to that point, I'd been, again, I'd been grinding.
Zoran:I'd been really working my butt off to take every opportunity, to make opportunities, myself, pitch myself. So by that point, I'd worked with Athletics Canada and, in the Canadian Premier League with, with the team. And so it was, and with individual clients from like all over, like clients from Rugby Canada and clients who were playing for who in different, like, national, like, shooting federations and stuff like that. So a wide variety of sports.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And by the time that opportunity came up, I was ready for it. Yeah. And I applied for it, and I absolutely not like, I put together a great resume. And before the time of AI, like, I wrote it. I put it together, and a good cover letter.
Zoran:And then I got interviewed, and it was a long interview. It was a it was like a three hour interview, like 20 questions. I had to do a presentation. And the presentation I did was actually on a framework we use in the in training curriculum and and, with Pilots, which was awesome. But I absolutely crushed it and there was people and there's folks in uniform.
Zoran:There's a major and a captain on the interview panel. I was like, oh my god. Like, what do I call them? Right? Like, is he I'm like, sir.
Zoran:Is it like, sir? Like, what do so there's, like, funny things. Right? Like, you don't think about that. Like, you've been in the military space forever, but coming in as a civilian, that was one of
Bryan:the things. Some culture shock there?
Zoran:Yeah. A little bit. But but once once I got in and, and I still remember getting that call from from my manager at the time, and and I was really happy. And it was like, we wanna offer you the position. Think about it.
Zoran:And I'm like, oh my god. Now I gotta tell my wife that we're just to convince her to move. Yeah. And she's like, of course, we're moving. This is like your dream.
Zoran:Like, we're we're going. So and then that whole path starts of of, of actually trying to understand the environment. Like, can read about it. You can hear about it on podcast. You can watch movies about it.
Zoran:No. Like, that'll get you partly ready, but
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:You gotta live it. And that was I loved that job. That was a that I went to work happy, like, every single day. Like, for sure, was challenges, but there was it was a really great environment to work in. And and I felt very wanted.
Zoran:Like, people wanted me to be a part of the environment. And so
Bryan:Yeah. And so you're talking about kind of how, oh, you know, what do I call these guys? You know? And that you can prepare, you can listen to podcasts, kinda try to immerse yourself in that world, but really how you do that is getting there. So what do you remember about when you walked into two CFFTS in Moose Jaw for the first time?
Zoran:So what I remember about walking in was it felt it felt very serious to me. Right? There was there might have even been a couple planes flying overhead. It was it was October. It was, like, October 1.
Zoran:And for me, it was it was, it felt very serious. I was trying to understand having these moments where I'd be, like, in a in a briefing room with, with pilots and and the CO would walk in and, like, everybody does a room. And I'm like, oh my god. Like, what do I do? Right?
Zoran:So it is right? I'm like, do I do it? Like, do I you know?
Bryan:For anyone who is confused about what Zoran's talking about, when the CO or commanding officer walks into the room, the instructor will call room very sharply, and everyone will sit at attention in their seats. And if they're standing, they will stand at attention. So it's understandable that the first couple times that happened, it would be a little confusing to a civilian.
Zoran:So was that culture shock? Right? And and but I I got adjusted to that quickly. What really helped is having this amazing captain, Captain Rubrina, Kyle Rubrina. He was on the interview panel.
Zoran:And when I came in, he he was one of the people that helped onboard me. And I was very open asking him questions that maybe I wouldn't ask otherwise. And, and so through that and through observation, I was able to to understand the context pretty quickly. Like, it definitely took me six months. The more I stayed in the context, the more I understood, but, like, six months to to get it, like, to get the social norms of the context.
Zoran:Yeah. Like, that invisible handshake when you walk into an environment, there's an invisible handshake that happens. Well, there's a lot of those in in the military context.
Bryan:For
Zoran:sure. There's a lot of, like, unwritten behaviors that it's just like, that's how we do it. And so trying not to do things that are gonna go against that and piss people off. Do you know what I mean?
Bryan:So Yeah. Mean, you're basically trying to learn all the stuff that we learn on basic training, you know, for twenty weeks of concentrated experience Yep. You know, kind of naturally by osmosis. So that's gotta be a challenge.
Zoran:Totally. And and, the mental performance manager at the time was was really good. She spent a lot of time with me. Like, she came on-site to to actually show me show me around and like introduce me to people within a chain of command. And then there was major Paul Como who was, he was in the space as well.
Zoran:And he was kind of like the liaison for the mental performance program. And he he had this, like, slide deck on the military, and it was it was amazing. And he's like, okay. You're a civilian. Like, I'm gonna spend, like, three hours with you and teach you the things.
