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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
Hey guys, welcome to this week's episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Cody Buriff and this week I get to host with a coworker and a friend of mine. I've called him a ninja of words before in the past. Welcome Michael Krommendyk
Michael Krommendy
Yeah. Hey, thank you. I don't have any like ninja costumes or anything, but I'd be open to trying it, but I'm just grateful to be here.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, man. My, well, it's really fun to work with you. It's fun to know you. It's good to know you. And I think I just want to jump straight into our conversation for this episode because we've talked about this briefly in the past. And I know that there is way more to this story than I've even heard. And so I think this could be some really good stuff for our listeners, for the men who are listening, particularly those who are Christians and in varying levels and degrees of disorientation.
with their faith and with the church. so, yeah, Michael, I kind of want to just turn you loose. I know that you have a an interesting story, an interesting history over the last, I don't know, I want to say five or 10 years. I don't even know the time frame. But how would you start? How would you start the story?
Michael Krommendyk
I think where I would start just for context sake, Cody is, and I think I've been a lot more aware of this in the last several years is when we're talking about the bride of Christ, when we're talking about church, and I know a lot of us go like, okay, let's be clear right now. Like when we're talking about church, we're talking about an organization quite often, right? So just the clarity right now of
When I refer to church, like I'm talking about a lot of times small C church, right. Which what does that mean to you, Cody? Like the small, when I say small C church, what does that mean?
Cody Buriff
Small C Church is so if so, let me say like Big C Church is like the worldwide body of Christ. Everybody, you know, who's a Christian and the Small C Church is like the building down the street that has some people that meet there on Sundays. Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. So a lot of what I'm talking about today is, and I'll bring clarity when I'm talking about the other, but a lot of what I'm talking about today is our experience with Small C Church, my experience with Small C Church. And I think it's important for us to go into this conversation, recognizing that there is a tension. Okay. Like we have to be aware. And I might even, I'll probably tear up multiple times, but this is
A part that I'm, I'm truly passionate about, man, I believe in the beauty and the glory and the goodness of the church of Jesus Christ. Like, and I, like, I look at her and I see, man, like she is, there's times where she shines. There's times where she just looks like the most beautiful bride and someone who is like inviting people to come and experience, right?
Cody Buriff
Totally.
Michael Krommendyk
And like, as you and I both know, there's also times where it's just been, and I don't know if I really want to have anything to do with her. You know, like, and I'm not even going to talk to specifics. I can, I'll share my story, but I think we need to start with that tension is that like, we're talking about the bride of Christ and that we're talking about big C church. Like that is.
the beauty and the goodness and the glory of who she is and that we get to be a part of her. We get to be a part of something bigger than us. When we talk about small C church, there is an element also to the bride of Christ, but there is also like organizations, right? Like, and I think especially in the world that we live in, in Western Christianity, it can often feel like our church, small C church is like corporations or it's a community. And those are wonderful words to use.
But there's also an idea of like either you're in or you're out of the community. And what does it actually mean to be in the community or maybe not feel like I fit in the community. And I think that's what maybe we just need to start with a recognition of. Cause I, I have a feeling that whoever like maybe was browsing past a title of a podcast and came upon this. I wonder if some of us like come in because
Man, I've experienced varying degrees of hurt and pain in this thing that is supposed to be a place of belonging and where I'm seen and known and loved, where I can use my gifts, where my family can learn and grow and become all these things in the kingdom of God. yes, all of those things are good and true and needed, but we can't ignore also the stories like I'm about to share of like, well, that doesn't feel true.
You know? so I feel like, I'd love to get your thoughts on that, but I feel like it's important to kind of start there and then I'm happy to jump in.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. mean, it's, probably worth giving those caveats for sure. Like we, I would even speak just on behalf of restoration project and say like, are a Christian men's ministry organization. we like Jesus. We're part of the big C church. We're not a little C church. We're an organization, but it's, it is a little different ministry, but, we're part of the big C church and we love the big C church. And when it comes to like little C church experiences and even traditions, like
even just on our staff team, like there is a pretty wide like variety of like backgrounds, which is pretty cool. Yeah. And so just to put that out there as well, like we're not tied to a denomination and we're not talking particular denomination or anything of that sort. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Michael, I want to hear the story, man. Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. And I think I'm just in the space where, okay, where do I begin? I was born on a warm summer's day. But I want to encourage like the listeners to recognize that there is a big story, right? Like were you raised in church? Were you not raised in church? What did that look like? Were you Christmas and Easter folks? Were you everyday set kind of people? And I'll just say like church for me and for our family took up a huge part of our childhood.
