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The Factory Floor is hosted by the three co-founders of Conversion Factory, the marketing agency at the forefront of SaaS growth, marketing, and tech trends. Episodes are released on Twitter one day early, @coreyhainesco.
Every other week Corey, Zach, and Nick break down what’s working right now in SaaS marketing, share real-world lessons from the field, and give you the strategies you need to outpace the competition.
You can also find us on YouTube, X, and everywhere you listen to podcasts!
Don't fall behind. Subscribe. Like. Drop a comment. Or not. The ball is in your court.
Nick Loudon (00:00)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the factory floor. I'm joined by Corey Haynes and Zach Stevens. We are the founders of Convergent Factory and we're gonna be talking about websites, marketing, all the good stuff. We have been loosely discussing websites and...
the cost benefit analysis of websites. ⁓ and Zach was mentioning that buying a website is like buying a house. And so I want to kind of leave it to him to intro that as like, what does that mean? ⁓ if you could maybe like tell us a story, like, you know, what, yeah, what this, it's not, it's not weird, but it's a little bit different of a metaphor. So
Zach Stevens (00:40)
how I write.
Nick Loudon (00:48)
⁓ intro as to why is buying a website or get a website like a house.
Zach Stevens (00:55)
Well, you know me with analogies. If it's not food, it's something else that's highly relatable. so we had, I remember there was a client who told us they got their first website for six grand and it took a month. They weren't happy with it. And so this has been stewing in my mind because...
And it's just an interesting comment for somebody to make. And I like trying to get into the mind of somebody who's looking to buy a service from conversion factory. And at the same time, I get these emails from Redfin because my, wife loves looking at houses. do too, but I'm, checking it. What's that we all do. Yeah. Especially in San Diego. Yeah. I hit 27 and now my joys in life come from browsing the houses in.
Nick Loudon (01:35)
We all do. We all do. It's like a secret addiction for everyone.
pretending that you could live
there.
Zach Stevens (01:47)
on Redfin
and Zillow. And so I was thinking about it and looking at these houses and you can set your filters and stuff for things like, know, amount of rooms, the amount of bathrooms, ⁓ et cetera.
But even so, you get these houses that have a very wide range of value, even if they have the same amount of bathrooms, the same amount of bedrooms, which is what I would equate to pages on a website. It's like, I only need this amount of pages, or I only need this amount of bathrooms and this amount of bedrooms.
So if that's the case, why is the value between two houses that have the same features like that vastly different? And I wanted to unravel that and think about the comparative attributes with websites and houses. So it's like,
I think the core premise of it is this, and bathroom, or bedroom and bathroom count is a very myopic view of value for a house, the same way that page count is a terrible proxy for value on a website, because there's a lot more than that. And I've thought through what the other things would be that you would compare, that you would invest your time into, and that's what I want to go through and talk about with you guys.
Nick Loudon (03:04)
Yeah. Yeah. We can kind of dive into that a little harder. I agree. I think that it's tough because like page count, it's like what's on the page? Page count is like we were kind of like trapped in this box of like it's the same as like room amount of rooms or bathrooms where like page X amount is the cost for a page, which is a very difficult thing to
Zach Stevens (03:17)
I'm
Nick Loudon (03:32)
like truly quantify in terms of its value and quantify in terms of it, like the actual value it's bringing to the business. ⁓ So maybe we can like kind of deep dive, like what about those pages makes them valuable. Go ahead.
Zach Stevens (03:48)
No,
I've got different elements listed out if you wanna pull up our Notion doc. I have some key things that I think we could talk about with this. But to back up your point on that, so Conversion Factory has a set price for our starter kit on new websites and then additional pages because we run a more productized service. But even with that,
we would charge differently for a single page than somebody else might. So you get this weird, there is no like universal value placed on a page. know, like not the same way that you can put a value on a dollar or like, I was gonna say a staple like milk or gas or something like that. But then even those tend to vary based on
locale and you know the type of brand and other stuff but aside from getting into the weeds on other consumer goods focusing on websites there's like I said I think that was how many did I list I think I have eight
I have eight elements that I would go through with the value of a website. The first one is very obvious. It's aesthetic. The design craft of the website is something that provides more value. The same way that on a house, a, you know, something that has a more architecturally interesting build or, you know, a unique room layout or even things that are very detail oriented, like
If you go to a house that has a very well done doorway, like that's just a doorway, you immediately have a greater sense of value in that house. And the same thing would be applied to things like a button on ⁓ a website. Like if I grab a door handle and it feels really janky and like it's made of tin, it's gonna snap. I'm not gonna have the same kind of.
appreciation for it. In the same way that if I hover over a button on a website and it has some kind of thought and intentionality put behind it, I'm going to perceive that it is of a higher value. So the first one is this is not something that you can necessarily quantify the way that you could the total count of rooms or bathrooms, but aesthetic.
brings value and it's also something that I think incurs time cost as well, but worth it. The same way that choosing these very specific, not even decorations, just like the actual build of your material and rooms incurs time, but also increases value.
