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Welcome to Choose Your Struggle Presents: Made It, Season 1: Stay Savage. In this episode, we're still at the bottom, and we explore what love looks like for multiple members of the family.
Choose Your Struggle Presents: Made It, a documentary, serial-style podcast telling the story of a person who has made it back from the depths of trauma and created something extraordinary with their second chance.
Season 1 is titled Stay Savage and focuses on Sarah Laurel and the harm reduction and recovery housing organization Savage Sisters.
* This transcript has not been edited. Sorry, I ran out of time!
Made it made it as a member of the shameless podcast network previously on made it, I kind of hated myself at this point. You know, I, there wasn't much good going on in my life. You want the truth? Fuck. Here we go again. So I knew something was wrong. If she dies first, choose your struggle presents made it to season one, stay Savage.
Hey y'all I'm EFA tile, Harvey with the people of color psychedelic color. We're a remote based organization that believes in the power of education, community, building, and psychedelics to support our work visit www dot POC, pc.org.
I just didn't go home. I didn't want to leave. Welcome to episode five. When we last left off, Sarah's use had spiraled out of control like Liz and. She was in and out of rehab. Her first child, Dylan was living with her ex and her second child. The baby Angelina was being taken care of by Mac with no responsibilities or at least none that Sarah felt she needed to prioritize.
She decided to stop coming in. I wanted to get high and I wanted to stay on the block and I wanted to be near my drugs and I didn't want to have to deal with the baby. And I didn't want to have to deal with every single person in the house asking me questions, seeing what I'm doing. I didn't feel like pretending, like I wasn't on heroin and lying about it and having to like, just be a fraud.
At least when I was in Kensington, I could just. Um, just here I am, you know, it just got easier to stay down there. I would go home to shower sometimes and sleep and steal shit up until this point. A lot of what we've dealt with in this show is relatable from the average person know, maybe you didn't go through what Sarah has been through.
Maybe you didn't have family members that were struggling with substance misuse or addiction or mental health, maybe. You grew up in a household, very different from Sarah's, but there's been something that we can all relate to, whether it's family struggle, which every family has, or the question of where do I fit into this world?
How can I be happy that Sarah was struggling with that? Charlie was struggling with the desire to find more in the world. Like Liz was searching. The questions around, am I okay with what my family is doing? Do I support these people that I love so dearly that are doing things that I don't understand?
Like what Mack and Adam were going through. But as I said on last, the last episode, we've reached the bottom of the U again, that the U shaped storytelling method, not the V-shape. And as we sit here over the next episode, We're going to be dealing with topics that many people cannot relate to. And many people cannot understand at a level that isn't, let's say invigorated by what they've seen on the news or read from sources that may not have people's best interest in mind.
Sarah wasn't homeless and in the. Link between struggles of mental health and substance misuse are in homelessness are well-documented. And this show while dealing with these topics cannot give those incredibly difficult and messy subjects, the attention that they deserve. But what I want you to think about as you listen to the next couple episodes is try to put yourself in these situations as best you can hear what Sarah is saying about her life at this time.
Here, what Mary says about what it was like having a daughter and then really let's say two daughters and a son going through what her kids were going through here, Adam and Mac. Talk about what it was like, not knowing if their sister was going to live this. Isn't easy to listen to it. Wasn't easy to produce, but we're at the bottom now.
And it's time we sit there for a little bit. I was never technically sleeping in the park. I slept in different trap houses that didn't have running water or electricity. But yeah, I, I stayed in Kensington. You know, there were certain times where I wandered the streets for days at a time. Not for any real reason.
It wasn't like I didn't have somewhere to go. I was out of my mind. Huh? By that point, I was shooting heroin, smoking, crack shooting Coke and taking Xanax. So I lost a lot of time. I would have these weird times where I would stay up for days on end and like other times where I would sleep for 15 hours straight in the trap house.
And I would just, I was also doing meth occasionally. I mean, The only thing I didn't do was smoke weed who needs weed. At that point, I asked Sarah where her mindset was at this time or to put it another way, how she was feeling about herself and her situation that depended on the day. It depended on. If I had eaten, it depended on a lot of different varying factors.
Um, Whenever I was sick or I needed more. I tried to be a little bit more alert, you know, committing felonies. You don't really want to be nodding out at the wheel. Well, that's what the Coke was for when it comes to crime. Talking about its link with people who use substances is always difficult.
