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S6 EP5 | The studio sends the guys back in time to rewrite a history that includes Daredevil (2003) being such a massive success that it earns a crossover with Sam Raimi's Spider-Man.
Two screenwriters attempt to recreate, reimagine, or flat out fix, existing film franchises when 'the studio' demands...MORE FILMS! It's an exercise in creative thinking where they will challenge themselves to conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film based on the stipulations of a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. | Sixfive Media
Hello and welcome to the studio demands it an exercise. I don't like how that no.
JIM:You don't?
T.C.:I didn't like how that came out. Oh. K.
JIM:Start over here. It's explosive.
T.C.:Hello and welcome to the studio demands it an exercise in creative thinking where we will conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film or series based on the demands from one of you listeners acting as
JIM:a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. Hypothetical.
T.C.:As professional screenwriters ourselves and massive cinephiles, we talk movies all the time. Movies. And we'd like to believe we can meet any demand thrown at us. We will be your screenwriters for this episode. I am TC Dwitt, and joining me as always is Jim Brawler Berzelik.
JIM:Brawler? Oh, okay.
T.C.:Which celebrity do you think you could take in a fight? Brawler. Jim Jim Brawler Brezelic. You're wearing your boxing robe today. That's what made me think of this.
T.C.:Yeah. I never realized that the brawler that's emblazoned on the back there is your middle name. I just assumed it was a nickname. Or is it an AK?
JIM:Well, I mean
T.C.:Is it an AK? Like, it's
JIM:No. No. I mean I mean, it's it's it's a given middle name.
T.C.:Oh. They they they anticipated you being scrappy.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:Okay. That's fine. Do you find having a beard that people can latch onto in a fight a disadvantage or do
JIM:It's an advantage because they latch onto it Yeah. And they think they have me and and like like, oh, I'm controlling your head. Yeah. All that happens is that stabilizes my head to where they are
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And I and and puts them within reach.
T.C.:Oh, that's that's a good strategy. I
JIM:and my first move in every fight is don't grab the beard. Don't grab the beard, man. Don't do it. And then they do it.
T.C.:A rabid there. Yeah.
JIM:Reverse psychology.
T.C.:Has that has that always been your tactic with the beard?
JIM:Every time.
T.C.:Is it show me hold on. What are showing me? What is this? Is it is this baby this is a baby picture of you? This is a this baby has a beard.
T.C.:Yeah. When did you grow this beard?
JIM:When I was a baby.
T.C.:That's what the picture would tell me there. Okay. Oh, there you go. Well, which so the answer stands though. Which celebrity currently do you think you could take in a fight?
T.C.:None. Nothing per you don't think you'd take any of them for being a brawler and having this beard strategy at hand. No, Joaquin Phoenix, don't grab my beard.
JIM:You know, he'd kick the crap out of me.
T.C.:Yeah. He'd go joker on your
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:In his saggy, big underwear.
JIM:Yeah. He'd do his dance and then
T.C.:Kick you right in the face? Yeah. My foot's not grabbing your beard. It's just kicking you.
JIM:Yeah. Yeah. They're they're all they're all trained. They they all know what they're doing. Do you think
T.C.:you could take Ian McKellen in
JIM:a fight? No. My god, no. He knows magic. Wizardry.
JIM:I'm not talking stage magic. Actually, he probably knows that too.
T.C.:He knows that too. Yeah.
JIM:And he would distract me with it.
T.C.:Do you do you think that when someone does a movie, they they gain the skill of the the character they played? Wait. Is that is that how it works?
JIM:Yeah. They they hire trainers for you know they hire trainers on movies.
T.C.:I did never Never even put two so, like, fight trainers, they also hire, like, wizards. So Ian McKellen does know magic. Yeah. Now what about a mutation? So Patrick Stewart doesn't know he doesn't have a mutation, so he can't actually, like Why not?
T.C.:He was trained to be a mutant?
JIM:Yeah. Gene gene therapy.
T.C.:Because Jean Grey. No. No. No. Oh, thought
JIM:was funny. N e.
T.C.:Gene there so that so, like, Ozempic and lip filler, they actually get mutated Yeah. On the tail. Mutant
JIM:powers. Yeah.
T.C.:Woah. Okay.
JIM:Ray Park Ray Park was green and warty for for a while. There there are certain things that they have to undo. Yeah.
T.C.:That's that's crazy.
JIM:Yeah. Imagine knowing wizardry and having magnetism Oh my god. Mutations.
T.C.:This is like the Kurt the Kirk Lazarus method method of acting. Right? That's the from drop of thunder, the Robert Downey Jr. Yeah. So it's like, he doesn't just learn it.
T.C.:He becomes it. Mhmm. Wow. Okay. So I didn't know see, know, like, some people have, like, teeth removed or, wow.
T.C.:They're really learning. So that's why you don't wanna fight any of these people. Yeah. Wait. Wait.
T.C.:Wait. What about Eddie Redmayne after he had filmed the theory of everything? I think you could take him.
JIM:Theory of every
T.C.:He he became
JIM:Oh, what dude, that that's so specific. I'd have to go beat up a guy in a wheelchair.
T.C.:Steve Hockens. He has no superpowers. He's just really smart.
JIM:No. But he had the superpowers from all the previous things he'd been in.
T.C.:So he's got Jupiter sending he's got Jupiter
JIM:sending powers. It yeah. It only becomes a problem if it if it's visible. Then movies will do things like like Oh. Take them away.
T.C.:Do what about, like, Daryl Hannah after splash? This is serious. Stop laughing.
JIM:Serious.
T.C.:She became a mermaid.
JIM:Well, that's easy. She was a replicant to begin with. Oh, you're right. They were
T.C.:that that all makes sense. So she was a robot. Yeah. Well, it's just, you know, it's just interesting. I can actually use this to segue into our episode.
T.C.:Thank you. That's great. Alright, Jim. Let's get into the episode proper. Our amazing listeners have given us demands from studios literally all over the world.
T.C.:You wanna say all
JIM:over The world. That's right.
T.C.:And listening now, you you can send us any demand you'd like, and we will have to meet them right here on the spot. And when we reach the end of the episode, if we've done our jobs, we'll have pitched a full script and story meeting or even exceeding those demands. And when the end of the season comes, your demand could have helped us craft a script that will be greenlit by the listeners and the fans for our finale. So thank you to everyone who has submitted. Please keep them coming.
T.C.:Jim, in preparation, a little bit of anticipation for the big release, we were looking at the cinematic releases, and there weren't anything that was truly jumping out at us except we we realized we could look to TV as well. And the new season of Daredevil has dropped.
JIM:It has.
T.C.:It has dropped. It is Daredevil season four, Daredevil born again. Don't let them fool you. They'll they'll call it season one, but it's not. It's season four.
T.C.:I assume. I haven't watched it yet. But in anticipation of that, we dug into the demands, and we looked for a keyword of daredevil, and this comes from Eddie. What? No.
T.C.:I I'm excited. It's Eddie. I I I closed my eyes and I reached into the demands because I didn't know.
JIM:Because we we we carve every demand
T.C.:Mhmm.
JIM:Onto a piece of cork. Yes. And we put all of those pieces of cork in a big barrel.
T.C.:Yeah. Here. I'm just gonna shake the This is this is the
JIM:That's the barrel.
T.C.:It's the barrel of and you know what? If you were a Patreon and had listened to the extended episode, you would know all about this, what that is, that what we're telling you now.
JIM:But It's the it's the cork barrel.
T.C.:It's the cork barrel.
JIM:And so then we have to dig we have to dig into the barrel of cork Uh-huh. And find the demands.
T.C.:We're super silly tonight. This is silly.
JIM:I don't know what you're talking about. It's it's it's super serious.
T.C.:Super serious.
JIM:That's exactly what we do.
T.C.:Eddie. Hello, Eddie. Thank you for sending this in. You sent this through studiodemands.com. Eddie@dressingroomstudios.
T.C.:Here we go. In 02/2003, Daredevil came and went, and all we got out of the middling movie was a killer 2000 soundtrack.
JIM:Not
T.C.:wrong. And an awful Electra movie. Also, pretty true. That's a boring ass movie. But there were plans.
T.C.:There were possibilities. If it had succeeded, we wouldn't have just gotten another daredevil. We would have gotten more. Kevin Feige has recently said that the think I know where this is going. That the ideas of a crossover universe existed as early as 02/2005.
T.C.:In fact, his ambitions laid the groundwork for not just the Avengers, but for company crossovers later in the MCU. Unfortunately, would never had seen unfortunately, would never see the light if we unfortunately, it would never, I'm assuming It would. That or it would never see the light of day until now. It is 02/2005. Daredevil was a massive success.
T.C.:Rewriting history here. We're not just rewriting history now in 02/2005. We're rewriting history two years previously. K. It's in dare sorry.
T.C.:It's 02/2005. Daredevil was a massive success. So much so, Kevin Feige's dream is now coming true a decade early. Earlier. You Mhmm.
T.C.:You've been given the keys to the kingdom. You've been given the largest budget in history. That is not what I thought it was gonna be. What do you think it's gonna be?
JIM:I think it's gonna be an MCU?
T.C.:No. This is let me finish reading it, Eddie. Sorry. I I my eyes got ahead of you. You've been given the keys to the kingdom.
T.C.:You've been given the largest budget in history at Fox sorry. And Fox and Sony are demanding a daredevil Spider Man crossover. Oh. That's the demand. Eddie, thank you for sending that in.
T.C.:I totally thought I we we might have discussed this before. This is insane. I'd so in the Fox era, there was a moment in time where daredevil, Punisher, Hulk, X Men, and Blade in the Fantastic Four, there was a notion that Kevin Feige because he was working at Fox with under Aviaraad Mhmm. Aviaraad for before he moved over to Paramount and then started developing the MCU. So there was there there were plans in place to try to cross these characters over so much so that Thomas Jane has a cameo in Spider Man two.
T.C.:He's walking through the Central Park as in all black Really? Blacked out hair as Mary Jane runs in her wedding gown back to Peter. He's just a he's just a blink and you make it miss it look back. That's amazing. Yeah.
T.C.:So I I had heard this before that Kevin Feige had talked about that this possibility of bringing these characters together. This Spider Man element, though, I I don't know if that was part of the plan, but we are now the demand here is not
JIM:It's this plan.
T.C.:It's not the Fox Avengers. Mhmm. He's this demand is for a Daredevil Spider Man crossover. 2005 is two years before Spider Man three. So Spider Man three hasn't happened yet.
T.C.:And
JIM:So this will be Spider Man three.
T.C.:This will be Spider Man three. Maybe Spider Man three can still happen after the fact. But yeah. So we're we're it's 02/2005, so we're three years after the massive success of Daredevil. Mhmm.
T.C.:And the demand is a Tobey Maguire Spider Man and Ben Affleck Daredevil crossover. I I anticipated this being Ben Affleck Daredevil related. I did not anticipate it being this. So thank you, Eddie, for that. Jim, here we go.
T.C.:What do you think? What's your what's your gut say right now?
JIM:Yes. Yes. And there it is.
T.C.:There's okay.
JIM:So we've done it. Yep. The movie the movie will have both of them.
T.C.:Yo. I think the first thing we would do though is it should be Spider Man and Daredevil. Spider Man's name should come first.
JIM:How dare you?
T.C.:Look. How dare devil? Even Warner Brothers knew that the way you sell a Batman, Superman movie is you put Batman's name first. That was the Superman going before Batman. No.
T.C.:They know Batman's their bread and butter. You put his name first. So I I I know it's a silly thing to quip over, but Spider Man and Daredevil should be the name of this movie, not Daredevil, Spider Man.
JIM:Okay. Yeah. No. That's fine.
T.C.:Okay. Good. I've I've I've gotten everything I wanted.
JIM:I want a scene where they eat hot dogs, and the movie's done.
T.C.:There's a great Spider Man scene from Straczynski's run where he eats a hot dog with Loki. Like, he's sitting on a rooftop, and he gives Loki, and Loki's like, hot dog. Straczynski's run on Spider Man is great until it's not, and that's not his fault. That is meddling from Joe Casada. Brand new date.
T.C.:Okay.
JIM:Dang studio meddling. Bring
T.C.:Gwen Stacy back. Have her have a love child with Norman Osborn. Jesus. Let's not do it
JIM:What do you think what do you think was worse?
T.C.:Oh, god.
JIM:The Mephistopheles Peter Parker rewrite?
T.C.:The Mephisto.
JIM:Mephisto rewrite? Yeah. The the the Wish granted rewrite? Mhmm. Or the Osborn, Gwen Stacy lovechild.
