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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Pinaki Kathiari (00:00)
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Between the Seasons, the mini series from Why Does It Feel So Wrong to be Human at Work. I'm Pinaki Kathiari and with me is our producer, Bree Bartos. Say hi,
Bree Bartos (00:11)
Hi everyone.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:12)
And joining us today is as our special guest is Lottie Bazley Internal Communications Manager and
podcast.
host
So welcome Lottie.
Lottie (00:21)
Thank you so much for having me. And we were just saying before that this is the first time I've been a guest on a podcast. So I'm feeling the pressure now that I'm like, I have to be the interesting one. Where normally it's like, I just let you guys do all of the talking, but no, I'm really pleased to be here. So thank you very much for having me.
Pinaki Kathiari (00:36)
Absolutely, you are the interesting one here. So you don't have to work too hard at that. But yeah, for today's conversation, we're talking about communication at work. There's a thing that we do at work where we're one self at home and then we're another self at home. And we do this code switching all the time. And it's a kind of a...
Lottie (00:39)
No pressure.
Pinaki Kathiari (01:02)
natural phenomenon, but at the same time it takes a very distinct thing at work and it's really funny about that. So I wanted to spend some time talking about that and getting into that, how it happens, why it happens, and just how could we, should we handle that moving forward. But I was thinking before we get into that Lottie, maybe the one thing interesting about you is you are
kind of two roles are the internal communications manager there, as well as the podcast host And we were kind of talking about that earlier. We were thinking like, is that kind of like the Kara and Supergirl type of role? you have like the, is this like an alter ego thing? How do you, how do you one manage both? And what is it like kind of having both at the organization?
Lottie (01:45)
You
Yeah, it's a great question and I will not be mad at being compared to Supergirl, of course. But yeah, it really is, it's interesting you say, because I think, and I've been obviously thinking a lot about communication at work, knowing that we were recording this today. But I definitely have these kind of, like you say, you have your kind of home persona, you have your work persona, but even within different roles or whoever it is that you're speaking to, you have kind of the right persona or like the acceptable persona for each one.
Pinaki Kathiari (02:23)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (02:25)
and I'd never, I did when I was at university, I hosted a radio show with my best mate, but that was very much like, we just played nineties music and it was kind of fun and no one really listened to it. We just did it for, for the fun. and then someone offered me the podcast host and I was like, my gosh, I haven't really ever done anything like this. That's like serious. That isn't just me and my mate doing a radio show, you know? and I really had to like hype myself up for it. And I'm quite,
Pinaki Kathiari (02:49)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (02:54)
I'm quite a chatty person. I'm kind of an extroverted introvert. So it's something that I maybe have to dial up a little bit more. But when you're doing internal comms, you know, you can kind of think about stuff more. You can ponder over, you can read it, you can reread it. You can get other people to check it for you. But when you're doing a podcast or something, it's just like, okay, well, what I'm saying is what I'm saying. And I can't kind of check myself and am I speaking too much? Am I not saying enough?
Pinaki Kathiari (03:18)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (03:23)
But I really had to like dial it up to do this kind of podcast thing because they're two very different mediums. think my personality hopefully comes through in both, but yeah, it's a very different kind of style of me, I guess you would say.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:40)
Yeah, one of these days I'm gonna work at so I could get the internal comms version of you and see what that's like.
Lottie (03:48)
It's also
like working as an internal comms person at an internal comms company. There's this whole like inception thing and it's great because we have great engagement with our people because they all know loads about internal comms, but it's also a double-edged sword because everyone thinks that they're like the expert in internal comms. So there's also this whole extra layer within that that we're dealing with as a team. So yeah, it's an interesting one.
Bree Bartos (03:53)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (03:53)
Yeah.
Yes.
It is. And I think it's fascinating that actually, I want to back up for a second. You said you were a DJ or in the disc jockey sense of DJ. Was that like how close was that before you started the podcast?
