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If you've ever felt anxious about posting on social media, or you've had that pit in your stomach feeling after receiving a strange comment at any point, today's episode is for you. Welcome to the Muthership Creator Strategy. I have a very special guest with me. Doctor. Bonnie Zucker is a psychologist based in Los Angeles who specializes in anxiety, including social anxiety, panic attacks, and my personal favorite, perfectionism, because that I'm guilty of.
Helen:Her credentials are so impressive, so I'm gonna put them in the show notes. She has a bachelor's degree from Cornell, a PhD from UCLA, you can read all about that. She's a published author, co founder of a psychological consulting group, and all of it will be readable. But today, we are gonna focus on how she has translated that psychological research into practical tools that you can use in your everyday life with regard to anxiety and mental health on social media. Welcome Bonnie.
Dr. Bonnie:Thank you, Helen. You for such a nice hear. Yeah. Such a nice intro. And, you know, I'm a little starstruck, I'm gonna admit, because I've I've been following you for such a long time, and I just love all your content.
Dr. Bonnie:I am a loyal podcast listener, I just... I'm so happy to to happen to be on.
Helen:So great. It's so funny because I get that occasionally where people are like, I feel like I'm talking to somebody famous, and I'm always like, no. It's just me. I'm the same here. I don't I don't know.
Helen:It's it's a funny thing that happened in my world where I'll get people stopping me on the street and that's a whole other psychological study we can talk about. My god. Because I'm like, thank god they walk up to me. Otherwise, they'll be looking at me without telling me, you know? Yeah.
Helen:But let... I wanna start with your story because I understand that you were a little worried about posting on social media yourself. So I'd like to talk about it from your perspective and then weave it into how other people can use the tools that you use to get over it. Right.
Dr. Bonnie:That okay? That working? Yes, of course. So so let me start off. So I'm a psychologist and my specialization is in anxiety.
Dr. Bonnie:And when I was in graduate school in my my lab, we would joke that research is me search. And that like everyone in the... All all the students in the anxiety lab were... Had some sort of form of anxiety. And I I fit right in.
Helen:I think that's usually why people are drawn to a profession, though.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. Speak to a lot of
Helen:dentists and it's like usually they've had some either dramatic or horrible or fantastic dental experience and that's what led them to it. So very interesting that that's where we end up, you know?
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm someone who... I I have a history of social anxiety.
Dr. Bonnie:I don't... I used to be so so shy. It took me a while to get mostly over it. And I am not some... So I'm Gen X, so I did not grow up with everyone videoing me.
Dr. Bonnie:And whenever I would see myself on video, I would just always feel so hypercritical. So even my wedding video, I think I've... It was a waste of money because I've literally watched maybe part of it once. So it's just it's like painful. So I just feel so self critical.
Dr. Bonnie:And I never thought that I would be anyone who would be posting on social media, not much less videos.
Helen:Wow. Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. So I was not... This was not what I wanted. So... But then I I started writing and I wrote a book proposal and I started querying some agents.
Dr. Bonnie:And most of them did not write back to me. One agent was kind enough to write back to me. And she said, you know, because you're writing self help, because you're writing non fiction, you really need to have platform. So you need to have a lot of social media followers and and so on. I'm like, ugh.
Dr. Bonnie:So... Know. So, I I think at at the time, I had had a Twitter account but I just it just didn't really feel like it resonated and and I did think, you know, I could... I talk about anxiety all day long with clients. It would be...
Dr. Bonnie:And I've always been really interested in kind of, like, getting out information into the world. And so I thought, you know, okay, maybe this is my sign that I need to take a plunge into creating video content. And so I started... So so I had a... I opened a a professional Instagram.
Dr. Bonnie:Immediately, all of my friends started following. And I'm like, I can't do this. Because that felt like too much Yes.
Helen:Yeah. So is... People don't like, you know, they don't like when when people they know are watching them. And it's so much easier to talk to strangers on the Internet, you know? Really, seems crazy.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. A 100%. So then I thought, okay. What about TikTok? I really...
Dr. Bonnie:I don't even know if I had had it at that point, but but then I saw that I I saw that something like a million new videos are uploaded every day. And I said, okay. Good. I will do this, and I will be a more anonymous on TikTok. Yeah, they did.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah, they did start recommending certain people to me like my clients. So, I immediately changed my settings, made them private so I wasn't findable or searchable or something or what I don't know what the setting was. You know what it was? It was just something with my contacts.
Helen:Connecting your contacts. Yeah. Connect your contacts.
Dr. Bonnie:Right. I made myself searchable. And so, you know, I did a funny thing with the first couple of my videos. And so I'm a psychologist. I specialize in anxiety.
Dr. Bonnie:And one thing we talk about is exposure therapy. So confronting your fears, but you don't necessarily like jump in, you know, head on in terms of like going to the worst case scenario or the for yourself. So I did a funny thing. I did a little, I don't know, it's two or three session series that maybe like 400 people saw. And I start my first video was I put a big hat on, I put dark sunglasses and a trench coat.
Dr. Bonnie:And I said, you know, I am anxious about being on TikTok and I'm gonna demonstrate. What?
Helen:That's funny.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah, it was cute. I it was funny. So I just explained these principles of exposure therapy. Then the next session, I took off one item of the clothing. And then the third one, And did that so, yeah, really...
Dr. Bonnie:So then I said, I'm gonna do one TikTok video a day. And I pretty much stuck to it for like several months. And I said to myself, okay, When I am going... When I get 10,000 followers on TikTok, I'm gonna tell the agent, and maybe I can get a contract for the book. And so I had 11,000 followers on TikTok, and she's like
Helen:That's pretty impressive considering, you know, you weren't even really up to doing it. People struggling to get a few thousand followers.
Dr. Bonnie:I was very impressed with myself, but the agent was not. She's like, you need
Helen:You need a million. No.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. She's like, well, she's You need at least a 100,000. You need to be doing TED talks. I'm like, oy. But, you know, I really, though...