T.C.:That's worse. That that's worse. That is that is so I as think so. As as shitty as it was to reboot Spider Man again to get him back to unmarried Peter Parker loser, all that stuff, the disgrace of, oh, before. Let's rewrite history.
T.C.:Gwen hooked up with Norman. Gross. It's so wrong. Oh, bold move. Anyway okay.
T.C.:So daredevil, spider man, and spider man two. Those are the three movies we can play with. I don't, Fantastic Four didn't come out till 02/2005, so that's not on the oh, wait. That would've come out the same year as this. Mhmm.
T.C.:I'm just saying that in case we want to insert any other characters in this mix. Because Blade would've been out in '98. Blade two is probably out by now. Right? Blade two was '9, like,
JIM:thousand two. Not the right feel for this crossover.
T.C.:No. No. No. No. I'm I'm just if this is an all encompassing universe that we can play in, there's some other characters we could reference or bring in if we want to.
T.C.:I I don't want to add Blade into the mix. We've not not no offense to Blade, but we've we played the daywalker quite a bit recently. So Yeah. I have no desire to return to him so quickly.
JIM:You hate Blade.
T.C.:I hated Blade is what I'm trying to say. But we have the x men as well. X men was 2,000. X men two, I we've
JIM:got Strider?
T.C.:Oh, x three. When did x men three come out? And when did so x
JIM:men No.
T.C.:X men united. No. That's x two. X men three.
JIM:Hellboy came out in 02/2004.
T.C.:No. That's not you're bringing Universal into the mix here. X Men Last Name is two thousand six, so we don't have to worry about that. And Ghost Rider movie is 02/2007. So no Ghost Rider either.
T.C.:So we have Spider Man one and two and Daredevil. Like I said, three minutes ago, Jim, pay attention. Yeah. So Toby and Ben Affleck together. Villains we could utilize that would not have existed yet is Harry as the new goblin, Sandman, and Venom since they're in Spider Man three.
T.C.:We know Raimi's goal or ideal with Spider Man three was just Sandman. And then
JIM:Origin before that, he wanted Vulture. Yes. But they were like, no. We don't want a bald old man. Do something different.
T.C.:But what if I get Michael Keaton?
JIM:They they had no vision. It took twenty years.
T.C.:Great. And I don't think so we rewatched Daredevil 2,003 for for preparation of this. The commentary is going to be available Mhmm. On our Patreon if you wanna go head on over there and check it out. So we have that fresh in our heads, and I've seen Spider Man one and two dozens.
JIM:Times? How
T.C.:Probably a dozen times. Oh. It's a lot. Great. Okay.
T.C.:I've I've I've I've killed enough time in just talking right now. Is anything jumping at you of of pitches for this? Villains will obviously be key. And how do we get these two characters together? Are they gonna fight a bit and then become friends?
T.C.:Or
JIM:or I don't know.
T.C.:Kingpin seems like the obvious choice to bring these characters together. Because Kingpin started as a Spider Man villain in the I
JIM:but the movie we're coming off of is Daredevil, and Kingpin has just gone to prison. Mhmm. Should he be out of prison already? I think if you do that, you establish that that Daredevil only ever fights Kingpin.
T.C.:Right. You are right. Also, Punisher came out in 02/2004, so we can also use Tom James Punisher. Yes. Correct.
T.C.:And we in the future because 2005 right now, I'm just letting you
JIM:know Yeah.
T.C.:The future Yeah. We do see a an entire season of Daredevil where King Ping orchestrates from prison.
JIM:Television isn't isn't as good as film.
T.C.:Okay. Good. Yeah. I'm glad we agree on that in 2,005. I don't know.
T.C.:Have you seen sopranos? It's a pretty good show. It's a pretty good show. It's changing the game.
JIM:Five, did lost start yet?
T.C.:Yes. Yes. It
JIM:did. TV TV's actually on the
T.C.:on the on the up. Yeah. But, yeah, I I think you're right about bringing Kingpin in. He he seemed like the obvious choice because of the link between Spidey and Frank Miller bringing him over as daredevil's main villain, And perhaps there's a way to have him involved somehow. But no.
T.C.:The nice thing that the Raimi Spider Mans did is it wasn't a universal threat. It wasn't a world threat. It was pretty much a a grudge match threat in the in the two movies that it's
JIM:These these are street level heroes.
T.C.:Yes.
JIM:Yeah. Did despite Doc Ock making a mini son, these these are these are street level heroes.
T.C.:Yeah. So we we can we can play in the Spider Man. There's some, like
JIM:So Spider Man's realm is very much super science.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Right? He he basically fights science gone awry.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Magic isn't a thing in in Spider Man's world.
T.C.:Yeah. Like in this as far as these three movies exist, you're concerned, four, Phonetic Puncture, yeah. Magic is not in the mix here. So we don't have tossed it in.
JIM:The closest we get I don't remember if you said Ghost Rider would be it it it would basically, if we wanted to to I mean, it doesn't mean that we couldn't introduce Mhmm. Things. But if we were to crossover with something like Ghost Rider, that would introduce truly supernatural elements.
T.C.:Well, then that first Ghost Rider movie is now doesn't exist yet. So Oh, really? The Ghost Rider movie was oh, jeez. 02/2007, I think I said.
JIM:Wow. Really? Yeah. I I missed it. Sorry.
JIM:Yeah. I didn't think it was that late. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, we're not doing
T.C.:that. Right.
JIM:So the first place I go that that that I would I would that I wanted to ham fist in there, but I I wasn't it just doesn't cross over with Spider Man very well is the hand.
T.C.:Oh, sure. Yeah.
JIM:Because Ben Affleck's daredevil bypasses entirely stick and the the the secret ninja societies and all that. It's literally Matt Murdock taught himself. He he created his own version of blind Bartitsu.
T.C.:Yeah. Bringing back the Bartitsu drop.
JIM:And Hell yeah. And defeats crime with that.
T.C.:So having well, bringing in the hand and having Daredevil face his past, we could retcon that while Matt Murdock did train himself as the first movie suggested, there's a jump between him being 13 year old Matt Murdock Murdock and 30 year old Matt Murdock. There's a nice span of time in there for him to hone his abilities.
JIM:And and and that TV show that will someday exist did honestly do a really similar thing where they suggested he he pretty much taught himself. But then they're like, no. There was some ninjas.
T.C.:Yeah. No. Stick entered into the equation. Season two, he becomes
JIM:That's what I'm saying. In in season two. Right. Right. Right.
JIM:Okay. See. So
T.C.:having the hand be a threat in the city that Daredevil is becomes aware of and is now feels responsible for, then he would be facing his former master and and so on and so forth. That's a that's a good starting point. It creates us some people to punch. Getting Spider Man involved then becomes the key.
JIM:Right. So I was hoping for maybe maybe you will know of a good crossover for it. Does the hand crossover with any super scientists at any point? Because I know the hand was pretty mystic Mhmm. In in its nature.
T.C.:Like mystical ninjas. It's like their their whole thing. But they are heavily involved in, like, organized crime. They're mercenaries. They're assassins.
T.C.:They have been used in daredevil mostly, but they have made appearances in, like gosh. Like, they have made appearances in Spider Man. Like, oh, Hobgoblin. Hobgoblin's connected to the hand.
JIM:Is he?
T.C.:Oh my gosh. I I know he is. I'll go to the go to the Googles.
JIM:That's a we'd have to do we'd have to do a bun I mean, we're gonna have to do, like, work no matter what, but I feel like that's a bunch of that's a whole bunch. Like, not only is Osbourne Mhmm. Super distraught about all this stuff. He goes and he all he follows in his father's footsteps, like like, all of this instead of being the whole arc of the movie Yeah. It all ends up being Exposition.
JIM:Exposition in the beginning to get
T.C.:the movie. Seeks out the hand and becomes a super assassin and somehow
JIM:To get his revenge on
T.C.:Spider Man. And then and then the hand utilize him within New York, and and then Daredevil gets involved because now Stick has trained a villain who's taunting Spider Man with an army of ninjas.
JIM:And all of that being the the five minute exposition at the beginning of the movie. Right. If if this is the route we go actually incorporating Harry Harry getting a hold of Norman's technology and stuff and wanting to initiate his his revenge, but then finding out about the hand and wanting to learn from them. That can be incorporated, but that doesn't that isn't our inciting incident. That's not our start.
JIM:That's Yeah. That's something that happens. That's like a c plot.
T.C.:Sure. Sure. If if we choose to do that. Like
JIM:And the reason I was asking about a super scientist is because Dude,
T.C.:just realized another person who has a deep connection to handball.
JIM:Back to super scientist. Go. Talking talking you you put Spider Man first, and that that's fine. But because Spider Man is first on the bill Mhmm. This is a Spider Man movie.
T.C.:Right. Yeah.
JIM:So it's it it doesn't have to be this way. But, basically, I imagine what's what's going to have to happen is Spider Man has to be the one to come across whatever's happening first.
T.C.:Yes. Yeah.
JIM:And it will then relate to Daredevil in some way. Mhmm. There And Okay. I'm imagining after watching Spider Man one and Spider Man two Mhmm. Spider Man's out doing a patrol at night, and he suddenly has to stop ninjas from stealing DVD players or something.
JIM:Like, it's like, oh, I've stumbled into the Ninja Turtles movie plot.
T.C.:Mhmm. Okay.
JIM:Well It feel it it doesn't feel like a Spider Man movie.
T.C.:Sure. Sure.
JIM:That's why that's why I'm trying to couch it with super science. Super
T.C.:science. Yes. You are you are correct in wanting to do so. I'm trying to think as far as, like, appearances go. Right?
T.C.:So, like, the first Spider Man villain is Chameleon, not Doc Ock, not Green Goblin. Okay. Chameleon was the first one.
JIM:There were no spiders and chameleons.
T.C.:And and Vulture was number two. Okay. And then Doctor Octopus came along and then so on and so forth. I don't know. I don't think Green Goblin appeared in the first year of Spider Man.
JIM:Really? I I thought Green Goblin was the first one.
T.C.:No. I mean, it it's even by the numbers, doctor Octopus has had made more appearances as a villain for Spider Man than Green Goblin. The movie chose Green Goblin as the first movie chose Green Goblin as his as his main villain, and it created an assumption that Green Goblin is the Joker to Spider Man's the movie did that? I think so. I I I'd could be wrong, but it's my perception of it was up until the movie came out, even even that first script of Raimi's Spider Man had Doc Ock and Green Goblin in the screenplay.
T.C.:Oh, okay. Pulled Doc Ock out.
JIM:I'm okay. I I guess Doc Ock was is has always sort of been his main well, actually, I guess I guess that's what it was is reading comics Doc Hock became kind of his main antagonist.
T.C.:Yes. Yes. Green Goblin just happened to cause the biggest damage in his life by killing captain Stacy, by killing Quinn Stacy.
JIM:And being the dad of his best friend.
T.C.:Being the dad. Yeah. There's Green Goblin in for for my money, is the more compelling villain because of all that personal connection. But off topic here, super science, vulture
JIM:Well, here's here's another little tangent. So you're gonna know these dates. Sure. When did when did the first Spider Man movie come out?
T.C.:The 02/2001. 02/2002. 02/2002. Sorry.
JIM:02/2002. When did Ultimate Spider Man start?
T.C.:Oh. Ultimate Spider Man would have started around the same time, and Green Goblin is the main villain in that.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:I wanna say 02/2003.
JIM:Oh, okay. Then then it is very then it is possible that ultimate Spider Man was influenced by the movie.
T.C.:Yeah. Trying to think. I'm trying to, like, flashback in my head here to I don't know. I I could just look it up. Ultimate Sky Ultimate Spider Man number one.
T.C.:They've rebooted it recently, so everyone's like, it came out March 2024. No. That's the problem before. Yeah. But that's not here nor there.
T.C.:Super science. Vulture is a a scientist, mad scientist, made mechanical wings. Chameleon is just a master of disguise, but they all they eventually turned him into, like, a super spy who's having clandestine cloak and dagger Sure. Assassin hitman kind of stuff.
JIM:We we could twist him into being connected to the hand. Mhmm. But I know I know we like to give the MCU a lot of credit for sticking really close to the comics. Yeah. But frankly, Raimi did a pretty good job of sticking very close to the comics as well.
JIM:And so I I am reluctant to undo that by saying, we're gonna reinvent the chameleon as as a member of the hand.
T.C.:Also, Sorry Man came out in February. I was wrong. We actually have someone that Raimi was teeing up to be in his third movie, doctor Connors, the lizard.
