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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
00:00:05:03 - 00:00:40:16
Unknown
Hello and welcome to the Moon Shots podcast. It's episode 244. I'm your co-host, Mike Parsons. And as always, I'm joined by Mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning, Mark. Hey, good morning, Mike. Good morning. Subscribers, viewers, listeners and fans of the Moonshot show. Boy, might I again, maybe it's fair to say that I say this too much, but I must admit to all of our listeners today, it is an action packed episode today, possibly one of a standout episodes in the sport within the current sports series, don't you think?
00:00:40:18 - 00:01:07:20
Unknown
I do. It is somebody who was great as a player, great as a coach, not once, but twice. We have a lot to learn. Mr. Mark Pearson. Freeland Today, listeners and viewers and subscribers, we are digging into Phil Jackson's 11 rings now. Phil Jackson, for those who have watched the last dance, for those who follow NBA, he is a coach that probably doesn't need too much of an introduction.
00:01:07:22 - 00:01:54:23
Unknown
But Mike, I think it's fair to say that he has an an astonishing volume of accomplishments, an astonishing amount of performance, not only, as you say, on the court as a player, but also leading from the bench for the Chicago Bulls for everyone in between. I think it's quite substantial as we're going to find out today just how much input and influence that actually Phil Jackson had over the game and over, at least for me, my childhood and my understanding of the NBA game as I was growing up, how he has contributed so much not only to how sporting I sort of shed memories, only to think of people like Michael Jordan hoisting the the
00:01:54:23 - 00:02:18:12
Unknown
trophy many times, as did Kobe. But the thing that we maybe don't realize is that Phil Jackson actually did it as a player as well. So we have learned from Kobe and Michael Jordan as part of our focus on sports stars. But this is such a great treat to be able to go to the other side of the team on the coaching side.
00:02:18:14 - 00:02:41:12
Unknown
And I think that parallels with us leading our teams at work is huge. But I think it's also so particularly unique, the work of Phil Jackson, because, yes, he gave players skills. Yes, he turned a group of players into a team, and he did that by not only giving them skills and behaviors, but also a culture and a philosophy.
00:02:41:14 - 00:03:05:25
Unknown
He even says on the book it was the soul of success. So we can go and take these lessons, learnings, insights, practices and habits, take them to the office from the basketball court and build great teams and get world class results. I'm fired up on Mark. Well, I'll tell you what. So my mike, I've done my stretches. I'm ready to hit the court.
00:03:05:25 - 00:03:27:01
Unknown
So maybe, Mike, we can launch straight in. As mentioned, as demonstrated by the cover of the book 11 Rings that the accomplishments of Phil Jackson. That's six times Mike with the Chicago Bulls and five times with the L.A. Lakers. So I think the consistent thing not only is Phil himself, but also a little bit about teams. So let's hear from Phil now.
00:03:27:01 - 00:03:55:07
Unknown
Break down a little bit to John Salley about how he guided one of the most infamous players, Michael Jordan, to become one of the greatest players of all time. You were able to get this kid to become better than he already was. How do you do that? It was an expansive view. Michael had a limited viewpoint of his own teammates.
00:03:55:09 - 00:04:19:25
Unknown
And you see, you know, the foibles, the weakness of your own teenager with them all the time. And, you know, at some level you have to say, you know, this guy's really good. He does this really well. He does he makes timely shots. He makes good passes and whatnot. We're not going to focus on the fact that maybe he can handle the ball under pressure.
00:04:20:01 - 00:04:44:03
Unknown
Maybe he gets a little nervous taking the ball inbounds. Maybe there's a defensive lapse. He doesn't move his feet quick enough in this situation. We'll cover for him because that's what we are. We're a team and the initial conversation I had with MJ was you've been averaging 37, 38 points a game, you've been winning MVP awards, but you're not getting there.
00:04:44:05 - 00:05:10:00
Unknown
And I don't think anybody one scoring championship has also won an NBA championship. And that's the most important thing, right? Right. So we established that. And then I said, So I want you to realize you're not going to be getting as many touches or take as many shots. 732 points a game. I can do that and still want to win the scoring title.
00:05:10:02 - 00:05:30:23
Unknown
That would be no problem for me to take five points up by an average or whatever, you know. I said, Well, that's only three or four shots, isn't it? Well, he said, maybe it's five or six, but anyway, the idea that I brought to him was the spotlight's always on you. And so what happens? You get against a good team like Detroit and that spotlights on you.
00:05:30:23 - 00:05:52:14
Unknown
You have the ball. The ball is the spotlight. And as soon as you put it down on the floor, they have three guys to collapse on you. You're not going to get there. So we have to use you as a decoy and certain times in the game where people will go with you and other people have easier shots and you have to trust your teammates to be able to make them better and you'll be able to do that.
00:05:52:16 - 00:06:21:07
Unknown
And he bought into it. my gosh. What you have to realize is, whilst Phil is just talking about it there, can you imagine, Mark, how many conversations it took, how much trust it took to tell the greatest basketball of all time that he needed to score less points and bring his team into the picture if he wanted to win the NBA championship?