Dr. Bonnie:And I subsequently later did write a book because a publisher had written... Had reached out to me because they did see some of my online content. They actually invited me to to write a book on panic attacks. But, you know, I really feel like... Well, that that what got me on, number one, is having a reason.
Dr. Bonnie:Like, having something that was very important to me. It wasn't like, oh, I should just start making content on social media. It was more like, it was, I wanna find an agent so I can get, you know, this book contract. That was the first thing. And then it kind of morphed into, you know, I really feel like I'm helping a lot of people.
Dr. Bonnie:Like, I've had people that have commented on my videos. They've said, you know, I had a video on nocturnal panic attacks. So panic attacks that wake you up from sleep. And I did maybe like a a two minute video. And I had someone who said, you know, I've struggled with panic attacks for like fifteen years and nocturnal panic attacks for seven and nobody has nobody has explained this to me as well as you just did.
Dr. Bonnie:Which in some ways is very disturbing, you know, that here's Yeah. Something like it is really important to really, you know, have a lot of this, like, you know, evidence based information, like accurate information because there's so much misinformation. So, you really do need people to to really step it up like that and then, you know, it just, it really started building my confidence by doing it over and over again. I actually even then ended up doing a podcast, which I, which, Helen, you're gonna be a guest on my podcast. Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Very soon. It's fun. Yeah, and I think, you know, it really has proven to me, having that... Finding your why, the exposure therapy, it really, really helps. Now one thing I really did worry about was the issue of negative comments.
Dr. Bonnie:And I thought that people were gonna be very critical of of... Just very critical. So I... Interestingly, it it hasn't been that bad. I mean, I I I
Helen:don't about negative comments actually almost separately. So before you go into that, I wanna just back up for a second because there's a few things that I... Instead of looking at my questions that I wrote for this episode, I'm actually gonna think... I'm on the spot thinking of the things I want to attach here. So my notes have just come up with something, which is, first, you used your own account and your own experience to share the learning, and it's almost like get more learning in real time about what works.
Helen:Yeah. So part of, yes, you have all the learning from your education, and you know about the psycho... Psychological things, but now you're testing them in real time with your own self. So that's one thing I observed and I and I love. The second thing I love is that you decided and created a habit by doing it every day.
Helen:So you made a decision, and so that decision was made. You're gonna post every day. So now you had to face your fear every day in in essential... Essentially. And then use your own experience and try the things that you are now advising people on.
Helen:This is what I love about this. Because you're not just like, rap, rap, rap, preaching. Yeah. You've actually done the work. And it's so weird and relatable to me because my first videos were just to learn the platform.
Helen:Never did I think I'd be here teaching anything about TikTok at all ever. I was like, oh, I'll make some videos. I know how to make videos. I'm in production. I probably now could figure out how to edit myself.
Helen:I've worked with editors. So I did the same parallel thing. Like, I took my own self. Everything I do now is experimenting for the things that I'm gonna teach, and you have done the same thing. Don't you think that's interesting?
Helen:Like, you've taken Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:That interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Helen:You've taken your knowledge, and you're like, okay. So now I'm gonna use my knowledge on myself and flip it around. And then actually, so now the things that you're gonna tell us are somewhat proven because you've been doing them. So it's not just from hearsay. It's from do say.
Helen:I just made that I
Dr. Bonnie:walked the walk. You walked the walk. Really will say just a couple other... Another thing. You know, one thing that is really hard for me is, even though I'm doing this right now, but it's sort of speaking off the cuff.
Dr. Bonnie:And so making these videos, you know, I had a topic, and initially, I would I would record them. I'd have to, like, stop the the recording, like, a million times because I just, like, you know, I just... It was very challenging to even just make one video. Yeah. And then...
Dr. Bonnie:And I know this is a little controversial, but I then discovered the teleprompter function on CapCut. And for me, writing out the scripts has been really helpful. I I... Late... Lately, though, I know I really wanna try to make my videos, like, more natural.
Dr. Bonnie:So I'm... You know, I sort of just try to have it there, but I'm not really, I'm not just Not leaning on it. A robot. Yeah.
Helen:Not just reading. Well, as you... Okay. This is what I've always said to people because a lot of a lot of people who wanna be influencers, they need to read... They need to be able to do copy because the client or the brand wants this to be said and that's...
Helen:And you have to remember all the things. So my answer to that has always been like, well, record it in in in short bursts so that you don't, and then you edit it, then you don't have to worry about using that teleprompter. But if you really wanna lean in is practice using the damn teleprompter so that it becomes easier to do. And this way, when you're reading, like, you can even ad lib in between the sentences to make it feel authentic. Because that's what I do when I read.
Helen:If I ever have to have something where I'm teleprompter... I'm I'm on a teleprompter, I just throw things in the middle of the sentences, like try to do the the me speak in between. Because then suddenly the whole thing doesn't feel so scripty.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes.
Helen:So I'm sure you've got, like, you've got a good skill at the at the Yes. Scripting content by now.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. But, you know, and I do think, you you know, if you... You've gotta be kinda real with yourself if you're going on, you know, embarking on this endeavor. And you gotta know what your strengths are and where you need support. And if you're someone who really does struggle with just talking in the...
Dr. Bonnie:Off the cuff. Yeah. Just off the cuff. Like, maybe you do need to think about how can I support myself? Is this gonna help me move forward?
Dr. Bonnie:You know? Ideally, yes. I would I would say.
Helen:So you're not getting stuck on the thing. Well, we must be... We must have a delay on our our audio. I'm sorry about that.
Dr. Bonnie:No. No. It's okay. But, yeah. So it's like the kind of thing, like, I really just...
Dr. Bonnie:I needed this... I needed the support to to get me to continue doing it, and and I'm doing it. And that's what's the most important is I'm actually meeting my goals. I'm, like, putting myself out there and and, educating people, and it's it's really been really rewarding.