Like it was, we were there every time the doors were open. We did go to a Christian school. I went through a Christian school, K through 12. So I was constantly either in the church around church people, or like even when I was with my family and extended family, like this was all I was around. Yeah. And I have to again say there's beauty to that. There's goodness in that. And there's also like, man, I didn't have much other context.
Right. So when I think about like the things that led me as I grew into adolescence and into adulthood, like it didn't take long for me to realize that like church was not only something that like I was committed to and like poured myself out into a place that I could use my gifts, but it's also a place that I wanted to, I felt God leading me to be on the team, like on a, in a vocational role.
And I like, did that when I was 21 years old, believe it or not, like just a punk little kid becoming a worship pastor at a church in the Midwest. And people started calling me pastor Mike. It was like, this is weird. Like all the people I used to look up to, used to call pastor Mike, you know? And so I also bring that into this conversation just to recognize that wherever you are,
in this journey of your relationship with the church. Like I recognize that there's probably some of us listening that have given and poured themselves out a lot to the church. And I certainly fit into that category. I think my story where I want to really like dive in was some things that happened. We're talking like kind of began 15 years ago. At that time, I was in the ministry in vocational ministry for just over 10 years.
I think my wife were at that time on the West coast and raising our little family of four kids all under the age of probably seven, four kids under seven. Yeah. So it was, it was quite the journey. And then in an area of the country that we'd never been in, that we really didn't know anybody that we came like to that part of the country to serve on that church. And that church became really,
our kids' school, like it became our place of work, but our faith community and so many people that we know and love and who are still there are part of that community. So, and that began just like such a good space to be in, right? I think what I wasn't aware of, I think, was a lot of the legalism. ⁓ It was pretty works heavy, even though they talked about the grace of God and like,
that we are sons and daughters of God. It felt like there was always like little hooks, little things that were like, yeah, but you still have to do this. And you still like, there are requirements, you know. And it came across as like, for me and my wife anyways, like it came across as like, man, this journey, this walk with God, it feels really heavy. Like it actually feels like too much.
And we even got to the point, like a couple years into being with that community that we were like asking the question, which is actually, it's a provocative and it's a dangerous question, especially when all you've known is the church and it's, is this all there is? Like we're doing the things we're doing the devotions, we're raising our family, we're going to church and
And like, have this at that time, kind of a transactional relationship with God, but like, is this it? scary, like really scary questions to ask. And actually I think I needed my wife along with me in that season to let me know that it's okay to ask those questions because there's that and those and so many other questions. can be really good questions to ask. Yeah, for sure. And where that led us actually.
Cody Buriff
That's a big one.
Michael Krommendyk
was to scripture, was to some other like external books and some other ministries. But really, really it led us to kind of this revelation of the grace and the kindness and the mercy of God. And that we didn't need to become or try to fit into some box to have this relationship with God. But we, we just were loved.
And in a way, like going through that season, as I think about it now, there's part of me that was just like, Whoa, is this really the gospel? Like, is this really, it feels too good to be true. And I'm also kind of duped because I felt like, what the heck? I was handed this other gospel of sorts that like said that I had to do all these things and become all these things and, hit all these bars to feel acceptable. And then I find out again,
setting the stage, Cody, like I'm 10 years in ministry. I'm leading worship in front of a church of a couple hundred people. I'm with my family. We're in a totally different part of the country that we're not familiar with. And we're going through this space of like kind of our world spinning a little bit. What's interesting is it was enough kind of like connected to the church.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
that it wasn't, it didn't, when I talked, like I, I shared messages about like being forgiven and that there were no, like, you are forgiven. Like that is it. Right? Like you are accepted. You are made righteous through the blood of Christ. You are all these things. And I would have people come up to me during those times, like literally with their Bibles in hand, looking me square in the eyes saying, wait, wait, is this true? Is this what? Wow. Do you get what I'm saying? So like it felt like that's the disconnect.
of like, it felt like a different kind of gospel. And it was a beautiful time. And it was like a scary time too, because I think my wife and I knew that every Sunday, I knew this, especially every Sunday after the sermon, I would get up and usually lead a song of worship. And I'm a feeler. I'm a read the room guy. And I would get up on stage and feel after.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
having a message that like, has some grace, but also has kind of a millstone with it too. I could feel the eyes of people look at us saying, Hey, I thought I was doing good. Like I thought this feels really heavy. Right. And I think my wife and I knew that there was probably something, there was a disconnect, you know, between where we were, where we had come even in a short amount of time and where the church was. Yeah.
