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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Like, the internship is, like, you found is very useful. Would it be useful to have the teacher as part of that process as well? Because, like, gen generally, if you're doing an internship, you're kind of plopped into a company, and then you're basically reporting back. Would it be more ideal to have a teacher able to help the student as well as kind of getting feedback from the business?
Nick:I think a teacher should come by the office, like, every every four weeks or whatever. And, also, the intern should be able to to message or call the teacher. Like, hey, I'm stuck here. What would you do there? Like, that kinda kinda stuff.
Nick:I wouldn't Just just just just we are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. And we're officially live. We are officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:Hey, mister Nick.
Nick:Hey. Hey, mister Tyler.
Tyler:I thought I'd try a new nickname for you.
Nick:Well, mister Nick, that's, very creative, so I'm I'm very impressed by your, design problem solving skills.
Tyler:Well, you know, I went deep into my creative bag and pulled that one out, so hope you enjoyed it.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I wanted to call you mister White, but then we would be in a different field, I guess That's producing different, different things.
Tyler:I don't mind it.
Nick:Okay. I mean, we we can make a career switch if this doesn't turn out. Like, if we if we fail at being a designer, we can try we can rent an RV, and I'll call you mister White, and we will do different things.
Tyler:Okay. We can tour we can tour we can tour just go on a giant road trip with our with our van.
Nick:Yeah. Anyway, you know, let let's talk about, you know, design education today. Okay. The you know, how people enter this field or what they do when they want to enter this field. I'm very curious to to hear if the thing that I'm going to say if it's if it resonates with you, if you've seen the same thing or not at all, you know, and then we can can take it from there.
Nick:And the thing I want to say is a common remark people make when, you know, when I do coaching and mentoring. I always ask, like, hey. Okay. You want to be a UX designer or a product designer or do something with users? And why is that?
Nick:And then they always tell me, like, well, I want to help people. I want to have happy users and do good for the world and prove all the things you do, better experience, that kind of stuff. I mean, that's great. You know, first of all, I think it's it's very you know, it's it's a good thing to aim for. But then I also look at my career so far where I've been mostly working in, you know, large corporations, governments, banks, really large profit first type organizations.
Nick:And I feel like there's a big gap between that very motivating thing people tell me, like, want to do good for the world. I want to make users happy versus the thing that happens on the job, on your day to day job, where it's mostly about how can we move as many users as we can towards the buy button, the subscribe button. You know? It's it's a gap I'm noticing, and I can't help but feel a bit sad that they will hit that wall at some point.
Tyler:True. But I think that's with any career choice, I imagine. Like, if you're jumping into being a doctor, well, that's probably a terrible example. You're constantly helping people, but there's Yeah. There's jobs where you like, you're you graduate from school or you take your boot camp, and then you're okay.
Tyler:You're you're bushy eyed, you're bright tailed, whatever the the term is, and you're you're ready to help your users to your point. But at the end of the day, like, there I think we when you're coming out of school, you're probably over indexed on the helping users portion, but we're forgetting what, that if the business doesn't make money, you can't help them. So, at the end of the day, like, the business needs to run. Yes. You need to have people hit that subscribe button.
Tyler:But if the business doesn't have any revenue, then you're not gonna be able to help the users. So that's the bal that's the balance. The percentage, that depends and varies from company to company, but very true. Yeah. You're not it's not about helping users.
Tyler:It's also about helping the business as well.
Nick:Do you think less people will would go into design if they knew more about what it's what it's actually like?
Tyler:I don't think so. You can challenge me if you if you disagree.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:I think Mhmm. It depends how it's being sold. So, like, if it was sold, like, hey. You can take a business and and help it grow. At the same time, help its users.
Tyler:I think there's a story or a narrative there that you can kind of tell that'll be as attractive to that person. I don't think we're too naive as people to think, like, my work is just helping people all day. Like, maybe that's how it was pitched, that's why they're disillusioned in that way. But I think if it was painted in the correct or, like, in a more realistic way to your point, the transition from, like, school to on the job might be a bit more smoother. Curious what you think.
Nick:I think that, know, you maybe I've been in corporations for too long, you know, because I you know, just last week during my vacation, I went to a theme park, and they had their they had a companion app you can use while there on your phone Mhmm. Where it tells you about queue times at different rides, and your tickets were there, and you can ask all these questions. And I think that being a designer for that theme park, know, working on the app, that would be about making people happy, but also making the theme park more money because, you know, when the user is happy, they're more likely to stick around a bit longer, you know, go to a a foot stand in the theme park rather than going home. You know? So in in that way, I think you're right.
Nick:Like, there are, I think, places where you can do both, make users super happy, and have them spend more money. But I also think that maybe those projects are less common compared to just another dashboard, you know, just another government thing you have to make. Because I remember my corporate days, like, we were with 50 designers, including myself. And every when you ask any one of those designers, like, hey. What do you want to do?