00:06:21:09 - 00:06:55:02
Unknown
Could you imagine trying to convince someone is so tough minded as Michael Jordan? Hey, you're going to score less points. You're going to pass it more to the guys who are not as good as you in service to the team. Can you imagine what craft that takes as a coach? The trust, the objectivity, the fact that Michael needed to understand that you were doing that for the benefit of the team, not to take away from him, but to give to the team?
00:06:55:06 - 00:07:41:25
Unknown
Mark I think this is huge. Yeah, I think this is a real, real demonstration of a lot of the as you touched upon earlier, Mike, a lot of the lessons that we learned from some of the individuals we study on the show specifically around leadership, you know, the idea of building a team that trusts each other, that is sensitive to each other, that is open to one another, and therefore encourages good collaboration, good creativity, a peaceful workspace, it appears to me as though there's so many crossovers and so many transferable tips and pieces of work that, you know, Phil has managed to put into his work as a coach in the NBA, particularly around managing
00:07:42:01 - 00:08:28:08
Unknown
people that you can really see the argument that it is so rich, it's such a rich territory for leadership lessons. You know, I'm reminded particularly around the crucial Conversations episode that we did. Yes. The idea of not leaving too many things unsaid, the idea of actually airing concerns and challenging conversations, making sure that they happen. I have a sneaking suspicion, as you just touched upon, that with with a character as big as MJ who is used to being the key player on the court as well as off the court, to then say to him, Hey, we need you to, you know, pass the ball and actually be a decoy so that everybody, you know, leaves
00:08:28:08 - 00:08:46:23
Unknown
the rest of the players alone. That's a crucial conversation and probably was quite difficult. The fact that he managed to actually put it into practice. my gosh. MJ didn't walk away. MJ didn't throw his toys. Maybe he did. I don't know. But the fact that it happened and it led to such record breaking history is a perfect demonstration in my mind.
00:08:47:00 - 00:09:11:17
Unknown
And Phil Jackson knows how to manage people. He knows how to lead them correctly, and he knows how to keep, let's call them egos or whatever it might be in check in order to facilitate the best result for the team. What a great lesson for all teams out there. It's incredible. So it makes me think. I wonder what would be an equivalent situation in a team where you need to have this kind of conversation.
00:09:11:17 - 00:09:42:22
Unknown
And I think about an example where you've got one person in the company that knows how to do a thing, but they're the only one. And as good as it is that they can do that thing. They're the only one. So it becomes a bottleneck. Right. So-and-so is a superstar, but so-and-so is very busy. You have to with people like that, have a tough conversation and say you need to not only be the superstar, let's say you're the only one that can use a piece of technology, right?
00:09:42:24 - 00:10:00:10
Unknown
You have to teach others. Because if we don't teach others, A, your workload is going to be huge. B, you're not going to be able to do that good quality because it's just going to be so much and you're the only one to do it. And C, don't you want to take a holiday? Like, do you want to have a baby?
00:10:00:12 - 00:10:20:20
Unknown
So, so I guess where I'm going here is this conversation that he had with that Phil had with Michael Jordan is I could see this a million times of a manager having with a star person in a team. But they're the only one who knows how to, quote unquote, score the points. And maybe it's using a piece of technology.
00:10:20:20 - 00:10:43:08
Unknown
Maybe they have a client relationship that's really crucial. If they don't teach share and bring others in with it somewhat. Some might actually respond. If you're a superstar, Mark, and I say, Hey, we need you to teach many Mark over here on how to do this thing. With this piece of technology. You be like, You could be very selfish and go, Well, but hang on, I'm not going to be as important, right?
00:10:43:09 - 00:11:04:09
Unknown
I'm might not be MVP next year having the ability to say, but it is for the greater good of the team, of the company, of the organization. To me having those and you touched on this a lot this crucial conversations book that we did. So head over to Moonshots today. I dig up that in the archive. Radical candor.
00:11:04:10 - 00:11:28:22
Unknown
It's another great one that we did all about having these tough conversations for the better of the team. And the truth really is, and we're all scared like hell to have these conversations out. Yeah, and look, I think one of the other demonstrations. Exactly. To build on what you just say, Mike, is in delegation. You know, the idea of being able to share that workload.
00:11:28:24 - 00:11:59:06
Unknown
If you are the person who knows the most information, not only is there a fear of taking a step back as the most important person, but it does take time. It's quite a challenging thing to do, isn't it? To delegate? Yes. And I think the fact that he was able Phil Jackson was able to encourage players, including MJ, but also broader than that, to, you know, in quote unquote, delegate, I give the ball to somebody as, hey, I'm going to delegate scoring to you the next 10 seconds, whatever.
00:11:59:08 - 00:12:20:19
Unknown
That I think is a skill that takes time to learn. And I suspect that Phil would have had quite a substantial job to do in just the act of helping them not only come to terms with sharing the ball, but also delegating the responsibility to each other. MJ probably found it quite challenging to say, Well, if we need to win, I'm the only one who can do it.
00:12:20:21 - 00:12:39:06
Unknown
That's fine and may be true. But the point of the delegation piece, which can be a real struggle for a lot of us I've certainly struggled with delegation in my career is it's a skill, isn't it? And I think Phil has probably demonstrated his ability to teach people how to delegate correctly thanks to the success of the team.