Lottie (04:30)
Many, many years ago, so it was like I say, it was when I was at uni and yeah, was very much an aspiring DJ rather than an official one. But I think there's definitely some elements that kind of come into it. And when I was at uni, I was studying English and journalism and, you know, a lot of that kind of translate into the world of comms as well. So there are definitely some parallels.
Pinaki Kathiari (04:32)
Okay, got you.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah,
I had to go off topic there for a second because two reasons. One, I am doing a talk right now with Monique Zytnick for the IABC World Conference, drawing the parallel between communications or internal communications and DJing at a nightclub. And so, yeah, so that's so this very interesting and there's a lot of interesting parallels. One of the things that I realized while I was writing this is
Bree Bartos (05:08)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (05:09)
my gosh.
Pinaki Kathiari (05:21)
When I was in-house at a large enterprise global communications function, we were at a retreat and realized that there were a lot of my colleagues that were former DJs, either in the records or the disc jockey DJs, just kind of playing music, which is pretty interesting and fascinating how I just anecdotally know how kind of folks come from one to the other. Which is fantastic.
Lottie (05:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a fun
one. Love that. I didn't realise there were so many of us out there.
Pinaki Kathiari (05:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (05:54)
Yeah, Pinaki's
a DJ. I don't know if you know that.
Pinaki Kathiari (05:57)
I would you call. Yes, I would you call the living room DJ. So I have my like living room set up right over there. I actually I actually broke it apart to do this set up here for a second. But.
Lottie (05:57)
I was, I was good to ask.
It'll set up that.
well I assume that it's
a Friday and you'll be putting it straight back together afterwards.
Pinaki Kathiari (06:12)
Yeah. man, I
can't wait. I start itching and stuff, but yeah, I'm not that great, but I enjoy doing it. And maybe one day you'll hear some beats and stuff like that. But speaking of like that, that switching roles, right? We're talking about, you know, you being Supergirl and Kara over there. And, you know, it's interesting how like, you know, the podcast you has your voice and it's just you out there and the internal comms voice.
is like you're saying you like kind of writing it and have time to kind of think it through. And I think that like when you start bringing those two together, it turns into a really powerful thing because like now behind your words, there's an authenticity being that like this was not pre-rehearsed. We didn't come up with this. didn't go through several rounds of reviews. This is just you talking. Like have you found that kind of melding of the two since you've started the podcast?
Lottie (06:46)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I think so, yeah. And it's, I don't want to be dramatic and be like, you know, I found my own voice, often at times, you know. Yeah, yeah. And I think also, you know, a lot of time in internal comms, if we're, you know, there's like a competition we're running, for example, now it's like an engagement competition where that can be my voice as the internal comms and engagement team. But a lot of the time in internal comms, you're writing.
Pinaki Kathiari (07:18)
There is a finding of your voice, think, because I had to do the same too, I think. yeah.
Bree Bartos (07:20)
Yeah.
Lottie (07:38)
your ghostwriting for someone, or you're sending out communications that has somebody else's name at the bottom. And I think it's also tricky sometimes to, to be putting stuff out there when you feel like you're, I mean, maybe it's somebody else's authentic voice. It's not your authentic voice, but you're still kind of pitching in and helping this person find their authentic voice. But there's obviously some of your influence going in there as well. So I guess there's like another whole section of it where it's like a
Pinaki Kathiari (07:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lottie (08:08)
it's a bit me, but it's also, you know, if I'm ghost writing for you, it's a bit you and then it's a bit HR if they have to come in and read it as well. I mean, I feel like I'm sounding like I'm having some sort of identity crisis now. I promise you I'm not.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:17)
Yeah.
