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Who doesn't love seeing all of the amazing innovation happening in Canada's Startup world? We connect with Canada's best startups to learn about their business and the amazing people behind it. Follow along and hear some of the most interesting ideas and top elevator pitches from across Canada!
00:01.60
mike_flywheel
What's up everybody. It's Mike we're back here on the pitch please podcast and today we've got xon from leaders of today you might remember him from episodes from last year where we previously had him on for his social enterprise for the menstrutors. But today we're gonna be talking about a whole different range of topics. We're gonna be talking about. Choosing a cofounder which I know a lot of people over the last year have talked about in bits and we're going to go a lot deeper into that. We're also going to be talking about something that is often taboo which is when you are the cofounder of a startup and things don't make sense for 1 reason or another what does it mean and how do you approach parting ways. Um, and then we'll talk about what zion's up to now we're going to talk about the creator economy starting that journey. What does it entail. How do you become a thought leader in this space is that a startup I don't know but we're gonna talk about it today for everyone. That's new maybe doesn't know use dion and let's give a quick introduction and then we'll start diving into things. So.
00:55.32
Ziyaan Virji
Thank you so much. Mike Super excited to come back on and give you some updates I'm zian I am where do I start I have a lot of rules but I'm from East Africa I moved to Canada three years ago um and my initial startup journey start with my social enterprise as you mentioned and we talked about in our last episode and then this year um I ventured more into the fintech loyalty space. Um I used my experience in the social enterprise space and identified a gap in nonprofit fundraising. Um, and wanted to create like a low d program for nonprofits and so I got into an incubator here in toronto started building out on my own with a co-founder and then six weeks into the program. He um, decided to get a full time job and left and. Ah, within that week I met a competitor and after a couple of conversations. The competitor offered me a deal to join him as a co-founder. Um, we then spent seven months ah building a nonprofit fundraising platform that. Primarily focus on donor retention rates. Um by doing cash back rewards that you can decide to donate as well as prayer change roundups um that you can decide to donate your favorite cause. Ah, but seven months into doing that.
02:27.10
Ziyaan Virji
Um, my cofounder and I definitely had different alignment in terms of our long-term vision and I decided to make the tough decision to leave that sort of.
02:39.36
mike_flywheel
There's a lot to unpack there. Maybe let's break down the journey First for anyone that's new. Let's give them the quick background on that history of you know, being from Africa and this piece around the social enterprise that you started called for the menstrutors. What is like the headline on that and what kind of. Activated that because I think that'll be a really good segue into some of the other work that you're doing around social enterprises in the community and and really helping people around you right.
03:05.29
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, for sure. So when I was 15 I primarily I was required to start up a personal project back in Kenya at a boarding school I went to I could do anything on my choice and I watched this documentary on menstrual health. Um, and had a conversation. My mom about it and she told me that when she was young. She didn't have proper access to monster products. Um I did that kind of inspired me to learn more about this issue and I found out 500000000 people don't have access to products which then inspired me to start my own. Ah, social enterprise in which primarily what we did was we produce and distribute reusable menstrual products that will last for 3 years 100% biodegradable cost-effective. Um, and then would give it out to people that don't have access to this but also would teach them how to make their own. And build capacity so that they have lifelong access to this product. Um, it have been six years of that um and now we've you know, helped over 20000 people in 10 countries around the world. We have a team of 150 plus volunteers um, our work still continues and we have our amazing executive director kind of running that show. Um and this year I decided to kind of take a step back to ah, try out something new and see where my passion lies and that's where I came across this gap in the nonprofit fundraising industry. Um.
04:32.97
Ziyaan Virji
Because I had worked with all these nonprofits with my previous manager.
04:36.57
mike_flywheel
You got it and when you were working on that you were part of you know you said ah like an incubator which which one was that and you said you'd met a co-founder. But then. In that scenario. How did you get matched with that cofounder and why do you feel like that didn't work out that'll maybe prime what we're going to talk about today a little bit.
04:52.26
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, for sure. So I got into next Canada. It's a incubator here in Toronto um, and I actually did make it to my co-founder through the program even though a lot of people did um when I was looking for a technical co-founder. Um I reach out to like the smartest people I know um and one of them connected me to um, someone that was looking to build something and was technical. There were bays here in Toronto um, and they seem really interested in. You know, kind of joining and for me, um. At least at the time my approach towards finding a cofounder like I saw it as a marriage and I saw it as there any other relationship right? and I when people would tell me stuff about co-founder issues I'll just be like hey if you want to make it work and you have your foundation um values aligned. Um, everything else will kind of work out on its own right? Um, and so I didn't spend a lot of time even with him trying to understand I had never met it in person. So I was baz in Bc he was based in Toronto um, but I was like you know what.
05:59.66
mike_flywheel
Yeah, and and just to break that down so you just met him through like a connection like it was just like a warm intro through your network.
06:08.35
Ziyaan Virji
Exactly exactly Um, and I was like you know what? how about let's just build something together and then we can figure stuff out to we negotiated I think we had like a 65 35 split or something like that. Um, and and we're like let's do this and I knew that he was he was in his final year of ah university um, and so he was graduating um but he said he this something he wants to work on before he figures out like what his future plans are.
06:38.83
mike_flywheel
You got it and so through that process you guys started building and then what what happened.
06:46.27
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so we started building and six weeks into the program. He got a full time job at Rbc. Well-paid and he was an international student as well and so getting a job for him was like a priority for him to stay in the country.
07:04.62
mike_flywheel
That's fair.
07:05.56
Ziyaan Virji
Um, and so he's like hey man I Love what you're doing I'd be down to like support you um maybe a couple hours every week but I'm not gonna be able to commit as a co-founder. Um and he was very open with that and I I understood like I was I was pretty open to. That as well and and we decided to kind of just split ways. Um, yeah.
07:26.94
mike_flywheel
So basically it was He wasn't able to be a full time. Co-founder he was able to maybe offer you a couple hours a week. He could still be a co-founder. But I think this is like an interesting piece whereas like.
07:33.87
Ziyaan Virji
Cofounder.
