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If Dumbledore is to believe then Nicholas Flamel, creator and proprietor of the Philosopher's Stone, made some truly interesting decisions in the last year of his life. That is, of course, presuming Flamel wasn't already dead when the book begins.
Discussion, analysis, and exotic opinions surrounding fandoms like Twilight, Star Wars, Harry Potter, the MCU, and far too many animes.
[00:00] Vinelle: Hi. Welcome to this new episode of Frank Kerrissi. Our first one in a while because of a while, a spontaneous hiatus. We like to be spontaneous.
[00:13] Carnivorous Muffin: What's? It spontaneous. I feel like we both got busy and then time zones actually worked their magic for those unfamiliar. Vanella and I live across the Atlanta pick from one another, and Vanelle gets to record these at 03:00 a.m. Or midnight or whatever time it is there because she drew the short straw.
[00:38] Vinelle: Well, the number of cats in my house sort of increased a little bit.
[00:43] Carnivorous Muffin: Exponentially. It was an exponential increase in cats.
[00:47] Vinelle: I have twice as many cats now as I did when the last episode was. Yeah. So we'll just have what Muffin refers to as a washing machine of cats just funking in the background. And that leads to a certain editing process as you have to edit out all the funking noises of cats doing mysterious things in the background and me occasionally going, no, cat don't. Yeah, I'm blaming the cats and life.
[01:18] Carnivorous Muffin: That's very fair. But we're back. All right, so rather than talk about general things today, as we have been doing so far, we're going to say, screw it, get deep in the weeds and actually talk about something new that has not been hashed to death on Tumblr. So for our Tumblr followers, who probably are the only listeners, we are going.
[01:41] Vinelle: To accuse Dumbledore of murder. Hooray, it is our belief that he killed Nicholas Lamel.
[01:49] Carnivorous Muffin: Yeah, straight for the punchline. Because there are other is he technically responsible for the suicide of Harry? I don't know if I'd call that murder, but it's certainly something I think.
[02:02] Vinelle: If we go down this road, we will sidetrack so much.
[02:07] Carnivorous Muffin: True. All right, we can't sidetrack. We'll only accuse Dumbledore of one murder today, and this is a real people murder in that we think he did it.
[02:16] Vinelle: Yes. You want to go over to canon?
[02:19] Carnivorous Muffin: Sure I can. Canon recap. So, as you all probably remember, and granted, we are a little fuzzy, and I'm sure if we get anything wrong, we will be murdered by somebody, but we'll go with it anyway. So if you remember canon, the first book was the Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. And the McGuffin of the book was the Philosopher's Stone, which was I think the title is called Sorcerer Stone. I don't even remember. That's a good sign. Anyway, it was made by a man named Nicholas Flamel some number of centuries ago and has the power for those who follow the Philosopher's Stone across various media franchises. It always does the same thing. It can turn lead into gold, and it can create this elixir of life that if you drink it, you will remain alive forever. So Nicholas Flamel has been around for ages, and what happens in the book is that there was an attempted break in at his house in France, and Dumbledore, who he had a connection with. He sent the stone to Hogwarts to be more safely protected while this thief was at large. And we'll get into this in a bit because that makes no damn sense. There's an attempted break in at Hog, at Gringotts, where the stone was and Hagrid went to pick it up on the day of the break in which was how Harry got introduced to this mystery. And then at the end of the year we find out that Dumbledore has set up what is frankly an obstacle course to protect the Stone. Which is really, as usual, just to fuck with Tom Riddle, he's certain is alive even though the man's been dead for over ten years. But anyway, he sets up an obstacle course Harry gets through it he solves the riddle at the end, which is you have to want the stone not to use it, but to just have it. Anyway, so Harry gets the Stone, and then he melts Quarrel's face and he's hospitalized for three days. After which banal, you went gray for a moment. It was scary.
[04:33] Vinelle: Oh, no, I just muted myself so I wouldn't make any background.
[04:37] Carnivorous Muffin: Oh, that's muting. That's muting now, all right. Anyway, after which Harry is told by Dumbledore that the Stone has been destroyed because Flamel thought it was too dangerous that it might end up in Voldemort's hand. And Flamel quietly passed off away in the night along with his wife and it was a good eternal sleep or something. Sweet dream, sweet prince.
[05:01] Vinelle: So just to get into the trouble right away there was an attempt to break in at Flamel's House and that it failed.