Nick:Like, well, I want to work for McDonald's or I want to work for, you know, Coca Cola, like, one of the the big brands, but only, like, two or three people were doing that. Like, the other 40 plus designers were all doing something for a Dutch ministry or a Dutch bank or, you know, the IRS in The Netherlands, that type of of projects, you know, very, like, dusty, slow projects. So maybe maybe that's the thing. Like, maybe someone wanting to go into design should be well, they should be prepared that the the fun projects you see online, that they aren't always the default. Like, there's it's likely that she will do something else too.
Tyler:And then I would maybe ask you, like, from the people that you were kinda speaking to, like, why specifically design? Like, you can also do development per se or project management. Yeah. Each one affects the user, like, regardless. So why specifically design?
Tyler:I guess it's the first question.
Nick:Most of them, if I remember correctly, most of them were also interested in the psychology part of design, you know, color theory and certain moods you can create and how it interacts with your experience as a whole. I also think what I'm now I'm more guessing, I also think that a nontechnical person looking at a development role, I think that the learning curve is is way steeper compared to going from marketing to design, where you go from nontechnical to nontechnical. Yeah. But that's what I'm thinking. Perhaps the the nontechnical part mostly.
Tyler:Well, that's fair. But also if you're a project manager, it's probably more like it's probably the least technical Mhmm. If you wanted to transition. Design, they're like to your point, there's color theory and then learning the tools, and then even more technical that the engineering counterpart. I guess there's probably an allure of, like, the designer, UX designer Yeah.
Tyler:Yeah. With all the fancy, fancy tools that we have.
Nick:Mhmm. Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think, like because I'm you know, I for this episode, I just threw in a a random thought that I had, like, you know, a pattern I I thought I was seeing.
Nick:So I I have to fine tune and figure out what I think and if there's something there. So that's something we're actually brainstorming right now in this episode. So that's probably quite cool, I would say. I'm I'm just curious if there if that gap is actually there, the the things you learn in school versus the things you do on the job. Because I'm already thinking about what you said in the beginning.
Nick:Is that something that's unique for design? Yes or no? And then regardless of the answer to that question, then the second question would be, does it matter? Like, is it the problem? Isn't that always going to be the case?
Nick:Like, is it okay that you learned something and that things are a bit different? I don't
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:Think so per se, but the cap can be too big,
Tyler:I think. Like, I'm thinking like, I'm trying to see if I can counter the initial argument. Like, does it matter? Like, if you look at the landscape of, like, what the makeup of a company is, would you think that, like, the designer is the one that's more concerned with the user by and large? Like, everyone is, but, like, first question, do you think the designer is more empathetic to the end user as, like, a position?
Nick:I think a designer is trained to be that way.
Tyler:Yeah. So I think may it could be a good thing that, like, we over index on, like, making sure that our users are are happy because the let's say you started in the middle. Let's say, like, I love I wanna make sure that they're they're that I'm only focused on the users versus I'm only focused on the business. If we over index on the user at the beginning and then we get jaded and disillusioned, then it slowly moves over. But you never loo lose that base of, okay, user first.
Tyler:Even though we're learning on the job that the company needs to be there as well, maybe that's not a bad thing. That could be the counterargument.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I see something there. I I think you're probably right about that. It's it's to be expected that the things you learn in school is very much about theory, and then you go you go do a job, and every company is slightly different.
Nick:So with that in mind, it's probably impossible to expect that the things you learn and the things you do align perfectly.
Tyler:Yeah. Then I guess I guess it brings up the questions, what should you be learning in school and, like, what versus, like, what you'll be learning on the job. Because, like like, we learn, like, the majority of it on the job. Like, plus also it depends on what industry you're jumping into. Like, if you're in fintech versus the government versus ecommerce versus wealth tech, whatever it is, like, the things you like, yes, the job is designer, but what you're doing on the day to day basis is vastly different and also specific to the industry you're working in.
Tyler:So I don't think you can be trained to, like, learn an industry as, like, the second layer of, like, what you're doing on a day to day basis.
Nick:Do you also think that first layer is different compared to for each industry? I think that's something you mentioned.
Tyler:Yeah. May I mean, because we have the like, what we learn in school is, like, the process. Right? So, like, you you do some discovery. You do some research interviews, like, the the the standard, like, five step design process.
Tyler:Yeah. That also is the idealized version of what that design process looks like. You probably know like I do, like, that is never a consistent framework that exists with any company. Like, depending on how fast the company is, depending on, like, the structure, it's you're never following and how much time you have to work on a particular project. You're never doing everything by the book, I guess, to say.
Tyler:So probably, yes. Like, in the first layer, you're learning the principles, but then it's learning like, when you're on the job, it's learning how to adapt the process to make the most sense for where you are and the type of company that you're working at.