No, no, I think, well,
I think when it comes to internal comms, I think there is a bit of identity crisis because we do, I wouldn't say crisis, but there's an identity thing because you're kind of, you're, you're setting up a story and a journey and it involves different people. And I kind of conjecture that this work that we do from like podcasting and getting the authentic voices out there, having that practice allows us to
Lottie (08:32)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:48)
coach or guide people who don't have that practice. So as the executive or the CHRO or whatnot needs to communicate, trying to interject that live authentic voice into the conversation rather than it just being an email or something like that actually probably makes a difference in that way. At least that's what I'm finding as far as communicators would do. There's a little bit of cheerleading and
Lottie (08:51)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (09:17)
hyping people up throughout that, I find as well. But yeah, what we were talking about earlier, as far as how people communicate in their home lives and then when they come to work, how does that shift? Do you notice that shift? And do you notice that it's starting to blend more and more? How are you seeing it on your side?
Lottie (09:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think, I think so. And I think it definitely depends organization to organization. Of course, the place that I work now and the place I worked before were both startups. And I think, you know, there's that element of energy and you know, everyone's just trying to learn as they go along and people don't, you know, that they're comfortable to make mistakes and you kind of have this safety of, you know, we learn as we go type thing. So I think it would definitely depend on the organization.
Pinaki Kathiari (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (10:10)
and the person as well, you know, like there are just some people that are more comfortable being themselves or, you mentioned masking or code switching even that, you know, some people, start in different places than others as to, know, how they can, how they can show up at work. forgive me. forgot the actual question. How can we just remind me?
Pinaki Kathiari (10:33)
No, all
good. We're just talking about like kind of if you've noticed that the difference between of that code switching, is it kind of like coming together more or are we kind of drifting more apart? Like are we kind of, are the roles that we're playing in and out of work more authentic or are they kind of getting more polarized being like I'm a robot at work and a human at home type of thing?
Lottie (10:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (11:03)
masking
Lottie (11:03)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (11:03)
lesser more lately.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:05)
That's probably the best way
Lottie (11:05)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:06)
to say it. Thank you, Bree. That's why she's our producer.
Lottie (11:07)
Cool. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, I think, as I say, it kind of depends on the organisation or the person, but I also think I was again, doing a bit of research before we were having this conversation today. And I think there's even a, know, you kind of, you're showing your emotions at work, but there's also this concept of like, there's a woman called Arlie Hochschild
Bree Bartos (11:08)
You're welcome.
Pinaki Kathiari (11:17)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (11:32)
And she has this theory and I hope I don't butcher this, but it's about emotional labor, which is that people now feel comfortable to show emotions at work or they certainly are more so than they used to be. But sometimes they're still, they're the right emotions rather than how someone is actually feeling. So for example, if I'm in a meeting and I'm presenting something, but I'm like pretending to be confident when I'm not feeling confident or
if someone
Pinaki Kathiari (11:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (12:01)
has a really bad idea, but I have to pretend that it's a great idea because that's what's warranted at the time. Or if some appear gets a promotion that you don't think is well deserved, but you have to be happy about that for them, know? So there's even this, guess, of like meta part of it where you, you know, you don't have to mask so much at work, but is that actually how you're truly feeling? Or is this just this kind of expected?
emotion of you which I thought was like a super interesting concept.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and it's interesting how we
could understand that we can have two emotions at the same time, at the same time, and both can be true, because we could feel genuinely happy for someone, but be disappointed that maybe they got the spot we didn't get, or something to that effect. So it's kind of like kind of honing into that. What are you thinking, Bree, on your side as far as kind of seeing the masks and the human at work?
Lottie (12:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (12:58)
Sorry Jarvis, decided he needed to also give his input when you asked. But I was thinking like as you were talking, we really are expected to be positive more often than not when we're at work. So like you were saying like...
Lottie (13:01)
We have a cat!
Pinaki Kathiari (13:01)
Yes.
You
Bree Bartos (13:15)
we have to be celebrating if someone got promoted. We're expected to be like, oh yeah, good job. We're expected to be constantly positive, which isn't a bad thing. But also I wanted to say, I think how much we mask at work also depends on the culture that that company has. Because I've worked for places before where it didn't feel like...
