Bricks to Bytes: A Journey in Architecture and Entrepreneurship

Show Notes

Today we sit down with Nicholas Stockley, a man of many architectural hats. 

Nicholas, the founder and CEO of Frontload, co-founder of RESI, and founder of Design Squared Architects, has truly done it all! From practicing in the field to starting his own architectural firms, he has seen every corner of the architectural world and has plenty of wisdom to share. 

In this episode, we'll be tapping into Nicholas' unique experience to explore various facets of architecture. Wondering about the career path, training, and the scalability of the industry? Or maybe you're interested in learning about the journey from practice to founding a start-up? 

Nicholas' expertise from his diverse roles will guide us through the highs and lows, the challenges and triumphs, and the ins and outs of the architectural realm. 

📐 The Architecture Social is an online platform packed with content to help you find new jobs, stand out from the crowd and take your career in Architecture to the next level

💻 Find out more at https://www.architecturesocial.com

Creators & Guests

Host

Stephen Drew

Hello! I’m Stephen Drew, Founder of the Architecture Social—an online community and resource hub dedicated to helping professionals in Architecture, Design, Development, and Real Estate advance their careers. I’m here to connect you with insights, tools, and opportunities that lead to meaningful growth, whether you’re just starting out or ready to take that next big step.

What is Architecture Social?

Curated content, insights and opportunities designed to elevate careers and strengthen teams in Architecture and Design.

Bricks to Bytes: A Journey in Architecture and Entrepreneurship

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[00:00:00]

Stephen Drew: Rev model. No, nah. Don't do any more work. Now it's one o'clock. Sneak away from the boss. Pop outside. Get on the stairwell wherever you are. Blast out wifi. This will be good if you thought about setting up a business this guest has done free. I dunno how he's still going. Really? I've got one that's hard enough as it is anyways, 20 seconds. Hello everyone and welcome to this livestream special. I'm so excited you are here and I have a fantastic guest. So yeah, bid off whatever you're [00:01:00] doing 'cause I'm gonna steal your attention for the next 45 minutes. If you are working in an Architecture practice and you thought about setting your own company up, let me tell you, it might be a bit more different than you think, but equally, this guest as well as that has an unconventional view of Architecture.

I share as well On that note, please welcome to Fantastic Nicholas Stockley. How are you, Nick? Are you okay?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I'm very well. Thank you. Thank round of applause, please.

Stephen Drew: The virtual round of applause in the audience. Now, you, everyone in the audience, you've got full, you have permission to ask Nick whatever you want. I will warn you though, Nick has a very feisty mute button, which will blast your eardrums. So if it's anything rude he can blast you off the stage.

But Nicholas, I digress. Please tell me a little bit about yourself in case anyone in the audience hasn't met you yet.

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, no problem. Hello everyone. And obviously thanks for the intro, Steven. Yeah, I think I think obviously we'll talk about this in more detail, but I've been [00:02:00] in the Architectural space for many years, so I'm creeping up to 40, even though I look 30. Oh now So that's probably all the hard work of running businesses.

But basically I, I kind of high level less score at 16 went through an apprenticeship scheme. So I'm gonna tell you a bit more about my kind of journey into practice what I learned and then moving into university how I funded that. How my parents ba basically gave me an ultimatum around how they're gonna support me financially and making me cut the lawn to earn some pennies to pay for everything.

And then went to Australia, came back set my own practice set, but 23. So very young, in, in this industry. But how did I do that? What gave me the knowledge? Running the organization for eight years as md. Growing the team for about 16 of us. Still own the business. It's got a great brand and reputation.

And moving then into the tech space with Resi, the biggest Architectural platform in the uk. Big investment from BC's. And then my most recent business launch is a [00:03:00] company called Front Load. So yeah, lots of interest in more. Deeper topics we can cover off there. And now I'm start here with Steven talking about it all to everyone and go from there.

Stephen Drew: If you're stuck here with me, it definitely has gone downhill. It was looking so, so promising. It was all looking promising then, exactly. Now, I was also given an ultimatum by my dad, who's been very supportive of my career, and I also worked part-time in the Architecture school in Waitrose stacking the shelves because unfortunately, that those, that tuition wasn't gonna pay itself.

My dad had a humble job from Welsh roots. So you mentioned at the starting point, so maybe we can. Weave it back to the start. And also then I would love to know about your first company and you can let me know which one that is. I suspect I know which one it is, but wind me back to the start, Nick. So what was it like studying when you studied?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, no. Yeah, definitely. I think when I was 15, 16, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I was brought up in a family that had their own businesses anyway, so I was very much focused on that. [00:04:00] And obviously I wanted to sort to earn some money so I could get down the local purple, get myself some Nike Max or whatever it was back in the day, or CAPA trousers I think we used to get.

So basically I wanted to leave school last minute. I was meant to see my levels and I said to my mom and dad, look, I'm not going back to school. And I was playing a bit of sport and wanted to go on my own and earn a pound, so to speak. So tip, my old man, very traditional said, no chance you're going back.

I said, no, I'm not. So obviously family discussions went on. My mum became very supportive and basically took me down the job center and said let's go and find you a job. I think I got quite far in a car garage. I was gonna become a mechanic. I didn't really know what I was doing, but then in the local paper, I think it's called the Gloucester Kinda Citizen or whatever it's called, there was a job that said Train the Architectural technologist.

So I didn't even know what Architecture was. I but the long words Drew me to it. So I went for an interview a company called Roberts Gardner in, in Gloucester chartered architects and surveyors. My kind of [00:05:00] interviewee was a guy called Wayne Organ. I think he's a director and associate now at that company.

They've merged with a big outfit and he was heavily into sports and various things, so I got on with him. I thought, oh, I'll give that a go. I went in there and basically just basically work with them as a trainee. So an apprentice basically in, in the sector. So what I had was day release at college Goss Cat, o n c and construction.