Helen:It's it's so cool that you're living it yourself. And it's so nice to see that you've pushed through it for yourself. Because a lot of people never do it. And I meet with people all the time who I really wanna do it, and then I'll give them suggestions. Just do this and do this every, just try doing something as simple as this every day.
Helen:And some people just can't pull the trigger in a way. They can't, like, get themselves past it, and it's just too much in their head.
Dr. Bonnie:You know? So I think with those people, I I probably... If I... I I might just say, you know, why or do you wanna do this? And really get into, like, why to build motivation because the motivation has to be stronger than the anxiety in order for this to work.
Helen:Yes. So do you know you know I have I have a fear of heights maybe because I posted a video where I did paragliding?
Dr. Bonnie:Oh, yes. I think I saw that.
Helen:Okay. So I wanted to just... This is so relatable because I wanted to do it more than I was afraid. Yes. So it's like the motivation to wanna do it because it looks so cool, and I bet it feels so peaceful up there.
Helen:That won over my fear. It it got me past the point. So I was like, alright. I'm gonna push through the fear because I want this more than I don't want it. So, like, put...
Helen:If you want something, if you wanna share something more than you do wanna be afraid of it, that... Your motivation has to be stronger than the fear.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. A 100%. And that's what it was for me. It was like I was so motivated to get a book contract.
Helen:Oh, my God. Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. And that that was my motivation. And currently, you know, I've had, like, times... You know, I I started, like, a couple years ago, and I've just been... You know, there's been times where I'm, like, waxing and waning in and out of of of, you know, having more regular content.
Dr. Bonnie:But when I... I just always have to, like, connect to, okay, I'm writing a... I just started another book. I I really need to, like, you know, start to build up more of my following and my mailing list. And so that...
Dr. Bonnie:Or whenever I get a comment from someone like that person with a nocturnal panic attack, it's like, okay, I'm doing this because of this person and all the people like this. You know, I might not be thrilled about how I look today but does it really matter
Helen:if I'm Right. Helping Yeah. It's more important. So the motivation is more. Okay, so now let's just put this into almost layman terms to somebody who is really trying, like they can't even figure out what their, why their fear is, what their fear is.
Helen:So do you have a set of steps where you can say, okay, you already started to talk about it. Like figure out what their passion is. And then the next thing is to figure out what the most, they're most afraid of. Like, what's the next step in... Once they figure out, okay, this is why I wanna do it.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, yeah. Definitely figuring out the why, number one.
Dr. Bonnie:Because if if that's not there, this is gonna be hard to do. Mhmm. Because why are you doing... You know, because there's other things to do with your time. You don't have to be posting on social media.
Dr. Bonnie:Then I would probably say to someone, what is the barrier for you? Is it I'm afraid of negative comments and people being critical? I mean, a lot of these are actually deeper... Much deeper issues that have nothing to do with the social... The putting out the videos.
Dr. Bonnie:You know, like, maybe you had a very critical parent and you're someone who's... You're and then you're putting yourself out there to all these people who you don't even know. That's... I mean, that's like a legitimate... That's a legitimate issue.
Dr. Bonnie:It's... And and so you gotta think about that. Like, what am I afraid of? Is it that? Is it that I don't like the way I look?
Dr. Bonnie:Is it that I don't feel like I know what I'm talking about? Is it that I feel like I need to be perfect? So I would just... You know, I would... So then I would really look at what
Helen:they Identify that. Right. So identify that. And then you're gonna help them push past that.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. With, So I
Helen:like, tools, would you say? Or you would... I don't know.
Dr. Bonnie:Well, I think, yeah. So I think, first of all, identifying the reason gives you... Because it's like... Because I think most people, it's just like, yeah. I can't I can't...
Dr. Bonnie:I don't know if I can put myself out there. Whatever. But once you identify the reason, it's like, okay. Let's say the reason is I don't think I could handle these critical comments. Mhmm.
Dr. Bonnie:And then, you know, I guess it's... You know, I think I would just explore it. Like, you know, so so what if some random per... Like, what are you afraid of? Like, so what if some random person says x, y, and z, you know, to you?
Dr. Bonnie:Like, does it really matter? What's more important? Doing this for whatever that reason why was or, you know, possibly having some negative comments? Or how would you how would you cope with it? Is it gonna be the end of the world?
Dr. Bonnie:Are you gonna let one person's comment derail you? And so I kinda would just get into it with the person or, you know, with TikTok, The thing I like about TikTok compared to Instagram is that it just feels so much more real. I'm curious what you have to say. Yeah, I mean, Instagram is just much more curated. And, you know, I have to...
Dr. Bonnie:Whenever I post on Instagram, I feel like I have to, like, make a little cover for my reel on Canva. It's like a whole thing.
Helen:I stopped doing all that. I stopped doing all of it. I stopped doing all of that. Yeah. So on Instagram now, I just let my TikToks post automatically, and then I don't even bother with them.
Helen:I don't do thumbnails anymore. Like, who's looking at it? Who's judging the thumbnails? It doesn't matter. Yeah.
Helen:I've I've had to move on from it, and my Instagram is doing so much better. Oh, good. Good. It's it's like crazy the difference of what happened when I started doing that.
Dr. Bonnie:That's great.
Helen:Just almost, I hate to say it, but caring less
Dr. Bonnie:about.
Helen:I'm I'm treating Instagram exactly like TikTok now. That's great. TikTok maybe. Yeah. It's really nice.
Helen:It's like very freeing. Just Yeah. I just... I let the things go from TikTok. I use a repurpose.
Helen:I use a repurpose app. Repurpose just let things go from TikTok directly to Instagram and YouTube and all the things. And that could potentially help you. So I don't know if you do... Do you do different content for TikTok versus Instagram?
Dr. Bonnie:No. You know what I do? I mean, this is my my issue. Again, because I know so many people who are watching these... The Instagram.
