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Welcome to THE home of Grand Canyon hiking. If it happens below the rim—from short day hikes to Rim2Rims and beyond—you'll learn all the tips and tricks to have your safest and most memorable Grand Canyon experience.
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The hard part is the day in and day out every day, eight days at a time, ten hour days, and you have to like to suffer.
Zeena:You're listening to the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show, the voice of Grand Canyon Hiking. Presented by Hiken. Hiking packs and gear built to help you hike your best hike. Here's your guide, Brian Special.
Brian:Well, it's been a week now since our interview with Grand Canyon Trails supervisor Adam Gibson, and your takeaway seems to be about the same as mine. We don't know. And the thing is, it seems unlikely we will know anything on the future of North Kaibab and how long the opening date will be delayed until after Adam and his team get in there sometime in April. Now May 15 is, of course, the traditional opening date of the North Rim. And even if that's ultimately not possible, this quote right here stands out and makes it clear there is an intent to get the trail open at some point this season.
Adam:Right now, you know, it is possible for the North Kaibab to be open and to users at a at a at a decent time frame this year. May maybe it's not May 15. You You know, that might be a bit early considering some of the construction we need to do. But it it's it's a goal. It's not entirely an achievable goal either.
Adam:It's, if we continue to have a very mild winter and we understand people understand that that the conditions up there are gonna be quite different. There there are gonna be additional risk. There are gonna be a lot less services available up there, but kinda take more of a, you know, backcountry user, wilderness frame of mind, it is possible for that type of user to to be able to get up and navigate through the North Kaipab.
Brian:Yeah. Still a daunting task ahead, so we'll just continue to hope for the best, but not expect it. Well, that interview was done in the Tepetes Narrows just below Havasupai Gardens as Adam's crew worked in the background. And looking back, it's hard to believe that the North Kaibab part of our conversation was more than an hour into it. Yeah.
Brian:For the first hour, we talked about what it's like working on a trail crew in one of the seven natural wonders of the world in an environment both remote and hostile. Adam is 42 now, which as you'll hear is approaching old age for a trail worker, especially one who's been at it for decades already. Life on the Grand Canyon Trail Crew on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude show powered by Hiken. Check out our Canyon tested front access packs at hiken.club. That's hikin.club.
Brian:Okay. Adam, the first thing, I I think you should be the one to kinda set the stage of where we are and what you guys are doing and what all the background noise is.
Adam:Sure. Sure. Absolutely. So where we are is we're about a mile and a half, one to one and a half miles north of Havasupai Gardens in a in a section we call the Narrows here on the Bright Angel Trail. And we have a crew, an NPS crew with a support from a conservation corps, from ACE, helping on, they are doing a construction project, what we call rehabilitation or reconstruction of the existing trail.
Adam:But they're improving it, making it more passable and safer for hikers as well as for stock users.
Brian:Yeah. And this is just such a a beautiful stretch of, of Bright Angel through the the Tapeats sandstone sandstone here. You got the the waterfalls. It's a great environment, I would guess, to work until the sun breaks through.
Adam:Yeah. The sun's gonna hit here pretty soon, in about thirty minutes, and it's gonna make their lives a little bit harder. It's gonna it's gonna be hotter, you know, and they'll be seeking shade for their lunch break here around 12:30. They'll be happy to have that. Lunch lunchtime is sacred with trail crew, very important to to refuel.
Adam:Typically, when I'd have a thirty minute lunch break, I would spend all thirty minutes eating the entire time.
Brian:Oh, wow. Eat those calories.
Adam:You eat the calories. These guys will burn, easily burn, 5,000 calories in a day, doing this kind of work. So they they have to eat quite a bit to to sustain that that that con constant steady work pace.
Brian:And the trail, is open at the same time that all this work is being done. How many guys do you have on this project right now? How long has it been going on for? How long will it take? Because I think that really shows like how in-depth and how how just how much there is to these these projects that you have.
Adam:Sure. Sure. So so we have a an NPS crew of seven working on this, and they started as soon as we could. We were able to hire, the the very next week, right around Thanksgiving when the when the government reopened, we we had seasonals back on. We had our permanence already back in, and we were down here really the next week.
Adam:So, really, you know, kind of the December is when this when this project started. And we're planning to continue through the narrows here, you know, really up until and through May. Not not quite with this large of of a crew. It'll be it'll be it'll be it will be shrunken down a little bit. But it's it's a long it's it's slow and time consuming and very arduous work.
Adam:You know, everything we do is is we work with raw natural materials. Everything we're seeing that's been constructed here has been gathered from the surrounding landscape, and that is at least half of the of the work of the job is to safely gather material adjacent to the trail, near the trail, or in active drainages. We'll even set up high lines across canyons to move stone building material from places we've gotten approved to harvest stone, and we'll quarry it, move it to the location, and build with it. And and, you know, the rocks in this section, we're seeing a lot of it's essentially what it is is a a stone causeway with incorporated stone checks with a sub base of crush fill, and then they cover everything. Everything is covered in dirt about six to eight inches above, the top of the stone checks.