Nick Loudon (06:33)
Yeah, it's interesting. was when you were when you ⁓ initially like posted some of your thoughts and sent some of your like notes on this comparison of buying a house and buy your website. My first thought was a friend of mine who had bought a house in like a development area where they're like they're not like prefab homes or anything. They're like they're new builds is like kind of the phrase which is like
10 to 20 to 50 like brand new homes that are kind of the same style, all built in the same like, you know, track all next to each other. And then I was talking to someone else about that same development and they were like, they're crap. Like they're just built so fast. they're like, there's no like they were priced so low because they're like saving so much money on the quality in which they're building them. And it made me like think on this question deeper, which is that, you know, there's
Corey Haines (07:15)
You
Nick Loudon (07:31)
just because something has a certain number of rooms or a certain number of square footage or whatever, and even a certain amount of aesthetic value doesn't quantify the functionality or the, I guess the word's ⁓ power, the ability of the site or the ability of the home. Just because there's three bedrooms doesn't mean
that bedroom number three is a good place to live. You know what I'm saying? Like bedroom number three could be actual garbage. And the doorway like just because you know, or the kitchen is X amount of cabinets and X square footage that the format of the actual like cabinetry and the like island and the stove like this, you know, the cabinet could open into the wrong direction and totally mess the whole thing up.
Zach Stevens (08:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well,
well now you're getting into element two, which is functionality, but.
Nick Loudon (08:32)
Tell us about functionality.
How does that play into aesthetic also?
Zach Stevens (08:36)
Well, before that, did want to hear ⁓ what Cory's take would be on this. So Cory launches things very fast and Cory has frequently referred to our teams as the polishers for a lot of the stuff that Cory ships, because Cory ships really fast, but he's not a designer or someone who, it's not that he doesn't value aesthetic, but he's not going to take the time to try and...
push it that additional 20 % that is gonna make it feel bespoke and intentional. So I'm curious, Corey, what's your take on aesthetic and its value?
Corey Haines (09:14)
Yeah, well, as you were thinking about it, like the, the translation over to houses, ⁓ like you said, certain people can have different preferences for style. Like I really love Spanish architecture, ⁓ and maybe more like Victorian even potentially, but there's certain styles that I really don't like. And even if it like checked all the boxes of the specs, I'd be like, wow, it's just not really the type of place that I want. And I think about it for websites because
sometimes people are looking for a really specific aesthetic. Maybe they're into the more minimalistic, designery, dark mode, ⁓ aesthetic. And that could be even a little bit cookie cutter. And so no matter what you put in front of them, if it's not that they're just going to be like, no, that's not really what I want. Not really what I'm looking for. Even though the value, ⁓ that's not really like,
Zach Stevens (09:50)
Mmm.
Corey Haines (10:12)
⁓ related to the value of the website. Ultimately, the website is there to get you some sort of result, right? It is a marketing asset. so it's not that it doesn't matter, but people do subjectively put their own value on something based on the way that it looks and if it fits their preference. ⁓
Zach Stevens (10:31)
Right.
So it sounds like to you, like you have very specific taste and I mean, Victorian houses and Spanish architecture, that's very specific, you know, compared to something that's a little bit more like post-modern and almost brutalist, right? Like that's not gonna fly for you. But I would find that very interesting. You know, like the house that you see in Joshua Tree that are very geometric and not ornate.
Corey Haines (10:48)
Mm-hmm, right.
Zach Stevens (10:59)
would be the ones that I think are very beautiful. And so that's the interesting piece is that, know, the subjectivity of the value regarding aesthetic is so vast. And so when you have something like a website, and if that's something that matters to you, having someone that can actually walk through that and help you guide, like, they're not just gonna be like the developer who's like, I'm gonna make this thing because I like it, or like the development of this group of townhomes.