Nick:Well, that's something I think they that should be mentioned at least in, you know, your your typical design education program, you know, whether it being a university or a boot camp or something in between. I didn't hear that in school. Like, I I was your I know ten years ago, I was your typical design graduate, like, very happy and my backpack full of ideals and dreams and running into my first job and hitting a wall on the first day, basically. Because I I remember my manager looking at my my notes of the day, and then he he he picked my piece of paper up, and he wrapped it into a ball, and he and he threw it away. And he he told me, like, that's not what we do here.
Nick:And, like, that that really was a a smack in the face, you know, figuratively speaking, of course. But still, it it wake me up like, but I thought it was this was the way to do it. You know? Which it turns out it wasn't.
Tyler:No. It never is. You know what's a big you know what's a big realization you learn? Like, I don't know how it was for you in school, but, like, the example projects or, like, the the things that you work on that kinda build up your portfolio, it was always zero to one. So, like, a brand new idea, like, this will change the world.
Tyler:Let's say you work on this new app that'll help. It's a new dating app or a new profession or a a new finance app. It's always zero to one. But what I never learned in school was what's the majority of the case is joining a company that's already been in existence for at least, like, two, three years
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And having to design with the constraint of what's already there. And what what I mean by that is, like, there's already something designed. There's a framework involved. The engineering team has a certain tech stack they're working with. There's tech deck, which is just means, like, it's things were built super quickly to get to revenue.
Tyler:So we're hacking our way to, like, a version or the MVP, and it wasn't built in the ideal way. So you're having to kind of communicate with, like, the different stakeholders and engineering. Like, okay. We wanna build this new feature, but there's some constraints in the way versus I let me just put in my dream version of what this app might be, and then we'll build it.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's, I think, a thousand percent the case. That's that's really, really so. I I don't think I ever worked on something from scratch at all in any of my my employment days, but also not in my my freelancing days.
Nick:The closest I've been is where, you know, I I would join a startup as the first designer and the only designer. And then they already had some sort of hacky first version, like a a 0.1 version made and designed by the founders. You know? And and then even if they didn't have that if they did even if they didn't have the dashboard, like that first little thing, then still there's an idea and the tech stack they already chose Mhmm. And constraints put on put on by the founders.
Nick:Like, we want to have this done by the end of the month, by the end of the year. So the zero just doesn't exist unless you found something yourself. And by the way, it sounds fun, the zero to one work, but I think it's even harder than one to a 100 work. Because if there's nothing there, like, everything is possible, and that's super tough. Like, you will have a empty piece of paper syndrome.
Nick:I'm not sure what the the right word is, but you're just staring at your screen. It's empty, everything's possible, and then you freeze.
Tyler:Yeah. Plus you're, like, you're if you're not the founder that is the designer, you're like, how close are you to the initial problem of why the company was created in the first place?
Nick:Mhmm. Yeah. That's a good point. One of my favorite clients was talking about, like, the difference between, like, zero to one and then one to a 100 for a designer or basically anyone involved with that project is that once you hit the one, like, everything before, you can just experiment and break things and, you know, have your startup mentality and do everything by the book. But then once you hit the one and go beyond, so you have users of revenue from that point moving forward, it's super scary because anything you change might make the product better.
Nick:You might make more money, but you might also break something, and that will cost you revenue, cost you users, like, a higher churn rate, maybe even branding damage. You know, if it's like a real big mess that you're making. So that puts pressure on you, but also your stakeholder management will be very different because you have to convince a founder who has way more to lose than you to make this change, and it's likely going to result in you being able to make smaller changes instead of a few big changes. And that's something, you know, a founder had to tell me, but I also had to find it out by doing. And that brings us, I think, you know, a little bit full circle again to what you said earlier.
Nick:Like, that's something you can only learn by doing. That's not something you can learn in school.
Tyler:Yeah. On that point, do you think, like, as we're kind of talking about the things that you learn on the job versus what you learn in school, would like, if you were to give in, like, a magic wand and then to create your own school to kind of prepare designers for life in the job market, I think we've said a couple of things that might kind of give a better training to those people going into the job market. So it's like, yes, the craft, learning the tools, learning design, but also, like, is there a value in kind of having, like, fake clients, working on in a situation where we cure it in a way where it's like, it's an existing project that already exists, and you have to speak to the different stakeholders, like the the CEO, the marketing person, the engineer, to make sure that what you're suggesting actually might get approved and move forward. Like, is there is there a better way that we can curate, like, the educational system to better prepare for the next step?
Nick:I have lots of thoughts there. While being aware that all of the things I'm going to say, there are there are some very difficult ones there, some that will be time consuming, expensive, perhaps a bit dreamy. I'm just going to ramble through my list, you know, list unprepared list. So I'm just going to mention what comes up, and then you can poke holes in it. You you can you can say, hey, Nick.
Nick:That doesn't make any sense or or, you know, have your counterpoint. But I think that the biggest thing to do best thing to do is to have more real life involvement. So I did a four year design education. I did two internships during those four years. Both were, I think, like, fifteen or sixteen weeks total, so just over a quarter.