JIM:Sure.
T.C.:He'd he had he had name dropped him in one. Mhmm. He put Dylan Baker in in number two. Mhmm. It seemed like a foregone conclusion that he would be somehow involved in three.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:We could start the movie with a cold open of him fighting lizard in the sewers, taking taking out the alligators in the sewers.
JIM:Oh, so so you just want the just as the cold open, you don't wanna connect that to whatever We could. I'm I so I I keep going back to the hand. If we don't wanna do the hand, I don't know enough daredevil villains either.
T.C.:Well, we we can come back to that. Cause you made a fair point. I said Spider Man's the bigger hero. He's the one on the marquee above Daredevil. We have to start with a Spider Man story and then figure out how that it connects to Daredevil.
T.C.:Yeah. I I think the hand is probably the way to go because it's 02/2005. I mean, Daredevil does have, like, his fair share of villains, flight smashers in there. The hand is a big one courtesy of Frank Miller. There's a there's another really big connection to the hand.
T.C.:We haven't I was gonna say it earlier, but I've been saving it. Wolverine. Wolverine is deeply involved
JIM:in that. We can't do Wolverine.
T.C.:Okay. Alright. Just just wanted to make just put it on the page, put it down on the table here. Other metaphor, just to acknowledge the fact that when Frank Miller did his run on Wolverine or, Ronan Mhmm. There was connections to the hand there.
T.C.:But that's fine. We don't have to, and we shouldn't. But to your point, we should start with Spider Man and then work our way towards it. So, like, for example, if we start the movie with beating the lizard
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:Saving doctor Connors. We reintroduce Spider Man in the midst of a fight. Heat of the action. He's saving someone, showing his heart. Like, Spider Man doesn't try to kill his villains.
T.C.:He tries to save them.
JIM:Is lizard Jekyll and Hyde situation? Does he turn into a lizard and then go back to human?
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Or is it does he go back and forth, or or is it just once he's transformed, he's the lizard?
T.C.:He goes back and forth.
JIM:He does. Okay.
T.C.:So getting him back to human, saving him. And then an alligator in the sewer fight allows us to have Foggy Nelson read a Daily Bugle headline that says, look, an alligator fight in the sewers. The yeah. Villains for Daredevil, we're looking at, like, I said Kingpin, Bullseye, and the Hand. Like, those are his three biggest villains.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:Then you have the Owl. Owsley's in the they do a good job using him in a much more realistic way in the first season of Daredevil. It's the warden from Shawshank. Purple Man is a Daredevil villain. Typhoid Mary.
T.C.:Jester, who is sort of his Joker type character. He Daredevil doesn't have the best villains. Punisher and him have certainly faced off. Mysterio and Daredevil Mysterio and Daredevil have faced off quite a bit. Not not
JIM:like weird because he's a Spider Man. That that's that and that's a Spider Man villain.
T.C.:Yeah. Hey. Daredevil doesn't have a great Rogue Scalar. He's gotta borrow from other characters. So but, like, they've Daredevil has fought more than a few villains who are typically associated with Spider Man.
T.C.:The the one of his very first enemies was Electro, Daredevil. One of Daredevil's very first enemies was Electro. So there's a character we can play with, another super scientist.
JIM:He was a super scientist? Well, wasn't Electro? I don't know six one six Electro's origin. I know him from I know his origin in the ultimate universe, and it was an it was a great rewrite of that character. They made him a mutant Yes.
JIM:In in the ultimate universe.
T.C.:I'm wrong. The the originally, it pretty much what amazing Spider Man two did. He was just a he worked for an electric company, and he turned to a life of crime, and then he was struck by lightning Okay. And got lightning powers.
JIM:And and I'm gonna wear a star mask.
T.C.:And he just has, like, a he's a he's, like, a a living capacitor for electricity, kinda like what Jamie Foxx ended up doing. But so to but back to to to Daredevil here. So Mysterio was in the Kevin Smith run. That was that was when they first launched the Marvel Knights imprints, and Kevin Smith and Joe Casada rebooted Daredevil and started what has continued to this day as one of the best friends. Mysterio makes the list because he's of, like, his villains because he's someone that David I believe he fought him because Mysterio was dying of cancer, if I'm remembering correctly.
T.C.:But it was he was sort of masterminding this villainous street crime takeover Mhmm. With his who's and what's and whatnot. So Mysterio is is up there. Now there's a concept art of Raimi's Spider Man four that has Bruce Campbell drawn as Mysterio.
JIM:Oh, really?
T.C.:Yes. That he's being unmasked in the so if you it's out there in the world, the the the ideas for Spider Man four had a cold open of Mysterio being defeated and being unmasked, and it's Bruce Campbell. At least in the concept storyboard
JIM:art. Is this is weird because we have to marry two, frankly, very different moods. Sam Raimi's Spider Man is incredibly vibrant four color sunny New York. Mhmm. And Daredevil was was was much darker.
JIM:Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:Well, that that's not to say there's
JIM:some rain in rainy.
T.C.:Well, I mean, there's a rainy nighttime scene in Spider Man.
JIM:We have but that's sexy.
T.C.:That's sexy.
JIM:That's sexy.
T.C.:And then Daredevil kicks
JIM:Daredevil was was sad. He was sad in the rain.
T.C.:Okay. We've got a lot on the table here. Who did any of those Spider Man villains jump out? I think Vulture's a good choice. Mysterio's a good choice.
T.C.:I do like my I'm pitch I pitched it the lizard cold opening just to introduce us to Spider Man mid battle. Sure.
JIM:If if it's not gonna connect to whatever plot we go with that that both of them have to team up to fight, I that's fine. Just Lizard Lizard cold open. Cool.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. Cool. I got it. I got him past the sensors.
T.C.:So yeah. So we we get Spider Man. So the the big villain science, super science okay. Like, we've had Norman Osborn just being a maniac, killing his corporate 1% people he hated and terrorizing the city. Doctor Octopus was just trying to keep his son being built.
T.C.:So
JIM:I think Mysterio might be a good a good angle. Okay. Miss Mysterio basically trying to take over street crime?
T.C.:Yes. I having to fill the vacuum left behind by Kingpin. Mhmm. Kingpin was taken off the board. And
JIM:And he because he ran the city.
T.C.:He ran the city. So now that he's gone, there's territory being fought over, and there's a mysterious king new kingpin that is slowly starting to claim all the all the territory.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:So okay. That creates a Spider Man villain doing daredevil level things. Mhmm. Is that big enough? Because you gotta think escalation as well.
T.C.:Is what would draw Spider Man's attention to this? Something something big has to happen that gets him involved here. Also, another thing is that we don't have to do the hand now if we don't want to because if it's just Mysterio running running a crime the hand. Yeah. If it's just them running a crime syndicate, then, what we what we could do is Mysterio could have a couple of, like, lieutenant type characters that have comic book connections to the hand.
T.C.:Sort of like into the Spider Verse, Kingpin and that had Tombstone as one of his guys. Mhmm. And that's just a random
JIM:That's that's true. Yeah.
T.C.:So having
JIM:Just like an enforcer kind of character? Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. So giving Mysterio Kingpin utilized bullseye. Mysterio is smart enough to use other characters with gimmicks. Yeah.
JIM:Yeah. Well, I'm I'm I'm thinking Mysterio and his enforcer is Rhino.
T.C.:Oh, yeah. Oh, I like that. Just a
JIM:Just a just a big guy in a in, like A gray hoodie. Gray outfit. Yeah.
T.C.:Like a gray hoodie.
JIM:And and maybe he does something. It it it at first, it it it's probably corny, but, like, he goes and he puts. Like like, he wears this weird horn thing.
T.C.:I'm thinking just like a monster of a man who's got a gray hoodie and and yeah. I I don't wanna turn him into a rhinoceros. We're not gonna do I don't think we have him mutate into a rhino.
JIM:So let's talk about that for a moment. Okay. Craven was not a great movie. It might be the best Spider Man list Spider Man movie that Sony has made so far. It might be.
JIM:I know the vent there are Venom fans who
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Who will scoff and hiss at us for that. Mhmm. Or or I don't know. I think as far as incarnations of the rhino, I know there were people who were very upset by it. They really just want an eight foot tall guy wearing gray spandex.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And I I just
T.C.:You can't really make that work.
JIM:Yeah. I have a really, like, I have a really hard time making that work.
T.C.:Well, nice thing is that
JIM:And and so and so then I I keep I I like the reimagining. It's turning him into somebody who has a mysterious comic book movie illness that that hardens his skin and also, for some reason, gives him horns. It was was a pretty clever way to reinvent Rhino. I think making him just a a, like, a, like, a just a big a big guy who's an enforcer for a smarter person
T.C.:Mhmm.
JIM:Is the way to go. And, like, literally, the guys have the guy be known as the rhino.
T.C.:Yeah. I like that. That he had some sort of maybe some, like, eczema skin condition, but, like, he's
JIM:it was just Maybe, like, you said put him in a in a gray hoodie. I kinda, like, start with that. Honestly, maybe that's even a a thing. Maybe he is just he's a huge guy, and he actually does wear I don't know. I don't wanna say gray spandex.
JIM:But, like, he wears Yeah. Just Well, no. Like, that's how it starts. He wears this this gray this gray hoodie and sweatpants. Mhmm.
JIM:And it's like, oh, gray like a rhino, and then he takes it off. And he's got this unitard on underneath.
T.C.:You don't put
JIM:it And he and he clips a horn on or I don't know. Something like that.
T.C.:Maybe not a horn. I don't I don't love the horn idea.
JIM:Because then he's just a hippo. He's just He's you need the horn.
T.C.:The horn or he's just a hippo? What are you, the hippo? Then he puts the horn on. It's smart ass. Like, what actually, to kinda draw some precedent from Daredevil, he could be some sort of fighter in the ring fighter that his persona was the Rhino.
T.C.:That if he Sure.
JIM:That he Oh, sure. Yeah. Touching back on on Spider Man's wrestling roots.
T.C.:And, Matt Murdock's battling Jack Murdock's boxing roots that that having some sort of get but, yeah, I think that's it. That he's the
JIM:he's the you keep you keep poo pooing the the horn.
T.C.:Yes. It's silly.
JIM:Of course, it's silly. It's a dude named the rhino.
T.C.:He cute. Okay. Go on.
JIM:I'm like, I think there's you can you can ease into it. We can we can we can make it work. Like, you start by showing the character as Mhmm. Just this this big enforcer, and you have him do things like he headbutts people. Yeah.
JIM:Right? Like Boom. Yeah. Someone he's shaking down for Mysterio.
T.C.:Oh, Wait.
JIM:He just he just headbutts them.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JIM:And so it starts like, oh, that's the thing. And it like after enough I'm not in. Mysterio gives him the gift of like, hey, I think you've earned this.
T.C.:I I I like that. Headbuttiness is like big move. Right? Like, he's a big brawling guy. We're talking, like Sure.
T.C.:Huge and he's always, like, headbutting people, and he headbutts Spider Man and fractures his skull.
JIM:Sure.
T.C.:So now he needs to have some sort of bandage.
JIM:Oh, you're saying, oh, he breaks his head on
T.C.:On Spider Man. Because Spider Man is strong as hell. And if this guy is just he's not superhuman. He just has he's just really goddamn strong. If he had it's like head butting a brick wall.
T.C.:He'd be like, bam. And then he needs to, like, get a bandage and it sort of shapes itself to look horn like.
JIM:I don't like that. I don't like making it a a a an injury.
T.C.:Okay. Then okay. This is it. We're done.
JIM:Yeah. This is the end of the This is the end of the studio demands it.
T.C.:Okay. We can split hairs
JIM:without ends here.
T.C.:This was it. That was a line I wasn't willing to cross. No. Rhino is the enforcer to Mysterio. Mysterio is so in the comics so it's the guardian devil run was the devil on God.
JIM:That's how he's doing it. Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.
JIM:I'm so sorry.
T.C.:You're excited.
JIM:I just realized. Right? Because if he's if he's taking control, he's having to go from gang to gang and be like, I'm in charge now. And they're gonna be like, the hell you are. Yeah.
JIM:And it's he's like, well, you're gonna do what I say or this guy is gonna crush you. Yeah. And right.
T.C.:So threatening him with with his rhino. But also some of his hoodoo, like his magic.
JIM:Yeah. That is what he like.
T.C.:Oh, shit. Look what this guy can do. Like, it's all smoke and mirrors. Yeah. Absolutely.
T.C.:He's going gang to gang and collecting them as lieutenants. Mhmm. He he sets himself up. So in the comics, he set himself he did try to, we've already got present. He tried to fill up the vacuum that was taken that was filled by Kingpin.