Corey Haines (11:02)
Yeah.
Zach Stevens (11:23)
but I'm making something that's bespoke and crafted to suit you and your taste, which is where I think that that's like a, it's a very difficult measure of value to pinpoint.
Corey Haines (11:34)
Yeah. And if someone was going to build you a custom home, you would want them to have a good perspective on all the different aesthetics and styles and ⁓ how to create your vision and something that fits what you have in mind without being a hodgepodge of random things. Like they can still keep you within the guard rails or something that's going to look good. Even if you have some wacky ideas that don't fit the Spanish architecture style, usually, right?
Zach Stevens (11:44)
So yeah.
Corey Haines (12:03)
It's not going to be this Frankenstein of styles. whereas, you know, you could go to a builder and they could be like, sure, we can have a little Spanish here. We can have a little Victorian there. We can have a little brutalist over there. And then you end up with something really ugly.
Zach Stevens (12:18)
Yeah, and you get the pizza with everything on it. Exactly.
Nick Loudon (12:21)
Yeah. So you guys are saying
that having a ⁓ paying lowest amount of dollars to someone who's going to use a template home or a template website is not ideal.
Zach Stevens (12:38)
It might work. just saying that it's, I think that it's up to you to decide whether that's a piece of value or something that you value or not, but it does have an impact on the price. know, like if you want something that is bespoke, that is going to actually speak to, to visually communicate what you want people to feel about your company, then that's a measure of value that you have to take into consideration when you are looking to buy this. The same way that you would take it into consideration if you were gonna have somebody build you a custom home.
Nick Loudon (13:06)
Yeah, it harkens me back to when I first started building websites and I was following a bunch of people on Twitter and just kind of like ingratiating myself in the world of people building websites for a living. And someone had posted like, hey, I just learned how to build websites on Webflow two months ago and I just sold this ex big client on a
$50,000 website using a template. And I was like, ⁓ no, there are bad people out there like who are, and this isn't like just a general hate on templates. It's just that it, and I'm, my assumption is that the company didn't realize that they were buying a template and that they weren't buying something bespoke and they weren't buying something that was ⁓ picked.
Corey Haines (13:59)
Mm-hmm, yeah. Right.
Nick Loudon (14:04)
based on the aesthetic or the importance that they held. It was completely like, hey, this is what it is. And he was just kind of shooting from the hip, and they said yes.
Corey Haines (14:18)
And to Zach's point earlier too, yeah, I build and ship a lot of things. ⁓ but I still, and, like, don't try to make everything look exactly the same. And I also don't work off of like a singular template. Like I want everything to have its own unique bespoke aesthetic and something that matches what it is. And I can get it maybe 80 % the way there, but then I do try to go the extra mile and thank God to have some.
talented designers on our team who can help me to go the extra mile because that last 20 % is what takes it from, you know, a B to an A plus. And that can be a big difference in value the same way that, you know, you would going from a, ⁓ a nice, maybe, yeah, a nice modular home or something that's still fits a specific style. Maybe it has some like Spanish architecture.
Zach Stevens (15:07)
modular home.
Corey Haines (15:15)
fundamentals versus like a custom built crafts home that was like designed by someone from Spain.
Zach Stevens (15:24)
Yeah, aesthetic. It's a big one.
But anyway, so that is one of the things that I would keep in mind as you are buying a site, no different than your house. The aesthetic is something that won't show up on a spec sheet, but you know that it adds value. Element number two, I actually didn't combine element number two with element number five. This is functionality and framework underneath. So this came up because my wife and I are in the process of getting new windows for our house.
and our house had some modifications that were made to the windows that made them not like...
traditional size windows. like windows come in very specific sizes that are typically used in new construction builds unless you get something that's completely bespoke. The issue is that you have to then make these custom windows that cost more and are more difficult to work with because there's like further lead times and all that. And this reminded me of like, you know, building in Webflow or even custom code with specific frameworks in mind. In Webflow, was, you know, everybody was shooting from the hip and then you got things
things
like client first, Mast and Lumos, which are conventional frameworks that make it easy for somebody to come in and work with their stuff. The same way that it would have been much easier for a general contractor to come into my house and get windows for us and even like retrofit them and save us a bunch of money. It's not the case. ⁓ having that framework underneath that is adhered to that you can easily identify and say, yes, they are building in Tailwind.