Nick:I would like to see that doubled. You know, I I would do way more internships because I remember doing my first internship after the first month, I was like, wow. I've learned x, like, 10 times as much in these first few weeks compared to the two years prior in school. Like, it was a a big eye opener. The challenge there being that you have to find the right company.
Nick:You need there need to be enough companies willing to, you know, invest into an intern because the intern requires time. It's probably not going to do the best job. So a senior has to correct the work and, you know, so that's expensive. It's very useful because then you also, as an intern, you have a way in for after school perhaps to get hired. So, you know, so that's one thing.
Nick:I would like the teachers in school to be actual design professionals. I remember from my my school days, we had a lot of university professors who were just, you know, washed out professionals. Like, they didn't want to do the job anymore, so then they go to teach, you know, and then they mostly talk about their achievements from the nineties. You know? It's not it's not really like, they've been out of the field for so long that, you know, the the credibility is isn't as good as you want it to be.
Nick:And then, you know, just to continue this, I would also add more, you know, guest speakers if possible. Actual designers. I would actually this host, like, a ninety minute presentation or a workshop for a school, like, I think two or three years ago, you know, just to tell them about my experience on the job. I think it's lots of fun to do, and that would be very helpful.
Tyler:Yeah. That sounds like Would you like, based on what you just said on, like, your your your most recent and the last point, like, the internship is, like, you you found was very useful. Would it be useful to have the teacher as part of that process as well? Because, like, gen generally, if you're doing an internship, you're kind of plopped into a company, and then you're kind of you're managed by the people in the company, and then you're basically reporting back. Like, would it be more ideal to have, a teacher be able to kind of help the students as well as kind of getting feedback from the business as well?
Nick:Yeah. I I think that should be a, a three way or three party situation. I think a teacher should come by the office, like, every every four weeks or whatever. And, also, a the intern should be able to to message or call the teacher. Like, hey.
Nick:I'm stuck here. What would you do there? Like, that kinda kinda stuff. I wouldn't just send the the the student on their way and then good luck and goodbye and see you in six months. I I don't I don't think that's the way.
Nick:Also, because you have to check that the company isn't just abusing the intern as a cheap a form of cheap labor. You know? So, yeah, I would involve the teacher. You know? So that's that's all about like, all the things I mentioned, it's all about connecting school to the real world, but then also in school itself.
Nick:In the first three months of my education, and we're talking about 2011. Now I I did school from 2011 until 2015. I had Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign in the first quarter, and then in the second quarter, we did HTML, CSS, JavaScript. And those six months were the only months where we actually learned a tool or a framework, and I think that's a good thing. Like, I don't think it's important.
Nick:Well, well, a little bit. You know? Three or six months of Figma education or cursor education, depending on the direction you're you're going into, is enough. And I then I would then say that everything you learn or everything you spend time on after those first few months is all about how to run a project, how to sell your decisions, all that kind of stuff that we talked about when many episodes already.
Tyler:I think that's a good point. Like like, the connection between like, you had mentioned, like, the connection between the school and the real world. Like, I think it's very easy for a school to kind of have a curriculum, and then it become outdated, especially now since, like, things are changing rather quickly. But if they were, like, integrated into the establishment that their students were interning at, they'd get that feedback loop there, I think. And then they get like, okay.
Tyler:Here's what our students are actually doing. Let me let us, like, update our curriculum to make it more reflective of what they're actually gonna be jumping into.
Nick:Do do you have any thoughts why that that outdatedness is there?
Tyler:I think it it probably requires a lot of work. Like, it's not it sound like you're it's a reg like, school is, like, a constantly evolving thing. Like, it's not like you're selling your product, then you can build it once, and then and then you keep selling it. It's you're when you're in school, you're selling education that's constantly evolving with, like, the times and the industries that and as industries evolve as well. If you're in an ideal world, your curriculum should change every year.
Tyler:Like, you should have what's working now, and then once so let's say you you kick off the year, you have your students or, like, depending on how long the the the program is. But let's let's say it was a year program. So you kick off the year. They you have your curriculum, and then at the end, they're doing their internships, and then you're gathering information of what they're doing on the job. And then you it's like a feedback loop to what you're being taught.
Tyler:So you're constantly at least being relatively up to date with what you're teaching your students versus if you're if you don't have that connection point. So if you don't have, to your point, speakers coming to school, talking about what's happening in the real world, getting in getting reports from where students are interning at. You're just gonna have this siloed enterprise where it's guessing what's happening in the real world.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. So then it it actually has has multiple benefits. You know, the the being connected to the real world, it's it's useful for students, but also for the teachers to stay in the loop.
Tyler:Mhmm. Exactly. Like, they're they're gonna be the teachers as well are gonna be held accountable, I think, a bit more. Because if they're connected to their like, to the business via their student, and if they're teaching their students something and they're getting constant pushback from, like, the from from their employer, then there's obvious, like there's a there's a tell there. There's a signal that that what they're telling the student is incorrect.
