Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In Search of Catholic School Excellence
Exploring the programs, people, and practices making a difference in Catholic education. Join host Thomas Boles as we hear from principals, teachers, and innovators shaping the future of Catholic schools. Whether you're a leader looking for ideas or an advocate for Catholic education, this show is your guide to what’s working—and why it matters.
Be sure to check out the show notes, as each episode comes with a companion guide to help you implement the ideas discussed during the episodes.
Transcription is generated automatically. Please excuse errors.
Welcome back, folks, to another one of our summer series episodes, Let's Talk Books. Today we're joined by Robert Begley, strategic communication advisor, speaker, and author of Voices of Reason: Lessons for Liberty's Leaders. Robert helps executives, entrepreneurs, and emerging leaders align their voice with their character so they earn trust, inspire confidence, and create lasting impact.
In today's conversation, we'll explore how the lessons from Voices of Reason can help middle school, high school, and college students become more courageous, ethical, and effective communicators. Thank you, Robert, for joining us. I appreciate you jumping on. Thank you, Tom. I think your podcast is amazing. I think dealing with schools, education is the biggest problem in the United States.
For some time it has been. So the work you're doing just on this podcast, and I know what you do in your profession, dealing with schools and how to improve them is really important. So that makes me super grateful to be here. Well, I'm glad you said that. It's funny I'm reading a book right now called Teaching Machines about the history of basically s- tech in education.
And they're talking- Mm-hmm ... about the problems of 100 years ago, and they're the same. Yes. Nothing's changed. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, things have changed, but nothing's changed, right? We have solved the same problem. Yeah. So anyway, I appreciate that, those kind words, and once again for joining us.
This is great. It's a rarity that we actually get the author on with us, so I appreciate you joining. To get started, how about we, why did you wanna write this book? I- y- we've known each other for a while and- Yes ... i've even attended some of your courses on how to build clarity and confidence in my speaking.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I know the value of all that. But why did you convert a lot of that knowledge into a book? I think the main reason is fear of public speaking. It's known that most people, a high percentage of people, have this fear. I experienced it when I went to Catholic school way back in the 1900 In New York City, and I had to get up in front of a group and speak, and I was terrified.
So I saw that as a need to address that. How did I overcome that myself? And then on top of that is the importance of having the courage to say things that people might not agree with. If I go back again to Sacred Heart in the Bronx, which is where I first heard Patrick Henry's Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death, and I saw on a, a bulletin board Lincoln's Gettysburg Address.
These things had big impacts on me. Mm-hmm. And so I wanted to analyze these famous speeches and show how people today could learn from these courageous people from the past. Yeah and you not only take the just taking those ideas and regurgitating them, but, like, you've broken them down- Yes
and I love that it, a- and like a great teacher you break down and you kind of give us a, a little glimpse as to what is, what's happening in the speech, and you give us some applications and exercises for us to work on- Yeah ... so that we can take advantage of the same thing, and I think that's, one of the main reasons why I wanted to bring you on is this, not only is it a great book, but I think it's a great book for education.
Well, thank you, Tom. Y- yes, we can read as many books as we want, but if we wanna ride a bicycle, reading a book is not gonna help. You have to actually get on the thing, fall off it- ... get up, bruise your knees, and practice over and over again. So yes, I aim to make this book by having some exercises for the reader.
And if I could just emphasize the importance of thinking. Mm-hmm. One reason people fear speaking is they're not there, they don't really know how to think. And so public embarrassment is such it reaches such a height in people's psyche because they get flustered because they don't know how to think, and that's, again, a proper education would teach you, instead of telling you what to think, it would teach you how to think.
And I wanted to bring that to light as well. So respect the reader by saying, "Hey, do some of these exercises and in your own mind- Mm-hmm ... you'll get, gain greater awareness of your own limitations and how you can grow." Yeah. And I love the fact that you're, re-emphasizing the idea that this, you gotta practice this.
Obviously, a, a s- somebody who's gonna get up in front of a, a boardroom or a classroom, and they're gonna do their thing, m- most of the time that's gonna be a pretty f- like, it's gonna feel like a very big presentation, and they're gonna have a lot of anxiety potentially. But if they know the topic and this is why, in schools you typically start off with an about me project where the kids can just talk about themselves.
