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Join Christina (CC) and Denise (DeDe) on Emissaries of Renewal, a podcast that explores ethical evangelism through radical hospitality and education. Embrace God’s transformative love through Jesus Christ with us as we share inspiring stories, meaningful conversations, and valuable insights.
[0:00] Music.
[0:18] Hello, friends, and welcome back to Emissaries of Renewal. This is DeeDee here, along with Cece.
[0:26] And today, for episode 11, I wanted to talk with you about exploring how evangelism can move from fear, and maybe even some misconception, toward worship and radical hospitality. But first, let's do a little bit of housekeeping, as we always do. This episode is brought to you by the Episcopal Evangelism Society, or EES, a community committed to spreading the good news in fresh and inspiring ways within the Episcopal Church. And we are proud to be associated with them in this journey. All right, Ms. Cece.
[1:08] Hi, DeeDee. Hello, darling. Why does evangelism make us uncomfortable? Pull out the big guns. Well, I think that the word evangelism has slowly changed and evolved by the folks that have been evangelizing, the folks that have been evangelized, as well as different methodologies and so forth throughout history. And in our current, you know, in the early 2000s or in our current state, right, like the last 25 years, maybe the last 50, maybe like the last 50, 60 years, we have known the term evangelism as maybe forcing people to think and believe a certain way or forcing people to think how you think.
[2:12] Not pointing fingers or whatnot. And so that way, so therefore, then it pushes some of us away to actually say the term, use the word, and maybe evangelize. I mean, I certainly was very weary of the term until you and I met, right, a couple years ago in school. I definitely wasn't going to be evangelizing anyone. It was a scary term to me. But then I finally understood the context of the word, the intent of the word, the historical meaning of the word, and it just didn't come about in like the 50s or 60s, right, in the last 100 years. So I think there's a lot of different components to the actual ways that we think of the act of evangelism.
[3:00] Exactly. I think that's a great summary. I haven't been a wilting flower about how I see this or how I feel about it. But I've talked openly about my past associations with faith that their idea of, you know, worship and fellowship is to evangelize. You know, it's one of their main tenets is you go out and you spread the good news. They take the Great Commission, which is something we just finished talking about in Episode 10, very seriously. But their idea of how they do it sounds more like a sales pitch.
[3:50] And I think that's what people are leery of and even, to use another word, they're weary from it. You know, you bring up, you know, we're both Episcopalians, and you bring it up even in the Episcopal Church, and you see fear, you know, slowly crawl across people's faces because they're like, I don't want to be a street preacher. You know, they think of, you know, and God rest his soul. We recently lost Jimmy Swaggart. But he's a famous example of that, of, you know, standing on a street corner and trying to win souls. And I have plenty of examples of that in my life of how you were taught to teach people how to be born again as a born again Christian. I remember going to youth retreats or camps growing up where you were told to go out and win souls for God, you know. And if you weren't, you were doing something wrong.
[5:09] You know, you felt nervous all the time because you don't know what to say or what to do. So you worried that you were failing God. It was one more sin sometimes. And you were also failing your fellow man because you've doomed them by not doing your job.
[5:35] And... No, go ahead. So for those... So for those of us that were green to this, new to this, right? So like I just looked up evangelism in, you know, the World Wide Web, which is scary sometimes. And so AI says evangelism is the act of sharing the Christian gospel with others with the goal of persuading them to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and become followers of Christianity. Uh wikipedia says evangelism or witnessing is the act of sharing the christian gospel the message and teachings of jesus christ the episcopal church says through the spiritual practice of evangelism we seek name and celebrate jesus's loving presence in the stories of all people then invite everyone to more. And when I started under unfolding this relationship with the topic.
[6:40] If Jesus's teachings is about love, right? And his entire existence was sharing about what that looks like, how we should interact, how we should be caring and loving and endearing and being a witness to that love to one another and showing us and telling us parables and stories and not only that, right? Like washing the feet of his disciples to show us that there is no power structure and that is the ultimate example of love is washing someone else's feet.