Zoran:And I found that very helpful. Yeah. I'm really grateful to those people who who took the time.
Bryan:Was the the manager there, was that Jamie? It was Jamie. Yeah. Jamie Bunka. Yeah.
Bryan:So big shout out to Jamie Bunka. She was the one who kinda helped set this up in the first place years ago, and it sort of just slipped by the wayside. And then when I reached back out, she's moved on to other things. But huge shout out to her to kind of helping put this on my radar as a as a great topic for the show. So you you get in there.
Bryan:You kind of take some time to understand the the pilot world, the military world, and then the pilot world within that world. What surprised you most about the pressure student pilots were under?
Zoran:The mental resilience needed to move away from home to pursue your dream in a highly challenging environment. Isolation. Yeah. Not having your parents, friends, girlfriend, wife sometimes, husband, kids. The training environment was for sure fast paced, challenging, sink or swim sometimes.
Zoran:You got to move past setbacks quickly. It was interesting for me to see the folks who came in and thought they could do it by themselves not do well because I don't think it's designed to be able to be done by yourself. It's the training, from what I understood, is designed to be done with the help of others.
Bryan:Absolutely.
Zoran:And those who self isolated were cooked. Yep. They did not do well. They struggled. They performed worse.
Zoran:And I think at the end, they didn't get the airframes they wanted to. Besides those, it's the pressures it is the pressures outside of the flying environment, the fitting in, the meeting expectations. Like, they're also moving, Right? To but maybe they've done it once before for for basic or for for their, you know, OJT. So, you know, meeting meeting expectations of family, friends.
Zoran:Like, some of them had military parents. Oh, yeah. And they had very it was like, you are doing this, and it was a big part of their identity from a young age. And some of them had parents who didn't want them being a pilot. Those dynamics are very complex.
Zoran:And through I getting I know this because I talk to a lot of people. Like, a lot of people opened up to me and, and I was able to build really good relationships to the point where I'm still in contact with people. People invited me to their birthdays, to the mess, like, to wings. Like, it was it was, that's how I learned about all that stuff. And and so, again, what really surprised me was was the dedication it takes to become a pilot.
Zoran:Like, leaving like, the sacrifices and choices you make to to get away from home and to be in an environment that's cold. Maybe it's different. You gotta drive an hour to get anywhere. Like, there's, you know, there's things, but it's it is very isolated. Yeah.
Zoran:So
Bryan:Yeah. It's funny. I didn't expect that answer, but as you're talking, I'm thinking back to my days as a student in Moose Jaw, and that was one of the hardest parts. Like, you know, I was in my early twenties or mid twenties, you know, like a lot of people had gone through a breakup right before Moose Jaw because, you know, now you're moving across the country and not not every relationship survives that. And, it was tough.
Bryan:You know, I felt like I had no no support from my family anyways, which has been, you know, through my life a huge support. So it was really hard. I was lucky, you know, my parents who, you know, still support me to this day. They they listen to every episode of this show as well. So hi, mom and dad.
Bryan:I remember my mom sending me Christmas cookies in the mail and doing stuff like that to kinda help help support me. But for sure, that that is one of the hardest parts, definitely. Yeah. A 100%. So we're gonna talk about some of the similarities between sport and flying.
Bryan:Did you find that anything you've learned coaching athletes was a poor fit for aviation?
Zoran:My first thought is no, but there is one thing. So in sports, sports can be high stakes, but military aviation is real stakes. Right. Like when that plane takes off, it has to friggin land. Yep.
Zoran:But when you start a soccer practice, a coach blows a whistle. It's done. Everybody's safe. So that danger aspect of it wasn't present, and it took me, I had to learn that. Yeah.
Zoran:Like, this was like, these people were gonna be going in enemy territory doing real missions. Like and it's and as the geopolitics started to to change and kinda ramp up, it that became ever more evident. Mhmm. And so that you're working with people who have a mission. Like, they have a purpose.
Zoran:They're not yeah. So they're their country. So that that was the big thing. For sure, athletes that have Canada on their chest are representing their country, but they're not. Anyways, it's it's very different.
Zoran:Yeah. Very, very different. So that's the key thing in sport I had to let go of. It's like, that's that's high stakes, but this is real stakes.
Bryan:Yeah. Yeah. I like that. That's very accurate. That's a great way of putting it.
Bryan:So you start to get this understanding of the stakes, but at the same time, you're not an aviator. So how do you earn credibility with people whose job you haven't done?