So that's kind of where we landed. And I'll just briefly tell, like, I don't want to give all the details. That's not honestly an important part of the story, but ultimately what that led to was a confrontation with some of the church leadership who basically came to us and said, Hey, what do you believe about grace? What do you believe about forgiveness? What do you believe about like the state of your heart? Is it good or is it bad? Like, do you, what do you believe about all these things?
And thankfully, I think before we had that confrontation, the meeting was set up and I sat down on my bed with my wife and we grabbed our Bible and we went through the things that we were like, I'm not willing to budge on this. I'm not willing to budge that I'm a son, that I'm a daughter of the living God. I'm not willing to budge that he sees me as clean and beautiful and good. I'm not willing to budge that I'm like forgiven, that I'm set free, that I'm accepted.
And we sat on that and we went into that meeting the next day, recognizing that this probably means that, that we may not be here in this place. And ultimately that was the case. It was a confrontation and it, essentially we were told, you know, especially in the following days that like, Hey, we're going to let you go. And we weren't able to really even have, not at all have closure with.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
the four years that we spent there and the people that we poured into. And we found ourselves 13 years ago in California saying, okay, what now? Really with our world spinning and the way I've told this story in the past too before for me personally, Cody, had never in my life, never in my life have I felt that alone.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Like questioning myself, like, did I mess this up? Like, even though there was goodness in my wife and I going into that meeting together, like sitting there, I remember walking in a park, like weeping, just saying, I need somebody to tell me that I'm not insane because I have a wife and four kids and we don't have a job and we are in a place that's unfamiliar. What the heck do we do now?
Cody Buriff
Yeah, like literally, especially for somebody in vocational ministry at that point. Yeah. Like, if you have to leave a church, you lose your community, your job, your income, like your security, like probably your location, like everything that is known, you know, that's a big deal.
Michael Krommendyk
It is. And all of that and what you didn't mention was not that I would say that I felt like I was losing my faith, but I certainly was like, what am I doing? Because my faith, my theology was directly related to the reason why I was asked to leave. So yeah, like it was, and I think, I think what I'd like to spend time with, like that was the story, right? But what I'd really love to spend.
Cody Buriff
Ha. Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
more time talking about is like what has happened in the last. Yeah. Like we've, that was 13 years ago.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. So what's happened in the last 13 years, Michael? Like what? Yeah. Fill in the gap.
Michael Krommendyk
Hahaha!
Yeah. I think I'll say, and again, this will continue in our journey with talking about church and the beauty and the goodness of her and also what her role is in the healing process. And I'll tell you, like that happened to us. And the next week we were at church, not that church, obviously, but we were at a different church and, a random church just in a different part of the country in that area. we went to that a couple of times and then.
Eventually felt God moving us. Well, honestly, we just wanted to be close to family. So we kind of packed up a thing, a pod right at our home, not knowing where we would be next or what we would be doing. And we moved to Colorado because my wife's mom and dad lived there and they were the closest to us. And honestly, in that sense of isolation, we just wanted to.
Sorry. We just wanted to be around people that we knew loved us because we didn't feel that. Yeah. We didn't feel that. And, ⁓ and, and yeah, we had to drive several hundred miles to get that, but not only did they receive us with open arms, her mom and dad, but also like my wife's mom, she said, Hey, like, I know a little bit of like,
kind of where you guys have been and where you're at in your faith. And why don't you check out this church, this local church. And we went to that church and the very first Sunday we knew, this is home. This is a place. We sensed the love and the kindness and the welcome of God in that space. like we, there are so many micro stories within that that I just don't have time to share, but just.
moments where God continued to reveal, hey, like this is a place of healing. This is a safe place for you and your family to learn and grow and to ground yourself and find community. And that was like the beginning of the story, right? That was the beginning of the healing that God took us through. The first time I went in, the senior pastor, one of the first Sundays we were there, he heard a little bit about our story and he said, this was absolute kindness. said, listen,
welcome here. You guys are welcome here. And I want to invite you to come into the service late, to sit in the back row and to leave the service early if you want to. Just that kindness of like saying, Hey, like there is nothing required of you here. And that felt so kind as well. So there just continued to be moments of like where God was using the church to heal me from some of the church wounds, right?
I don't know, like a year and a half later, I was eventually on staff at that church being a part of campus ministry, a campus, a satellite campus and leading worship and doing things that, that I did before. again, like being on a staff that, being on that staff was so healing. Yeah. I can't say enough beauty and goodness about what God did in that church here in Colorado.