Did two years, and then H N C and construction. That's my third and fourth year. But I was working all the time and learning about, Architecture CAD drawings, planning And basically just evolved from there really. And I wanted to earn a bit of extra cash. Wasn't paid very well to be honest way it goes in apprenticeships that you learn on the job.

So I did a few extensions on the side for a couple of the kind of more senior people there, wanted to earn a bit of side cash, so I just picked up on it really. And then basically evolved over five years there. And learned a lot and really enjoyed it. And then started to think about my degree.

So that's when the boss's son, a guy called Joe, said [00:06:00] to me, look, get to uni. It's great. Pound a pint. Don't worry about the educational system. So I thought, oh, that sounds good. Gonna

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas Stockley: and then off, and then off. I went to Leicester School of Architecture. I. Studied there. Again, I had to pay for everything, so I worked for George Wimpy, big house builders on the side.

Had to walk there and study. And then basically got my degree in Architecture. And that was the kind of first step in my journey into the Architectural space really.

Stephen Drew: Well done. There you go. So pound a pint. Those days have definitely gone Nick as well, especially even in Wales where I grew up. Now you go back and it's creeping up to London prices. So I hear you. It's very interesting because I know we're gonna talk about your businesses, but just on this point, you, you did actually, you've done these apprenticeships, you fell into the profession accidentally before going to uni. Whereas I think a lot of people, they do, they part one through uni, they, they don't see the the Architecture [00:07:00] practice or the studio. I actually was on the course and I'll be honest, I did that as well, whereas we had one.

Student on the course who was working the spare time and he could do actual technical drawings and all

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Drew: used to look at him like a wizard. Oh my God, what are you doing? But but what's your opinion on that now then? Do you think it's advantageous to work in the industry?

Before studying, then having, looking back.

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I think there's a, there's different avenues out there really. I've got obviously various businesses and employees and staff, and I try and coach and be a mentor, but also everyone has an entitlement to an opinion. Or different circumstances or different aspirations. My drive was to stand out from the crowd.

It's a very, for me from a an Architectural perspective, it's a very competitive sector UK international students. There's a hell of a lot of education time required doctors, lawyers at that same kind of level. So we're expected to be. [00:08:00] Super smart or coherent and organized, but the money in it is tough.

So I think my advice to a lot of people is you need to map out where you want to go and I suppose try and be quite mature about what your goals are because life passes you by very quickly. And we're not blessed in this sector. We're earning big money. However, If you can look at Architecture as a sector where you can actually contribute to the industry or contribute to a practice and via contribution, what you'll find as practices need to make money to operate.

And if you are good and productive and help with actual delivery, you'll learn a lot more money than you will just by being a well educated. Part one or part two grad who's going into practice based on the EDU educational system. You don't learn a lot about what's actually required to deliver Architecture and make the business money.

And that's probably why the sector is underpaid or the staff are undervalued. The reality of it is [00:09:00] it's a tough sector for any Architectural practice to run. I think if you look at. The chartered Architectural practices in the UK is probably, I think around two or 3% actually are beyond two employees.

That shows how tougher is. So I think, yeah, what I learned there or what enabled me to get ahead of the curve is by learning. In Practice one obviously helped me set my business up, but from an employment perspective, I was earning good money quite quickly because I was. Productive and help with the delivery side of things.

So anyone out there looking at full-time education versus, opportunities to work or potentially you can do day release, whatever's available. I know I talked to you about the RIBA diploma that's coming, that's come out in terms of working in industry whilst studying. I think look at it from that perspective, but also think 10 years ahead and think how can you stand out and differentiate yourself.

Between someone else to be more attractive from an employment or an employer perspective. And that's what definitely helped [00:10:00] me.

Stephen Drew: Well said. It's it's fascinating now, I will be honest. So the Architecture Social is technically my third business. And the first one I made a lot of mistakes. The second one, even more mistakes. Architecture Social. We'll find out if it's a mistake or not to be continued. But, so there was some point then Nicholas, when you mentioned that you were working for a few different companies and stuff.

You've had that bright idea then that I'm gonna set up a business. Can you tell me about. Your first company then

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, definitely. I think so what happened when I was I finished my degree I went to Australia just went out there and then obviously saved up some money and that went probably within about four weeks of being there when it was meant to last me three months. So I had two options, fly back or stay out there and get a job.

So I was in Sydney, got a job. I went for a recruitment company company called I think it's called Hayes or something back then. And they basically got me a job in in Sydney, a company called Project. And they were working with a big organization. They just [00:11:00] won a competition. I was quite, I was young, I was 20, 24 probably then.

But again, because I'd had, I dunno, about 24, 8 years on my CV. Even though I was young, the eight years allowed me to communicate at a level. I actually went in there to oversee three more, older people, which they're more senior. Set up all their MicroStation. I was working on the first Hong Kong investment in Australia, about 900 million, develop $9 million development.

I didn't run it. I was in the project team, but at a young age, I was very exposed to great opportunities. But the eight years prior to that, Allowed me to be probably where a 30 year old would've been. So obviously I was always focused and you have to take the initiative and be eager and be driven and wanna succeed and look five years ahead.

And it's very hard to do when you're young. And sometimes it happens more organically, but you need to, yeah, I think in this industry, stand out from the crowd. And when I'm employing people I'm certainly looking at their [00:12:00] experience over education for sure. Because it, it makes a positive impact and they can earn more money and the business operates more successfully.

It's more enjoyable, less management, less training, lots of things like that. So I went out there about six months in. Want to, I come back and do my part too. Er, school of Architecture again. So I applied got offered the placement. And when I was out there I was on Think Gumtree or something and there was an interior designer in Southeast London, a place called Dulwich 15 pound an hour.