00:12:39:08 - 00:12:59:08
Unknown
So I would say, like when we present, when we're presented with these opportunities, Mark, I think there's a couple of ways to pitch these moments, right? First of all, let's go back to you being the superstar that can use the special piece of technology. I would say, look, don't you want to have a break? Surely you need to have a break.
00:12:59:11 - 00:13:18:13
Unknown
You don't want to be doing this forever like this. This is not sustainable. Right? But there becomes a couple of other ways to do this. I would say to you, Mark, that your personal growth is once you've mastered this, you're going to want to master other things. And in order to move forward, you need to let go of something.
00:13:18:15 - 00:13:44:23
Unknown
So teaching others is a way for you to create new opportunities for you to embrace, learn and discover new skills. But it gets better. What a what an amazing gift that you could teach your colleagues skills that they don't have. Think of how rewarding that would be. Sure, if you want to do this legacy idea of how you how will you be remembered?
00:13:44:25 - 00:14:08:25
Unknown
Imagine people saying, Well, Mark was the MVP with his tech, but what meant more to me was he taught me how to do it, too. So that's why I think the deep fulfillment that comes from teaching others, helping others is a way you can have these sorts of tough conversations in service of the team, in service of getting the results.
00:14:09:01 - 00:14:28:03
Unknown
So I think there's a lot of ways if you actually really think about it, it doesn't have to be this tricky. Yeah, but Mark's the superstar. It can be all about the team, and the team is recognizing that your work in life is a team sport. It's not this. It's not too different, Mark, to being a member of the Moonshots podcast.
00:14:28:03 - 00:14:56:03
Unknown
I would say. Well, I would say that the team of the Moonshots podcast is growing week on week. Mike and the success of the show is down to that team. I think you're quite right. Well, and we may I say this, if we didn't have members, there would be no show with a game because we'd be paid. We would not have Mark We'd be paying thousands of dollars a year in hosting costs alone.
00:14:56:04 - 00:15:23:10
Unknown
Forget the software licenses like our weekly because we serve over 100,000 listeners a month. That is really expensive business to do, right? Yeah, that's right. So honestly, the banks and the moonshot good karma goes out not only week by week as we announce our members, which grows every time, but it's actually every day, every minute of the day for the Moonshot family.
00:15:23:11 - 00:15:50:15
Unknown
So thank you guys so much. And without further ado, talk about please welcome in our moonshots members, including Bob Cann, Dietmar Marjan, Conor Rodriguez, Liza and Sid. Mr. Bond. Yeah, Paul Oberg and Cowman, Joe Christian, Samuel Barber, Andre and Chris, Deborah, Lisa, Steve and Craig. Daniel. Andrew. Ravi and Evette. Karen. Raul. Nicola Ingram. Dirk Harry Karthik and Kata and Marco, all of whom are our annual members.
00:15:50:15 - 00:16:24:14
Unknown
Thank you guys so much. You really are the MVP in our minds, but challenging them for that MVP status include Jett, Roger, Anna and Roar, Nima and James, Diana and Wade, Christophe, Dennis, Laura, Smitty, Corey, Gayla Bertram and Daniela, Mike, Dan, Antonia, Vanessa, Zachary, Katie Austin and Fred Llorens and our brand new members, Jazz and Ola. Guys, thank you so much again for whether you been contributing and supporting and being a part of the team for a year, maybe longer, or even just a couple of days so far.
00:16:24:20 - 00:16:53:08
Unknown
Thank you so much. I'll go. Karma goes out to you every day of the week. So, Mark, I think what's really interesting here, I'm having a little look here on about members and I'm looking at when they joined and I think this I'm going a little bit off script here, but I'm just having a look right down here to the very first members.
00:16:53:10 - 00:17:27:20
Unknown
And let's have a look here. It is crazy. I have a feeling, Mark, that Bob, check this out. Bob, who was our first ever member of he is not a member for one year. He is not a member for two years. He has actually been a member for three years. Three years. Bob, Bob, bring it home. He is affable.
00:17:27:20 - 00:17:50:17
Unknown
Jackson He is our Kobe Bryant. Yeah. This is for you, Bob. Listen. Wow. We are so grateful. Really positive. Yeah, really great for Bob. And if you, our listeners and viewers would like to become a member, get access to the Moonshots master series, head over to moonshots dot, I hit the member button. Do your magic. Be part of the team.
00:17:50:17 - 00:18:10:22
Unknown
It'll be well worth your while. And as you do that, you're going to unlock not only the best version of yourself, you're going to find passion and obsession. And that's also part of the whole formula that not only Phil Jackson used, but Kobe as well, That's right. So now let's hear again a little bit about Phil Jackson from behind the scenes.
00:18:10:22 - 00:18:34:15
Unknown
A little bit. We're going to hear from Kobe talking to value tainment about why he says he was so loyal to Phil Jackson as your relationship, Phil, to them, you guys want face like a father figure, really? Yeah, Feels like a father figure, man. So when you were hearing all the experts saying what they were saying, commentators saying what they were saying about Phil, how were you taking them when they were saying what they were saying about him with the when he was at the Knicks?