[05:07] Carnivorous Muffin: Wait, am I making that up? Was it Flamel's House or I know it was Gringotts, but I believe it was Flamel's House first.
[05:14] Vinelle: Yes, it was Flamel's house first.
[05:15] Carnivorous Muffin: Right. Then it was transported to Gringotts and we tried again and then it was transported to Hogwarts. Got it?
[05:21] Vinelle: Yes. So there's an attempt at a break in at Flamels. And while we don't know the detail, we do know that it failed. And the thing is, I would wager that this has sort of happened before. He has the most valuable stone in the world. It can grant you eternal life and eternal riches. There is no way. The fact that he failed in the first place means that his security is great. Tom was able to get in and out of Grin god's. Unheard of, actually.
[05:49] Carnivorous Muffin: Or if you think about it, that it stayed in the hands of the original creator over several centuries in Europe when they were all at war with each other all the damn time. Especially France.
[06:04] Vinelle: Yes. This is a man who can protect his valuables.
[06:08] Carnivorous Muffin: How was that stone not stolen by? I don't even know.
[06:14] Vinelle: Someone must be an immensely talented wizard.
[06:18] Carnivorous Muffin: To enter his house. Must be death. It's a death sentence.
[06:25] Vinelle: Yes. So we have this failed attempt and then Dumbledore comes along and says hey, you know this British warlord who died ten years ago? There's been no sign of life since. Well he's alive and he's the one who did it and Flamel I think you should give the stones to me. And our problem here with this is first of all why would Flamel believe this was Tom Riddle? There was no indication of that. Tom is perfectly dead. Everybody believes that.
[06:52] Carnivorous Muffin: It's almost the start of A Christmas Carol. Tom Riddle is as dead as a door nail. We can be very certain of that. We have seen the burnt remains of him.
[07:02] Vinelle: Yeah he kind of famously blew up but of course Dumbledore isn't season no totally Tom Reynolds and you should give me the stone which by itself sort of sounds like Dumbledore is the one who broke in so that he could get Flamel to give him the stone.
[07:17] Carnivorous Muffin: Actually now that you mention it you're right. Dumbledore is the asshole who manages to steal the stone after century or get it away from Flamella at least after centuries. You got to imagine every apprentice Flamella has had has tried and thought deeply about it.
[07:36] Vinelle: Oh yes Dumbledore who is able to get it out. And the thing is I struggle to believe that Flamel who has been able to protect his stones for all this time wouldn't trust his own security especially.
[07:51] Carnivorous Muffin: Since the break and failed. That is the key point here. Granted we don't know how close it was and how shook up he was maybe he did feel that but it failed. It did not succeed or it did not seem to nearly succeed.
[08:07] Vinelle: The second point is that Flamel choosing to die at the end. We could view that as him saying okay there have been enough attempted break ins one of these days perhaps this guy didn't succeed but one of them is going to succeed inevitably maybe it's time to say goodbye. But that is also a bit of a big coincidence when you were also asked to accept that he didn't trust his own security. These are two big admissions that I frankly don't see any reason for him to make when we saw that all of the attempts have failed. The Stone is safe at the end there but instead having now if we go if you take Dumbledore at face value then Flamel has kept his Stone safe for all these years. And when he starts doubting his own security and gives it to Dumbledore he is giving it to Dumbledore specifically to safekeep it because he wants to keep the stone around. If he was going to make the I think it's time to die. I am a vice man and blah, blah, blah vice people accept of immortality bad, blah, blah. Harry Potter really has some messaging about immortality bad. No, but I had to you have.
[09:19] Carnivorous Muffin: To I know and yeah it doesn't really have deep thoughts on that. It's just immortality no, it's one thing for Tom Riddle, he has to achieve immortality through the murder of others. That murder is bad, MK. But Flamel, he's just sitting in his.
[09:34] Vinelle: House, he's not hurting anybody.
[09:36] Carnivorous Muffin: Yeah, the point being it's the timing that's so suspect because we had flamel was concerned enough about the stone. Rather than destroy it, when he began doubting his security, he sends it off to an entirely foreign country where he has no access to it for months and Dumbledore makes an obstacle course using it. And at the end of that, where perhaps Dumbledore doesn't tell him that his practices of keeping the stone safe were perhaps used as bait instead of actual protections.
