Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
🚨 Sign up for Becky's newsletter, Feminist Rants Are My Superpower: https://beckymollenkamp.com/rants
🎤 PROUD MEMBER OF THE FEMINIST PODCASTERS COLLECTIVE 🎤 http://feministpodcastcollective.com/
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.731)
Does it say something's wrong on your side? Okay, well then hopefully it's okay. I hope I'm nervous now, but all right. Hello, Amelia, how are you?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (00:09.622)
I am doing so well. I'm so excited to be here, Becky. Thank you for having me.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:14.53)
Thanks for doing this with me. Have you read the piece?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (00:17.418)
I have read the piece. Yay.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:19.052)
And so did I. And what'd you think? Like, just give me your very short, what I thought overview, and then we'll dig in.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (00:27.7)
Yeah, so my initial feeling upon reading the piece was simply that I love Angela Davis so much. She is so brilliant and has such like clear analysis of the role that prisons actually play in our society, which is not the same rhetoric we get from the sort of like law and justice.
people out there. And I really appreciated both like revisiting some of her thoughts on abolition. I've read Our Prison's Obsolete. I used to teach it when I was in my PhD program. But this was like a different angle, a different lens when she's looking at it through the lens of like democracy and a more sort of like contemporary approach. I also was struck by the fact that I was reading this and I was like, this obviously just came out. And then I looked at it I was like, oh, this was something that she like a speech she gave in 2007. And I was like,
Becky Mollenkamp (01:23.82)
Right. It was reissued a year ago, guess, ish, little over when, and that's where we're reading the excerpt of it. And yeah, it was originally from years ago. And my immediate thought was just the same thing of like, she could be writing this in this literal moment as we are as recording this sitting through what's happening with El Salvadorian prison and just the complete obliteration of democracy. that was so resonant with me as I was reading this. that's
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (01:24.468)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (01:39.627)
Yeah.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (01:49.942)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:53.742)
And there are a million ways to look at this, obviously, but just in this moment, just, that was the, almost the only lens I could read this through because it was just so on point for what's happening right now. I don't know if you were thinking about, mean, I don't know how you could read really not be thinking about that news.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (02:10.474)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean...
I think that for me, there was this sense of like...
Well, maybe this, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but I'll just speak to something else.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:24.728)
Well, this is not like, listen, we're not doing a big interview. This is just us having a conversation about what we thought about the piece. like, don't count on me to ask really poignant questions. Like bring up whatever you think. We'll both respond.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (02:38.846)
Yeah, so I, in that spirit, I think what really stood out to me the most in the piece was where she talks about how like the necessity of prisons in a contemporary age, you know, she's still writing this 18 years ago, but the purpose is like, we need this opposition so that other people, people who are not incarcerated can say, I'm free because I'm not in prison. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:00.79)
I don't know you can see in my background, but anyone watching on YouTube, I decided I would pull out a quote on my little message board for each of these episodes. And that one partly is because it would fit. But also I felt like that was kind of the heart of it, right? That was the piece that really stood out to me too. Like, isn't that interesting to think the only way we can know that we're not, that we are free is by having that opposite of knowing that we could not be free. And how much freedom is that?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (03:24.776)
Yeah, exactly. I think that this like, the reason this came up for me when you were talking about, you know, a US citizen being sent or deported to a Salvadorian prison is because it really like that event, I think it pierces the veil of this idea that we're free if we're not in prison or that we have any protection to our freedom. And
essentially, what I think Trump is trying to do is make all of us fear that we could be in prison at any moment and to detach prison from crime in a certain kind of way that is really terrifying. And so I think that that was definitely something standing out to me about this piece from Angela Davis is this sort of way that she's charting how within our liberal democratic government, it may be started out by being like, well,
Becky Mollenkamp (04:02.626)
Very.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (04:17.622)
you know you're free because you're not a slave. And then it became, you know you're free because you're not a prisoner. And I think there's this huge question that's becoming so present in 2025, which is, how do I know I'm free? And the answer is perhaps we're not free under our contemporary, quote unquote, democratic government. Yeah, yeah, that too.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:42.958)
under fascism. Right. Yeah. I know that really struck me too, because it does beg that question of like, I don't know, because you think about I was just having this conversation with my son last night because he was feeling sad. And I said, it's okay to feel sad. Because if we're not sad, we don't know what happy feels like. Right? Because it is the the feeling of being sad that allows you to understand what not sad is, right? You can't understand that if you're always sad, you can't understand you can't understand happy if there aren't times of being sad.
And so I was explaining that to him. Then as I was reading this, I was thinking, that's so interesting because it's like, how do I know I'm not free if there isn't some potentiality of it being taken from me, right? That there isn't some opposite of freedom, which is not freedom. And I know that I've been raised in this corporal, know, carceral system that we have. So that stuff is so embedded in me that I have taken on that belief in a way of even though I've
always been against the death penalty. think we imprison at ridiculous rates in this country. But it did have me starting to like have to grapple a little bit with when we talk about abolition of the prison system and and getting like there is that part of me that goes, but wait a minute, what does that mean? Because what happens? This idea that I know is nonsense that why wouldn't I commit crime if I know I'm not going to get caught? Well, I don't.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (06:00.31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:10.446)
right now, even if I know maybe I would be protected by my whiteness or for other reasons that I could get away with something I don't because of integrity, which I teach my son, because it's the right thing to do because I live by the golden rule, even though I'm not religious, I don't even know if that's a religious thing. But like, there's a whole host of reasons I do have nothing to do with this potential of losing my quote unquote freedom. And I do it does. Like it is a thing I haven't really thought a lot about of like, freedom is this sort of precarious.
thing and what is it if there isn't the potentiality of it being taken away? And it's like, yeah, it's an it should be inherent, I guess, right? In the same way my humanity should be inherent. I don't know. It's really interesting because I had I haven't looked at it through that lens before ever.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (06:43.958)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (06:47.83)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate so many of the things you just brought up. mean, I think for me, it's just imperative to understand freedom as like a spiritual resource, not as a grant, like a right granted by a government. And I think that that's what she's trying to point to here as well is that like, when we conceptualize freedom under liberal democracy, and when she says that she's not saying liberal, like democratic, she's saying liberal, like liberalism, right?