00:18:34:17 - 00:19:07:23
Unknown
I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny. I told felt that, Phil, you know, this is all just karma for writing literally three books about me. This is this is your karma filled him. I this is all in good fun. But I was upset because people don't understand him and he is a genius in every sense of the word and how he sees the game, how he sees the spirituality of the game.
00:19:07:25 - 00:19:35:18
Unknown
And people don't understand that. And worse than that, they're intimidated by that. And even worse, they try to discredit that because they do not have the level of passion and obsessiveness, obsessiveness to get to that level. So they figured the best thing to do is to tear that level down. That's fucked up. I'm with you there 100%, by the way.
00:19:35:20 - 00:19:59:10
Unknown
Obviously had a lot of interesting rituals. You would hear about the yoga, you would hear about all the stuff that he would do. What is the weirdest thing he did with you in practice that you're like, What the hell are we doing here? Yeah, he had a Tai Chi master come to practice and we walk out there and you know, the Tai Chi master standards in a court and tells us to take our shoes off.
00:19:59:10 - 00:20:21:00
Unknown
Take our shoes off. And I'm pissed because I'm. I'm ready to, like, play basketball here. He's standing up there and says, Everybody close your eyes and stuff. And he does stuff like Monk gazing at Moon and talks about the fingertips and barely touching in the spirituality of all that. And I'm peeking around like everybody doing this shit like hell's going on.
00:20:21:02 - 00:20:53:07
Unknown
And, you know, and big ass Phil feels they're doing it himself. He's like, you know, he's doing this whole, like, doing all this stuff, you know? And I'm like, Bill, okay, I'm gonna try it. But honestly, it, it I bought into it. I bought into the meditation, I bought into the deeper connection that exists within the game. And so when you watch our teams or you watch any of Phil's teams or Chicago teams games six against Utah, you watch our games, you know, game seven against Boston.
00:20:53:09 - 00:21:34:16
Unknown
We're never rattled ever, because we're always in the moment, always in the present, always extremely calm, always looking at the reality of the situation and not letting our emotions cloud our execution. And that comes from being in that meditative state that he would teach and preach from day one. Man. It's not only passion, it's like, I'll go back to the cover of his book, you know, the Soul of Success, and it opens you up to the fact that being a good leader is not just, Hey, guys, we're going to go in that direction.
00:21:34:18 - 00:22:01:08
Unknown
But it's like, here are all the steps along the way. Here's how we're going to get there. Things like we got basketball tactics, but he's got them doing Taichi together. He's got them doing things as one. And this is a big theme that we're going to see. So when we talk about getting the team out of the office and doing something like one of the most rewarding things I can remember, boy, I'm going to date myself here.
00:22:01:10 - 00:22:34:25
Unknown
I took a team in 2006. I took them like entire company. We went to a farm and they put all of the ingredients on a big farmers table. It was a fairly big company and there were no recipes, just ingredients. And we were given three or four chefs who when we broke up into teams of 12 or so, and then we had to create a menu and cook together and eat together.
00:22:35:01 - 00:22:57:05
Unknown
And for my time at that company, that was by far the most popular, fun, engaging thing we did as a company. And we won awards. We did some great global ad campaigns, but it was that moment that we all remembered because it was the first time they'd ever really come together as a team and was like the Tai Chi thing.
00:22:57:07 - 00:23:34:21
Unknown
It's remembering that your job is not just to like produce more widgets, meet some deadlines, it's to make this something that is a worthwhile team journey. Something that it's more than the paycheck, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think you're totally right. It's that shared experience Once you've gone through and to a certain extent, I suppose obstacles, challenges as well as those great experiences, you know, getting out into new environments, maybe making a menu, maybe it's something as common as a Christmas party, whatever it might be.
00:23:34:23 - 00:23:53:13
Unknown
It can also be on the on the other side of the scale chronic Mike It can be a little bit more like a hero's journey. You've got to go through the dark time to then feel part of the team, whatever it might be, positive or negative. I think ultimately the common goal or the common output there is the shared experience builds good relationships.
00:23:53:16 - 00:24:26:05
Unknown
And we know from studying so many business leaders that the secret to a lot of the best company's successes and the most impressive performances from some of the greatest individuals out there is because of that collaboration with other people. And I think collaboration essentially means you get on well with others sometimes that means maybe challenging yourself, be more patient with others, whatever it might be, to collaborate with them, to sit down with them, to get to know each other, to get to share whatever it might be together.
00:24:26:07 - 00:24:46:10
Unknown
That's going to, I think, spell a little bit more cohesiveness when things are at work, then kick off again. Maybe it's something good, maybe you can celebrate it, You can call back to some great experiences you've had together, or if you know things get a little bit tough, you've got tricky deadlines, you've got a particularly important or maybe crucial conversation to have.
00:24:46:12 - 00:25:10:06
Unknown
I think those things become a little bit more manageable. I wouldn't say easy necessarily. Maybe depending on the situation, but it becomes more manageable if you've gone through that process with somebody else because you know that they're human, you know what makes them tick? You understand how to play well together. And I think exactly as we just heard from Kobe, Phil was a master at creating those experiences for his team, too.
