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Need to use a SharePoint intranet due to internal policies, company transitions, or legacy systems? When all the available information is overly technical or negative, where do you turn? Enter Fresh Perspectives: Living in the reality of SharePoint intranets. We provide useful, jargon-free insights and real-world examples to help you maximize the benefits of SharePoint intranets and tackle its challenges. Pro-SharePoint but realistic, we debunk misconceptions and share product management insights from Fresh Intranet.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to another episode
of Fresh Perspectives.
I am David Bowman.
We are continuing our theme
this season talking about
ownership, and we
are joined with a
special guest today.
Before introductions there,
Jarbas, introduce yourself.
Of course. Hi, David.
Great to talk to you again.
Great to be here.
As you said, we have someone
special with us today.
I met Martine in Boston,
not for the World Cup.
It was a Reagan event
that took place in Boston.
Martine was a speaker there.
We had a very good chat.
And in that discussion came
the invitation that there
we have Martine with us today.
Hi, Martine.
Please introduce yourself
in context of also
ownership, right?
So what is the
thing that you own?
Yeah, take us there.
Absolutely. First of all,
thank you for having me.
My name is Martinee Mango.
I use she/her pronouns
And I lead centralized
communications for the Equity
and Inclusion Cabinet for the
city of Boston, underneath the
leadership of Mayor Michelle
Wu. I report to our chief.
So our structure is that
our cabinet has a chief.
And what I own, I would say,
is the connective
tissue between the departments.
And so we actually have
eight departments here in the city.
Don't judge me if I forget them,
so I might have to
count on my fingers.
Black Male Advancement,
Disabilities Commission,
Fair Housing and Equity,
Human Rights Commission,
Immigrant Advancement,
LGBTQIA2S plus
Advancement,
Women's Advancement,
and Language and
Communications Access.
So all of those departments
plus six initiatives make
up our cabinet.
We have about eighty employees
here and about eighteen
thousand or so for the
whole city of Boston.
Amazing.
I would say I own the
connective tissue.
Perfect.
And tell us a little bit about
the city of Boston and the
services that you and
your department provide.
Absolutely.
So our mission more or
less is we have this whole
concept about social
determinants of health.
So those are the things outside
of sort of like your hereditary
health that impact
your well-being.
So where you live, where
you work, where you play,
all the things that may get in the
way of you being able to thrive.
The biggest indicator and the
biggest kind of through line is
stress for us.
And then to kind of
take it a notch up,
we've partnered with Boston
Public Health Commission.
They've done several reports and
there's a lot of other things
related to that tied to equity.
And so giving people access to be
able to get the resources they need.
And so just because you don't speak
the language that we speak here,
there's actually twelve languages
that are spoken other than English.
We just added Russian as
the twelfth language here in
Boston.
And so we don't want
people to just live here.
We want them to thrive.
And another way to kind of put
it is not just like adults.
We have like this huge
college population.
In Boston, we're called actually
the Athens of America because we
have the most colleges and
universities here, Harvard,
MIT, Boston College,
Boston University, a lot.
But also childhood
lives here, right?
There's kids that
are growing up here.
And so how do we I mean,
me personally, selfishly,
I think Boston is the best
city in the world and I want
everyone to live here.
But those that do choose
to make this a home,
we want it to be a
home for everybody.
And so that's really at the
crux of what I do and sort of
looking for those areas of
intersection to help people thrive.
We come back to communicate
in this aspect where you have
such a diverse
amount of people to
communicate with.
But going a bit in
your background,
you have walked across different
sectors from banking,
now city government.
How has the communications
field evolved in the past,
let's say, twenty years?
Oh, goodness. I have some story.
Can I start with a story,
This is really funny?
That's what we're here for.
Okay.
So actually my first internship was
here in the city of Boston.
And I was working in the
office of Homeland Security.
I really wanted to be in the
press office and they were
like, Oh, we're full.
We don't need any more interns.
And so I was literally
just walking around like,
I am going to find
an internship.