Naturally when the act itself is criminalized, there's really no way to avoid that conversation. However, the baggage, the historical baggage that comes with this conversation is not to be taken lightly. We could spend an entire block of this show talking about the mere act of criminalizing drug use. And when I gave a Ted talk in June of 2021, I spent a significant portion talking about the history of the criminalization of drugs.
But that's not what we're doing here. Instead, we're going to focus on the beliefs around criminal activity, by people who use drugs. Now, numerous studies have shown that the belief or the assumption that crime is higher for those who use drugs is widespread. Even though there's very little proof to this, that being said, there is some truth to the fact that unfortunately, those at the extreme end of this substance misuse and addiction spectrum.
Are at times forced to commit crimes, to feed their habit. It's easy to say that's not their fault. And I tend to believe that when the substance you need most in the world is not something you can just walk into the drug store and buy, but instead have to rely on the black market for it creates a tenuous situation.
This is not a subject to be taken lightly. And it's not one that we can focus enough attention on in a short podcast. Like. Anyway, here's Sarah delicately explaining how she made money. I had a couple of different ways that I would make money and they were significant amounts of money at the time for me, um, without getting into too much detail, um, cars and.
Businesses? No, I would allegedly, you know, take, take the money from the register or say for something like that, allegedly, maybe I can't confirm or deny that. Um, but I had come from a different background. I came from a corporate background, so I knew a couple of two, three things and, um, I was methodical.
About the way that I got my money and I was
strategic about the places that I chose to go to. And the amount of times that I would go there and the planning that went into place. And, uh, I had nothing but time while Sarah struggles were clearly the most egregious there, wasn't a period where Liz and Charlie weren't also focuses of attention. And for each of them, this cycling magnifying glass gave the others an opportunity to breathe.
Here's Liz, you know, if, if one of us did something fucked up, the spotlight would land on them. And it was kind of like a really, for the rest of us for a little while, you know, until it was my turn in line to be the fuck up. And then everybody was bitching about me, you know? So we just kinda took turns in the hot seat.
Um, but when we weren't in the hot seat, oh, we were right there pointing fingers at the hot seat person, you know, because it's. He can't take the heat all the time, you know, but it was chaos. It was chaos in and out of my mom's house, craziness things, getting stolen, people being wasted, you know, passing out on the porch or hiding out in the garage and, you know, cops cruising around all the time fishing for something.
And it was just like, it was hot while there was a shared sense of relief between the two people who were not in the focus at the time. There was also a shared sense of shame between all three. Here's Charlie. So it's funny, man. Sorry. I actually talked about this a few months ago when we were driving through kinds of things.
And one day I'm like, yeah, this is like the area I ran around and like, whatever years it was, um, she was like, oh, I used to like stay in that abandoned house, but we never ran into each other down there. I never saw her down there. I don't know if she saw me and just like, we didn't like say what's up for obvious reasons, but.
I don't, I don't remember ever getting high with Sarah. I would steal her empty bags and I would find them and like scrape them out for residue by we'll say that I stole quite a bit of money from Mary to buy myself heroin, to keep myself going. But like, as far as dope went, I never, never used with Sarah.
I mean, I drank with Liz, but like that's, that's socially acceptable that doesn't, that's not stigmatized while the rest of the family wavered from open worry, too uncomfortable silence. The three that were struggling, were doing their best to brush it all under the rug. Here's Liz, we were all just trying to hold up our.
My focus. I'm trying to keep all that in my blind spot. I don't want to have these conversations. I don't want to question myself. I don't want you questioning me. I am 24 7 focused on the next party. That's it. And I think we all were, except when we were in deflect mode, when we knew the heat was on us and we're in defense mode.
So it was like a, like, get what I want and get whoever I have to get off my back. But there's no way I'm going to sit down and dig into this conversation authentically with. I can't even be honest with myself. Fuck it more after this spring, here's this episode's podcast recommendation brought to you by great pods.
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Sarah remembers this time as a slow, but steady, downward spiral. Um, I would try to stay sober. I couldn't do it, blah, blah, blah. Um, eventually she took me to a treatment facility, which I left within like a day and a half. And, uh, I left with a girl that I was my roommate. And we went and got a hotel room.