Like- Yeah ... if they can't talk about themselves, then who are they gonna talk about, yes. So but you give them the opportunity to get up there and hopefully be able to speak confidently about a topic. But it really just comes down to a lot of practice, and throughout the book you're emphasizing the need to, play with your own stories, but also, like, practice these speeches.
Read them aloud. Does it sound right? Record it. What does it sound like? I think all of those practice tips that you give us are, is just a great reminder, and and I think the more we can do that in schools the better. Historically, the, the... My old school, we used to have, and it was not my program, but I participated fully in it, was the teacher our sixth grade teacher was our language arts guy.
We were promoting public speaking in every possible situation, mm-hmm. And so we had math class we're giving presentations. You're giving, having students stand up in front of the class to talk about anything, their opinions, whatever it was. So you have a lot of these informal moments that create the ease when it gets to those formal moments.
Mm-hmm ... tell me a little bit more about some of these practice things that, that you think are valuable. Yes. So the most, that's all, everything you said, Tom I think is really important because let me first distinguish two terms which you brought up. Public speaking, which is en- envisions this gigantic s- fear, most people don't do that.
Mm-hmm. That kind of visualizes like a a, somebody in a big stadium getting up- Mm-hmm ... and riling up, the Tony Robbins type. But presentation skills is what people do every day. Right. Getting up in front of a small group or a classroom, say, in middle school or high school, and again, there's fear because your peers are there.
You might not know the material so well. But like you were saying earlier, is that what did I do my summer vacation? Like, that used to be the first, right, the first exercise. Right. Get up and tell the, So mastery of the subject is a major factor in reducing one's fear. Mm-hmm. 'Cause once you know what you're talking about, now it's a matter of techniques.
Can you tell a compelling story that people will remember? Can you integrate dialogue so that the audience feels like they were there with you? Mm-hmm. And so if I go back to some of these historical speeches, there are these compelling stories. Again, if we just stay, everyone knows Martin Luther King Jr.'s I Have a Dream, they could...
Y- you feel the sweat, Mm-hmm ... of this hot day in Washington, DC, with all these people gathered, and again, we might not be on that level of a platform, but our words can have that kind of impact for the people around us, and that comes, again, from the ability to take time use your own mind, and then I often say, Tom, practice with a peer.
Mm-hmm. Practice with someone who's kind of your level, and like role reversal. Mm-hmm. They give you feedback, you give them feedback, and see what lands and what goes over your head because it's oftentimes we know what we want to say, but it doesn't p- because we have what's called, I mentioned this, the curse of knowledge- from the book Made to Stick. It's like we know what we want to say, and you mentioned math, g- getting up. Right. But somebody, right, someone who doesn't know math is like, "I have no idea what you just said. I'm lost," and so the next 12 things you'll say, they're trying to catch up. So, so by practing th- practicing this out loud to somebody can become very helpful to just see what is landing and what needs a little bit more work.
Yeah, and I think it's important too you're talking about, situations that are even more informal, right? I think a lot of folks might say, "Well, I don't have to give these big speeches, so how does this even apply?" But it's even just like in the conversations and, I'm speaking for the folks that we work with are generally school principals, right?
And- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... they p- they are speaking constantly. They're talking, sending messages to people constantly. And having that, the clarity of, of content is usually not the issue. But, still making sure those words come out right is, Yes ... is of most importance because they're constantly being judged and, especially if it's in print, it's gonna be a big, a permanent that somebody can, throw that back at them.
So it's- Mm-hmm ... it's a lot of these informal conversations or these informal situations where those skills are being tested anyway. Mm-hmm ... so, realizing that like, "Hey, this is still something I need to do if even if I'm not giving the speech," or, getting up in front of a crowd very often, it's- Mm-hmm
it's still important to have all these things. And I think even more so, it always bums me out when you have the leader of an organization, whether that be a school or a business or whatever, and they're like, they're deflecting before they even get up there. Or like, "Oh, I'm terrible at this," or, "I can't do that."
I'm like, that's not a good projection for, everybody who's watching, right? You're the leader. Yeah. Yes. So being able to get up and talk about whatever it is and being confident in that and being, having conviction and being able to s- sell that conviction like, "Hey, this is what we're about."
Mm-hmm. That I think is so valuable. And the- these little practicing things I think are wonderful to do, especially- Mm-hmm ... if you don't have to do them with your own faculty, right? Maybe you go and have another peer or somebody who's outside of education- Yes ... and whatever it might be. Yes. Yeah. If I could add to that Tom I attend a lot of events here, like networking events, professional business luncheons in Orlando where I live, and there's a president of a bank.