00:25:10:08 - 00:25:28:00
Unknown
As we heard from Kobe, not only deal with the stresses and the pressure of the game, but also come together and work together as a single unit. And that's certainly going to be something that we figure out. And explore a little bit more in this show as well. The idea of coming together. What a great clip. great clip.
00:25:28:00 - 00:25:55:03
Unknown
And we've already kind of launched ourselves into, you know, this idea of what Phil has done to make not only great players, but great teams, the way he transformed Michael Jordan, helping him see that there is a team sport, a team activity happening here. We've seen that he's really inspired Kobe to be in the moment to bring the team with him.
00:25:55:05 - 00:26:19:06
Unknown
And this sort of is just the start, the tip of the iceberg, because now we get to start getting into some of the fundamental pillars of the philosophy. It's not just sports tactics, it's team cohesion, the soul of success, as the book says. And I want to remind all of our listeners, if they're feeling a little bit of the good vibes from this.
00:26:19:06 - 00:26:42:15
Unknown
So jump in to Apple podcast app, jump into Spotify, give us a like you can leave a comment now in both platforms. You can leave a review. We're really keen to hear from you. Give us your feedback, jump in to our literally as we're listening, as I'm talking right now, head into your app. Give us a like give us some feedback or if you're watching on YouTube, leave us a comment.
00:26:42:15 - 00:27:01:24
Unknown
Share your thoughts. We're really keen to learn with you to be the best version of ourselves together. So Mac, we want to encourage that sort of activity. And the best way we can kick that off is hearing some more wisdom about the philosophy of Phil Jackson. That's right. And now Mike, let's go in a little bit deeper, as you say.
00:27:01:24 - 00:27:22:15
Unknown
Let's hear a little bit about those principles around the idea of how Phil really accomplished and built those teams that then ended up delivering his 11 rings. Let's hear from coaches of culture, who does a great breakdown of some Phil's 11 principles and this specific one. We're going to dig into is under about benching the ego bench. The ego.
00:27:22:17 - 00:27:45:07
Unknown
This was a big one. Phil believed that coaching isn't about the coach, it's about the players. Phil delegated responsibilities, let his players be leaders. He was just the keeper of the overall team vision. Phil says. Some coaches insist on having the last word, but I always try to foster an environment in which everyone played a leadership role from the most unschooled rookies to the veteran superstar.
00:27:45:09 - 00:28:12:00
Unknown
If your primary objective is to bring the team into a state of harmony, it doesn't make sense for you to rigidly impose your authority. Needless to say, the coaching profession attracts a lot of control freaks who remind everyone constantly that they're the alpha dog in the room. I've been known to do this myself, but what I've learned over the years is that the most effective approach is to delegate authority as much as possible and nurture everyone else's leadership skills as well.
00:28:12:02 - 00:28:47:18
Unknown
When I'm able to do that, it not only brings team unity and allows others to grow, but also paradoxically strengthens my role as a leader. Jackson believes that the overall leader should look to build leaders across the board. I think it's so almost counterintuitive. We often think that Michael Jordan or Kobe are like these sole leaders, these individual leaders, these like Steve Jobs, like man in the tower, right.
00:28:47:20 - 00:29:15:20
Unknown
But what you see Phil is doing is trying to spread the leadership throughout the entire group. And there is no bigger example I can think of. And this was a hilarious moment from the last dance where Dennis Rodman is. He's gone rogue. He's gone to Vegas, he's playing up, he's partying and having a good time. And they needed him to come back to Chicago and train.
00:29:15:20 - 00:29:45:14
Unknown
They had an important couple of games coming up. And you know what was amazing is it was Michael Jordan, a fellow player, was the one that flew to Vegas, literally went to his hotel room. His girlfriend opens the door and he literally got Rodman and dragged him back on the plane. Drago And, you know, hey, the rest is history.
00:29:45:14 - 00:30:14:01
Unknown
They won the championship. The thing is, in almost every storyline you imagine this situation, it's the coach that would have flown to go get the road player. But what Phil had done is instilled in Michael the need to bring the team with him. So for Michael, it was instinct that it was him. It was natural for him to fly to Vegas, for him to go get Rodman and bring Rodman back.
00:30:14:01 - 00:30:42:06
Unknown
That to me. Mark, that is a sign that the system of leadership where we can all be leaders, where we can all contribute, that was magic. Imagine this. Imagining if all our business teams that everyone felt the need to look after each other the same way Jordan did in flying to Vegas to bring Robin Hood back in. Because in fact, what do we end up doing?
00:30:42:06 - 00:31:04:12
Unknown
Mark So often when one of our teammates goes rogue, we sit there, we judge and we criticize. I say the lesson we just got is get on the plane, go get him and bring him back in the fold. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right, Mike. I mean, similar to what we heard from coaches of culture, that Phil's approach was to act as the keeper of the team vision.