Tyler:Yeah. Well, they need to adjust something there.
Nick:It also makes me think about, like, when you are a researcher in a university, at a certain level, I think you're required to also teach. Mhmm. I've seen that on TV. I'm not even sure if that's if it's the case in real life. But I think I've seen that somewhere where you like, if you are a you know, you're researching four days a week, then the fifth day, you have to give a class, you know, be a teacher to, you know, some of the students in school.
Nick:Perhaps that should be the other way around for teachers, the design teachers. So when you are teaching full time Mhmm. You know, you're required to do a project, any type of project once every quarter or once every school year.
Tyler:Oh, that's a good one.
Nick:You know, just some boots on the ground type thing. So just that you're aware of the things that are happening outside of your classroom.
Tyler:That's actually a really good idea because that that's what, like, dentists do anyways. When dentists are in, like, they graduate and they have a certificate, like, they have to take keep up with their like, what's evolving in the industry. So it's not like they're just they have their practice. They continue. They have to go to conferences.
Tyler:They have to do certain things. So that's a really
Nick:Oh, interesting.
Tyler:That's a really good point, like, keep them updated as well. And then, like, on the same lines, I think it'd be super valuable for like, because teaching what you know helps you learn as well. Right? So I think for the students so let's say in your case, you had, like, a four year program or a three year program. You can have the students teach.
Tyler:If they graduate and go to the second year, they can teach what they've learned to the first year. So it kind of concretizes what they're what they've learned. Yeah. That's Which one? So it's a constant feedback loop from the teachers to your point and then also from the students as well.
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:I they they didn't call me my university. They they haven't called me in the ten years since graduation. It's also interesting to see that if I look at my year in school, like everyone who's graduated, lots and lots of people are doing something completely different now. You know? And I'm I don't want to say that it's a design thing, but I think just in general, like, father has worked for thirty three years at the same company.
Nick:He still is. But I think our generation, you know, we're more or less the same age, you know, same phase of our life, I would say. I think for our generation, it's job hopping, but even career hopping is far more common. Not sure where I'm going with this, but just something I noticed. When you look at, you know, design graduates, I'm I'm one of the last few people from the twenty fifteen class that's still designing.
Tyler:And is it that they're switching to completely different careers, or is it they're just starting their own companies? Because that's a good that's
Nick:Different things. Like, out of design, like, and out of tech even.
Tyler:Because I was gonna push for the clear transition. There's a clear transition pass from designer to founder or to Mhmm. It doesn't have to be in tech. Like, if you wanted to start your the skills you learn on a day to day basis to being a designer transfer very well to, like, a business owner, even if it's outside of tech in general.
Nick:Yeah. Well, know To your point, I I knew someone.
Tyler:Yeah. Go
Nick:for For example, like, my education, by the way, it was very, very broad. Like, you you did we did design marketing and programming all in one, and then halfway through, you pick a direction. So I went to the design direction. Someone else I knew went the marketing direction, and now they work in construction, you know, and then not marketing for a construction company, no actual construction work.
Tyler:Yeah. That's fair.
Nick:You know, that, I mean, that's a big jump. Like, that's what I said earlier. I really meant, like, they were they are really out of the field. Like, not a natural progression. Just complete one eighty degree turn going somewhere else.
Tyler:Yes. Yes, sir. It reminds me of someone a developer I used to work with now owns a you know the show American Ninja Warriors where there's, a giant obstacle course? So someone was a develop a senior developer and then started a ninja warrior training company. Yeah.
Tyler:That's great. So so not a designer, but, like, a a a still a transition. Mhmm. Though there's probably maybe I'm blind to it. There's probably a good there's still regardless, I think there's still skills that you can transfer from one to the other, I imagine, because you're having a different perspective of how another industry or companies work, and then you're you and then you're seeing how the existing industry and the new industry you've talked to works, maybe there's optimizations there.
Tyler:Yeah. I'd imagine. Unless you're, like, transitioning from a designer to bricklayer. I don't know. There's only so much that could be transferred in that case.
Nick:Yeah. Well, let let's call it, you know, office work, stuff you do on a chair and in a conference room. I think if you are a successful designer, you can be a successful marketer too or a recruiter or a founder just because you understand how any project works. Like, I think sometimes we are also making things too hard on ourselves by saying, like, we have this unique way of doing design, five steps, double diamond, all these kind of, you know, diagrams. But, basically, it's just understanding a problem, coming up with an idea, and a validation slash selling that idea.
Nick:And then on repeat.
Tyler:It made me think of like, I just had an idea. Like, on the lines of, like, our like, how we would curate the educational space, What if the tuition or the majority of the tuition was sent to an to one individual? So you it's basically like a mentoring program, but you'd be paired from the school. So, okay. I'm not gonna teach you anything.