I've seen him speak twice in person. Both times his bank f- like kind of financed, they were one of the major sponsors for the event. Both times he didn't present himself, he only introduced the speaker. And you might not be able to see this visually, but he gets up and all I see is the top of his head because he's reading-
word for word what's happening. And my thought is, "This man is a CEO of a big bank." Mm-hmm. "He should walk, he should command." So that's one of my goals is to make sure the person's voice matches what I call their character or their position in life, and they should have this commanding presence when they open their mouth in their s- in their body language- Mm-hmm
in their eye contact, in their gestures. And if I could transition here- Sure ... to a main point of the book. If we go to Aristotle, who is the... He is the... His rhetoric is what is the philosophic basis of the book where he has his rules of persuasion, ethos, logos, pathos, and the ethos is the character, the moral character of the speaker.
So we can give tips on how to get better, but there's also some questions a speaker can ask themselves. "Why should anyone trust me?" Right. "What evidence supports my claim? Am I treating my opponents fairly? Am I communicating to understand or to merely win?" Like, what does this do for my audience? You know me, I'm very you-focused, what I call it.
Mm-hmm. So just a, a simple example. Speaker gets up. You tell me how this sounds to your ear. Speaker gets up, and first thing out of his mouth is, "Today I'm gonna show you A, B, and C." Okay. How about same speaker comes up and he says, "Today you will discover A, B, and C"? Mm-hmm. The... Or right now the, for the second one we're leaning in 'cause he's saying what you will get in the audience.
Mm-hmm. We as audience members, we don't go to attend speeches to see this great speaker. We go there in order to learn how we can benefit. So principals, if we go to school principals, they have this position of power, but they need to persuade their audience of the value of those ideas that they are promoting.
And I think a good education in communication, 'cause the
other really important thing you brought up, Tom, is written and spoken words. Mm-hmm. There's a difference there. The written word is permanent. Mm-hmm. It is... It's something you can go back to over and over again, and there's certainly a value in that, but there's an immediacy with the spoken word. It's like- Mm-hmm
and you tend to want someone to take an action now. You wanna fire them up. If, and this is an example, if Patrick Henry wrote out his speech in calligraphy and handed it to 40 people in St. John's Church, do you think we'd have the revolution? No, he had to stand up there and use his body and, "Give me liberty or give me death," so there's a big difference between the written and spoken word for communication purposes. Oh, yeah And I'm glad you brought up your- the format here because you talk about the ethos, but then you break down, you know- Yes ... all these great speeches in those three, Yes ... those- Pillars of persuasion I call them, yeah.
Mm-hmm ... there you go. Pillars of persuasion, yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Ethos, logos, and pathos. Yes. And I think it's interesting from that perspective, right? So it's not only like, "Hey, this is a great speech because he was doing this," or, "She was doing this." It's a great speech because they l- how did they attach, attack these elements?
Yes. And I think that's a really super valuable part of this book because it's not, and once again, it's not just looking at, "Oh, this was a great speech. This is what I got from it." It's like let's break it down. Like, what is actually happening here?" Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so cool to, to dive deeper into those speeches themselves.
Yeah. Most history books- Yeah ... are gonna have like a paragraph about this thing, right? Yeah. And- Yeah, exactly. Yeah ... and- If I could d- just- Yeah, go for it ... f- with what you said, and particularly for your audience, 'cause here's where I wanna praise the the work you're doing and the audience you're doing.
So I talked about moral character. Sure. And this is something that in schools, in Catholic schools, this was instilled in me, okay? Mm-hmm. Like, really be good. Be a good person. Be trustworthy. Uphold certain virtues in life. So again, that's the first one. That's the ethos. Mm-hmm. Then the second part, the logos, I wanna unpack that a little bit, is- Sure
have a structure. Have, if a... Give evidence to support your claims. So don't just say randomly what's off the top of your head and then say, "Trust me because I know it, and you don't." No, that's not persuasive. That's forcing someone to follow without really grasping. So have a logical structure, which is the logos.
