Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Shawn Anthony Robinson has an amazing and inspiring story to tell. In this episode, you’ll learn about his journey from special education to learning to read, then going on to receive bachelors, masters, and doctorate degrees. You’ll also hear about the scope and impact of his work, which he describes as the intersection of race, giftedness, and dyslexia. Finally, you’ll meet “Dr. Dyslexia Dude,” his autobiographical superhero graphic novel series.
Teaching, Reading & Learning: The Podcast elevates important contributions to the educational community, with the goal of inspiring teachers, informing practice, and celebrating people in the community who have influenced teaching and literacy to the betterment of children. The podcast features guests whose life stories are compelling and rich in ways that are instructive to us all. The podcast focuses on literacy as we know it (reading and writing) but will also connect to other “literacies” that impact children’s learning; for example, emotional, physical, and social literacies as they apply to teachers and children.
[00:00:00.670] - Speaker 1
This podcast is sponsored by Zayner Blowser. Zayner Blazer supports the Reading League's important mission and is committed to helping educators be successful teachers of reading by publishing effective science of Readingbased curricula. This includes the Superkids Reading Program and the Superkids Family of Resources for grades K Two. To discover whether the Superkids Comprehensive Program Foundational Skills Kit, and new phonemic awareness curriculum are a good fit for your literacy goals and instructional approach, visit Go Zanerblowser.com League. That's Go Zanerbloser.com. Hello everyone, and welcome to Teaching, Reading and Learning the TRL Podcast. I am Laura Stewart, your host, and it is my pleasure to welcome Dr. Sean Robinson to the podcast today. Sean Anthony Robinson has an amazing and inspiring story to share, and in this episode, you'll learn about his journey from special education to learning to read to going on to receive bachelor's, master's and PhD degrees. You'll also hear about the scope and the impact of his work, which he described as the intersection of race, giftedness, and dyslexia. And finally, you'll meet Dr. Dyslexia Dude, his autobiographical superhero graphic novel series. So as a way of introducing Dr. Robinson, I will read to you his biography.
[00:01:50.190] - Speaker 1
Sean Anthony Robinson, PhD, is a fulltime reading instructor instructor at Madison College, a Senior Research Associate in the Wisconsin Equity and Inclusion Laboratory at the University of Wisconsin Madison. He is a social entrepreneur. He is cofounder of Dr. Dyslexiadude. He is a former board member of the International Dyslexia Association, and he serves on the inaugural Advisory Council of Benetech, a nonprofit that empowers communities with software for social good. Dr. Robinson graduated from the University of Wisconsin Ashkosh with a Bachelor of Science and Human Services, a Master's in Education from DePaul University, and a PhD in Language and Literacy from Cardinal Street University. He has over 40 peer reviewed publications, and he's received several distinguished honors throughout his career. He is also a life member of Alpha By Alpha Fraternity. So I know you join me in welcoming Dr. Sean Anthony Robinson to the podcast.
[00:03:04.750] - Speaker 2
So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Robinson. It's just such a delight to have you here and an honor to speak with you today and to meet you. I just know your life experiences and what you have to share is going to be really enriching for our audience. So thank you for being here today.
[00:03:21.190] - Speaker 3
Well, thanks for having me. I appreciate you.
[00:03:23.270] - Speaker 2
So I'd like to kick it off with a question that I've been asking all of our guests recently, which is what is it saying that you live by, that you return to again and again?
[00:03:34.730] - Speaker 3
I think something as when we read to little kids the little train story about I think I can't chew, chew. I always say that in every presentation I give or keynote, everyone's like saying that, but it's really about life, right? It's really about that mentality of believing I can do it. I think I can and just always moving forward, regardless of how high the climb is going to be or how many obstacles are in front of us. It would just got to keep moving. We just got to keep leaving in ourselves and saying, I think I can't chew, chew. No training. You're the conductor. Right. Because essentially you are the conductor of your own life. Like you're the one that has the power to continue or you have the power to stop. So essentially you are driving your own train. I know it's kind of cliche. It's probably for adults saying, why are you saying you just got to keep moving and you just got to keep moving forward and just keep believing yourself?
[00:04:43.400] - Speaker 2
That's awesome. And I like what you said about you are the conductor. You are conducting your own life. Right. And that whole idea of just continuing to move forward, it seems to be, really applies to your life and what you've done. And so that's what I'd like for you to share with our listeners. Tell us about your journey, and I know you published your story from special education to doctorate in Language and Literacy, my journey. So tell us about your journey. Tell us about your life as a little boy and how you were impacted with Dyslexia. Tell us that story.
[00:05:21.410] - Speaker 3
My story is probably not any different than most kids going through the K Twelve system. I really just found myself as an outsider, not just because of my race being biracial, but people just me as African American or black, but just the fact that I couldn't read. So I had both of those really felt like I was an outsider. And even growing up in a single parent household and my mother being Caucasian, she was like, my son is going to be successful. He's going to be somebody. And even when I was younger and talking to her about some of my experiences that I can't really remember, she said the earliest memory for her was that when I was in kindergarten, going into first grade, they want to put me into self contained classes with all black boys. And she said that it resembled a prison, like the learning environment. She said there was not any real books on the tables. The kids were running around. There was barely any curtains on the windows. The teacher had their feet up on the desk. And my mom asked, well, where are the other kids implying white kids or other kids?
[00:06:36.130] - Speaker 3
Because education is a melting pot of kids of all different for nationalities. And she was like, oh, they go to another school, they go to another district. My mom was like, what? Like, My son is not going to be in this type of environment. So we moved to a different district where it was predominantly Caucasian, middle upper class, suburban Chicago, North Chicago suburbs, Wumeette, Evanston area. So as I went to Wumet, I still felt like I was the other not just because of my skin and my nationality culture, but the fact that I couldn't read and build out into my behavioral issues, I found myself getting constantly in trouble. Even in middle school, I was constantly in the principal's office getting removed. I would find ways to remove myself from class. I would pick my nose to a bleed. It didn't bleed, but I tried to do anything I could to avoid reading or learning, like anything I could do to get out, I did if it was inappropriate behavior. And so I just followed me all the way through pretty much high school, and I got to high school. It just manifest itself and got worse.