Dr. Bonnie:They're following me on Instagram. I... Sometimes I will... I'll just be picky about which videos I should put on Instagram. But you know what?
Dr. Bonnie:I need to just put them all.
Helen:Get over it. Because it is so game changing. Because the videos that are doing the best on my Instagram, I would have not posted if I had been choosing them. And it's Yeah. It has...
Helen:I'm telling you, I I got like 10,000 followers more on Instagram from doing Yes. Because one of them just hit, and it was something I wouldn't have posted because it was a TikTok video. That was a TikTok tutorial or something. Right.
Dr. Bonnie:And then
Helen:it was another thing that I wouldn't have posted. So each time... So anyway, that's just a little sidetrack advice, but let's get back to the psychology so I don't get derailed. Yep. Giving you giving you social media advice when we're talking about
Dr. Bonnie:You can't help your... I know. I can't help it.
Helen:Can't help you. I'm always, like, trying to help someone. That's my... That's probably my why is helping. And so all of that pushed me past my fear because I was also very scared.
Helen:I've been behind the camera my whole career. I know you you probably know that. But for thirty years now, I'm, like, directing and I'm producing and behind the camera, and then suddenly turned the camera on myself. I everyone's funnier, everyone's prettier, everyone's smarter. There...
Helen:And so I... My first videos, I'm so meek when I was talking. I was fine to, like, do things to music and dancing. I was always confident. But the minute I had to say something, was like, and I don't even have my real voice.
Helen:I look at those and I'm like, cringe.
Dr. Bonnie:I know. Yeah.
Helen:I, you know, I pushed through and I kept going. So for me, exposures therapy is the winning thing. The more you do something, the less intimidated it becomes. A
Dr. Bonnie:100%. A 100%.
Helen:Yes. Probably of all the things, you know, of all the things that you can do is Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Totally. Let me let me say one other thing because, you you also said, oh, everyone's prettier than me. I mean, obviously, so many people have that issue. And and again, like, what I like about TikTok, it this...
Dr. Bonnie:You know, it it depends also what your algorithm algorithm is. If you're someone who's looking at, like, you know, models all day, then that's a problem. But, you know, I would suggest somehow training your algorithm not to do that and just seeing. There's so many real people on this platform.
Helen:Best. Yes. And don't we... When we'd rather watch them.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. You
Helen:know? Because it's... First of all, it makes everybody feel good about themselves because it's like, oh, we all, like, we all are different, and we all don't have to look like this quintessential perfect, like the, now the AI aging problem, there's such a problem, people are, all these peep... They think they're real, and they're AI
Dr. Bonnie:Oh my god. Those are AI videos?
Helen:Whole other psychology. That's a disaster. You know what I mean? Horrible. Crazy.
Helen:But if I wanted to tell... Because I know I had... Can think of some members that I have that are in my studio, and they are... They're good at posting videos. They know how to make content.
Helen:But when they come to speaking on camera, they can't... They don't feel like themselves. No matter how much they exposure therapy, practice, do it, or whatever, the camera goes up, and they become a different person. Yeah. Yeah.
Helen:You may have that too because you said that you... And that's why you put a script up there. Whereas here, we're talking just now. So you said something interesting, and this is gonna help us, I think, nail this, is that some people are better speaking in person, in public, on a stage even than they are on picking up a camera. Okay?
Helen:And this seems so much safer to me. Like, let's just talk here. If I had to get in a room full of people, I think I'm more intimidated. Meanwhile, I'm speaking to a million over here every time.
Dr. Bonnie:And I don't even
Helen:think twice about it. Yes. So what... So do you think there's something there, like the in person versus the on camera?
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Well, there's interest... I I... You know, I was, I recently saw this research study where they looked at people who were presenting on Zoom and some people had an audience they could see and then other people had an audience they couldn't see. And the people who had the audience they couldn't see were more anxious and more self critical afterwards.
Dr. Bonnie:And it was so funny because last night I was doing a webinar for a bunch of social workers. There were like 160 people who showed up. But it was a webinar style. So it was just me. I couldn't see them.
Dr. Bonnie:I was like, oh, God. I just read this study. I... Because you feel like you're talking to yourself, especially if it's like a long
Helen:So weird when you feel Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. But my friend was actually the host of the webinar. And she actually she was the one person you could see, and she kept her camera on for most of the time. So I I it felt so much more comfortable, to be honest, like having seeing her. So for me, actually, giving a speech is actually probably easier than than doing...
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah.
Helen:Yeah. Not not for me. I think when I... Because I think I know in my soul as a production person, editing person, that I can edit something. So I can speak very freely on the camera and know that I can edit it later.
Helen:And so I can eliminate when I'm running on a run on sentence. But meanwhile, if I'm on stage or if I'm presenting in a workshop, I don't wanna be, I can't edit out the run on sentence, so I better not use that run on sentence or something. So it's... I think I... Maybe that's just different strengths that we have.
Helen:You know? A person could have one strength versus another.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just it's just who you are. But, you know, I was thinking about what you were asking me about the person who whose personality completely changes when they're on camera. You know, one thing they could do is they could set up the camera however they're gonna do it, do all...
Dr. Bonnie:Do the whole setup, and then just practice a couple of times without turning the camera on, but standing pretend like, you know, pretending as if they're recording, like maybe something like that would help. Like, I wouldn't say not over practicing, like not, you know, not doing it, spending an hour practicing a two minute video, but maybe just practicing, you know, asking them, like, what's the barrier? Like, would, you know, would having a teleprompter, would that help you?
Helen:That would.
Dr. Bonnie:You know, I actually, in some of in my videos, I'll wear glasses and it's almost what we call them like safety objects because I almost feel I like it's don't need... I normally wear contacts, but it just actually gives me a little bit of distance and it it helps me. I mean, now normally interesting. Yeah. Normally, we encourage people to, like, cut down on their use of safety objects.