And then the pathos is the part where, again, what I s- mentioned with you focus, having paying attention to the audience, 'cause the audience comes in with their own context, their own sets of biases. Mm-hmm. Their... And we as a good presenter, we need to recognize that, and we need to guide them along from where they were when they c- walked into the event- Mm-hmm
to where we'd like them to be when they go out. Now, is this manipulation? Some have, if we look at some of the great, we would say great dictators who were very pa- pathos-oriented if we go to history. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Adolf Hitler, in my book I mention Hitler, and Vladimir Lenin. S- incredibly emotional, totally getting their audience all fired up.
That's an effective speaker, but there's no moral character there. Mm-hmm. Like, it is only blind emotion, and it whips up this frenzy w- who are not open to reason. So, Aristotle would reject that. And sadly, I mean, in the book I show the contrast is Winston Churchill, who was that same era, and he came in with his, "We shall never surrender," "We shall fight them on the beaches."
Mm-hmm. He was the voice of reason compared to these dictators who were these rabble-rousers. So I think it's even important historically to know that public speaking is a powerful... You have a powerful platform. You can in- influence a lot of people for good or, sadly, for evil. Yeah. Yeah. No it's definitely...
You can definitely see that there's, There's such a we have such a plethora of folks who are speaking from purely pathos only, right? There's- Yeah ... there's, I mean- Yeah ... online you can see people just, yelling at each other- Oh, yeah ... constantly, right? Yes. Yes. But more so when they're, when you're referencing these great leaders or, I shouldn't say great leaders, but, Important.
They were important ... im- important figures of history. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They obviously had the ability to give great speeches. There's no way that they would have able to achieve what they were able to do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if you have that moral standard behind it, then you can use that power for good.
Yes. And I think we recognize that in our organizations or in our classrooms- Mm-hmm ... whatever. We see the, who- kids who are leaders, and it's like, okay, well, you've got this skill. You might have a slight advantage on this skill, so let's make sure we get- Mm-hmm ... that other side of it.
And if we develop- Yeah ... those pieces, then- Mm-hmm ... there's no reason why every kid, every person in our organization couldn't have those skills. Yes. Yes. And actually, let's a- also, Tom, just talk about the practical advantages for students. E- eventually they'll go on job interviews. Mm-hmm. Knowing how to hold yourself, how to compose yourself, how to quickly respond to questions, good presentation skills will help you with that.
E- leadership, you get a job, now you want to advance. You n- you're in a different role where two weeks ago you were with someone and you were peers, but you're more advanced. You take your communication skills more seriously- Mm-hmm ... and you're promoted. Now the relationship is different. So students running, like, a school newspaper or something like that, or debate- Mm-hmm
teams. There's formal structures there. So there are ample opportunities for students to see the value here. And if we could talk about shy people, introverts. Because oftentimes we think, "Oh, I can never do that. I'm too shy." Mm-hmm. "I'm too introverted." And what I al- that's what Carrie Ann, my dearest is, college professor 25 years, but through some training she realized that it's really important what the audience needs to hear.
Mm-hmm. I often say it's w- we know what we wanna say, but it's more important what they need to hear than what you wanna say. Mm-hmm. And the more you make that emphasis on what the audience can benefit the less stress you have on yourself. And introverted people can be just as effective. Steve Jobs, it's a famous, at Stanford, not far from you- Mm-hmm
that his famous commencement speech, I think 2005 to students- It's like that is one of the top speeches, not a rabble-rousing speech, but by someone who we can definitely say is an introvert. He was not the outgoing type of some of these other, like, like an Elon Musk, for example, as a contrast here.
But the other side, if I... I'll just say this and let you jump in. When people say, "Oh, I don't fear speaking. I love getting up in front of an audience. I'm a ham, you know, and I am a little bit..." And then my answer to them is, "That's great, but do you know when to shut up?" Yeah. Because being concise is really important, whereas people will tune out if you just keep going on and on.
My mother would say, "Oh, he loves hearing the sound of his own voice, and, ... he's listening with his mouth," as an example. 'Cause when you're having a conversation and all you're waiting for them to do is shut up so that you can say what you want- Right ... this is not effective communication. So there is definitely some as I say, there's a more effective and a less effective way to communicate, and I'm all about the more effective way.
Yeah, for sure. I think both groups, both kinds of pe- people can work their way towards that center, right? Yes. You can get a shier person to talk. I spend a lot of time talking. I spend a whole lot of time not talking 'cause, I'm much more of an introvert to start off, but my job pushes me to be an extrovert, sometimes.