We need plans, draw net for extensions and residential development. So I thought, oh, that sounds interesting. Dropped them a message. And then basically, Thought to myself when I come back to the UK I'll go and meet them and I'll do my part two. So again, I was already thinking money industry, paying for my part two, and I was gonna do my part two part-time.

So Mo got myself a flat backup in Lester. Met this interior design company. Did a couple of projects started to go well, and then they started introducing me to homeowners in in, in East [00:13:00] Doch. And then I started pitching for business myself as a freelancer, started winning projects and that started to take off.

So again I suppose I bit, the bullet dropped out of my part two thought, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna employ architects and I'm gonna build my brand. And that's when I set up design Squared. In 2008 primarily coming into London twice a week, meeting clients and then delivering services. The way I approached it was low cost, build my brand, get people referring me.

And now Design Square is. Been in, been around 15 years and we're working on high-end boutique residential projects. I've got a nice team structure. We're very well established. We don't advertise. We work on word of mouth. So I suppose that initial approach to I. Yeah, building out my reputation using things like cost just to pay enough for my rent is was, was strategic without even me realizing it was strategic.

I suppose in [00:14:00] essence, I wasn't at that level to think this is smart. It's naturally did it, and I suppose that's kind of part of my natural makeup I suppose.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, fair enough. I Dulwich is a fancy part of town now, Nick, because I'm still in Lewisham, and let me tell you, it's hard to get out of Lewisham and Lewisham I've been in has been up and coming for 10 years, and you won't get these kind of projects you've got here in Lewisham very much. I tell you.

They too. They too not. You could build anything in. No, let me tell you. I digress though. I think it's very interesting. And so design squared, I'm sure that you've learned, you learned a lot during that then was what was the, maybe some of the challenges of getting it off the ground, Nick, did you feel that university equipped for the equipped you for that or was it actually the experiences that you got, you learned in the office, which really helped you set up this company from nothing then?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I think if I'm gonna be blunt, And I'll give a kind of a diverse opinion on this, if I'm gonna be blunt. I think the educational system gives me nothing to contribute [00:15:00] to me growing this business and also growing my other businesses. But then I think if you think more holistically about it, maybe, or perhaps there's some psychological aspects in there that enabled me to actually, I know, be creative or establish, I know.

Relationships with clients and how to win new business and whatnot. Because I think in terms of the educational system, when I was at, I probably had a different perspective because when I went into university, I was already six years in, five years in, in terms of practice experience. So could I draw, could I use cad?

Could I understand buildings? Yeah, I could. So I sailed through it. I I didn't have to. I could just, Do what I needed to do, but then I was learning a lot about the history of Architecture and flying buttresses and gothic arches. Like I get it all, but none of that's helped me in practice because in reality, you're not gonna go into industry working directly for a client.

In your [00:16:00] early twenties, or even probably late twenties, because the directors, the associates will be that level. So you are more project support, you're more designing. So you're learning a lot about things that never get brought into practice. And to be honest, have I worked on his, if I went, wanted to go into a historic or a heritage kind of practice, specialized in historic buildings, then the history of Architectural would've been relevant.

But it wasn't for me. So I think the problem with the. The educational system for me is that I feel students should have an opportunity to understand the broader side of Architecture, and then maybe in year two go into practice, or maybe at year two or year three have an opportunity to become more specialist. So if they love historic buildings, learn about history of Architecture, learn about English, heritage listed buildings, the process around it. Become a specialist at it. If you love commercial, learn about commercial. If you love retail, learn about retail. If you love industrial, because obviously you don't not expect to know, but the problem with this industry, [00:17:00] if someone said to me, Nick, can you design my skyscraper in Canary Wharf?

I would say, no, and you shouldn't be using me for it. The problem is in the industry, everyone thinks chartered architects should be able to do everything that's needed. No, it's all about the nooks and crannies of it. So I specialize in residential design. I know everything about the party wall Act, structure, engineering, drainage, gutter details, trespassing, construction, contract administration, specific to what I do.

And I think Architecture, it doesn't mold you into the area of specialism, which again is why I think when you go into industry, you can be quite not, you are quite exposed to what you're gonna be going into.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah. It's it is true. And even while our businesses are not the same, I think sometimes there is a power in saying no. And especially at the start of when you're setting something up. There is the temptation to say yes to everything isn't there. But I. On the theme of you setting up a company, we had a quick question come in from the audience.

And yes, in the audience you can ask any question as long as it's not rude [00:18:00] or anything. 'cause you'll get blasted by Nick's button, which we play at the end. Just don't wanna lose anyone just yet. Mohamed says quick question for Nick. How were you able to set up a design practice without part three?

So first of all, Nick, is it true that you set up your company without your part three and in your experience. Is it any different really, apart from you? I guess you can't call yourself an Architect if you haven't get your part free, but you can. You can run a business, isn't it? What's your views on all that then?

For Mohammed?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, no, really good question, Mohammed. And I think the answer to that is that the start of it, I could, and I still can't, I'm not an Architect, I employ architects. So in terms of my initial starting point, I made it very clear that I'm an Architectural technician and I provide Architectural services.

I. Which you're allowed to do under the A R B RIBA code of Conduct. And that's what I did, and that's what I do after a period of time as the business grew and I wanted to grew and I wanted to become accredited with a r b, there's legislation around directors and their [00:19:00] qualifications within the practice.

So I employ I think it's about six a r b RIBA architects that run my organization from a. Architectural accreditation perspective. So in terms of Mohammed, if you wanted to set your own business up, you can't call yourself an Architect until you are chartered qualified and accredited. However, you can provide Architectural services that's the way you overcome it.