[00:07:59.390] - Speaker 3
It was like an Olympic bobsled team. My behavior just went south fast. It was just uncontrollable. I had no control of my behavior and found myself constantly getting in trouble with the law. Fighting, saying inappropriate things, cursing teachers. I had no self control. I had to love myself. And even my sophomore year, before I got sent to the alternative high school for two years, I had a coach that said to me, he called me into his office. He was like, look, everything I've done to this point has not worked. By the time you're 18 going to be in jail. Like, you just came out and just said this to me and he said, I want you to try one more thing. And I'm like, okay. At the time, I was like, Whatever. Because I want you to coach Special Olympics. I want you to be a peer mentor. I want you to be a coach. I'm like, Why are you asking me to be a coach? I can barely coach myself. Like, let's try to coach somebody else. And I've been a coach over 20 years coaching Special Olympics. Even though I was unable to read in high school and still didn't have an identity as a student, I found my place coaching Special Olympics.
[00:09:20.620] - Speaker 3
It gave me a voice, allowed me to find my leadership skills. It allowed me to really find a community where I felt accepted, regardless of my color, regardless of my academic ability. I found a place where I could flourish. And I learned so much about myself coaching Special Olympics and being a peer mentor to a lot of athletes that I had coached. And it really allowed me to find my leadership skills. And even after I got sent to the term of high school for two years, one of the things that my teachers at terrif High School worked with me on was my behavior. Most of it was not academic, was mostly behavior planned because that's everything in my IEP was behavior. I just had a lot of great teachers at my turf high school and even at the regular high school that just believed in me. Even though it wasn't academic per se, it was just allowing me to love myself, allow me to feel like I'm worth something of value, but I still couldn't read. I still couldn't spell. I was still angry. And so, going into my junior year, my high school counselor told my mother and I that I was not College material.
[00:10:40.950] - Speaker 3
She's like, Sean is not going to be pretty much anything. He's not going to make it, like, cost form, like, all the negative things that I can't do. And my mom was like, no, my son's going to be somebody. He's going to go to school. He's going to get out of my house. He's not going to be living with me. He's going to go. And so she was at a beauty salon, overheard some parents talking about a College for adult learners with dyslexia. And so she called the professor at that time, director, Dr. Robert T. Nash. And she was like, I need help. I need help. Like, no one's helping us. I need to figure out why my son can't read. And any answers. I have a lot of questions and the answer. So he was like, come on, let's meet. So my mom was shocked that he took the time to meet with us. And so we're driving from Wilmett to Oscar, Wisconsin, in the Blizzard. I'm kicking, screaming, throwing the temper tantrum like a little kid because I was immature. I was immature. That's just what it is. What it is. And I was telling my mom that I'm not going to make it.
[00:11:50.560] - Speaker 3
And I'm too slow, I'm too dumb. I'm stupid, because that's things I heard, like, that's things that people told me, teachers, kids. And so it kind of manifests itself in my mind. I'm speaking to existence. And so my mom pulled over, and she called him, and she was like, between my son throwing a temper tantrum and the snowstorm, we're just going to turn on, go home, and we're just going to cancel the meeting. And Doctor Nash was like, no. He was like, no snowstorms to stop you from getting your education. My mom gets back in the car. She takes off. We get there still Blizzard. He calls me to his office, and he pulls out. At the time, I didn't know what it was, but the Wolf cock, Johnson, some batteries subtest. And so he asked me to go through some tests. Then we get to the stunning. He was like, I want you to spell the word Kane. And I was like, okay, easy. I was like, K-A-M. That's how it sounds, right? And so he asked me to do some other spelling tests and comes back to it and pretty much says to me, you are one of the most illiterate kids I've ever met in my life.
[00:12:58.030] - Speaker 3
You are extremely dyslexic illiterate. He just came out and told me, like, it wasn't anything shy about it. He said, the system has failed you. You have been failed. Like, you really have been failed. And he said, but you know what? I see something in you. I see a gift in you. Not saying that Dyslexia is a gift, but I see something in you, and I'm going to help you, but it's going to be a lot of work. It's going to be a lot of work. So he's like, you know, I'm going to accept you to my program, but it doesn't guarantee you're accepted to the University. But he said, by the fact that I accept you, you have a higher chance of getting into the institution, to the University. And I was like, my mom's crying. I'm crying. He's crying. Everyone's crying. It's like a Crowdy party. It was a lot of the questions that my mom was looking for, he had the answers to. And so we get home, I tell a lot of my teachers, and some believe me, some didn't believe me at all. Some thought I was making it up.
[00:13:58.510] - Speaker 3
So my mom filled out all my College applications, my FAFSA form, my essay. She did it all because really, I couldn't do it. Probably my attention span probably won't let me do it either, because I was all over the place like a little pinball machine. I couldn't sit still for more than five minutes. I was on redderland, too. And so I got my acceptance letter from the University. And two weeks after I graduated, I started his summer remedial program. And I graduated high school with an elementary education level. So everything reading, word attack, mathematics, spelling, all that was at a fifth grade level and below. And so here I am, an 18 year old out of high school, elementary level. And I was scared. I was scared. I was immature still. Like, somebody
[00:15:37.170] - Speaker 3
gave me hope. He took me out of a dark place in my life. And the people that helped me, him and Dr. Kitts and Becca and Mike Flanagan, the people that he had trained before and that were people who I interacted with about my journey. He saved my life academically, because no matter how many accomplishments I had in the Academy publications, that stuff doesn't matter. That stuff is irrelevant. Like, that stuff is secondary. That's the place. People in the Academy, all things I've got to this point is because not just because of my mother and the people who I had in my life is because Dr. Nash gave me life. He gave me a purpose. Yes, I'm spiritual. I believe in higher power. It's all divine intervention. He's my angel, my Guardian Angel. But he literally taught me how to read at 18, literally, he helped me understand how to crack the code. He literally told me how to take things apart and put it together like a construction worker decode encode. He taught me everything about biological awareness, having the ability to understand onset rhymes, stress patterns, syllable types. He taught me all this stuff.
[00:17:06.620] - Speaker 3
So he made me a little linguistic scholar when I'm 18 years old, got me up on the board did old school Orton Gillingham multi century instruction. The very first word he taught me how to spell to break apart was monochromatism. What am I supposed to do with the word monochromatism? I'm 18 years old. I'm at an elementary level. But this thing was, if I can teach you how to crack a code of a multi cylinder word, you're going to able to see patterns of other words that you come across, and you're going to be aware of those. And that's the way you're going to be able to just be aware, and you're going to be able to just have it come natural to you, and it's going to be connecting. It's just going to make things easier for you. He got me on the board, and what's the first sound you hear? What's the second sound of you? What's the third sound you hear? What's the fourth? The fifth, 6th, 7th, 8th. And then he would say, let's underline each sound and blend it together, and then let's break it apart and let's say it by syllable.