[7:20] It's see here do right which is your model as well that we we talk about a lot as well here and when Jesus wasn't Christian right he taught us how to love it is those as it is it is those of us that follow the way of love that consider ourself Christian and so when we spread the good word of his teachings, it's spreading the word of love. And that in its very essence is evangelism. He didn't go out and say, we must go and recruit Christians, right? No, he shared that we should go out and spread the word of love. And I think that we kind of forget about that big disconnect in that, you know, that evangelism is spreading the act of love in the words of Jesus Christ, not to go and spread a simple, like a more complicated, more confined, structural, adamant, boxed in faith, right? It was spreading. It's very simple.
[8:35] So evangelism at its very true essence is spreading the way of love and teaching on how to do that right.
[8:48] I, the Great Commission, you know, which we talked, like I said, we just talked about in our last episode, is so much bigger than just going out and making little automatons, you know. And that leads us into our next segment, which is, you know, I wanted to talk about the fear or the trauma that I brought up or any of the misconceptions around salvation theology. Which a lot of mainline Protestants and I know our Catholic brothers and sisters, don't have that type of, the same type of idea as maybe as our, you know, fundamental siblings in Christ. And it, so when I say salvation theology, what does that mean to you, Cece? It means i mean it's it's a lot right knowing that.
[9:54] We have this this preconceived notion that in order to be saved there is this this fear of hell And this fear of this dark place that we are going to be shunned to, directed to, sent to, if we don't do certain things.
[10:22] And it's, you know more about it, a lot more about it than I do, because that's how you were raised. You know I was raised Lutheran and so you know the the theology of Martin Luther was hey we could have our own relationship with God and call it a day I another Episcopalian.
[10:54] Father Joseph Yu which I think you know who I'm talking about he is kind of an, influencer or content creator was talking about that, you know, he's all behind the idea of salvation theology. He's like, that's great. Let's all talk about salvation. The problem is, is there's a disconnect once that happens, is what are you being saved for? We have this set of Christians whose idea is you're being saved for heaven, and that's where it ends.
[11:41] Whereas, no, the kingdom, it even says in the Bible, I think somewhere in John, and forgive me for not being able to pull out this scripture right now, But, you know, Jesus says when you share acts, you know, when you share that piece of bread, when you share that fellowship, when you're being a disciple, you're sharing the presence of the kingdom of God. And what they're saying is the kingdom of God is supposed to be here. We're supposed to you know we're not supposed to you know just look around and go well it doesn't matter that the world is ending you know or is burning around us because you know jesus is just going to give us a new world anyway that's that wasn't the goal that was that was never his purpose his purpose was to like you said and you know the when you said the episcopal definition is we're supposed to invite them to the table and for others, you know, and wait for more. It also, some philosophers, some theologians have shared that it's, it separates from us and, and them, quote unquote, us and them. So if we're constantly worried about our salvation.
[13:10] Our way to the kingdom of heaven, our journey, then that kind of also disconnects us from our neighbors, disconnects us from our sisters and brothers. And if we're constantly worried about our afterlife and how we are going to be received, what about the journey, right? What about our time here with our brothers and sisters here in 2025. What about taking care of the resources that we have that God gifted us on earth? What about the food that we have to share with our sisters and brothers? And so it's, you know, it's disconnected, I believe, in both of those, right? And how you You share that we're focused so much on the afterlife and we're disconnected from living in the present moment, but then also it disconnects us from...
[14:10] From being in community with our neighbors. Yeah, it was, it was really, for me, coming from these old beliefs, which I was always uncomfortable with, it was hearing about the fact that, you know, a more universalist approach or universalism and sharing and hearing of that and how that was how the church and the church fathers, and everybody had originally and usually approached any type of salvation.