Zoran:Being an outsider is never easy. For sure. I busted my butt to to get into the hearts and minds of of the aviators and, and units I worked with. So it was it was the work ethic. And I cared about the person underneath the uniform.
Zoran:So for me, it was not about the pilot. But by connecting with the person underneath the uniform, I was able to help them become a better pilot. Hopefully, a little bit of a better person in that pursuit. We talked about a lot, the pilots, instructors, I, you know, talking about non flying things, f one, tennis, family, soccer, muscle cars. And then I'd always try to bring it back to conversations related to performance.
Zoran:Right? I had to understand the context. But I'd say I'd argue the I'd argue humans humans are humans and through working with people and coaching tennis for fifteen years and then through working in in elite sports context for seven, eight years by the time I got to the military, I got to understand humans and pressure and nerve the nervous system and all that stuff didn't change. But the 10% of it that did change was the context.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And so what really helped was my personality. I I really trust people, and I value human relationships. And I believe that anybody doing this kind of work has to have I'm biased, but I think you have to have that. You have to have that care for people. You can't be afraid of people.
Zoran:You gotta know who you are and where you stand, and and you gotta be able to be authentic and and real with people. Yeah. So that's what really got me that credibility and buy in with with folks.
Bryan:It's interesting to me listening to you talk because a lot of what you're saying is the same answers I get when I talk to a leader about establishing credibility. And really what you're doing is a it is mentorship. It is leadership. Right? So it's really cool to hear, like, really almost word for word some of the stuff you're saying I've heard from colonels and generals.
Bryan:And, yeah. I think those are just the qualities that really make somebody truly trust you because you're establishing real relationships and you're being like like you said, you're being your authentic self. So they know that you're putting yourself out there and and they can put themselves out there as well. Mhmm.
Zoran:Is it too late for me to join the military?
Bryan:It's never too late. So one of the things that sort of always happens around things that involve mental health, mental health care, therapy, coaching, mentorship, all these different things is that sometimes people just, like, they don't buy into it. What did you do when someone was, you know, polite and, you know, said, oh, yeah, that sounds cool, but, like, it was obvious that they weren't buying into what you were selling.
Zoran:The so when I was on, on the top of my game, I would become aware of what you just said, that that resistance or that lack of buy in, and I would roll with the the resistance, or I would politely call it out. Not
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:Not in an angry way, but so I had, I had a pilot that came in for for an intake, which all all the all the folks did coming into Moose Jaw and and Portage of the Prairie as well. And we're having I just I'm asking very generic questions, and I'm taking notes. It's like a 20 conversation. And, I could tell that she was holding back.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:And I asked I kind of paused and looked at her and asked, you know, why, you know, why are you it seems like you're not being fully kind of like honest with me. And she's like, can you put down the notepad and pen? And I did it right away. And she said she'd been burned by sharing things about herself, talking to a social worker, and then getting grounded for it.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:And I'm like, I fully get why you would mistrust me, and that is a good response. That fully makes sense. But if I didn't give her the opportunity to talk about that, that relationship would have would have been on that. She never would have come to see me. Ended up being a person that came to see me to, like, not only when struggling, but also to, like, to to improve things.
Zoran:Like, you don't need to go to mental performance coaching only when things are going wrong. Mhmm. Pro athletes do it all the time, to to improve things. Yeah. And preemptively to prepare for challenges they're gonna face.
Zoran:And, and so that became a really good working relationship. And from that day on, I transitioned into not taking notes during the session. Because I'm like, woah, maybe other people also felt like that. You know, what's happening with my information? You know?
Zoran:And I communicated. Hey, like, I don't talk through a chain of command. This only stays with me. If there's challenges or issues, we'll raise them together. Mhmm.
Zoran:Right? With your with your approval, with your consent. But I don't go and talk about your stuff to anybody. So Mhmm. It doesn't go on a medical record.
Zoran:So, yeah, I'm separate from the system, which was which was really good.
Bryan:Yeah. I feel like that would be like an important thing to even put. Like, I don't know if they're still receiving, like, briefings on mental performance coaching as a, you know, as a course. Mhmm. But, like, I feel like that's the first thing that should be in the headlines.
Bryan:Right? Because so so many people within the pilot world are and air crew and many trades are terrified of saying the wrong thing and, you know, opening up a bit and then suddenly they're grounded or they can't do their job or whatever. And really, you know, they're okay. They just need to talk about something or Yeah. You know, it can it can put a big divider.
Bryan:And and I totally get like, I think I personally subscribe to being open with your mental health care team. And then, you know, hopefully, everything will be you'll you'll be able to keep doing your job. And in the meantime, if you need to take a short pause, sometimes that's actually what you need to be safe and healthy. But I think it's good that they know that there are some resources to talk to that don't just, like, you know, directly go to your medical record.