So she's saying under that paradigm, freedom is only this precarious right that we do or don't have and that is contingent on our whiteness and our, I guess like status in the judicial system, whether we're incarcerated or not. So she's really pointing to that. But I think there are things in here and definitely in Angela Davis's work and the black feminist tradition she comes out of more broadly that they would really point to like,
freedom isn't just this thing that the government says it is like freedom is something we cultivate within and between us. And so the opposition of freedom doesn't have to be incarceration. That's just like, what is necessary, you have to insist that if you're going to keep us all under this sort of belief that we need prisons, like it's a necessary belief if you also believe that we need prisons, but it's not actually the truth in any meaningful sense, I would say.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:59.192)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:21.422)
Yeah. Well, because we also know prisons don't do any good. Like ultimately, right? They cost a lot of money. They cost a whole lot more than a million other options that we could have. And they don't actually historically and on the whole do anything to improve anyone's situation. In fact, I think it often makes it worse. The recidivism rates are so high and it's not because people are inherently bad people. I just can't believe that. I refuse to believe that. I'm raising my son to not believe that.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (08:25.429)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:47.998)
And when we say prisons must exist, I think it's because we do believe people there are inherently bad people. And that is something I don't want to get behind. But I also loved what you said about like, who's the government giving us freedom? Because right, if freedom is if freedom is a resource, a commodity, a thing, then yeah, it's something that can be given and taken away. And I think, you know, as a woman looking through that lens,
I don't want my freedom to be something that can be given or taken by a man. And that is what has historically happened, obviously, with folks who have white skin deciding that they get to decide who gets to have freedom and who doesn't. And that's terrifying. And we're just seeing it like through such a microscope right now that I think in a way that maybe many of us have had such privilege, because obviously, there's statistics in here about the black experience with prison and, you know, its roots and slavery and all of these things.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (09:19.124)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:42.894)
But so as a white woman, I'm speaking through that lens, obviously, where I've had a lot of privileges, allowed me in many ways to not have that system feel really big in my life in a way that I think a lot of us now, especially anyone who is vocal about their beliefs, is feeling more of that, of like, oh my God, this idea that this freedom that I've really taken for granted in a lot of ways is something that is bit that
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (09:55.744)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:12.27)
other people have actually determined I get to have. And that's icky, like, and that's terrifying. And that's not what I want it to be. And then I guess the invitation and what I think, I don't know about you, but I was kind of like waiting for the end. And I know this is part of a book. So now I kind of want to get the book because I want to read. Of course, this is going to happen to me a lot with this series, I'm afraid, where I'm going be like.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (10:15.958)
Hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (10:30.196)
Yeah, I think so.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:33.208)
This is already sending me down other rabbit holes. I already downloaded the 535 page on American, whatever it was that was mentioned in here from the Tocqueville or whatever. I've never read, Democracy America, Tocqueville, I've never read it, 535 pages, like anyway. But it does make me, it was begging the question of like, okay, so then what is the answer? Right? Because people do bad things. And I want to see a world in which we rehabilitate people, right?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (10:44.81)
the study.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (10:50.422)
you
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (11:02.12)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:03.148)
But I don't know, I can also see where there are people who do a lot of bad things and do a lot of bad things again and again. What is the solution? And I guess the problem is the solution is way bigger than prisons just feel like an easy answer, right? It's like a one and done sort of thing. We build this box, we put people in it, we get to lock the door and we don't have to think about it anymore. Whereas I'm guessing the solution is like, we have to rethink healthcare, we have to rethink.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (11:19.766)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:31.15)
childcare, we have to rethink education, resources, all of the things, mental health care, drug rehabilitation, all of these things that are way more complex and difficult than just saying throw up another box and stick people in it.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (11:38.923)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (11:48.438)
Yeah, I I think that I want to affirm what you're saying in the sense of how big it feels. For those of us who have been raised in the US where prisons are the norm, and we have been raised with the sort of fear of criminalization in our hearts, right? That being arrested or going to jail or going to prison makes you a bad person. It's like this double bind of like,
Becky Mollenkamp (12:00.878)
Right.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (12:14.016)
You're bad person if you go to those things. You're a bad person if you've been there. You're a bad person. Like, here's a bad person all around. But I also want to push back a bit, because I think that this is like Angela Davis's whole thing. Her whole thing, if you read Our Prison's Obsolete, which is like her really potent, I would say, like text about this, she's basically like, this is what everybody, in the final chapter she says, this is what everybody says as soon as you talk about abolition, is like.
What do we do about the murderers? What do we do about the rapists? What do we do about the serial killers? Like, we come up with these sort of examples of the people who scare us and the people we believe have done, like, grave harm to others. And what do we do with them? And some of her answers are like the things that you've said. She's like, well, there are all sorts of things that we have to do. We have to invest in schools. We have to invest in health care. We have to decriminalize a lot of things. And...