[00:18:06.290] - Speaker 3
He gave me appreciation of language, and he allowed me to really understand just how to attack words and how to just appreciate a language that's so complex, has so many different rules, and it can be stressful time management, too, psychologically because you put so much energy into it. But he just taught me how to crack the code. It was very easy. It wasn't rocket science. It wasn't something that took years to master literally. Once he gave me the skill, I just grabbed it and I just ran with it. And I just kept moving. And I kept going on a little train. I kept wanting more education. And even in my undergrad degree, I had professors that failed me and said, Sean, you shouldn't be here. You're not College material. We don't think you'll be a good teacher. So they kicked me out of the education program and said, you should do something different. So I heard all that stuff. I heard it all undergrad. And so even as an undergrad, I had to take a lot of supplemental courses or media courses because I wasn't at part to the College level. I use academic support services, the reading, the math, the writing.
[00:19:28.560] - Speaker 3
I used it all. So six years I graduated. It was a long six years, but I got my degree and something that people could never take from me because I earned it. It wasn't given to me. I earned it. I earned it. And so even after that, I decided I want to get more education. I want to be able to help kids like myself who struggle academically, not just reading, but just overall with just self esteem. And so I went on and got a master's in school counseling at the Paul University. That took me five years to get a degree. And then I wasn't done yet. I said I wanted more school, more knowledge but never really wanted to learn more about Dyslexia. It was always in my mind about Dyslexia because even in my master's program undergrad, a lot of people talked about reading disabilities, learning disability, so I fit that category. So when I was reading a lot of this material, I was like, that's me. That's me. I've lived it before. So I went on and enrolled in a PhD program. And I was kind of like the outcast because most of the people in the PhD program were all teacher trained undergrad Masters.
[00:20:39.810] - Speaker 3
And I came from a different background completely. And I wasn't afraid to use the D word. A lot of my professors didn't like the D word because they came from a whole language perspective. So I found myself bumping heads with faculty members, but I didn't care. I was like, Your power doesn't intimidate me. I'm not going to be intimidated by you. I've lived this stuff. I know what students need, but also gave me a really appreciation of just reading overall. Like, things I never thought about, things that I would never think about because doctor actually really teach those to me. So it gave me a better understanding about the critical frameworks and just things that just started connecting with me. And actually I had two professors that failed me and told me to drop off the program. And I didn't drop off the program, but it hurt. Like it brought back memories from Undergrad and K Twelve system where teachers tried to put me in a box and tell me what I couldn't do. And so I retook their course and I passed. And then so after seven years, I earned my PhD. So I was in school 18 straight years after high school, literally 18 years straight.
[00:22:02.490] - Speaker 3
I'm tired and it's been a long road, but I guess I would never ask for anything different because I tell kids. It's made me who I am today. I have appreciation for failure. So when I do fail, it's nothing to me anymore. It's just part of life. And so those 18 years of just ups and downs and failures and child tribulations and emotional toll, and it made me who I am today as a husband, a father, advocate for reading, obstruction, method of health. It's made me a better person. It's given me a better appreciation of life and what not to take for granted and be thankful for all the blessings that come my way because I had to work for it. Nothing came in. It wasn't given to me. Sorry. I kind of rambled on there for a little bit. Sorry.
[00:23:01.520] - Speaker 2
First of all, your story is so compelling, and obviously it's moving. I mean, I can just feel the emotions still in your voice as you tell the story, especially of Dr. Nash and the people along the way who believed in you. Like your coach. What was your coach's name? The coach who put you in the special Olympics role.
[00:23:26.070] - Speaker 3
I had coach Carpenter.
[00:23:30.970] - Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm sorry. Thank you for lifting up those people that kind of believed in you and supported you. But the greatest story here is your story. I mean, you persisted, you continued, you did not give up. And I think that has to be such a tremendous story to share with other students who might be in the same place you are. And I'm wondering if that's really then what has driven your work? I read in your bio that you focus on the intersection of race, giftedness, and dyslexia. And I also saw that in your scholarly work, you really focus a lot on the need for African American students'voices to be central to their learning. So does that really come from this background, from what you've experienced?
[00:24:19.990] - Speaker 3
Yeah. I think all my live experiences have really been the forefront of what has motivated me, not just about race, but just kids in general. I want to be able to have kids to know that they can be successful, they can't make it because special education and some people may disagree. That's fine. It's a dumping ground for a lot of students, particularly those from lower Ses communities, underserved communities. People don't have the resources or capital, the parents that could provide lawyers to navigate them through. It's a warehouse. It's a warehouse. And then they get out and they lost. They're trying to figure out the way to navigate the world, and they're trying to figure out their place in the world, and they're trying to figure out how they can put food on the table or get a job to take care of themselves with their family. And so it's hard out there if you don't know how to read. The world doesn't care about you.
[00:25:21.850] - Speaker 2
On your website, the Doctor Dyslexiadue.com website, you have a series of blogs. And I was reading Tracey Whedon's recent blog for those that are listeners who might not know. Tracy Whedon is the President and CEO of the Nighthouse Education Center. And actually, she was a recent guest on our podcast. She wrote a really, I thought, very moving piece about the effects of poverty and illiteracy. And she quoted Frederick Douglas in saying that it's easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. And I thought that was so wise.
[00:25:59.390] - Speaker 3
There's a lot of truth to that. We need to start when they're young, right? Not even when they're in the mother's womb, like for my sons, before they even born, I was reading the sounds to them. I was like literally reading the sounds to them so they become familiar with it when they get out. And so when they're young, it's very important to have that accessibility that they're exposed to this. But we know that not every kid is exposed to this. And so they go through a system, neglects them. They get out. Then what I see at the community College, I see grown adults who are reading out of elementary level, and I can relate to them. It's work, but I love it. It's to me, it's the gospel. It's getting out there, as my Reverend says, feet to the street. It's mission work. A lot of these adults, yes, they are broken, but they've been neglected. They've been failed. And so it's now my job to try to teach them the skills that I was taught so they become independent and become whatever they want to do, they can become successful.