And then in time, you need to look at your business structure, who you hire, who your directors are, and then you can call yourself an Architectural practice.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, very true.

Nicholas Stockley: And I think and I think just on that to add is clients used to always ask me, they don't anymore because obviously Design Squared is an Architectural company and you just need to be transparent with them.

But also, I throw it out there, I'm not a chartered Architect, but I'm better, I think I'll be better than 99% of chartered residential Architectural architects in the uk. Just a bit of banter, but

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas Stockley: it's about experience.[00:20:00]

Stephen Drew: Yeah, shots fired. I'll give it to you. I'll give it to you though. They're nice buildings and it's all about the team. There's no I in team, but there are a few architects, so a r b, we're a compliant. I joke, but it is very cool. Now Nick, as if it's ha if I'm interested as well 'cause along your journey and we're gonna get to your current business front load, but I think it's important to talk about re because I.

From what I've known in the industry, I thought it was quite a radical way of of just a different way of offering the services, but also very relevant and I can see the mass appeal to it as well. So first of all, if someone's not familiar with resi, do you wanna explain your journey in that and the of that business?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, no, definitely. I think so I think it all started off, so Alex De Pledge was one of our design square clients. And she had founded a company called Hassell, a tech company in the cleaning sector. And she, they basically got invested in and then they got bought out, I think it's 50 million [00:21:00] euros from a German.

Outfit basically. So as she was one of my clients she said to me, kinda architecture's a bit backward, isn't it? Because it's very much like email, p d f, let's have a, let's have a call. Let's print out the drawings, let's talk about it over a coffee on a dining table. And she's it's very 1970s obviously.

She'd been in the tech space. So her head is always looking at automation, semi-automation, technology advances in the sector. And I think we all know, even now, it's still quite old school. There's a lot going on in the space with AI and various other things that are. That are coming in. But at the end of the day, an a an Architect is, needs to design a building.

And no machine can do that because of the personal relationship with the client. And that's my opinion on it. There's a lot of tools out there that are quite slick in terms of, how they can pull around the plan and give you some automatic layouts or visual representation. There's some great stuff.

What Alex said is let's give it a go. So I think we put 2000 pounds in each. We all agreed that we'll give it six months, [00:22:00] see if we can get something going. It's a company called Build Path to begin with. And what we basically bought to market is a a basically a concept package for homeowners for basically zero pounds to look at what could be done to their house.

Can we get people interested in this? Are people interested in talking to us? So in essence, trying to take over the homeowner space. So we're just call calling out speaking to people. Then we move that into, we can do you a concept package for 250 quid. And obviously we're good. We know our stuff.

So this output was very much some like little three d massing studies an overview of planning policy precedent, what could be done, I suppose in essence what development potential was there out there. And then, so after about two months we had our first payment come in. Jaws Coleman who was the other?

Co-founder the other co-founder of this guy called Richard, who's worked with me at Design Square. So we bought the Architecture they bought the tech and I suppose the network and their reputation in in, in the city, I suppose in London with VCs. And so [00:23:00] George built all the technology behind it.

So there's obviously the payment processes, the dashboard, we're starting to build all this out. Got our first payment in and then I think we just basically built a bit more of an investor deck around it, around the opportunities. It's a big space. It's worth a hell of a lot of money in terms of, revenue as a nation.

But there's not a go-to, there's never a go-to brand and I think, to be honest, a citizen and resi is the biggest out there. And so it's basically on the national scale. How do we give. Homeowners, the education, the understanding of what can be done and what is your kind of go-to brand? So we got some angel investments.

So angel investment guys is where individuals believe in the business. Obviously Alex and George were well connected and the strong reputation, so that was very easy to raise. I think it was the first million quid we got from that. And we use that to hire our first sort of 30 employees. It's weren't very aggressive, but all of a sudden we're doing 10 grand a month revenue, 20 grand a month revenue.

So it started to filtrate and scale. So it showed demand and obviously we're [00:24:00] always evolving and had to have a tech team and the HR department and all of the fun things about running their business. And then an American and German VC's got wind of it. So they're super interested. They've just had a pot of money to invest in, in, in the European market.

So we went for a really, they're great by the way as well, so we always had control of the business under our shareholder agreement. 'cause VCs usually take control. But because we were growing so aggressively and it was such an interesting proposition and concept, we allow, we retained control and we raised multiple millions in terms of investment and grew the organization to about 150 of us.

About five mil rev. So big growth, no profit, burning the hell out of their cash. But they don't care as long as there's growth. So we did that and I was heavily involved in Architecture. I was heavily involved in working with the engineers around the platform, the marketplace. How do we streamline delivery?

How do we give clients a good customer experience? [00:25:00] How do we allow them to understand like who else they need? Who do we partner with? All of that. So we basically built that over basically a four year period. And obviously then Covid kicked in,

Stephen Drew: Ah, of course.

Nicholas Stockley: so I'm gonna pause there. Anything on that? Steven, before I tell you about what happened next?

Stephen Drew: I think it's brilliant. What, but the bit that I love about it is because I do think you touched upon earlier, the traditional way of Architecture is, that you spend hours and years doing dard and all this romantic notion. Whereas what I love about. The way that resi was approached, it is, like you say, looking at it backwards.

It's forgetting the romantic notion. It's about doing a good job for people that, it's the general public. In a different way. So it's, I think it's quite an interesting bit, solution to a problem mass market. So that's what I'd like to add. I think it's it was quite interesting, but I have no idea what you're gonna say in C O V I D and all that stuff.

Go on then the Philippines.

Nicholas Stockley: [00:26:00] Yeah. I think just to take one quick step back around what you've just said there. I think obviously everyone would generally think I'll just use a local Architect. They come and meet me. Yeah. Yes, that is available. Of course, it's, but the problem you get is that quite often people don't know.

