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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Well, back to the debrief podcast with pastor Matt Brown.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Who's also your husband.
Tammy Brown:Who is also my Spiritual
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:leader. Boss.
Tammy Brown:And my spiritual leader and technically my boss. And for those of you who don't know me, I am Tammy Brown, his wife, and I am super excited to jump into the co hosting chair with you for this season of the deep breathe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Schutte:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Any thoughts on that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I'm glad you're here, we love Donna, we miss Donna, we're going to have her back as a Fantastic. Absolutely. But they have a non profit business that they're running, and from time to time we just want to mix it up. And so I don't know of a more mixed up person than you, so
Tammy Brown:Okay. Calm down.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're gonna mix
Tammy Brown:it up. Thank you for tuning in to this season. We're getting a bit of a late start because you and I actually had something really pivotal happen this month.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We were grandparents.
Tammy Brown:We just became grandparents. Thoughts on that, you want to share?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You know, everybody asks me, and I I just wasn't prepared for this question, but what do you want to be called?
Tammy Brown:I mean, who? Everyone's asking me, what's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:your grandma I I actually feel like since Weston was born, I have a deep appreciation and just connection. I told you this the other night when we were doing our quiet time. I want to say a spiritual connection, but I don't know that it's spiritual. Spiritual slash emotional connection to my grandfather's. And so I know now that nobody wants to get old, nobody wants to be called old names, but I think I wanna I mean, whatever he calls me.
Tammy Brown:I know, we're just like, we don't care what he calls us, just call I
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:think I'm good with grandpa because I loved both my grandfathers, I called them grandpa, they were men that fought in World War two. Mhmm. My grandpa Estes dead for three months, I don't know if you guys heard this story, because a bomb landed on him, and his dog tag landed on a dead person, and the dead person's dog tag landed somewhere else. So my grandfather was a John Doe in Honolulu for three months.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But his parents were told that he was dead. And so by the time that he was able to, you know, communicate and say, hey I'm not John Doe, I'm Lawrence Estes, he said you can't be Lawrence Estes, because Lawrence Estes is dead. But eventually he was able to call his mother three months later, and she fainted on the phone when she heard her son's voice. So he came back with a lot of damage. As did, you know, my grandfather, other grandfather Ed served in the merchant marines, and if you don't know anything about the Pacific Warfare, the number one target of the Japanese were the oil tankers.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because without oil, ships can't. I mean you literally have a dead naval fleet. And so he came back with a lot of baggage, and both of them, in different stories turned to Christ, and because of that, my life. So they changed my mom's life, they changed my dad's life, and I feel a deep connection with them, and they were my grandfathers. And so I just think it's a it's a it's a title that I honor, and so I'm humbled to be someone's grandfather.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I and I look forward to that. What well, obviously, whatever he calls me, you know, that that's fine. So Yeah.
Tammy Brown:I feel the same. I just feel like I had such incredible grandparents, and my parents were wonderful grandparents to our children. And so I just feel like I have such an inspiration for who I want to be based on who both of them were for us. And so it's been a great season for us this month, but it did had has called caused a bit of a delay for us getting started. So welcome back.
Tammy Brown:Let's jump into the question. Yeah. And I hear this question actually was one of the most asked questions, but this one in particular comes from Samantha from Moreno Valley. Hi, Samantha. Regarding the genealogy of Jesus, what is the point of proving that he came from Abraham if the genealogy ends on Joseph and not Mary?