[14:48] And it really started to, one of the reasons why I started to rethink how it worked and, to see, and I'm somebody who's really animate about the fact that, you want to there's nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs in your face but not unless you're asked or if you're invited into that conversation you know it's been I you know I've or judging what somebody else's journey to that is so I you know I obviously don't see it the same way anymore, but the way, you know, door-to-door witnessing and how that is kind of.
[15:46] Evangelism, I think reclaiming the idea of what evangelism is and why we're here, we talk about it, you know, that excellent announcement or the ethical way of doing evangelism is important. We were doing Episcopal 101, and everybody around me in the class, when we got to talking about ethical evangelism, had something to say about it. They didn't ask me. I was the only one who had experience with the other kind of evangelism, and they didn't want to know my opinion about it, but they all shared with their idea of what evangelism is, and it was all negative, you know, because they see themselves as a community, as a group that automatically evangelizes just because of who they are as a church and who they are as a person. You know, God shines through them, their community, and Jesus shines through them. And that's kind of a natural way of existing. And that was something that...
[16:58] I think the Anglican Church was always kind of there for once that second movement, the Second Great Awakening, anyway, the revival movement. They weren't a part of that in the United States anyway.
[17:16] So it's not an unusual, I think, idea for an Episcopalian to see it that way. Yeah, and I had to, and how I was, you know, the word, I just didn't even want to think about the word, say the word. It was not even my purview until I got into school, into seminary. And so I had the opportunity to build my understanding, create my understanding of the work of evangelism. And I was able to do that by ergo reading the Bible, right? It's very much there. Jesus taught us how to evangelize. It's hanging out with the woman at the well, right? It was receiving Matthew, the tax collector. It was also working with Peter Simon and the so-called Doubting Thomas, and so teaching us about the Good Samaritan. And so that's how I was able to build my concept and relationship with evangelism and spreading on the good word of love.
[18:29] And I work with a lot of folks that are, I work with a lot of folks that are atheists or agnostic, the nuns and duns, and I'm constantly trying to remind people that it's the way of love. And anytime that they see the word, every time they see Jesus' name mentioned,
[18:50] and it's like, just replace it with love, right? Like anytime you see or hear that, if that's something that necessarily has turned you off because of certain historical context within their past, just say replace it with love. And that's what the teaching is.
[19:26] Oh, I don't disagree. And that kind of leads us into what I wanted to talk to you about next, and that's reclaiming evangelism, you know, as a radical hospitality and worship. So, you know, it can be about how you're talking about showing love and kindness and not just talking about beliefs. And also emphasizing what your gifts are you know it's a you know a big deal in a lot of you know face you know to talk about everybody's gift you know and what what what gifts have you been given and how do you how to use those to the best of your abilities because any Every ministry that you perform is an opportunity to show that love and hospitality and to evangelize in some way. I think, I mean, think about, you know, how do you demonstrate, you know, compassion, your credibility as a Christian? You do that by showing, by showing up, not even by showing, just by showing up, you know, and...
[20:56] When I, you know, like I was, when I was thinking about this idea for the show, one of the things that, um, as I was building it, that was, you know, I was thinking about was how well, like what we're doing. And, you know, we're thinking about, you know, as we're ramping the seasons up and thinking about next season, how our gifts have are very different in some ways, but they complement each other. And that's why we're able to do what we do, you know, as as my gifts have been identified and thrown in my face as, yeah, these are your gifts. Get used to it. They were surprising to me. They weren't what I expected. And it wasn't evangelism. That's not my gift. Can I use evangelism? Yes, everybody can. Do my gifts complement evangelism? Yeah. But I'm not the one in this pair that has the gift of evangelism. That's you.
[22:18] Well i disagree sister denise but but it cracks me up when i hear people say oh well come here a sermon or you can watch it on facebook or um this or that and the the he What I hear is, oh, well, I might go up in flames if I walk into a church. And that's just, it's the saddest thing to hear from me, that people are so scared to walk into a building, right, even upon invitation.