It's like, know, tail or React 18 or 19, whatever it is now. But there is at least a framework that is going on here that is recognizable as a pattern. That's element number one as far as functionality.
and frameworks. Number two would be things like, you know, the functionality of a house is stuff that's sub-structural. It's beneath the surface. It's things like the plumbing and the foundation and the electricity. And this would be the same thing on your website based on like what you need this to do. Is this an e-commerce website? Is this meant to drive leads? If so, what is it connected to? Because there's going to be things that are outside of your house that are connected to your sewer and your power grid. And there's going to be
Certain things in your website. It's like this is connected to specific CRM's is it connected to slack? Is it connected to billing or like what kind of tagging an attribution? Do you have so that we can actually monitor all these things and figure out if they're not working? So if functionality
or, and sorry, you could even extrapolate that out to like quoting tools or calculators or real-time booking or configurators or gated libraries and membership areas. There's a whole litany of different functionalities that you could add, which is becoming a little bit easier now with AI, but you have to think through that entire experience and make sure that the functions are going to work. Cause if you don't, it's the equivalent of having lights that don't turn on and toilets that don't flush.
Nick Loudon (18:32)
I think it kind of like harkens back to your I Would say one of Zack Zack's core life ⁓ Frameworks bad word frameworks because we just use framework, but mantra there we go, which is that ⁓ You know everything is has trade-offs and so functionality and framework has trade-offs having windows and
Zach Stevens (18:46)
mantra.
Nick Loudon (19:00)
that are a specific size, maybe supports a specific, very specific goal. And the trade off is does that, hey, I want this window to be this exact size, so I get this amount of light in this specific room. Does that support the overarching goal, which is what is the house for? And so the house, the functionality and the framework of the house, every decision that you go into to make about the size of the windows.
how well the plumbing functions, how you're gonna organize the hallways and the doors and all that stuff. All of that should be in support of the goal of the home, which is the same as it goes for our website, which is what framework are we using to build the website that should be in support of the goal of the website. So we have this conversation with clients all the time, which is where should I, how should I build my website? Should it be custom coded?
Zach Stevens (19:40)
Right.
Nick Loudon (19:58)
Or should it be on a website builder? And it's just like Zach's mantra, which is there's a trade-off. Do you want bespoke, everything exactly pinpointed, or do you want easy build for anyone who joins your team? And there's a ton of intricacy that lies underneath all of those decisions. But ultimately, you need to throw all of those questions out and decide what an
make sure that you're focused on the goal of your home or the goal of your website.
Zach Stevens (20:30)
and
long-term trade-off as well. Because it's not just about right now, it's about a year or two down the line. Can you build on top of this house? Or is it going to be impossible to match? Can you add a room on? Exactly.
Nick Loudon (20:41)
Right. Can you add a room on?
Corey Haines (20:45)
It makes me think of, we had a conversation with some folks at a conference a couple of months ago who they built their website on like a custom built CMS that pulled from Google docs because the person who did this thought that that would be faster and easier for them to create pages. And it achieved that goal too well because then they had literally thousands of pages that then were sort of these orphan
throwaway pages that they had to end up quelling and wanted to migrate off of because it sort of created this giant, know, there were so many weeds and there's all this mess everywhere. And so it was almost like the wrong kind of functionality for them.
Zach Stevens (21:27)
Nets. Yeah.
It was, yeah, people make decisions like that without analyzing the long-term effect of how you're going to build later. Just like the lady who owned my house before me made a bad decision with her custom windows, which.
Nick Loudon (21:52)
Bad for you,
but it might've been good for her, who knows?
Zach Stevens (21:56)
I don't know, some of the other decisions
she's made with this house would make me question that. right, element number four.
or sorry, element number three, gosh, we gotta move faster through these, ⁓ is the buying arrangement. So I thought of this because if you own a house, then you are responsible for everything. this is one of the reasons why Conversion Factory created its model was because it's a long-term partnership, where we are supposed to be there to help you out with no matter, whatever this thing is that's on your website, you have us in your corner to help you add to it.
Nick Loudon (22:06)
I know.
Zach Stevens (22:33)
to
refine it, to maintain it, to do whatever we can. If you buy a website outright, it is, like the responsibility becomes yours. There's no...