T.C.:That is what happened in the comics. Great. The issue is one like, the first issue of Daredevil starts the the Kevin Smith's run. It ends at seven or eight, and it's revealed that Mysterio was the guy doing the machinations the whole time.
JIM:Excellent. So can be Bruce Campbell.
T.C.:Perfect. Now it's gotta be someone Willem Dafoe, Alfred Molina, and then it's gotta be, I don't know, Bruce Campbell's.
JIM:Bruce Campbell can bring it. Okay.
T.C.:Bruce Campbell. In 02/2005, Bruce Campbell can get some.
JIM:Yeah. He all he's doing is burn notice at that point. I don't know if that's actually true. What if it's a helmet?
T.C.:Yes. Fine. We will still talk about Rhino. He has a helmet. You can have the helmet.
T.C.:Him a freaking horn. Bernardo's didn't start till 02/2007. Okay. So he's not doing anything but Spider Man movies at this point. Mysterio is
JIM:When did when did Lord of the Rings come out?
T.C.:02/2001, the first one, Fellowship of the Ring. Yeah.
JIM:And filmed through wait. No. So they all filmed before that. Okay. Then, yeah, he might not have been doing much.
T.C.:Is is Bruce Campbell in Lord of the Rings?
JIM:No. He has a story about how he hates Lord of the Rings because he he they were filming his they're trying to film his show, Jack of all trades Oh. And they needed one horse. And every horse in New Zealand
T.C.:In Lord of the Rings.
JIM:Was taken by Lord
T.C.:of the Rings.
JIM:And so he and so he
T.C.:hates those moves. He has a grudge against Lord of the Rings for one horse. Aw. And that's why that show was canceled?
JIM:That is the reason. That one horse. Mhmm.
T.C.:If it weren't for
JIM:my The horse reviews were, if only this show had a horse.
T.C.:Oh, poor Bruce Campbell. Alright. We we have to we're we're on on track here, but we need to stay on track here. Mysterio is filling the vacuum from Kingpin. It's been over a year now, and he he started small, and he's been working on
JIM:it. There
T.C.:needs to be a moment, something he's he's reached a a point here where he's about to make his biggest move yet, and that's what's gonna have to draw the attention of Spider Man. So he's he's started with the small gangs, he's been slowly building, building, building, building. He's about to cross a line too far. I don't know what that is. I'm gonna make a suggestion right now.
T.C.:Perhaps there's still one segment of of the city, even if it's just Hell's Kitchen, that Kingpin still has claim to. That no one everyone, He ran the city Mhmm. But that was his home territory. And, and maybe he's finally gonna make that move, and there's a a pushback from Kingpin or some other villain or that we can it just need there needs to be a big attack here, a big move by Mysterio that then, starts the ignites this whole plot. Spider Man is like, oh, I fight gangs and punch bank robbers all the time.
T.C.:Boom. A big move happens, and now it's serious. You see what I'm saying?
JIM:Sort of.
T.C.:Like, we need we need a we need an a point, something to kick this off. Right? And and so I don't know what that is. It's with Green Goblin, his appearance was killing those guys in Times Square with his vaporized bomb. Mhmm.
T.C.:And Doc Ock's appearance was his diamond heist,
JIM:his money heist. My my notion on how Spider Man gets Oh, I just thought of it. On on on track Yeah. Is it's it's sort of the the reverse of what you just suggested. You suggested starting with Spider Man, then we go to Daredevil and everything explodes.
JIM:Mhmm. And I'm I'm seeing in in my mind In your mind. I'm seeing
T.C.:Enter your mind, pal.
JIM:Let's see. I'm seeing Daredevil find some some gang operation. Like, they're they're moving they're moving a drug of some kind. Mhmm. Giggle pig.
JIM:That was that was the name of a drug in Brooklyn 99. And Daredevil jumps in to to to beat him up, and Mysterio shows up and and kind of rescues his his dudes Mhmm. And and magics everything away. Magic and and daredevil's left just spun in circles
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Because because Mysterio messed with all of his senses. Yeah. Right? So he's like, didn't know what happened, but suddenly everything is gone. Mhmm.
JIM:This weird miss mystery man Yeah. Just magicked everything away. What is that about? Cut to and and I don't know I don't know if we would see a sort of maybe a montage of of or if that's that's the first taste of Mysterio. But I'm I'm imagining Spider Man gets on this whole track when Mysterio, now having kinda done a bunch of stuff, Spider Man stops a bank robbery.
JIM:Mhmm. Rhino is knocking over a bank Mhmm. With maybe a gang in tow or something, and Spider Man goes to stop him. Rhino's running away. Spider Man is is about to take him down
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:When Mysterio does a magic thing
T.C.:Yes.
JIM:Yes. And Rhino's gone and Spider Man's like, okay. Well, I'll take care of you, fishbowl head. Yeah. And Mysterio's gone and Spider Man's left.
JIM:What what just happened? Spider Man's gonna wanna follow-up on that and that some it was I don't know. Maybe maybe the order you were saying No.
T.C.:No. No. You're right.
JIM:Would would work. But I don't know what the big one big explosive thing
T.C.:You're completely onto something here because Mysterio is a freaking showman who is doing gigantic illusions. Maybe he's been doing small time stuff up to this point. In the comics, there is someone we could draw from, which is Kingpin has a son who would have been possibly trying to take over
JIM:Princepin?
T.C.:Princepin. Yeah. He's the he's the prince. He's the prince. Actually, he's got a dumber name than that.
T.C.:Schemer. Schemer. Yeah. Yeah. It's a
JIM:I know. It's supposed to be one who schemes.
T.C.:Yeah. Schemer. But But here's the thing. This is what I'm saying. If there is one holdout in Mysterio's quest to take over New York City, and and Mysterio with his people shows up to do something about it, and they attack him guns blazing a big show of force, and Mysterio pulls out all the stops.
T.C.:And suddenly, you have a giant monsters, Kaiju attacking a building. There's this giant display happening that Spider Man, of course, is gonna wanna get involved in. Much like what we saw in Far From Home when elementals were attacking the city, that was all just a magic show. A big show of force is going to bring in the necessity of having Spider Man fight a thing.
JIM:Oh, well oh, okay. I see what you're saying. Well, what if that okay. What if that's the daytime robbery?
T.C.:Yeah. It starts if it starts as a bank robbery that then then Mysterio what you said, Mysterio shows up to save the day, and he's like, I I've been I wasn't sure when I was gonna have to do this, but I knew it was gonna have to happen sooner or later. Behold my power, and then and and hell is unleashed on poor Tobey Maguire as
JIM:I mean, what what it could what if he's not just there to save Rhino? What if, like, literally, he Mysterio shows up to rob a bank with Rhino in tow? Mhmm. And, like, it's it's literally a big show. And, like, you have SWAT like, it's it's we we come in maison scene that, like, the bank robbery is already in progress or or maybe it is more like
T.C.:Game war.
JIM:Dark dark night rises where we like, when the Joker busted into the, but basically very very quickly, we see Mysterio and Rhino and Henchman Mhmm. Enter the bank and they're taking over and Mysterio is making a huge show of it. Yeah. And he's waiting for the news and the cops and everyone Mhmm. To show up because because what you said, he he wants he's a showman.
JIM:Yeah. He wants the show. And then Spider Man shows up because it's a big Yeah. Thing.
T.C.:Here he comes to save the day.
JIM:And then all that.
T.C.:Yeah. The only thing
JIM:All all I did all I did was say, Mysterio was there the whole time. See, that's all that was you said all of that, and then I just that's the only bit I changed.
T.C.:I'm glad we're doing this. No. The only thing I would change is I don't want it to be a bank robbery. I want I think that the the big showy display of a taking out a daytime if he goes into a tower and and confronts the last holdout of the gang war, and it's like, are you gonna do? Fight me here.
T.C.:I'm in the middle of the city. I'm in broad daylight. You can't attack me. I'm safe here. And mister Yara's like, damn damn you are.
T.C.:And then the big display happens. The the only reason don't want it be bank robbery is because why he owns the city. He's running the city. What why is he showing up to a bank robbery? Kingpin would show up to a bank robbery.
JIM:Well, I was actually going to suggest this like, one of the things he says is, hello, New York. This is my debut. Yes.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Okay. I will be coming for the rest. Yeah. Next week, about this time Mhmm. The next five largest banks will be hit simultaneously.
T.C.:Oh, wow.
JIM:We'll see you then.
T.C.:Okay. You know, I don't mind that, actually. Alright. Okay. Convince me.
T.C.:Alright. We can do big bank robberies. He's he's making a show of force. He's like, hello, New York. Think the reason
JIM:the reason I wanted to be a bank robbery is because I feel like that is traditional to Spider Man comics Mhmm. And what Rhino does.
T.C.:And we had And and The only problem is that Doc Ock just robbed a bank in the last movie. It's the only reason I'm a little hesitant to repeat it.
JIM:Only only one bank robbery.
T.C.:This is five at once.
JIM:It it I get if I don't under I I I'm trying to imagine Mysterio like like, making a big show of taking over the last holdout gang feels weird to me. That that's
T.C.:Then then I wanna shift some things around then. I like the idea of Spider Man facing some of the like, building up to this moment. I think this is the big, like, act two, like, middle of the movie set piece or maybe just a little but whatever the case, having Daredevil face Mysterio first
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:And getting, like, what the hell just happened in a smaller situation. There's some gang, smaller holdout Hell's Kitchen, Mysterio shows up, a fight happens there, Daredevil intervenes, mat Mysterio magic happens, confuses him. That's the end of that. Then having the big debut to the city, broad daylight for Spider Man to face off against, that's the big Yeah. Show force, Diamond Heist, Diamond Diamond District instead of Banks, whatever.
JIM:Per perfect. Yeah. The and the reason I want something like that is, again, to me that feels more Spider Man. Like, I know, right, he has fought Kingpin. He has fought organized crime.
JIM:He's fought he he just just criminals Yeah. Like gang members. But, like, thinking about like like, in to me, Spider Man fights fight he fights the more archetypal things like robberies.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And and, like, I'll get you small, like like, four dudes who who are who are holding up a joint. He doesn't concern himself with the the politics of the street. It's not something that he so whereas Daredevil does. Daredevil's gonna know that. And that's something that when they finally meet, Spider Man Spider Man can be like, who are all these bank robbers?
JIM:And Daredevil can be like, they're not bank robbers. They're they're criminal. Like, that's just one thing they do. They run the streets, Spider Man. You know that there's lots of crimes out there.
JIM:Right?
T.C.:Daredevil Daredevil's a a policeman and Spider Man's a firefighter.
JIM:Yes. Yes. There you go. And and that's kinda so that would be how I would imagine that crossing over. So instead of being like, I'm a firefighter responding to this crime Yeah.
JIM:It would be, I'm gonna go put out this fire. Why does this fire have crime
T.C.:in it? Yeah.
JIM:And then he meets Daredevil who's like, yeah. It this crime the crime is in the fire because it's yeah. I my my metaphor is falling apart in
T.C.:my hands. Doing a great job. But, yes, Daredevil gets a Mysterio fight, the big display, the debut. I'm gonna be back here this time, my next show. Come see my next show.
T.C.:I will rob every, diamond, district in the what diamond, you know, whatever he says he's gonna do.
JIM:All the diamond districts.
T.C.:I'm gonna do it all at once. My next show will be all at once Yeah. And then fight Spider Man, and he disappears. And Spider Man's left like, what the hell was that? And now Daredevil, who's already experienced this dude, and they can meet up and have that conversation of, do you are you not paying attention?
T.C.:This is a whole criminal organization here. You can't just wait for things to pop up and then punch them. There's more to it than that.
JIM:Yeah. I I really like it, and I actually think that's our act two
T.C.:Yes.
JIM:Is Spider Man learning how to essentially investigate
T.C.:Yeah. Follow the
JIM:going with Daredevil out on patrol essentially. Like, we're gonna go hit this club. And Spider Man's like, what?
T.C.:You wanna wear black for this? Nah.
JIM:Something like that.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Once once this yeah. That's our whole act one, getting to Mysterious debut, and then Daredevil seeking out Spider Man. And now we'll come back to this.
T.C.:We need a Peter Parker, Matt Murdock plot for this as well. We're just doing we're doing big broad strokes here right now to get to the the the meat of this. Having them team up and then, like, we need to figure out who this material is. There's a history here that we need to piece all this together. We have to investigate.
T.C.:You work for a newspaper, don't you? How do you know that? Aren't you friends with a reporter? He's a photographer. He's a photographer.