I really wanna be here.
Anyway, long story short,
I found an office that
was looking for interns.
And at the time, Facebook
this is two thousand four.
And so if you were part
of the Facebook community,
you were either a you were
a college student in Boston.
But businesses and especially
government at the time, I mean,
they they thought of
it as a distraction.
And so if you were here,
it was actually blocked.
And a lot of places would block
social media because they're
like, what are you doing?
You're supposed to be working.
The idea that businesses,
like, it just didn't exist yet.
So that's the first thing.
I think it's like such a
telltale thing because now it's
like, do you even exist
if you're on social media?
So that's a huge difference.
Another way I've noticed is
definitely in like the copywriting.
Our attention, there's so much noise
in the in the atmosphere and that,
you know, to compete with.
And so originally, like
if I would create an ad,
I might have like an image and
then I would have like at least
a paragraph of text and I'd
have a phone number and maybe a
website because not everyone
had a website and it would just
be super long now.
I mean, I'm lucky if there's even
a website on there and it's not
just a logo because
some businesses,
like when you've gotten
to a certain point, right?
Where you have like a whole
brand family under your belt
and whatever, like
you are recognizable,
you can literally
just be an apple.
And would be a
great ad right now, right?
Because there's
nothing to you know,
it's not psychologically taxing to have
to take in all this information now.
And so I think the biggest
thing is because there's so
much that we're competing with,
we have cut down
further and further.
And if I could take
it a step further,
I would argue that yes,
video is king, right?
Like we know that like content
is king and video is like the
prime minister there.
Right?
But I I feel like we're gonna
continue to go in
that direction.
And so I wouldn't be surprised
if you start to see email
optimized for video or other
things just sort of like evolve
in that sort of direction.
So that was a mouthful to
say how I've seen it evolve,
a lot has changed.
Not at all.
In
the call that you guys
had in the run up to this,
one of the things that
really jumped out at me
in the transcript of that call
was you kind of had this
instinct for making sort of
deliberate choices about
how you communicate,
changes that you make.
Can you talk a little bit about
I just thought it was such a
kind of interesting perspective
that you were bringing there.
It was around kind of
deliberate choice about changes,
even down to things like fonts or
what you're going to talk about.
I think, building on your point
that you're making there about there
is so much noise,
how do you make good choices
about communications?
Well, there's definitely layers.
I think all things
into consideration,
but I think this is
gonna sound so obvious,
but like really just kind
of starting with your audience,
but getting as much experience as
possible so you can kind of
make that differentiation.
Because ultimately, as
practitioners, we are
reliant on methodology, right?
We're gonna say,
we know that this,
we're gonna need at least
this many touch points,
we're gonna this,
that and the other.
But keeping up with a now,
now time signature of what
people actually react to is
one, two, just kind of
understand where people are.
So what I like to tell people
is that communications by
itself or even understanding
strategically is not enough.
You literally have to have
boots on the ground and
understand all sides of it.
You know, do sales,
become a brand manager,
work in advertising,
find ways to,
you know it it might not be
glamorous at first, you know,
when you're you're starting
out, you're like, hey,
I'm taking on all these things,
but the experience is gonna
pay for itself because when you
want to actually
connect with people,
which is super important
in building trust,
especially in government
where a lot of you know,
people just just
don't trust Yeah.
The government. Let
someone just be honest.
I mean and they're
very right to have
a lot of skepticism,
but that's kind of what we're
working against as well.
And so I think really
kind of understanding
people, understanding all sides
of the coin, under you know,
working at the very lowest
common denominator all the way
up the different verticals of
what comms and foods is gonna
help you to really sort of
create a message that lands
particularly, because nobody
wants to be put in a box.
Yeah.
They don't. Yes. Right?
So I used to have a boss
that would say to me,
there's no customers
at your desk, Dave.
And I think that that, you know,
that was a kind of a sales orientation
that was being given to me.