Tyler:I'm just gonna pair you with this person who works at a company. You're gonna be his intern. The benefits of the person or the business is that we're paying you to to help this the student, and they get to learn directly from that person. Yeah. So it's almost like school was a matchmaking service or like a in that kind of way where it's like, okay.
Tyler:My job is to find you a mentor in a industry that you potentially wanna work in, and you're gonna learn everything from that person who's working on the job. And then you're essentially paying to to it's just it's just basically the same business model as as as a coach. But it's for a longer period of time, and it's more thought through.
Nick:Is it combined with any type of, you know, return to school days where where you have some theory, or is it
Tyler:all just the matchmaking? It could be I am I'm thinking, like, a seventy thirty split. So, like, there are some, like I think the 30 would be in school theory. So maybe you can have you can ramp them up with, like, the theory of in that 30% bucket, And then the rest is just matching them. Okay.
Tyler:I'm just gonna give you what you need as, like, a baseline, and then I'm gonna match you with this industry professional. And then they're gonna carry the the the load just because you're gonna be embedded into the business immediately.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I like that idea. I think it will be very helpful. And then I think the responsibility of the school is is curation.
Nick:Like, it's we're not just going to pair you with any type of company. Like, a company has to be checked for design maturity and willingness to invest time into a student.
Tyler:And also yeah. And part of that would probably be being very thoughtful. Like, from the student's perspective is what industry or type of work would you like to do. So, like, oh, I would love to be a designer in, I don't know, for, Facebook, whatever, or some kind of social media app. You choose that, and then we'll find you a social media company where you can be mentored by someone who who works directly in that company.
Tyler:Yeah. Nice.
Nick:I think that's that's a good one because that will also solve one of the big problems that I encounter, you know, reading online, but also speaking to people. If I summarize this this common problem that I hear, it's always I have done this thing with this thing being, you know, completing a boot camp or creating my first personal project. Now was. You know? And then the secondary question being, did I do this right so far?
Nick:Mhmm. You know, and what's next? Like, I think that's that's the the summary. And then they come to me looking, you know, looking for a a mentor or a coach to help them, you know, to to basically guide them into the right direction. Like, okay.
Nick:You've done this thing. You know, ask the right questions. What did you like? What didn't you like? What did you struggle with?
Nick:Okay. Well, based on my experience and the things you just told me, I think your next step should be, you know, this thing. That would be solved if you are like, you're sitting with your idea, if you're you've if you're connected to someone on the job, because you can always ask them those questions because that's basically what they're there for. Like, they have their real life experience. You can shadow them on the job.
Nick:So, yeah, that that makes me very enthusiastic about that idea. Yeah. University matchmaking service.
Tyler:I think there's a I was trying to poke holes in it. Well, I think one problem, but that might be solved I have a problem and solution. So one problem that that I'm that I'm seeing also from people that I mentor is that they're in situations where I'm mentoring them on how to, like, navigate the current place that that they're working at, like how to level up. But when I sometimes I'll in one instance, I discovered that the place the person works at is, lack of a better word, not ideal. So they're not doing things correctly regardless of how that looks like.
Tyler:So in a situation like that where, I don't know, they're not doing any re not well, they're not doing any research whatsoever. It's just like CEO to designer, go build and then ship, no validation. Let's say or some kind of more egregious version of that. If the if they if the school finds that that's the case, they could be the accountability layer. It's like, okay.
Tyler:You're not learning what you should be learning. Let me find you another company. So there's, like, accountability from both ends. So it's not like, hey. I'm the mentor.
Tyler:I'm getting paid to teach the student. I'm also being held accountable by the education to to protect the student so that there's there's a happy ecosystem there.
Nick:Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's true. That that's the that's the risk now as a as a university or as a school Yeah.
Nick:Give away a bit you give away your control a little bit. There's some risk there of it not being a good fit. And so may maybe the matchmaking mostly works for, like, extended internships, like a one year period, perhaps not for a four year project or a four year education. Sorry.
Tyler:Right.
Nick:Yeah. Because I have I've never been at one company four years or longer.
Tyler:Sounds very
Nick:I think in yeah.
Tyler:That seems like the industry standard.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that's what that's what I mean. Like, it's not because there's always fighting and brawling going on, but just because it's less common these days. Like, startups go under, companies get acquired, budgets run out, that kind of stuff. So perhaps the university matchmaking is mostly for a a twelve month maximum.
Nick:Yep. Or maybe a a or that's something you could also do with that seventy thirty split where you have a extended period at a company, then you have a learning moment in school, let's say three months, and then you go for another twelve man moment sorry, twelve month period to a new company, you know, switch things around.
Tyler:That's actually a good idea. Because also, like because also, if you pick an industry that you think you like, you have an opportunity to let's say you have you get an opportunity to intern at three different companies, you would pick three different industries. Like Yeah. Who's who's to say working at Facebook or Instagram that you would like it? Maybe you're more apt for, like, a government job.