[00:27:18.430] - Speaker 2
At one thing you said that I want to return to. You said that when Dr. Nash finally just opened up this world to you by teaching you about how do phonemes work, how do graph Ames map to phonemes, how do we decode a word, the alphabetic code, that once you were exposed to that and you were taught that, that just opened up a whole world to you. And it just feels like that is such a missing link for many of our kids, is exposing the mystery of how language works, how the code works.
[00:27:58.470] - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's all it was. In fact, I'm not sure if this podcast is going to be audio or video, but.
[00:28:06.910] - Speaker 2
Yeah, both, actually. Yeah.
[00:28:08.380] - Speaker 3
Okay. This website dictionary. I have about ten of them in my office at home, and I use them. And that's how he taught me. It was very simple, like anything was complex. He opened up a dictionary, went to work, and we studied it. We connected the phonies with the graphenes, and we talked about syllable types and the accent and marks. That's all it was. And it just gave me a whole appreciation for language. And I became a sponge, and I just grabbed onto it. And then before Dr. Nash passed away, he actually studied this dictionary for 30 years of his life, the entire dictionary from the front to the back. And so he developed a system that's based on the dictionary. In 2017, before he passed away, he signed all his work over to me and said, it's your turn to continue my work. So I have a lot of shoes to fill, and I feel like I have a lot to learn still. But now I have taken it and I've applied it to the College. I'm at the community College, and last semester we had a pilot program very successful. Now I have three courses with twelve students in each class, adult learners, that either have a diagnosed learning disability or identified as ESL learners.
[00:29:32.050] - Speaker 3
And I love it. I wake up every day and yes.
[00:29:34.780] - Speaker 2
I wanted to ask you more about that. Well, first of all, what a great legacy that he entrusted you with. His legacy. What a wonderful tribute to you and the work that you're doing. And this is at Madison College. Right. And there's a Learning Differences Innovation Center, and you teach a word analysis course and other courses there. Yeah. Tell us more about that. And are these students are the students who are identified with Dyslexia. They come to this innovation center, everything.
[00:30:10.300] - Speaker 3
Dyslexia, Dyscalcula, Dysgraphia, probably, you name it. Majority of them, 80%, have a learning disability. It's either been diagnosed or is not diagnosed. And then the other portion are adult learners who wanted to learn English, who want to learn how to crack the code. Doctor Nash, he left me all his work from pretty much the 19th 70s until he passed away. So I have books, ancient books that are goldmine, books that a lot of people may or may not know about. And then also when I read Speech to Print by Dr. Luisa Moz, it's so parallel to Dr. Nash's work. It's just like literally a mirror to each other. I just merged them together, the concepts, and I developed a 16 week course. And I'm looking forward to this journey. I'm learning from them and I'm excited about this opportunity. Like I said, last semester when I taught it, it was more of a pilot program. It was not as organized, I have to admit, because it was brand new. So I had to learn a lot of things over the summer. But they took a pre post test. And on their post test, one of the things I wrote in the blog was even though it was modest gains, you can't say significant, but for a community College student, this is significant.
[00:31:55.020] - Speaker 3
The fact that they were able to read street signs like one student said, Dr. Robinson said, Now I can read street signs. I could look at the street sign, decode it and read it. Or I could look at the menu and read the menu. That's significant to them into a research world, that's not significant. But in the real world, the real application, that is significant. And even the students had stamina in their reading ability and confidence, too, because at the pretest, they weren't able to finish all the sub tests. And at the end, they finished all of them. So again, in researcher world, they said it might not be significant, but in the real world, the work that I do, it's significant. For these students, it's everything for them to be able to build that confidence, that stamina, that's real life. It's not a fancy world. This is the real deal that we're working with. We're saving. So I'm sorry.
[00:32:50.620] - Speaker 2
I just say that sounds amazing. Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:53.960] - Speaker 3
I'm sorry. I kind of ramble on so much because I get kind of.
[00:32:56.930] - Speaker 2
I'm just agreeing with you. This just sounds incredible. I know there's an informational video about this Learning Differences innovation center. I'm going to put that in the show notes so people can check out that video. It's basically a new program that you developed. Is that right?
[00:33:13.340] - Speaker 3
Yes, it's a new program. The community College hired me because they knew I had expertise and I tried to apply for other institutions at four institutions, and everyone said I wasn't qualified enough or I'd have enough experience. And those are all co words that we don't want to hire you black. So the community College, come on. We're going to take your expertise, we're going to utilize your strengths, and we want the knowledge you have to help our students. And it was, again, divine intervention. All these years of having to deal with people in the Academy questioning my credentials, where I went to school, where I published what's my background is. It quantitative qualitative. I don't have time for all that. I don't care about trying to please people in the Academy anymore. My job is greater than what publication then you are published in or what grant. I got like, I don't care about that stuff. And if it comes out, if I get trouble for saying this big deal. My mission life is to help kids. My mission life is to help adults learn to read. They just do the community College. That's what I'm going to do.
[00:34:24.270] - Speaker 3
You know, they've already wanting to partner with the school district to get some kids enrolled in my class in the spring, particularly high school students do enrollment. So I'm going to go where I can make a difference. And if it's not at a four year institution because of politics, then, hey, I'm okay with it. Again, I'm secure with myself. I have a beautiful wife, beautiful family, two loving boys, mythical. Health is good. I'm blessed to be able to serve. When we talk about higher education, we're talking about service, right? And this is service. This is the real deal. This is application. This is not just talking about theory. This is actually applying it. So I'm just very blessed. Some people might say I'm angry, I'm bitter. But at the end of the day, I'm very blessed to be able to get back because I'm going to die eventually. I'm going to die, and I can't take this stuff with me. So I might as well be able to give what I've learned to other people so it can make their life better as they navigate their own academic journey. I've had people in the Academy who don't look like me, email me and tell me they don't see me as equal.
[00:35:42.750] - Speaker 3
They don't see me as being a researcher because I don't fit their line of thinking or their mold or their ethnic background. So I just keep it moving and like a little training, I let my work speak for itself. I have a successful track record. I've worked in communities with Pastor Dupree when he was a pastor in Appleton, Wisconsin. He allowed me to run a similar legacy program at his Church. And I had two sections. Well, first it started with just ten adolescents. And after about the third week, parents came to him and said, hey, Pastor, can we get a class for us, for adults? Pastor came to me and said, hey, Doctor Robinson, would you mind doing a section for the parents. I said, no problem. I said, It's fine. So we had two classes going at the Church. It was the kids and then the adults right afterwards. But what happened was that it became merged together. So the kids and the adults were in the same classroom together. The kids were helping the adults. In the past, when I was sitting back, like, giving this post, because it was a learning community.