[10:14] Vinelle: It is worth noting, though, that Plumel had no hand in any of those protections. He just gave it to Dumbledore, no strings attached. He didn't follow it or anything. Like Dumbledore has a vacancy for professors every single year. He couldn't have hired Flamel so Flamel could look after his own stone. Of course, that was never Dumbledore's objective, but from Flamel's point of view, his interest is going to be to stay close to that damn stone that the Enchantments protecting. It was stuff like we had transfiguration professor make a chess part. Dumbledore started lying to his teeth to Flamel about what he's done and making up beautiful stories about the amazing protections he has. Or Flamel doesn't agree or is perhaps dead when the book begins.
[11:00] Carnivorous Muffin: Right, so getting to that. Why did Dumbledore do it and when did he do it?
[11:06] Vinelle: Frankly, what made us think this initially is the way Dumbledore speaks of Flamel physician to die. He gives such serene description of how death sometimes simply is quite like falling asleep.
[11:22] Carnivorous Muffin: And it is death, sweet, sweet death.
[11:25] Vinelle: Yes. And it just sort of sounds almost a bit like he's describing something.
[11:32] Carnivorous Muffin: It does. He's granted Dumbledore likes his imagery and he has a vivid imagination, but it was very odd phrasing and I don't have the book in front of me, but neither. What he describes is Flamel and his wife drifting off into a peaceful sleep and quietly leaving this earth, almost as if it was a relief. It's like he's sitting there watching it.
[11:57] Vinelle: And of course, if Flamel had a break in and invited Dumbledore over, perhaps Dumbledore offered to check out the enchantments or something like that, then it would not have been difficult for Dumbledore to say, let's have a cup of tea. And then of course, he would have all the time in the world to break whatever enchantments Fleming had and then make off with the stone.
[12:16] Carnivorous Muffin: Right, and so getting into how Dumbledore justifies this to himself because Dumbledore is one of those odd people, well, perhaps not odd, but I think he genuinely believes what he says and believes he holds the convictions he does and definitely believes murder is wrong. The trouble is I think he justifies it the way he justifies it to Harry is that flamel had lived too long. It was time for him to let go of life that he had been mistakenly perhaps clinging to and that this was the best option for all involved and that Tom is so dangerous that the stone simply just cannot remain, I think in that he could justify I don't think he'd see it as murder me either.
[13:02] Vinelle: He is the kind of man who as we mentioned briefly at the beginning of the episode who doesn't do what he does to Harry as murder. He radicalizes a young like a child starting when he's eleven to such an end that Harry will in the end kill himself to destroy Voldemort. And he never views it as a wrong thing. He reads it as difficult for himself, it brings him grief, but he still does it because killing Voldemort is worth Harry's death. That is the kind of thinking that is going to enemy you to believings as some people sometimes it's worth it and he on the dumbledore is able to decide when it is worth it.
[13:47] Carnivorous Muffin: So to play devil's advocate a little bit this is a very spicy take obviously we're accusing Albus Dumbledore of cold blooded murder over a McGuffin from the first book that wasn't even that important in the series so to play devil's advocate did Dumbledore not do it? Well, it could have gone exactly like he said. Perhaps he doesn't tell Flamel all the details of how exactly he was protecting the stone and perhaps Flamel trusted him so much that he took a very hands off approach and never visited Hogwarts during that time, didn't insist on staying there, didn't insist on seeing the protections and testing them himself. And when Dumbledore turned, brought the stone with him and said within the three days that Harry's hospitalized and said, look, we protected it, but it was a very close call I really think you should destroy this. And Flamel, you know, thinks about it probably very hard and lets out a sigh and regretfully agrees it could technically have happened. But it's on such a short time frame of he was protecting the stone, clearly intended to use it to the time he suddenly decides all right, yeah, we have to destroy it because a man you think is dead, who died in the process of trying to get this stone, will come back for it, and it's simply too dangerous.
[15:24] Vinelle: Yes and there's the fact that it's not just Flamel who will be dying it is his wife as well he has kept her with him for five centuries against a threat that no longer exists that he only ever had Dumbledore's word that he existed. It feels like one of those stories if you just look at the fact not what Dumbledore is telling you then I know which story I find more compelling, more likely I have to say.
[16:00] Carnivorous Muffin: I can't even devils advocate this one.
[16:03] Vinelle: Yeah it was a good try. It's just that it's so contrived.
[16:09] Carnivorous Muffin: It's so contrived. Dumbledore did it. He murdered that bastard. And Dumbledore does things like this. He purposefully hires Gilderoy Lockhart because he wants the curse on the position to do something horrible to him.
[16:25] Vinelle: Never mind that people have died in that position.