Like no one else is involved. If you add a new page onto a website and it breaks or you hire like another contractor who's not the person who built the house originally and they do something to it that mucks everything up, that responsibility lies on nobody except you. keeping that in mind, there are ways to incorporate this with your website because you could lease a website, you could have a maintenance program for it, you can buy it outright. The thing to assess here is the response
responsibility shift of if I buy this outright, I own it. And when we say you own it, you own it. Like it is yours.
Nick Loudon (23:22)
Yeah. This goes right back to your to your mantra,
which is trade offs. There's a trade off to this exact thing, which is, you know, everyone says, when you buy a house, you don't realize all the costs until you buy it. And then you're like, ⁓ this is bad. And I have to fix this. And, you know, the the I need to repaint, I didn't even realize it. And the landscaping is wrong. Like, there's all these costs, ancillary costs that you don't think about, which kind of like
Zach Stevens (23:27)
you
Nick Loudon (23:51)
reversing it back into websites is like, the new trend is like, hey, rent, don't buy just like wait on the market, wait on that stuff. And so it's kind of the same idea with websites is like, hey, it's the general consensus has always been buy don't rent for homes. And I feel like it's kind of shifting to like, hey, you might need to rent depending on your situation. And the kind of the same thing is true for websites, which is if you're not at the level to take care of your site.
in the right way, it might be the best decision to just rent it or pay someone to get it up and to continue to maintain it and to add to it in a rented format.
Zach Stevens (24:32)
Yeah,
I I could lump element number six in here, which would be staffing for ongoing maintenance, the scales with complexity, because the bigger a house you have,
Nick Loudon (24:37)
Yeah.
Zach Stevens (24:43)
the more ongoing help you need because you can't clean and take care of all those rooms by yourself. And this is why people that have large houses typically have someone like a house manager or a property manager to work with them. I would even equate this to like, it's not even a house that you live in, but it's a house that you own that you expect to get some kind of value out of like one that you would rent. And in that case, you hire somebody who their sole job is making sure that property is up and running.
that the renters are paying on time, that the electricity is to spec, that there's nothing wrong with the house. like, consider that. The bigger your venture on this, the more likely it is that you are going to have to outsource some of your staffing. Now, whether that's done with things like AI tools or something else, I don't think it matters because people who buy houses like this and the same thing for people that buy websites,
as a investment in their business.
typically are going to hand it off to somebody else so they can focus on what they are really good at. Like their job is not to manage the website and make sure that things are running smoothly, it's to do other stuff like build a product, go for the next new big marketing campaign that they are after, or do sales. The things that somebody else can't do. So I would love staffing with that as well to the buying arrangement of are you going to have to staff up to make this thing run?
Nick Loudon (26:07)
Yeah.
I think this kind of like maybe this plays well into the next element that you have, but you know how like you go into someone's house and it's the small details that you see that are well taken care of or not well taken care of that kind of leave the full impression of what the house is about. Like, Hey, there's like, I kind of can see some like the baseboards are a mess.
Or there's something like that weird cabinet is the handle's broken. it's the small details that kind of speak to the overall quality and the overall value of a home that things like staffing, like someone who's around all the time to clean, to fix, to change would resolve that.
kind of leaves the whole air of like what the home is about. Like you kind of have a preconceived notion when you go in and you see a small problem that expands across the whole home.
Zach Stevens (27:16)
It shows the seriousness that they have taken with that impression of themselves and their image and the way that people perceive them. I think that there's, that ties into aesthetic too, but like the maintenance and upkeep is the only thing, like what it says is how much you care.
Nick Loudon (27:35)
Yeah.
And that ties into the furnishings. Tell us about number seven that you have. ⁓
Zach Stevens (27:40)
We skipped one, which was neighborhood, which is actually where I think Corey
would be really interested in. Cause I thought of this too, know, like if you there's the houses that are more expensive or the ones that are in crowded areas and, know, have a high.
⁓ demand and the same thing is true of websites. It's just different, you're not competing for land, you're competing for eyeballs. This comes in the form of search engine results pages, ⁓ inquiries, content, SEO, your ad strategy and the site cost versus the market that you're competing in, I think also has to be taken into consideration. Like if you are going up against...
If you're in an emerging market where there's not a lot of competition, you probably aren't going to have to pay as much for a new website. But if you are going up against someone like, where your competition is a Salesforce or a more enterprise, if you're going for a linear or a Notion or Slack or Loom or whoever, there's a big swing and ding-dong competitor in your...
in your market, you're probably going to have to pay more for your website in order to compete head to head.