07:39.71
mike_flywheel
There's ah, there's a moment where you either have the ability to be all in in full time and I do find a lot of that is people that are still in school or just graduating school right? because the the leap of faith is a little bit maybe easier for some to bear um or people that have been super intentional and either have.
07:53.41
Ziyaan Virji
If.
07:57.78
mike_flywheel
Saved up for it or the the pain has been so great that they need to make this change and and make that leap but I've also talked to many people that have have sort of built it on the side. Um, but it sounds like you know he's starting this new job that's going to take a lot of mental energy and so the amount of hours that he had to invest.
08:01.94
Ziyaan Virji
It.
08:17.54
mike_flywheel
And and it sounds like you're building a pretty technical product that might have been a bit of a bottleneck and so that caused you to have some open and transparent conversations. What were like some of the hardest things that you had to talk through that moment. Did you guys talk about? could you keep this going like what were some of those real dialogues and how did you handle them and.
08:35.12
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so so we definitely went back and forth and it was a bit of like ah I'd say a bit of an awkward conversation to have and a tough at least a tough one to have right? because you're like ah I think we had a phase of around 2 3 hree weeks that i. Gradually saw his time put in reduce and I was like I kind of had a feeling I wanted to have a conversation about hey like how are you feeling like we agreed on x one and z like are you able to put in the time. Um, but it was kind of like a slow burner. Um, and then eventually it it led us to have that that chat. But I think if there's anything I've learned at least from that first experience was ah just having that open conversation from the very beginning um and making sure that you're on the same page and general expectations. Um on on. What's going to happen in a situation where you know things don't go the way we expect them to because I think everything's well and good when everything's going right? But we don't talk and we hope for the best situations but everything changes when things aren't going necessarily how you expect right? And so. Having those conversations really and even maybe before committing to anything having like that test period to kind of work together and obviously when you're doing this I was even told the same thing like when you're having a co-founder. You should you know have some time to actually work with them on a project and see what you're doing advocates things of that sort. But.
10:12.20
Ziyaan Virji
It's not as easy as that right? like I had a tamp constraint I was in this incubator I had to achieve XYAndZ by the end of it and my peers that we're making so much progress like there's all these different situations. Um and dynamics and so um, it's not as easy.
10:29.40
mike_flywheel
Yeah, but but maybe on the wisdom that you've gained through that experience. Are there certain questions that you would maybe bring into any co-founder you know, matching dialogue or are there.
10:29.62
Ziyaan Virji
Easy as it say right? if that makes sense.
10:47.60
mike_flywheel
Elements of what you were saying there where you would do it even though it feels challenging to slow down to speed up I think that's like the the way it's described but you know work and collaborate on a project in order to feel out how you work together before embarking on a formal cofounder relationship. What out of this first. Um partnership would you sort of take away from.
11:11.20
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah I think in terms of questions or things to consider before you get in business with someone is I Definitely think spend some time even if it's a small project just spend some time working on a project to see what your work dynamic is like what are your strengths. What are your weaknesses. Um, spend time doing like nothing like not working on Steal. So and I think it's important seeing what people are like outside of that work environment. Um, because it does affect other stuff and then really have those deeper conversations that are more personal because. This is like ah a marriage right? like it is a very big deal and you're probably spending more time with your cofounder than anyone else in your life and so you have to know what you're like even outside of work and and and having those dynamic dynamics and. Yeah I think I think just yeah, spending more time having those deep conversations. Um and and being open and honest with the worst outcome. Let's say like what is what is the worst outcome that we can possibly have and if we're in that situation. What.
12:17.80
mike_flywheel
And.
12:24.22
Ziyaan Virji
What are our options and being open and honest to that from the very beginning um versus waiting for that to happen and seeing for yourself.
12:32.43
mike_flywheel
Got it. There's a piece here and I'm just curious your thoughts because you've gone through it. Do you think it's ah, ever worth. So you talked about the worst outcomes like what's the worst possible thing that could happen and how would we manage it? Um, but we're obviously today going to talk about you know. Quitting or choosing to leave as a co-founder and in this scenario it was ah a mutual breakup like there was an understanding of things that had to to part ways and you you related this to a marriage and so I'm curious if there's this element of like a prenup. You need to talk about which is like hey should we need to for reasons that you've maybe already laid out or discussed need to part ways. What are the paths that that can take is that hey I'm still a owner. Ah, but I have reduced time is that I'm an owner.
13:09.94
Ziyaan Virji
Ah.
13:26.53
mike_flywheel
Have no time but give up equity allow you to hire someone and I contribute. Do you think it's worth having that conversation or is that leading to the inevitable which is someone's going to look for that out and you're giving them the Escape clause I mean people probably have opinions on both sides of this but I'm curious as someone that's lived through that and having to have those dialogues right.
13:41.66
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
13:45.87
mike_flywheel
Would that upfront conversation have potentially helped. But.
13:50.73
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, 100% so when I first ah got into business with my first cofounder I think with Tim I didn't even know what a vesting agreement was and I didn't know that there was an option to even like you know there's like a buy backlas where you can buy back the shares as as a company right. Those are things I did not know ah because I was very new to the startup space and so um I wish I had done that and I think I wish um we had had that conversation from the very beginning because that expectations are very clear like hey your your equity is only going to be vested. When after a certain time or after you hit search on mileusestones. Um, and when you have that conversation. You can gauge a level of commitment from the other person. Um, and then even having that buy bag equity kind of clause around. You know if you do quid the company can buy back. Um. All the shares and things of that sort. So those are things I did not know about um or how that event worked um and and a lot of a lot of people don't like ah you be surprised. Um, and so these are things that I think like you should definitely put into place and have that pre-up conversation at the very beginning. Um, because then it puts everyone on the same page.
15:06.31
mike_flywheel
Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So um, you were going through the process of of parting ways on this venture. Ah, and then you met someone else and some things made sense because it was related talk me through that. Um, talk me through how that formalized the potential ending of of that startup that you were in the process of building and what this new venture was and and what you what path do you decided to go down there. So.