We wall hawked, we walked for hours to get to west Philly to cop. And the first thing I remember is getting in the car and we had the same dope dealer and we called Chico and got in the back of his car and she said, do you do dates? And I looked at her and I was like, what does that mean? And I found out what that meant.
Um, and Chico said no. And so she called this guy that she knew, and he paid for this hotel room and I called my mom like two days later. And I was like, dude, this girl is, uh, doing all these things and I'd never been exposed to anything like this. And I was like, I don't even know what to do. And she came and picked me up and took me home.
Through it all, Mary was always there, but she herself needed support. Here's Mary. I went to a, my first, not my first as a kid. My father took us a couple of times, but, uh, what is it called when you're the Alanon went to Cornell and I'm meeting in weight, bunch of mainline women and men and all of them like, oh, thank you for your service.
Thank you for coming. So good to see you, huh? And that's all. It was, it was just a big. And I was like, so I have a real problem, and I need some advice from somebody with some experience. Oh, you love to make that decision everyone's makes decision everyone's different W2. I was like, this is bullshit. So I went to see father Jim and his first line out of his mouth interfering with what God is doing in your daughter's life is a mortal sin.
Damn go father. The idea of harm reduction is simply meeting people where they are, accept them for who they are and what they're doing, and have the relationship that you want to have with them. In that respect, Mary was practicing this from the beginning and she didn't even know it at the time. Sarah mostly kept in touch and I knew where she called.
So I, I would go down. I mean, if I hadn't heard from her and she wasn't answering or the phone was off or whatever, I wasn't interfering. In, in the way that I think father Jim was talking about in that sense, I would drive down there and the guy, they all knew me. They knew my car, you know, like that street editor's note, I chose to bleep this, to protect the identity of those who are still selling drugs in this area.
And you drive down, they serve you. They knew my car, they knew my husband's. They also knew me there. Like one of the poppies would be like always trying to hit on me and then he would tell me like, Sarah was here this morning. She'll be here later on tonight. I would tell them I'll be back at seven, tell Sarah.
And then we would meet up. Um, very often she would call me. And uh, I said, I'm going to go out to dinner. She's like, I'm high. I'm like I got ya. Can you. Yeah. Okay. So let's go out. We went to dinner, I took her, it was one time. I was like, I don't know, can you, how much can you laugh? Like how, how good is a comedy show when you're high?
And she's like, yeah, no, it'll work. I was like, all right, so let's go. So we went to a comedy show. There's pictures of us. She was high. I took her to Applebee's like, I think I wasn't interfering so much as I wanted her. Like, whatever time I have with you. You're still my daughter, you're still a human being.
You don't have to get sober for me to love you. You know, I love you. No matter what, you don't have to get sober for me to love you. Those words are so simple. And yet there are people who would kill to hear those words from their family members. While Mary remembers her faith is unwavering that our other members of the family who aren't.
Here's Liz's recollection of this time period. She started to question herself and what she was doing, because I think love finds it impossible to stop. And that's my mom. And I think she just got to a point after year after year after this and seeing her daughter die in her arms and like, what the fuck?
Like what I'm doing, isn't working. Is there something else I can do? And for my mom to step back and question herself that. The Aurora Borealis, but I know that she went through a lot of pain and struggled. The caveat I'll give is that we have to take that recollection from Liz with a grain of salt. She admittedly wasn't in the best place herself at that time.
Me and my sister had been playing this tug of war, my whole life. We're competitive, you know, because we're so close in age and Sarah, his addiction looks very different than my addiction. And I mean, hers is a lot more easy to say, oh my God, you can't do that. You can't run the streets. And, uh, like I said, like I would go sit in my kitchen and drink two bottles of wine and just talk about how crazy my mom is, how she's enabling Sarah, how Sarah is out there, neglecting her child and just the judgment, like good self-righteous judgment with Liz, Sarah and Charlie, all struggling.
The other brothers couldn't run away fast. First Alex then Oz me graduated high school and Adam wasn't far behind, but even before he graduated, Adam, couldn't wait to get out of his mother's house. I w I would party a temple a lot, and I went there and eventually I, at 17, before I finished high school, I moved into temple.
I just moved in with a girl that I met that turned out to be the love of my life Georgiana. Um, but she let me stay with her for a couple of months. And then we got an apartment to get. Oh, yes. For the first time, since the first episode, you get to meet a new character and her name is Georgie. Georgie is a care bear.