JIM:Because I can because I can smell the ink on your fingers. These two
T.C.:have to reveal their identities to each other because, I don't I would especially at this time, they thought of every excuse to get these actors' masks off because that's what
JIM:they were paying
T.C.:but we'll we'll get there.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:Them working together to solve the mystery of Mysterio to prepare for his five diamond banks at the same time. Ocean's 11 reference here is the big act okay. So then the big act two, like, finale, is the day of the the heists all happening at once. And as much investigating and preparation as Daredevil and Spider Man have thinking, okay. This is how he's gonna do it.
T.C.:We can figure this out. We can work we've worked together. It's gonna be like the subway subway train the train sequence where it's like, it's not gonna go their way. They're gonna lose this.
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Because then our finale is Mysterio and Rhino versus Spider Man and Daredevil. Right? Sure. Like, that's that's what it comes down to is that punch him up, kick ass Yeah.
T.C.:Make it personal kind of thing.
JIM:I think not only does he rob all five banks Mhmm. He kidnaps the mayor.
T.C.:Oh, alright. Okay. Yeah.
JIM:And the city blames Spider Man and Daredevil.
T.C.:The devil of Hell's Kitchen. Does does Daredevil become fully public public knowledge at this point? Because he's a urban legend.
JIM:Well, he's an urban legend. Like like, he can be I think, yeah, I think he'd be seen on the scene. Mhmm. And Jay Jonah Jameson would be like Great. Another one.
JIM:Yes. Yes. Comic Comic cats. These two seem to be in cahoots with the the The Mysterio. The mystery man and his gray his gray enforcer.
T.C.:What about Mysterio? That's stupid. But this this daredevil's out there, the devil's hell devils of hell devil of hell's kitchen.
JIM:Yep. Ben Yurick's already been covering. I
T.C.:He works for the Daily News. Yeah. This is the Daily Bugle. There you go.
JIM:No one no one reads that rag. Yeah.
T.C.:Okay. We're we're breezing through act two, but, yeah, it's them working together to lead up to this the day of
JIM:because because they're trying to find out anything they can because Mysterio does a great job of covering his tracks Yeah. Which is why Spider Man was like, I don't I don't have a clue. And Daredevil's like, he's he's trying to become the new crime lord.
T.C.:Mhmm.
JIM:So we can go shake down some some random hoods.
T.C.:Right. And See, Daredevil be kinda nasty and Spider Man's like, woah. Woah. Woah. Yeah.
T.C.:Look. Are we doing good cop, bad cop? Because I can handle good cop.
JIM:Yeah. Something like that.
T.C.:We do have to remember this is Tobey Maguire's Spider Man and he is not We
JIM:can we can make him funny.
T.C.:Woah. Woah. Woah. I guess I'm the good cop. That's not fair.
T.C.:Tobey Maguire is great.
JIM:I mean, Tobey Maguire was hilarious in Bubble Boy. I don't know what you're talking
T.C.:about. Yeah. That's how he won Kristen Stewart.
JIM:Wait. That was him. Not No.
T.C.:It's Jake Gyllenhaal. Jake that and Duman. And Kirsten Duman. Oh, Duman. Kirsten Duntz is what I was prepping.
T.C.:Anyway okay. Let's let's redo it. Let's let's take we're gonna take our break now. I'm oh my god.
JIM:I thought you were being
T.C.:funny about this.
JIM:Nope. Okay.
T.C.:We're gonna take a break here. We're gonna take a quick little five. You won't have five minutes. We will have five minutes. You just have
JIM:a You'll have, like, 25.
T.C.:What? No. They're
JIM:Yeah. It's a huge it's a huge break.
T.C.:How many commercials does David put in this show?
JIM:Like, it's a it's gonna be a
T.C.:An entire another Zelda podcast episode. Okay. David, do me a favor. Don't put in that much commercial. Is that a funny bit?
T.C.:I don't know. Alright. We'll be back after this everyone. Jim's walking away. We'll just get Jake Gyllenhaal playing the stereo.
T.C.:Just to get we're just gonna get ahead of the game by like twenty years. Fifteen years?
JIM:He'd been way too young at
T.C.:the time. Yeah. He was they almost Right. When
JIM:Did he even do yeah. I think Donnie Darko had just come out.
T.C.:When Tobey Maguire was negotiating for Spider Man two Mhmm. He tried to negotiate for a percentage of the movie. Mhmm. And at the time, that was not typical. In fact, Tom Cruise was the only actor who had pulled that off, at least in
JIM:At at that time.
T.C.:Time in mainstream movies. And
JIM:so Because, the reason I Jack Nicholson did that with Batman.
T.C.:Yes. There there were there were some successful attempts to this, but it was not commonplace. Tom Cruise had pulled it off most recently, and Tobey Maguire's people were like, Tobey Maguire is Spider Man. We want a percentage. And Sony was like, cool.
T.C.:We're gonna audition some people. And they lined up Jake Gyllenhaal
JIM:Ah.
T.C.:As a negotiation tactic to get Toby to agree to his contract. So that's just the way the studio works, which we respect the studio. We are very respectful of the studio. Yeah. Okay.
T.C.:So we have Why not give your main dudes a point? He he eventually did. Tobey Maguire got a very good contract for Spider Man three. The the contracts are a whole different conversation. Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. RDJ who's like, we're all in this together. We all get paid the same.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:Here or there. Okay. So Daredevil, Spider Man, they have now they are they are meeting each other after Mysterio has made his big show of things, and there's probably a little bit of, conflict of of, style here because Dared evil likes to rough people up and and basically torture people, scare them Mhmm. Into giving out information.
JIM:He is our Batman Yeah. And Spider Man is our Superman.
T.C.:You you said the loud part soft. No. You said the quiet part.
JIM:I said said it pretty quiet.
T.C.:It's yeah. Didn't even there was no glad or quiet about it. Yes. That's that's the tactic that's happened here. And those their two methods are gonna be a little different, but this is what Daredevil does.
T.C.:He can even say it. It's like, what do you do? You fight weird lizard men in the sewers and octopus men and goblin men. Right? I've I'm out here every night.
T.C.:I'm dealing with the crime at its source. I'm not waiting for it. This is how it has to be done, and they can have, more quandaries over methods.
JIM:Sure.
T.C.:Who knows how this will ex ex affect Spider Man three. We'll discuss that later. And, yeah. So they they work together, and then they the big day of the of the five five attacks at the same time happens, and they are not as prepared as they thought they were.
JIM:It it goes wrong. Mysterio runs circles around them.
T.C.:Yeah. Just crushes him and makes him look stupid. And so this notion of him kidnapping the mayor, what's his move? Like, he's like, this is my town.
JIM:Well, my my thought is he that wasn't the plan. Mhmm. But Spider Man and Daredevil tried involving themselves and Mysterio sort of like a, oh, you think you you're gonna do this? Well, now I'm taking the mayor and I'm gonna ransom him.
T.C.:Okay. Why doesn't
JIM:he I'm gonna I'm gonna run more than just the criminal underworld.
T.C.:I'm gonna run
JIM:the whole city.
T.C.:I'm gonna run New York. This island is mine. Yeah. Now while that's a bold move and I love it, why does the army not immediately get involved? This is now a federal, a freaking mayor just got kidnapped.
T.C.:Why wouldn't the president send in the the
JIM:because it's superheroes.
T.C.:We need to I mean, he could be displaying his stuff so prominently that it's like, don't send anyone in here. I'll pull the city up.
JIM:Not not to like but like in in one of the Batmans, was wasn't the governor in danger?
T.C.:That's Tim Burton's Batman.
JIM:Yeah? That's The army didn't get involved. That's the governor.
T.C.:That's a
JIM:whole state. We are not even Post
T.C.:nine eleven America. Okay? New York is under attack. I don't dislike the idea of the mayor getting kidnapped. I just wanna create a logic to it so that it it plays.
T.C.:Right? Like, we if he if he has the governor the mayor hostage briefly, there's not enough time for the the the the big wigs to, react if this is if this all unfolds within the day. If this big attack is successful, but he also runs away with the mayor. You see what I'm saying? Like, if we put a ticking clock on it, then it is up to Spider Man and Daredevil to save the day.
T.C.:Because as soon as the army rolls in, all hell's gonna break loose. All hell's already broken loose. Well, you're the devil. You can handle hell.
JIM:That's terrible. Or
T.C.:chief of police, captain Stacy. We introduce him now. Sure. Okay.
JIM:A person of prominence.
T.C.:A permanent a person of prominence is kidnapped.
JIM:That's why I chose the mayor.
T.C.:Yeah. I didn't mean to poo poo.
JIM:No. It's okay. It's like you you invoked nine eleven and that took all the wind out
T.C.:of my senses. Oh, no. Listen. At the time of Giuliani was kidnapped, we would all be sad about it. Yeah.
T.C.:At the time.
JIM:Yeah. Yes. At the time.
T.C.:I've been kidnapped by a material guy over here.
JIM:Look out. But, like, even in Spider Man, like, when Goblin went to blow up all of those bigwigs Mhmm. Why didn't the army get involved?
T.C.:Was
JIM:somebody dropping bombs in New York?
T.C.:You're it's fair. It's fair. I I maybe I'm thinking to 2025, and I'm not thinking enough.
JIM:Where the army responds to everything? Actually, not yet.
T.C.:Not yet. Not yet.
JIM:As of this recording, not yet.
T.C.:Yeah. Not yet. Big brother's watching. Okay. I need to dial back my logic meter much like we did justice league 95.
T.C.:I need to just dial back my meter. Yes. He can kidnap the mayor.
JIM:The the chief of police is fine. That actually is a named character from the comics. Okay. So having it be Captain Stacy. Captain Stacy.
JIM:Yeah. That's that's fine.
T.C.:Okay. A a personal promise is what you're going for. And and it is a is it a matter of Mysterio saying, this city's mine. I'm not just gonna run the gangs. I'm not running the streets anymore.
T.C.:I want it all, and this is how I'm gonna pull that off. You now all answer to me or I'll kill your mayor. Something like that? Is that what's happening?
JIM:Sort of. Yeah. Okay. I don't know if he'd threatened to kill him though, or maybe he would. I don't know.
JIM:Yeah. He'd probably be or I'll off your mayor.
T.C.:Off your mayor. May maybe it's a matter of oh, here. To make them look like fools.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:Let's try this. Mysterio is a showman, and he knows how to mess with these people. He seemingly kidnaps the mayor after all the shenanigans happen the day of. Right? They they failed big explosions, rhinos tearing through them.
T.C.:Maybe get some other named villains in here briefly.
JIM:I I think I might be going too far.
T.C.:Just thugs and guns and Yeah. Kicking ass. Mysterio seemingly kidnaps the mayor, and Daredevil and Spider Man basically tear through a building to save the mayor only to get there, and the mayor is fine. He was never kidnapped. And Mysterio like, he tricks them.
T.C.:He tricks them to make them look violent and the enemies.
JIM:Okay. I'm on board with that.
T.C.:And and so when they get to the
JIM:Gets mayor the city turned on them.
T.C.:Yeah. He turns the whole city against them because he used illusion and Mhmm. He faked it all. So now they are, like, public enemies number one. Mhmm.
T.C.:So now now we can kidnap the mayor and eat it
JIM:too. Yep.
T.C.:So now there's
JIM:I guess so without the kidnapping though, we don't have a clock. We don't have a clock for the third act.
T.C.:We have a clock for them to get to the mayor, and now
JIM:Wait. So so he did he did No. No. No.
T.C.:They they assume during during our big act two explosive thing, the clock is ticking when the mayor's been kidnapped. They fail, fail, fight their way. They'll boom. Okay. But now yes.
T.C.:You're
JIM:right. And because because the other option, now that I think about it, is instead we do a whole thing where Mysterio figures out who both of them are and kidnaps Mary Jane. Karen and Mary Jane.
T.C.:Or wanna
JIM:come Foggy and and Harry Mhmm. Or all four of them. He kidnaps everyone that Spider Man and Daredevil know. Every single person.
T.C.:Yes. Yes. Aunt May is in there too. Mhmm. Robbie Robertson.
T.C.:Yep. Not all of them. No. Yet but yet okay. You're onto something there.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Making them look like like fools. They look like villains attacking the mayor when he's not in trouble.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:That kind of thing. Not only does he he make them public enemy number one for doing that, but the mayor is, like, bringing pictures of Spider Man and Daredevil. Mhmm. Once they've failed and they go into hiding and, run away, they're like, jeez, this sucks. We thought mister has kidnapped MJ and Karen and Foggy, like, kidnaps one of each of their peoples.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:I don't know if we wanna kidnap Mary Jane again. She's two for two at this point. Let's leave Mary Jane safe at this point. Aunt May was kidnapped in two, and she was attacked in one. Who does Peter have left?