Tammy Brown:The poll the whole point of the miracle is that Joseph was not the father of Jesus. Correct?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So this is man, I got this question on Instagram, I got this question
Tammy Brown:in
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the lobby, so thank you, Samantha, for asking this question. So the genealogies in Matthew, which is what we read, and the genealogies in Luke present some interpretive challenges. So in Matthew it goes from Abraham to Joseph, in Luke it goes from Adam to Joseph. So, and I think that what Luke is trying to say, because Luke is writing a gospel for Romans, Jesus is the savior of the world, so he goes all the way back to Adam. Matthew is trying to argue that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so he goes back to the foundation of Judaism, which is Abraham. So Abraham becomes the Jew. So having said that, when we look at the names, the thing I would say, Samantha, is there's 14 generations from Abraham to the Babylonian exile, and then 14, I'm missing one. There's three sets of 14 generations, the total of 42 generations. And and I should've just read that beforehand, but just know that that is not all of the generations.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is an edited list for the purpose of kind of the famous who's who of the Jewish people through the ages. And so it's not, you know, like I get this question all the time, so who did Seth marry? You know, in the story of Genesis, right? We have Cain, we have Abel, we have Seth. They all get married, they have wives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say is, clearly God created more children, there were more human beings, they're just not part of the just yeah. They're just not accounted for. And so the same thing is true. You know, Jews are not interested, like us westerners, in the exact lineage detail. They're just not.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so Matthew has a list, Luke has a list. One of the ways that this is solved is some people say Matthew's gospel is the lineage of Joseph, and Luke's gospel is the lineage of Mary. I don't think that's true. I think they're both Joseph's lineage just going through different people. And you can see specifically that in Matthew it mentions Solomon, but in Luke it mentions Nathan, David's other son.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? And and that's just the thing is, you know, you can be a part of the lineage of David through multiple people. I mean it doesn't have to be directly. And so here's why I think this is really really important, and this is just something that we don't understand about Judaism. So if I were a Jew two thousand years ago, and you and I are married, and my brother is married to Danielle and they were childless.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If my brother died, and Danielle was without a child, it would be my responsibility to sleep with Danielle for the purpose of my brother's line continuing. Right? So I know that's really really hard, it's a cultural thing that's really hard for us to understand. But you gotta remember, there's no social security, there's government benefits. The way that your family is taken care of is through children.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's why children are so That's great for me now. If you don't have kids man, you are starving as an aged adult. And so you need children to carry the name. But, so even though, listen to this, even though if I slept with my brother's wife, and the child is biologically mine, according to the lineage, it's not. The child would be the son of Nathan, my brother, not Matthew.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's his line continued. And so in Judaism, that's just okay. And so what I would say is that's exactly what's happening here. Even though it's not Joseph's seed that creates Jesus, it's the Holy Spirit that produces the seed through the power of the Holy Spirit in Mary that creates a divine sperm, or however the Lord did it to bring life and place it in Mary's womb, you know, it is still from Joseph's line according to the legality of it. So you know, and that happens all the time.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's just something that's hard for us to understand. But the line of David is still in succession even though Joseph is not the biological father. He is legally, right? Mhmm. He is legally a son of David.
Tammy Brown:Is there any connection to it being traced back to Abraham though? Because God revealed himself to Abraham. Right? Right. Is through Jesus, like, pointing that out, God revealing himself through Jesus.
Tammy Brown:Like, is there any is there any bookending there of, like, why it goes back to Abraham, Jess?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. To Abraham? He's the Jew. Yeah. So I mean, when you think about it, right, Adam and Eve are not Jewish.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. You know, no one is Jewish until Abraham. And Abraham believes God. So Abraham is a Middle Eastern man who believes God and is circumcised, right? And then God gives a promise to Abraham through Sarah, and that through that line he will create a people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. So Abraham actually has two sons. He has Isaac, and he has
Tammy Brown:Ishmael.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ishmael, through Hagar. Ishmael and Hagar are not Jewish. They're not. And that's really, really hard for us to understand. Even though Ishmael is just as related to Abraham as Isaac is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But God has selected to bless both Abraham and Sarah, and do it that way. And so it's just one of those things that God can do what God does. You know, there's another debate with Jehoiakim right before Israel is destroyed in Babylon, he's the last king of Babylon, some Jews believe that he was cursed. Mhmm. And so the lineage could no longer go through him, and so that's why Luke's account is different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:All that is, that's a theological difference amongst Jews. And so they just would choose to ignore him, because they thought he was a bad king. And he, you know, he destroyed destroyed Israel. So that's one opinion. You know?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's very very difficult to understand, and that's why a lot of people don't preach on it. It's the time I ever preached on it, but just to say that, she said the whole point of the miracle is that Joseph is not the father of Jesus, he is not the biological father, but he is the legal father.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, and think about this. We are not the children of God, but when we invite Jesus Christ into our heart, we become the legal children of God. Are adopted the kingdom. So my DNA does not come from God, but because of the blood of Jesus and my faith in him, I now have legal standing before God. I am a child of God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's something that's really really important to understand, you know, about Judaism. So a lot of people, and you and I were talking about this, that you know, the Boaz joke that I make, Boaz dumbass, cheat ness.