15:34.44
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so to give the audience some context this is six weeks into my program. That's four months over the summer um I had not built any tech yet. Um and I also. The way the program was built was after a certain point in time you start talking to investors. Um, you need to show x amount of progress and then there's also this weird like comparison and pressure with everyone else. That's the incubator as well. Um, and so um. We finalized that agreemented my initial cofounder and I'm on the hunt to find someone new. That's technical and that's aligned with my vision that I want to build and in this process again. Go back to the same process I reach out to all the smartest people I know um and. First I ask them if they want to join me and if if they say no that I reach out to I ask them if there's anyone that they know who's the smartest people they know that um would like to work on something and as part of that process one of my mutual connections ah say that met. Ah, competitor in the and the same space I was working in at a founder poker event and was like hey and when he met him. He texted me and he's like yo you should check out this guy. He's building exactly what you've been trying to build and it may be interesting to have a conversation with them and so.
17:03.58
Ziyaan Virji
What's funny was when he sent me his Linkedin profile I noticed that I actually reached out to this person whilst I was but doing my research never got a response but it was funny that that alignment was there and so I was like hey get his email. Um, and I'll reach out to him and we can do something and so get his email. I reach out to him send him my profile send him what I'm doing and I'm like we should meet up. Um, and so we set up a time for that Friday ah, we made downtown toronto and before I meet him I obviously do my research on the company and I noticed a couple of things I noticed that one day. Had built figured out the tech side of the of the business and there were at least eighteen months ahead of me in terms of my process on the tech side. Um I also realized that our product was catered for the gen z millennial market and no one on their team was gen z millennial. Um, they we also worked in the nonprofit fundraising industry and none of them had nonprofit background all of those things were things I thought I could bring to the table and so going into that conversation I was prepared to have a chat about me potentially working with him and helping. Them go to market. Um, because I thought that's a big value. Add I can bring but I made sure and I told myself that um, he's probably going to offer me a job and I'm not willing to work for someone I'm only doing this because I want to start my own thing and so.
18:33.56
Ziyaan Virji
Um, I'm not taking a job like if anything we work as co-founders and so we have a chat we talk for a couple hours. Great alignment in terms of the vision and what we're trying to build um, ah, tech site I definitely saw that like they figured out the tech which or something. I didn't know how to approach and I was like I didn't know what the best way was I was finding a lot of barriers and so at the end of our conversation. He was like how tied a Youtube company and like um like what do you mean and he said um. He said would be willing to join me as a cofounder I've been I've been looking for for someone that can compliment me for a while and you seem like a great fit in terms of everything you bring to the table and so I'm like I'd definitely be open to it. Um, but. Like what like what does that even mean from an equity perspective. What does that mean like how much money have you guys raised like I like what like tell me more and so ah, he shares with me a bunch of documentation. We go back and forth in terms of negotiating equity. Um, and even at that point I think for someone if I hadn't had the six weeks experience that I had that could I would have easily settled on um the initial equity that he offered me but I was very firm in terms of what I bring to the table and even though he had and but there were investors on the tap table.
20:03.51
Ziyaan Virji
He had invested his own money and I had no I had no money to Invest. Um I made sure I got enough equity for me to feel inspired to work on this right? and so those are things I think a lot of people don't tell you and I I wanted to share that um, keep in mind he was Also. Twice my age and so he was 54 I'm 22 and and it was a bit of a weird dynamic like negotiating something with someone That's like my dad's Age. Um. But I wanted to I want to make sure I do that and I stay firm and I understand the the business as a whole.
20:39.89
mike_flywheel
Can you I mean there's pieces there that you you mentioned that maybe not everyone's familiar with and I think sometimes as you're talking it actually inspired me to say maybe we need to go do a deep dive on this as part of the show. Cap tables sends over some documents like some people just like oh like what's our percentages and done the cap table who's on it. Can you just like maybe super simplify. We're not going to go do the deep dive on this today. But as someone looking to join an existing business or not. Um, maybe they're starting from scratch. What were some of the things that you at that moment were interested in understanding looking at seeing what were some of the things you were looking for and transparently this is only like your like second.
21:26.40
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
21:28.57
mike_flywheel
Real venture into this space and you probably hadn't dealt with a bunch of these and you probably had some mentors but what was like your initial look at some of these and then how has that now changed now that you've gone through it is there anything else. You've learned and we're probably gonna have to go do a deep dive on this because I think we gloss over the.
21:39.33
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
21:44.64
mike_flywheel
Formulation of a startup and cap tables and people drop these words and they assume that when you got an idea you're just supposed to know all that stuff and people make a lot of mistakes So I want to hear like your journey on this and what were some of the things you were looking through and.
21:52.50
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
21:59.90
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so at the time I was also very new to all this terminology. Um, and I didn't and I didn't even know what is it I should ask for where I was kind of in the same house space line. Oh I Just have to negotiate like equity like oh.
22:01.23
mike_flywheel
So.
22:12.62
Ziyaan Virji
We should do sixty forty and that's that's out of fifty fifty or whatever it is and that's the only thing I knew um and so what was really good was he because he had worked on previous ventures. He actually sent me a bunch of stuff himself. Um, which which helped me exactly.
22:25.32
mike_flywheel
Like proactively.
22:30.72
Ziyaan Virji
Um, which a lot of people wouldn't do right? And so um, that also gave me the trust that he's someone. Ah, that is not you know, like ah messing me over or like and not being transparent and it built that trust very quickly but he sent to me one of the cap tables so cap tables basically is just. Like an excel sheets where it kind of breaks down. Ah the overall shares of the company. Um, how much equity does everyone have if there's investors how much equity do they have um and then even the taps of shares whether it's voting non voting preferred common shares right Um. So those are things to look at and the importance of that is basically ah you're able to understand ah 1 at that stage of the company. Um, what does equity look like but also it gives you a better idea for the future for future rounds. Um, if you are a kind of a startup that's going to raise future rounds. Um, how much equity do we have to sort of play with and and give investors and things of that sort. So I think that was extremely important and that's something I learned when I was trying to understand ah the importance of a cab table. Um.
23:44.86
mike_flywheel
Is is there anything specifically that you look for in that by the way just before we move off the topic of captable is there something that's like a red flag right.