JIM:Who who are you leaving alone now?
T.C.:Okay. Kidnap Harry because Harry hates Spider
JIM:Here's why here's why I was sort of resisting actually doing something like that
T.C.:Okay.
JIM:Is because we are very close to getting through this movie Yes. And leaving Spider Man three, for better or worse, completely intact.
T.C.:Completely intact. You know what? Let's leave Harry out of this.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Harry Harry can be some sort of minor thing in this movie Mhmm. But he's not the one kidnapped. Having let's say Mysterio kidnaps Karen.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Karen Foggy was a good call and and doesn't kidnap anyone from Peter's life.
JIM:Okay. So Mysterio doesn't find out who Peter is.
T.C.:Right. He just figures out who Daredevil is because, pulling from the comics, in the comics, Mysterio bought that information from Kingpin.
JIM:Oh, and in the movie, he figures it out.
T.C.:Mhmm. So we already have precedent from the comics and the first movie that Kingpin knows who Matt Murdock is. So if Mysterio has an ace up his sleeve, it's he knows who Matt Murdock that daredevil is Matt Murdock. And so that's who's kidnapped is is Karen and Foggy. And the reason this works is a good, jump off point to go to the Matt Murdock and Peter Parker story in all of this.
T.C.:Mhmm. Let's discuss Peter second. For Matt, I like the idea of him being a little forlorn after losing Elektra. Mhmm. In the director's cut, the extended cut of Daredevil, Karen has a couple extra scenes, and it's Grey's Anatomy.
T.C.:It's Ellen Pompeo. Having her be there, and she is one of the loves of Matt Murdock's life
JIM:Yeah.
T.C.:They could be starting a relationship at the beginning of this movie, that Matt is trying to move on. He he finally sees the woman who's been in front of him this whole time. Caesar. He finally smells the woman who's been in front. He opens his mouth and tastes her.
T.C.:Yeah. You know, radar radar taste. He has radar taste. Hey. Did you see what Karen's wearing today?
T.C.:No. I didn't. Oh, she she tastes good.
JIM:Echo locates beautifully.
T.C.:So Matt is trying to move on. He's trying to heal his heart. He's he's trying to date. He's putting he's gosh. We'll have to think possibly of some sort of legal plot for him as well, but go ahead.
JIM:My only here's
T.C.:I audibly drank while you think. You did. While you were thinking, sir.
JIM:While while I thanked. While you thanks? Yeah. That's What is in this water? That's the past tense past tense of think.
JIM:Everyone knows that.
T.C.:While you thanked, I was drinking water. Please continue before you lose your thought.
JIM:Oh, shit. You say you saying don't lose your thought?
T.C.:No. No. Knocked it right in. No.
JIM:No. It's he's maybe he's trying to date. There there's there's something in what you're saying, like, we show we show scenes of Karen much more sending signals.
T.C.:She's putting herself out there.
JIM:And Matt's not picking them up until basically right before
T.C.:She's getting
JIM:she gets kidnapped.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
JIM:And the so the reason for that the the reason for that that just subtle change is the I don't want to dishonor, quote unquote dishonor the first movie because the first movie sets it up that Matt believes Elektra's still alive somehow. She's still out there because left someone left behind the the, what, the hair tie?
T.C.:The the necklace? The necklace. Okay. The hair tie.
JIM:I don't know. I was gonna say tchotchke. Left behind the electric tchotchke.
T.C.:The braille the braille the braille braille tchotchke.
JIM:The braille tchotchke.
T.C.:Yeah. That's the past tense of Braile. Yeah. Okay. That's fair.
T.C.:To to not finally to finally pick up on the signals, this scene before the big And,
JIM:like, even have it be, like, cool. I'll see you at the at we we've made
T.C.:a date. The gala.
JIM:We we've made a date, and I'm gonna see you at the restaurant. And she doesn't show up.
T.C.:And that's
JIM:He knows something's wrong. Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. After they've already failed Mhmm. Their thing, he's like, well, I have a date to get to, and they and he gets there. She doesn't show up. She doesn't show up.
T.C.:Doesn't show up. And then that's when he discovers she's been kidnapped. Yeah. Spider Man, help me.
JIM:Something like that. Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. So now let's look over at Peter here. In the end of Spider Man two, he and MJ are together. She says, go get him, Tiger.
T.C.:And he she she accepts that he is Spider Man. It's such a healthy ending. She's like, I just left my husband at the altar, didn't even marry the guy, ran past the Punisher, showed up. I'm yours, baby, and they live happily ever after. I don't want them to have a relationship conflict in this movie because all three of those Raimi movies deal with their complicated relationship.
T.C.:I'd like them to be happy.
JIM:Our American culture in 2005 was not ready for there just being a healthy relationship. We are Everything had to be tumultuous.
T.C.:Will there won't be will there
JIM:won't major couple continue to have trouble.
T.C.:Had to be Rachel and Ross Mhmm. Every time. Well, I don't I'm I'm putting it out there that they don't have
JIM:It works. Like, we're not gonna be the drama this time.
T.C.:Yeah. That they're that they're they're doing that Turk and Carla thing from Scrubs where they, like, give everyone else advice on relationships because theirs work it out. The okay. Here's here's the little bit of okay. This is the drama I wanna create for Mary Jane and Peter.
JIM:K.
T.C.:Their relationship is working. She accepts that he's Spider Man.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:She even, bandages him when he comes home with, like, cuts and bruises from his fight. She's all about it. She's pregnant. She tells him that's that's her big announcement, and it freaks him out because he it it wasn't something he was prepared for. He and his fear is, what if I'm not a good father?
T.C.:Worse than that, what if I have created children that aren't that have my abilities? Like, it's so much much more responsibility here. Little spider eggs.
JIM:We're not gonna do the the comic book accurate irradiated semen story.
T.C.:Yeah. We're not doing that. We're not doing that. Okay. But giving him the fear of fatherhood in this.
T.C.:Now nope. Nope. We can't do it. Damn it. Damn it, Jim.
T.C.:Because you put it on the table that we have to leave Spider Man three unscathed Oh. We can't do it. Shit. Well, then that means they have to have a a rocky relationship here. Damn it.
T.C.:Damn you, Jim Burzalek. Because in Spider Man three, he's a he is so self absorbed and she is having trouble with her acting career that he's just so happy being Spider Man that he doesn't realize she's having a rough time. Mhmm. And she gets mad at him and he's like, I was gonna propose. And she's like, too little, too late, bucko.
T.C.:Well,
JIM:then I think then in this, we we do some of what you said. She's not all in and super happy to bandage him up because when he comes home, he's beaten to hell.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And that's scary.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And also in this one, the villains sure. At at first, they're showy and and and and comic bookie with being Rhino and Mysterio. But also, he starts fighting back alley street thugs.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And it's it's starting to get ugly. Like, it's it's a bit darker Mhmm. Than it was. It's it's it's not just
T.C.:So then swinging Yeah.
JIM:Swinging in and saving the day. Like, right here here's your bags with the dollar signs on them, police officers. I'm just happy to help. It's swinging away. It's like it's it's you're you're doing like full crime fighting stuff.
JIM:I have another idea, but it involves us taking everything, shifting it forward.
T.C.:Okay.
JIM:And then basically having Daredevil and Spider Man become enemy enemies number one a little sooner?
T.C.:Well, hold that thought. I I don't lose it. I won't. The the Mary Jane and Peter relationship, I like the idea that she is conflicted that this is a lot this is a lot. Every time you come back more and more hurt, it's harder and harder for me to to accept.
T.C.:I love you. I'm with you, but this sort of thing makes me afraid of our future together. To which Peter's like, oh, what? Like, what? You mean, like, marriage and and and and and more?
T.C.:And, like, her them having that discussion creating a little bit of tension. Like, I you're not you can't take care of yourself. What's gonna happen if we ever have children? Oh, jeez. I don't know if I want kids.
T.C.:You don't know if you want kids. This is a conversation we need to have. I we can maybe not that intense, but having some sort of little bit of those relationship questions that you ask at the beginning that could determine the longevity of it. Okay. So that's that's doesn't need to be a major plot point in this Sure.
T.C.:Because this is going to be more about the excitement of seeing these two characters work together versus these villains. So the relationship plot needs to be slightly smaller in this. That's my suggestion with that. Okay.
JIM:So So well, it it and it relate it it related to Mary Jane being concerned about Peter being out there and being in danger Yes. And identities being revealed. Like like, you becoming like, if they if they find out who you are, that's that's terrible. What about me and your aunt?
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:And and and, like like, actually because I know that's been an issue, but there hasn't been any just straight up conversations with the people who are vulnerable.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
JIM:I'm doing that, but then also doing it under the hunting eye of you you mentioned him being at the end of Spider Man two. What if and and so by speeding up the timeline of Daredevil and Spider Man becoming enemies number one Mhmm. Punisher.
T.C.:Yep. I felt I felt it coming.
JIM:Yeah. Yeah. I'd I'd telegraph that pretty
T.C.:pretty well.
JIM:I was resisting making it a big as many names as we can get in here because I normally love doing that. I was wanting to to make it simpler. Mhmm. So we don't have to do this, especially because it moves it moves the movie the timeline up in a weird way
T.C.:Yep.
JIM:To make enough room to to put Thomas Jane in here as well. Mhmm. But it's it's not the worst idea. Is that something you'd wanna do?
T.C.:I I think we let me try something. I'd like where your head's at here. We discussed Mysterio accumulating gangs. Frank Castle fights gangs. So he he would have an eye on this as well.
T.C.:So his involvement gosh. I this doesn't this doesn't work. I'm gonna say it doesn't work. I know this doesn't work. Frank being on Mysterio's side doesn't work.
T.C.:Nope. But having him already being a a plot thread going after Daredevil, not Spider Man. That he is he's he's he's chosen Daredevil as some sort of target.
JIM:Because we we just do little bits every time Daredevil finds is is investing early on. Every time he's is investing a gang, Mysterio's there
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:Gets gets away, and then Daredevil is like, where do they go? And he leaves. Mhmm. Cut to this figure who's watching, and all he sees is Daredevil show up. He doesn't see Mysterio do his thing, and then he sees Daredevil leave.
JIM:So he's chasing Daredevil thinking Daredevil is Mysterio.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. That's not bad.
JIM:That might be a little too complicated.
T.C.:It's getting complicated with so many threads. I like the idea of Frank somehow being involved with this. Let's try this. We're we might have to pull him off the table, but for now, going all the way to the end of the movie, he's been after Daredevil this entire time. And then in the climax of this, when everything's going down, he's got his sights on Daredevil and his and Daredevil I'm not the bad guy.
T.C.:Frank finally hears him and is now fighting side by side in figuratively side by side with Spider Man and Daredevil against Mysterio and Rhino and his goons. He's having a moment of the whole movie, Frank has been going after Daredevil, going after Daredevil, going after him.
JIM:I see what you're doing. I'd I want him to go after Spider Man. Frank, after Spider Man. Entirely. He's going after he's he's after Daredevil.
T.C.:Mhmm.
JIM:When Daredevil and Spider Man try to stop Mysterio and it's just the two of them, the public enemy number one, that's when Spider Man gets in Punisher's crosshairs. Mhmm. That's what ups the ante for Peter and Mary Jane.
T.C.:Is it?
JIM:Is not only these gangs, but now there's
T.C.:Freaking psychopath military Yeah. If vet out there.
JIM:Which they probably find out of it. Like like, I don't know if he takes a shot in Peter's danger sense Mhmm. Saves well, he wouldn't shoot at Mary Jane. No. But so something like that.
T.C.:No. The original appearance the first appearance of Punisher is in Spider Man.
JIM:Yeah. And that's that's a reason I want him. He can start by going after Daredevil, but the moment there's the connection to Spider Man, that's what gets Punisher going after Spider Man. So then we can do a little bit of homaging even if it's just like like five to ten minutes of Punisher going after Spider Man to that comic.
T.C.:They I I like this. In a comic book, this is perfection. But in a movie, we are risking one of the main one of the problems of Spider Man three is the too many villains situation here. I'm I'm torn. I like it.
T.C.:I like having Frank involved, but it it almost diminishes Mysterio and Rhino by having that third threat in the mix. Mhmm. I'm gonna say no. I don't do that off. I I
JIM:we Well, studios? You Yeah. What what's the Eddie was our Eddie is our
T.C.:Dressing room studios.