Zoran:Yeah. For sure. And and I think there's, the stigma around mental health when I was in Moose Jaw anyways was pretty strong.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And so I did as much as I could to separate myself from that. And mental health is highly important, obviously. Like, went to school for it. Like, this is so important. But mental performance is something different.
Zoran:We're not coming to talk about family issues. We're not coming to talk about, high levels of anxiety or depression. No. Like, that's that's outside of scope. Mhmm.
Zoran:We're talking about performance in the cockpit. Mhmm. What makes you perform? What are your routines and suite of other skills? So, yeah, I think separating that was was definitely very important.
Bryan:For sure. Do you have any examples of, like, a great success story where, you know, I would love it if somebody who's listening right now is at Moose Jaw. They're having a hard time. Do you have an example of somebody who is in that situation? They felt like they couldn't do it.
Bryan:They couldn't, you know, over and over again on a test, let's say, they're good every day and then it's the test and they get that testitis and they and they're they're, you know, they're not doing great on tests. Do you have an example without identifying somebody of someone who is kinda going down that path and you were able to turn it around?
Zoran:I've got many. Like, I can think of many people in situations where people have come in after failing a test and then having a retest tomorrow.
Bryan:Yeah. Because that's, like, one of the most stressful positions most people will be in, like, maybe in their life. Like, when you're on flight training, as crazy as it sounds to people who haven't been there, a lot of the time, you feel like it would be the worst thing that could happen isn't crashing. The worst thing that could happen would be that you fail off the course. Like, so people who have failed a flight, so just for listeners who have not been on flight training with the military, it's like two strikes, you're out basically in a row.
Bryan:So, like, if you fail a flight and then you fail the redo of that flight or a test and the retests, like, you're up for review to potentially be ceased trained. So what do you do when someone's facing that?
Zoran:So hard, man. I I've had a few of those situations where folks hadn't come to see me before.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And so they they'd come in because they're they're struggling, and and they're like I remember this one pilot who came in, and he's like, hey. I just failed my test. You know, comes in tears. We talk about it. We unpack it.
Zoran:We with this specific pilot that I'm thinking of, we actually mapped out his almost nervous system activation levels because this was what was causing him the issue. And we mapped it out on the board. I added this big whiteboard. And we mapped it out by phase of flying. Like pre flight, where are you at?
Zoran:Okay, you're before you do the briefing with the instructor, what do you wanna be doing? And how how are you gonna bring your kind of nervous system activation now? Okay, there's a briefing with the instructor. I get super nervous. Okay, how do we bring that down?
Zoran:And then it was putting on your gear, then you walk to the plane, then you're in the cockpit, you're doing your checks. There's a lot of micro moments for this pilot that we could have, thrown in a breath. One moment of like groundedness, like feel your feet on your, in your boots, kind of tense and release your hands, think about how you want to fly, like what's a process goal you have. Because the mind's going to be thinking about things anyways. And if we can channel that and and guide that in a in a non nonaggressive way, it's actually gonna be our ally in the plane.
Bryan:Yeah.
Zoran:And this pilot ended up passing that retest, which was super great. Mhmm.
Bryan:And That must be rewarding.
Zoran:He was grateful. And then he tells others, and then others come see me. So it's like, that that's that's kinda how how it worked. And and I loved I loved those moments. But Yeah.
Zoran:With with him, I did the walk. I was like, let's not sit in the let's not sit in the office here. Like, let's do the walk. We drew it out. Let's do it.
Zoran:Let's walk it. What do you do now? What do you think? Oh, what about this? When you walk through this door, when you sit in this briefing room, how long do you wait for the instructor?
Zoran:Well, don't. So what do you do there? Well, I'm on my phone. Well, okay. Well, that's draining energy.
Zoran:Let's go with that. Right? So we're looking at the whole process, and I'm essentially coaching them on how to get their mind and body into the right zone so that they're actually flying really well.
Bryan:That's awesome.
Zoran:And there was a lot of inefficiencies that this pilot had.
Bryan:So Yeah. Well and and as do many of us. Right?
Zoran:Totally. It's human. I do as well. Right? But it's it's a thing that we constantly work on and build awareness on.
Bryan:Mhmm. So something that was really cool that you got a chance to do was you were the first mental performance specialist to deploy abroad with RCAF aircrew, which was during Jaw South in Texas. Can you kind of tell us how that happened and what Jaw South is?