Tammy Brown:Everyone's like, Matt Kuss, I'm like, no, he was making a play on words, but
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. What I was trying to do is get people to remember Boaz, this is important because Ruth is a Moabite woman who is cursed by God and cut off from the kingdom of God, not allowed to serve in the temple, and there is to be no intermarriage. And so you know, when I said she fell in love, and even you asked me, it's not really a love story, well it kind of is. Because her husband dies, and there is faithfulness to Noemi. That is true, absolutely.
Tammy Brown:Naomi. Naomi.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Naomi. That, you know, that is true. But she says this, wherever you will go, I will go. She says your people will be my people. What she's saying is I'm converting to Judaism.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she says your God will be my God. Mhmm. So Ruth is considered a convert to Judaism. So she's no longer Moabite, she's converted. She's very Christian in her understanding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so then she marries Boaz, and so that's how the lineage, right, is unbroken. Because even though she comes from a tribe that's not Jewish, she's brought into the lineage of Jesus. And that's so important for us as Christians, because just as she was grafted in through conversion, we are grafted in through faith in Christ. So Mhmm. It's a beautiful story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think it's a love story because she put on perfume and took a bath before she hung out with him.
Tammy Brown:Alright. Alright. Good question. Okay. This next question is from Jay Barnes up in Santa Rosa.
Tammy Brown:Shout out to Santa Rosa. Yeah. This question is so good because I think even if you haven't directly asked it out loud, we've all wondered this, so I'm really excited to see how you answer this. Why didn't God kill Satan? Moreover, if God can do the impossible, why hasn't he changed Satan for the better?
Tammy Brown:It's a great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, Jay Barnes. Man, this is a great question. And so really the greatest challenge we face as Christians is if God is good, why is there so much evil in the world? And that's just something that we have to face, and every religion struggles with this. The atheist has to answer this question, if there is no God, why is there good in the world?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why do we love babies? Why are flowers beautiful? Like why are there sunsets? You know, so both sides of the argument, the atheist has to account for love, for goodness and beauty. The believer in God has to account for evil, sin, and darkness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we don't know everything about this story, and people that try to do this get into all kinds of trouble. Jews struggled with this. It's why the very famous book right now on TikTok is Enoch. Everyone's talking about Enoch and Enoch. And Enoch's an incredibly important book that at least Jude, if you read the book of Jude, Jude thought that it was inspired, because he talks about prophecy coming out of that book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ultimately it didn't make its way in our canon. I'm talking about Enoch one. So there are several books of Enoch, so Enoch one. But Enoch talks a lot about evil and ugliness and all this. So let's start with this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why didn't God kill Satan? Well, the 10 commandment says thou shalt not kill. And so there's something in the nature of God that believes that things should not be destroyed forever. So Satan is an eternal being, so in order to kill Satan, he would have to be killed forever. And that seems like that's something that God does not want to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now in the book of Revelation, Satan is thrown into the eternal pit to be destroyed. We don't know does that mean that he's destroyed completely, that he's destroyed of ability, we we just don't know. You know, Revelation is a difficult book to understand. But God is not in the business of killing evil, he's in the business of redeeming evil. And so that that's what I would say.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think there's a misunderstanding of of what God wants to do. And so why doesn't God kill Satan? Satan has a role to play. Mhmm. Everything in God's creation has a role to play.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the role that Satan plays is he not only it's not just enough for God to allow choice, but someone has to encourage the wrong choice in order for there to be true freedom.