23:47.42
Ziyaan Virji
And and so.
23:55.78
Ziyaan Virji
So I think making sure you have like obviously voting and preferred shares. Um and also when you're having that conversation on cap table a vesting agreement and so a vesting agreement is basically an agreement between you and your. Ah, cofounder or whoever you're working with um everyone in the business if you're earning so let's say Mike and I are getting into business. Um I initially had a hundred percent of the business and I want to bring Mike on board mike is like hey I'll work with you if you have 50% I want 50% of the business. Um, and so before I agree to that I'm going to tell Mike hey I love that. But we have to come up with a vesting agreement in which basically we're going to put into writing that you will earn your 50% shares. Um, after 1 a period of time. So let's say you're 1 you'll earn 10% of that 50% year two twenty percent year three and so forth and then you can also create a busing agreement based on mileusestones and so you can be like hey if we are selling 10 chocolates. Um, once you hit 5 chocolates. You'll earn x amount a chocolates. X amount of about goody and 10 chocolates and so forth and so those are things that I didn't i.
25:11.74
mike_flywheel
Got it. So it's putting some gates. It's putting some gates timeline based or outcome based on the shares in the vesting. So.
25:20.25
Ziyaan Virji
Exactly and the importance of that is also in a situation where Mike for some reason has to leave the company before year one or at year two we need to make sure that we we Mike doesn't have 50% of the company and he's not even.
25:38.72
mike_flywheel
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:39.16
Ziyaan Virji
Working full time on the business. Um, and so I think that's that's something that I I kind of learned. Um and and we had that vesting agreement conversation as well and then also looking at things like your shareholders agreement um looking at just and Nda what that looks like um. Ah, your data room. So like anything you sent to an investor just looking at your financial forecast things of that sort.
26:04.48
mike_flywheel
Okay, yeah on that can you just tell me what? Ah what is a data room I've I've heard the topic I I have some overview of what that is but others may not can you just explain what a data room is.
26:16.76
Ziyaan Virji
So a data room is basically when you're raising capital. Um, it's ah Google drive or some sort of folder that you send to an investor and um, this is exactly.
26:20.46
mike_flywheel
Yep.
26:27.24
mike_flywheel
I like one drive myself but you can use a Google drive I'm just messing around it. So it's some type a shared folder with a bunch of stuff in and it's like a data room.
26:33.89
Ziyaan Virji
Ah, which a bunch of stuff and and the bunch of stuff is usually you'd put your financial forecasts um of your company. Um, you'd put maybe your financial statements from previous years um you would share.
26:42.12
mike_flywheel
Okay.
26:53.62
Ziyaan Virji
Your pitch deck. Obviously um, you share all sorts of agreements sharedholders agreement client agreements. Um, basically all the tab of information that you can give to someone to fully understand the business ins and out. Um, one thing I did not ask my cofounder when I got into business with him was um I did not ask for financial statements. Um, and I think it was or even if it did send it to me I don't remember like fully going into the roots of and understanding our. Financial situation and so the disadvantage of that was a couple months into the business I realized that ah my cofounder put in a huge chunk of money into the business. Um, and he put that money as a loan to the business and so eventually when. We did. We didn't make x much amount of revenue we first have to paying back. Ah pay back that loan and then everything else if that makes sense and so that's information. Yeah, that's information I didn't know.
27:55.86
mike_flywheel
Yeah, yeah, we're just fair. It's just about like it's a bit of like fair on his part. He made a loan in he expected to get it out but I guess these are like the things that you learn now right? Data room. Sounds daunting and scary. It's not.. It's a folder with a bunch of information that you will want to share with someone who's going to join or participate in your startup or vice versa If you're looking to join or participate as an investor or as equity partner that you want to look at um and it sounds like 1 of the things that maybe. Not calling you out, but it just you know you're learning right? So One of the things you hadn't give as much time or due diligence to which others if if they're listening should is really pay attention to um, not just the forward looking forecast. A financial statement but understanding the mechanics of what has built the company to where it is today. Are there loans or their payback periods are there. Um, you know other debts in the organization that you need to be paying attention to and we'll do a deeper dive but these are some some very good insights I think for anyone that doesn't even know where to start from.
29:02.48
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, exactly and I think a couple things to add is I would when you're in a situation like this where you're joining an existing company as a co-founder. Um I would go through the same due diligence process as an investor will go through and so um. Whether it's you know if they say they have x many clients you call their clients or set up a time to chat with them if they say they are working with Xy and z partner have a chat with those partners and it is a lot of work. But again if this is something you want to commit to. Then it's important for you to have that conversation and if the person you're working with is unwilling to share that information. Um, that in itself is a red flag. Um, because you want a relationship of trust and transparency which is extremely important.
29:51.49
mike_flywheel
Makes sense. Um, now. Obviously this is the startup where you were last and ah, you have since decided to part ways and go down and work on something else and we're gonna talk about that something else today but talk to me about that. Parting of ways. Um, you know what were some of the elements that caused you to rethink your involvement with the startup. Um and then like I guess this is going to sound hard for people but sometimes people either assume that the startup makes it or folds. And they feel bound to having to continue forward but you today are going to talk about this different path which is as a co-founder. Um, even in a business that's made traction. There is a path and and you have to talk through it to you know. Divorce or to to quit or to part ways. However, you want to frame it but there is a way to leave and so let's talk about you know what? that sort of looked like and talk through any advice you have for others. Um and it can be for a multitude of reasons right? I think you will you'll talk about some today.
30:57.14
Ziyaan Virji
Um, if.
31:05.46
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
31:07.30
mike_flywheel
Um, and they're not good or bad on anybody that they might be in some people's scenarios. It might be toxic I Don't think yours is toxic. It was just there's a ah difference in alignment going forward. Um, and your own prioritization of things in your own life that that led you to this decision. And sometimes it's about having that open and honest conversation with yourself. So Talk talk us through that a little bit zion and help us understand for others going through some similar thoughts how they could set forward the motion of of something like this.