JIM:Exec. What's what is dressing room dressing room studios?
T.C.:What do you what do you think? Punisher should be in this. However We we
JIM:can we can take them or leave them.
T.C.:We could take them or leave them. Let's let's keep them off the table now. However, I wouldn't be against and it wasn't exactly vogue at the time, but it was something that happened from in infrequently, is having Punisher involved in some sort of post credits credit situation, setting him up as Mhmm. After after Daredevil and Spider Man have saved the city and everyone's really happy with it, having Frank that in some room going, I know what I know a villain when I see one. Some sort of just tee up for whatever would follow Spider Man three, Daredevil two.
T.C.:Maybe that yeah.
JIM:This Maybe maybe that that one I I don't I don't Yeah.
T.C.:So I I think we should take Punisher off the table, and it should just remain Mysterio and Rhino and Goons
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Versus versus Spider Man and and Daredevil. Okay. And we kidnapped a different girl this time. Mary Jane is not kidnapped. Karen is.
T.C.:Mhmm. Yeah. Okay. So so we'll we'll leave punish over here for now. Maybe we come back to it.
T.C.:But just looking at the movie we have, starts small. The the kingpin's territory has been eat gobbled up. Spider Man's out there fighting a lizard and saving the day. Alligators in the sewers. Mysterio daredevil interacts with a gang fight that Mysterio shows up at, completely throws him for a loop that maybe even ends with him getting a wallop one punch wallop from Rhino, and then they're gone in the mist.
T.C.:Character, Peter Parker, Daily Planets. O, MJ. Oh, problems. Oh, our relationship is rocky. Then the bank robbery.
T.C.:Oh, sorry. Karen dropping hints, Matt Murdock and Foggy doing lawyer stuff. Then the big day of the diamond heist, Mysterio makes his debut in grand fashion. Spider Man comes to the rescue and is walloped by I said walloped said walloped twice now.
JIM:It's okay. It's a it's a good comic book word.
T.C.:Wham, bang, zap. Mysterio does his thing. Says, my my next show gonna be my next show day, one week from now. Daredevil finds Spider Man. Mhmm.
T.C.:Says, hey. I've been doing this. They have a little, who are you? Who are you? Punch punch.
T.C.:We fight for five minutes, and then now we're friends. Let's team up. Let's solve this. Let's stop Mysterio. I work the streets.
T.C.:You work the lizard men and octopus men and goblin men and now a fishbowl head. He's definitely called him fishbowl head.
JIM:Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:They are preparing for the big day. The big day comes. It is a mess. Lots of explosions. We have to top the train sequence from two.
T.C.:Mhmm. And the mayor gets kidnapped. Daredevil and Spider Man fight their way through a building of ninjas. And then they get there and the mayor's like, what are you doing? This is my home.
T.C.:You are enemies. Yeah. They've been disgraced. They go into hiding. Well, listen, Peter.
T.C.:We need to just we'll figure this out. I have a date. Matt goes to his date. Karen doesn't show up. Uh-oh.
T.C.:She's been kidnapped. Mysterio's like, Spider Man and Daredevil now launching themselves into the third act. So now we need our biggest set piece, save Karen.
JIM:I didn't like how a couple of those things lined up, but that's okay.
T.C.:What what what did you
JIM:It feels weird that they become public enemy number one, and then Matt Murdock is like, I gotta go on a date. Well, it it it could work in a movie like like it it it has happened to heroes before. Mhmm. But hearing it shorthand like that, it it sounds it sounds out that's that part sounds out
T.C.:of He's miserable. He's sad. There's only one thing that'll make him happy. I have a date. Maybe, you know, no.
T.C.:No. No. No. It's fine. I'll fix it.
T.C.:I'll fix it.
JIM:No.
T.C.:It's No. No. I'll fix it. Peter's like, you need to go.
JIM:You're gross.
T.C.:You need to go on your date, man. I hate that dude. You need to go. Trust me. I had no relationships.
T.C.:You might not. I'm I have this beautiful girl waiting for me at home. And even though we just sucked big time today and everyone hates us, we have our ladies. So go on your date, man. I don't think this is a good idea.
T.C.:It sounds stupid when you say it out loud. Go on your date, man. Alright. I'm going. Peter, I went on
JIM:my date.
T.C.:She's been kidnapped. This is on you.
JIM:Alright. I accept.
T.C.:Yes. Okay. So now we just what's our finale here?
JIM:Finale big big punch them up.
T.C.:Finale number one is the train sequence that leads to a scoreless throwdown between Goblin and Peter.
JIM:Goblin and Peter.
T.C.:Goblin and Peter armor. Mhmm. Mhmm. Number two was the the sun collapsing in on itself.
JIM:Mhmm. Oh, I see what
T.C.:you're saying. And now three, we need it's Mysterio. Now the the we we we sort of know where to go with this because in order to defeat Mysterio, you need to realize all his flash is just smoke and mirrors, and now it's fighting this guy without all of that. Once they
JIM:So their investigation, while Mysterio did get one up on them, their their investigation should have led them to his his old special effects factor in an old an abandoned movie studio.
T.C.:The the the act two investigations could lead to a lot of questions. Like, I don't understand how he's doing this. I don't understand how he's doing this. So when Matt goes and has his, oh my god, Karen's been kidnapped moments, Peter is over here, has a little Rocky moment with MJ, and then, aunt May gives some sagely advice that has Peter go, wait. What?
JIM:Say that again.
T.C.:Say that again. And he's the one that man, I figured out how he's been doing this. It's all fake.
JIM:You were you were so close.
T.C.:Goddamn it.
JIM:It's not aunt May. Yeah. It's Mary Jane. Okay. Because she's an actor.
JIM:So Yeah. She inadvertently drops whatever clue Mhmm. About, that Peter puts it together. Yeah. I don't I don't know what it is.
T.C.:She's in some show Mhmm. Where there's some smoke and mirrors stagecraft. Yeah. And she maybe he, like, walks in the door and she does the effect while she's rehearsing it. And he's like, and she's like, Peter, Peter, it's fine.
T.C.:It's just smoke and mirrors. It's just and he's like, oh my god. That's how he's doing it.
JIM:Sure. Yeah. Something like that.
T.C.:So then when they go into the final fight, they come rushing in and Mysterio gives his big, like, welcome. I'm gonna kick your asses. And they're like Peter's like, hey. Close your eyes. He's like, no problem.
T.C.:Anyway so then they they they go into the final fight, and then it's left to Quentin Beck, Mysterio, to to fight them with, like, actual conventional things. And, Rhino, help me.
JIM:Sure.
T.C.:And then Rhino is juiced up and ready to kick some ass. And then they just grudge match through a warehouse and blow it up?
JIM:Yeah. Pretty much. Okay.
T.C.:Karen is kidnapped, so it's save Karen.
JIM:But they they save Karen. And it yeah. Yeah. Actually, that sounds pretty like like, it's it's I like the idea of it being an old Yeah. Movie
T.C.:Movie studios.
JIM:Studio. Hanger or or two or whatever.
T.C.:That's a fun fun set piece. Yeah.
JIM:But, like, the whole thing blows up and Rhino's arrested. Mhmm. Quentin Beck is is presumed dead in the explosion. Mhmm. And that leaves the question, well, is he actually dead?
JIM:Or was that a was that another special effect? Did he get away?
T.C.:Yeah. Lives to fight another day kind of thing. Oh. Oh, no. He got he gets away, Jim.
JIM:Does he?
T.C.:He gets away.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Quentin gets away. We see the smoke and mirrors of him. Like, they see him die Uh-huh. And he gets away. Which, by the way, Far From Home totally missed a beat.
T.C.:Okay. They just to go to the modern Spider Man movies, Mysterio could have faked his death so easily. That's his whole gimmick. Like, you know,
JIM:he But that's what they they did.
T.C.:No. They said he did die.
JIM:What they did is they they they yes. He did Quint Quintin Beck did die. They used it as his death itself was a trick. Yeah. Like, ah, it was Spider Man who did it and and
T.C.:I'm just saying
JIM:Mysterio is gone. There is no more Mysterio, but there is still Mysterio even though
T.C.:we we don't see him again. Back to our movie. Yep. He gets away. Karen is saved.
T.C.:Needs to be there needs to be some heroic display in this finale that the city forgives Spider Man. Because at the beginning of Spider Man three, the city loves him. Like, he is at top of his game, and the cities accept him even accept JJ. So whatever this big flashy show how it's special for.
JIM:Derp. Yeah. That was why he kidnapped the mayor because because Spider Man gets the mayor back. That's but never mind. That was a Oh, my That was an illusion.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. That's that's an x on the on the chart to be like, we need Spider Man and Daredevil, at least Spider Man to do something. So maybe maybe the in the final moments of this
JIM:I'm I'm gonna go back and and suggest not Karen. It is the mayor. Okay. And that that's why Peter Peter and and Matt have to say the mayor because it will also clear their Mhmm. Superhero names.
T.C.:Okay. Let's do the mayor and Karen.
JIM:Okay. Okay.
T.C.:Spider Man says
JIM:Hi, mister mayor. Hello, random citizen. Hello. Why
T.C.:are you here? Don't worry.
JIM:And the thing is I'll keep
T.C.:you secret.
JIM:She doesn't actually even know.
T.C.:That's true. This is how she finds out Matt is daredo.
JIM:Oh, okay.
T.C.:Whatever the case, Spider Man saves the day, and they're heroes. They they've the devils of hell the devil of Hell's Kitchen goes back to Hell's Kitchen to keep fighting crime on the streets. He saved Karen. She knows who he is. Peter returns to returns to the mayor, saves the mayor, does some heroic thing that allows him to be forgiven by the public, and he's he's a hero.
T.C.:Sure.
JIM:Yeah. But I was or I I remembered you suggest suggested cap Stacy. It can be cap Stacy. Okay.
T.C.:Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Capt Stacy Nat. Yeah.
JIM:But in either either way, a a person of authority in the city, and that that's how and not only do they need to save them because that's the right thing to do, but that also clears their name.
T.C.:Yeah. Yes. Captain Stacy being being I think still doing the whole mayor facade is is something we should do in this movie, though.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Yeah. Beginning captain Stacy and Karen whatever. Saving captain Stacy is that that would give Spider Man's like, no. He's a hero. We love Spider Man.
T.C.:He saved me. He saved the day. And
JIM:today, the devil gets a reprieve.
T.C.:I'm thinking Daredevil slinks into the shadows because he doesn't wanna be Okay. Public.
JIM:He Well okay. Okay.
T.C.:He Batmans out. Okay. And he lets Spider Man have all the credit is what I'm suggesting. He's like, no. No.
T.C.:I don't need that. You you do. The city needs you to be their the face of this of hero hero heroism in this city. You take the credit.
JIM:Okay.
T.C.:Save the save talk to captain Stacy. And, yeah, he lee he get checks in with Mary Jane. She's like, hey. We're okay. We can have our problems in the next movie.
JIM:I I think that's the the struggle they've had with this one with I'm I'm more interested in in Mary Jane being worried about him Yeah. And and worried about how to live this life of being being the the the the girlfriend of
T.C.:Spider Man.
JIM:Are they
T.C.:married at that time? No. No. They don't get married at
JIM:that Of of Spider Man, of of a of a masked vigilante. Yeah. Yeah. And when this all works out, she like like, her troubles aren't really addressed and Peter has the confidence on top of the world. He Yeah.
JIM:Took down a crime syndicate.
T.C.:And that lets him go with all that blown up ego into Spider Man three? Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that.
T.C.:Her her concern from him her her concern for him. That's a fun little thing to play with. And, Raimi homage, the original Superman movie with Spider Man one. There's a little bit of Lois Lane in superman two where she's like, every time I hear a siren, I'm just gonna be worrying about you going out there. It doesn't make sense for Spider Man.
T.C.:Or sorry. It doesn't make sense for Superman. He's Superman lady. Yeah. Like being married to a doctor.
T.C.:Like, calm down. But having having Mary Jane have those concerns are a bit more genuine because Peter does keep coming back messed up. So I like that. And so, yeah, our heroes saved the day, the city is
JIM:great. Mhmm.
T.C.:Now Quentin Beck got away. He did. Here's a little fun to have. He gets away. He's on the run.
T.C.:He's in hiding. Who better to find him than punish her?
JIM:Okay. You can have your stinger.
T.C.:Okay. You don't want it? Come on.
JIM:No. I'd I'm I'm not as I'm not as jazzed about a a stinger for for back then.