Tammy Brown:You
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:know, like Okay. Because you could say that your kids were truly free, you know, to do whatever they want, but if nobody ever encourages them to smoke pot, they were never free. It's not until they are encouraged to smoke pot by a friend, by a family member, and they say no, that they've actually chosen righteousness. Mhmm. So being naive is not righteousness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Choosing good in the face of evil is righteousness, and that's what God wants us to be. So moreover, if God can do the impossible, why hasn't he changed Satan for the better? And that's because Satan has a role to play, and Satan is uninterested in changing. So James says this, that even the devil believes and shudders. So Satan understands the greatness of God, the goodness of God, and this is what we have to be, we have to be so careful just with our own attitudes and hearts, is that we can get so twisted and so angry at God that we choose evil.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I believe that's what Satan has done. And so in the book of Titus, the Apostle Paul is talking about pastor's wives. And he says
Tammy Brown:I should listen up right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. He says they should not be gossipers, but that's not the word he uses in Greek. The Greek word is diablos. They should not be Sataners. Satan is the accuser, he's the gossiper, he's the slanderer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's the one who speaks against. So when we gossip, when we slander, we're being like Satan. And why is that? We feel justified, we feel hurt, we become bitter, and so these things come out of us, and so we don't know Satan's whole story, but something has happened to him where he's given himself permission to be bitter and angry, and he's more interested in his wounding than he is in the goodness of God. And so he's not going to change, he will not change, and he wants to destroy and take down as many people with him as possible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And unfortunately, you know, that's what happens, know, when you know, we've seen this in the news, when someone doesn't just commit suicide, which is terrible, but I think about that German pilot a couple years in the airplane. He's the captain, and he doesn't just kill himself, but everyone on board.
Tammy Brown:Oh, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:His bitterness and depression went so dark, it wasn't enough for him to hurt himself. He had to hurt, he had to inflict harm on others. And so you know, that's the extreme end of freedom. So if you think on one end there's Jesus, who never sinned, who always chose to do what was right, even though tempted. In a couple weeks Claude's gonna preach on this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, Jesus is tempted in every way that we are, and I would say worse than we are, because it's a personal temptation of Satan. The same guy who tripped up Eve is unable to trip up Jesus. So, and I should say tripped up Adam and Eve because they were both there, but he's Jesus does what Adam and Eve couldn't do. He resists temptation. And so that's why, according to Luke's gospel, in narrative, he is the new Adam.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So remember we talked about why he goes back to the Adam? It's because he's the new human. He's the perfect human. He's what Adam was supposed to be, and yet Adam fell, And so now, Jesus is the God man who represents both that brings us back together. So why hasn't he changed Satan for the better?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this is something that I think all Christians need to understand. God is not in the business of changing unwilling hearts. Mhmm. And so, you know, we gotta think about this when we don't go to church, it's easy to get bitter, it's easy to get cynical, it's easy to get offended, or upset, or angry. I just met with a couple right before this meeting, they were upset at the church, some things have happened.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And they said at the end of the meeting, we're not going anywhere. Usually people when they get upset, they get offended, they get hurt, the natural inclination is to leave. Rather than to restore, work on the relationship, and I'm not saying people should stay in abusive relationships, but any relationships, there's miscommunications, there's slights, you feel unappreciated, you feel unseen, all of that is a normal part of a community. But you know, I can't change their heart to stay, God has to change their heart to stay. Here's what I can do, and for anybody out there that's got a kid that's drug addicted, a kid struggling with some huge issue or overwhelmed, what I do is I ask God to remove any spiritual demons that are a part of the torment of this person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I believe God will do that. So he will pull the enemy back, and then we can ask the Holy Spirit to go in. But at the end of the day, people have to want to change. Mhmm. And here's the thing about Satan.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He does not want to change. All he wants to do is hurt God, and the way that he hurts God is by hurting us. Mhmm. We are God's only weakness. And so that's what Satan does.
Tammy Brown:Way to say that. That's good. It's an interesting way to say that. We are God's weakness.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Okay. This next one comes from our next door neighbors over here out in San Bernardino from Laura. And it kind of is a great tie in to with Satan because this next one is about being tested. Are believers tested by God? We, my husband and I, often feel like we are failing not just at life, but we are failing God.