Adam:If you look at the size of some of these stone checks, you know, they're moving moving these around. They're shaping from the, from the bedrock and from loose stones that are adjacent to the trail. You know? And these things are weighing some of them are weighing as much as 400 pounds that they're moving into place. They're probably averaging more like a 150 to 250 pounds.
Adam:But, you know, one guy can can move that. It's ideal to have two people help move it. But they're shaping it to where it's a nice tight precise fit and it's locked in, you know, from the outside stone, parapet wall construction. And in this case, here they're they're actually keying straight into the bedrock here in the narrows. And it's it's really strong.
Adam:It also is a nice even grade which is particularly nice if you find yourself to be a mule rider here at Grand Canyon. It makes a big difference, a much smoother ride. And it's also nice for the hikers.
Brian:You know, this kind of shows me I was on Hermit last week. Mhmm. And it's it's not as maintained as the Corridor Trails obviously. And it was constructed over a 100 years ago. And that section in the Coconino Mhmm.
Brian:Where where it's just cobbled the cobblestone essentially is what it what it looks like. And then I see what these guys are doing and it's it's it's somewhat similar. And I guess what I'm trying to say is there's there's an art to this.
Adam:Oh, yeah. Yeah. This this is a craft. This is something, you know, if to to get really good at particularly trail trail style, trail construction stonework, you know, you really need to about six to seven years to kinda really get a strong mastery of it. Right?
Adam:And then you further hone it over the years. Like, we were talking about Mark McLean, the crew leader, working just up trail from us. You know, he's been doing this roughly for about twenty years, and and he has a real a real mastery of it. It might seem easy, but he's actually real efficient with with where where he strikes the stone. He knows exactly what it's gonna do, depending on where he strikes and what what type of hammer and chisel he uses.
Adam:This is very much, this is very much an art to this. That cobblestone that you're referring to on the Hermit Trail, we we do quite a bit of that. We we refer to it as riprap. That's is a is a common term. It's it's a trail term.
Adam:And it's it's notable because, you know, we're burying that rock, to a full depth of 10 to 14 inches. And so you might only see the three or four or five inch wide face, poking up, but that rock's gonna be, you know, 10 to 12 inches deeper sitting in there. You lock it all in like that and you encase it with stone construction or you butt it up against, you know, existing bedrock and you have a really solid really solid trail. The strongest trail that that we can construct here through these traditional methods here at Grand Canyon. And we do quite a bit of that as, you know, the South Kaibab is a is a place that has a pretty robust example of that style of construction.
Brian:How much pride is there in what you guys do?
Adam:Ideally, they take a lot of pride in it. I got yeah. Yeah. We there's a tremendous amount of pride in in not just the work we do, but just in, the lifestyle, the way of life it is to to to to work and and be on the trail crew. It's it's a it's it's it's a commitment to the way of life.
Adam:Your job doesn't really end even when you tool up at the end the day. You know, you still you gotta hike back. You're often there's always camp chores you gotta do. The way we set it up is these guys are construction crews and they rotate and they do cooking duties every night rotating those duties. And so all that means is they hike back about an hour an hour early, get cleaned up, and then they spend a couple hours cooking a really big meal, for the rest of the crew.
Adam:Yeah. It's it's a real way of life. You have to love it. You have to love to be outside and live outside. You have to love to develop strong tight bonds with with good friends.
Adam:You know, it you do have wonderful camaraderie in this style this way of life. But you also have to be okay with and make your peace and really even like it a little bit. You have to like to suffer. You know, you're gonna you're gonna hurt. The hiking's gonna be the hiking's kind of really the easiest thing that we do.
Adam:You know, that's the easy part. And and we we absolutely love to hike, of course. But it's the hard part is the day in and day out, every day, eight eight days at a time, ten hour days, you know, all year long, sustaining a pace, doing it for, you know, ideally for a career as a lot of our employees are. They're very much career bound. You have to be okay with being in some pain and accepting that and and having an aching back.
Adam:You're gonna be stronger in the greatest shape you've probably ever gonna be for the rest of your life, but it's it does come out of it does come with with some with some suffering.
Brian:Man, you're 42 now. Yeah. You said this is your second tour at Grand Canyon. Yeah. And you were telling me that you went back to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
Brian:Yeah. And did a lot of work there for I think eight years before you were lured back to the Canyon. Yeah. How different is are are different national parks in the environment and the the trail work? Because I assume this this offers, I mean, all the different layers of rock and sediment that you have to get through.
Brian:I I assume it's a lot different than say Great Smoky Mountain is.
Adam:Oh, it's yeah. It's it's very different. Yeah. You you you kind of couldn't get more dramatic in the differences. The Cannon, you're you're right.
Adam:The the different layers, you stick around here long enough, four or five years. If you stick around here and do work year round over the course of five year four or five years, you'll probably have worked in every layer geologic layer that we have here at Grand Canyon for the most part, even working from the river. And and so you've come to learn these rocks and you remember them and you know, like, how they handle, how they work when you shape them, how how heavy they are. Some some of these old ancient sandstones are just so surprisingly heavy. Some of the old limestones like the Redwall limestone is just tremendously heavy, dense, sharp material.