She has a constant source of happiness and light, and she's just as dedicated to this. Cause as everybody else, it was a shame. I couldn't bring her in earlier, but this is where she fits in the story. So welcome, Georgie. I first met Adam when I was 20 years old. Um, he was 17. He lied to me about his age. He told me he was 19.
I want to make that clear for the. In a weird way. I was physically like super close to Adam and the Alison family at that point. Uh, so a little background. I am Romanian. My parents immigrated to America from Romania when I was really young. Um, they brought me and my brother over when I was six years old, they were always taught that any sort of drinking any sort of drugs was full-stop you can get in so much trouble.
It's a very, very bad. So when we came to America and I started high school and, you know, I started experimenting with alcohol. I started drinking a couple of beers with my friends on the weekends. Um, I think it really frightened. And my parents at that time were going through a divorce. And so I was not spending as much time at home.
Instead. I was spending time with my two good friends and I was, you know, drinking beers on the weekend. I don't think I was abusing it, but my parents felt like any bit of alcohol drinking was abusing it. And so they went to my school and they told my school, you know, um, my daughter Georgiana, she. Has a problem.
She's drinking alcohol there's alcoholism in her family. My grandfather was an alcoholic and they, I guess they expected my school to reprimand me. I don't know what they expected. Um, but obviously the school is like, oh my God, she's got a substance abuse. We need to put her into outpatient rehab. And so I was into outpatient rehab every day after school, I had to go to Rosemont Plaza from like five to 8:00 PM.
And if I wasn't there on time, I would be sent to an inpatient program with that background. Georgie at least had a bit of a foundation to understand Adam and his family. However, she remembers the first time she met Sarah, not particularly going well. Adam. And I were going to his mom's house and he knew that Sarah was going to be there.
And before we got there, he told me we were walking up the driveway and he was like, Sarah is, is a character. He said, she's going to be very, very nice. She might be a little pushy. Um, you know, be prepared for that. She's going to be really excited to be your friend. Um, he had never brought a girl home before.
So I was excited, but also a little anxious. I had heard a certain amount about Sarah. I didn't really know anything about her, just that she was nice and that she was going to try to be my friend and I walk out on the porch. And I remember, um, that she didn't address me. Um, she was just talking to Adam and she looked at him and she was like, who's this.
And I was so taken aback because Adam told me like, oh, she's going to be so nice. She's going to be your friend. Um, and I, I didn't know what to say. So the first time I ever met Sarah, she said, like, she basically said not one word to me. And you know, she got off the porch and she left quickly. It wasn't long before Georgia became a full member of the family.
And with Adam that meant learning and understanding his struggling siblings. She was. You know, frequently, a lot of Adam's family members would always come hang out and it was, it was so many, it was beautiful because it was so many friendships. Family was friendship and, and it was really nice to be able to meet.
Adam, become really close with Adam and then become close with his family members, become friends with, with Sarah, because even though the first time I met Sarah, it was a little iffy. We were both born in may. We're both Tauruses. So I think we like we get along in a way still being a teenager. Adam was nervous to introduce Georgie to certain members of his family.
And he wasn't sure if she'd understand the struggle that Sarah, Liz and Charlie were going through. And it was a huge part of our relationship. Um, and I think George is an extremely compassionate person. And so she was there for me. Um, she helped, but she was also mad, just like, just like I was, because I remember at one point her, her stuff went.
And that she, she was just furious and I had to sort of be like, look like, you know, yeah, sorry your stuff went missing. I'll give it, I'll pay for it. I don't give a shit. But it's like that, that, that happens. It's definitely happened to me. And I'm sorry it's happened to you, but like, it is what it is. And she, uh, she fortunately was like, I understand.
Um, but she was still definitely mad. And so it made me extremely resentful towards. Uh, at the time, but at Georgia hadn't been putting up with that for nearly as many years as I had. And at that point I was like, okay, that's really not that important. Um, and Georgie, it took her a little longer to realize that not nearly as long as it took me, um, but it took her longer than the year that that happened, which was the first year that I met her.
Um, Radically, uh, she very quickly came to the realization of what people in addiction were dealing with. And I think because she was a little bit older and she'd had a little bit more exposure to other people in addiction, um, throughout her life. So, you know, we w it took me 10 years to come to that realization, took Georgia maybe to, I interviewed Adam before I interviewed Georgie.