Zoran:So how this happened is I I found out about the deployment. This was probably two months into into my job
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:Just through the grapevine. And I found out there's gonna be a briefing to brief the families and the people going. So I put up my hand. I said, hey, I'd like to deliver a briefing. And they said, yeah, you'll have five to ten minutes.
Zoran:And so I took that time to give them real tangible tools they were gonna use on the ground and things that others weren't talking about. And I think I talked about getting down there, how to adjust quickly from a long flight. I talked about the importance of nutrition. I talked about some things to bring from home that were that were gonna help them in that environment. And then I talked about a mental performance piece or, like, a mental skill, and I can't remember which one.
Zoran:But, and that was well received. It was it was a big group, like, 200 people, and I it was really well the seal was there and, like, the whole chain of command for two two CFFTS was
Bryan:there. Nice.
Zoran:And so then they went and I prepared a resource for them, like something they could use on the road. And I handed it out to to each of the pilots and and instructors. And it was like a what was it? It was a pre flight mental training, warm up. So it was a bunch of different ways to warm up your brain and body to to actually fly really well.
Zoran:People really like that. And so I had I I provided micro value. Right? And so for the by the time the next deployment was coming up, I went and talked to the CEO, and the CEO at the time was, Philip Turcotte, TAC. And so he I had amazing rapport with him from the start, like, pretty much from the beginning.
Zoran:And, I pitched him on why I should attend and he was gonna be paying for it. My CFMWS was not gonna be paying for it. It was coming from the unit. And, without hesitation, he's like, yeah, do you wanna come for the full duration or a portion of it? And so when I went down, it was anyways, before I went down, it was the fact that relationships were huge, like at all levels of the organization.
Zoran:I wouldn't have known about this thing if I just stayed in my office and like waited for clients to come see me. I found out about it because I was actually out there talking to the people, talking to the client. And it was really because of an early conversation with the CEO, with TAC, about I was at The One of the instructors had invited me to to The Mess on a Friday, and and I went. And, again, culture shock. Like, it's different.
Zoran:There's you guys are used to it, but
Bryan:Friday night at Moose Jaws can be pretty crazy. It's awesome. Yeah. It's it's fun. It's a lot of fun.
Bryan:Yeah. It's great. It's probably the most fun mess in the RCAF, I would say. Is that right? Okay.
Bryan:That's really good to hear. I would say so. Yeah. Yeah.
Zoran:Because it it set a really high standard for me. And so, I came, and I'm there with the instructors, and we're talking. And we're talking about all sorts of stuff, and people are coming up to me and introducing themselves. And they're they're also kinda testing me. Yeah.
Zoran:Right? And I can see this. And then the CO and his wife come to the same table, and we're chatting. And he sees me talking to his instructors. He I'm talking to him, and we're talking about all sorts of things.
Zoran:And he's like, why don't you come see me on Monday? And then we'll I want you to come see me every two weeks. So he saw something. Like I, that's when I got buy in with him. It wasn't through emailing him and being like, hey, can we it was being at The Mess, seeing him, seeing his people approve me, approve of me.
Zoran:And that opened up Joss South. That opened up many other opportunities. And it's a really, really important relationship. Because I think if he wouldn't have bought in, it would have been really hard to do my work. Yeah.
Zoran:And also the fact that he was the wing commander at the time, Coots.
Bryan:Would that be Dan Coots?
Zoran:Yes. Brigadier general now, I believe.
Bryan:Yep. Yep.
Zoran:Yeah. So very important, like, highly educated in in these in these topics and organizational culture and fully bought into this, and he was supportive of all the initiatives.
Bryan:Yeah. Dan's an amazing guy. We've had him on the show before, and he's such a good guy.
Zoran:You have? Oh, cool.
Bryan:Yeah. And even like so he that was when he was the wing commander of Moose Jaws when I had him on. And such a nice guy. And even like at the time, I had some stuff that I wasn't sure what to do with the podcast kind of moving forward. I was at a fork in the road and Sky's had expressed interest in doing the show, but I was just getting out of the military medically and I didn't know if I could handle the stress.
Bryan:And like, we just sort of talked it talked it through, and he kinda gave me some, like, mentorship and some advice. And I was like, man, this guy is this guy is something special. Yep. A 100%. Yeah.
Bryan:Great leader. Really great leader. So some listeners probably don't know what Jaw South is. Can you just briefly explain, like, what it is and then maybe take us through a day there and where you fit into the schedule?