Adam:You remember those types of details. And, and that's yeah. It's it's it's dramatically different. You find yourself, you know, in the Grand Canyon, you're gonna be very heavily focused towards doing a lot of stone construction. You're gonna get a strong mastery of it.
Adam:We do a lot of pretty complicated rigging operations, moving stone to, you know, from one location to the next. We do a lot of fall protection, especially down here in the corridor. But then you find yourself in a place like Great Smokies and and you're kind of in a whole different set of skills. And there, you know, it was a very much focused towards, chainsaw rough carpentry. You know, I did a ton of that.
Adam:We we actually did a lot of hazard tree work in a lot of the campsites and and some of the front country settings, there at the Smokies. But, you know, we go out with chainsaws and some drills and, you know, some hardware, and we'll drop a black locust tree, know, as an example out there, and then debark it, rotate it to where, the crown is is upwards, and then we would snap some chalk lines to match that crown, and then take a chainsaw, use about 32 inches with the bar length, and then rip that whole foot log. I I ripped one that's about 80 feet long once, and we ended up bucking it down to 60. But you can, you know, it's just a whole different skill set. You master, you do a lot of different types of copes, a lot of different type of chainsaw, rough carpentry.
Adam:It's a good time. But then you also incorporate quite a bit of stonework there. If you if you if you go to some of those trails, you'll see that's it's a whole different type of stonework. They got some old granite. They got some very old gneiss, very hard, very rock to work with, and and you might find yourself harvesting it from digging into the mountainside.
Adam:You know? It's just a different it's a whole different set of skills, and and the environment has is really what sets what what type of construction you're gonna have to do at that location.
Brian:A lot of helicopter traffic, obviously. What's this one doing that's above us right now?
Adam:That one is the Stronghold engineering contractor helicopter. It looks like they're going in, to move some pretty heavy slings that looks to be a medium lift. So they're probably moving three to 4,000 pound sling loads, moving around from wherever they have their various construction crews, working along doing the TransCanada waterline construction. Just so much going on. There's a lot going on.
Adam:There's so much going on in Grand Canyon right now.
Brian:And somehow you're you guys keep everything open for us, for the hikers, for the tourists. I assume that's important to the to the park because it would be just as easy to shut some of this stuff down.
Adam:Oh, it's it's very important. It's it's important to all of us. That's that's where a lot of our our pride goes towards is we want we want visitors to come to their their parks. These are their lands. You own it.
Adam:We all own this just as much as as the next guy. We want them to come and enjoy these wonderful outstanding resources. Grand Canyon is just a one of the great the best ways to experience it is to get down and hike along it and see its grandeur. See it from see it from the rim and get down and see it within it. And it's a whole different experience.
Adam:And so it's very important to us, and that's, that's actually a lot of the source of the pride we have in in doing the work we do.
Brian:Well, I can speak for our community. We are very grateful for everything that that you guys do. What is a What's a day in the life like on on a trail crew? Like, let's just start with today. You know, you're the supervisor.
Brian:You hiked down from the rim, I believe this morning. These guys didn't. So what's a day in the life like for everyone, for you and for
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Adam:It's gonna be a little different from one person to the next, I can speak for this crew. You know, these guys are probably up at 5AM. They were definitely having some coffee, making up some breakfast.
Brian:And they're staying at Garden?
Adam:They're staying at Havasupai Garden. That's where they're staying.
Brian:They have a bunkhouse?
Adam:We have we have a bunkhouse there. We're very happy with that. We usually, keep it pretty full in the winter months when we're working down here. So they they wake up around five. They enjoy some coffee.
Adam:They they they make a pretty significantly large lunch if they hadn't made it the night before, and they pack, you know, typically four to six liters a day. Probably one is is got some electrolytes in there. They just have some peace. They usually quietly read is probably the most common thing. There might be some some light conversation.
Adam:It just depends on the crew dynamics. You might go to another crew and it's a very lively morning crew, and they love to just be super active in the morning. This crew, could tell, is more of like, I'm gonna chill and be quiet and read my book kind of a morning. You know? And so they're gonna do that.
Adam:They're gonna have a little time, and then they're gonna be up, by this crew is currently starting at 06:30AM. So they're outside of 06:30. They're doing some stretches. The crew leader typically is leading them in a safety discussion for the day. If they're not doing it at at the safety circle, then they're coming to the job site after a stretch session, and they're having a little safety meeting.
Adam:And then they're as soon as that's done and everybody's input has been heard, they're breaking out the tools and and they're going to work. And and they're gonna they're gonna find themselves going to work for the for the rest of that ten hour day. And, typically, they're just, usually, the plan's pretty simple. This this is pretty straightforward. It's a matter of getting your material, getting a rock, you know, and getting a stockpile of rock, and then moving your material into place and and doing construction with it.
Adam:And they'll do that up until today. They'll be off at five, so they'll probably work until about 04:30, And then they'll be tooling up program 04:20 and then hiking back to the bunkhouse where they'll, you know, just decompress and rest for the afternoon. And so that's that's a that's a pretty typical day.