00:31:04:15 - 00:31:44:21
Unknown
So that was his role. He was just making sure that all of the players understood that they had a shared and common goal, common vision. But the empowerment to, you know, even enable MJ to get on the plane and go and get Rodman demonstrates that it's been delegated. You know, we were talking about that idea earlier, this concept of sharing ownership and therefore, you know, understanding that if MJ has this passion for the game, passion for the team, passion for success as well as passion for me, I'm therefore going to think hard about myself and I'm going to question, well, am I demonstrating the same behavior?
00:31:44:23 - 00:32:10:10
Unknown
Am I behaving in the same way? Because I should be? If my team are doing that for me, I owe it to them as well. What a perfect demonstration of being a leader, i.e. Phil in a position of power, but actually enabling and giving ownership power to all of the players to kind of make those decisions for themselves to go out and help one another get on the ladder if they need, you know, a leg up.
00:32:10:13 - 00:32:29:25
Unknown
That to me is such a wonderful idea of a team. You know, watching the last dance as you were just breaking down for me, the the joy and the magic of it really comes through when you see the team playing as a team. They know where each other are. They can almost read each other's minds and we'll come on to the idea of that in a minute.
00:32:30:01 - 00:32:59:23
Unknown
But the concept and the shared experience again, of playing the game together, seeing how well they are glued together, I think speaks to that passion. You know, there is no ego. It's not MJ saying, I'm not going to get Dennis. No, no, no. I'm going to go and get him because he's part of my team. It's such a different break that I think a lot of us maybe were expecting from an individual who's so well known in such a powerful role to actually get into that position and go out and support the team.
00:33:00:02 - 00:33:43:17
Unknown
I think it's it's a wonderful demonstration of that ego being benched. And think about it like scientifically, if you have ten people equally contributing as leaders, there's a lot more redundancy and backup in that than just having one godlike figure because, you know, we see so many times and it reminds me of this idea that they say the greatest leaders and this is good to great Jim Collins thinking here is that when a leader wraps up at a company and the company goes even better under the next generation, that is the greatest leadership from the guy or the girl that left is that they built assistant under them.
00:33:43:17 - 00:34:20:02
Unknown
That flourished even more when they left versus what we see a lot is when these dictatorial leaders go right, the company and we've seen this in history, how many leaders have we seen that when they leave? I mean, hello, these strong dictator tyrant like leaders, what invariably happens to empires built on those personalities? They crumble. Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin.
00:34:20:09 - 00:34:45:14
Unknown
I mean, the list just goes on and on when there's no one to pick up the leadership other than the one central figure, it's it's a non distributed form of leadership. It's essential breaking point, a single point of failure. So like, why not lighten the load? I mean, if I was if I was the coach in MJ, flew in, got Jordan and brought him back, I would be like, great, That just saved me a ton.
00:34:45:16 - 00:35:08:06
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, right. Like that. It just sounds like magical. Yeah, I think it's actually an interesting build on what we learned from Abby Wambach. You know, the idea of leading from the bench. I think actually this is one step further. This is enabling the whole team to flourish as leaders themselves. If you are on the bench, that's okay.
00:35:08:06 - 00:35:30:22
Unknown
You can still lead from it. But actually empowering the rest of the team to play in that role as well is a great demonstration of if everybody has the same capabilities, the same confidence, the same empowerment, same ability to drive each other, you know, that passion. You can go out and do great things as a team because you can inherently rely on each other because you are all equal.
00:35:30:24 - 00:36:03:20
Unknown
There is no hierarchy of power. Yes. And if you watch the last dance, you will know that there is a certain game and a certain player who Michael gives a crucial shot to to turn their fortunes in this season. And that player was a young three point shooter, Coach Steve Kerr. And he made the shot and he turned the tables you know, usually Jordan would have taken the shot, but he let Steve Kerr take the shot.
00:36:03:20 - 00:36:24:18
Unknown
And that's what got them. The sixth ring. And the great news for you, our listeners, our viewers, our members, is that next week's show is going to be on Steve Kerr, the player in the coach, the only man who comes close to rivaling Phil Jackson as a coach. We're going to study him to just to keep our last dance theme going.
00:36:24:19 - 00:36:47:18
Unknown
Mac. Well, just because I think as we've demonstrated throughout the whole series, actually, Mike, on sports and sports mindset, there are so many crossovers and so much inspiration to learn from sports stars, whether they're players and or coaches, you know, like feel like Steve being able to see them from both sides of the coin, I think is going to be really interesting for us.
00:36:47:24 - 00:37:07:12
Unknown
So strap in Moonshots listeners, we've got an action packed show coming up after this one as well, and I want you to think about it like this. Mark Now, that we've let go of the ego. We're ready to kind of enjoy this moment where we can come together as a team and to come together as one. And I think we've got quite the clip for that.
00:37:07:14 - 00:37:28:24
Unknown
Yeah, this is a big idea. And another one of Phil's 11 principles, again, broken down by coaches of culture. He's going to help us a little bit understand the idea of collaboration, real time decision making, as well as Phil's terminology of one breath, one mind. Phil believe the team needs to think as one player. It must be able to practice free of restriction so they can express themselves.