31:39.97
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so to kind of give some context. Um before I decided to part ways six weeks before that my cofounder and I had ah had a chat around potentially pivoting um and initially I obviously signed up as. Um, and my big vision was to you know disrupt the nonprofit fundraising space. Um, and and and that's what our tech could do um but my cofounder because 1 our seal cycles were very long. Um, the nonprofits we're talking to they. They loved the idea but when it came down to putting dollars and even those that they put dollars to in time to actually help us go to market. Um, it was a very long process and we were running out of runway. Um, and so and we also had to raise more money and. So when we talk to investors investors the moment we mentioned nonprofits kind of thought it was a red flag. Um, and and they didn't think our market was big enough. But what was interesting was when we talk to investors and we talk about our the cash back side of our business. Um. They really love that idea and so whilst we were pitching when we change our pitch to just focus on that piece. The feedback was really was way better. Um, and for me I think my lesson from that was one you should never pivot your business based on.
33:11.55
Ziyaan Virji
What investors see because investors are not your customers right? And even though they're gonna put money into your business I they don't know your business the way you do right? and so whilst that was happening I kept telling myself that and so when my con. When we had a conversation with my co-founder about pivoting I was like hey we'll go 100% into this this new idea. But before we do that we need to validate if this cash back side market is ah is a good idea and and we want to invest all our time and so. Um, what was weird was both him and I kept getting completely different ah points of validation when when we would go to the market and he would get a very optimistic view in terms of validation and now was getting the opposite. And I wasn't fully bought into ah this vision of of taking of changing our complete business and it's not what I initially signed up to It's not what I was inspired to wake up to every day and so whilst we were trying to find this validation There were a couple other things that. My co-founder and I weren't necessarily aligned on and um and even in terms of our work dynamic because I was based in Bc I was based in Ontario um, again, that may have caused a lot of friction. Um, and and it was really tough to kind of like work together.
34:42.83
Ziyaan Virji
Um, and so eventually there were all these different factors. Um, and I gave a period of two weeks to fully make my decision but and I kept going back and forth on one side I was like hey it's normal to pivots in startups and like. You have to do what the market says and all these different things and I'm not a quitter and and this is that perseverance stage where all startups stock come out where they had x many dollars in their bank account but they still decide to go for it and then they made it out so I thought it it was a sign of that stage. But on the other side where it ticked off was when I had this conversation with myself around in a world where we are successful. Um in a world where we do raise money and have x many clients is this something I want to be working on.
35:34.62
mike_flywheel
And.
35:37.35
Ziyaan Virji
Um, will I be inspired to work on this and will I be 1 will I want to work with my cofounder on this and I think that's where for me, it kind of gave me clarity around that's not something I'd want to be doing. Um, it didn't align with my own personal. I guess purpose and and passion. Um, there were all these other misalignments. Um, and I was like instead of making that decision then um, I'd rather make it now. Um, and so before I quit I gave. We had ah I had an open conversation. My co-founder around where my headspaces at and I also told him that like ah in my mind I didn't internal leave given myself a deadline by end of January to make this is around November and so ah, end of January to make a decision for myself. Um. And I told him like if things don't change and and and we aren't more aligned then then I'm gonna have to make that decision but we have two months I'm gonna give my 100% and we'll see where it goes um, but that week after um. We had that conversation I still felt like that misalignment was there. Um, and that's when I had to make that tough decision and I'm like nothing's gonna necessarily chain between now and January and at the back of my head deep inside if I had to be honest with myself.
37:07.69
Ziyaan Virji
I envisioned a world where it didn't work out end of January and so I'm like instead of making that decision then I rather make it now. Um and and um, that's when I decided to to leave.
37:18.80
mike_flywheel
And it's interesting because you talked about and I think I talked to a lot of founders that have 2 2 paths that they see for themselves. There's those ah motivated by the financial outcomes. Um, which is totally fine I think it's important to be honest with yourself in these scenarios because. A lot of times. It is the financial outcome and that is a big piece and some of it is the impact outcome and the answer is always a bit of both but it's which one is most important to you right now and in in this journey. Um, not 1 person being right or wrong. Both are fine. It sounds like you're co-founder.
37:47.87
Ziyaan Virji
Um, the.
37:57.58
mike_flywheel
Had the impact of the financial outcomes that he wanted to drive so he was focused on what was going to go drive profitability in the business where we're going to get investment but you had signed on because that wasn't the most important thing to you in this current moment and you were very focused on the impact. Component first that might change and maybe six months when we talk or a year you'll be like hey I'm on the financial but you had joined for the impact in a specific area and this pivot sort of changed the dynamic of that and it led you to feel. Maybe. You need to revisit is this what you would be interested in spending your time and energy on not because it's still a good or a bad business but just the pivot changed where and what the dynamic of what you're going to be working on might look like for the years and months ahead um so it's it's really interesting now. How.
38:41.87
Ziyaan Virji
If.
38:54.73
mike_flywheel
That's tough right? It's a really I'm sure that you were making this sound like it was a very easy conversation I imagine there's a lot of awkward silence a lot of pauses frustration and happiness and sadness. How did you talk through this and do you know when you're doing this. Do you just like handing your two weeks do you have to you know help offboard. Do you have to help find another co-founder what are like some best practices and and going about this once you've made your decision. Um, what? What was the next step.
39:29.39
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, one harvest design I think I think um, just one just to go back a little bit in general what you say it in terms of you know, financial outcomes versus impact outcomes I think for me, the reason why I came to the startup world versus running my nonprofit which is. Going very well was the financial outcomes. Um I saw myself in a world where I thought the startup model offers me um the financial outcomes and increases my likelihood to make that impact which is why I did startup versus nonprofit right. Um, however I wouldn't take that over working on something that's not aligned with my personal values or or and also where I'm not personally just happy and and um, it's not something I look forward to right? and I think that is. That is what where I kind of take off that that decision and then going back to your question around what does that process look like so um, it was definitely a lot of tough conversations that two week period of time like it was very hard to get sleep like. Um, and I would stay up until 3 4 and just kind of thinking about all the possibilities and like what's going to happen. What's not goingnna happen. Um, and then eventually you know I just kind of set up a call and I was extremely transparent to it. My co-founder had that conversation with them I was like hey I have a lot of respect for what you're doing.