Brian:What's the rest of the evening look like when they get back to the bunkhouse and they've got their free
Adam:Most of them are you know, they're they're gonna spend some time getting cleaned up. Some of them might go and just take a little hike, enjoy some scenery. Myself, I if I'm at Phantom Ranch or anywhere near there, I'm I'm I'm quite often fishing, fly fishing. I love to go and enjoy the water where I can. Then by taking a walk, I might go enjoy the sunset, but they're they're definitely the most important thing is they're gonna be having a really a really big dinner, and they typically sit down and have that dinner together.
Adam:That's a real special time, and we've always maintained that tradition here at Grand Canyon to sit down and have a meal together. It's a it's a real important part of the of the bond and the connections we have, as and and every crew, really does it that way here at Grand Canyon. After that, they're they're probably most of them are probably gonna be just kinda chilling out either in their tent or in their bunk or in the living room, reading a book or maybe listen to some music or maybe playing a little bit of music if they hike down an instrument and and if they play, that type of thing. And then myself in the Canyon, I typically go to bed around 08:00, And then I'm asleep and I'm out like a rock until about 5AM the next day.
Brian:And no Internet, no Starlink, anything?
Adam:We don't have any of that yet. There that's we've never had that.
Brian:That's I think that would change everything if you have Yeah. Yeah. Have the good or for the bad.
Adam:I've never been a a tremendous fan of it because I like not having the close connection. Unfortunately, more and more of every aspects of federal employment in in most people's you have to have some connection. So they're actually even gonna be putting Starlink at the bunk houses, so that they can have connections to the Internet and be able to I think there's there's definitely some positives to that. You know, people can more easily contact their friends. They can contact their with that kind of access.
Adam:But typically for us, it's been a landline phone phone call, and we even used to have to use phone cards, to call out long distance.
Brian:Still doing long distance.
Adam:Yeah. We used to still do that. That's that's been updated recently as well. But yeah. So, you know, with StarLeaf coming, that's gonna come with a lot more connectivity, and and and that will chain that will change that dynamic a little bit.
Adam:And I do see that coming this year is the, the compliance has already been processed, and I think it'll be getting installed probably sometime this spring or summer.
Brian:That sounds like a careful what you wish for.
Adam:Yeah. Careful what you wish for. I I'm not the biggest fan of it, but also, you know, if it if it improves some of the some of the lifestyle, down at for the members, for for the employees, I'm all for it. You know? I want the crew to to feel like they're being taken care of and and being heard.
Adam:None of them have asked for this. This is an initiative that's been taken, you know, really by by management. Some of the management decided it's it's it's important that we have access and computer access, especially to a lot of these data calls that have been coming kind of with short notice, with our current administration. That's part that's one of the things we have to we've had to make adjustments for. And, sometimes we've we've we have had had to find ourselves hiking out a little early to go meet these data calls because we don't have access to a computer, but we can only do it through a computer.
Adam:You know? So that has that has a bit of an impact. So at least, you know, less one of the bright sides is having that connectivity in a in a computer at the bunk houses and places like that. We'll still we'll be able to fulfill those deadlines, without having to take us away from the important work that we're doing.
Brian:So it's not just Instagram and TikTok. You got a practical reason for this.
Adam:Oh, yeah. That that would that's probably the main reason for it because there's there's just so much that you have to be able to do now through the computer system. We we were we we operated largely through paper even up in just a couple years ago. We did hard copies. We still come down here with hard copies and have safety meetings, and that's how we document it.
Adam:And we'd scan it and and load it that way. But it's getting to a point where now everything's just they want everyone don't don't even want you printing it out. They want you to keep it in the computer and go as paperless as much as possible. And so, with those kinds of requirements, yeah, you have to have that kind of connectivity.
Brian:How'd you get into this?
Adam:Yeah. Ironically, I was I was a little bit lucky, you might say. You know, my my dad actually built trails when when he was a young man in the Pisgah National Forest back in the late seventies and early eighties. So the Pisgah National Forest is it connects to the Blue Ridge Parkway into the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and it's in and around Nashville and Brevard, North Carolina. That's where I where I was born and raised, was Brevard, North Carolina.
Adam:Lived in Waynesville for a a long time as well. And so I was a bit fortunate to know that this kind of work existed. My dad took us hiking probably just about every weekend. Every Saturday, we did a hike. We do some backpacking and camping.
Adam:It was a part of a part of my upbringing, you know, being outside, going fishing, going hiking, going just sightseeing, maybe seeing historic civil war sites. And so I was lucky when I was 14. There was a a a pretty wealthy realty company, called the Toxway. It was the Lake Toxway Realty that had bought a lot of private land up in Lake Toxway, North Carolina. And, they had a lot of interest, because they bought it from a lot of the locals.
Adam:They had a lot of interest in wanting to bring in a lot of the local kids to kind of, that were from that area to go in and and help build build a lot of trail systems within this large real plot of land where they were developing, you know, some wealthy homes and stuff. And so, part of that is is is, getting that opportunity when I was about 14 and 15 and even 16, joining that little private, conservation corps, you might say, where we focused on trail work, and we did a lot of, we actually did a lot all kinds of stuff. We build trails to housing plots and and whatever else, you know, develop mountainsides, mountaintops, build playgrounds, all kinds of cool things. So I was exposed to know if this kind of work existed, which I think a lot of folks don't really become familiar with it until they maybe leave college and they find that they're interested, in outdoor type of work and maybe they go and volunteer with the conservation corps. So, but having exposure to this type of work and and kinda coming from, roots where my dad had done this kind of work, I actually went in knowing this is what I wanted to do.