Pinaki Kathiari (13:21)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (13:33)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (13:40)
you could come to work and really be human at work. You couldn't really share what was bothering you and things like that. And so at those jobs, you know, I had a list of like, when I see this person, it's, hey, how's it going? How's the weather? You smile, you nod, you you like, you just have all of the things that you're supposed to say and do. Because it was a company that like, they didn't foster connection with coworkers or...
Lottie (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (13:56)
Yeah
Bree Bartos (14:06)
They didn't have care really in the culture and things like that. And so you weren't being human, you weren't being you. We were very much masking and just there to show up, get the job done, go home.
Lottie (14:09)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:18)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's strange too, because like, know, what happens in that situation is we don't get to like fully understand the context of someone. Like just for example, like the other day we started off meeting and someone in the meeting just had a, say, interesting altercation with a caretaker of their child. And that was...
Bree Bartos (14:29)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:46)
was disturbing to this person. you know, we just kind of talked about it for a few minutes. We all kind of like empathized and just to kind of understand. And then, you know, we found a way to transition back into what we were talking about. But I think that kind of like break of just acknowledging the human, the emotion and like, wow, we have this context of what you're going through emotionally as we're getting into this conversation, just at least allowed for things to.
Lottie (14:53)
Mm.
Mmm.
Bree Bartos (15:05)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:11)
to keep moving as opposed to when you're kind of holding something in, you feel guarded and you're holding this in and it could feel unnerving. But at least I was hopeful that this person had a chance to like let go, almost have a little bit of a mental palate cleanser and then kind of get into the work, which in theory should have like flowed smoother and things like that.
Lottie (15:33)
Mm-hmm. That's really good
that someone felt comfortable enough to like have that conversation. I guess you, I mean, it was a bit of a buzzword a few years ago, but like the psychological safety and you know, it's that, okay, here's, here's how I'm coming to you today. This is what I've got going on. And then you hopefully understand someone's reactions better or, you know, if, yeah, I'm very much a...
Pinaki Kathiari (15:40)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (15:44)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (15:50)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (15:56)
an oversharer at work. So I feel like if I'm coming in in a bad mood, I'm saying like, I'm in a terrible mood today, guys. So if I'm a bit short or, you know, if I'm slow at replying to Slack messages, like this is why, or I had a terrible night's sleep. So I'm going to log off early today because my brain is just not in the right place. And then you help to foster those relationships better because people understand where you're coming from and why you might be feeling a certain way. And it's that classic thing of like,
Pinaki Kathiari (15:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (15:58)
Same.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:04)
hahaha
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (16:25)
you never know what's going on in somebody's life. If someone cuts you up on the street or swears at you, I always kind of give people that grace of, I don't know what's going on in this person's day. But when you have the ability and the safety to have that conversation with people at work, how much better can your relationships get? And how much better can you collaborate on things? Because you know where this person's at.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:31)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (16:51)
I also, I feel like whenever you have that option to share what's weighing you down and what's bothering you, like when you share it, it is right, Pinaki, like you said, it's kind of a mental palate cleanse because like, know, like if something's really, really bothering me, but you know, maybe Pinaki doesn't know about it and I have like five projects I need to get done.
Lottie (17:03)
Mm.
Bree Bartos (17:12)
I'm also thinking about what's weighing me down in my personal life and bothering me. And also like, oh, I have to get all these things done. And they don't know that this thing is happening in my life right now and that it's slowing me down because I'm so anxious or caught up in it. And they expect me at 100%, but I'm not at 100%. But when you tell your manager or whoever you're working with, like, hey, just so you know, I'm not at 100%, they're like, oh, okay. Like, I'm not expecting you to get all five projects done today. Thanks for letting me know.
Lottie (17:21)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (17:42)
It's able, like whenever I'm able to open up, which I tell Pinaki all the time what's bothering me, I'm also a chronic oversharer, I love to share. But like oversharing helps me be like, okay, he knows. So like, he knows like, hey, this might not get done today, but it will get done this week. It's just gonna take me a little extra time.