then she just, I think invites us like all of that agrees with what you just said. But I think what she invites us to do is like, let go of that final piece of what you said, which like, why do we believe that is harder than quote unquote, just having prisons, because prisons are super complex systems. And they require so much money, so much surveillance, so much control, like they're not an easy answer either. They are just invisible to those of us who
Becky Mollenkamp (13:19.608)
Mmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (13:37.088)
perhaps don't know anyone who's incarcerated or don't have to navigate the realm of incarceration. And so I think that like my pushback is just like, I think that both things are hard. I don't think prisons are easier than these other solutions, but I agree with you. And I think Angela Davis agrees with you that like the quote unquote solution or what happens after abolition is a lot of different things and they do require work and they do require a sort of fundamental rewiring of what we believe a society should look like.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:04.706)
Yeah. I think we're seeing, I don't know, I love that. And I should say easier in the sense that it's what we're accustomed to, what we're used to. I guess I, cause I agree. mean, prisons are ridiculously expensive. And even beyond that, they're really freaking inhumane. Like it's, it's horrible what we do to people. And so in both counts, there's nothing about that that's easy or right or better. I guess I just only in the way of messaging.
in that I think that people sort of just think it doesn't, if it doesn't affect me directly, right. Until it does, by the way, which is what we're reckoning with now, then I like, I don't want to my money and again, it's a messaging thing because your money's going either way. Why would you do the thing that's more humane? But it's just like, it's the thing we know, I guess, like, right. The devil, know, versus the
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (14:52.032)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:56.246)
Even if it's an angel that you don't, it's sometimes just easier to stay with the devil, you know? So it feels kind of like a messaging thing, which is what I feel like we're seeing playing out right now with what's happening with El Salvador, this prison and everything going on is it's shifting to this, but it could be me thing, which I know it sucks and it's not right. It should not have to take it could be me for me to be and to get mobilized into action. Right. I hate that that's what it takes for so many people.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (15:15.262)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:26.158)
And the reality is, sadly, that is what it takes for so many people. So I feel like it's happening. And then I think there's this like weird thing happening amongst Democrats. And I don't identify as a Democrat by any stretch. I mean, I am I think of myself as far more socialist than that. But the major opposition party to the Republicans right now, you see this thing happening where Newsom's like, oh, that's just a distraction. And let's get to the real issues, which are money, right? Tariffs and whatever the economy. And there are people who pushing back and saying, no, this is like a real issue.
And the Republicans are trying to be like, but these are just bad guys and whatever, which was what we always see with prisons. But I just think it's a messaging problem where historically the people who don't support the prison sort of system and the prison industrial complex as it's called have really sucked at messaging in a way of being able to get people to understand why this system is so bad and why there are better alternatives. Because then people just twist it and are like, well,
just don't want prisons. you just want, you know, killers roaming free, which is obviously not what this is about. But I don't know, I feel like I've seen it right now where I'm like, just talk about the fact that this is one inhumane, and two, a threat to everyone. And prisons have always been a threat to everyone. But again, people have been able to sort of pretend that it's not. I don't know, what do you think about the like messaging piece?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (16:42.838)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (16:48.298)
I mean, it's interesting that you say that because I feel like this essay specifically from Angela Davis is basically trying to say, we've had the message, we're saying the thing, we've been saying it for decades. And for a while, it felt like people were listening. And for a while, felt like prisons were like, the messaging broke through and they got it and we were going to get rid of prisons. then now, and then that totally then we see like, the Reagan, we see the war, war on drugs, we see Bill Clinton, we see like,
Becky Mollenkamp (17:11.672)
Reagan. I blame Reagan for everything.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (17:18.09)
the ways that incarceration became repopularized and reinforced. And now we're like seeing this moment where like maybe the quote unquote messaging of abolition will break through again because people are afraid that they could be imprisoned or deported or incarcerated. And I don't know, I don't think it's a messaging problem. I would say it's like a whiteness problem. I would say it's the fact that most like
And I think that that's what Angela Davis is trying to say. Like she quotes somebody toward the end of the piece. She quotes sociologist Jeff Manza and Christopher Ugan, and they say, when we ask the question of how we got to the point where American practice can be so out of line with the rest of the world, the most plausible answer we can supply is that of race. And I think that's kind of the answer here too, right? Like, why does it not keep breaking through?
I don't think it's a matter of messaging. I think it's a matter of listening and caring and the people who aren't really listening or aren't listening to the point where they care.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:25.918)
How do you get them to without messaging? I get totally agree. Yes. And if I could just like be the genie in the bottle and, you know, not and make everyone no longer racist at pricks, I would do that. And that obviously isn't happening. I do think there is a shift. And I feel like we've seen moments of this sort of shift over time. And unfortunately, I think a lot of times this is what it takes is these moments of real awakening around the threat and how it could become a threat to
myself, right? Because we are so self-centered as people, but especially as Americans. So I do think like it takes those times and then there's this like, that's right. And then more people become awakened and join the fight. But I don't know, like there's also this part of me that's like, what, what, does it take to get through to people so that the privilege piece, that white privilege piece is no longer, I'm asking you Amelia, how do we end racism today?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (19:22.536)
Yeah, that's essentially the question. mean, for me, a lot of like, I can't answer at a systemic level, I can't answer for other people, but I can answer for myself. And what it took was reading Our Prison's Obsolete a few times, and then joining a pen pal program, becoming a pen pal through Black and Pink. And I've had a pen pal who's incarcerated for years now.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:24.75)
We can't is the answer, I guess, but...