Zoran:So, again, I'm not a I don't work I'm a civilian contractor currently for the DND within the CFB of business climate. So I'm not, like, a official representative for it. But in general, from what I noticed, from my knowledge, it was, Jaw South was a was a detachment, and and I don't know if it still happens. And it was essentially because in the winter, it's really cold in Moose Jaw, and sometimes sorties get canceled. And so it was to get a lot of Xs, to to get a lot of students flying, and and instructors as well, truck rides and stuff like that.
Zoran:And so experiencing another environment is really valuable for anybody. Mhmm. Like, can you because you have the Moose Jawisms. Right? The the people get used to the the the way tower communicates in Moose Jaw.
Zoran:It's like, can you deal with the Texas tower now? And like, they they don't say things and package things the same way. Being away from home for those who relocated to Moose Jaw with families. Like, can you be away for a period of time, for those who haven't deployed before? So a day, a typical day would be, for the pilots, varied.
Zoran:Like they would typically fly twice a day, you know, twice a day or once a day. For me, I would get on to one of the morning shuttles. We had these kind of big bands that would take us to to the hangars and I'd get into one of them, like either the first or the second one in the morning and, get to the hangar, be there until probably the early afternoon, and then head back with, with some of the instructors and, or student pilots. And during my time in the at the airport there, I would basically work in the cracks. That's what I call it.
Zoran:Working in the cracks. There's no formal plan. I'm not doing, like, briefings. Like, there's everybody's focused on their own stuff. Between briefs, I'm catching a moment with a pilot to maybe ask a question their instructor did it.
Zoran:I'm sitting in on briefs. I'm watching, like, formation flying briefs and and then asking a question or or off the back of a debrief, asking a question. So I I had sort of free rein because I had good buy in from the chain of command. I'd go to the to the tower from time to time to hear the comms and to to see some of that in action and to to understand the other side of flying, right, to see what was being said to them because I'm I can't be in the plane with them.
Bryan:Of course.
Zoran:Yeah. And then after after a day of work, I think the work continued, but it was it was really fun. I'd I'd play sports with instructors because that's kinda who I hung out out with the most. The we would, you know, hit the gym. And, again, you're building relationships.
Zoran:Like, I really again, I value relationships. And this was one of those places where I deepened my relationships with these folks because I didn't have my family either. Right? Like, I'm going down just like they are. And, and I'm I'm getting the the same kinda per diems as they are.
Zoran:And so I'm I'm in the same hotel hotel room as they are. And so we'd grab dinner or play play Mario Kart or go out to the town, go for a walk, and all that in service to to play and building relationships. Instructors would then give me leads on which students to connect with. And I would offer that that help to students. Right?
Zoran:Some students would text me kinda on their own, but what I found is that being on-site was sometimes enough of a performance enhancer without me having to talk to people. Mhmm. Because people know the things that I've talked about and seeing me almost nudge them to think about the mental factor and the mental aspect of it.
Bryan:It's like a cue.
Zoran:That's why it's a cue. It is. And, and so that's why I really vouch for the importance of having embedded embedded specialists on-site within these within these units who get the people, who know the people, and and to have these almost like integrated support teams of people, of of both mental performance and physical performance and nutrition, and then having those people really work together to help folks. And I think of the the Luke Air Force Base, the Titan Project down in The States. They've got all this seemingly fully integrated into one cohesive team that helps the pilots.
Zoran:Right? And it's, you just need really great people. Mhmm. So, yeah. It's a really good experience.
Bryan:You've talked about how this is like more of an informal process when you're down in Jaw South. Was there ever a situation where like a student comes to you and they're like, holy crap. Like, I gotta fly in five minutes or I gotta fly in an hour. I'm super stressed out. Like, what do we do?
Bryan:Like, how do you do, like, a ad hoc quick shot session?
Zoran:Yeah. I'm not a motivational coach, so I wouldn't you know, it's not like the thing you'd see in the movies of like, no. You got this. Yeah. Yeah.
Zoran:Not not necessarily the thing people wanna hear. I would so knowing the people, I tended to know I would tended to know what made people tick. And if somebody needed more of a kick in the butt versus kind of a kind hand on the shoulder, that's what I did. So it depended on the person. So I'd say, in general, I try to remind them of the work they put in and the effort they put in, maybe to remind them to take a breath to focus what's within their control.
Zoran:Like, those are pretty generic principles that anybody can apply at any moment. But Right. In that context, it helps when your mind's kinda going into overdrive. It helps to have the expert go, hey. Do this.
Bryan:Yeah. Like, okay. Oh, for sure. Like, even from my own experience within, like, mental health, like, I've been going to therapy for, like, five years now. But still, if I'm having a hard day and I'm talking to my therapist and they'll be like, hey.