Lottie (17:47)
You
Pinaki Kathiari (17:50)
You
Lottie (18:00)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (18:02)
admitting that just provides so much relief and it provides more brain space to like actually think about the work you have to do because you're less stressed about like, if this personal matter gets in the way of my work today, like XYZ might happen, but I'm also a catastrophizer and like someone with anxiety. like those, yeah, I'm very much am is so like being an oversharing, it does.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:12)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (18:19)
We're very similar, Bray.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:18)
I've never heard that word before
I like that one. Catastrophizer.
Lottie (18:25)
Tick.
Bree Bartos (18:29)
me so that people around me understand and know and I'm very grateful that I have an environment where I can tell people like, hey, this is what's going on and why I'm not just like on the ball today. And thankfully, I work in environment with people that are okay with that and understand that we're all human.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:46)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (18:48)
And it's good to live by example right now. I think sometimes I'm like, my gosh, I'm such an oversharing in a team meeting. I say something and then I'm like, my gosh, are these people just like, what's she on about? Please be quiet. Like we need to talk about work stuff. But I think if there's at least one person that's doing that, maybe not quite to the level that I am, it then opens up that like, okay, this is a safe space to talk about these things. And there might be someone else that didn't think that that was a safe place to share or they might be harboring something that.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:48)
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (19:07)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (19:14)
As soon as one person does it, kind of opens the door and especially if a manager can do it and that kind of lead by example, like we're not saying that we need everyone's, know, life stories or sub stories or whatever, but just someone to say, Hey, do know, I'm really stressed about this project. Like if my manager were to say that to me, I'd be like, wow, okay, this is a safe space. We can talk about these kinds of things.
Bree Bartos (19:25)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. And it's one of the things that I was a former in a talk I did it was the last month now. But I said, you know, what's not safe for work is talking about feelings, because it's it it you do feel like you have to like lock it in. We do work with people. We do work with clients who you know, they're feeling something right now in this moment in this meeting, but they're containing it for a quorum of everyone there because
Yeah, we want to hear about it. But there is, think, another side to it, right? Because when I think the way, Bree, you mentioned it, was like, there's something going on without getting into details or anything like that. I just want to let you know that I'm not 100 % today and this is what's happening. And then there's kind of when you start sharing, which I think is helpful, what happens is there's a kind of negativity or frustration or stress that then comes off to the
people who listen to it, right? Because you're hearing a story that hurts you. And so now we're taking it in. And so there's a kind of a, a part of the whole communication interplay that is relieving myself. Some of that stuff is going into other folks. And so we also need to wait to like, make sure that it's not heavy on other people as well. And so that's a crazy psychological trick all around communications and sharing.
Lottie (20:59)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:05)
positive and negative news and how it kind of like ripples out towards an organization. And I might be getting way meta here and stuff like that. do you ever think about that, like kind of both sides of that, like as we're sharing and communicating, that might make it a little bit more safe for work.
Lottie (21:13)
You
I think for me it's, and again, this is part of, I guess, the kind of different versions that each person has of themselves, right? I could, I'm going through the same thing. I will tell my best friend, my husband, my dad, my manager, a slightly different version of that. And I think you sort of almost do that. you know, if, if my friend's having a really bad day and I'm having a really bad day, I probably don't choose that day to be like, Hey, I also have this crazy thing that I'm dealing with that's making me.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:41)
Hmm.
Bree Bartos (21:42)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:49)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (21:54)
sad, happy, whatever the emotion is. So I think you kind of do that automatically, but it's really interesting that I've never thought about it, like consciously to be like, hmm, what should I tell my manager about what I'm going through without also, because then I guess you put pressure on someone to have like the right reaction, you know, like if someone is not used to oversharing or even just being open with their emotions that you then kind of like you say, you put that.
Pinaki Kathiari (22:12)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (22:12)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (22:17)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (22:21)
there's a bit more ownership on them to have like the right reaction. And if they don't have the right reaction, then that could also be detrimental to your relationship rather than, you know, more productive.