Adam:And so I went in and studied forestry, out of Haywood Community College there in Waynesville, North Carolina. And, on my weekends, I'd volunteer with the Smokies, with the trail crew. I'd also volunteer with Appalachian, Trail with ATC and, and just do whatever I could do, and I'd go and do it for free. I'd go bust my butt for free. And then, sure enough, you do that you do that long enough, and and you see someone employed that makes hiring decisions.
Adam:In my case, mister Tobias Miller at Great Smoky Mountains National Park, he saw me. I worked with him. He's like, well, yeah, I'll give you a job. You know? You wanna get paid doing this?
Adam:I'm like, sure enough. And so I when I graduated from forestry, I had a job the neck the very next Monday, doing this kind of work, I have not left it. I have I have not had a single season away since 2005 from doing this kind of work. Back to back seasons, usually working between Grand Canyon and Great Smoky Mountains National Park.
Brian:Well, how'd you end up at the Grand Canyon? A boy from the South.
Adam:Yeah. Twenty years ago. Right? So Internet, worldwide web was, it was there, but it wasn't as as predominant as it is today. Right?
Adam:So I I remember, I would make monthly trips to the local library where I could get to Internet access. Right? And so that's I had I had better Internet access there than I even did at my at my community college. And so I'd I'd go there and I'd make a point to look for jobs, once a month. And I believe that the for that first job I applied to at the Smokies, I believe I filled it out in pen and faxed it in.
Adam:I think that's how I did it. Was it was gone and paper
Brian:Yeah.
Adam:And faxed in is how is how I submitted that. But that that's how I got into it. And, and and fortunately, too, at Haywood, it's it's it has such a good forestry program. Some of the local, parks and and national forest would send representatives to recruit from from their from the school forestry and wildlife. And so they were always able to get at least a couple of employees if nothing permanent, but at least something seasonal from time to time.
Adam:And and that definitely had my attention and I just I went into it loving it and I've loved the lifestyle ever since.
Brian:So you were looking for you were looking to get out. You were looking to go somewhere else and that's how the Grand Canyon came up?
Adam:Yep. Yep. I I checked jobs were here and I was I was actually aiming to get to, more towards Montana and and the Pacific Northwest, which made a lot of sense. Right? I studied forestry.
Adam:I worked around trees, had had tree work experience. But this this place was hiring, and I was and I needed a job. And so sure enough, I I came here as a w g three laborer. I was making about $12 an hour back in that was late two thousand five, and I ended up sticking around. I had had the intention to go back to The Smokies and start bouncing to other parks.
Adam:I was definitely interested in getting up to Olympic Olympic and other places in the Northwest. But I fell in love with this place. I just absolutely loved, you know, growing up in in in Southern Appalachia, you know, sky is beautiful but it's you don't have such big huge expansive views like you do. And really, you don't have anywhere like like you have them in the Southwest. And I just fell in love with it.
Adam:I love being able to go from the North Rim. I could look across 90 miles, you know, in most directions and just see this incredible landscape of Red Rock and, the San Francisco Peaks. I could see the canyon itself and all that beautiful Ponderosa pine and pinyon juniper forest. And then on top of all that, the sky was just so unbelievable that sometimes it would win the day. Right?
Adam:Because it was just that pretty. And just that kind of landscape, that is it just inspired me, and I I felt like I had to stick around. So I did stick around.
Brian:Had you ever been to the Southwest of the canyon before you got a job here? No.
Adam:Is that
Brian:the first time you'd seen
Adam:it? I'd never left the South when I got a job here. So I I had bought a little $1,500.19 91 Chevy Sonoma and, I barely had an I barely owned enough in my little apartment I was living in to fill the bed. I couldn't even fill the bed. If I didn't have a bike, it wouldn't have been filled.
Adam:Came out with a couple pillows and a blanket and some sleeping bags, you know, and a bicycle and, and came out here from from scratch and lived in the labor cabins there on the South Rim for for about a year, which is just not very luxurious living by any stretch. But didn't matter. You know? I was I was in the canon working a lot here in the canyon. I was all over I I was fortunate in that I was working out of Phantom Ranch, on on my second season.
Adam:I was fortunate to get on the river pretty quick. Getting that river experience absolutely hooks you, you know, if if you like that that type of lifestyle and being able to access those trails and do that type of that just it's even more primitive trail work than, it's just a very it's a very minimal, use of tools and and and very raw material that you use there. You don't really even quarry it. Very minimal shaping. Really enjoyed those really isolated regions.
Adam:Really enjoyed just the whole river lifestyle and experience. And so that definitely helped hook me. But I would say more than anything is it was the inspiration of the canyon and this and this surrounding landscape that that hooked me more than anything. That and then working with fine gentlemen like mister Mark McLean, the crew leader Mark. Here.