Tyler:Maybe you're the one person who likes that. So being able to being able to kind of dip your toes in, like, maybe different industries to kind of see like, there's some experimentation there. Like, you don't have to love the first industry that you picked.
Nick:Yeah. And and it's it's never going to be the way you think it's going to be by just looking at the company's website. Like, I've spent over a year at a company where I didn't even want to apply because I just didn't think well, they they sent me a message. I looked at their website. I was like, no.
Nick:It's not for me. Then I went on their call anyway, and I had a wonderful connection with the person I was speaking to. Like, felt like we were best friends from the first minute, you know, that type of connection. So that was a positive, unexpected change. And then, also, I I I have done some government work where I was very happy.
Nick:And then the other way around applied is has happened too, where I was like, yeah. This is going to be great. And after a month, I was like, help. Take me away. You know?
Nick:So with that in mind, I think it's it's good to have multiple of these matchmaking moments during your entire education period.
Tyler:Yeah. That's a good one. I think we might have solved it. Yeah. Now we the next step, start our own school.
Tyler:Start the matchmaking process.
Nick:Yep. Yeah. I I think it's getting very close to to us becoming recruiters.
Tyler:True. That's an interesting avenue.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Not to say that I'd like to take it, but that's that's interesting.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Follows the same line. Yeah. I have to I imagine you have Yeah? Yeah. What's what's stopping you?
Nick:You you you Being too busy with with design work. You know? But every now every now and then, I get a question like, hey. Do you do you know someone? You know?
Nick:Yes. Then, yeah, I can post on social media. Like, hey. Yeah. I know someone.
Nick:And then you get a few replies, and then you just forward them, but there's no curation there. Mhmm. But I feel like I've been in design long enough to be able to curate if something's going to be a right fit, yes or no, and then you can ask money for it. But I I just don't have the time and energy to to start yet another experiment. You know?
Nick:So that's that's what I wanted to say. What did you want to say as we started being happy and shouting things at the same time?
Tyler:No. I was gonna say but you answered it that. Like, when if you're a recruiter, I imagine it would be beneficial to have worked in the industry for a while. I I can't imagine that you're just you jump into the recruiting space and not being a a technical person. If you're yeah.
Tyler:Let's say you're hiring for, like, all roles, so PMs, engineers, and designers. I imagine you'd have like, it'd be beneficial to have been one first and then start the recruiting to have a better tell.
Nick:Yeah. I I'm not sure about you, but I get phone calls and messages from recruiters every now and then. Like, it feels like just based on the number of calls I get, it feels like the market is picking up again. But what I wanted to say is that I you notice right away if the recruiter you're talking to is or has a design background. Yes or no.
Nick:And I always feel more like I'm more likely to be open when I notice that the recruiter is, quote, unquote, one of us. You know?
Tyler:Yes. Yes.
Nick:Because I I feel like yeah. Well well, then you can speak more freely. You can just mention your UX terms, you know, your your keywords and all the things that they will then understand because they are or have been a designer. When I speak to a nondesigner recruiter, most of the conversation is me explaining what I do, and then I can hear them go through the list of requirements.
Tyler:Yes. Yes. Yes. You used Sketch or and or Figma or the Adobe Suite?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Pixels. Right? Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You know? Nothing wrong with that, by the way. I mean, I I think that's that's would be a great episode, and that's something we can now add to our episode automation system that we should have a recruiter mastermind super episode where we just talk about you're a designer and here's how to successfully work with recruiters.
Nick:And then also the other way around, you're a recruiter, and here's how to successfully work with these hires.
Tyler:I like it. I like it.
Nick:I will put it in in our channel. Yeah. And then it gets automated and put into the right places all the all all on its own.
Tyler:Well, we we should speak more about your automation wizardry, but maybe that's for another episode. You're you're killing it.
Nick:Well, that that's something I've been thinking about when we're talking now. I think it's quite relevant for our, you know, education talk. That's that's what that we're having right now is that I think it would be super smart for schools, teachers, also students, and designers to be very open and and to to listen and and view a lot of, you know, content online outside of your bubble. Mhmm. You know?
Nick:And and really have a strong filter. Like, do not listen to the the UX is death type of people, you know, game changer, exclamation point. But there are some some rather silent or less shouting experts, And and the whole automation stuff I learned by following an automation expert about Zapier and all that kind of stuff. And then you will notice at some point some patterns like, hey. They all talk about this thing.
Nick:Let's try it out. Oh, that's quite useful. But I'm not sure how yet. Then you park it, and at some point, you run into something where you're like, This guy talks about Zapier. You can connect things and automate things.
Nick:Now I'm posting a video every two weeks. Maybe I can blah blah blah, and the ball starts rolling. You know, I think that's a smart thing to do because you will figure out new things that way. And automation wizardry, as you call it, is one of my favorite things to do. And just because I learned it a little bit, you know, I'm not an expert at all, but it does help me by freeing up more design time.
Tyler:There you go.