Yeah, there's a lot of goodness there.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. And Michael, if I understand correctly, that's not the whole story.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah, you're right. And, ⁓ I think really the whole story comes when I begin to realize there's a lot more deeper work for me that I need to do. Not only do I need to get into my story with church, but before I did that, I actually had to get into my story of me as a boy. You know, I had to get into like, what, what is the role? What, what has church been for me? What place has that held for me? Right. Before I could get into.
the trauma of what happened at that previous church. Like I had to like ask myself and have people come alongside of me. Chris Bruno was one of those that come along side of me and really say, okay, like, tell me about this little boy that suddenly became pastor Mike. And then eventually moved his family out to a different part of the country. And, and then like the rug was pulled out from under him. And I needed to learn about that.
I did just sit with that before I could even like dig into the actual church hurt. And I think when I began to like then dig into the church hurt, I realized nothing really changed with the church that we were a part of. Like there was still healing, there was still goodness, but I, I'll be honest, Cody, like I was activated a lot more as time went on at this church here in Colorado.
Cody Buriff
And when you say, like, for guys that are listening, you say activated. What do mean?
Michael Krommendyk
I mean, like, like again, nothing had changed about the healing nature of that church, about the, even the senior pastor and the people there loved and healed and like poured into me and my family. But as I, as I began to dig into my story with the church and some of that pain, think there's a part of me that began to like just like kind of push that pain or project that pain onto other people in that church that were not the perpetrators.
Yeah. Right. But I would see little things here and there and I would like feel it in my body to where it was just like, no, it's happening again. Right. And as we talk about like in not only restoration project, but the ReStory side of what I'm a part of, of going into your story, I didn't, I didn't fully realize that that was the younger parts of me that were just screaming out saying, Hey, we're not okay. And he needed to be tended to. And it was in that season.
that I had a meeting with a guy whom I actually, he's a restoration project guy and I actually haven't met with him since. He's since has like some other things going on in his life and I just haven't connected with him too much. But I had just a random meeting, lunch meeting with him once and I, shared some of this stuff with him. He's a very familiar with church work himself has been in the ministry and now was in a pair of church kind of ministry himself. And I sat across the table from him having lunch, shared my story. He met me in that space.
And then he asked me a question. I think that really shifted my perspective and honestly, probably scared the crap out of me. And he said, Michael, do you think like you've experienced some healing in the church? Do you think you're able to continue to heal like Jesus wants you to heal while being on staff still at a church? Like, is this the setting? Is this the environment that you need to continue to be in to be
in this space, right? To continue the healing process. That scared the crap out of me. Cause at that point, like I had been doing church ministry for like 18 years.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. That's been your vocation as a know, like you're... Yeah! Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
Yeah. Like, so yeah, I was like, I was 40 years old and it was, it was a shock, but I knew the answer when he asked the question. I knew the answer was, I don't think I can. I don't think it's actually, it's not only not fair to me. This sounds weird, but I don't think it's fair to the people that are, are ministering alongside of me and I'm like putting things on them that don't belong.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Michael Krommendyk
They're kind and were gentle with me in that, but I think I needed to careers at 40. Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Scary?
Michael Krommendyk
Wow. That I think that's something that as I've been reflecting of it in it, something that we don't talk about a lot in the healing is like, like when you've experienced trauma or healing or, um, whatever, just wounds or deep things that are going on that you need to address. What is the setting of the healing process? Like, what does that look like for you? Like, what is the atmosphere that you need to be in for healing? Okay. You and I talked a couple of weeks ago.
And I kind of likened it to like a sports injury, right? Like if you're a quarterback and you injured your shoulder, right? Like you still want to be a part of the team. You still want to be around, right? But like for you to get out on the practice field when there's still significant pain and sometimes like I think especially maybe in football more than in the sport, it's like, play foot, play through it, play through it. Right. And then you have these, you have, so you have the guys who just like play through it, play through it, play through it. That's what we do.
Maybe even what men do, right? Like we stay in the atmosphere where we're successful, where we feel like we have a place. Keeps throwing the ball with my sore shoulder. Right. And yeah, eventually they'll retire. But how many of those guys, those great quarterbacks even who retire, they like can't throw a ball for the rest of their lives. Like they can't like, it's like useless because they didn't allow the complete healing. And I understand like.
Maybe it wax, you, don't understand, like, but they just keep using it. Right. When in reality, and I know this isn't always like this opportunity isn't always afforded to us in reality. Sometimes we need to step away and allow that part to just like be slinged up a little bit and allow the healing to take place maybe in a different setting where we're not activated like that, like in a constant constant way.
Does that make sense? I'm curious.
Cody Buriff
Make. Totally. Yeah, yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense. And I get it like as guys, especially, think, is guys. We don't like to do that. We do play through it. And so it's a good word.