Bryan:Remember this very basic tool? And you're like, oh, yeah. Like Totally. I wasn't even thinking about that because your mind is just, like, maxed out. Right?
Bryan:Like, your bucket is full and you forget about the basics.
Zoran:Totally. Yeah. It's the human condition, man. We we all we all have a very similar brain. Mhmm.
Zoran:Different in a certain sense, but it's a very evolutionarily tens of thousands of years old and definitely not made for the fast paced environment we're living in currently. Yeah.
Bryan:So, after you were at Moose Jaw, you went on to become the mental performance manager for the RCAF. The question I most wanna ask you about that is how do you make progress when an idea shows up like a useful new idea in a relatively slow moving institution?
Zoran:Relationships. Again, and and I'll I'll, I'll back that up with with evidence here. So there was, there was some pretty cool tech, that Jamie and Major Combo and I saw when we were down in in Texas on a on a site visit to, to a US Air Force base. And we wanted to buy the tech to use in the different kind of flying schools. Right?
Zoran:And so the formal procurement and approval process is really freaking slow. And this thing wasn't, like, $100,000. It was like a $5,000 piece of tech or it might have even been like 2,600 or something. And briefing notes, quotes, this, that. I presented the idea to the CEO and I said, this is really cool.
Zoran:I think we could use it here. He said, give me give me, like, a half a page write up of why you think it's important and and and I can use unit funds for
Bryan:it. Awesome.
Zoran:So that to me, that's bureaucracy would have been going through all the different if I know the clients need something, they if I know the clients need something and it's not happening because of a slow moving process, can I find a quicker way to access that? The other example is, I think, building out I built out this relaxation room in Moose Jaw. And that relaxation room is just a space for pilots to disconnect because everything's in a classroom, especially when they're going through training. Like, there's, you got people all around you. So I decided to build a space that was just for relaxing, that had more, like, relaxing plants or music or lighting because that industrial lighting kinda kills you a little bit.
Zoran:And it had a massage chair. But to get to that, it took it took navigating the bureaucracy and finding pots of money that were gonna support that.
Bryan:Mhmm.
Zoran:And I think not I think. Like, that is still around. That's still a thing that's being used, but it took some time as well. Like, it took time getting proof of concept and approvals and the right person to say yes. But, but it is those kind of things are worthwhile because it's something that idea came from them.
Zoran:I was just the the facilitator that made that happen. And I knew they needed that and I knew they were gonna use it. And, so, yeah. And then seeing people using that, your eyes light up. Like I had, I remember having, at the time, Wing Commander Coots and his leadership team come and try it.
Zoran:And it was special. They're like, oh, this is great. Like, this is why haven't we had this before? Yeah. And it's things like that that make navigating the bureaucracy worthwhile.
Zoran:Yeah. Awesome.
Bryan:So this last couple things that we're gonna talk about here is a really cool experience. You talked to someone who I would one day love to have on the show. So if you are out there listening right now, colonel Jeremy Hansen, you know where my socials are at pod pilot project. You mentioned meeting colonel Jeremy Hansen. How did that happen?
Zoran:So he came to do I believe it was, like it's probably about a year or a year and a half before Artemis.
Bryan:Okay.
Zoran:Might been a might have been a bit less. And he came to Moose Jaw to talk about the mission and and, there's a bunch of people at at the event and and it was really great. He had videos and things. And so what I it was super funny. This kid I love kids.
Zoran:Kids are amazing. And kids some of these kids ask the questions that I wanted to ask, but I was too, like I'm like, I can't ask that question. One of the kids raised his hand, and they're like, is there pizza in space? And he's
Bryan:like because if there's not, I don't wanna go.
Zoran:He's like, if there's not, I don't wanna go. He's like, well, yeah, there there kind of is but it's and he's trying to explain to the kid like the food situation and it's like not the same and, like, you have it comes in packets. And then this other kid raises his hand. He's like, is there aliens in space? And it really like, you can't media prep for that.
Zoran:You can't media prep for a kid who's gonna raise their hand. He's like, well, you know, when I became an astronaut and I got my top secret clearance, I thought they were gonna give me all these files and talk about this. And, he's like, I and then he talked about his personal opinion about it, but I just found that so so touching, and he he was so great with answering these questions. But after in in the mess, grabbing a drink, I just I came up to him and we we chatted, and he was, he was great. And and I what I specifically asked him was, how do you prepare your mind and body for for this mission?