Corey Haines (28:55)
Yeah. This reminds me of the offensive versus defensive marketing stuff where like, you, gotta rise to the level of your competition. And, ⁓ that kind of sets the bar. Like who are your competitors? What are their, what's their web presence? Like how aggressive are they with their marketing? What is their design acumen? you're always trying to find an edge, right? And so sure, if you're in a uncompetitive market where maybe it's just a bunch of
sleepy incumbents or flailing startups, then yeah, you can get away with something that's a little bit more DIY duct taped or ⁓ you don't have to put as much into the website per se. But yeah, if, if you're in a competitive crowded noisy market with some high spending incumbents and some really aggressive flashy immersion startups, challengers, then
you're going to have to rise to the occasion. And, and that does say a lot, right? You don't want to be the, the ugly duckling of the group and the lineup when people are, are doing all of their comparison shopping and then they get to your site and they're like, Hmm, doesn't seem as professional. Doesn't seem as fill in the blank X, Y, and Z.
Zach Stevens (30:17)
Right, think that so ugliness could be equated to cognitive load and if you were requiring somebody to have a high cognitive load on your site, then you were robbing them of calories and making it more difficult for them to make a decision because you are killing them slowly. So, or faster than the, than your competition is. Yeah, fascinating stuff. Okay, Nick, we wanted to keep moving on to.
Nick Loudon (30:41)
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah, do you? I know we have element eight still. I think that's your last one. Which is- ⁓ you still have seven. ⁓ furnishings. Okay, cool.
Zach Stevens (30:51)
We have seven and eight. Seven and eight. Yeah. Seven,
Corey Haines (30:51)
Seven and eight.
Zach Stevens (30:55)
well seven's interesting because, so I put furnishings as something different than the aesthetic of the home because in thinking about it, ⁓
furniture within a website is one of the pieces that can really make or break your home. Like if you walk into somebody's house and they have cheap furniture, imagine walking into a mansion and there's fucking lawn chairs in the living room. You're gonna be baffled. Like it's not gonna make sense whatsoever.
Nick Loudon (31:27)
Or you're going to think it's baller.
Zach Stevens (31:32)
Yeah,
it's the... you know who would do that? It's some rap star for sure. It's like, it's my house, gotta...
I've got a Tommy Bahama chair in the living room right next to my 100 inch flat screen. But you know what I mean? Like you get weird stuff. Like you get a weird vibe if your furniture is off. And the same thing happens in your website. But instead of chairs, tables, coffee tables, rugs, and paintings, it's photography, video, illustrations, the copy, and the contents. Because it's not the same as the design necessarily. Because it changes from page to page.
putting effort into those elements almost yields just as much value as the design and build of the home itself, like what you pick. And if you see a house with...
really tasteful, well-designed furniture, you think, man, the person who lives here cares a lot and they got great taste. I trust them with the decisions that they have made because, this room is an experience. From the painting that is on the wall to the vases that are on their console table, all the way down to the decoration of their chairs, even the napkins that go on their dining room table.
Nick Loudon (32:33)
Mm-hmm.
Zach Stevens (32:53)
they care quite a bit. And I think this is one of the harder parts to realize is that that stuff is actually one of the harder things to make, because it's the most tedious and the most time intensive with everything else. because pages can be templated. The content on them, regarding the imagery, the iconography, the illustrations, the videos, that all still has to be done in a bespoke fashion. And cohering all of that is harder than building the website.
Nick Loudon (33:22)
Yeah, it really, I think it is because it's the, it's the glue that like connects all the elements together. It's like the copy and the way that the text is laid out and the way that the images and illustrations and videos are all laid out and the rounding of the borders are laid out. Like everything kind of like ties together correctly.
Zach Stevens (33:43)
it.
I would even say that, so the things that you're mentioning, I would put that as the, what we talked about before, which is just like the aesthetic of the home, right? It's like the wrappers around that. I would equate that to like the hallway or the floors or like, the walls that everything is on. Think things like coffee tables and chairs, right? Where it's like, that is, you can buy off the shelf stuff for that, but if you see someone's couch in their house and it looks exactly the same as somebody else's couch, you don't find it as interesting. But if it's a bespoke piece of
furniture, you tend to notice it and it has a different feel to it. Same thing with a coffee table. And I would equate that to the images, videos, and stuff that are housed within the containers that are built on pages. Like, does that make sense? Or am I, did I lose the, no.
Nick Loudon (34:34)
You're off, dude. You're so off.