Nick:The subscribe to this show page that I showed you before this recording, I was able to put an hour of my time in it today because, well, in part because some things I do are now automated. You know? So otherwise, it would have been evening work or weekend work, and realistically speaking, would would have been I'll do this at some point, but I'll actually never do it type work.
Tyler:You know? Exactly. In the never do it bucket.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the the it's the gray zone of the or the how do you call it? The death zone of priority.
Nick:Like, it's kind of important, but there's always that one thing that's slightly more important, and then that thing will always be the number two on your list, but you're never going to get to it. I don't want too much
Tyler:want to those. Trust me.
Nick:Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think we all do. But I don't want to end this episode on that type of sad note. You know, I don't think that's our vibe, you know, the the the thing that we want to do.
Nick:Maybe as a as a final question, like, remember that the thing I mentioned earlier, like, I've done my boot camp. Now what? What what what would you say? Do you have, like, one super important thing that everyone must do at that point?
Tyler:Yeah. I think it goes like, it's a simple one. You whatever you learn, apply it, because learning a bunch of theory gets you nowhere unless you apply it. And also once you've graduated or finished your education, it's never finished. It's a constant learning battle.
Tyler:So be prepared to do a lot more learning, not just on the job, but also outside the job. The best designers I've seen are constantly learning to your point. If you're learning automation, like, taking courses, getting mentorship especially is super important. So it's like learning doesn't end when you graduate.
Nick:That's true. Yeah. And then I'd I I like that. I would have probably said the same thing, but just to not repeat you and have a second thing to add to the list, I would say that what I would do at the same time is learn from other people, and you can do so by being bold and, you know, just message it send a message to someone. Like, hey.
Nick:You're working at this company. I've been following the company, and I think it's very interesting. And I'm just curious to learn. Can you tell me a bit more about this? You know, some people will ignore you, but those who won't ignore you, they will send you a video or a blog post or invite you for a virtual coffee.
Nick:And then once they do, I would always ask at the end, like, hey. Who else should I talk to? And then they're more more most likely likely, they're very happy to mention one or two more more people, you know, that you can also talk to. And then one becomes 22 becomes 4, etcetera. You really build your your list of connections that way and then ask a ton of questions when you can because then you will learn from them.
Nick:I think that's that's a good thing to do in addition to what you said.
Tyler:That's solid advice. Yeah. And also, it's transferable. If you do a job for a client, ask them. Yep.
Tyler:Do you have any recommendations for anyone else in your network? It's a transferable skill.
Nick:Yeah. Just, you know, just one example that happened over the weekend and and and yesterday is someone I've been following for months, perhaps even a year. We talk every now and then in exactly the same way as I recommend it, just sending a message. Hey. How are you doing?
Nick:I think that's interesting. Here's my advice. What you know, all that kind of stuff. I'm going to do a branding design project for his company now. Nice.
Nick:Nice. And he remembered me from a few messages we did months ago. So it's a long term play. Like, if you need a job today, this week, that's probably not the thing to invest your time in. But if you know that you will be in school for two more years or six months or something in between, like, you know, a little bit longer, start today because then, like it happened to me, you know, a few months down the road, something like that might happen.
Nick:So it's not generic advice. It's something that happens, you know, for me as a freelancer every now and then that someone just comes back to me like, hey, Nick. I remember you. Let's work together. Yeah.
Nick:I mean, that's almost a full hour on education. And I think I'm very happy that the sad pattern I thought I spotted wasn't wasn't as as severe as as I thought. So I'm very grateful for that, and thank you for for being the the happy note in in that dark pattern I found. It's not as bad as I thought. And I'm I'll think so.
Nick:Very very hopeful again.
Tyler:And I think on the line as a teaser for the next episode.
Nick:Oh,
Tyler:yeah. I think on the lines of doing real work or doing actual work to get better, I think we will be going through an exercise together of picking a random challenge and doing some live work together. So working through a particular problem and coming up with a solution. So putting our minds, our our working hats on on that episode.
Nick:That's going to be great. There's something new. Like, not just talking about a problem, but actually trying to solve a problem, like, right there on the spot. That's going to be very interesting. We have a new website or, well, a new page on the website.
Nick:That's designtablepodcast.com, you know, the one you know, subscribe. And on that page, you will find links to all the channels that we have, you know, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, but you can also subscribe But once every two weeks that's a promise. Once every two weeks, we will send over a notification when a new episode is about to go live just to keep you in the loop. So make sure to visit that, designtablepodcast.com/subscribe, and also subscribe and comment on all the platforms that we just mentioned. By the way, we have our first five star review on Spotify.
Nick:Did you There
Tyler:you go. I didn't see it. I'm gonna check it immediately after this call.
Nick:Yeah. So the but the first five star review on Apple Podcasts is still up for grabs. So, dear listeners, if you feel like being the one, the first one, feel free to to do feel free to do so and let us know. We'll do a shout out. Perfect.
Nick:Till next
Tyler:episode. Till
Nick:next episode.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.