Dr. Bonnie:But, you know, again, if it's getting me to to do the video and I'm getting out what I wanna do, then I think it's worth it.
Helen:Yeah, you know what's really weird for me? This is like, I don't know what the psychology of this is, but I can record a solo podcast, and I feel like I'm just talking to a person, I have no problem. Even compared to, so my podcast, could almost be like a diary. Because then I just, and then when I'm recording a video, I'm more intentional. Like I'm like, I have to get this point across and I have to be more concise.
Helen:So how am I gonna make this more concise? So I do think about it. I'm still me saying it. Still not scripting it. I'm just like, okay, that was a really stupid way to start.
Helen:That's like way too long winded. Nobody's gonna stay for that. So then I do a different thing. So I don't really have a problem, but I will like going from one to the other. But I feel that on the podcast, I'm literally like, hi.
Helen:Here we are. And I feel like I can 100% be... If I'm looking at the levels of my content, that's when I feel that I'm the most comfortable being myself. I don't have to speak any faster. I don't have to keep an audience engaged.
Helen:I don't have to be immediately teaching something. I could just be sharing a little, like, a little anecdote in the midst, and it doesn't feel like it's gonna derail me. So possibly, there's different levels of types of recording that a person could do.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Well, I I... You know, I have to say, just to give you some feedback on your podcast, I often am very, like, I'm like, wow. Okay. I can't believe she's just sitting there talking to no one.
Helen:By myself.
Dr. Bonnie:I know. Right? Yes. But you're great. You're great.
Dr. Bonnie:I'm I'm in awe. I mean, so I have a... I co host, an anxiety podcast. And with my co host, we so she's much more of a talker than me. In the podcast, we actually were both psychologists.
Dr. Bonnie:We both have the same name. We're both named Bonnie Zucker. So we called it That's anxiety so crazy. I know. I know.
Dr. Bonnie:It's a crazy story. So we call it Anxiety Matters with Doctor. Bonnie Zucker and Doctor. Bonnie Zucker. And it's just like an amazing thing.
Dr. Bonnie:We tell our story the first time. But we've had a little bit of friction, I'd say, because she likes it when it's just the two of us. And I'm like, Oh, no, we need more guests. We need more guests. Because for me, again, I think I do still have this, like, social anxiety within me that
Helen:safer in a group, safer in numbers.
Dr. Bonnie:Exactly. Where the the... All the attention is not focused on me where I'm asking other people questions.
Helen:So Okay. So two kinds. Oh god. Two things to that. So Yeah.
Helen:And I hope I remember the second thing. But the first thing is that when I'm recording the solo podcast Mhmm. I picture that there's one person listening and somehow, I don't know why, I feel like I can have a rapport with that person. And it doesn't feel, maybe it's in, like maybe having an imagination as a kid, I... Imaginary friends type of thing.
Helen:But I always feel like there's somebody there. But when I'm... When I see people who are anxious on camera by themselves, I recommend getting with someone and doing something so that you can because a lot of my people that are learning, they're just so nervous to be on camera. But then if you were interviewing someone and you had the camera on you for a second, then them for a second, then you, it takes the onus off. It's like you're not staring yourself.
Helen:That's how I started. My first Instagram post, when I first started to get on camera, I was picking up random strangers on the street and saying, can I just ask you a couple of questions? And I was putting the camera on them, then me, then them, then me. So I was more comfortable because it wasn't all on me. It's just funny how the tables have turned.
Helen:Yes. Now I can actually handle it. Yes. But it's like pro... It's a progressive thing.
Helen:It's not like he hears... You're this today and you're that tomorrow. You have to go through these steps. You have to do a lot
Dr. Bonnie:of a lot of practice. A lot, a lot of practice. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think, again, going back to that person who's having a hard time, I also would think about maybe using the back camera So seeing you're yourself.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. Yes. Do do you feel like the videos come out that much better with the back camera? Know I've No. Been
Helen:It doesn't make a difference to me. I don't see I don't see it enough. But I do think, on... I like it when I can have a wider lens, which is why I use the back camera and I go to point five because when I'm out in the city, it's not just my face filling the screen. You can actually see around me.
Helen:Yeah. But I can... I've tell... Told people that who who stare at themselves on the screen. When they do the selfie thing and you could tell they're not looking at the camera, they're looking down.
Helen:I'm gonna turn the camera around because you really need to be looking at the camera. It's crazy. Yeah. Don't look like you're talking to your audience. Exactly.
Helen:So that's a really good tip for somebody who's nervous if they can handle having the back camera on them. If that makes them more scared or less scared, I don't know. Yeah. So many things. But let's get into now the part of like posting and the anxiety of not having the views you want and the judgment and maybe the negative comments.
Helen:Let's move into that a little bit because we started to talk about it, but I stopped you because I wanted to really get into the on camera Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. This is a great So
Helen:talk to me about that. Like, what happens in someone's nervous system when they post a video? Can you tell me psychologically? I
Dr. Bonnie:mean, it's just, you know, you're... It's just you're putting it out there in the world. It's very anxiety producing. And then I think, and I'm guilty of this, if you keep checking back, it's the checking and it's just like, wait, why am I stuck in the 200 View jail? What is going on?
Dr. Bonnie:You know, the checking, it just reinforces your anxiety. I think maybe posting and not looking at it for a while might be helpful just so that you're not so hyper fixated on those metrics. And that's... But but then also to realize that these numbers, they're kind of... I mean, look, there's some there's some videos that that pop off that are amazing.
Dr. Bonnie:Right? But then, you know, I feel like the videos that I've spent the most time on are the videos that don't do well for whatever reason. And the videos that have done the best... I mean, I had this one video that just... It was like a trend that I did, you know, speaking, you know, someone else's voice, and I just put text on screen.
Dr. Bonnie:It literally took me, like, probably, like, two minutes, the whole thing.
Helen:Two minutes, and it did the best.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. It did that.