Becky Mollenkamp (19:35.662)
Yeah.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (19:50.814)
like six years, I would say, maybe seven. And I communicate with him regularly. We have phone calls, we do video calls, I write letters, we send birthday cards. And so for those of us for whom the system is not making it personal, we have to make it personal for ourselves. There are so many people who are in prison, who are on these pen pal exchange lists, who are always looking for connection and being
willing to raise your hand and say like, I will connect with you. Like, that's how I did it. I don't know that that will solve it for everyone. But cultivating that relationship, making incarceration a personal problem for me. Because of my friend who I've made since he's been in prison and continue to be friends with while he's in prison and serves out his sentence. Like, that's how I did it. I like
shifted the paradigm for myself because society was not going to do it for me, like, especially in this era. Like, I think the reason maybe there was a period before when the messaging can break through, but we live in like this post truth era, like messaging is not going to do it for people. If what we have like we're messaging in the face of the like lies and falsehoods that are coming out of I don't know the White House's Twitter account. Yeah, exactly. So I just feel like
Becky Mollenkamp (21:09.112)
Signal chats.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (21:13.042)
that's not where it's going to happen no matter how good the messaging gets. Like that's not where I locate this fight. And I think what do we do? Well, those of us who choose to we like make ourselves care anyway, even though we may never be incarcerated or personally, like, even though we may never be incarcerated or personally know someone who is or has been like we can nothing stopping us from knowing those people. Nothing stopping us from caring about it.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:14.446)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:35.502)
Well, yeah, but you know what I think is stopping most of us is probably the messaging, not to use that word again, but the stereotypes that we've all been given about prisoners, right? Because, and I think it's so good for us to stop and have these conversations and to think about it, to like analyze that for ourselves of what are the beliefs that we have about prisoners, right? My cousin spent the bulk of his life
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (21:50.688)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:04.6)
from 17 until 60 in prison on drug charges. And I have whole lots of thoughts about, you know, again, changing what we're incarcerating people for and, you know, there but for the grace of God go I, I mean, I use my gummies now they're legal in my state, but they're not in others. It's not federally legal. Like there's all kinds of questions around that. I guess I shouldn't admit that on a podcast, huh? But anyway, like.
There are so many things that we can people end up in jail for or prison for that any of us could if we were really honest with ourselves. And yet we are so indoctrinated from such a young age into these beliefs about what prisoners, who they are or what they are. Right. And what you're talking about earlier, like not only are we made to be afraid of the prison system, we're made to be afraid of the humans inside of that system. And that they're
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (22:47.616)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (22:55.478)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:56.014)
had people who are going to come and get us and if we let them out, they're going to, you know, rape and kill and maim and all of these things when there are so many folks in there who are first of all wrongfully committed. So they didn't even do anything. And second, who did things that a lot of us do. They made a mistake, a really bad mistake and got in a car and drove when they were drunk. But then if other people were honest, how many times had they gotten behind the wheel and they probably shouldn't have either, right? Or who are doing drugs.
other people who maybe do those same drugs or different drugs, but think their drugs are somehow better. Like there are just so many things that people end up in prison for that have nothing to do with being like scary, harmful, dangerous people. They're people who like are like anyone else who made a mistake. And yet we believe these things about them. And I've been as guilty of that as anyone else. And so I think like something like this, just stopping to even think about this issue because it's so out of sight, out of mind for most of us.
that it's really, really great. And I love this idea of being a pen pal. Like I'm going to link to it in the show notes and sign up myself because yeah, what a great idea. But I will tell you, there's that little piece of me because I love to, I like to call out the, the icky parts because I think we need to de-stigmatize the key parts because this is the conditioning. It's not my fault. The conditioning is, but Amelia, aren't you afraid? What about when that person gets out of jail? What if they come to look for you? Right? Like that immediately rushes to my mind. And then I have to quiet that part and say, wait a minute.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (23:49.974)
Hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (24:10.634)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (24:14.976)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:19.104)
I would be if my cousin showed up at my doorstep after four years in prison, I know him, I would be fine. I like I would have no fear. Right. And your pen pal could be the exact same kind of person who just is a human needing human connection.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (24:26.592)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (24:33.461)
Yeah, yeah. And like I have visited him in prison. We've met in person. I... Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:37.678)
I didn't know you could even do that. Like that's, I mean, I know people meet people and end up married to people in prison. So I guess it's possible. But I mean, the pinpale thing, I didn't know you could take that to that next level and actually meet them in Burt's Lamp. What was that experience like for you being inside the prison?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (24:50.699)
Yeah.
Visiting a prison is horrible. You're basically voluntarily going to prison for a very, very short period of time. It's the most surveilled place I've ever been. Imagine going through TSA times a million. That's kind what it feels like. I'm not sugarcoating it. It's like a pleasant just like, I just went and did this in my afternoon. But also, to your point, normalizing these things is important. And there are so many people in the US who do just go.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:55.555)
Mm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (25:20.052)
visit people who are incarcerated with their Saturday afternoons, or they do that every weekend, or they go see their parents or their friend or their loved one who's there. And I found it very stressful, very scary. It triggered every single bit of my conditioning around being a good girl or breaking the rules or being told I did something wrong. I did a few things wrong. I was reprimanded for them very harshly. Yeah, it was like really hard and I didn't like it, but I did it anyway.
and I think that that is also something it requires. Like there's so much.
that we have to do, like to actually change the systems that we want to change, it's going to require so much discomfort and so much displeasure for those of us who have benefited from those systems. And so I'm always trying to be in conversation with myself about what I'm willing to do and what I'm willing to give up. And that was definitely one of those moments where I feel like I put a lot of my own comfort and like discomfort, like put that into practice. The other thing I was thinking,
while you were talking, Becky was like, I think that the other way I did this, and this is much more like spiritual, and it doesn't seem related, but I think it's the same thing is like,
I think that most of us don't believe that we could do the worst thing we can imagine and still be loved on the other side of it. We don't believe that we could really be forgiven for doing something horrible.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (27:00.97)
And abolition requires that we believe that about ourselves and about other people. It requires that we really believe in love and forgiveness.
And we believe we don't have to earn those things through a sort of like utilitarian tit for tat. Well, I like earned up the years I took from somebody like, we to let that go. We have to like really believe in that as an inherent right. Not even a right. I hate, I don't wanna use that word. It's like a state, we have to believe that personally and interrelationally. And I think that...