00:37:29:00 - 00:37:54:10
Unknown
This ties into Phil's third principle of letting players decide their own destiny. Phil says players often have to make split second decisions under enormous pressure. If you place too many restrictions on players, they'll spend an inordinate amount of time trying to buck the system. Like all of us, they need a certain degree of structure in their lives, but they also require enough latitude to express themselves creatively.
00:37:54:12 - 00:38:14:16
Unknown
This was the key to beating many of the tough rivals the Bulls and the Lakers faced. Phil believed good teams use their enemies as fuel to strive harder. Go further. On a strange level, he said. Good teams see their enemies as a gift because they help bring the best out of you. Enemies give us the opportunity to better ourselves.
00:38:14:18 - 00:38:24:06
Unknown
While We may not typically think of people in our lives as enemies. You can see how this perspective applies to any person in your life who gives you difficulty.
00:38:24:08 - 00:39:01:08
Unknown
my gosh. I would say this is some of the highest order of leadership thinking with ever come to in the podcast, Mac, where you can rise above this situation and say that my enemy or my competitor in work in sport is a gift because it challenges me to be better. To be honest, if you're thinking about it, it's a it's insanely respectful to your competition because you say, I'm not going to like, talk you down.
00:39:01:11 - 00:39:26:04
Unknown
I'm going to talk you up because not only are you good. You challenge me to be great. Thank you for that opportunity and taking it upon yourself to use that as a bar to go higher than some rather than talking them down, you're actually talking them up. So much of today's popular culture in sport is people talking trash.
00:39:26:06 - 00:39:47:03
Unknown
And what you see is you're not going there. He is talking things up to use competitors as fuel for the fire. And we know MJ did that. But the key thing here, he is saying this is a gift because this is a means by which you can make yourself better. Then what? Otherwise you may have been like, Think about it.
00:39:47:05 - 00:40:13:22
Unknown
It's where you get that last burst of energy where normally you may have given up on the sports field or in the office, but you know that you're in a competitive situation. You must find something extra. You got to be. GOGGINS like, right? Yes, exactly. He's saying it is, isn't it? Embrace that, Respect that. And that's what I love about sports, where competitors respect each other and respect the referee.
00:40:13:24 - 00:40:56:16
Unknown
It drives me so crazy where you see players blaming the referee for a decision. And we always know and I've said this many times, that the best players and the best coaches say if a decision decide the game, then it's on us for letting it get that close. Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right. It is a wonderful, again, demonstration of not only acceptance, ownership of behaviors, of patterns of movements on the court, but also the idea of respecting your competition and thinking of obstacles being the way you know, this is a very stoic approach that I think Phil was bringing out.
00:40:56:16 - 00:41:27:20
Unknown
You know, Ron Holiday was probably in the in the stand, you know, cheering Phil on because he was able to teach those players, you know, embrace those difficulties, see them as times to either leap over or grow from again. That's right in the Goggins mindset space that if you're not growing your static, if you're not being challenged, I'd argue that you're being static, you know, being pushed to grow additional resilience, additional muscles, additional ways of thinking creatively and strategically to get out of it.
00:41:27:22 - 00:41:46:20
Unknown
You know, as we heard in that clip, all of the players are going to be at some point in a position where they need to deliver under the limelight. They've got the ball. Millions of people are watching. It's going to be on the history books or documentaries on Netflix maybe. So the pressure is somewhat insurmountable, you know, probably once in a lifetime for a lot of people.
00:41:46:22 - 00:42:07:05
Unknown
But the fact that they can shift their mindset, see that as an opportunity to bring out the best of them, like you was saying, dig out that, you know, in a few, you know, fire to go out and deliver I think is a sentiment and I think it's fantastically inspirational, actually, but so do I. And I think this is where sports has so much to offer us.
00:42:07:07 - 00:42:30:13
Unknown
And I want you to think of the platform that we're building together right now. We've benched the ego. It's not about me, not the team. You've come into the power of one breath, one mind. We are together. What happens is that rare moment, the thing that we know was discovered by Mihai. She sent me high ride the flow state.
00:42:30:15 - 00:42:53:01
Unknown
And this is the last thought that we have to share with our viewers, our listeners and our members. And this is really where we ascend to the highest order of the solar success, wouldn't you think, Mark? Yeah, I think, Mike, let's let Phil tell us even further about this idea of diving into this concept of one mind and getting into the idea of flow.
00:42:53:03 - 00:43:18:03
Unknown
We have a system of basketball let's called the sideline Triangle, had a number of names, triple post up there. And so there are a number of names that went along with it. But inside of that was a collective mindset that we called using the offense to read the defense and then at the moment of truth, to make the appropriate action.
00:43:18:05 - 00:44:01:01
Unknown
And Jorge tapped into that moment of truth as part of that experience that we have in meditation, which is to be available at the moment of truth. Yeah, and that's being here now and which is such an important point. So there's a number of things that were going on with our players at this time. Various players could get attached to their feelings, could get attached to a bat call, could get attached to some fan that was in the stand that was harassing them to get attached to their family, where someone was interfering with their family's presence while they were playing basketball.
00:44:01:01 - 00:44:28:24
Unknown
It could distract them, you know? So those distress actions could multiply during the course of a game. And so we talked about this moment of truth and how to get to this moment of truth and stay in the flow. And that's kind of what we learned from these players was how do we stay there, release that moment that distract for and get back into the present.
