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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: Mike Rogers, good afternoon. It's a pleasure to see you today. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Some Future Day.
Mike Rogers: Marc, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this.
Marc Beckman: absolutely. So, Mike, I dug into your background and I understand that you were, born in Brighton, Michigan and that your father was a shop teacher and a coach and your mother was leading the local chamber of commerce, which is obviously super important because as you Agree, I'm sure, the small businesses of America are the engine that powers the American economy forward.
Um, but before we get into all of that, I want to talk to you about family, and your family, and I want to share A quote that Pope John XXIII gave that's really interesting and get your, get your feelings about, let's say, American families in general. Pope John said, The family is the first essential cell of [00:01:00] human society.
The family is the first essential cell of human society. So I'm curious, when you hear those words, how does that impact you?
Mike Rogers: Well, I mean, it certainly, I think, uh, is the way I was brought up. You know, I'm the youngest of five boys. Uh, and we all had kind of different interests in life, but, uh, we are very, very close. And what was interesting is we, you know, in the beginning, the stress of having five boys in the same house, uh, is, you know, mainly for my parents, but for the boys too, right?
So, you know, there were times, there were periods of there where you didn't like this one, this one was mad at you, that one, you know, just normal life, family events, uh, but we have become very, very close. Uh, after we kind of all got out of the house and doing our own thing, uh, we became a close family. And, you know, you just can't make it through life without your family, and I don't care if it's a small, you know, one child, uh, family with your parents or parent, uh, that family unit is so critically important for everything you do.
Because it's the one place, [00:02:00] Marc, that you can come back when all of the rest of the world may give up on you, and you can come back to your family unit, and after a little bit of ribbing, of course. Uh, they'll be with you. I mean, they'll be with you at the end of the day. Uh, you know, it's that family fight thing.
You know, we can, we can argue amongst ourselves, but boy, nobody else better ever come in the yard and argue with us. That ain't gonna work. So it's that kind of a, uh, an effort in the world that I think is a bit missing for some families, and I feel bad for that. If more families had that place where they could come together, when, again, it's not always when everything's going great, It's the most important when it's not going all that well that you have that family that you can call and pick up the phone and talk to them or be a part of them and, uh, you know, all the days I remember of our family outings.
Um, and, you know, in the comedy scripts that probably could be written, uh, you know, from those adventures really means a lot to me and it was part of who I am. And so I think that is important and I do think it's the cell that forms who we are and [00:03:00] how we relate to a community and how that community relates to a larger world.
Marc Beckman: Well, it's, it's interesting if you think about it. I'm just listening to your words, and obviously you're running for the United States Senate seat in Michigan right now, which is super important, a swing state and all, um, but these days it seems like America, generally speaking, is really looking at, um, elections at the top down, from the presidential seat, the executive branch of government down, but in so many ways, it's the bottom, the communities, the family and the communities that are That really set the policy and set the tone for what Americans need.
So I'm curious if we, if we hone in on Michigan specifically and you looked at, if you were going to eavesdrop on, on a family in Michigan, what do you think over dinner that family is talking about? What is it that they want, um, from their government?
Mike Rogers: Well, the good news is I have been all over the state. I have talked to every, you know, families of, you know, every race, every, you know, [00:04:00] station in life, if you will. Uh, and, I'll tell you exactly what they're talking about. They can't afford, uh, groceries. Uh, I talked to one woman, four kids. was telling me about, uh, the fact that, uh, I said, what keeps you up at night?
She started walking through her story. She's working part time, her husband's working full time in a small factory in Michigan. Uh, and she just loses it. She just starts sobbing. Um, and it's because the last two or three days of the month, she has to go to the food pantry to feed her four kids. She doesn't want to be there.
She said the first month, I didn't even tell my husband I had to go. Uh, she said I was so embarrassed. And she said, I just, this is not the kind of life I want to give my kids, uh, and I don't know if I can get, you know, more part time jobs. I got four kids to raise. And so I, you know, people are really worried about their personal budgets in a way I've never seen before.
And literally some are making the, how much gas do I put in the tank to get to work so I can make sure I have enough money left over to buy food. It's happening. [00:05:00] Over about 45 percent of our families in Michigan are living paycheck to paycheck, meaning if their refrigerator goes out. And guess what?
They're in trouble. They don't have money to, they don't have money to replace it to get it working again. Uh, they're worried about illegal immigration. We've had a kind of a crime spree here in Michigan where, uh, organized crime court cartels from, uh, Mexico in, in these two cases facilitated to come across the border from the Mexican cartels.