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (27:36.298)
feeling loved in that way in my life, having a few experiences where I was loved even in the face of doing things that I knew were awful or horrible or just bad, taught me what is possible in a different way of loving, in a different way of being and forgiving. And that helps me believe in abolition because it helps me believe I could do that with and for other people. But if you can't get there, I don't think you can ever. Like, you're always going to believe that, like, there are people in prison who deserve it.
and should stay there, not you specifically, broader you. like, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:09.376)
No, no, I know. That is so beautiful. And it makes me think of a few things. One, it makes me think of my brother who died of heroin overdose and who was in and out of jail a few times and only, I think, because of his skin color, avoided much worse as far as prison goes. And how he was so failed by our systems. He died waiting for a bed, trying to get help. He couldn't get help. And
I think about how many folks end up in prison in that same kind of a situation, right? And I think he inherently deserved help because he was made different. I really believe he was just made different. His brain was different and that is not bad. It's just different. And why can't we meet people where they are and care for them? So it makes me think of him. And it also makes me think of my son. And that for me is where like, I think for a lot of people who become parents,
where we can't always give ourselves that grace that you're talking about. Like, can I believe that I could be loved inherently? When you have a child and you're like, shit, now I know what it truly means, like unconditional love. Cause I've had this thought exercise with my kid where I'm like, what are the worst things he could ever do? Like just the worst things he could do. And would I not love him? And there was just no part of me. Because you know, when you see the news and you see a kid who goes in and shoots up his classmates and it's like everything in you wants to just have poor hate on that.
person. And then I think about my child, and if it were my child, and God forbid, and I hope not. And I hope that, you know, but there's also things I think go beyond just, there's nurture, and there's nature. And I don't know what will happen. But I know I will love him. And I will be with him no matter what, and every step of the way, and I will fight for him and care for him. And yeah, every person in prison is somebody's kid. It doesn't mean that they all are able to extend that same grace, that same unconditional love. Sadly, there are a lot of people who can't.
But there are a whole lot of them who can and they all are people who deserve that same love my child does. Why does my child deserve a different kind of love than anyone else just because he was born to me? That's not fair. That's not right. So I think that's so beautiful. I've always been opposed to the death penalty and I've had these same thought exercises around that. Like what if someone were to kill someone I love? And there's every part of me that's like, yeah, I would probably want vengeance. I would be like, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:33.422)
person deserves to die, right? Because I would be so torn up. And that is why I believe in a system where I don't get to make that decision. Right? And it's hard to say that to someone who's going through those things. But I am I totally feel that I just I think that's a beautiful thought exercise for people. Right? Can you get there because there is that spiritual part. Also, though, this is the other thing maybe think of is religion versus spirituality. Because I think about our puritanical culture.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (30:40.33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:01.27)
And goes against even though like I think I'm not I am not religious. So please are processing this with I'm not Christian. But everything I know about Christianity is at its heart. Christianity should be about exactly what you said. And yet in this like puritanical world we live in, there is so much about earning your love and earning your place in heaven and earning all of these things rather than it just being this inherent gift from God or whatever you believe in. And so it seems like that is
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (31:18.518)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:30.21)
what twists some of this up for people. That makes me sad.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (31:33.662)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I was raised Catholic and I think that there's so much subversion of forgiveness and what it means within Christianity. we see like, we're recording this just a few days after Easter. And so you have this sort of like ultimate act of forgiveness theoretically that's happening with the story of Easter and of Jesus's life.
But also for me, that was always so underwritten by the theology around original sin and around Eve and women as the source of original sin. And really, I think a lot of this goes back to something you said very early on, which is just like good and bad, good and evil duality in that way. I think that that type of duality is at the heart of many
of our Western religions, it's at the heart of liberal democracy. And I think that it's always going to point us in these directions, this sort of like black and white thinking, this good versus bad, this versus-ness of it all. And I think that for me, like embracing spirituality rather than religion has led to a lot of learning about non-duality and releasing that and my understanding of the world. And so that's sort of the approach I would take to
love and forgiveness as well. all of this is also just getting to like, where we started earlier, like it's so it can be so hard to imagine like a world without prisons. And yeah, that is really hard. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that we do have to kind of like fundamentally rework our beliefs about what we believe about human beings. And, and that's really challenging.
And at the same time, it's not impossible work. It's something that I have managed to do in just, you know, less than 35 years of life. I have like changed a lot of what I believe or what I was taught. Now, is there still work for me to do? Absolutely. Am I still, you know, living within the comfort of my privilege all the time? I'm positive that I am. And also, like a lot of that work for me has been very intellectual. And that's not the same thing as like integrating and embodying that, right? So,
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (33:50.08)
For many of us, we may be able to learn about abolition. We can read Angela Davis, but we also have to seek out the somatic practices, the nervous system practices that let us feel safe, even when we are writing someone who's incarcerated, even when we are encountering somebody on the street who we perceive to be a criminal. It requires many levels of the work, like the intellectual, the somatic, the spiritual, all of that comes together. But...
Becky Mollenkamp (34:15.118)
on on somatic side, I'm curious if you have a recommendation because for me, Resma Mennecom's book, My Grandmother's Hands was is just the moat for me anyway, was the best understanding and experience of the somatic work that's specifically related to undoing a lot of our racist history and understanding like and systems and being a part of that now. And in a way that felt like it was so honoring of
both the black experience of that history and the white experience of that history and what it means to be a white body person navigating all of these things. Because there are challenges in that that are real. Does it make them good or okay or no, but it is a real thing that you will have an embodied experience that comes up from living in these systems and learning how to like honor that, be with that and not let it keep you from action is really challenging. And I felt that book was really good for that. I don't know if you have anything that was really.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (35:03.318)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (35:12.714)
I think that that book is definitely like the text, sort of like undoing that work in an explicitly anti-racist way that grapples directly with whiteness and racism. think that is definitely the work that Presma is doing. I also would just say like other nervous system work that I've learned in different contexts. mean, things like contact nutrition, secure attachment work.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:17.006)
you.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (35:39.51)
understanding what a window of tolerance is and how to work expand yours, doing work around safe and sound protocol. mean, they're just doing EMDR therapy isn't helpful for me. That's not strictly a somatic approach, but like, you know, there are so many different ways that we can learn to work with our bodies, even just finding a somatic therapist is really helpful in this and hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:04.864)
and hard in the US, sadly, but yes, it's great.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (36:08.37)
That's true. All my friends who have them live in like urban centers. Not me out here in Nebraska. yeah, I think that like, yes, if you can find a somatic therapist, that's a great place to start. But there are so many beautiful practitioners online or you can buy the book. It's not there are many access points anywhere that you are.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:11.374)
right?