[22:55] I was having this conversation with an atheist, and they're very adamant about, well, your perception of love in the scriptures. And I'm like, well, it's not necessarily my perception. It's everyone's due diligence of perception when they read the Bible, when they learn about the teachings of Jesus Christ.
[23:26] And again, I pulled the comment out again of, you know, we don't even have to sit here and talk about Jesus, but can we agree that you treat people with dignity and kindness? And I know for a fact this person donates a lot of their time and money. I know that this person, in fact, goes out of the way to help a lot of people. And they share their voices when it needs, when their voices need to be heard. And it's like, that's what Jesus was, was preaching. Do you agree? And they agreed. And this is a person that actually studied quite a bit. Uh, and so it's, it's funny that we can go from like, oh, I don't believe in
[24:09] anything to we can believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Yeah well i know plenty of agnostics or atheists and in my nuns and dons um list of people in my life and it's all definitely um i it's religion i don't like you know i i can keep jesus he's a good guy.
[24:41] Well, as long as we can continue teaching on the good word of Jesus, which is love God and love one another. And I take the whole love God thing as we don't have to say the word God, but like, what did God create? God created the heavens and the earth. God created the birds and the bees. God created all of our two, four-legged friends and the dozen of legged friends out there, humans. God created anything and everything, right? So we also can all agree that we can love all those things and care for them and be gentle and kind with everything that has been created, whether it be an inanimate something that people sometimes don't want to name, as well as to care for our neighbors.
[25:36] And I love to be able to have these conversations and find that unification, that unification of love. And, you know, when Jesus was first talking about all of these, you know, during his ministry, it was very much shining light on the judgment and the outcasting from the Pharisees. And I always have to remember that, right? Like, I pray, but I'm human, and thou shalt not judge, right? But this is, you know, this is a huge thing that Jesus was shining, shedding light on, was to not exclude anyone, as the Pharisees did, nor share that they are the only way, and make agreements with, within power structures, right? Yeah. And I think you're kind of preaching to what I'd already said is, you know, you're really, you have a gift for this, is I think it's important to have that kind of ethical and impactful witness.
[26:50] And that's what I've wanted to do through this. I think that's what we want to do through this. And that's why I want to, one of the ways I think we can do it, and I think that they mesh so well together, is doing an idea, is reclaiming evangelism as worship. But how do we do that?
[27:13] How do you make evangelism? You know, because people are going to look at you like a deer in the headlights when you talk about evangelism as worship.
[27:23] Well, we already do that, but it doesn't seem obvious because when they think of evangelism, what do they think about? So there's a lot of reclaiming and changing the mythos around it and educating about what discipleship really is and what we need it to be and rebuilding of that. I think definitely, especially in the States, because this is the area that it's really, in the last 200 years, become something that we need to do it this way. I think we need to look at that ethical witness.
[28:07] You know, it isn't about having the right words and having this patented script. Uh sometimes it's about just being present or offering prayer if that's what they want when someone is hurting or sharing that word of hope when someone feels unseen um how do you let your light shine you know not by force but by hospitality by love you know and how what we're doing, I think, is a perfect example of that witness, how we balance each other. Our gifts can create this fuller picture of what it means to witness impactfully and.
[28:55] Um, and I think that we both, we both came to this from different, different, um, histories, perspectives, backgrounds, right? The ways that we were raised. But I think that we also have come to this point in our life because we felt as if we weren't seen.
[29:18] And we felt as if that was not okay right and we started questioning that and learning and growing and and building that relationship with god sometimes deconstructing and reconstructing and whatnot some of our our systems and and beliefs but i feel as if we you know this is a very similar thing that we come across, right, is that people do not feel seen. And the analogy of being seen or to see throughout the Bible is more than just visually, you know, seeing. And we talked about this in one of our episodes as well. And Jesus constantly reminded us that he sees everyone. And he encouraged his disciples to do the same. It's not just what we choose to see, but it's to see, right? So we can, that'd be a fun thing to go down a rabbit hole is all of the different layers of the word see, to be seen, to see. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're just doing a smackdown today. You just kind of God-specked me for a minute there. and that's hard to do. And therefore, we're shining our light, right? Right.