There are Chilean cartels and there are Colombian cartels who are doing high end crime operations in Southeast Michigan. Uh, we've had even the lower, you know, the lower end of that, we've had, uh, young, young girls who are sexually assaulted. We've had several cases now come out, uh, here in the last, uh, few months.
Uh, that's a problem. So people are worried about, hey, I'm having a hard time with my energy bill, or if they have kids, they're worried about, like, they can't afford a house. You know, we have family members that are going through that here, where [00:06:00] they, they, if they're, the house in their range sells so fast because there's so many trying to get in, uh, that they never have a chance, they get outbid, uh, and when that bidding goes up, it gets, uh, ahead of where they can do on their down payments.
Huge problem, uh, for that generation, and of course the parents who want to see them getting out. So all of these things are real life, uh, problems for them, and then the last bit is they're wondering, is Michigan going to be a place where my kids can find a job? and stay with the family. You know, you talked about the family and how important it is and it is, you know, can they stay or do they have to leave the state to find work?
And Michigan gets hit harder than most when, when we have these automotive problems. You know, when they start talking about mandating the kind of cars you have to drive and mandating the kind of cars that the auto companies have to build, we've seen the consequences here. We had 2, 400 layoffs at Stellantis.
We had 1, 000 layoffs at General Motors. We had, uh, Ford has now, uh, took a 5 billion loss on just its electric vehicle [00:07:00] unit. Uh, huge problem, and people are starting to get a little jittery here, thinking, Okay, you keep going down this path, 40 percent less labor, what does that do? That's 400, 000. 400, 000 manufacturing jobs.
My home isn't worth as much. My business isn't worth as much. Uh, that, that, you know, there's a lot of anxiety over that in our great state of Michigan.
Marc Beckman: So it sounds like to me Michiganers are really concerned about, um, their bank accounts, their safety, and their future.
Mike Rogers: Oh, absolutely. And part of that future, talk to a lot of moms. Our schools are in trouble. Our education system's in trouble. You think about it, last year, 57 percent of high school seniors couldn't read at the 6th grade level. You think about it, last year, 57 percent of high school seniors couldn't read at the 6th grade level.
In Michigan, 80 percent of our students are not reading at grade level. Uh, we have a huge problem with literacy, [00:08:00] uh, happening in America. Nobody wants to talk about it because it's uncomfortable. Uh, but we have this huge problem that we're going to have to do something about. And what moms are starting to understand is, my gosh, I thought that there were, uh, they were getting all those tools.
Uh, and getting that education. And they're not. Uh, my wife and I are involved in this group that does, uh, reading reclamation. Uh, and they have a secret sauce, Marc, it's called phonics. Uh, they're teaching these kids how to read and they're trying to get them up to grade level. They're finding kids in high school reading at the first and second grade level.
In high school.
Marc Beckman: Mike, what do you, what is that, why is that, what do you, what do you blame for that type of, uh, massive deficit with regards to our education system? It's, you're talking public schools specifically, yeah?
Mike Rogers: Public schools. And, uh, and their, their private schools are full. Think of this. The Catholic school in Dearborn, Michigan, which is primarily a Muslim community, Uh, is, is, uh, about half, uh, Muslims, the Catholic [00:09:00] school, because they're terrified about sending their kids to the local public school. There's just not a lot of education happening in there.
You know, they have this rule in Michigan, and they just passed it again through the Democrat legislature, Democrat senate, Democrat governor signed it, that if you can't read in the fourth grade, it's okay to pass you up. And what we know is that if you can't read in the 4th grade, by the 4th grade, at the 4th grade level, you have about a 70 percent chance of going to prison or being on welfare.
I mean, it's so unacceptable. And so what the school system is saying, Oh, that's just too hard. We don't want to fail anyone. It might hurt their feelings, so let's pass them up. You're sentencing those kids. Sentencing those kids. Uh, to, uh, a life of crime or, or on being on welfare for the rest of their life.
Institutional poverty, so no way to get out of it. And so, well, again, my wife and I have been doing this for a few years, we're big believers in this. It's a non profit, goes in one day a week, uh, tutors for, and it has to be the same [00:10:00] tutor, really important, we've learned that along the way. Same tutor, hour a day, five days a week.
Uh, and, uh, we can get you up to reading and, and grade level. And I think we need to do this. We need to pay attention to this earlier. But what's really exciting about it is when the, this, this group did, did this first, uh, and a wonderful woman run, runs this, and she's just been grinding this out for 20 years trying to get this thing off the ground.