Becky Mollenkamp (36:26.658)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you mentioned too about having to like the, the, the idea of abolition requires, I don't think you use this word, but it's what I think you were saying is like creativity and imagination, which I've heard so many people say, like that is certainly one thing that white people lack on a whole, because we've never been challenged to, right? We, the world has, our world has catered to us in a way that hasn't forced us to imagine something different, something better.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (36:44.689)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (36:55.286)
And folks who have the black experience or any other sort of marginalized experience in this country have always had to be more creative and more imaginative to think about what's possible as a survival technique of like, because when you are facing constant oppression, you have to be able to dream of something else to be able to survive that. but we're often lacking in that. So I think that that's something interesting that you mentioned because one of my favorite quotes in this piece was what if imprisonment.
What if imprisonment is so philosophically anchored to liberal conceptions of democracy, inflected with and infected by racial exclusion that we cannot unthink it, much less de-establish its institutions without reconceptualizing democracy? And that's really big. It can be a little overwhelming and scary. And yet, the hopeful part of me that's living through the time we're in right now is like, maybe all of this is where we are now.
because it is coming to a head and we are reaching an inflection point where we're sort of being forced to rethink our democracy. And maybe as hard as it is and as scary as that can be on the other side of that, maybe there is a world where this looks very different and we get to fundamentally shift some things about our democracy that allow us to rethink institutions like this.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (38:14.87)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:15.726)
I don't know if you have that optimism or not. Believe me, it's only on my good days, because on my worst days, I'm like, nothing's changing, and we're all screwed. But I try on good days to get to that place of thinking, OK, there's got to be some reason for this that's better than just another king.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (38:20.824)
you
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (38:30.934)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I also want to have that optimism and do on some good days. And what I would want to encourage other people to remember is like, yes, we need systemic and structural change. And also, we have to start making these changes in our own personal lives. Like, it's not an either or, it's a both and. And so,
We, there are so many places that we can tap in and begin building this different world. We can live it on the daily, especially if you're a white person in the U S, especially if you're a white college educated employed person in the U S like you can do this. And I think that that's where I've tried to focus a lot of my work this year has just been in being in deeper into my community practices, really rooting in enter personally.
really taking care of myself and the people around me and the people that I know and contend to. you know, practicing abolition in my everyday life can look like proffering that love and forgiveness that I was just talking about, like in the smallest of instances, even to people I maybe don't want to give it to all the time, or who I think haven't quote unquote earned it, which is a thought that comes up for me all the time.
And that's not to like root into any sort of like love and light, like mentality, it's just really to like do the actually hard work of loving as a practice, which I find to be really hard sometimes, even when it's pleasurable. And that's kind of where I'm centering myself these days, like keeping an eye on the ways that democracy is continuing to show.
our liberal US democracy is continuing to show its true colors. And then just saying to myself a lot that I can't change the world, but I can change my world. And I just say that to myself every day, and I just keep going.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:33.846)
Yeah, that's lovely. You mentioned that you taught her book. What was it called again? I know I'm only gonna show notes. Thank you, our friends are awfully obsolete, which I did not know when we picked this reading for you. So everyone knows like this is beautiful that you know this so well. And I'm curious from that experience, like what are, because I immediately think of our school system, especially now that my son's in it and I see it in.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (40:40.382)
It's called Our Prison's Obsolete.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (40:46.294)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:59.744)
in a new way through a different lens and being inside of it myself as a kid where I don't remember as much. But I see the ways that it reinforces the carceral system in the US. And I'm wondering, there other things that we don't always think of? Because like you were just talking about, and I hate like, because again, I don't want to make you the expert in the room by any stretch, but you've taught the book before. And I'm curious what you think about that. Like, what are some of those ways that are outside of the prison system, but of the conventional ways we think of the prison system that we're reinforcing that
sort of feeling or spirit of this country that we may not think about that we could challenge in other ways besides just, you know, getting a pen pal or fighting for reform in that way. If you can think of any, I don't mean to put you on the spot.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (41:44.658)
No, no, totally. mean, there's so many. It's not a lack of ideas. It's how many, which ones to share. I mean, I think that you're right that school is structured in a very carceral way. Anytime we're thinking about discipline in our social context is probably through a carceral lens. The police are an institution that's certainly carceral.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:47.148)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (42:10.182)
I also think that a lot of our healthcare system, particularly the way that we address mental health and addiction is incredibly carceral. We literally talk about it as locking people up for mental health care or for recovery and rehabilitation. We could also think about, and there's a chapter in Our Prison's Obsolete about gender and the way that we police gender is carceral. And that's why one of the reasons we see such increased
hate for trans folks in these, I don't want to in these current times, but like from the same people who are trying to restrict rights and deport citizens, like it all goes together. All of that is a carceral logic in a certain way. But I think that a lot of it also like for me, if I'm trying to apply that to my own life or like how do I unpack or reject
carceral thinking more broadly. It's like anytime I feel like I'm policing, punishing or disciplining myself, that's taking it. That's a carceral logic and places where that can come up. I mean, there's so many. I look to diet culture as one of the primary sites for me where I policed, punished and disciplined myself for eating and moving my body or not moving my body. Like nutrition and exercise can be two places where we are incredibly carceral in our thinking. I saw a really nice sub-stock.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:18.04)
Yeah.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (43:33.078)
piece. Well, the piece was whatever, but the title was really good. There was essentially about like, getting fat as anti-facts, fascist practice or praxis. I was like, I love this. This is very up my alley of just like, refusing to diet because diets are a carceral logic. Like if that helps you, like, I love that like break up with diet culture. That's really beautiful. So
Also, because I am who I am, like most social media apps are surveilled in a pretty carceral way at this point. You know, we're also seeing the way that many of our like, period tracking apps or menstrual cycle tracking apps are feeding data to governments. And there's a lot of fear around that being landing people in jail or prison and the carceral system around that.