Helen:You know? It's also... It resonate... Whatever it is, it resonated.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess the the text on screen did, but I... But then I've had videos with with that kind of speaking, and it it might... They might not do well.
Dr. Bonnie:So so I just... I think that thing is, like, first of all, do not tie your self worth into the number of views, the number of likes, and so forth because a lot of it is... There is some degree of randomness. And, again, keeping in mind, there are a million TikTok videos that are posted every day. So you might get lucky, you might not.
Dr. Bonnie:So that's the first thing. Like, just try not to get so hung up on the metrics. Remind yourself why you're doing it. Go back to the why
Helen:The why.
Dr. Bonnie:And then just keep moving forward. So that's that.
Helen:That's good. Okay. And now let's talk like negative people saying things to you. Oh
Dr. Bonnie:my goodness. Okay. So I would I would say it was funny because I recently said to someone, oh, you know, I don't really get that many negative comments. And then I posted this one video and I definitely... People were very upset about this video.
Dr. Bonnie:Was that the first
Helen:time you've gotten a bunch of negativity?
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah, you know, I had an interesting thing happen. And so I have a friend who's very critical and maybe a little envious of what I'm doing. And this person, when I... Like, actually, when I started posting on Instagram, would give me all this feedback on my videos, like, critic... Oh, my god.
Dr. Bonnie:And so I was, actually, like, my worst case scenario and in some ways coming true. Oh, But in some way, you know, it's he's like, tilt your head too much or you do this. And then I'm like, you know what? Instead... And I'm also someone who's...
Dr. Bonnie:You know, I'm very sensitive to criticism or have I'm to treat
Helen:guilty of that.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. I might. Yeah. But I... I'm so...
Dr. Bonnie:But then I, you know, I said, okay. You know what? You know, actually, maybe I am tilting my head a little bit. Like, I actually took some of it in. Yes.
Dr. Bonnie:And with... And and, like, you know, I... This doesn't have to be perfect. I'm learning. And then I did actually ask him to stop giving me...
Dr. Bonnie:He would like text me after I would... So I'm like, please, you need to stop. This is too much. This is too intense. Then, you know, then I had a I was talking about anxiety and I had someone who commented, Oh, man, she looks really anxious.
Dr. Bonnie:And at first, that really stung because here I am educating Oh, about
Helen:my God.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. And someone's like, you're, like, anxious. And I I... You know, of course, I had that knee jerk reaction of, like, oh my god. What did I do?
Dr. Bonnie:But then I looked at the video again, and I thought, know, I'm like, was I anxious when I when I recorded this? And then I realized, I'm like, I could actually see how someone might say that. And I just tried to like take it in and not get overly reactive. And and actually, this has helped me so much develop a thicker skin to... Oh, yes.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. So it's helped me grow.
Helen:It's a very healing thing. This is why I tell people, if you have any hesitancy Mhmm. You will you will have improvements in areas you didn't expect. So because I've gotta say, and this is what I wanted to talk about a bit on your podcast which I will be happy to do and talk about this again, but being a perfectionist, being a person who's a people pleaser, 100%. Mhmm.
Helen:You know, always thinking I can win someone over, and wanting my video to be the best it can be, and making sure this and that. All the things that I put the pressure on myself. And so much of that I have let go through, you know, it's almost like how much could you get poked in the arm and after a while you don't feel the poking in the arm? Yes. I have just...
Helen:Every time I do it and I'm like, okay, somebody doesn't like me, that's fine, on we go. And it's just so much easier now. So thicker skin. I'm easier on myself. I don't feel like I have to win someone over.
Helen:I don't even feel like my video... I look at sometimes I go, oh my god. I really should've just fixed my hair before I did that. But I'm like, foof post. I just try and I I so quickly resist the urge to think I have to do it over, and I just try and hit post fast so that I don't think that...
Helen:About doing it over. And this is... Has been a healing process for me. Yes. When I tell you that in my career, I would never get front in of the camera.
Helen:My casting guy used to go, you should be cast for... You should cast for this. And I'm like, the minute I would get in front of the camera, I couldn't be who I was. It was horrible. And now I just laugh at that person.
Helen:Like, who was that person that was so scared? So Yeah. It's just forcing yourself to do something then getting out of, put you, you put yourself into your discomfort zone. Forget about the comfort Go into the discomfort zone, and then you will become more comfortable at things. It's been So so being in production too, one more thing I have to say about this.
Helen:Talk about judging like tilting my head or whatever. Because I am sitting in edit rooms editing testimonial commercials and I'm like, ugh, this person says, we're dealing with that all the time. And then ugh, this person, every time, right at the end of the sentence, oh god, so annoying. So all the things that have annoyed me have, and not that they've come back to haunt me, but they have made me a better person to record because I'm learning. Yeah.
Helen:Like, I've taught myself. I'm like, okay, I don't like when that person was like, so make sure I'm not doing that. So then I've I've almost corrected things from that. And then I'll see, like you said, tilting the head. A lot of people talk with their head going.
Helen:And I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm tilting my head a lot in this video. When did I? What's that? Let me just slow that down.
Helen:So Right. I've... And so you can. It's not like you're being fake. It's like you are becoming better.
Helen:Just like I have corrected my Jersey accent through the years, and now I don't say yesterday on every video. I clearly say yesterday. I I add the r back. Things like that. You know?
Helen:Yeah. And I think we can use our on camera experience to get better at things. And just like you wanna improve at things that you're, you know, you're working on at work. I don't know.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. A hun... Yeah. I love this. Yeah.
Dr. Bonnie:I I haven't exactly fully thought this through, and I just love this idea to use social media as a a means of personal growth and to... Yeah. To identify Just
Helen:put that in such a good sentence. Use it as a means of... See, you can you can take all this crap I spew out and make it into a good psychological study because I have the I have the receipts of the proof from doing it.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes, you know it. You're walking the walk too. Yeah, but yeah, I do think it's an opportunity for growth and so many people will not go in on social media, so many people in my profession and psychology, mental health, they're just like, you know, afraid of all these things. And, you know, it's just, you gotta, if you want, if you have that why, you gotta just do it. And one other thing about the negative comments, I recently posted this article right after when I jinxed myself, even though we don't know.