Tammy Brown:Does God send us tests? Or are these things and situations we face just tricks, snares, machinations, etcetera of Satan? So what a great tie in from Satan's role, but then also, how does that play and tie into us?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So the answer here is confusing, because the answer is, are believers tested by God? Yes and no. Usually no, but sometimes yes. So so what do I mean by that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Job was tested. So that's what the entire book of Job is about, he was tested. So there are believers who are tested to see what they will do. You know, Abraham is tested, and God says, with Isaac, and God says, now I know you believe. So what we have to be careful of as Christians is not assuming we play the same role as Abraham.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, like, somebody asked me, you know, they committed sin, their kid died, and it's like, did God kill my kid? And I said, why would you ask that? And they said, well, he killed David's son. And I said, well, you the king of Israel? See what I'm saying?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we associate the judgment of God on David, and we equate that, but David was a shepherd boy who had nothing, who was given everything, and he did something extraordinary. So the greater the responsibility, the greater the judgment. The apostle James says this, you should not teach, for those who teach will face a greater judgment. And so what I would say is, the greater your role is in the kingdom of God, yes, there's going to be greater testing, and that's why so many leaders fail. But usually the testing, and this is what James says, he says he says, listen, this is not the Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He says, it's your own sin, it's your own desires, and this is the enemy.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and so that's what James says. And so what I would say is, that's usually the case. There are some extraordinary circumstances, like Abraham, where if God asks you to kill your only son, that's a test. I mean, and God asked him to do it. So what I would say is that's not the norm, it's the exception.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what people try to do is they point to the exception and they say, see, see, see, but here's the thing you need to remember, the exception always proves the rule. The rule is God does not test. The exceptions are, because God is sovereign, occasionally he tests. And he tests people who have an extraordinary role in the kingdom of God, like Jesus, who was tempted by the devil. And if you read the verse, it says he was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So this is a part of God's plan. Now did God do the tempting? No. But God led Jesus to be tempted by that. And so before you say that's what's happening to me, would just say, are you Jesus?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Did you just wrap up a forty day fasting? Like, you know, some of us lose our minds when we skip lunch. So I think we need to be really, really careful that we don't, you know, Paul says in Romans that we need to have an honest estimate of ourselves. We need to know our weaknesses, we need to know our strengths, and the Lord is never going to tempt us or test us beyond our ability to do that. And so what I would just say is, you said often we feel like we are failing, not just at life, and I feel I'm right there with you, but I don't think it's the Lord testing me, I think life is hard.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And life And it's complex and complicated. It's complex and it presents it presents all kinds of choices. You know, the last four years, it's interesting, just took my blood test today, and I went back on Kaiser, and I looked at my cholesterol levels since 2020. You want to imagine what they're doing?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, I mean if it was our money it would be fantastic, but it's my cholesterol levels. Well what's happened is the stress level that I've faced since 2020. Because stress affects cholesterol, and it's because I've faced extraordinarily difficult challenges. The Lord's not testing me, he's called me to lead in difficult times. And he's called me to lead through difficult situations.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Parenting is difficult. This is why so many of our generation are checking out, playing video games, they never get married, they just look at porn, they barely work, and they live in their mom's basement until they're 40, or 50, or 60. Like so many people are choosing Peter Pan over growing up. And that's because it's hard to grow up. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's difficult to pay rent. It's difficult to manage your bills. It's easier to complain to your parents when they don't give you what you want. That's easy, you know? Because then your mom and dad are evil, because they're not fulfilling your every need.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But part of growing up is facing these things, and a real hard thing to do is admit, okay, I've made some mistakes. You know, we were just you know, talking with a person yesterday who is having a little hard time with some of our successes. We've made very different financial decisions than that person. It's not that the Lord has blessed us more, we just so happened, I mean the Lord has blessed us more, but we made some better decisions. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't. And
Tammy Brown:And difficult decisions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And difficult decisions. And it's just easier to say it must be nice. It must be nice. And, okay. I mean, you know it's not been easy for us to tithe every year.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. To give over and above that. You know, somebody was just asking me the other day, hey did you give so and such money to Olive Crest? And I'm like, man, I said this, I said we give so much away, I don't know if we did or not. Probably.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? And so I got to find out if we made a donation to that We did. Oh we did. Because my money's the Lord's money, and I want to be generous in that, and I can't ask people to be generous if I'm not generous myself. It's why a lot of preachers won't teach on giving, because they don't give.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Afraid. I'm not afraid, because I give. Mhmm. And so so anyways
Tammy Brown:An interesting dynamic I think with the idea of being tested is the flip side of that coin, which is what does the testing produce in us? Mhmm. And I think that I mean, clearly, scripture says it produces, right, endurance, it produces other things. So I think that one way to look at the testing, Laura, is like, man, we're just failing test after test. A different way to flip that narrative might be to say, god, what are you trying to produce in me Mhmm.
Tammy Brown:That we're missing through the test? Because you're not going to make, in my opinion, much headway if you're just thinking about the failures. But if you're thinking about where God wants you to be, it's an invitation into something better, an invitation into something greater, that testing. Because obviously, like, all of us feel like we failed in life. Are you taking the time to reflect and be real about that failure and go, man, where did we miss it?