[00:37:02.120] - Speaker 3
It was people having conversations and having the ability to analyze words analytically and synthetically. And that's what distraction is. And being able to analyze and really understand so much awareness and onset and rhymes and just having the conversation, having that ability to have an awareness of words and meanings of words. And so one of the mothers that I remember had the greatest impact on me. She had a lengthy background of doing some things and getting in the legal system, and she was working on changing her life or someone's in my class, too. And the last words she said to me was, Dr. Robinson, you changed my life forever. I want to now get involved in a PTA. Like, how many parents want to get involved with PTA? I'm not really involved with PTA. I'm not involved. She really wants to get involved and have a look at the table about reading with her son. Like, she wants to go to PG and E and talk about what instruction you're using. And then unfortunately, her life was taken short by domestic violence, but she just really had an impact on me. And I also did another class at a Hispanic Church.
[00:38:23.540] - Speaker 3
Same type of impact results. I've done stuff at a Boys and Girls Club summer literacy program I developed. Same type of impact with students. I've done stuff in prisons. So I've had experiences across the board. It's only prepared me for the work that I'm doing now at the community College because the world is a melting pod. You know, there's people from all different walks of life, and I just get excited. This is my life, this is my mission. I don't need any social media groups to give me permission about the work I do or I just love what I do.
[00:39:00.050] - Speaker 2
Yeah. I think clearly you're an example and what the examples you gave here are. It's all about, like, pay it forward, right? I mean, you've been given this, and so you're going to pay it forward to someone else who's going to continue to pay it forward. Yeah, that's really terrific. I wanted to ask you about you mentioned working in prisons, and I wanted to talk a little bit about this research. In 2014, you examined the impact of a reading curriculum on the spelling and reading abilities of adult inmates across five prisons in Wisconsin. And you train 20 teachers for a 15 week intervention. And your results indicated that the students reading performance on all reading measures exceeded that a control group suggesting the efficacy of implementing pure and complete phonics. Do I have that correct?
[00:39:48.710] - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's Dr. Nash's curriculum. So Dr. Nash had a lot of work in the Wisconsin prison system, and then the director of education know about Dr. Nash's work. And so they wanted to just do kind of like a pilot sample. And this was really my first research study because I'm more of a qualitative person. So just having the ability to train some teachers on his method. And one of the teachers that had probably the best games was somebody who came from a whole language perspective, and she was open to a new approach, and she just took it and ran with it like she just excelled. So, yeah, it is accurate. There were some issues with Fidelity because some teachers that were trained decided to do their own thing and go off on their own journey, which is always an issue. And so it was just a really great experience to be able to do that with Dr. Nash. That was part of my first and last time that I had to do a training with him, and I learned a lot.
[00:41:00.540] - Speaker 2
Oh, so was he alive to see the results?
[00:41:06.290] - Speaker 3
Yes.
[00:41:06.930] - Speaker 2
Oh, good. Well, one thing I wanted to ask you about. I want you to introduce us to Dr. Dyslexiadude, these two volumes that you and your coauthor, who you call your due debt, right? Yes. And your illustrator, fabulous illustrator. Just talk to us about what is it? Your story is the hero you and what are the impacts of these books are having on young readers?
[00:41:36.590] - Speaker 3
Yeah. So the reason we wrote Doctor Dyslexia is because, let's be honest, parents are not reading peer reviewed Journal articles. I know parents picking up a themed special issue or a book and wants to read it. Right or no kidding. And so I was thinking, like, how can I make my work more accessible? And so I was talking to my wife one day. I said, we should just try to make a comic book or graphic novel don't know how it's going to do, but let's just try something different. Let's be unique. And so we just took basically things out of my dissertation, and we wrote it in one, and it took off. And we're like, wait, so we wrote Router Two that took off, too. We had no idea if it was going to take off the way it has. In fact, volume one, we have sold just under 7000 copies, and our goal is to sell 10,000 copies. And once we hit 10,000 copies, once we sell 10,000 copies, 20% of our profit is going into the International District Association because my wife and I want to start a scholarship for families to receive tutoring service or something that will help with accessibility in terms of covering the cost.
[00:42:59.110] - Speaker 3
And the book has an impact. We get emails all the time from teachers, parents, kids respecting us for writing something that's culturally responsive, that has a character of color in it to give the kids hope. It's amazing what type of impact it's having on kids. I've been to Jamaica presenting on It Canada. I've been to symposiums, opening up symposiums, that reading symposium at MIT a couple of years ago. And my costume. I just think it's a different way of looking at reading. Particularly, we know that comics and graphic novels are a way to engage students and hook them reading that's what we want to do is hook them. We have volume three coming out October.
[00:43:50.550] - Speaker 2
Oh, fantastic.
[00:43:54.330] - Speaker 3
We've added three new characters to it, and it's going to be a decodable text theme that's culturally responsive, authentic and realistic. We had Doctor Maryanne Wolf trying to do like a beta reader for us before we sent it out to get illustrated, and we got some great feedback from her. We're just going to keep writing these books and try to get them out into the hands as many kids as we can. One of the things also was affordability. A lot of parents can't afford expensive books. So our first book is only four point $95. Our second book is five point 95. And we haven't decided the third book yet. But it's going to be affordable, and that's important, like getting things in the hands of kids that they can have, hope they have something they can resemble them and their experience, because if it's black or dyslexia or learning disability, they can connect to it. And that's all the part about what Doctor Nash taught me was having appreciation, to connect to what I'm doing to my reading and understand what I'm doing and how it can help me navigate my world, my life. And so we just want to try something different.
[00:45:09.830] - Speaker 3
And it took off.
[00:45:12.820] - Speaker 2
That's it. So, Sean, are these books written for a particular age range of students? Of kids?
[00:45:18.480] - Speaker 3
Yeah, we get that question a lot. So the first two books, if you're doing like a read aloud elementary school, but if a kid wants to read it independently, probably middle school enough, maybe higher elementary, but most independent, probably middle school enough.
[00:45:37.770] - Speaker 2
Got it. Okay. What's the name of the hero in the story? What's the name of the young guy in the story?
[00:45:46.410] - Speaker 3
Doctor Dyslexia. Dude, it's Sean. Okay.