Who to use, where to go to, what should I be paying, what can I do before they start spending loads of money on something that might be a lost course. And unfortunately, this sector is rife with builders that can call themselves builders overnight. It's rife because it's your home. It's your life.

It's rife because you're putting 50 grand, a hundred grand, 200 grand into this property, and if you get it wrong, it can affect your whole life. But so people get really, confused around what can be done, where do I start, who do I go to? So what resi focused on there is the investment for free around educating.

Stephen Drew: Right.

Nicholas Stockley: Communicating it to them, and obviously off the back of that, then people start saying can you help me? What are your costs? But the focus, we're [00:27:00] doubling down on the blogs the presentations, the podcasts, and the different kind of sources of kind of dialogue, communication, the documentation we produce just to educate homeowners so everyone knew from a starting point.

There is the same starting point for every project, but there's different strategies around, I dunno, return on investment. When do I start? What's my two year plan, my five year plan PD writes article four, directions, planning policy, prior approval, permitted development. There's so many things in that, and quite often 90% of the population wouldn't even have a Scooby-Doo.

What after that means we do, and that's what resi was about to begin with.

Stephen Drew: Nice. I think resi would've done well in the village I was from in Ponto D in Swansea, because next to my parents' house, there would be like that awful extension with breeze blocks and the bloody, the pavement was chipping away. And, and you'd be like, who did that for them?

And they'd be like, oh, don't ask some cowboys from Kamar then. You know what I [00:28:00] mean? So I get what you're saying 'cause you're just like, I was like, okay, I'm not qualified Architect myself. Okay, I did my part one and part two, but I know that is a bunch of rubbish. Do you know what I mean? So I can totally see the mass appeal.

And so I love it. And also it's very interesting what you're talking about, that tech world, it's a bit like Uber, isn't it? It would just, not making any money, but they're becoming the service in the space that people are, acclimatized to. So it's like a tech startup really. If anything, Nick, compared to the traditional notice of an Architectural practice. Is that how it felt?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, no, definitely the focus was tech and that was the investment based on technology. How could you scale it, how can you automate, how can you semi-automate? And then also what the demand is. The wider audience. Obviously nowadays it's got TV ads and I think it is the biggest applicant for homeowners in the uk.

But there's pains, and I think I'll just talk about Covid now and the pains of growing a business and the challenges that still. Occur and arise and should exist. I think [00:29:00] in terms of what I learned from Design Squared is it was quite organic and there's minimal risk. I was 23, 24, 25, 27. I didn't have kids, I didn't have a mortgage.

I didn't care as in, I didn't have that responsibility. As long as I could pay my bills and enjoy my life and have a couple holidays, that was what it was all about. So the earlier you start it, the more I suppose you, you remove the risk or you take away the conservativeness of setting up a business.

If you're in your thirties, forties then, and you've got responsibilities and you've got high costs, it's a, it's much tougher to do it. I didn't know that. I didn't think like that. But what I can pass on to others is if you're gonna do it as quick as you can and there'd be ups and downs and you'll learn along the way.

And when you are in your thirties, you'll be a hell of a lot better than when you would've been if you started off in your thirties. So Design Square, for example, I set up a lot of my clients were. Focusing on kitchen and glazing. So I set up a company called Cookhouse and a company called design Glazing Solutions because I wanted to allow [00:30:00] my clients to buy a kitchen from me.

Manager or I set showroom that put load of money into it. I set up a glazing company, so I had an import a product hardwood timber, sash windows. Perfect. But the problem I had then is that I couldn't focus on those three businesses. I had to hire other people. I lost control. I lost money. So I shut those two companies down.

So what I think I'm saying there is that if you've got an opportunity, you either have to hire, make enough money to hire people to run it for you, and set something up new and double down and focus on it. Or you'll end up compromising the business you've got and like day-to-day piecemeal and not actually executing opportunities that are available to you.

So my tip to people there is, yeah, focus on one and evolve it. Get yourself in a position where it can run self sufficiently and step away the step away properly. Not look at multiples or you'll be doing 5:00 AM till 10:00 PM every day of your life. And that's not what life's about really. You've gotta get that work-life balance at the end.

At the [00:31:00] end of it. You hard work, hard to begin with, but then you work smart.

Stephen Drew: Yeah, I think that's the G. That's the goal. That's what I tell myself right now when I'm cry, when I'm crying at 10 o'clock and just trying to send my H M R C fat returns and all this stuff. 'cause government, they won't wait around for me. But I digress. It's very interesting.

So because, I didn't know you had one or two other businesses, but it's, it is good lessons that you learn from that and and I appreciate you sharing it. So the thing is, which kind of brings us to the next step. So when we originally met, 'cause I pinged you an email on LinkedIn, hope for the best, and you kind kindly replied but I saw that I wasn't aware of these businesses before.

We learned that in the chat. And I've seen what you've, what's known as front load, which kind of has a little bit of design squared as a bit of all the resin there, and a few other things as well. So I'm gonna bring up front load, but can you tell me where that came all from and then what you're doing in that business, in your role now as c e o and director of him?

Nicholas Stockley: [00:32:00] Yeah, no, definitely. I think I think Covid was a reflection time. So I think just looking at how that impacted resi, it just went for a big VC investment round and obviously the. The nation shut down. So panic stations, furlough ev. Everyone heard about it. Everyone felt it and everyone experienced it.

And we had 150 employees with massive overheads. But so we were reactive rather than Keeping it calm. The industry didn't slow down. If anything, it got busier because then was at home thinking about, oh, I want, my house is terrible. What can I do? And so we doubled down on the marketing. The leads were coming through the roof.