Sometimes it's more metaphorical, like I'm policing myself in a metaphorical way and that's carceral thinking. And sometimes it's more looking at the ways that the technologies we're interacting with are feeding directly into the prison system, like the school to prison pipeline. There's so many places where you could start to pull at these threads.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:40.088)
Yeah. And I mean, I think as you talk about that, that I also start to think about, I guess, because of who I am as a business coach, I think of the ways we do it inside of corporate America, especially, but also just the ways that we repeat those patterns for ourselves often as people who are self-employed. like just throughout our work culture is so much of that, like rigid adherence to rules.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (44:49.376)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:03.34)
just for rules sake, right? Who said we all have to work from nine to five if that's not what works and all of that kind of thing. And then the punishment kind of system and systems of like rewards and punishment and surveillance as well inside of the workplace. So that's really interesting to think about. So just trying to bring those things up and question it. always, I mean, I don't know, cause sometimes it feels overwhelming. Like, what can I do? Right? And I feel like even just questioning.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (45:05.461)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (45:27.35)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:29.09)
Like, why does it need to be this way? Who said it needs to be this way? Who benefits from it being this way? And asking the questions that make people at least have to explain it. And if they can't, then they have to actually be honest about some of these things. And that can be challenging for people.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (45:37.972)
Yeah.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (45:43.956)
Yeah, absolutely. Raising those questions and sharing our experiences. I think we have to, or we have the opportunity to normalize a lot of what we're going through and we're just pushing through or the things that we've lived through with our families. Becky, I think it was really beautiful the way that you shared your cousin's experience being incarcerated and brought that in. I'm sure there are people listening to this who are like,
I don't know anybody who knows anybody who's in jail or in prison. And now they realize they do, right? We have to normalize these realities so that we can all feel safer sharing our experiences and our families' experiences and our communities' experiences. And then we also have to ask why. Why is this happening? What is going on here? Do I consent to this? Am I consenting to this in my behavior implicitly? Am I consenting to it explicitly? Do I agree with it? Again, we have to start.
pulling at those threads, but like sharing, think, is one of the primary ways we get ourselves to asking questions about the things we really need to ask questions about.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:45.07)
Yeah, that's so good because the more you pull threads, the more you find the ways that you are still participating. Even if you're like, I've never been to prison, don't know if I've been to prison or these people who will say the things like, well, just don't do anything bad and you won't go to prison, whatever that kind of nonsense. the more you pull threads, the more you realize this prison, this is this system affects all of us in different ways. It's this conditioning that we start from early age. So thank you for talking with me about it. I wanted to ask you to, especially for you, since you have
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (46:50.75)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (47:05.213)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:14.722)
like you have a special relationship with Angela Davis's work and have taught it and things like that. If you were able to get in the room with her and just ask her one question, either about this piece or just generally, I know it's a huge question, but I'm curious. I know you're like one, I wanna ask Aidy. I know, it would be hard.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (47:26.624)
My face.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (47:30.262)
Honestly, I feel like I would just go mute because I would be so impressed to be in her presence. You know, I feel like my relationship to Angela Davis's work is no more special than anyone else who's read her words. Like she is such a talented writer. And that is why I brought her into the classroom to read with my students when I was teaching. And like, that's why it felt so important. But I think anyone who picks up this book can have such a beautiful relationship to her words.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:33.186)
You wouldn't know what to say. Alright.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (47:58.304)
whether you're reading just the article that we're talking about here, or you're reading her book, Our Prison's Obsolete, or you're reading her other book, Abolition, Politics, Practices, Promises, which is a compilation of many of things that she's written. If I were...
Becky Mollenkamp (48:10.402)
I've read Women Race in Class, which is another one of her books. That's the one I've read, but I do want to read more of her work.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (48:14.133)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. She's written so many amazing things. And she's also like lived through so much of what she's writing and talking about. So I don't know what I would ask her. Like, there's part of me that's like, I want to ask her what comes next. But I think that's a cut like that's in her work. Like everything she writes is like, we have to build it, we have to tear it like deconstruct these systems and get rid of them. And we have to put new methods of care in place. Maybe
If I were going to ask her a question, would just ask her like right now I would ask her like whose work that she's looking to that inspires her like, what is the next generation of thinkers that she has helped bring up and that she is looking to for what we're building right now? I mean, she's one of them. But I think that like she is an elder in the community now in a certain sense. And so I'm so curious, who are the younger people that she's looking toward?
broad sense of younger there, but that might be the question I would ask.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:18.318)
That's a one. I'd be curious too. I mean, I think my question is probably as much of a cop out as yours. The other question and it's one I think, but like, I would just love to see if she would be willing to close her eyes and just like tell us this vision she would have of if she were to like, we were getting some sort of fresh start, a brand new nation, right? And she was getting to describe how she would like to see it built from the scratch, like from the beginning.
ground up, like what would it look like? I would just love to have more of her vision of like collective thinking around community making and what that looks like. I know a lot of the answers are in these books, but just to hear her weave that tail, like with no, it's not about having to change what exists, but getting to start brand new. What would that look like and what would be different? And again, that's probably a cop out, but I still think she would paint an amazing picture that would be really inspiring. I have a feeling. Who do you think should read this piece?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (50:03.638)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (50:11.211)
Yeah, I'm sure.