Zoran:And, like, what are you gonna do when you're actually in orbit? And he talked about the importance of, like, physical training and and how, obviously, the the the machine like, you can't lift weights in space, so there's specific, like, specific, equipment for that. But then he talked about the importance of mindfulness and and, taking care of your mind and and the challenges of maintaining that as a habit. And so so that's how it came to be. It wasn't, it wasn't like a chance encounter.
Zoran:It was it was kind of talking to him after this this awesome kind of event that they'd put on.
Bryan:Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. He you know, I've only obviously, I've just seen him through, like, social media and the news and and and, of course, the Artemis mission, which, you know, we watched live with with my boys. And but he just seems like an amazing guy.
Bryan:Just like he's a great speaker. He's a wonderful representative of Canada. Yep. He is. Just seems like an all around good guy.
Bryan:And and, of course, like an astronaut, you know, they're gonna be, like, an extremely resilient like, they must be an extremely resilient person who is, you know, very internally motivated and Mhmm. Just have a lot of good qualities that will make you succeed in such an austere environment.
Zoran:Well, look, their their time and space is scripted down to the five minute chunk. Yeah. So they they'd better be and I mean, I I can't imagine the rigorous process, both physical and mental assessments that they go through to actually being selected to being a being an astronaut. Because, like, the last thing you need is somebody not being a good teammate. Yeah.
Zoran:It's because it's, it's a confined space. People do all sorts of things when they're confined and and away from Earth for a long period of time, but I would I would love to meet Colonel Hadfield.
Bryan:Oh, yeah. He's another of my top, I actually met him when I was when I was a instructor on gliders with the air cadets. He was the guest of honor at a graduation. And so he gave us a presentation afterwards at The Mess of the, you know, slideshows in space and all that stuff. And then he hung out with us at The Mess, and he's he's amazing.
Bryan:He, you know, he's playing guitar and singing and playing crud with us and doing all the different stuff. He's a great guy. I I he's also like him and Jeremy Hansen are kind of my two dream guests currently. So, know, Chris Hadfield, I'm sure you're also out there listening to the show. You know, reach out if you wanna be on the show.
Zoran:Yeah. He's he's on I love his book, An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth.
Bryan:Yep. So look. I I'm gonna throw a curveball at you. For sure, somebody in Moose Jaw is gonna be listening to this, like, the night before a test or something. What is the thing they can do, like, in the next twelve hours to most prepare themself for success?
Zoran:Get a good night's sleep.
Bryan:For sure.
Zoran:Sleep is the biggest performance enhancer. So put down the books. Think about all the preparation you've done up to this point and really do what you need to do to get yourself to sleep, to relax. And if you're not sleeping, also don't stress it. So I'd say that's the number one thing somebody could do.
Zoran:I'd say if there was another like a mental tool, like I'd say either if there's somebody who's done visualization before, like most pilots do chair flying. So that's basically what visualization is. And I'd say visualize yourself having success, visualize yourself getting through tough things, getting through tough moments, not just the easy ones. And maybe the last one I'll say is breathing. Taking a moment to just down regulate the nervous system to relax, shut down the engine, do your do your post flight checklist, you know, metaphorically speaking, of course, to shut down your body because it's really important Yeah.
Zoran:To to do that so you get better sleep. And when you get better sleep, you're gonna retain more of what you learn throughout the day and the week because that's where learning happens while we sleep. And and then you're gonna perform better. Awesome. Self trust.
Bryan:So there you go to LT so and so, whoever is listening to this and stressing out about their test tomorrow. We hope you do awesome. You will do awesome. And if this is you, you know, feel free to reach out to the show and tell us about your your experience. Okay, Zoran.
Bryan:That is going to wrap up part one of our conversation today. I really, really enjoyed hearing about the road that brought you from sport to coaching pilots and some of your, experiences in that world. I'm really excited to hear about, sort of distilling that experience into some practical advice for our listeners. And, yeah, I just wanna thank you for being here today for the first episode we've recorded in our new house in Ontario. Thank you.
Zoran:Awesome. Thanks for having me. Okay.
Bryan:Okay. That wraps up part one of this two part series on mental performance coaching in military aviation. I am really looking forward to the next episode where we're going to break down some of this into actionable advice for pilots and other high performers. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show? Would you or someone you know make a great guest, or do you have a great idea for a show?
Bryan:You can reach out to us at The Pilot ProjectPodcast@Gmail.com or on all social media at at pod pilot project. And be sure to check out that social media for lots of great videos of our RCAF and Mission Aviation aircraft. As always, we'd like to thank you for tuning in and ask for your help with the big three. That's like and follow us on social media, share with your friends, and follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your podcasts. That's all for now.
Bryan:Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four. Shutting down all four engines.