And it's starting to catch fire now. Is, uh, The teachers were opposed to it. They don't want, they're saying, I'm having a hard time teaching now, you're going to take a student out of my class for an hour a day? That's not going to work. Uh, and the, the school said, try it. They tried it. And now when the teacher, when the kid went back, the teacher said, hey, can you take all my kids out for an hour a day?
Because you get to teach the grade level. Imagine if you're reading at the fourth grade level and you're a ninth grader, how in the world is that teacher supposed to teach that, that student. You're not teaching that student. And how is, is she, is she not being fair to the students who can read at the ninth grade level?[00:11:00]
We've created such a mess, and it's not the teacher, everybody wants to point fingers, it's not the teachers. We need to settle back down. We need to demand everything else out of school except, as my dad would call it as a shop teacher, the three R's. Readin writin and arithmetic. Get these kids focused on what's important.
I think if we solve this reading problem, Marc, we're going to solve a ton of problems and anxiety and lack of confidence in these kids. And then they get hit with social media. Uh, you know, pretty much out of the womb anymore, and I think all of this mixture and cauldron is really causing problems. We know that in 2022, uh, 30 of teenage girls thought about killing themselves.
You know, 10 of them attempted suicide. That's a crisis. That's an absolute crisis. Uh, and I think their social media is probably going to be at the root of this, but we need [00:12:00] to find out. We need to get their, uh, reading, writing, arithmetic skills up, uh, to where they have the confidence to pursue academics and feel comfortable in their own skin.
This is, I think it's a combination of things we have to do, but I'm telling you, we have to do it. You know the, one of the big reasons why we're missing our recruiting numbers in the United States military every year? They can't read well enough to pass the test.
Marc Beckman: is that right?
Mike Rogers: Yes, this is crazy. We can't allow this to happen.
It's just dangerous for all.
Marc Beckman: it sounds like the idea of, um, helping individuals with their reading, writing, and arithmetic on a, on a, on an individual basis will take a lot because there are so many people in the country now that are struggling with the basic fundamental, um, levels of academia.
I know there's a big movement right now, almost like a groundswell with regards to supporting the concept of school choice. Do you feel like that would also be a benefit to the Michigan community?
Mike Rogers: Absolutely, we have to have school choice. We need [00:13:00] to interject a competition and parents have the right to have their children at least Attempt to get a good education. You know, there's no guarantees in life, and I'm a kind of a meritocracy guy, but they ought to have the chance and the rigor to get a good education.
I think school choice has to be a part of that. There are just absolutely underwhelming schools that are just milling these kids through. And I think it's not healthy for them or their futures that they continue to do this. Uh, and school choice is a big part of it. So you say, well, what are you going to do as a senator?
A U. S. senator, that's not, you know, schools aren't really the federal thing, and I don't think they should be, other than we should be encouraging school choice. But the other part of this is where I think we can get at it. One of the problems these teachers tell me is, their parents, some, some places there's not a book in the house.
I mean, nothing to read is in the house, uh, and that's a problem. And what we're finding out is if these folks are economically disadvantaged, they've been on government welfare for a while. They probably can't read [00:14:00] themselves. So one of the things that I want to do is, if you're on welfare, I want you to get help.
I think it's important that you get help, but we also want you to be able to empower yourself to do better, right, to get out of this, to move up, uh, and one of the ways we can do that is teach you to read. If you're reading at a fourth and fifth and sixth grade level as an adult, you can't fill out a job application, there's not a lot of opportunities out there for you.
And what we're finding, and you talk to employers. They're finding this too, uh, so what I said is, listen, why don't we require that you go through a reading assessment. Remember, it's only an hour a day, five days a week, uh, we can do it in, uh, six to fourteen weeks, they say, depending on how, where your reading level is.
They can get you up to a reading level where you can, you know, start up skilling. And my argument is, small price to pay, we're going to help you. But we want you to help yourself. Uh, I think it's a requirement, it should be a requirement to get, uh, to continue to get government assistance. You just go through the program, and how empowering it is.
If you've, there's some [00:15:00] great YouTube videos out there of people who have not been able to read, pretended, you know, they're 35, 36, 37 years old, and now they're going through this process of learning how to read. Um, it's pretty emotional, uh, right? I mean, it just opens up their whole world in a way that they weren't before.
And, you know, there's anger issues, there's other things, because you, you want to hide that. Um, I just think this is the right way. I think this helps with the kids, too. Why? Now those parents can read to their kids. They can't read to their kids today. They can, they can read to their kids. They can be a part of their educational success.