Pinaki Kathiari (22:28)
Mm-hmm
Which is probably where it all starts from why we were so careful of what to say at work, because at the end of the day, we have to come back and work together again. So we're trying to like create this like relationship that's very safe, stable in that way as well. Right. So it's interesting. That's why I kind of talk about it from like both perspectives, because in the other side of the fence, right, like when you come in, like you were saying earlier,
Lottie (22:41)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (22:50)
Long term.
Pinaki Kathiari (23:01)
what we were all saying earlier about, have to be happy in, in positive in certain scenario. There's, there's something about like mirror neuroning, right? Like that, that kind of brings people together, right? So as we were all in agreeance or feeling the same feelings, we're kind of drawing bonds together as well. So you can see how that kind of plays into the wanting of everyone to be excited about this.
Bree Bartos (23:15)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (23:30)
this event as well.
Lottie (23:33)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (23:35)
Yeah, think personally I need to be better at like, I have someone who will like read a really bad news article and then be like, hey, did you see that? And I'll be like, afterwards, like I do this to Pinocchio all the time. And I'll like tell him like a horrible news article I saw and like watch the like energy drain from and then I'm like, you know.
Pinaki Kathiari (23:35)
them.
Lottie (23:54)
Hahaha
Bree Bartos (23:55)
You
maybe shouldn't just like dump horrible news on people and then just be like, okay, bye. Because like that's really going to ruin their day and I'm terrible at it.
Lottie (23:57)
Ha ha.
You
Yeah, like as you say, like a...
Pinaki Kathiari (24:07)
Well, you have never ruined my
debris, just to say it out loud.
Bree Bartos (24:09)
Okay, but that's good.
Lottie (24:12)
As a catastrophizer, it's like coming in to be like, my God, have you been worried about this? Cause if you're not, absolutely should be. And why are you not? Read all of this research I've done and tell me how good you feel about yourself after.
Bree Bartos (24:16)
Yeah
Pinaki Kathiari (24:18)
Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you. Yeah.
Bree Bartos (24:20)
Yes.
I think, Lottie, we really do have the same brain, because yes.
Lottie (24:29)
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm like, I can relate, can relate.
Pinaki Kathiari (24:33)
I've been thinking a lot about the transitions into things, the transitions from fall into spring and the transition from spring into summer, et cetera. I remember reading not too long ago in Ayurveda practices that it's those transition periods that you have to be careful of. And it made me think about the transition between one topic to the next or the one thought to the next as well. And sometimes depending on when you're going from like,
here to here really fast, that could be jarring, but if you transition in stuff like that, that could be a little bit more helpful. Or at least being mindful of it has been helping me too. And even the other way around, when I'm used to Breeze saying just crazy stuff to me already now. it's all good. And I'm also used to hearing at any given point something happening, and I'm used to kind of just setting myself up for that. I think...
Bree Bartos (25:06)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (25:18)
You
Pinaki Kathiari (25:32)
I've been practicing the mental practice of going from, crap, to okay. And then there's some steps in between and there is an internal practice that I have that I'm trying to get to okay faster each time. depending on like whatever pops up in front of me, that could take a different amount of time to process through that.
Bree Bartos (25:47)
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (25:56)
The transitional thing I think is a really interesting one for me and actually something that I'm working on personally myself, because I like to say I am a bit of an oversharer and I do like to have the start of my one-to-ones with my manager or like the team meetings have a bit of that, you know, kind of, I guess, small talk, but a bit more meaningful small talk. But I'm also a very specific type of personality. I'm basically the only one that ever puts anything on our team meeting agenda because I'm like, I need to speak about this. I need to speak about this. I need to speak about
this, like I'm very ordered and structured. And I sometimes find it really difficult to go from the like my and me and my manager have a great relationship and we probably spend 80 % of our tea, like our one to ones talking about life and general stuff. But I find it really difficult to them be like, I watched the clock and I'm like, oh, we have five minutes and I actually have some quite serious work stuff that I need to talk to her about. And just finding that transitional moment of like, do we just go, okay, stop now we need to talk about.