But I just feel increasingly,
most jobs today,
having that context of
being out from your desk,
where people are,
understanding the constraints,
the context that people
are operating in becomes really
important for almost all roles,
all responsibilities that affect
any level of communications.
Absolutely.
And like, so you mentioned,
you know, building trust,
knowing your audience as
ways to help lend your
message in a better way.
When we had the discussion,
you also talked about
having seven touches
across channels,
which is also another
instrument that helps you
here lend the message.
Now, when we are looking at
that, at these seven touches,
so are we talking about
having my message distributed
across different
channels or having the
message maybe with some touch
from different departments
going across multiple channels?
How
do you do that in practice?
I really love this question
because this is the challenge
with having so many
different departments.
But
what I would say is it's one
message, seven touches, right?
I think the
discipline is holding
that the that the core claim
is constant and while like letting
like the format of
the channel vary.
So if for example, I'm
doing word-of-mouth, right,
because I want some sort of
thought partnership and I want
someone to talk about an
event that I'm having, right,
I want them to say it
in their own words.
I don't want it to
be the exact same,
you know, I I because
otherwise, like,
that message is not gonna be
reinforced for people and they
know when you're
not being authentic,
like people just know.
Right?
So I think it is one
message, you know,
but whether it's a flyer, it's
a caption, a talking point,
just making sure that people
are repeating that thing in
their own words, I
think is important.
But the through line is the
constant and the through line
is what's gonna build trust.
A really good ad that I
saw actually, it was a cartoon,
but it talked about something
very poignant right now.
And it said it was about
like a cherry Coke.
And they had this picture of
a cherry coke and it was on a
billboard and it was on a flyer,
someone passing out flyers.
And it was on and it was
showing all the different
touch points that we talk
about, like in our channels.
Right?
But then it showed someone
sitting across dining al fresco
and they said, hey, have
you tried this cherry Coke?
And the friend
says, no, I haven't.
And that right there was
such the epitome of why
word-of-mouth is
super duper important.
It is the most successful
form of marketing to date.
And so I do think like, though,
the message does vary and things
like that, it's what we need to
create a memory more or less.
So it does take these different
things in order for us to kind
of get this sort of like
for something to land and stick.
So Yeah.
It's a lot.
And then the the the I guess
we've we've seen the the
challenge elsewhere in other
organizations where the team
manager is the kind of
word-of-mouth communications, right?
You know, they are often the person
that is passing those messages along.
And that kind of
organic communications,
there's a bit of a
gap there, right?
Because the thing that you've
said is the communicator and
the thing that has been
received at the other end isn't
necessarily the same thing.
It's going through this
kind of intermediary, right?
Which may be a team manager,
it could be an AI chatbot that is
doing that mediation of the message.
Have you had any experiences
of kind of how you close that
gap between what you've said
and what's been received?
Absolutely.
Well, a variety of
different rate ways.
I like to prep people.
That's very important
before they're going out.
They always do like briefings
with me or I do like, you know,
talking points, rebuttals,
or what have you.
I'm surveying the community.
Not everyone responds, but like
literally just checking in.
And I multiply that by twenty
five because for whatever that
person says, somebody
else is thinking it.
They just haven't told me.
And so, you know, a lot of the
the the feedback that I do get,
it's not sort of like a numbers
metric sort of tangible thing.
It's more like, is it a positive response
or is it a negative response to something?
And I'm taking that information
and I'm using it to basically
inform my communications.
And so, you know, if I do hear,
I try to put things in a way
because we are dealing with so
much noise that are
easy to remember.
And so instead of
saying that, you know,
I have this sort of like on
demand thing where you can
watch documentaries
from the equity cabinet,
I would instead say, well,
it's like the Netflix
of the equity cabinet.
And so that then somebody would
turn around and I'm not as
concerned about them,
you know, not, you know,
using the right
verbiage at the time.
So just practice Having
that feels like it requires
you to have a really good
understanding of your
audience to know what the
framing that's
going to work best
those environments is going be.
Think also here, if your
message is a paragraph long,
that becomes difficult for people
to share that message with others.