Tammy Brown:Where should we have made a different choice or a different turn, or seen a different perspective that would have produced it so that the next time the testing comes, God's producing in us what he wants to produce. So, like, I've always kind of looked at that, like, not sometimes, clearly, God's testing, but sometimes the test comes. And, like, at the end of the question, it says, are these snares and tricks? Absolutely. Because that's the enemy's role.
Tammy Brown:Right? The enemy is The deceiver. Deceiver, the father of lies. He is wanting to trip us up. He is wanting, you know, to catch us in snares, but it's like, what what is trying to be produced?
Tammy Brown:God doesn't necessarily cause the testing Right. But he uses it Yeah. Produce good things if we so choose. Mhmm. You know, you and I say with the kids all the time, everybody gets older.
Tammy Brown:Not everybody grows up. Right. Exactly what you were just talking about. So can you talk about the idea of just flipping that narrative instead of being like, oh my gosh. We're just failing at life.
Tammy Brown:Like, that that's just a dark heavy place to feel like you can't dig out of. But, like, the joy in what God's trying to produce in us to get to where he wants us to be, to enjoy the freedom, and the life, and the good things he has planned for us. That's the other side of that coin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I would say this, especially if you're a parent, you've got to raise your kids to do hard things, because I you heard me say this to our kids all the time. I know this is hard, life is hard, and this is preparing you for life.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now they did not appreciate it as kids, but as adults, they've come back to me several times and said, thanks dad. Because life is challenging, and things are hard, and people that run from hard things make it worse down the That's just the truth. And so having those hard conversations in marriage, having those hard conversations with your kid, having hard conversations And what I would say this is, don't be afraid to say you made a mistake, because you can never learn until you can admit you made Absolutely. And this is what I see people, and I don't mean this as a slide to anyone our church has helped, but the people that we help financially at the church are the people that come back to be helped again. They most people don't learn.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They just don't learn. And it's because me handing you money to fix your problem doesn't fix your problem, because your decision making is the problem. Your choices are the problem. And so that's really really hard to face, because right, in our self centeredness, and this is what we have to face as Christians, well I think I'm the Lord, so I deserve getting my nails done. I deserve, I mean you know we have a policy as a church, we don't feed families when they have six dogs.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And people will say, well they're parts of our family. I was like, well I'm not sacrificing from my family to feed your pets. And people get really upset about that. But that's a decision. If you can't afford to feed yourself, you don't need to feed five or six pets.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's And nobody in our society wants to say that. But in the church, our job is to help people make good decisions. And you know, if you can't pay rent and you're newly married and you can't pay your phone bill, puppy's probably not the best idea. But they're cute, and they're fun,
Tammy Brown:and cute. It's hard, but it's true,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:it's And so we don't want to face that, and so what I would do is just journal and say, okay, here's the crisis I'm facing, where did this start? And really really work through that. Because I think it's easy to say God did this, or
Tammy Brown:Or if there's something that's happening time and time again, if it's finances, if it's whatever, to go like, oh god, are you trying to get my attention with my finances? Yeah. With my relationship? Yeah. And so that's what I would say to Laura is just to go back.
Tammy Brown:I mean, it's our whole vision of being real with ourselves, God, and others. It's just to go back. Where are the times that you feel like you're failing at life, failing God over and over and over? What is the pattern? And then ask the Lord, what are you trying to produce in me?
Tammy Brown:Mhmm. What different decisions do I need to make that I don't want to make, but that you're calling me to make to get on the other side, to receive his blessing, to receive the love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, good like, good goodness, self control? What what are you trying to produce? What fruits are you trying to produce in me, Lord, Mhmm. Through the testing and using it.
Tammy Brown:So that's a great question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I said this, I think, in last week's message, Sue, and you can hear it in the word, a disciple is disciplined.
Tammy Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and here's the problem. Most of us are not disciples because we're not disciplined. And Tammy knows I do the same things every day.