41:03.17
Ziyaan Virji
Um I I I think there's potential for this and we were getting a lot of good feedback from um, the conversations we were having and it felt like it was. We were just right next to that gold right? um and all we needed was kind of time but um I was like it's it's it's just not for me. Um, and I'll definitely support you in this transition phase. But I'm going to have to make this stuff decision and that's where we kind of um he he he had taken some time to think about it. Um, he offered me a deal of some sort to maybe sort of convince me to stay. Um I decided once I'd made up my mind. It was very hard to kind of go back and so um, I obviously like I rejected that offer and and. And then we both ah one we talked about like kind of next steps and ah luckily the way we had set up. There was not too much of a like ah handover process. Um, it was pretty smooth Jess it was mostly just like. Directing the conversation that was already having to him and then also just all the accounts and passwords and things of that sort. Um, and then after we figured that piece out I basically had to put it in writing and basically ah.
42:35.59
Ziyaan Virji
Come up with a letter of terminating our founder's agreement um and have a date on that and signature I sign it, he signs it um and then once all of that was done. We had one more chat and we basically just kind of talked about what is it that worked what is it that didn't work. Um.
42:54.48
mike_flywheel
That's awesome. So like almost a bit of like an exit interview to help both parties and both co-founders still leave on amicable terms and learn from this experience I Really like that that.
42:55.47
Ziyaan Virji
How is it that? yeah.
43:03.45
Ziyaan Virji
Exactly Yeah,, what's work was then work. How is it that I can be better in the future. Um, and we kind of just gave feedback to each other and what the learning lessons were for each other and um and ended kind of On. We had good closure ended on good terms. Um, which made me feel better and less saltier about the whole thing all right? So Um, and that was obviously very like mature of them and and I'm super grateful to have ended on on those mountains. Yeah.
43:24.88
mike_flywheel
That's great. Okay.
43:32.55
mike_flywheel
That's really good and I think that's probably a best practice is like this isn't you know you're not leaving most of the times. A toxic Relationship. You still want the best for both other parties. But you're not going to stay in something that just doesn't make sense for either of you. It could do more harm than good. Um, so there are scenarios and I've I've heard some of them on the podcast where a lot of it comes down to this misalignment in terms of vision and and it's not a.
43:52.75
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
44:02.29
mike_flywheel
Bad misalignment and vision. Sometimes it's hey I want the you know venture-backed Billion Dollar ipo journey and this is an amazing. Profitable business. But it's not paying me enough and if I'm going to do that I should just go work a job otherwise I need to go for the Ipo thing misalignment and vision yours was I do want it to have financial impact but it needs to be aligned to this thing that I'm trying to change in the world because that's where it started and if it pivots away from that. It still has the financial impact but I just don't know if I can be as energized and bring my full self after that pivot and you just had that honest conversation. So I love it. Um.
44:43.40
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah you you you brought up a really important point there and that reminded me to like your earlier question on what questions should you ask each other and those are the questions right? there like 1 What is Yourwaii and.
44:50.33
mike_flywheel
Yeah.
44:59.39
Ziyaan Virji
Why did both? Why are both of you doing this? What's in it for you from a selfish point of view financial impact of family passion. Whatever it may be what is that? Why for you and what's in it for you in a good outcome or a back. Um, bad outcome and then also. What does exit look like for you is it Ipo is it getting acquired. Um, do you want a bootstrap. Ah you want to go that route or do you want to go the Vc route and and go through that whole process. So I think those are the tabs of conversations and I think yc has a really good resource around. Questions do ask see a cofounders like a huge list of of questions. Um, that people should also check out. Yeah, um, but I really love that point I just want to emphasize on that.
45:43.49
mike_flywheel
That's interesting. Yeah yeah, I mean this is just through talking to other people you hear these stories and it it's obviously not 1 of scenarios. It's many people have experienced this There's like not hundreds. There's hundreds of thousands if not millions of startups and people have learnings in aggregate from all of this. So um, you've since obviously parted ways amicably um, what are you up to now I see you know, maybe just chilling but you don't seem like the kind of person that sort of jumps off the treadmill. So I'm sure there's something going on.
46:17.60
Ziyaan Virji
Okay.
46:21.36
mike_flywheel
I think we kind of queued it up at the beginning called leaders of today this one I'm not going to ask for your pitch on this I think we just casually talk about it. Um, because I don't think it needs a pitch I think it's more interesting just to understand this transition moment. They are going through um and and tell me about what is what is leaders of today.
46:28.77
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
46:41.15
Ziyaan Virji
You know when I percent so at the start of the year um one well it started off as the compassion project. Um I was always interested in you know, sharing learnings and insights and my network with with people that i've.
46:59.20
Ziyaan Virji
With people that to want and like aspire to go through the journey that I have um and people that are kind of on the same journey as I'm on. Um and I wanted to always use like you know, just answer Instagram Linkedin to always share that. And I always did it sort of casually but I wanted to kind of formalize that and be more intentional about it and so at the start of the year started off with a podcast. Um I I got like 2 brand deals. Um, and I was like what do I do with all this money. Let me invest it into a podcast which is something I always wanted to do so. Had a production team um did 16 episodes and I just interviewed young people that had done really cool things in different spaces sports a startup nonprofit arts and. Caught them on the pod and we chatted about what it's like to start something as a young person and what that journey looked like um whilst I was doing that a lot of young people like hey I'm so inspired by this episode but what next and I realized like yes I'm just. We're giving that inspiration piece but like now what do they do in that information and so I'm like okay we have to figure out a way to add more value. Um, and that's what kind of inspired me to start this newsletter and on the newsletter I was basically kind of just sharing. Um ah tools.