[16:28] Carnivorous Muffin: People have died. And then Gilderoy Lockhart gets his memory wiped and is sent to St Mungo's for the rest of his life. Because, I mean, granted, what he did was awful and Dumbledore was burning for revenge, but, wow, what a way to do it.
[16:51] Vinelle: Yeah, but Dumbledore generally, for instance, this is probably another episode, but with the POTUS, it will happen. That Godrick Solo, he could have protected him better. There was no reason, for instance, why he couldn't have been the Secret Keeper, no reason why he couldn't have kept him at Hogwarts. There were other ways he could have kept them safer. And he always that. This is probably for another episode, but he never seems to have actually shaken the greater good way of viewing the world. He is a utilitarian.
[17:24] Carnivorous Muffin: He certainly is. But yeah, that is a rabbit hole of spice. But to plant a teaser for whenever that future episode is, it's looking highly likely that James and Lily were used.
[17:37] Vinelle: As bait this beautiful choice of Secret Keeper. James has three friends.
[17:45] Carnivorous Muffin: He has three friends. It doesn't even matter that Peter's the traitor. This is another barrel of spice, probably for another episode. But Peter probably saved a lot of lives by betraying them first. He's still a cowardly.
[18:00] Vinelle: Rat walmart just had caught his way through James trends and the first person he was going to go to anyway was Sirius. And Sirius knew, I don't know how to say, we all know that Tommy could read minds. Seriously. He didn't. Clements, and even if he was, wouldn't have held up for long. All it meant is that, if nothing else, and Peter at the very least, saved Serious's life.
[18:27] Carnivorous Muffin: Most likely more serious and remus, I would imagine.
[18:30] Vinelle: Yeah, but he would have gone to Serious first.
[18:32] Carnivorous Muffin: Yeah, serious first. True. Oh, and yeah, he was the original. He was the Secret Keeper option.
[18:37] Vinelle: Yeah. They all knew that he would be coming for Serious. That's why they said, brilliantly, we're going to make it another guy, one who is just as vulnerable as Serious, and that Serious knows about.
[18:49] Carnivorous Muffin: We'll make it. James's other best friend. They'll never guess, they won't just work their way through three people who are all in Britain.
[19:01] Vinelle: Yes. And with James, it makes sense that he seems to have been the sort of person who really adored his friends. And I don't think it wait, Muffin, we are digressing.
[19:15] Carnivorous Muffin: This is a 20 minutes episode. I think we're due for a little digression. And that's interesting, but all right, last thing on that is that, yeah, James really likes his friends and he was 21 at the age of his death.
[19:28] Vinelle: Yes.
[19:29] Carnivorous Muffin: He's allowed to be a little near sighted and stupid.
[19:33] Vinelle: I mean, he even was near sighted. He wore glasses.
[19:36] Carnivorous Muffin: He wore glasses.
[19:38] Vinelle: All right, I'm allowed to say that because I'm also nervous.
[19:42] Carnivorous Muffin: You're allowed to make fun of people with glasses. Okay. All right. We have anything else to cover in this, or is this going to be.
[19:50] Vinelle: I could always talk more about my cats, but you could talk more about your cat. You could with that, I forgot to pull out Torgram, and I don't remember how many patrons we even have at this point, but we do have a Patreon.
[20:06] Carnivorous Muffin: We do have a patreon. And we've made an episode again, so I feel bad for leaving people hanging on. But, hey, I guess you really liked our bonus content that you can only access behind the paywall.
[20:22] Vinelle: Yeah, there's me recounting the time I was forced to flash mobs into Pope Francis II, and us reading my terrible Derrick and making Merciless fun of it, which he deserves. And, yeah, we have things on Patreon.
[20:42] Carnivorous Muffin: We have things on Patreon. There are benefits. Yeah, but yes, we have a patreon. And one of the benefits is that we pull out a random number generator and see who Tor Grim, the vampire who blows things up.
[21:01] Vinelle: There might have been a funk in the background because the cat jumped down.
[21:06] Carnivorous Muffin: All right, blow someone up already.
[21:09] Vinelle: The thing is, I haven't pulled out a list or anything. How about we just blow up two people next episode?
[21:14] Carnivorous Muffin: Okay, fair enough. We owe you two blowing ups.
[21:18] Vinelle: Yes.
[21:20] Carnivorous Muffin: All right.
[21:21] Vinelle: With that. In case we don't see you again, good afternoon, good evening, and good night.