Adam:Yeah. I've been working I've known him for twenty years and worked with him off and on over all the years, and you just develop such a tight friendship and some of the things and adventures you go through, you know, working in this location and then going out and recreate and hiking and enjoying the resource on your days off. And some of the adventures you get into in those situations are just very memorable and and experiences, it's just one that kinda keep having.
Brian:I love how you guys call it the resource. The resource.
Adam:Yeah. The
Brian:resource. So what was it when you when you laid eyes on the canyon for the first time or when you got to this region? I mean, so different than the South obviously. I lived in the South for a while too. I mean, it's a night and day.
Brian:Yeah. Do you remember what you were thinking like the first time you laid eyes on the canyon?
Adam:Well, I I was stunned. You know, the first time I seen it was actually went out to Mather Point to what where Mather Point is today, and and it was it was a different different place at that time, but, the view remained the same. And I I was actually very much taken aback. It was hard for me to comprehend. You know, I I had never seen anything quite like that.
Adam:To be honest, when I first looked at it, got a little dizzy. You know? Yeah. It was it was just to understand what it was I was looking at. It was pretty hard to comprehend.
Adam:And then you sit there for a few hours and you really just watch the the changing light and you watch the clouds move move past the canyon and you start to really get an understanding of what you're looking at. And then you start devoting some time in here and living and working in it. It's, you know, the scale of it starts you start to kinda comprehend the scale of this place and just how massive it is. And and, yeah, it was it was it was quite shocking though. The first time I saw it, I remember it because, I make a point now to if I when I encounter employees or if I have friends or family come out here, I try to go and and and share that experience with them sometimes when where at when I can.
Adam:Let them see it for their first time. If I can be there, I'd like to see it because it's everyone has a little bit of a different reaction. But one thing that it seems to be consistent that I see is everyone is just just really amazed. They're very much taken aback at just how incredible, this place is and what they're seeing.
Brian:I mean, I see all the time where somebody will say something online about, hey, I've lived in Arizona my whole life and I've never been to the Grand Canyon. Is is is that the most mind blowing thing you've ever heard? I mean, it's it's so hard to believe. So what is your favorite reaction that you have seen from someone when they've laid eyes on the canyon for the first time?
Adam:My favorite reaction, I would say, is the is the individual that's that's taken aback. But I I I would say my most memorable one was a was a colleague I had out here that came out here and worked on the detail from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. His name was Eric Bonert, Just a real talented trail worker. But his reaction, really like to get. He was right there at the Bright Angel Trailhead, and he was helping us do some snow operations.
Adam:So we were clearing around, Culb Studio. And I was like, oh, take a look at that, for Eric. And he would he tried to just play it like it was so nonchalant. Like, it wasn't such a big deal at all. But even he was just absolutely taken aback.
Adam:You know? I think that was by probably my single favorite, memory of of of seeing someone see it for the first time. Yeah. It was it was a good one. Just trying to play it off like, that's not such a
Brian:big deal.
Adam:Absolutely not not doing very well. There is such
Brian:a joy in that. Yeah. And that's gotta feel so good for you. I mean
Adam:Yeah.
Brian:To see people even when you're coming down to work and seeing people hiking on these trails that you've worked so hard to, you know, maintain. I'm curious if you look back at the history of these trails at all. Sure. Especially like North Kaibab and, you know, seeing how they built these trails. Yeah.
Brian:Is that is it kinda mind blowing to you as someone who knows something about this stuff?
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Adam:Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely amazing. You know? You kinda can't help.
Adam:I I think it it's very similar to kinda lifestyle of the old the mountain man. Right? The the peep folks that would go and, set up and live in the Rockies and just make their living trap. And, like, you you had to be just an incredibly rugged, tough, you know, hard living individual, hard working individual. And, yes, some of the some of the the construction work, some of the old historic construction work, which you can see, all over the place, some of these old walls, some of them are very old.
Adam:You know, it's it's just impressive. The South Kaibab, the fact that they built that, like, in a year Right. Is is just amazing to me. You know? And they did it with a with a heavy winter, and they were just setting up these camps, and they were just going for it.
Adam:They were just laying rock. You know? The rock they found and where they put it, that's where it went. You know? As soon as soon as they laid it, that's where it lived.
Adam:And they they built just a tremendous amount of structure, to, to cut a trail through that on that ridge, and that that is the South Kaibab. That that one's sometimes the most impressive to me. The North Kaibab was amazing. You know, there's old, you know, the the rust, the old rust path. It's it's just a it's it's it's a complex history, and it's and it's an incredible history.
Adam:And and it's it takes a real rugged individual that just loves to be in that kind of place to to live to live, you know, live in the canyon and to, and to love to work with their hands and to work with raw material. You know? It makes sense that a lot of those guys that were miners at at first, and then they realize that there's a lot more value here and just coming in here and experience this place.
Brian:Yeah. Yeah. How long, you said it took a year to build South Kaibab, which is just mind blowing. Yeah. Knowing what you know now in management at NPS and the Grand Canyon and all the regulations it takes to do everything in permitting and safety, how long would it take to build South Kaibab from scratch today?