00:44:29:00 - 00:45:11:10
Unknown
And so finding these players ability to do that I think had a lot to do with the fact that George tried a number of methods. We tried a little things like a rubber band on the wrist, which is, you know, an ADHD type of thing, you know, snap that rubber band, take a breath that we started to get into this idea, one breath, one mind, which became the next ability, is as a group, we're going to sit and we're going to extend this period of thought dropping and just following our breath till we feel like we're one breath, one mind as a group.
00:45:11:12 - 00:45:43:03
Unknown
And then when we get on the basketball court, we're going to try and extend that until we eventually became a team that was playing for themselves, for their own entertainment, for their own hierarchy of needs or of approval. It wasn't about the opponent anymore, was about how to do this the right way. And we called it, you know, appeasing the basketball gods, playing the game the way the way it should be played on Mark.
00:45:43:08 - 00:46:09:04
Unknown
It's almost like, you know, if you hadn't have told me that was Phil, you could have said it was Dan Millman, author of The Peaceful Warrior. You could have told me it was Eckhart Tolle. The power of now may be, I mean, even crazy. It's almost as spiritual as the Dalai Lama. Like who thought you could get that from running around a wooden court with a leather basketball that somehow you isn't amazing?
00:46:09:04 - 00:46:41:01
Unknown
You know, again, this what feels talking about it is a problem and challenge that a lot of us experience. You know, the idea of distractions. I don't mean distractions, you know, emails and notifications. I mean, you know, big fundamental discomfort, you know, feeling nervous about something anxious about something. And Phil, as we've dug into on the show before, Mike, the idea of meditation, reflection techniques to stay present, stay in that moment as you've already touched upon, you know, Eckhart Tolle, for example.
00:46:41:03 - 00:47:12:24
Unknown
Isn't it interesting and fascinating to see that those techniques that we've talked about were the type of techniques that somebody like Phil Jackson would utilize with an award winning, record breaking NBA team. You know, totally different industry, totally different set of muscles, skills, resilience, etc.. But the truth is, it's so similar and it's all down to being present, being in that moment and trying your hardest to be focused and just do your best work is so true.
00:47:13:00 - 00:47:33:16
Unknown
So true. I mean, we could almost do a whole show on that last. I'm like holding myself back here because I feel like we're going through our mindfulness series. And if you are interested in some of those topics on how to bring that into your work life, head over to Moonshot Studio and check out, you know, Eckhart Tolle.
00:47:33:16 - 00:48:00:08
Unknown
We did a mindfulness Masters Series, so you can check that up as well. There's a ton there. So Mark, we went from everything from like realizing that it's a team sport to flow state. I mean, that's a huge range. What's your homework assignment from all of that? This one's a tricky one because there's five very interesting, unique clips there, all of which I think taught us something totally different.
00:48:00:08 - 00:48:28:03
Unknown
Actually. I think, Mike, for me, the idea of one breath, one mind, he's going to stand out. Sammy Absolutely the same. You know, that that collaboration, that single minded vision and goal for a team as well as the ability to just feel relaxed when you know that everybody else is on the same page is, is something that we touched upon in our Master series on managing people, for example.
00:48:28:05 - 00:48:48:19
Unknown
But it's it's a topic that, you know, again, we could make a whole nother show on. So for me, my one breath one mind collaboration, that's that's perfect for me. What about you? What are you taking away as homework from Phil Jackson today? I'm totally with you. I'm one breath my mind. I mean, it shows you just this.
00:48:48:19 - 00:49:09:18
Unknown
If you choose to perceive leadership narrowly as making sure we deliver something at 5 p.m. today, that's a choice. Or if you see it as opening people's view up to maybe, Hey, it's not about you, it's about the team or Hey, it's not about the team, it's about cohesion it's about one breath, one mind, it's about flows, state.
00:49:09:18 - 00:49:30:04
Unknown
I mean, that means I feel like I've got a lifetime of work to study and understand how to do this. And the good thing. We have the show to do that on, right? We do. Exactly. And again, thank you to our members for joining us. Week in, week out, year upon year upon year. You're learning out loud with us.
00:49:30:06 - 00:49:49:10
Unknown
Well, thank you to them and thank you to you, Mat, because we could not be doing this if it wasn't for your contribution. So thank you to you. Thank you to our listeners, to our viewers and our members to here today on show 244, the second last in settlement of our sports series where we studied Phil Jackson and the 11 rings.
00:49:49:12 - 00:50:12:01
Unknown
He won the NBA championship as a player and then he did it a ton with the Chicago Bulls, a ton with the L.A. Lakers so we can learn from him. And it started by how he made Michael Jordan see that it was team sport. We learned about passion, obsession, how to bench the ego, how to come together as one, and how to stay in that flow state.
00:50:12:03 - 00:50:28:10
Unknown
All of these are great on the sports field, in the office or at home or anywhere in between, because really, life is about being the best version of yourself. Life is a team sport and you can learn out loud together with us here on the Moonshots podcast, that's a wrap.