Dr. Bonnie:As cognitive behavior therapists, we don't technically believe in jinx.
Helen:Yes, of course.
Dr. Bonnie:But anyway. I did. After I said, oh, I don't get a lot of negative comments. I posted an article that was critical of a Wall Street Journal article. I I posted a video about it that was critical of a Wall Street Journal article on the...
Dr. Bonnie:What are called pan... They called it panic pouches. So basically what it was, it was things that people brought with them to make them feel more comfortable in the world if they started to feel anxious, which in theory sounds good. But then I talked about it from a panic disorder perspective. So people who have these panic attacks and they're, you know, might be having a lot of them, it might be really affecting their life, they might be avoiding a lot of things.
Dr. Bonnie:And I just said, you know, if you if you have something that you need to carry with you, like water, you know, medication, sour candy or whatever, you're still kind of keeping yourself locked in the panic cycle. And so ideally, you want to become a person who doesn't have to be ruled by your panic attack. So to work on, you know, to work on doing these things without it. That that video...
Helen:That's a negative concept. Of course.
Dr. Bonnie:Well, had people who were like, you know, would you tell, someone who has an allergy... A life threatening allergy not to to carry an Oh acne
Helen:my god, so different.
Dr. Bonnie:Would you tell a mother not to bring a diaper bag? And I'm like, these people completely missed the point of the video. And so I was able to just like, okay. This was actually a good exercise because I'm like, you know what? It's okay.
Helen:And and It can be taken that way. It can
Dr. Bonnie:be actually, finally, what I've done, I've learned to do is when I get a negative comment, unless it's a horrible comment and you can actually, you know, sometimes you you get comments that are filtered and you can review them and and so forth. But but if it's a terrible comment and not not worth responding to, then you don't respond. But if some... If... But if there's some kernel of truth, it's, sometimes it's helped, it's helpful to be like, okay, I I under, you know, I I I 100% believe that if you have a life threatening allergy, you should always have your your EpiPen.
Dr. Bonnie:If you, you know, whatever. I I you validate and then you say, but you know what? This is really what I was thinking about.
Helen:Oh, that's a really smart thing. Well, that's also a good thing to think as a as a doctor and as a professional that you want to you wanna cover that base upfront almost because Yeah. You don't wanna be you want things to be misconstrued. So I can see that from that standpoint. Yeah.
Helen:I I, you know, I I in general I agree with that as a concept. But I think overall Mhmm. When you get negative comments you can choose how you're going to respond. Just like in anything in psychology and life. You can Yeah.
Helen:Somebody says something to you in real life and you can choose how you're gonna react to that in that moment. And so we have time to think about how we wanna react to it when it's social media, and that's the difference. Like you're in a moment and I'll second get, well I shoulda said this and I shoulda said that. Well the moment's gone. Unfortunately with social media, you have plenty of time to think about your response.
Helen:And these people have plenty of time to think about what the what the mean thing they're gonna say. So that time factor adds in and a and it gives us like an... It really gives us an opportunity to make a conscious decision how we wanna reply to it. And I've... There's been times where I have been so annoyed by something and I snarky something back real quick, and then I'm like, no.
Helen:Delete. I just delete it quickly. But I just... For that moment, I just... That was my initial response, but I have enough of the wherewithal to say, I really don't need that permanently out on the on the Internet, so I can delete that.
Helen:And I don't need to have to have... I don't even need to say it. You know? So I think Yeah. All of these things are so learned.
Helen:So what would you say now that you've been... How long have you been been posting? When did you first start posting?
Dr. Bonnie:It was... I think it was at the end of... Was it 2023 or '20
Helen:Okay. So it's been a couple of years.
Dr. Bonnie:It's been a few years. Yeah. Yeah.
Helen:Okay. Yeah. So now if you look back to the beginning to now Mhmm. Yeah. Give me a little, like, point of view recap of what you think you...
Helen:What... How you think you've changed. Yeah. And what do you attribute to that too psychologically so that we can give people an... And, like, that are not thinking so hard about it and they don't wanna do it or they're so worried because they're still so nervous to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Dr. Bonnie:Right. Well, so, you know, like, I guess, yeah, I'll summarize some of these points. Like, think, you know, number one, you wanna have your your reason why you're doing it. You need to have your motivation and you really need to nail it down, because that's because your motivation is and your why is going to actually inform everything. And especially when you start to get anxious that you can kind of go back to that reason.
Dr. Bonnie:So that for me, again, it morphed. It was originally to get a book deal. Then it was educating people. And now it's like, oh, I'm thinking of writing another book. I think I do need to grow my following more.
Dr. Bonnie:And I still love educating people. So now I've got two. And then exposure therapy works. Like you, the more you do it, and I think you made a good point, like sometimes I'm just like, Ugh, I don't know how my hair... I don't know, whatever.
Helen:I'm just
Dr. Bonnie:gonna post it today. Yeah. But but in... And if you if you have a barrier, like, figure out what your barriers are to posting. Like, is it...
Dr. Bonnie:You know, what is it? Is it, you know, afraid of the negative comments? Are you afraid of, like, people, you know, judging you? You don't like how you look. You...
Dr. Bonnie:You're overly perfectionistic. And you gotta, like, figure out what is it that's the barrier and then try to, like, coach yourself through it. And, you know, it's like, oh, I feel so old and dah dah dah dah. But look on TikTok, there's people of all ages, everyone. And okay, so there's that.
Dr. Bonnie:Or I don't like looking at myself. But the more you do it, I don't like the sound of my voice. The more you do it, you kind of get used to it. So I would, you know, try to figure out what's a barrier. Then I would figure out, are there ways to like...