Corey Haines (34:40)
I think about
like ⁓ the difference between someone who is like an interior designer versus like a stage tone versus someone who has like you could have someone who buys a nice house and then furnishes it really poorly and it just becomes like cluttered or tacky or or gaudy or just like doesn't match the exterior of the house either. ⁓ And
And that again does make a difference. I was thinking about this the other day because I went to a website and, um, they had like really, really good pop-ups, which is pretty rare because a lot of times when you go to a website and you see a pop-up, it's like kind of obviously this element that doesn't really match the rest of the website and it like kind of flickers. And then, you know, it's, it's like this, yeah, it doesn't feel the same. It's sort of like,
Zach Stevens (35:26)
Yeah.
Doesn't it feel the same? Yeah.
Corey Haines (35:36)
putting a billboard in front of your house. Um, and then we did this website and they have these really nice pop-ups that were super clean, obviously matched the rest of the site exactly. Had these really smooth transitions. And I was like, huh, these guys know what they're doing. Like these are, this is some pretty advanced stuff because they were like different pop-ups for different pages. Um, and that's what I think of too. And I think of these like furnishings and these little extra features.
in the house that make it obvious that there was a lot of care and a lot of attention and yeah, exactly.
Zach Stevens (36:12)
intention.
Nick Loudon (36:15)
Yeah, well,
hey, Zach, we're over time. So can you wrap us? I want to take us back to the start, which is this idea of someone who said, you know, the first company I worked with had a, you know, $6,000 and it took one month and that kind of stuff. You the you get what you pay for that kind of thing. Can you kind of wrap us up with kind of your final thoughts on?
Zach Stevens (36:34)
Yeah.
Nick Loudon (36:43)
on this debate and the website is like a house thing.
Zach Stevens (36:48)
Yeah, so the thing to keep in mind here is that looking at this simply from the view of page count is myopic and it's not going to help you decide what the site is actually worth if you are looking to buy one. Here are some things that I think you should ask that are better questions.
What is the craft and the detail level that you are looking for? What are the functional outcomes that you are looking to get from the site regarding leads, and clarity of your message? What are the systems that are behind the website that you need to work and operate in order for this to be a good investment for you? Who has the ownership and responsibility of this? Is this something that you're looking to take on yourself and fully manage or are you going to need help? And that could be for a multitude of reasons. Maybe you are not equipped to do this.
You're not a handyman.
And it's just without outside your remit to work on this, or it's a huge project and you are going to need hands because you simply can't be in 30 different pages at once, even with the help of AI. What is the competitiveness of your neighborhood? Who are you going up against? Because that's going to impact what you should be spending on this. What kind of framework and documentation do you need to make this thing grow without your help or with the help of your team?
And finally, what kind of assets and content are you looking to put on here and do you have the capability to furnish the site in a manner that is appropriate and commensurate with the amount of money you're looking to get returned on it? I guess the biggest thing to think about with this is that there's a $6,000 website and a $30,000 website that both have the same number of pages and it's not the same house because they are completely different.
Nick Loudon (38:36)
Amen.
Corey Haines (38:38)
Mic drop. I do think it's a very good
point. It really is because
when you're shopping for a house, it becomes so apparent that the price is gonna be so different for every single house. And sometimes you end up buying a house ⁓ for cheaper, even though it's sort of more valuable, like you would choose it over a more expensive house. And sometimes you realize, my gosh, the house I really want is in a completely different price range than I originally expected.
because of all these things that I care about that I didn't realize that I originally cared about. And it's only when you go searching for the lower cost options that you realize what these differentiating factors are. And so putting a $6,000 website up against a $30,000 website up against a million dollar website is kind of a moot point. And like it becomes obvious once you look at each of
the websites, can't just scale down to the cheapest one because what you're getting is going to be drastically different.
Zach Stevens (39:46)
or compare them based on pages. Like they could all have the same amount of pages, but they're gonna be vastly different as far as why they cost that much.
Nick Loudon (39:51)
Yeah.
There are agencies in our same world that charge $300,000 for a website, $100,000 for a website. So you've to evaluate all the intricacies, all the details. Either way, fantastic. I love the premise of website and house, so it's great.
If you have questions or comments or you want to talk to us about it, feel free to reach out. But that's it for the factory floor. Appreciate you guys. Thanks, Corey, Zach. We're signing off. See you on the next episode. God bless.