Yes. But then you have those hams that, they've also gotta recognize that they... how can I be more concise, or how can I pick my moments, right? Yeah. And, But you also said, you also hit on something, listening skills. If we look at like, say, middle schoolers, the more listening skills you can develop, that's part of effective communication- Mm-hmm
which is respectfully, like, disagreeing with someone and giving them their turn, and then saying, "Okay, I never thought of that." How about this, though, as an alternative? This is where I was going. Again, this is the kind of discourse we wanna have in the- Oh, yeah ... which we don't have enough of it in the culture.
But if, as I started at the top, if we fix the education system, everything from there will go, we can fix so many other problems. Oh, yeah. And, yeah and kids don't start out, putting each other down in terms of what they think, in kindergarten, they're just, they're almost just happy to be there
Yes. That's right. And, That's right ... and I think at some point we, you build up your opinions, or you build up your fears or whatever it might be that allows you to say or not say what you want to say that then dictates how conversation goes. But if we can get them to talk a little bit more together and to be able to have- Mm-hmm
the conversation, I mean, actually listen and respond to what the person said, is such a huge thing. I think it- Yeah ... sticks out when, adult talks to a kid and they're like, "Wow, that kid can hold a conversation with an adult. That's pretty amazing." Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And vice versa. You see the adult who can't hold the conversation
Right. Right. So valuable. Right. We often will try to push kids or, and teachers to assign and receive 90-second, responses to things. Especially- ... if they can do it in audio, 'cause it's nice and short. So- Yes ... in 90 seconds or less, can you get out what you need to say and cut out all the fluff but still make your point?
And I think- ... I often think of, like, when we think about books, you've got like, J.R.R. Tolkien, who wrote, I don't know, a billion pages, right? For the whole Lord of the Rings series. And then- Mm-hmm ... you have somebody like Seth Godin. Obviously different they're achieving different things with their writing.
Mm-hmm. But Seth Godin's like power packed. Yes ... very short books. Mm-hmm ... but every word has been thought about and crafted. Yeah. So- Yeah ... learning how to be that person in the middle- Mm-hmm ... in conversation or writing and everything else I think is super valuable, and just what you always say, it's clarity and confidence.
If you've got those two things, then why wouldn't you participate in that conversation? Or why wouldn't you throw your hat in the ring when it comes time to, to- Mm-hmm ... stand up for something, I th- thank you, 'cause that last sentence you said was something, if I could emphasize, if there's like a takeaway here, I'll just ask audi- the adults in the audience, and e- even students, has there ever been a time in your life where you heard something you, and you wanted to speak up and you didn't?
And how did you feel afterwards? And my book is about- Enabling you to speak up. Because if you develop your character, if you work on your logical arguments, your logical reasoning, and your emotional connection, even in disagreeing with the person you will have that courage to get up. Again, if we talk about the, the figures who I cover, two of them lost their lives.
Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King Jr. were courageous speakers, but they lost their lives for that. I don't advocate people ... losing their lives for getting up, but develop that muscle of saying, "I disagree," or, "I think there's another way to this." And what it does it boosts your own image of yourself, again strengthens your own moral character, and it undercuts the bully type who feels- like they can just get up and dictate, whether they're in the seventh grade or whether they are college graduates or in a professional, or even a principal. Hopefully principals are principled enough ... that doesn't fall, that doesn't that doesn't come up for them. But certainly they've, they meet people, and you can tell those types.
Mm-hmm. So my, if I could just say having the courage to speak up when no one else is history re- history remembers those who spoke up when it mattered most. And we have that opportunity ourselves. Oh, that's such a good line. Yeah. So true. I'm not sure I, that I w- I even wanna follow that.
But I think the... We always talk about in our little education talks, what is the purpose of... What are we after here with education? It's like, are we preparing them for jobs? On some level, sure, we're preparing the jobs. But the more we boil it down, you ask all the whys.
Why? And we come down to this fact that we really want students to become More truly themselves, right? To reach their potential, whatever that is, and to become the person- Yes ... that, in the Catholic world that we would say is that God m- made them to be, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So to fully realize that person, they need to come a long way in terms of being able to think correctly, and then to be able to articulate those thoughts, feel confident that they can stand up for what matters to them, right?
So being able to advocate for themselves and others who can't advocate for themselves. I think that's ... I can't find any other way to fully describe what we're trying to do. Of course, they're gonna learn math, and they're gonna learn science along the way. Yeah. They're gonna learn lots of things along the way, but ultimately, that's what we're after.