[30:44] True. When we see people, we are sharing our light with others, and they feel it. And then, therefore, their light can shine more so as well when they feel seen and heard. Yeah. You know, you're the former therapist. You know all this stuff. No, you're right. Yeah. No, I hear you. But, you know, I think I was telling my priest the other day, he's like, Denise, you should know this about something that I was saying. And I said, do you really think we went into this? You know, he said, as a therapist, you should know this. He was saying something as I was lamenting. And I said, do you think we went into this because we were super healthy? Come on. That's not why we do this. But that's just an insight into a therapist that you probably never wanted to see.
[31:37] Okay so i'm just going to segue into the next segment because we actually had a bit of back and forth about whether we were wanting to do this because we see this a little differently and i think it's because we have different backgrounds into it and that is can evangelism be a sin.
[32:05] What is a sin? Well, what is a sin? Sin is, you know, when you miss the mark, when you cause harm. When you don't love your neighbor. Well, when you call, you can sin against yourself even, you know, loving yourself. You know, when you cause harm, it's actual intentional harm. Not, you know, if you unintentionally harm somebody, I think that's different. But I see it as a harm-based thing. So, you know, as you said, evangelism at its heart is meant to be about love and sharing good news and inviting others into hope is important. But it can cross ethical and spiritual lines and it becomes harmful. And is, you know, we're looking at something sinful. So, you know, sharing your faith to appear holier than others, those types of things.
[33:07] It's something, yes, it's causing harm, going against our moral code, immoral acts. And that's, I think, another, that's a huge conversation, right? Because there are so many different definitions of sin. So many different you know i don't think i've ever written a paper on that i'm just kidding, one or two um well i think for me it came up this this idea came about when we were talking about it, is the any kind of coercion or manipulation and here's why if you meet god in fear you don't arrive in love okay so i think it was richard roar who said that if you're frightened into god you're not meeting the true god.
[34:19] And if you're scaring people into wanting to be saved from hell, and that's the only reason they're getting saved, you know, to go to heaven, that's not, that's not salvation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So going back to the trusty Episcopal Dictionary, it says in sin, following our own will instead of following the will of God, thereby being centered on ourselves instead of God, and distorting our relationships with God and other people and creation. And that is in our trusty Book of Common Prayer, page 848. Sin is an intentional disobedience and rebellion against God. It alienates from our true selves. Sin is a misuse of human free will by one who is capable of choice. And that's Book of Common Prayer 848.
[35:26] And so when we... So the catechism. Yeah. So when we are going against intentional disobedience and rebellion against God, it therefore alienates us and separates us from God and our neighbor. So therefore, we are not seeing God. We are not seeing our neighbor. We are not witnessing God. We are not witnessing our neighbor. We're not living in the sunlight of the spirit, living in the light. We're turning away from that intentionally.
[36:08] I mean, some of the, I remember the phone call I got last summer when you all, when you experienced, and unfortunately our classmate experienced it again, an altar call. In London and it was the first time you'd ever seen one. And to people who grew up in a fundamental faith, we can laugh about it. We can joke about it, but those things can be rough, you know? For our listeners that don't know what an altar call is, would you like to please elaborate? An altar call is in more fundamental faiths, they will end the service and.
[37:04] What is called a time. It's a hymn, and they will let that go. They will sing another round as often as they need to until everybody who needs to come up to say the salvation prayer to be saved, if they've been called and moved by the Holy Spirit during the sermon.