[00:45:51.790] - Speaker 2
Got it.
[00:45:53.010] - Speaker 3
But we have three new characters coming out in the third book. I think it's really going to change the narrative and the game of how the codeable text are potentially looked at and how they are written, particularly not just for students with dyslexia, but students from different ethnic backgrounds.
[00:46:19.050] - Speaker 2
The third volume is Decodable Text.
[00:46:22.020] - Speaker 3
Yes, it's going to be a decodable text working particularly Onset Rise, too. And I'm but more through like a hip hop lens, like a rapping hip hop, because we also want to make it culture responsive and get kids engaged. It's going to have an urban feel to it, too. Like Chicago not given a lot of way, but it's going to have a lot of themes to it that I think they're going to really resonate with kids and get them engaged and spark their interest and open their mind to imagination. That's what decoding is, and that's what encoding is. And that's what science and reading is supposed to do. The kids is let them imagine, let them play around with stuff, let them be a construction worker, let them take these apart, put these together, let them understand that they can be able to master this complex language with a little help that makes sense.
[00:47:17.000] - Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, sounds fabulous. I was talking to somebody not too long ago, and she's a teacher who works with struggling readers, specifically in the middle school age range. And she had been working with this young man, and she'd been just kind of taking him through phoneme grapping mapping, onset, rhyme, celebration. And once he kind of had insight into how that language works and what those squiggly lines on the page mean, he looked her and he said, why didn't somebody tell me this before? I mean, why didn't somebody just explain how the language works before?
[00:48:02.830] - Speaker 3
It's important to explain things, so I'm leaning for it so I can try to hear a little bit too. It's important. It's important to explain these things in depth so students can visualize it and they can see it and see how it's all connected, and then they can comprehend it. If you think about the four part processor. Right. Like we have the pharmological orthography meaning and context, like having the ability to understand it and how to use it and how to see it, how it applies to life.
[00:48:35.050] - Speaker 2
Yeah. A friend of mine recently sent me a photo from a classroom, and the teacher has the four part processor in the classroom so that she can say to kids, this is what we're learning. This is why we're learning it. This is how your brain is functioning here. And she said it's just the kids love it because it's saying this is what's behind the curtain. Right. Reading doesn't have to be mysterious. We can unlock this for you. And this is what your brain is doing in the active reading.
[00:49:02.470] - Speaker 3
Yes, actually, I do the same thing at the community College. So before we even get into actual Orton Gillingham instruction or multi sensory instruction and really learn about phone use, graphics, and before we even do that, we watch three videos and we have discussion about the videos. So it gives them an understanding of what they're getting into and how it's connected. One of the videos we watch is about the four part processor. I love it. I think it's just great. That teacher.
[00:49:35.530] - Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. Let's remove the veil. I mean, I think about my own self as a teacher, and I feel like as a beginning teacher, I did a lot of teaching around reading, like a kind of activity surrounding reading, but never really getting to the core of what reading is. And I do think that's one thing that you've talked about a lot here today, and the whole idea of the science of reading really is to unlock that mystery in very direct ways for kids.
[00:50:15.430] - Speaker 3
And unfortunately, we had this conversation about the science reading or however people want to define it, there's a population that are completely neglected from the conversation. When we think about the science reading, it's really to train early education teachers. Right. I mean, K through 3rd, 4th grade, maybe some middle school. Right. But what about the adolescents? What about the adult learners? They should be learning this stuff, too. They are just as capable of learning this stuff as a younger kid. I'm not saying that early education is not important. It is. You need to start there. But there's pockets of learners that are not being served with this curriculum, and particularly adolescents and adult learners, community colleges, community organizations, literacy networks, they're not focusing on this type of methodology or approach in their classes. So that's why we see a lot of issues with retention students not being retained and having to take the same course over and over again. And they get frustrated and they drop out because they can't master College reading strategy courses that focus more on strategies versus this science of reading. So if we give them the science reading as a prerequisite before they get into the College reading courses, it makes a lot more sense to them.
[00:51:40.620] - Speaker 3
It'd be a lot easier for them to make connections and vocabulary and build their vocabulary, scientific terminology in Latin and Greek. It would just be a lot easier for them, in my opinion.
[00:51:54.670] - Speaker 2
Yeah, totally. As I was going through your information about your experiences, you've received a lot of honors for the work that you're doing. And I know you share your research. You share Dr. Dyslexia. Dude, I saw that during the Obama administration, you gave a presentation at the White House to the director of my Brother's Keeper Initiative. And I understand you just did a Ted talk.
[00:52:22.990] - Speaker 3
Yes.
[00:52:24.430] - Speaker 2
What was your Ted talk like?
[00:52:27.670] - Speaker 3
It was like talking in a closet dark with light flashlight. It was a smaller venue, I think, because the Covet very limited number of people. So I can really only see the people, like in the front. I really couldn't see the people behind because it was pitch black, especially with the light on you. And you get 18 minutes to talk about your story, your research, whatever they contact you for to do. And so I have 18 minutes to talk about my life in 18 minutes.
[00:53:08.970] - Speaker 2
Well, I'll definitely have to put the link in the show notes for our listeners.
[00:53:14.730] - Speaker 3
Yeah. One of the things as you talk about accolades, life brings us accolades. If we don't get them, I'm okay with that? I'll search out and say, hey, I want this accolade, but this one accolade that really stands out to me the most of all the experiences that I had. And a lot of students, when I had an office in person, they would say, Dr. Odison, you don't have any diplomas up. You don't have your undergrad, your Masters, your PhD diploma up. You don't have anything like any other professors like you're. Just a plan office. I said, well, that's who I am. But there's one plaque I keep up. Can you see that one behind me?
[00:53:52.130] - Speaker 2
I can. What is it? What does it say?
[00:53:54.670] - Speaker 3
So that plaque is from Newture High School. That's the high school I went to. That's the high school that kicked me out. That's the high school that told me I wasn't going to be anything. That's the high school that sent me into the world reading at an elementary level. And in 2017, they ducked me into the high school hall of honor. So that plaque you see is up in the Rotunda at the main campus on campus. So this plaque is a reminder of where I came from and all the people that helped me get to where I'm at today. That's the only type that matters to me right there because that plaque speaks of Coach Carpenter, Coach Taviano, Coach Barfield, Mr. Goldstein, the Bronzkies, the Theodore, all the teachers who I had throughout my career, Mr. Pearson, all the people, Mrs. Zaradny, all the teachers who I'm naming off. I know I probably forget if you all apart of that. Also, Dr. Kicks, Dr. Nash, Mike Flanagan, Dr. Syvester, Dr. Steve Graham, who is on my education committee, doctor Barley, Dr. Caldwell, Dr. Wolfe, people that believed in me, Dr. Julie Washington, people that took time out of their day to help me, regardless if it was my high school undergrad Masters or PhD.