We want great people in society. We want- Yep ... awesome people making cool things, and not being jerks about it, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You should be able to invent the greatest thing in the world and not have to hurt anybody along the way. Yeah. Yeah. So- If I could add to that, Tom- Yeah ... and this will be my la- my last thing, is to, in order to do that, you need to make choices.
Mm-hmm. Every single step of the way, you have a choice. Good or bad, right or, right or wrong. Again, I'll come back to the character part. Working on my character. Is this good for my character? 'Cause if we take care of ourselves, then the rest of the people, it's the ... It's kind of like the the airplane mode.
Put the mask on your fir- on yourself first so that you can take care of the child. Right. And here, if we build our own moral character so we can function as adults in the outside world, it'll make things a lot better. Yeah. And that's a choice. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh, so good. So good. I'm gonna have to pull these two lines out and just highlight them.
As we get close to the end here, is there those, those two questions I ask is, first off- Yeah ... is there anything else that you want to make sure that the readers or, obviously listeners now, but then readers of the book are gonna get? Most important thing, and then number two, if somebody's hearing this and going, "Yes you're speaking my language.
I wanna do ... I wanna become a better speaker," what's that first easy step? And maybe, for a principal out there, their first step might be thinking, "How do I incorporate this more?" But what would you say to those two things? Sure. Well, number one, you could follow me. I write regularly.
I have a lot of free material out there, like a Substack post what I call rhetoric tips. Mm-hmm. I'm up to like number 55. Once a week I'll send out something that's just a simple tip how you could better communicate- Mm-hmm ... improve yourself as a communicator. So that's a simple, like low resistance entry point.
Mm-hmm. But because this is something I love doing, great products, great ideas poorly delivered, they tug at my heart. It's like, "No, I wanna help." Yeah. "I wanna help these people. They can go so much farther." And that's where a good coach or advisor comes in- ... because sometimes we think we're good enough.
Mm-hmm. But if we're looking, I often say Tom Brady didn't, Michael Jordan had coaches. They were world-class athletes, but not only a head coach, they had personal trainers, they had nutrition coaches. And so I recommend getting coached, having some, an objective expert to help you. Certainly read the book.
It's a, the lowest hanging fruit that I could say. But I have a lot of different materials out there that can help people in their journey. Speakingwithpurpose.llc is the website if if you could, wanna track me down. And be more aware of what you consider a good speaker and a, and not so good a speaker.
Mm-hmm. You mentioned the 90 seconds earlier. I think- Audiences are judging a speaker from the moment their name is announced, the way they walk to the lectern, the first words out of their mouths. Okay? We want to, what I say, open with a bang. When a speaker just gets up there and says, "Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here," audience is already zoning out.
And the problem with short attention spans and distractions such as smartphones, is we need to keep them engaged the whole time, and that's by asking questions, by getting engagement between the speaker and the audience. I often say that this can be a takeaway. An effective presentation is a dialogue, not a monologue.
And that's what we're doing here, Tom. Yep. We're having a dialogue. It's not a monologue. So yeah, that's something that I could close out with. Oh, that's great. That's great. So yeah speakingwithpurpose.llc, that's the website. Yes. Mm-hmm. The book is Voices of Reason: Lessons from Liberty's Leaders.
Yeah. Available on Amazon. Yep. And any- anybody out there who wants a copy of this, I'd be happy to make it available to you. So... yes, I will as well. Yes. And for schools, I think this can work in schools as a guide. If, actually, if I could just say this last thing, Tom. Sure. Burundi, Central Africa, English is their third language.
There's a group there of student leaders. We went through all 11 chapters of the book, chapter by chapter, with some of the written exercises, kind of like as a school program. That's something I'd love to do in the United States is take on a group of ambitious communicators who want to advance.
And yeah, so that's something that schools can certainly incorporate. Yeah. Well, let- let's, that's a challenge to our listeners. Anybody out there who wants to accept the challenge from Robert, Yes ... happy to help you out with that. Absolutely. I'll send you the books myself. Well, thank you, Robert, for joining us today and for sharing the book, sharing your thoughts.
It's always a pleasure. And you know- Likewise ... I love the way that you you're pushing the ideals forward. It's not just about a skill, but it's, there's a purpose behind it. Yes. Absolutely. All right. Well, we'll see you next time. Thank you.