And I think when you have the aspect
of word-of-mouth, you have trust.
So I'm receiving a message
from someone who I trust and I
like, and that helps me.
That comes with credibility.
That's, I think, powerful
aspect of word-of-mouth as
an instrument for communication.
Other thing that I was
reflecting on here,
so you mentioned,
we have been mentioning here
the attention recession that we
are experiencing
nowadays, right?
Because there is so much noise
and so much communication
happening from different
channels and formats.
So I think the aspect of
repetition also helps fight that.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Again, talking in
the conversation,
in the preparation for this
about differences in the way
that banking treats inclusion
versus the way that a city has to.
I guess I was reflecting on
that bit of the conversation
that as an individual, you kind
of have your own preferences on
how you would like to
communicate something,
on how you would like
to deliver something.
And when you're working in
an environment where the options
that are put in front
of you don't necessarily align with
kind of how you would
like to do things, right,
how do you decide what to
do in those areas where the
environment isn't necessarily
supporting something that you
believe in particularly,
but you have to pick
one of the options.
You know, do you, what?
Wanna move on That's
a good question.
So the different,
I just also wanna
differentiate between the two
because they answer to two
different entities like a bank
banking or banks, they answer
to shareholders and regulators.
The city answers to
residents who live here.
Fundamentally, like, that
already, like, changes it.
The question I like to ask
myself is because of that is
who's this protecting?
Who is this costing?
If it's a safer, softer
message and it protects the
institution, but costs
the community clarity,
dignity, trying to
think what else.
That's where I would
have to push back.
And I mean, that is sort of
like our responsibility as
well, because I think
as a communicators,
we're also the gatekeepers.
We're responsible
for the narrative.
We are also responsible for challenging
stereotypes in some cases as well,
because we're choosing images
that are going out there.
But also, it could potentially
mean finding something that I would
say is honestly oblique.
Right?
And that happens like, you know,
just language that we would
use sometimes, I guess.
It's still truthful. It's
truthful. Let me be clear.
But I don't wanna put a
target on anyone's back either. Yeah.
So it's just it's sort
of like a decision.
It's usually multiple people
involved in a decision of that
nature, but Yeah.
Tough decisions.
So going towards the
one theme that has
been following us now
for the past, let's say,
four years now,
which is artificial intelligence.
We had a discussion recently,
you mentioned about
using AI to help you save
time, while, of course, also
here is still keeping humans,
human editors in the loop and
also in the context of the city,
legal as well and the communication
that's going out there.
We have AI, I think, as tool.
Is that still like how you see
AI supporting
communications nowadays?
Absolutely, there is, we're not
putting this cat back in the bag.
No.
See it, absolutely not.
But I do I see it as a tool
and I see it as somebody that,
you know, when you're super
practiced, like a tax attorney,
I'm not questioning
whether my tax attorney,
when they're using the
software they're using,
if they're what they're
doing, because it's a tool,
they're still making
their own judgment calls.
And I think that it's something that
allows us to be more productive.
It allows us to kind of see
things from different angles
and make better decisions,
but it's not the
final decision maker.
Because AI doesn't really
touch judgment calls,
I would say. Like
that's still on us.
They doesn't really know what
to say versus what not to say.
Right? It's output something,
it's still a machine.
And so I think that's sort
of like where the line is.
It's still a tool and it's
a tool to be respected,
but it can absolutely really
leverage your work if you know.
And I feel like also like when
you all you are responsible for
what AI is generating, isn't it?
Like, regardless of what the
outcome is there, you know,
if if as a result of
of what AI generated,
you end up with a message
that didn't land well, Like,
it's you who owns
that responsibility.
So you cannot just say,
well, I used AI for that.
The same with the
accountant, right?
Even if they haven't used the
tool here, they can just say,
well, the tool didn't do
the calculations properly.
So that's the situation
I think we have with AI,
and we need to
keep that in mind.
We own the outcome. Now,
when do you draw a line?