T.C.:Okay. The the number of post credit stingers was pretty small. So Yeah. It there was no I'm trying to think. Even in there was one in Daredevil.
T.C.:The the theatrical release of Daredevil, there was a bullseye stinger Yep. That show that he was alive. Yep. Are we okay with Punisher now?
JIM:You I said you can have
T.C.:it. I know, but I want you to like it. I want you to be happy about it, not relenting. It it It's okay. We don't have to do it.
JIM:So the reason I feel that way so what a stinger does Mhmm. Almost every time it's used is what it is is it's a teaser to wait for the next one.
T.C.:Sure. Oh, that's definitely a Marvel to utilize them. Oh. That's not the traditionally how they were used.
JIM:Aren't they, though?
T.C.:I'd I'd well, okay. Yes. I I I was I'm yes. You are right. They are Skeletor comes back.
T.C.:I'm thinking more Ferris Bueller where it's runs through the whole credits, he's like, it's over. Go away.
JIM:Yeah. That that's that that is an exception. Yeah. Yeah. But even even when they're little goofy things, honestly, even with with Ferris Bueller, it gets all the way it gets to them like, it's over.
JIM:Go away. Mhmm. That doesn't mean you're like, yes. Satisfied. Movie done.
JIM:Don't need don't don't need more of this.
T.C.:Right?
JIM:Like, I mean, movies horror movies have them notoriously. Oh, yeah. Per and that's purposely to
T.C.:Come back for
JIM:the next one. At the very least, plant the seed in the audience's mind that evil has not been defeated.
T.C.:Sure. Sure.
JIM:And and to to make your imagination go wild and ideally to get people to clamor for another one.
T.C.:So my suggestion of of Frank showing up is like, it's too much of a tease for something that doesn't exist. Yeah. I gotcha. Okay. That's fine.
JIM:Now granted, I know we are trying to craft and pitch stories that could be made, could have been made.
T.C.:Yeah.
JIM:But we are dealing in fantasy land and we can put it in there if
T.C.:we want. No. I like your logic. I think you're right. I well, you know what?
T.C.:We'll let the studio tell us no. So it's up to Eddie.
JIM:I think. Yes. I think we do film the the Punisher thread.
T.C.:Oh. And then it's
JIM:just a director's cut.
T.C.:It's deleted from the movie. Like, did you know Frank Castle was actually there's a whole subplot Yep. Where he's chasing Matt Murdock the whole time. There's a scene between Thomas Jane and John Favreau that was cut. Yep.
T.C.:Can you believe that? Oh, my god. We're gonna write
JIM:It's actually Punisher who cripples the rhino so that Spider Man can Spider Man can finally defeat him.
T.C.:Yeah. Did did you notice that, like, he has that that gash on his thigh or on his his calf from the back? Like, there's no explanation where that comes in the mood. It's because they cut the seam where the bullet went through it.
JIM:Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:Okay. Spider Man and Daredevil. Any any I like this is fun. This feels this feels on brand for what those three movies are. Mhmm.
T.C.:The two Spider Man movies and and the Daredevil that we do have?
JIM:We only spent a bit of time kinda talking about mood because they are very different moods. Mhmm. And this movie would kinda have to establish both and then
T.C.:Blend them.
JIM:Marry them. Blend them.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. I I think that Spider Man's tone is going to supersede Daredevil's tone. In the grand scheme of this movie, Sam Raimi's Spider Man movies are going to be more prominent in this than Daredevil.
JIM:I don't know that I agree. And it it it becomes much more Daredevil's world. Sure. And then Okay. Every every time it goes back to, like, being the Mysterio show Uh-huh.
JIM:Like like so so for the the the big moments, it's big and bright like like the Raimi movies.
T.C.:Mhmm.
JIM:But then in the third act, it the third act is where it would be a blend the most of the two. Yeah. But I think you would end up feeling a lot more like Daredevil as this scrappy fight where our heroes even gonna win here. Well yeah. And then they they they do come out on top and it ends up being a Spider Man
T.C.:victory. Yeah. Think of the Green Goblin fight at the end of that first movie though. That is
JIM:It did. That dirty. That got that's Yes.
T.C.:Nasty. So it's not and, like, the chainsaw, bonesaw scene of the the art tentacle arms coming to life in in when doctor Octopus in the is in the medical room. Well, he's very evil dead. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think Daredevil's more of Daredevil's tone bleeds into this than I think I initially
JIM:thought. Mhmm.
T.C.:And I think that's the right way to go. We do have something that they could draw inspiration from, and it's going from one of the best. The Batman animated series and the Superman animated series had a crossover back in the '9 like, '97.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:They did the world's finest episode where Batman and Superman finally shared the screen and the cartoon together. Mhmm. And Bruce Timm, granted it's a completely different company or whatnot, but Mhmm. It's it's a good reference point to go. This is how you take dark Batman and bright Superman and put them together.
T.C.:That could be something like, if we were not just studio demanded to write this Yeah. But actually develop it Mhmm. That is something I would point to to go, this is how you successfully successfully blend blend two two worlds worlds together. Together.
JIM:This guy pointed at some kids cartoon on how make a how to make a big big Hollywood movie.
T.C.:What idiot. It's a great Joker
JIM:It is. I agree. Joker Joker. Is. It is.
T.C.:It is great. Offers to kill Superman. Hey, Lex. I'll kill Superman. Like, you think you could do that?
T.C.:Yeah. I'm the Joker. It's great. Anyway, that that would be a tonal stylistic thing to point at.
JIM:Mhmm.
T.C.:But to your point, yes. I think more of Daredevil ends up in this. And, you know, it it has been a few years since I've watched Spider Man the Spider Man movies. I watched them before No Way Home came out. Mhmm.
T.C.:And right after No Way Home had come out, I went back and rewatched them. And they're they are good looking movies. And I hate to be more and more and more of a snob about this. It's because they're on film.
JIM:Like, they
T.C.:have such a more, like, tangible feel to them because they shot on real sets with, like, a lot of wire work and and some really wonky rubbery animation.
JIM:Yeah. That that, like, I I do remember only a few years out is, like, only a few years out being, like, Spider Man two is the best one of them and then going back and, like and the the falling scene. Like, oh, that is a
T.C.:My bad.
JIM:That is a ragdolly looking Spider Man.
T.C.:It was a better time.
JIM:It was. It was better time. It was.
T.C.:Alright. Well, Eddie at Dressing Room Studios, how did we do? I throw it to you now and I throw it to you listeners as well. Let us know. I I think we're gonna we're gonna end here.
T.C.:Did we meet the demand today? I think we did. I like this. This one was a lot of fun.
JIM:Oh, I forgot. We I wanted to do a little bit of casting. Oh, yeah. Goldberg is Rhino. Oh.
JIM:The the the wrestler Goldberg?
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah.
JIM:His whole thing was the spear.
T.C.:Oh, yeah. That was
JIM:his move and it it that that is exactly Rhino's move. And he he's not the the seven seven or foot or taller giant.
T.C.:He's six four.
JIM:But he's big. He's really big.
T.C.:I I when I was it's the one wrestling match I ever went to see was WCW in Milwaukee, and I saw Goldberg come out. I was like, dude is a monster. Yeah. He's six four. So, like and and in 2,005, like, that's the peak of his power.
T.C.:Yeah. He doesn't have to do much acting. He just has to tackle people.
JIM:Yep.
T.C.:To be fair though, he was pretty good. Like, as far as wrestlers go, he wasn't the he had the the the risk.
JIM:And his his move was the spear Yeah. And that is what Rhino does. Yeah.
T.C.:Well, those listening agree, disagree. Do you have any other casting? Mysterio is our big one.
JIM:Right. It it would just be a matter of trying to get a bigger person. Brock Lesnar is the has the size, but I don't think he has the acting.
T.C.:No. No. No. Then was Brock Lesnar Lesnar around in 02/2005?
JIM:I think so.
T.C.:Yeah. It's Mysterio is the key one. It's Defoe, Alfred Molina, and then who is Mysterio?
JIM:Is that right? It's it's we like, I
T.C.:Sam I think I'm sorry.
JIM:I think Jeff Goldberg. Bruce Campbell could do a Spider Man Mysterio. Mhmm. And honestly, he's probably good enough factor to to be a daredevil Mysterio as well. Yeah.
JIM:I don't wanna disparage one of my heroes.
T.C.:No. I love Bruce Campbell. I love him.
JIM:But I'm I'm I actually am not sure he could be a daredevil mystery. Like like Yeah. That kind of con the the conniving crime lord who's not just putting on the show.
T.C.:Yeah. Then he needs to be a real genuine threat. He needs to be scary. And I said Jeff Goldblum. But No.
T.C.:Shouted at in the mix of it. Well, you think about that. Okay. Those listening though, what did we miss? Do you agree?
T.C.:Do you disagree? Whatever. You can message us directly at studio demands it dot com or on Instagram. Find the post for this episode if you wanna chime in specifically about this. Instagram at studio demands it.
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T.C.:Whatever. Go ahead. Helps us get in the algorithm. You can find us on YouTube and TikTok where we post video content including material not heard here on the show, Jim.
JIM:You can come be part of the conversation on Discord. Go to our website studiodemands.com, and there is a link to the Discord at the top there. Or on Reddit, we have a subreddit r/studiodemandsit where I need to post more. But you can as well.
T.C.:That's right. You you killed just enough time so I could run and grab another glass of If you want even more, you can find us on Patreon for a couple bucks a month. You can get episodes early, commercial free, extended double length episodes, and movie commentary tracks. And people listen to me. These aren't just movie commentary tracks.
T.C.:These are full bonus episodes. The majority of our commentary tracks have an additional thirty minutes of us doing mini demands, having full conversations about the movies, and I have not been telling you an any of you about that, and that's on me. So this is me telling you now that if you head over to Patreon and look at our commentary tracks, I am going through the library of them and time stamping where our additional episodes are within those commentary tracks. So it's not just listening to us babble through movie. We also sometimes dissect them or discuss other things in the midst of that.
T.C.:So look at all that fun to be had over there if you want to join us at Patreon. Massive thank you to six five media for everything they do for us. Please check out the other six five shows. Jim, anything else? I'm gonna drink loudly while you think.
JIM:I I well, I can't remember his name. He won he won the Oscar for the artist.
T.C.:Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. He he's
JIM:the voice of Chucky. Oh, wait. No. Wormtongue.
T.C.:No. Wait. He won an Oscar for that?
JIM:Didn't he? I thought he did. Was he just nominated?
T.C.:The worm oh my god. Now I'm forgetting his name. Jesus Christ. Brad Dorff. Yes.
T.C.:Brad Dorff. Brad Dorff won an Oscar for the artist.
JIM:Didn't he? I thought he did. Or did just did that win best picture?
T.C.:Brad yeah. The artist won best picture.
JIM:Okay. That's what I'm okay.
T.C.:Dorf as As Mysterio. 02/2005. Brad Dorf, he would be, when did Return of the King come out? Return of the King. So 2001 was 02/2003 would have been Return of the King.
T.C.:So, yeah, he's he's hot. He's Chucky. Sam Raimi would love to work with him. Brad Dorff is Mysterio. Now I'm wondering if he won a freaking Oscar.
T.C.:Hey, Brad. Brad. 2005 Brad Dorff. Who who let your daughter have a cameo movie? She's, you
JIM:know Who's this? I can't remember who.
T.C.:Fiona Dorff. She's the star of the Chucky TV series.
JIM:Oh, that's awesome. Oh, I did have one other thought as I was trying to think of casting. Yeah. We could have done Vulture, and my casting for Vulture would be John Lithgow.
T.C.:Oh, my God. Yeah. That's great. 2005 John Lithgow. Yeah.
T.C.:Whoo.
JIM:Oh, man. Right on right on the heels of Dexter. Oh, I was yeah. I haven't seen it.
T.C.:You're talking about
JIM:So was thinking about third rock from the sun.
T.C.:Yeah. No. Dexter's was Dexter wait. No. Dexter didn't start till 02/2006, so he hadn't done that yet.
T.C.:So, yeah, gentleman cosmulture. Alright. Well, unless you have anything else, Jim, we're gonna wrap up here. So that is we'll be back again soon for one of you to take on one of your demands and challenge ourselves to have some fun in the woods in the IMTC.
JIM:Jim here. One of my favorite. Red hot Jim.
T.C.:Got you, Jim. Jim here.
JIM:Hot ice cold Jim.
T.C.:Pao, Jim. Yep. Jim. Yep. Yep.
T.C.:Yeah. I'll take I'll take one.
JIM:I don't know why why I'm a a ballpark