[37:31] Has come to the front of the church and somebody prays with them, the salvation prayer. And sometimes they get baptized right after the service. Sometimes baptism is later. It depends. Now, for those that are used to a more creedal or liturgical type of service, your sermon is not the main story of the service. It's just this little step into what is the main point of our service, which is the Holy Eucharist. That is the point of our service. So the priest, the preacher, the reverend, whoever, is not the main star. Whereas in services, such as in more evangelical or fundamental faiths, communion is not a normal part of the service. The service is not built around the Holy Eucharist. And the main feature of the service is your sermon. And these sermons last minimally 20 minutes, if not 40 to 45 minutes.
[38:49] And through the service it is leading to one thing it's to talk about your salvation and what happens next if you don't.
[39:06] If you have not been saved, what happens? It always ends up there. And it doesn't matter the service. It doesn't matter if it's a funeral. It doesn't matter if it's a wedding. I've seen altar calls at weddings.
[39:21] They do altar calls everywhere. Okay, it's always where it is going. I have had to say at family funerals, do not do an altar call. We don't do that. My family will, you know, my mother's going to lose it. Do not do an altar call. So, and the only pushback I got was, is, well, I, you know, my conscience says, and, you know, God says, I need to say something about wanting to be in heaven. You know, with, you know, my loved one, you know, and I think, I think, you know, your father would want that. And I'm like.
[40:11] No, dude, you know, listen to me. So these are, those are what altar calls are. And that's, that's boundaries. That's, you know, when you're looking at doing that at a wedding, a funeral, those types of services, there's some boundaries that are being crossed. And so when the message is surrounded on the sin of your actions, the sin of your daily life, and then to be able to have an altar call and then receive in that regard is somewhat different than in the Protestant threads. In the Episcopal Church, where we have an entire service focused on readings, the word. There's similarities within the words in the context, a sermon. We engage with praying for all, prayers of the people. And then we also gather at one table and we commune with one another. And honor Christ. Well, that's our altar call.
[41:31] Christ's love and invite us all to the table to partake in the love of Christ and be reminded of the word of the Lord. Yeah, it's, and I always joke that, you know, coming to the rail is our altar call but it is you know we we say our confession we say our affirmation of faith we do all of those things every service and thanks and we're caught and it's the great thanksgiving right right it's it's the great thanksgiving it's a remembrance of his resurrection it's all about salvation.
[42:11] Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. All of that is spoken. And so it's all in there. It's just not done in what I see as a coercive, manipulative way. Because we see salvation in a different way. So I guess that's my take. And
[42:37] what I want to happen is people to start seeing what evangelism can be. I guess that's been my take all along.
[42:53] So any final thoughts as we start to move? That was a great conversation. and talked about our history, talked about the meaning of evangelism, maybe some reasons why folks are shy of the way that we talk about it, and invited them to this conversation, as well as how we get to witness throughout our daily lives on the love of Christ. Ethical evangelism through impactful witness. Let's, you know, and that radical hospitality, let's just go. I'm going to get bumper stickers.
[43:37] I love that term radical hospitality.
[43:41] Yeah, it's a favorite of ours for sure. So we're going to wrap up as we always do with some scripture and a reflection. Cece, do you want to read the scripture? Or do you want me to? You can. Okay. So today we're doing Matthew 5, 16. In the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven. And Cece talked often about letting your light shine. So this verse does encourage you to live in a way that naturally reflects God's love and goodness. Your actions, big or small, can be a testimony to others. And it's not by drawing attention to yourself, but by pointing people toward God. So your good works can be seen as worship and as evangelism. It's not about earning approval, but about embodying compassion, justice, and kindness. When you serve, you heal, you encourage, and you simply show up for someone, you are allowing God's light to shine through you. So we hope that this verse inspires you to approach evangelism as a gentle, radiant presence, inviting others to see and experience God's love through your life.
[45:11] Amen. Amen. And that'll be all for us on this episode. We will see you next month with our final episode of the season. Yay. Woo. So everybody, blessings to you and take the very best care.
[45:33] Music.