[00:55:35.850] - Speaker 3
Doctor McDevitt, like all the people who I had, that speaks to them because they were the part of helping me get to where I'm at today. Yeah, I take the credit because I had to do all the work, but I can't remember the people that helped me get to where I'm at today. So I'm always thankful. I always speak that because without my family, my wife, my mother, I would not be who I am today. So I always give gratitude to those that lay down paved the way for me to move forward. That makes sense.
[00:56:06.500] - Speaker 2
Oh, it makes perfect sense. I feel the same way. I feel the same way. I feel so much gratitude. But that's wonderful because what that reminds you of is all the people who believed in you, right?
[00:56:19.890] - Speaker 3
Yes. I tell kids all the time I'm not going to sit here and tell you something that I have not done or experienced before. So even in my adult learning class, I tell students everything I teach you. I'm a student of like I'm actually a student of, and I studied it, so I have street credit. I'm not just going to tell you something because a book tells me to tell you. No, I'm going to tell you because I've lived it before and I tell students younger. Failure is my friends. Failure has made me who I am today. It's like a little train. I think I can. No matter what I come across, I got to try. And if I fail, yeah, I fail. Big deal. Keep moving. Like at the end of the world, it's not a make or break it. But if I don't try, that to me is worse than trying and not passing. Like, if I don't do it at all, then I kind of down on myself. So that's why I always try new challenges. Where my own mental health. I like to bike. I don't bike just 20 miles in one sitting.
[00:57:24.720] - Speaker 3
It's very difficult for me to do that. I like to bike 100 miles at a time. So I've done last October to raise awareness on Dyslexia and to honor Dr. Nash's life and to bring awareness of mental health. I bike 175 miles, so I bike from OSCOs, Wisconsin, to Evanston, Illinois, one day. And so I just bike. I like to get out and just go because it reminds me of my own journey of perseverance and pushing through and not giving up and believing in myself and having the ability to finish strong. And no matter how tired I am, I got to keep pushing through. And that's the same thing with life, learning to read is that sometimes you just got to push through and you got to believe in yourself and you got to keep moving. You got to stay on the ropes. I know I'm talking too much. I'll be quiet.
[00:58:16.390] - Speaker 2
Sorry. No, I love it. And the fact I love what you said about failure being a friend, because I do think sometimes we don't acknowledge that for our kids, failure is a great teacher, and it not only teaches us to persevere, but it also keeps us humble. And sometimes I think we don't let our kids fail enough. Perhaps.
[00:58:44.970] - Speaker 3
Yes.
[00:58:46.890] - Speaker 2
In what great role model you are for your boys, right?
[00:58:51.510] - Speaker 3
Yeah. Somebody came to me afterwards, my Ted talk, and they said, you're too humble. And I was like, well, you know, that's just who I am. I've had just a rough path academically. And so I'm just very humbled and thankful for all the opportunities I've been given. And I'm grateful for those that help me. And I'm grateful to be in the position to serve. And service to me is not publishing articles and trying to please people in the Academy. My service is trying to help people get out of dark places in their life where they're struggling reading and they don't know how to crack the code and they're psychologically damaged in a dark place. To me, that's service that's to me is application to me that's everything I've done to this point. One day, maybe I'll write about it in a publication, maybe I'll write in a peer review or edit the book. But right now, I'm okay with just being able to be in the position to serve and to help students navigate this place of literacy, because literacy has different forms and shapes, and I just want to be able to help them.
[01:00:12.850] - Speaker 3
Even with Tracy and her blog about the prison pipeline, unasserved communities, that's real. And even if you think about the reservations, Native American, right? You think about suburban kids. It crosses all lines. But we know that some students from some communities are neglected. We talk about cultural capital, social capital, financial capital, all these capitals play a part in students accessing this information, this knowledge, and it's controlled this way. And so being able to be in a position of leadership at the community College and not get questions about what practice theory, if I'm doing whole language mechanics, just be able to serve and get access to these adult learners, it's rewarding. Like, if I die tomorrow, my life will be fulfilled. I'm blessed. I have everything that I need right in front of me. I don't need anymore. And so this is what the access is. And affordability at the community College is my class is free. They made it free because I told them, I don't want you to charge an adult learner an extreme amount of money who can't afford it. It's accessible, it's affordable. And so the community College works with me, and they're doing great things.
[01:01:36.530] - Speaker 3
I have a great President, I have a great Provost, I have a great Dean, I have a great chair. I have great colleagues. And we are changing, literally the narrative of how adult learners are taught to read at community College in Wisconsin.
[01:01:51.730] - Speaker 2
You know, I think that is going to be incredibly interesting to those people who are tuning into this podcast. The work that you're doing, the course that you've created, I think that will be incredibly interesting to people as well. Of course, your doctor. Dyslexia dude. And by the way, I know you go into schools dressed up as Dr. Dyslexia dude. Am I right about that?
[01:02:14.230] - Speaker 3
Yeah, I dress up people like, you too old dressing up in those tight pants, tight suit. But I tell them it's about the kids. If it puts a smile on the kids face and it gives them the imagination to dream like a book does, then I'm okay with that.
[01:02:31.360] - Speaker 2
Oh, they must love it. They must absolutely love it.
[01:02:34.310] - Speaker 3
Yeah. I get some questions asking me if I could jump out the window and fly.
[01:02:39.730] - Speaker 2
Of course you do. I can see that. Yeah, exactly.
[01:02:44.590] - Speaker 3
One kid said, Dress you, dude. Can you jump the window short so you can fly? And I said, not today. He goes, you're not real. Then.
[01:02:54.850] - Speaker 2
Come on, kid, work with me.
[01:02:57.310] - Speaker 3
Not real, but yes.
[01:03:00.790] - Speaker 2
You'Re working on volume three of Dr. Dyslexia Dude, and you're a full time reading instructor at Madison College. Is there anything else you're working on that you want to let us know about?