Tammy Brown:Matt is very disciplined.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I get up, I read my Bible, I pray, now we've introduced a quiet time together, I go to the gym, then I read my not disciplined. You know, then I read my emails, and then I do my work for the day. I do the same thing every day. We used to have this argument all the time, she's like, what are you doing on Tuesday? I'm like, the same thing I do every Tuesday.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's why, I learned this from my dad, structure binds anxiety. And so part of the reason kids are so anxious is because there is no structure in their life. They do whatever they want, whenever they want. And so, you know, there used to be a real peace in our country when the TV went off at midnight, and everybody had to go to bed. Think about for all human history, there's real peace when the sun went down because it was dark and dangerous, and nobody went out.
Tammy Brown:And it was a forced pause.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A forced It a forced pause. Who created the forced pause? God did. And so we have to understand that. So you know, learning to create spiritual rhythms in your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you look at Genesis one, what's the thing God does? Like we argue about, did God create the heavens and the earth in six literal days or not? What God is trying to teach us is the secret of a godly life is rhythms. On the day, God. On the day, God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's doing things, and then on the day, what does a god of rhythm, healthy rhythms do? He rests. Mhmm. Then what does he ask his people to do? Work six days, and then on the day, he rests.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was reading this, and I'm reading a preaching book, and the guy said in my religious tradition the pastor preached from nine to noon. I'm like, woah. I don't even know if I could have been a Christian. But what he said was, he's watched people's ability to sit and listen to God shrink and shrink and shrink and shrink. In the Catholic church, the homily is ten minutes.
Tammy Brown:I just read a study that said something like if you're reading or praying and your phone is in a literal proximity to you, five, ten feet the same room, that you can't disengage because you're always thinking, wonder if a text came in. Like, you can't mentally engage God with your devices in your room. They've done studies on this because you're double minded. Half of your mind is what's happening there, and half on God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And this is why I'm trying to get you guys to bring your Bibles to church, because it's getting you off your phone, and you're disengaging, and I want you to make notes.
Tammy Brown:Me forgetting my bible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I want you to make notes. Yeah, and you've seen my bible. I've My bible looks like it was sprayed by gangsters in LA. It's literally bloodied with blue ink, pink ink, green, whatever pen I can grab, because when I'm reading my Bible, I'm writing notes because I don't want to forget that. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I write the date. When was the last time that I read this? And then what what am I going through? And that's powerful. I mean, whenever I go through Jeremiah, I mean, I'm about ready for a new Bible, but I was going through Jeremiah when I had COVID for three weeks in 2020 And I mean, you can see it every day.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Day 14, Lord, I don't know if I'm gonna make it. Day 17, when will this end? Like, it's really sad, but I was like, wow, I'm reading a book on suffering, Jeremiah the weeping prophet, and I was going through it myself. So so for the most part, God is not testing you, but life is testing you,
Tammy Brown:and these tests Let us have this thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And these tests are important for you to grow. And that's what Romans five, that's the verse that you quoted, Romans five one through five is saying. What James is saying is the Lord is not tempting you, he would never tempt you. You do that yourself. It springs from our own desires, and so part of the Christian life is to identify our desires, listen to me, that are ungodly.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's that's tough. But to identify those, the way we identify those is through Bible study, because the Bible says these are ungodly, and then we have a decision to make. Am I gonna live a godly life, or am I gonna live a self centered life? A self centered life is like an animal, a godly life is like an angel. And we choose what are we going to do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'll be praying for you, life is hard. You know, and there are tricks that Satan does, and those things do happen. And you know, so I'll be praying for you, Laura. That was a great question.
Tammy Brown:I think that's all the questions that we have for today. So thank you so much everyone for listening. Thank you for having me in your cohost seat. I'm excited about this season together. Please let us know by if you like what we're talking about or if you have questions you wanna talk about by following, subscribing, and leaving comments for the show.
Tammy Brown:And you can support us by going to sandalschurch.com/support. We would love that. We have a team that puts this on. It takes a lot to make this happen, but hopefully, this can be another way for you guys to ask the tough questions that you have concerning God's word to Matt. I'll give a little commentary here and there, but clearly, Matt is the expert here.
Tammy Brown:That's the point of why we're doing this because you may not get it in the sermon, and you may not be able to catch Matt in the lobby, but this is the place for you guys to come to ask the questions about God's word, and we'll do our best to get to those. So thank you everyone for listening. We'll see you next time.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
Scott Schutte:If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, comment, and subscribe. Thanks for being a debrief listener.