Pinaki Kathiari (26:40)
Sounds familiar.
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (26:54)
work or like you know giving someone the space to to have that but then also being like okay well when are we going to talk about the work stuff so maybe I need to read some of the same studies that you have been because I'm terrible at that transition.
Pinaki Kathiari (27:05)
You
Bree Bartos (27:08)
We have a tendency to go off on tangents and like I've worked with Local Wisdom now since June 2025 and as of recording this in April, still less than a year. But thankfully, Pinaki and I figured out real quick how to rein ourselves back in. And it is just being like, okay, enough of that tangent. Let's go back to what we were talking about. Like we have to like actually recognize it and say out loud, hey.
Pinaki Kathiari (27:08)
man.
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (27:22)
You
Pinaki Kathiari (27:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I think that's where it is. It's kind of whenever it's like that happens. What we did was we just talked about it. Like, hey, this is something that observed happens. And here's what we could do about it. And sometimes we let it go. And sometimes we like, all right, let's go back. And we actually go back tangent by tangent to resolve the different like forks that we've created throughout it and then move forward. But I think it's a good thing because it builds this
Lottie (27:34)
Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (28:04)
It builds a better way of communicating when we just kind of really understand each other. And at the same time, we're just kind of balancing that like human side versus the business profit side. Cause the business profit side is like, you just need to be productive a hundred percent of the times. And what, what we're trying to say here is when you have this human side, like working really well, the productive side flows so much easier and it feels like you're going.
Lottie (28:08)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (28:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Lottie (28:30)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (28:32)
with the flow rather than against the flow or in any kind of different angle from the flow in that way. So maybe as we kind of wrap up this one, love to hear your thoughts and just any kind of what would help to kind of folks to be more human at work. What kind of things we think about from like transitioning and how much we could put of our authentic selves out there and whatnot. Any kind of thoughts from either of you on that one?
Lottie (28:39)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (29:03)
I was... and they looked at each other like, you go first.
Pinaki Kathiari (29:03)
I like how you both took that breath together. That was awesome. I was like, man, it was going to be like, it was going to be like surround
Lottie (29:03)
Go on, Bree. No. Yeah, like,
I'll follow you. I want to see what you have to say before.
Pinaki Kathiari (29:10)
sound. was going to love it right there. She's doing rock, scissors.
Bree Bartos (29:16)
I was gonna say like something that Pinaki and I do that I feel like really does help is, and not everyone has time for this or loves to have meetings as much as I do, but Pinaki and I, have our one-on-one every week and then we also have a coworking session that is a bit more flexible. Like if we don't have time for it, then we cancel it. But our one-on-one, that's like the agenda. These are the things we have to check off. But then our coworking session, it's like.
These are things that we can work on together or we could just like, I had this idea. Let's brainstorm. Let's talk. And sometimes we just get talking. And like you said, the ideas start flowing and we just get into a good groove. And we've also found we've tested it once out. hosted a Yappy hour with some of our coworkers because we're remote here at Local Wisdom and we're all kind of spread out. And so it's hard to connect with each other as people.
And so like just one hour where we get together and just talk, talk about things we're working on work, social media ideas, if you we have some of the thought leaders on the call and just we ended up after the first hour of just talking, everyone felt more relieved. Everyone was like, ha, it's been so busy lately. Like this was great. This was wonderful. Some of us walked away with like to do lists of like ideas for things we could create. And that was really nice. And I definitely want to do more of those in the future.
Lottie (30:25)
Mm.
Bree Bartos (30:38)
But I think just like scheduling a little bit of time to just chat really does make a difference.