Dr. Bonnie:Is there like a way in? Like, if you really hate looking at yourself talking, maybe you use the back camera and you're not looking at yourself. Maybe you practice a little bit. Maybe you have your loved one in the room while you're making the video. You know, maybe you use a teleprompter like me.
Helen:Whatever the things are. Okay.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. So so do lot
Helen:of people say they can't record when their husband's in the room or something like that. Yeah. They don't out of the room. And maybe that's another part of it. Like Yeah.
Helen:Get your people out of the room if that's bothering you.
Dr. Bonnie:So Exactly.
Helen:Whatever it is that's holding you back.
Dr. Bonnie:Right. And is there a time of day when you feel better and more confident and so forth? You know? Are there certain clothes? You know?
Dr. Bonnie:Just really figuring out what's gonna help you. Then after you post, you know, you have to... Again, you're doing it for the... Whatever the reason is. And if if you've if you've, like, fallen into 200 view jail with this with this with this particular video, You just have to let it go.
Dr. Bonnie:You have... You know, just don't keep going back compulsively. Right. And just... You know, and actually give yourself some...
Dr. Bonnie:Like, even if, like, nobody saw this video, you did it. Like, you did it. You put something out in the world Yeah. And maybe this video is not gonna pop off, but maybe, like, the one... Three videos from now will.
Dr. Bonnie:You know, maybe that's what the function of that video was, was to help build confidence.
Helen:And I gotta say do it do it for yourself first because that's gonna help you feel better about it. And weirdly enough, I I think it was two weeks ago, my podcast was just about how one of my least viewed platforms, LinkedIn Yeah. Is where I get the most valuable views, where I get hired for things.
Dr. Bonnie:Oh my gosh.
Helen:Yeah. So it's so interesting. I don't think views and big views are are what matters anyway. It's just the right views. So Exactly.
Helen:Really on the 200 video, you might have... In that 200 people, you might have just the right person that needed it. Exactly. That's what I always lean on, and that really helps me. Yes.
Helen:Alright. Well, this has been this has been so eye opening and and also validating because it's funny to hear you say the things and go, yeah. It is easier the more you do it. And the more you are... Do you feel you're...
Helen:That you're better at making content now than than you were in the beginning?
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. Oh, a 100%.
Helen:A 100 Yes.
Dr. Bonnie:Of course.
Helen:No one's gonna say no to that, so neither are you, whoever's listening. Yes. In a few months, you'll look back and say, wow. I'm better. But you're not gonna get better if you do nothing.
Dr. Bonnie:Oh, yeah. I have one last comment before we The wrap one thing that I found... This was actually... I totally forgot about this. I actually...
Dr. Bonnie:When I first started, I didn't know what I was doing. And I found someone who was like a coach. It not... Unfortunately, wasn't you, but it was someone else. And I did a bunch of like her...
Dr. Bonnie:She had some like free and low cost, like, you know, little webinars and so forth. And so I think, like, what you do with your studio is so important because you have that community of people, and you have you as a mentor, and then you have the whole community as, like, a support group. So finding your support.
Helen:Thank you. Finding your support group. Like... And you know what? That's what I say all the time, and yet I never do it at the right time.
Helen:So thanks for bringing that up. No. For real. Because I have always said that if you do an exercise video and you're doing it by yourself, you're gonna be more likely to improve if you go to an exercise studio and you're with other people. You're just more committed.
Helen:And so when you're doing something in a group, you're gonna make better progress. So Yeah. I'm glad to hear that you did, though, that you did that. You took something on and you were with other people, like, getting some support. So everybody join the studio.
Helen:That's what
Dr. Bonnie:I had
Helen:to say about that.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Thank you for that. I I I plugged your studio.
Helen:Oh, I appreciate you. Well, where can we find you? I'll put it all in the nose, but tell us off the cuff, like,
Dr. Bonnie:right now. Okay. So I am... I'm on TikTok I'm on TikTok and Instagram bonniezuckerphd. And then I have my podcast, which has been a lot of fun, Anxiety Matters with Doctor.
Dr. Bonnie:Bonnie Zucker and Doctor. Bonnie Zucker. And, you know, you can also go to my website, bonniezuckerphd.com. So thank you. Oh, and if you have panic attacks, if you have panic attacks, I just wrote a book on panic, freedom from panic.
Helen:Oh, amazing. That's really helpful. Do you do private consulting through your
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. I buy from private
Helen:Do you get clients from your, social?
Dr. Bonnie:I have. I've gotten... Yeah. I have. I mean, more...
Dr. Bonnie:I'm only licensed in two states. I'm licensed in California and New York. So that's, you know, that's, a barrier, but, I have gotten a few, but it hasn't been like a huge source of referrals and that's not really the main reason why I'm doing it. Often look at people who are like, I love your content. I'm like, where are you located?
Dr. Bonnie:They're like, Florida. You know? I'm like, I can't see you. So...
Helen:Yeah. It's funny because I... Of course, for me, I I never promote that I do any private consulting, but I always get I always get booked because it's in my profile. So you should always have it in there. Yes.
Helen:Anyway, because you never know who you might meet. Yeah. Well, Bonnie, thank you so much.
Dr. Bonnie:Aw. Thank you, Helen. Oh, you're
Helen:Doctor. B. You are amazing. This was so interesting because we have not spoken before about this at all. So just for the people listening, I had no idea about her background, about how she started on social, so this was really enlightening.
Helen:And I'm glad that you walked the walked as well.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah.
Helen:It's always better when you could speak from experience.
Dr. Bonnie:Yeah. Yeah. I love being on this podcast, and this was such an interesting conversation. And
Helen:And I look forward to being on yours.
Dr. Bonnie:Yes. Yes. We'll be on... We'll see... Well, so I'll see you soon.
Helen:Okay. Take care. Bye. Bye.