Adam:Well, if we were just cutting in a tread, cutting in a trail, and just building the retaining wall and not really focused on anything else and just, you know, making a trail with the drainage, it's it's hard to say. You know, the safety requirements and all the all the compliance requirements, I mean, it it there's just no way that you could that we could do it today in a year. It's it's just not gonna happen. You know? I think it would take I think it would take more like five years for us to be able to do it, you know, with a comparable workforce.
Adam:They had a pretty large workforce. You know? And I I think, you know, to to the extent that we build today, we we definitely build to a higher standard. Yeah. It's a it's a bit more precise.
Adam:It was quite a bit more precision in what we're doing. But, you know, to to slap it together quickly, I I still think it would take us more like four to five years to do it.
Brian:And that's after all the permitting and everything. Right?
Adam:Permitting the the safety. You know, a big thing for us is is you gotta it's really just a whole different way of of looking at it. Right? Like like, we put a lot more value today in protection of life. You know, back then, I think it was a bit more acceptable.
Adam:At least where I'm from in Appalachia, you know, there wasn't as much value in protection of life, especially in in a in the construction setting, as there is today. And that's a good thing. That's a good improvement. You know? One trail that strikes me as as an example that kinda that really shows shows that way of thinking is the Colorado River Trail.
Adam:You know, when they were when they built that trail and the seas were building that trail, you know, they were their expects they expected someone to to die on that trail. Their plan was to call it to call to name that trail after their first construction worker that died in the in the construction of it. And they're very fortunate that no one did die. And a very dangerous trail. You can as you you know, those who who have hiked along it, you know, they had to do quite a lot of blasting through that base layer, to build that trail.
Adam:So it it would have been very hazardous. You know, they really weren't working in a ton of fall protection. They would use some, but I feel like they probably used ropes more to protect their tools to keep them from falling in the candidate than than themselves. So it was just a just a different way of life back then and and and way to way to do things. And now we we put a lot more effort into making sure that we're doing it safely as we can, and that's really important, I think.
Adam:It's important from my point of view to actually keep people coming back, and I think we've been very successful in that we do have people return here season after season and year after year. And I've been you know, ever since I've been back in the last six years, that's that's been pretty consistent. And yeah. And so just having that kinda old school hard charging mentality, I don't who cares about safety? You know, I I definitely experienced quite a bit of that in, in in the trail my my trail construction experience.
Adam:Haven't done over twenty years. And I think the way we approach it now, is is the most effective. We're able to get a lot of good work done, but we're also able to get people back up to their, their lives, you know, and back to their family members, safe and sound and not broken. And so That
Brian:would seem to be pretty important. I don't know.
Adam:That's pretty important. It's important to me. You know? There there was always that hard charging kind of mentality. Even even just, like, ten or fifteen years ago, I remember seeing it a lot more.
Adam:And, you know, people, I there's not many trail workers that I've known, and I've known a lot over the years that have made it thirty years. You know, I know I just met one, gentleman from Yosemite. He made it thirty seven years doing trail work at, from Yosemite, and he retired. He's he made it the longest that I'm aware of. I think about some other old folks, mister Bill Dabney, an old packer.
Adam:He worked here at Grand Canyon and at, Big Bend National Park. You know, he he was a mentor of mine, early early on. You know, I was impressed by how he was able to to stay in the field so much and retire and and be able to leave it after about thirty four, thirty five years of doing it. But there's not many. I've got some old friends from back in the Smokies.
Adam:You know, they they've made it to twenty five, twenty seven, twenty eight years and just not quite able to get to that thirty year. And most of the time, it's it's due to some kind of either long term chronic injury, reoccurring problem, or, you know, worse, a a single event that led to their sudden retirement.
Brian:Yeah. I'm just watching these guys as you're talking here just swinging these heavy hammers
Adam:and Yeah.
Brian:Sledgehammers and chiseling. And I mean, just it's just hard work.
Adam:Yeah. It's it's hard work. Yeah. Very much. You gotta love it.
Adam:You gotta love to work hard to do it. But, you know, that's if there's anything that they take away from me, I hope that they learn that you got to sustain a pace that just not only gets you through the hour, like but it gets you through the day, gets you through the week, gets you through the season, gets you through the year, and gets you through your career. Right? And if you go as hard as you can, which I used to. I used to go as hard as I could, as as fast as I could all the time.
Adam:And, it really took a significant injury, back in 2014 for me to learn. You know, I I herniated some disc in my back and was was just really, or I don't know if they were hernia. They were they were slip disc. It was one of those two. I can't remember the terminologies.
Adam:But what I do remember is that it hurt really, really badly, and I was laid out for about four months and had all kinds of complications. And I tried to work through it for about six weeks, I remember. And I was just in so much pain every day doing trail work, carrying logs, you know, moving rocks, try trying to just to suffer through it. And, it wasn't until a a doctor set me aside and just kinda had a real heart to heart. And he's like, if you do not stop doing what you're doing and let yourself recover, you will be disabled.