48:23.91
Ziyaan Virji
Frameworks resources and opportunities for people to now either start off whatever they passion out about or take it to that next level whether it's grants or conferences or pitch competitions or things of that sort and so um, we launch we started building at the start of the year um until around April um, where we had gathered a couple thousand subscribers. Um, and then I kind of left it off the side of my desk and um I was just focusing on this other venture that I was going through um and then add to around. October this year I was like hey like whilst I'm building my own venture like I still I miss that piece of like giving back and that aspirational side of me. Um and a lot of people are always you know, asking to have a chat and have a conversation how how about I bring back this newsletter. That that I was doing and so I started doing that and one of the things I was doing was I was ah I kept getting I keep getting all these opportunities on my feeds. Um and all these emails um and news that is I'm so subscribe to and I'm like I would always save them for myself on my notes. Um, but there's so many things I'm not eligible for so I just like texted to my friends are like hey this one this opportunity seems really cool and you look eligible. Um, and so I had this list but I'm like how about I shared to it my newsletter and and and my audience right? And so.
49:58.35
Ziyaan Virji
I did that and kept posting on Linkedin. Um, or sharing that list and sharing like 3 out of the 50 arbitr opportunities and asking people if they want the full list they should subscribe um and I kept doing that and those posts kept blowing up and and. I was clearly like getting so much validation that young people want these things and so um, by I think end of October we're around like 11000 ish um subscribers and then um. November to December in a span of four ish weeks. We really go massively by just doing that and we're at around 47000 subscribers on the news that are right now and so a lot happened in a very short period of time in this last.
50:41.41
mike_flywheel
Wow.
50:49.53
Ziyaan Virji
Ninety days were almost at one point five million impressions on Linkedin. Um, and all I'm doing is just adding value for free. At this point. Um, and it's a pain point that I know when I start when I 15 I definitely felt its and. Because I grew up in East Africa it was way more harder to access certain opportunities and it was you only get access to some of these if you have a great network or great social capital right? And so my goal here was trying to level the playing field and democratize access to this and in the process of. That I felt like I was sitting on something that I can eventually explore and see how I can turn it into a business.
51:32.75
mike_flywheel
That That's so cool so you started you. You know you out the side of your desk you had this like community that you'd started and you brought it back and you started nurturing it again and really you found this gap. Not. Unlike a startup so like ah you know way you're building a community but it sounds a lot like what you do in a startup which is you identified a gap where young people don't necessarily have a go to source ah for all of the ways that they can go have impact. And what opportunities exist for them to go get their Journeys started whether it be learning or startups or other things not not just startup related but a whole wide variety of resources for young people to have an impact on the world and you started bringing that information to them and best practices to them.
52:26.42
Ziyaan Virji
Um, ah.
52:26.81
mike_flywheel
Um, so tell me about this now. You've got a newsletter, you're sharing some content What kind of things you talk lightly like grants and opportunities. But what is this network or community that you're building and what are the sort of things that if someone signs up, they might expect from it and.
52:46.14
Ziyaan Virji
Yeah, so as part of the the newsletter in terms of what you can expect is um, it goes out every Tuesday primarily what we share is um, one I share personal experiences. Um from. Things that I wish I knew in the past. Um, so I'll give you an example, our upcoming newsletter. We're going to talk about how I got pr and media for my social enterprise and the talents like how I got featured on Bbc um. And I shared that experience in general. There's so many things about this like it doesn't come organically There's a whole process you have to have a media campaign. Um a ride up a press release ah build relationships with folk journalists producers um, editors. Um, pitch to them and then eventually if there's alignment in terms of your story. What's happening around the world and their own interests. They'll do a feature on you and all these things like it's it's you like most people will be like hey this guy got him into be a Bbc but like how you got there I feel like a lot of. A lot of gatekeepers that don't like to share that information and so those are stories that I share on the newsletter and then um as part of the Newsletter. We also have a list of 50 opportunities that we update every week so we add 10 to 25 new opportunities every week so you get access to that.
54:19.41
Ziyaan Virji
To that document. It's like ah it's ah it's basically a living document where we keep updating those and then we have 30 or so resources. Um, everything from fundraising to social media to pitching that people can access as well. Um, this is just what. This this needs that it looks like at this stage the long-term vision is um, leaders of today' ' sort of this umbrella business and within it. There's a whole range of things so is the content side under the content side. We're building. We're bringing back the podcast. Um, we're gonna obviously do our social media content and then the newsletter. Um, we have a community side within that community. Um, we are one with this year I tested out with a lot of like ah. Um, meetups of people that are at the same stage and the same vertical so in Vancouver um, where we're going to be doing once a month and by at only um, 10 to 15 people that come to the same place other they're at the same stage of their startup and. You talk about everything but your startup and it's a free space for you to just hang out. Um, so there's that like meetups section. We have a larger community piece that's open to everyone.
55:42.47
Ziyaan Virji
Um, and we're still trying to figure that out whether it's like a slack or discord channel or Whatsapp Channel Broadcast on Instagram and then lastly we have um in-person events right? and so we're talking a hundred people get sponsors get speakers do panels things of that sort. Um, and then we have we have a consulting side so in that consulting wing. We're basically gonna so we've had as part of this process. We had a couple organizations reach out to us and basically ask us how we are you know, engaging with young people and we have a lot of data on these young people. Um, and so we're going to consult other youth organization education companies schools how they can engage that population. Um, and then lastly we also want to figure out ways to monetize this opportunity list that we have and charge ah either be b 2 b. Um, charge these organizations to serve their youth and then b two c side maybe have like a freemium sort of model where you know you get free fiftyifty opportunities. But if you own 5000 opportunities. We charge you a couple dollars a month to access this and it's customized for you. So.
56:56.73
mike_flywheel
Yeah.
56:57.86
Ziyaan Virji
There's a lot of moving parts. But that's kind of the long-term vision. Um, and I am running this as a startup as a business. Um.
57:03.84
mike_flywheel
Well totally like as you're talking through it I'm like these are all parts right? You've got an arm that is about creating demand and another arm that is about acquiring customers. You've got B Two B and B Two C components but they're all connected at the heart.
57:13.17
Ziyaan Virji
And the top of funnel. Yeah.
57:21.80
mike_flywheel
Around this idea of helping connect all of the resources with all of the people that need them in a young space of amplifying their impact. Um, but as you talk through it. You basically are talking about like a business ah called leaders of today.