And at first she didn't remember this story. And so I played her a short clip of Adam's recollection. Here's her response. Oh, yeah, I do remember that actually. I don't remember what she took, but I remember like being confused as why would you take from her family members? Um, and I mean, I didn't understand at that point.
Um, but yeah, I guess that was the first time that like, I really like had my eyes opened a little bit to, to this disease and to like, And how it affects people and the consequences and the actions that people will take, because. We'll be right back. If you guys want to learn more about Savage sisters, check out www dot Savage, sisters.org.
If you'd like to hear more from me and Sarah specifically, please reach out to info@savagesisters.org, and we can come speak to you, your organization, your business, or your place of worship on Narcan, trainings, harm reduction, trainings, or anything in general with Savage sisters. If you want to donate, please go to seven sisters.org sponsorship.
There, you can find a plethora of ways to give directly to our cause and help our mission. Additionally, if you want to come volunteer at an outreach, please reach out to info@savagesisters.org. So we can give you dates times and locations for our outreach events. Thanks everybody. Stay Savage.
Hey, y'all it's Jay, the host of this show. If you're not really enjoying this series and you're just listening to make me happy, then thank you for the rest of you. I invite you to check out everything else. Choose your struggle does in the mental health and drug use advocacy space, we have a couple of other podcasts and putting our incredibly popular weekly show called.
Choose your struggle on that show. I interview people with lived and learned experiences on the subjects of mental. Substance misuse and recovery and drug use and policy. But occasionally we talk about other topics as well. We also have another new show called choose your struggle presents Monday motivation, but it's not just podcasts.
We also host two vulnerable storytelling events, rock-bottom storytellers and a day in the life on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube. And now I'm so excited to announce that we'll be doing rock bottom storytellers live here in Philly, starting the summer. I also have a book coming out, hopefully later this year.
And I regularly traveled the country, telling my story. And speaking about these important topics. I know this is all a lot, but you can check us out at our website. Choose your struggle.com and check out all of our podcasts wherever you're getting this serious, just by searching for. Choose your struggle.
All right. That's enough about us. Let's get back to the show.
as Adam recalls, it was a mix of emotions when Sarah came around during this time. Seeing her was a relief cause I got to see her. Um, and it was also a trigger for me to try to kidnap her and handcuff her to a radiator, uh, which happened on occasion. Um, she definitely came to my apartment at temple a lot, um, because it was near her stomping grounds.
She came and she said, look, um, sometimes she would say she was sober and I would believe her. Um, sometimes she would say she's using and she's about to go to rehab. And I tried to help her. And sometimes she'd say, I'm going to go cold Turkey on your floor. And, you know, and we tried that and, uh, it was definitely a variety of things.
Um, it was also, I was also afraid like, oh no, is she going to, you know, I had to lock my bedroom door when I left my house, you know, is she going to take my stuff? These interviews from Adam and Georgie perfectly encapsulate the mix of emotions that is loving somebody who is struggling with addiction.
There are so many different factors at play. The whole robbing, the people I love to pay for my habit. Trope is so overplayed in cliche. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a nugget of truth in it for some people on the other hand, as you can hear from Adam, this idea of wanting to do whatever you can to literally move heaven and earth to help those that you love that are suffering, that always wins.
All right. Enough of these, one more from Georgie to really bring us home after that first time that you stole. I remember like being really like, and I hate to say it, but I'd be really anxious when she come over, because I'd be like, shit. Like we have to hide, like I have to hide my jewelry box and I have to hide like a bunch of stuff.
And it always made me like really uncomfortable and like, and I didn't want to feel this way about Adam's family member about Sarah. You know what I mean? Like that's a really, like, that made me feel really bad about myself and about like the whole situation. And I w I would always be like really anxious when she came over, but it was, it was nice to see her.
I know that, like, at least she was, she was alive. Sarah wasn't oblivious to this at the time or now. And she has to live with that pain today. I tortured them all Adam's house was always good to get money from though. He had cash everywhere. He was terrible. I was like, can I come over? Like poor Adam? For Adam.
I was curious as to how Georgie felt being a recent outsider coming into this family, in which three, people were struggling with addiction. In many cases, when one person in a family is struggling, it can suck all the air out of the room and in very awkward way when their name is mentioned or when they come to a family function, we don't know how to talk about this issue.