Adam:You know? You are not gonna be able to do function in in the basics of life. And so I think that kind of an injury, unfortunately for me in my stubborn way, is what it took for me to realize, hey, you you can't you can't go that way all the time. You have to you know, I was only nine years into the work at that point. And so I learned after that.
Adam:You know, it's it took me that I've tried to share that experience with with folks on the crew today and with other folks and colleagues in, you know, in other national parks that, you know, sustain yourself. Make sure that you can do this work in fifteen, twenty years. You know, really make sure you're wearing more protective ear, protective, hearing protection than than you might need. You know, that way you can hear your grandkids, you know, when you're an older man. These types of things are gonna be real important to you.
Adam:And if you don't put the work in and the and the precautions now, you're gonna feel the effects of them sooner than you think.
Brian:Know? Like, you've, you've learned how to become quite a leader through your experiences.
Adam:I'd like to think so. I I I know I try. You know, I I'm probably my my worst I'm my own worst critic. I know I care a lot for this place and I care a lot for the people that do this kind of work. And so, my biggest priority is is balancing, you know, getting this work done and getting it done to a a well to a good standard, but also striking that balance and making sure that we're doing it safely and and and maintaining the risk to the extent that we can to mitigate the risk as well as we can.
Adam:So we are ensuring that we get that we get these employees, home at the end of the week.
Brian:Adam Gibson, trail supervisor for Grand Canyon National Park. It is very clear the safety of his team is his highest priority. Another reason why I think that we as the hiking community need to be understanding of whatever park management decides when it comes to the reopening of North Kaibab. It's Adam and his crew who will be doing the difficult and dangerous work, and I'm sure you will agree that they should be afforded every opportunity to do it safely. And if that means delays, so be it.
Brian:Well, just down from the Tapeats Narrows on Bright Angel is the notorious Devil's Corkscrew. When you're ascending from the river, the corkscrew is the first serious ascent about 600 vertical feet over a mile or so. Just the name is enough to create a level level of fear in first timers, and coach Arnie knows that firsthand. Here's coach on how he learned to dance with the devil.
Coach Arnie:First of all, action cures fear. Some of you may have heard of that before, but it's true. If you have action, if you do something, you will eventually overcome the fear. If you face and step into your fear through that action, you will start the process of overcoming fear. If you have a lot of preparation, if you prepare, if you train, if you plan, if you prepare the right way, that will help you to overcome your fear.
Coach Arnie:And then lastly, repetition will overwhelm your fear. You know, I have a coach or a good friend who's a coach, and he likes to use the word space repetition because as an athletic coach, that's what we use. Space repetition over and over and over. That's what practice is all about. And guess what?
Coach Arnie:It works because the more automatic something becomes, the less fearful you become because all you're focusing on is doing what you're trained to do. There's no worry there's no thought about fear. So here's my little canyon anecdotal story that happened many years ago because on my first two adventures in the canyon, we came up through on Bright Angel. And guess what? I never saw it because we went down in the dark the first time, second time on South Kaibab, and both times came up on Bright Angel In The Dark.
Coach Arnie:So I thought, man, I don't even know this trail. Never seen it before. So one Saturday, I got there very, very early before sunrise, and I started down Bright Angel and literally went up and down Bright Angel for about twelve hours. And and one of the my key goals that day was to go up and down Devil's Corkscrew because it was so scary. Right?
Coach Arnie:And I just I made that thing so small. It was crazy. It was less than a mile, about six, maybe 650 feet of climbing. It was a joke before I was done. I went up and down that thing four times, and I just went through every little piece of Bright Angel that I thought was a challenge.
Coach Arnie:Jacob's ladder, all the little pieces, how far they were, how many vertical feet they were after twelve hours. Even my wife thought I was crazy because she didn't know where the heck I was, and I was there all freaking day on that one trail, Bright Angel, until guess what? I own bright angel. It means nothing. It's just a trail with little segments that I made into little tiny pieces.
Coach Arnie:And there it is. That's overcoming fear. And it takes time. It takes repetitions. It takes action.
Coach Arnie:You can do it too. It just depends on how you wanna do it, but don't let things overwhelm you that you don't really understand. Ask questions, and then experience it, and then break it down. I promise you, it'll make a difference. As usual, if you need anything, give me a holler.
Coach Arnie:I love you guys, and I'll talk to you later.
Brian:Coach Arnie, Arnie Fonseca junior, our exercise physiologist and Canyon coach. If you have any questions for coach or need help overcoming any fears that you might have yourself, you can reach out to him anytime. His contact information is in the show notes. Hey, I do have a favor to ask. If you enjoy the show, would you please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening?
Brian:It truly helps us get in front of those who need us and helps ensure that we'll keep at this for a long time to come. So please leave us a review. It just takes a minute and we would be so so grateful. Alright. That is it for now.
Brian:My name is Brian Special encouraging you as always to go hike the canyon. You can do it. Take that first step. Embrace the journey. And when you get there, whether it's for time goals or taking your time, just hike your own hike and savor every step in the magnificent Grand Canyon.
Brian:We'll see you next time on the Grand Canyon Hiker Dude Show powered by Hikin'. Support the brand that supports this show at hikin.club. That's hikin.club.