[01:03:13.090] - Speaker 3
Well, my wife and my team are actually I think you gave us feedback. We're working on a doctor that you do supplemental game for kids. It's just hard right now trying to find funding for it, but we've sent out an early stage prototype to people to get feedback, and we've received some amazing feedback from users, and we're trying to build more people to get feedback from. So we're just really trying to change the game and make things accessible through a game. And so we have working on a Doctor Dyslexia to do a supplemental multi sensory instructional game that students can develop their own avatar and characters that resemble who they are. And so that's one thing we're working on, too, and I guess I got my hands and a lot of different.
[01:04:19.600] - Speaker 2
Hats you do now. Are you working on that with your co author, your wife, and also the illustrator? They're working on the books.
[01:04:27.890] - Speaker 3
Yeah. My wife and we have some other team members that we brought on board to help us with. It a game developer. But I guess the hard part is really right now is finding the capital to build out. We received some small business grants, and we developed this early stage prototype with limited functionality. And I just got into a rigorous business boot camp through UW System. And so we're just trying to find other partners or people that want to help us scale this and get out there to kids and test it and see what type of feedback we get.
[01:05:12.020] - Speaker 2
That's fantastic. So if people who are listening to this want to know more about your game, is this on your Doctor Dyslexia Dude website?
[01:05:21.010] - Speaker 3
No, it's on my other website, Doctor Sean Anthony Robinson. But they can just email me, too.
[01:05:31.870] - Speaker 2
All right. If people are listening to this and they're intrigued by that or want to know more or maybe want to partner with you, we'll put your website in the show notes so they can get a hold of you. Yeah. Good. Well, you are a busy man, and I am so grateful that you took the time to speak with us today and to share your important work and to share your compelling story and your motto. Just keep moving forward.
[01:06:03.170] - Speaker 3
I tell people I love Kim. My wife said, Who's Kim? And I said, Keep it moving. Keep it moving. K, I am Kim. She looked at me and she's like, okay, when I say Kim is a lady, but I'm like, no, keep it moving. Acting and keep it moving. So in life, you just got to keep moving.
[01:06:22.600] - Speaker 2
I love it. Who's Kim?
[01:06:23.990] - Speaker 3
Yeah, who's Kim? I was like, you know Kim. She's like, no. I was like, keep it moving. Then she started laughing.
[01:06:33.020] - Speaker 2
Of course. So I have one last question for you, Sean. What are your greatest hopes for today's children?
[01:06:46.410] - Speaker 3
They just get access to instruction, methodology, however you want to frame it. Just access is the key word that allows them to use their imagination and creativity to follow their dreams and walk in the purpose that they were given and just had hope in their life, that they themselves can live a fulfilled life and not go through life knowing that should have, could have, would have. And just having opportunities. And I think about hope, I think about this help the age, regardless of what we do, we're helping people, and people are helping us. Right. We're teachers of reading. We're helping kids crack the code, but we're also the kids are helping us understand how to teach reading. Right. So it's reciprocal. The O is for opportunity. Every kid needs an opportunity. And by helping them crack the code, we're giving them an opportunity to crack the code. Right. And then the P is progress. We get to see them manifest, speaking to life to crack the toll, to kill the board. What's the first sound you hear and cat or one silver word or multi silver word, and they get it one letter at a time, one symbol at a time.
[01:08:15.160] - Speaker 3
They're making progress. Right. And so to help the opportunity, the progress are all important elements of the hope. But the biggest one is the E, which is empowered. You're empowering people, right? You can't take the empowerment away from anybody. Once they empowered, they become liberated. They're awoke, they are able to speak things into existence. They're able to do things independently. They don't need to rely on somebody else to do things for them. And in some situations, some kids, when you empower them, they become a threat because they become critically conscious of how the world works and how the world treats certain subclass of individuals. And so when I speak to people, sometimes people say, you are angry black man or you're a threat because Dr. Nash woke me up. He empowered me to become free thinking, educated, and allow me to see the world, the good in the world, but also the bad in the world, too. And so those big things is giving kids hope, help, opportunity, progress, empowerment. Those are essential to learning to read. I don't care about what framework or where you came from. If you have a relationship with any kids, you won't be able to help them.
[01:09:44.500] - Speaker 3
You won't be able to give them opportunity. You won't be able to make them get progress. You won't be able to empower them if you have a relationship. And those things are essential. Before you even get into the science reading, you got to build relationships. You got to meet students where they're at. You got to respect their communities, you got to respect their cultural capital. You got to really put yourself in their shoes. So when you think about kids, I think about helping them give them opportunities, progress, empowerment. And that's what we try to do through the kids books and that's what I try to do at the community College and that's what I try to do with my own kids is just give people hope and I don't know if that helps or not. I kind of rambled on there a little bit. Went on tangent.
[01:10:29.310] - Speaker 2
I think that is the perfect way for us to end our conversation today. Help opportunity, progress, empowerment. Amen yes.
[01:10:41.060] - Speaker 3
I feel like I'm in Church. I should send a tie offering around, you know. You're welcome.
[01:10:50.340] - Speaker 2
Thank you so much for this time today. I really appreciate it. Really. This has been wonderful. It's been a wonderful conversation and I really appreciate you and thank you for the work that you're putting out there in the world.
[01:11:06.410] - Speaker 3
You're welcome. It's what was divine invention when I was born and Dr. Nash was really other people had really helped me find my voice and place in this world and I'm just going to keep doing what I do and not try to look for acceptance or approval for anybody in Academy.
[01:11:29.210] - Speaker 2
You're on the path. You're on your path.
[01:11:31.530] - Speaker 3
Yeah, that's it. Little train ChuChu. Yeah. Just keep moving forward.
[01:11:39.810] - Speaker 2
Thanks again.
[01:11:40.800] - Speaker 3
I really appreciate you're welcome.
[01:11:42.360] - Speaker 2
Take care.
[01:11:43.830] - Speaker 3
All right. Bye. Bye.
[01:11:45.040] - Speaker 2
Bye.
[01:11:48.730] - Speaker 1
I am sure that you were moved by Sean's compelling story as I was just so much gratitude for all of his work now and his work in the future. Thank you, Sean and thank you for listening and for your ongoing support of the reading League. Please be sure to go to our website www.thereadingleg.org and check out our latest initiatives including our science of reading, a defining movement, and our accompanying defining guide which is designed to really clarify the science of reading and bring a call to action to change the face of literacy in this country. And be sure to download that guide and share it with others so we appreciate you and all you do. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.