And when we try, we oftentimes don't do it very well. Here's George's response. The Sarah situation was always in a way looming, I think always looming over. I think it was always on the back of Adam's mind. Um, when I'd go over to Mary's house, there would be a little, like, I don't know how to describe it, but there'd be like a feeling in the air, you know, like it was a situation that everyone kind of had to like deal with.
Um, and it was. Yeah, it was always there. It was unspoken though, for the most part. Like I wasn't, this is still like at the beginning of me and Adam's relationship like Adam and I have been dating for eight years now and I've gotten really close to his family members now, but like, it was at the beginning of our relationship.
Um, and so like, I wouldn't really, like, I wouldn't feel comfortable like talking about it too much. Um, I didn't feel like it was my. It was really tough. I remember when I first started dating Adam, Liz and I were really, really close. Um, the first day, the first time that Adam met me, he actually, I remember Liz told me the story.
He went back to Liz's, uh, to sleep over at her house. And he, he was like, oh, like, I think I just met this girl. And like, this is different. And like Liz tells me this story to this day. When Adam and I first started dating, we would always go to Liz's was in Jim's house on spring garden street. And we'd hang out with, with Liz and Jim and it felt like home, it felt so nice.
But you know, as Liz's journey started changing a bit, I started seeing less and less of Liz. Um, and I'm like, that made me super worried because at that point, like I knew Liz more than I knew Sarah, and, you know, you always feel a little helpless. Especially like as an outsider, like I was getting really close to these people, but like, I still felt like it wasn't my place to say anything.
And like, I felt like a little, a little like uncomfortable with the situation, even with Charlie, Charlie, we'd always come hang out at temple with us. So it was really nice to, to see him whenever I could. But it, it was always like, I never talked about them about that kind of, that kind of part of their life at that, that.
I felt so bad for Adam. You know, I, I would hear him. Adam has this, like, he has a very bad habit of like, when people call him, he puts it on speaker. I don't know why you would do those, but, but he does. He always puts it on speaker. And so I would hear these conversations that would just be so upsetting.
They would, sometimes it would be sadness. Sometimes it would be like pure anger. Uh, sometimes like he would be pleading with his family members to. Get help. And I'm like, that was, that was really hard. Adam got lucky in finding someone in Georgia who would be his soulless Mack. She wasn't so lucky. I'm originally.
Um, my plan was to go to CU Boulder. I got a full ride and I was ready to leave, but yeah, my dad had cancer and uh, Sarah was not doing well. And. My mom didn't want me to go. Um, she kind of said, you know, if you go, I will not be able to pay for your flights back and you might need to come back for more funerals than one.
So I ended up passing the up my full ride to my top school. I was so upset about it, uh, to stay. With my family. However, I did ended up going to LaSalle university in Philly and, um, I ended up getting a place with Adam and Georgie in south Philly. And I began moving out a week before graduation. I wanted to get initially I wanted to get as far away from there as possible.
Since that was not an option for me. I had to get out of there immediately, uh, but stay close enough that I could be there if I needed to be or when I needed to be. Uh, but I absolutely was like, I need to leave if I don't leave, like I'm, I'm gonna kill myself and that wasn't not an exaggeration. So I was very, very excited to leave.
I was, I was fully packed out of my mom's house within three days of graduating. For Adam, at least all of this paled in comparison to his greatest fear of all, she would come to my house and she would be safe for a couple hours or a day or two days, and then she'd be gone again. And I'd be terrified that, you know, the next time I talked to her, she was going to be, it wasn't going to be her.
It was going to be somebody calling saying she was dead. Next time on me. There were brief moments where like, I would, I mean, I shouldn't say brief my lens. I went to treatment like 20 times, but you know, it barely ever lasted longer than a couple of days because. I mean, yeah. I hated myself. Hence why I was completely annihilated every day.
Thanks for listening. Made it. Season one, stay Savage is a choose your struggle production and a member of the shameless podcast network. I'm Jay Schiffman, our narrator producer, and founder of choose your struggle special. Thanks to Lauren Schiffman and Steve Schiffman for their help on this show, the theme song was composed by me and built on the song.
All that by Ben sound, the made it theme you hear in episode 10 was composed by lettuce and Robert. All interviews for this show were given freely and no payment was received by anyone for providing an interview for this show, all views expressed by those interviewed are their own. For more info, please see your show notes or learn more@chooseyourstruggle.com.