We sent them home survey packs out because we still needed to deliver. So people doing their own surveys. So we were quite proactive. Reactive to begin with. Then we became proactive. 'cause we didn't know how long it was gonna go on for, but but the industry stayed rife. And now obviously since Covid we've got my work from home environments, we've got roof terraces and the council and government have adopted policies around that, so it's very beneficial.

But all of this [00:33:00] was, using technology. We had to, we couldn't go to the office, so we had to use the technology. So what Design Square gave me was how to run a business shows a lifestyle business. What Resi gave me was an understanding of how you grow a business. All of the elements around investment, how you grow a team, even the granular stuff like hr.

Dealing with problems, offices, lots of different things. So I was learning as I go, and I'm still learning now but also technology. Obviously I've never been involved in the tech space. So I was looking at, under the engineers having a black screen and doing matrix on there, and I was like, wow.

And then all of a sudden it popped out something on the website. Amazing. So I started to learn all about that. And then it gave me a, a more well-rounded understanding of how you set up a tech startup and potentially grow it into a big organization and may, may, maybe a UK brand, who knows?

And that's the vision and that's what I'm gonna try and do. If I can do it, who knows. But the experience around design squared to resi has enabled me to then think [00:34:00] about what I want and what I'm trying to achieve via front load. And the starting point of this is, Estate agents and homeowners are always saying, come and look at my house and tell me what I can do.

The homeowner, I wanna do an extension. I wanna do a loft. A lot of clients say, I want to buy this house. What can I do before I buy it? You can go to an Architect, it's quite Columbus and it takes time. And no one really necessarily fully trusts the estate agents. State agents can be very good, but also they're not architecturally trained.

They don't know the granular details around the PD rights or whatever it may be. Permitted development, for example. So then I'm thinking to myself everyone keeps asking me this, and I'm sick of doing it, but also I like doing it. It creates work, but there's a lot of kind of lost causes.

So then you start thinking yourself Surely if people are asking me for this, there's a need for it. So basically I set front load up. So there's two elements to it. One is streamlining delivery. So what I believe I've built at Design Squared is a profitable [00:35:00] business based on a good brand and reputation, but it's also about the delivery.

And delivery means that how do you produce your drawings to a good standard? To a high quality and who do you use for it? But also how do you con, and this is what I learned from Covid, how do you control your fixed costs? So for what fixed cost means, if I've got 15 employees and my outgoings are 80 K a month, that's a lot of money.

And if I have a bad month, what you do is a business owner, is panic and think right. Who can I get rid of? You become very reactive. It's very stressful. Or you really double down on new business and marketing, but it's, again, it all carries risks. So what I've done at Design Squared is I've focused on hiring a super experienced team and they are representing the company, they're delivering the product.

They're accountable, they're client facing, all of the kind of architects here. And then I'll get. I've got a team overseas basically. So that benefits me from overnight [00:36:00] delivery, all the drafting. So we've got a very slick business model and process because that then allows me then to reduce my fixed costs, pay good wages, and not panic when there's something might that might go on in the sector that exposes me to risk and then grow my gross profit margin, which is what business is about.

Stephen Drew: I got

Nicholas Stockley: that's the streamlining delivery. So now what I've done, I've offered, got a big organization set up in a couple of countries across the world, and I've offered that to other architects in the uk and I've got around 10 practices using that to help with their delivery. So chartered architects and a lot of the big organizations do it as well.

Anyway, just don't talk about it. So that, that's the streamlining delivery side of things. And then the big one, hopefully, is unlocking development potential. So there's a lot of tech behind this. There's a lot of data available online. So I'm working with around probably about 12 estate agents now. We're looking at some of the auctioneers out there.

In essence, [00:37:00] if you are, if you're buying a house, you can use this report to understand what are you buying, what could be done to it, and why. It's not just descriptive, it's policy referenced, it's supplementary planning, documentation, guidance, it's national policy framework. It's precedent, it's context.

'cause planning policy is quite granular. It can even go down to a street based on density, blah, blah, blah. And that's the knowledge we've got. So this report basically helps buyers understand what they could do.

Stephen Drew: Yeah.

Nicholas Stockley: It also connects them up to lawyers building surveyors, structural engineers, people I've worked for 20 years and do a great job that gives them trust.

It gives them a good level of service. It helps the transactional process, which estate agents love sellers. If you're selling a house, why the, how wouldn't you sell the house and show everyone else? What could be done to that house. If you don't wanna do it, fine, don't do it. But show other people that if you buy my house, you could actually add a hundred square meters through an extension, a loft.

And that just [00:38:00] unlocks the potential and opens up to a wider audience what could be done. And trust me, that will get you more money than it's currently on the market for. Or create a bidding war, which obviously entices people to pay a premium for it. So unlock that potential. Show it. And then estate agents listing.

Houses, how do they make the house look attractive in terms of people buying it? So again, estate agents are using us for their listing to actually open up to a wider audience and demonstrate the potential it has to attract to higher bidding price basically. So the report there is for those purposes, basically, and then it can be evolved through machine learning AI because a lot of the documentation.

That we extrapolate is available online, but it's in loads of different areas. So scrape, scrape mechanisms to auto-populate reports and in essence, in the future, every listing or every person buying a house or own the house, having a platform where they have access to this information and many other things [00:39:00] that I'm thinking about in terms of like energy and costs and bills and what whatnot.

So that's phase two.

Stephen Drew: Nice. So it's just one or two things. Then, you've got your eyes on I. What I love is that you. You're offering business solutions to problems that you've seen throughout your career? I'd love to Nicholas while you're here, so I'd love to pick your brains in one or two things.

'cause a lot of people in the Architecture, Social the listeners, they might be thinking of setting up a business, but equally they might be still working within an Architecture practice or, going through those steps in their career. And you've been. The person that's worked in these companies, you've set up your companies.