57:28.79
Ziyaan Virji
Exactly.
57:37.51
mike_flywheel
It's not actually like just the creator economy because that's usually you're in a creator economy getting paid for your content but you're actually not just putting in content out. That's one pillar of multiple pillars that you've talked about here about bringing these pieces together more thoughtfully and.
57:51.39
Ziyaan Virji
Exactly and what's for me what I'm super passionate about it. It's connected all the experiences I've had in my life and since I started when I was 15 there's the nonprofit social impact side. There's the business side that I'm super passionate about building. Businesses that can make real money and then there's a side that loves you know, speaking storytelling creating content and that side and um, so so those are it's just it's just kind of connecting all into 1 and obviously with all these arms that I mentioned we're not going to target. Do everything like once I'm a one man I say we. But um, it's just me right now. Um, we we have a plan in terms of rolling that out over time and then also targeting individual verticals and so we are starting with a youth sort of sort of impact space. Right now but eventually there's there's other verticals that we think young people are engaging as well and so we have you know there's a whole internship side of business where a lot of our young people like hey we want internships we want jobs. There's that vertical we want to target as um, the. Startup world as you probably know and that vertical and there's a couple other verticals. We're looking at and also segmenting but a demographic and so right now our audience is global. Um, we have primarily North America and India and Asia but specifically India is are a big.
59:28.17
Ziyaan Virji
Thing. But ah when we're going through this process. We want to start with 1 demographic and then eventually capture the demographic and build out and so running it exactly like a business would um instead of you know, thinking of it as like a creator as.
59:44.32
mike_flywheel
So I love it? Well it sounds like there might even be some future opportunities to coab as I help lift up Canadian startups and that sounds like a portion of where we'll maybe find some some mutual ground of amplifying Canadian innovators together.
59:44.37
Ziyaan Virji
Or like an influencer with quote on code.
59:59.40
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
01:00:01.46
mike_flywheel
Um, if people want to find out more. Obviously it sounds like they can join this community right away where should people be going z on to to join leaders of today. So.
01:00:09.43
Ziyaan Virji
So you can simply I'll share the link with you for people to subscribe in the description. Um, but you can find you can just add to Zan Verji everywhere and add leaders of today pod. Um on all socials. Ah, we are figuring out our branding. Piece right now and trying to figure out. Um, how to kind of streamline everything because everything's just happened so quickly and so um, but yeah, I'll share all the links and you can you can check it on the description.
01:00:34.70
mike_flywheel
Yeah, yeah. No, that's cool and this is like a really hot off the press like by the time this pod gets released probably there'll be material leaps and gains and in the next couple of weeks. But you know I wanted to hear your story we we obviously want to talk a little bit about leaders of today. But I think this like. Finding the right co-founder um parting ways as a co-founder with the startup that you're a part of I think there's so much there that is like taboo to often talk about I think people need to hear it because they need to understand that that isn't an element and then it's cool to hear how you're creating a community and content. But you're you're. You're treating it as a business based on all your past experiences and I'm really really excited to watch that journey and and see obviously I'm about lifting up canadian startups impacting the world. You're about just more broadly globally leaders of today. Which are young people helping have an impact not just startups but anything they're doing I think there's some cool ways that we can help uplift this community together zion we've had a lot of really cool dialogue today before we kind of close out. Is there any final tips or advice that you want to share.
01:01:51.95
mike_flywheel
Um, maybe even some free things that you'd have to subscribe for in the newsletter but any guidance as we sort of part part part off for today for anybody listening to the podcast. So.
01:01:56.62
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
01:02:02.53
Ziyaan Virji
I think in terms of my head space 1 especially for young people that are listening I think a great advice that I got from one of the folks at ah next was at this stage of your life. Your measure of success or your Kpi of success should be. Maximizing your learning and the reason why it's been so quote unquote easy for me to make these bold decisions has been really just measuring every decision I'm making on that maximizing of learning um sort of approach and. I don't have regrets spending seven months into the startup ah taking $0 out of it and ah you know going through that whole experience because I learned so much and I wouldn't have learned it at any university course at any in other context, right.
01:02:56.59
mike_flywheel
But yeah, it's a different vector of learning right.
01:02:59.50
Ziyaan Virji
Um, this kind of stuff you have to exactly you have to do it to learn and I'm so grateful for that experience. So right now, especially at this stage of my life That's my only kp ah of success. How am I maximizing learning and what am I putting myself in positions to maximize that. Um. So that's one too I think not being you know afraid to make bold decisions and trusting your gut. Um, whilst you're doing that. But and then a last kind of I guess ah thing to think about is. Least what myself is on 1 hand yes rush like go for it. You know, trust your instinct and don't overthink certain decisions but to also make sure you spend time doing your due diligence. Um doing that quote unote dirty work. Um, to make sure that you're you're making the best decision possible and you're collecting all the data that you can possibly collect if that makes sense.
01:04:02.30
mike_flywheel
You yeah, totally improving or improving yourself. Um zion. Thank you for helping dive into some raw unscripted topic today. We just had a real conversation on a whole bunch of things I think this is really cool because it's part of where I want to take. Pitcht fleas podcast and in 2024 which is continuing to have amazing founder stories and talking to canadian startups but now starting to unpack some of the topics that I've heard so many themes around over the last year um that I think are real things that people want to hear about that are starting a startup in a startup. Reflecting on should they leave their business or company for a startup and I think having these topics and just hearing perspectives. They're not right or wrong answers but hearing how others have gone through It are really helpful for the community. So thank you for for being one of the first to help tackle some of these new wider spanning topics. Looking forward to seeing leaders of today grow and looking forward to what those collaborations might look like even for us. Thanks again, Zion and and everyone that listened in I hope this was a super educational informative topic.
01:05:01.36
Ziyaan Virji
Um, yeah.
01:05:06.92
mike_flywheel
Ah, for you today and make sure to go check out leaders of today and and sign up if you're a young leader of today. So.
01:05:14.30
Ziyaan Virji
Um, awesome. Thank you so much I appreciate being on here.