Lottie (30:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. I totally agree. And I know, especially, I'm very remote from my team as well. And there's lots of people within this business that are remote. And, I mean, clearly I'm biased because I work in comms, but I think communication is the key to any relationship. So just communicate as much as you can. And totally agree with you, Bree Like, book that time in to just have a session that's just chatting. Like, there doesn't need to be an agenda. You bounce ideas off of people. You actually get to learn.
I didn't realize that Bree was into this sort of thing. And actually this project that I'm now working on, maybe I wouldn't have thought to have asked you about it before, but now I know you're interested in XYZ, which we maybe wouldn't have discovered if we were just doing the very transactional, businessy stuff. And any opportunity that you can, if you're lucky enough to have like a get together in person, because you also get to find out so much more about a person when you spend like an extended period of time with them and...
You get to see certain things that maybe you don't pick up on when you're on a, on a video call and you know, you can learn how someone's energy kind of dips. You can see how their energy goes throughout the day. If you've got a workshop rather than just, know, the 30 minutes or the hour that you spend with them. Um, so yeah, I'm a big, big fan of just communication. I don't think, well, maybe you can over communicate, but on a personal level, I think it's just about making sure that you, you know, you have that person that you can talk to and if they don't feel comfortable.
Bree Bartos (31:50)
you
Lottie (32:09)
opening up so much, you know, maybe don't do it yourself. Maybe stop showing people bad news stories and putting all of your trauma on them. It's a balance. Yeah.
Pinaki Kathiari (32:12)
Mm-hmm.
Everything little by little. It reminds me
Bree Bartos (32:19)
You gotta read the room.
Pinaki Kathiari (32:23)
of a book I read a long time ago, a book on etiquette called How to Be a Gentleman. what it said was your kind of goal is to just keep everybody in the room as comfortable as possible. And so I kind of think about it through that lens of like, you know, sometimes comfortable is letting someone...
let their feelings out, sometimes comfortable is letting my feelings out and sometimes comfortable is just kind of balancing how much I'm putting off and taking in and things like that. So it's interesting that above all else, it's just being mindful of what's going on in your mind while everything is kind of going around is probably the practice that I've been putting together or keeping at play.
Lottie (32:56)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:14)
Yeah, with that said, don't know if you have any last final words. We're going to wrap up this side of the podcast, but any final words between you, Lottie or Bree? Any tidbits of wisdom or bits of wisdom to share?
Lottie (33:28)
I feel like that's too much pressure. I'll let Bree go.
Bree Bartos (33:32)
Yeah, I feel like we're
good. I
Pinaki Kathiari (33:34)
Yeah, I think we are.
Bree Bartos (33:34)
think this was a great conversation. Thank you so much, Lottie.
Pinaki Kathiari (33:38)
Yeah, I'll close out and we'll go into the second phase of this. Are we doing like the Reddit read? Right on. So yeah, I'm going to just close out this one and then we'll open up the second one, which will be more serendipitous. so, before we close out, Lottie, just can you just share with our listeners where they could find some more of your work, and what you're doing
Lottie (33:38)
Thank you so much for having me.
Bree Bartos (33:43)
Reddit. Yep.
Lottie (34:05)
Yes, absolutely. So you can feel free to add me on LinkedIn.
Bree Bartos (34:09)
and we'll have the links in the episode description.
Pinaki Kathiari (34:12)
Absolutely. So, Lottie, thank you so much for joining us today. As always, just appreciate conversations with Kara and Supergirl. So, and thank you for our listeners to tuning into this week's Between the Seasons from Bada's It Feels So Wrong. If you enjoy the conversations, you know what to do, hit that subscribe button and do all the things that...
that we asked you to do. We'll be back next week with another short and honest Between the Seasons episode. And so we'll see you next time. Thank you, everybody.
Bree Bartos (34:48)
Perfect. You know, you even kind of look like Millie Alcock who was casted as Kara in the 2025 film of Superman.
Pinaki Kathiari (34:52)
Yes!
Lottie (34:57)
my gosh, you guys stop because my head, I'm not going to be able to get out the door after this. I feel