That also means that you have been the hiring manager looking for people, and so are there when you are looking for someone to join your team. You touched upon earlier practical experience, but what stands out for you, Nicholas, in terms of an application that would come in your inbox that would grab your attention?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I, yeah, I can definitely answer that. And I can also give a bit of guidance [00:40:00] around, I suppose the industry. Obviously everyone know, I dunno how much people know about this. We're all hearing about it. Obviously mortgage rates, costs of living, all of that. And that does impact on us individually and it would also impact on businesses because of inflation, higher pay rises, like to actually be able to accommodate it so that there's like everyone has to work.

Pull and push and pull together. When I'm hiring, I'm a hundred percent looking at specialism in what's gonna have a positive impact upon my business. If I'm being blunt. I don't care what university you've gone to. What I do care is an examples of. What's specific to my needs, my practice needs.

So I'm always gonna be looking at residential experience, residential passion, examples of that. I'm gonna be focused on people that are hungry, have a really positive mindset, not the first thing they ask me is how many days do I get to work from home? Because, and I'll talk about that in a bit more seriousness and we're big.

Big supporters of remote working at Design Squared and [00:41:00] resi and front load will be as well because I love that work from home environment and I think it's super important, but when you're younger, you, your focus should be how often, how long can I spend in the office working with seniors around me to make me better at my job.

So the mindset there is important. It's about learning. And my leadership team and senior management team here we have a lot of responsibility, but we're always in the office three days a week. The more juniors, the development side of the team, we're encouraging them to be in the office five days a week.

But we want that po, we want that hunger. And then I'm not gonna name people, but I've got certain youngsters that are part one. I have a part one kind of. On a sabbatical for three months or whatever it may be. And a part one grad who's about to start his part two. I'll talk about that in a second quickly.

But he's hungry, he's keen and he's developing so, so quickly beyond his years. And he is had probably three pay rises in six months because he's delivering. And that's what's important. So get your CV nailed down, really double down on what you [00:42:00] wanna achieve, but make your CV specific to that business and wanna work for that business and what they do.

Don't talk to me about skyscrapers. I don't do skyscrapers. I. Focus on the residential. So you need to narrow your CV specific to that business model. So make sure you do your research. And then in terms of the quick, just a real quick one home we're conscious of time. The RIBA now have been bought out obviously, and the diploma level, the opportunity to work towards your part two qualification whilst working full-time in practice.

We've had a lot of internal discussions around this. One.

Stephen Drew: Nope. Might have frozen.

Nicholas Stockley: Talked about he, he's, can you hear me okay?

Stephen Drew: Yeah. We just, I think someone was downloading the Revit model on your amazing buildings in the background there. Carry on.

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, so he's basically starting his part two in September. He's been fully supported by the business. He will be working in practice. We've set him up with one of our seniors who's chartered Architect as the internal kind of mentor and coach. And to be honest, in two, [00:43:00] three years time, he'll have his part two, he'll be six years, five, six years experience under his belt.

And he, and in. Very good money as long as he keeps developing. And also he won't be building up 30 grand of debt in an industry. Which you don't earn a lot of money. And also in a in a market climate where you can't get a mortgage unless you're on, I know God knows how much money nowadays. So even though you're 25 trust or 23, trust me, when you're 30, 32, you're gonna want to get on the property ladder.

You might wanna have family and you need, and if you haven't got the money to support, it can really stress out your life and to just get ahead of it. You don't need it now, but think ahead.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Yeah, it makes complete sense. We had a similar question that popped up from a biska, which I think you've covered, which really talks about how someone will grab your attention, is that. Room for part-time members, but I think from what you're saying, and I agree with you, especially if you are a younger graduate or something, you really have to throw yourself full force into a new office as lot as much as [00:44:00] possible.

Full-time being in the office, learning stuff. That's my opinion. I've don't see part-time working much, especially in the earlier part of your career. But would you agree with that, Nick as well?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I think a lot of that comes, probably comes down to the business as well. So with front load I've got a member of staff who works three days a week because she's working in the film space. So we're flexible around that, but we just need to be organized and make sure that when they're working, that they've got a day of delivery and it's impact.

Full upon the business. So I think in terms of the questions around part-time work, I agree with you. I think it's quite hard because it takes a lot of management and organization, having rhythm, having consistency, being around the office. That's that, that makes a big difference from a business perspective.

However, there the day release or the part-time study, part-time work model does work. But I think what you've gotta accept there is that the company's gonna be investing time and money in you. So [00:45:00] don't expect to earn the same pro rata as a full-time employee because we've gotta pay for your license, we've gotta pay for your seat, we've gotta pay for our insurance.

So you need to be flexible around not being overly greedy, earning enough to live, but also respecting the company's invest in you. And when you're full-time after that part-time experience, you'll probably be earning five, 10 grand a year more than you would do if you do full-time education. And that makes a big difference.

Stephen Drew: Yeah. Fair enough. That thank you for sharing that and I think really good advice. So thank you Biska for asking as well. Red, right quickly says, and I think I'm interpreting this the right way, he goes, this is a brilliant idea, front load.co uk. That's why Nick's done it. He says, is there anything for us?

I think he means the US. In the uk. So if not Nick, you need to quickly get to the US because Red Mike's gonna set it up. But I think partly it was a comment on that. It's a BRI brilliant

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I, no, that's, no, I think it's early stages and I believe in it and we're putting time and [00:46:00] money into it, and I'm using my own kind of personal time and cash. In time I'll be, hopefully using others. But yeah, in the UK I know the sector I know the planning policy side of things.

I think my tip on in the states if there's an opportunity there, as long as you, as long as there is, I know clear guidance and data around planning policy requirements and what homeowners can and can't do. Value add. If that's available online somewhere, then there is an opportunity in any other country in, in the world.