When do you say, well,
you know, that's where
I stopped using AI?
Is that in the part of the the
decisions or shaping the message?
Yeah.
I think where I draw the
line is it it can help me
be more productive,
but it can't really help me decipher
whether something is trustworthy.
Right.
I I think that's that's really
sort of a human sort of thing.
It it's and at least
in government for us,
it involves multiple parties,
community partners, community,
name the list.
Right? Like, there's managing
up, down, and sideways as well.
So I think I think
that's what it is.
That's a human call every time.
Yeah.
Do you know, I guess
in our experiences,
in discussions with people
working in communications roles
on the topic of AI, you know,
have a tendency to kind of fall
into one of two groups, right?
People that are
practitioners with it,
becoming more confident,
more familiar with how
the tools can work.
And a second group
that are, I mean,
I don't necessarily mean this
the way it's gonna come out,
perhaps paralyzed by the thought
that it's gonna replace them.
It's, you know,
something to worry about,
something to be anxious about.
It feels like you're very
much in the former group.
Yes.
Is it is it something
that you, you know,
that you do share
those concerns about?
Do you understand where that where
where those concerns come from?
I definitely understand
there's there are concerns.
Full disclosure, one of my favorite
movies of all time is Terminator two.
So I get it.
I do, I think that there are
practitioners that kind of fall
in between two camps.
There are people
that use it daily,
quietly, the way you
might use spell check.
And then there's leadership.
I think it kind of boils
down to the leadership that really
kind of still perceives it as
a future decision to be made
rather than like a reality to
be governed, if you will.
So I think like there needs to
be a little bit of a cultural
shift because there's
a huge gap between
practitioners and I think
leadership in the conversation.
Where
do you think that gap is?
And do
you think there's
a way to close it?
I mean, I'm only one
person, but I know for me,
I want people to love
communications as much as I do.
To me, there's nothing better in
the world than showing somebody a
new piece of software and
seeing their face light Like,
I didn't know it could do that.
Like, there's just
something about that.
So I think personally,
as a practitioner,
closing the gap means
finding ways to connect
with people to allow them
to kinda see the light,
if you will, to help them
understand how they can leverage it.
Because I think people
get overwhelmed.
It's like you open up
a new software, right?
And you're like, oh my gosh,
like analysis by
analysis is the whole,
I don't want to learn a whole
new layout of a of a program.
And so people but I I also
worked with somebody that said,
and this is me in
banking back in the day,
I always think back to this.
She said, ugh, I don't
need to learn how to type.
Computers are never
gonna be a thing.
True story.
And, you know, lovely woman,
but I would type up
everything for her.
Yeah.
And so I think whether or not
you agree with it, I think it's,
it behooves us to learn it
and stay up with the conversation.
Yeah.
And I think, as you say, kind
of understand where it ends,
know, what is it that you
shouldn't be using it for.
And, you know, it's always felt
through the internal communications,
the judgment, the nuance,
the understanding of humans,
of what works, what doesn't.
As you say, it can't actually
solve any of those problems.
Needs the human in the loop,
as Microsoft likes to call it.
And I think like also
a dangerous thing that
dangerous sentence that people
might use these days is,
you know, have you
tried AI for that?
Right? Because it it
implies so many things.
It implies that AI
will will do the work
magically, which
is not the case.
So let's still bring this
conversation to an end.
We have one closing
question for you, Martine,
and that's about what's
one decision in your own
work that currently isn't yours
to make that you wish it were?
I would make this
required reading.
Required reading?
Can see my book.
It's called digital
minimalism by Cal Newport.
Right.
Yes. By Cal Newport.
Yes.
I think whether
I don't know if you're a human
being that has a cell phone
and whether or not
you use social media,
I think it's important,
so that we can choose a
focused life in a noisy world.
Yeah.
I think that is great advice
and a really good a really good
close for today's conversation.
Let's leave it
there then. Awesome.
Thank you, Martine. Really
good to talk to you.
Very nice to speak
with you both.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you, Martine.