Well.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:15.054)
Because I did think, I will say, like I didn't know what it was going into it. And it is academic, I felt.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (50:18.262)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (50:22.226)
Yeah, I thought it was really interesting that this is what they publish as an excerpt from the book. My actual answer is like, everyone should go read our prisons obsolete, where she actually lays out and it's very short. This is a tiny book that's like less, it's 100 pages long. This is where she actually lays out like, what is abolition? What are all the things that are wrong with prisons? What are like, the ways that we can intervene and interject and you can like get rid of that?
Becky Mollenkamp (50:28.61)
Right?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (50:51.242)
I think that if you're interested in her work on abolition, this is like a very straightforward and comprehensive place to go. The piece that we read to discuss today is really just like a super, it's like a needle of the conversation, right? Like she's just trying to say that like, here's the relationship between abolition and our liberal democracy. And here's the direct connection between slavery, incarceration and the right to vote. And here's how we can think about.
how those things are intertwined and how perhaps there is like the democracy we have right now relied on slavery and relies on incarceration. So like we actually can't have a better democracy until we get rid of those things. Like that's the interjection I think this piece is making. But if you're like new to thinking about abolition, I think it can be a little hard to know where she's coming from. Like there's some assumptions inherent in this that you sort of know things about abolition as you're reading. that's
That's my take. I'm curious because you haven't read Our Prison's Obsolete and like you read this piece. Do you feel like it's for everybody? Like what did you, who do you think it's for?
Becky Mollenkamp (51:55.074)
I don't think it's for everybody. I think anybody can read it. I don't mean to say that there's like, you know, it's too elevated for some people or anything like that. I just think I agree with you that I feel like I would be worried if this was someone's first introduction to Angela Davis, that they would maybe be like, I don't know if I want to read more because it is, it's pretty academic. It's pretty, I just found it to be a little more of a challenging read in that way. Like, and I'll be honest, that means kind of dry, right? Not as interesting as I think.
some of her other stuff might be because this was, who was this given to? was delivered to the cultural studies symposium through a college. And my guess is that it's written for an audience of folks who are more studied on these issues. it makes sense why it's written that way, but I don't think it was written for a general audience or even just a general feminist audience. So yeah, I would say start somewhere else. And I have not read that book, but I'm very excited to, especially if it's only a hundred pages, I can definitely get through that easily. Add that to my list.
Because I think that sounds like a better place to be. I would I don't know abolition politics practices of promises. I haven't read it. But I also is that the same book that talks about Ferguson or is that a separate book that she has about Ferguson? OK.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (53:05.834)
I think that's a different book because this book is just like years of her writings and speeches. So I think this new release has is more like just the transcripts and essays and things like that.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:12.47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:18.929)
The book that is called Freedom is a Constant Struggle, Ferguson Palestine and the Nodations of a Movement. And that one is one that's often cited from her. I have not read it either. I intend to. I've read Women, Race and Class. That's as far as I've gotten. I love Bell Hooks and I've gone through all of her stuff. And now I really need to probably read more Angela Davis. I've watched some of her videos as well. She has a lot of videos on YouTube that people can watch and speaking about a lot of these same issues. But anyway, yeah, I would say maybe start somewhere else.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (53:22.283)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:47.832)
But it's not a long read, so you can also read it. Just my, biggest thing I guess I would say is don't judge her based on just this piece. Because I am linking it, you can read it, it's available online, it's even, you know, and it's only like, what was it, 11 pages double spaced on doc anyway. So it was not real long. So you can read it, but just don't let this be the only thing you read if you find it dry.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (54:09.142)
Yeah, if you're new to like philosophical thinking about abolition, maybe start elsewhere. If that's already something you're familiar with, this is a really nice like specific angle and perspective on it. So yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:22.892)
Yeah. The biggest thing I think I took is just that it's really, feels so incredibly relevant to this moment, which I was really excited about because when I picked it, had no idea. And then when you, when we decided to do, was like, okay, this will be interesting. And the name abolition, commender democracy. was like, that sounds like it could be relevant. But then reading it, I was like, holy smokes, just with everything going on, it just, that particular thread you're talking about that she's, she's weaving there is so spot on for this very moment. So I did appreciate that. Yeah. Well, thank you for talking with me about
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (54:28.427)
Yes.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (54:48.352)
Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:52.11)
Anything else that you highlighted or made sure that you, cause I don't want to make sure it wasn't an interview. I it was a conversation. Um, but I just want to make sure there anything else that you were like, I want to make sure we talk about this or did we hit the highlights?
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (54:57.686)
No, not at all. We're just chatting.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (55:05.526)
I feel like we had a nuanced conversation. There are definitely other things I underlined, but I feel like we left people with a lot of great moments to consider. And yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:14.912)
my gosh, for sure. And I'm definitely going to sit with the part. I think the thing that I'm going leave most with that you said was about that spiritual practice piece of it. Because that is heavy, heavy work, but so, so life changing. And I mean, I've been working on that kind of work too, but I have not thought to apply it necessarily to abolition and the prison system. So thank you. Thank you for your time, Amelia.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (55:39.4)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for having me, Becky. I love the concept for the show. I love talking about feminist texts, and I can't wait to listen to all the other episodes.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:49.25)
I'm so excited. I'm just like, I love that it's going to make me read a bunch of things. Like that just excites me and expose me to a whole lot of new things that I haven't been. And I have a feeling there's going to be a whole lot of things that link from one thing to an next. So that'll be really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (55:53.226)
Mm-hmm.
Amelia ⋆⭒˚｡⋆ (56:02.258)
Yes, absolutely.