I specialize in the UK market policy around it, and that's why I'm nailing this area. And then in the future, who knows?

Stephen Drew: So that's it. Maybe you can do in Texas, my, my view is that the houses are three times big and you take a shotgun and the rest is history. You'd be all right. But got clients in Texas and we get along, so I'm allowed to say that.

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah. Good.

Stephen Drew: What I was gonna say, 'cause I appreciate, you're gonna have to go back in a minute before you ask me one or two questions there.

Anything, Nick, that we haven't covered at the moment? Maybe if you, the last thing I was gonna ask you is if, say now you were graduating now, is there anything you'd [00:47:00] do differently with your knowledge or would you be happy to do it the same way like you did where you just basically, grunted learn from the the trenches per se of getting a part-time job as a graduate?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I think this sector the whole kind of world at the moment is you've gotta just be prepared to knuckle down and dig deep and specialize at something. And specialism doesn't mean you can't diverse.

Stephen Drew: Yes.

Nicholas Stockley: you can't change but bec double down and become an expert at what you are interested in or wanting to develop.

And I think because that will then help you progress into other areas. So in Architecture, like just become an expert at residential, I. Design if you want to, because trust me, a lot of the processes and procedures around this, the churn, the quantity of projects, the different client types, the different objections and things you get, you're gonna learn so much, so quickly.

But then I could, you could diversify into other areas, but I think it's tough out there. I think the sector is un underpaid, undervalued. The educational system is long, it's [00:48:00] expensive. So you've just gotta be smart. So I think if you are conscious of. The financial aspects and I always talk about money 'cause that's what business is about for me.

Think ahead of it. And if you wanna progress and stand out from the crowd in the competitive market, don't just focus on I got into this university to be honest, nowadays I don't think it means so much because businesses need to operate and earn cash to pay to survive. So I think. Double down, nail it.

Work hard. Positive mindset. Be flexible. Focus on opportunity and progression rather than money when you're in your early twenties, as long as you can pay to live, because money will come into its own backend and don't get into too much debt based on the educational system because there's other ways to do it.

Practices will fund you you don't need to borrow. And then five years down the line, you've got no debt and you're in. 34% more than you would've been if you built up debt and you've got no experience and you wouldn't be standing out [00:49:00] from the crowd 'cause you've got a good education practice.

Experience is gonna be vital. And that would always be my advice. So I don't think I change a lot around what I've done. I've learned along the way. I've worked hard, I still work hard now. That's just my work ethic. So don't expect it to be handed on a plate. If you want it, it's there. Go and get it.

Stephen Drew: Well done. What wise words, and I'm gonna try not to butcher these white words and quickly ask you if you have any quick questions that you'd like to ping back to me before you head back into the office and the trenches yourself?

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah I probably have one, one question is obviously based on talking to you and that cheeky smile, how many times have you been reprimanded by management? All marched out of an office.

Stephen Drew: I would drive you insane. I would drive you insane. The only thing I got going from me that you touched upon is that I was well versed in MicroStation V A I was good. So back in the days, I would've been all right and I was good at the three D modeling. But if you tried giving me a technical drawing, Nick, I don't care whether it was InDesign, design Squared or resi.

I would've absolutely driven you [00:50:00] mad. And also I was in a big office and they had three kitchens, Nick. So what I would do is I would just go to one random kitchen and then my line manager would come and be like, wait, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh, I'm just chatting to Richard. And then the last, the trick I used to use.

So this is. A tip that absolutely no one should use. But I used to find one of the senior directors who was lovely, but he's further in his career and he liked to chat. And I just go, Hey Richard, how's your kids doing in uni? And that would buy me 10 minutes of not doing any work.

Nicholas Stockley: Classic. I'll make sure I keep my kitchen small. I only have one, and maybe I'll only open it up between the hours or 12 and one o'clock each day or something.

Stephen Drew: You've probably got normal people. As long as you haven't got me on the staff, you'll be productive. I appreciate it, Nick. And so where can people reach out to you and find out more about you if

Nicholas Stockley: Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. Look at the website. So front load, there's an email there, it goes direct to me. Design Squared you can go there, there's an inquiry, formal info at design, so you can drop an email there. They're the two primary businesses resi. I'm a kind of a [00:51:00] shareholder in that organization.

I don't. Consult for them. So if you wanna contact me directly for any advice or looking at in, obviously with things like front load I'm looking to be hiring over the coming months and design squared. Again, there's opportunities, so feel free to reach out for any advice, guidance, or send me a CV if you're looking for anything and I'll be happy to.

Yeah, give you some of my input or even if you want your CV to be improved based on the specific job you're going to, I don't mind having a little look and saying, I would double down on this if you're looking to apply at this practice. Or anything around even the education side of things. I think I've got strong views on it.

The RIBA is adapting and allowing students to give that flexibility, which is great to see. So if you want any more tips on that around how we're supporting our team to study and work let me know and I'll tell you why I'm doing it as well.

Stephen Drew: Brilliant. This has been one of my most favorite episodes, so thank you so much, Nicholas. The last thing before you go, 'cause I've been getting it given K Big. And can you mute your, [00:52:00] put that mute on and your Thanks, Sue. Absolutely terrible. All the people have gone now. Just as well. 'cause that's the end.

But you, thank you so much Nick. I really appreciate such a candid chat about, the pros, the cons, the highs, the lows are setting up your business. This is your viewpoints and also some general tips for everyone. So thank you so much. I'm gonna end the livestream now, and thank you and the audience for tuning in, asking me and nick questions.

I really appreciate it. It makes it much more fun. And do get in contact with Nicholas or any questions that you said or, and also follow the businesses and more content coming soon. Take care everyone. I'm gonna end the livestream now. Thank you so much.

Nicholas Stockley: worries, Stephen. Thanks. See?