Um, I also believe, uh, we should do this for prisoners. They're also, you know, 70 percent chance you're reading at about the 4th, 5th, 6th grade level. So what we can do is require, uh, that if you want to get out early, you know, if you want to do your whole sentence and not go through a reading reclamation program, have at it.
Now remember, this is only, You know, four to 16 weeks roughly, uh, maybe a little longer if [00:16:00] you, if you're, you know, got a little more needs there. Uh, but you know, want to chop a year off your sentence and you can read, man, I'm for it as a guy, a former law enforcement guy, I am for it because it gives you an opportunity not to come back.
And we ought to be about when we're sending somebody to prison. There are some people I can tell you, Marc. Probably should never get out, you know, you can see it in their eyes, you can see it in their, there is no soul, uh, we all, we can, law enforcement can figure out who those people are. But there are people who go, who deserve to be able to come out and try again.
And my argument is, there's a way to do that, is empower them through reading. If we just solve the reading problem, there's a Forbes study a few years ago, showed if we could get people reading at grade level, 11th, 12th grade level, it would be a $1.7Trillion dollar gain to the economy. Why? Upskilling, better jobs.
Some people will go off and get an education. Huge impact. Uh, and it's just laying there for us. This is something we can fix. You know, my wife tells me I'm a, [00:17:00] you know, I like to say I'm an eternal optimist. My wife tells me it's a genetic defect that I have.
Marc Beckman: It's, you know, it's incredible that these numbers aren't really out there as much as, um, they should be. It really, a strong, um, intellectual foundation obviously provides for a lot, but it also allows for the individual to feel productive. And I think with that comes better self esteem, more happiness, and then locks in a more productive society in general.
And, and We don't let the government unlock that, that individual freedom and liberty enough these days, in my opinion. It's kind of funny, I know you're running for a Republican seat, but I remember back when I was in law school, President Clinton, a Democrat, instituted a program surrounding, uh, quote unquote, the welfare mothers back then, where he said, look, we're going to help you for a little while, but at some point we're going to cut you off.
And the idea there was to empower these women who wanted to go out into the work world and, and, you know, flourish as [00:18:00] individuals. So a lot of what you're talking about, Mike, is really unlocking the individual's productive nature to build their self esteem, to create more value, economic and peace within society.
Mike Rogers: Absolutely, and you know, one of our, the kind of a framing of our country was that you could actually pursue things based on who you are, not what your title was, not where you came from, not if you came from a lot of money. It was about what do you offer, and, and what we're saying is, let's give you the tools to be that person, to do whatever you want.
You want to go into a small business, reading is a very essential tool into that, uh, component. Uh, and whatever you want to do, and think of that empowerment. It really empowers you, uh, to be, you know, your own person, do your own good in your own way. To me, that's the American dream. You can, if you can knock those three out, you've done it, and it doesn't matter.
It doesn't mean you have to be Bill Gates. Uh, thankfully, cause I, at least I'm not, maybe you are on your way, but [00:19:00] I'm certainly not on my way. Uh, but you, but you can be somebody who does something phenomenal in your, in your own community. I remember there was a guy, real quick, at a charter school in Detroit, I went to visit, uh, a couple years ago.
And, there was a janitor in there, and I happened to walk by, and the school was immaculate. I mean, it just looked fantastic.
Marc Beckman: was proud.
Mike Rogers: He was very proud. I walked out and I said, hey sir, I, boy, man, that looks beautiful. I'm just telling you, this is like the cleanest place ever. Uh, you know, I was joking, would you mind coming back home with me, please? I mean you're doing a better job than I'm doing and you know he stopped and he said you know something thank you for saying that he said but I look at it this way I'm not teaching these kids but I'm showing these kids and I am a clean environment is going to make them a better student and that's my contribution to what to learning here in this school and he was very proud of his his school and he it should have been and he was proud of his work
Marc Beckman: Booker T. [00:20:00] Washington did that too. When he started his schools, he had, uh, the students taking care of themselves. They did everything from cleaning, not just with regards to personal hygiene, but everything that they had, they took care of. And that was part of empowering and unlocking the better individual. Mike, you mentioned, um, your background in law enforcement, and I know that you were in the FBI as well, but what, um, the, the, the viewers of this episode might not be aware of is the incredible career that you had while you were in the house, uh, the United States House of Representatives.
You were in the US House of Representatives from 2001 until 2015. In 2011. You were named chair of the House Intelligence Committee, which is incredible. And in 2012, you warned us, you warned the Americans that Chinese companies, such as Huawei and ZTE, posed a national security threat to the United States.
So I'm curious if you could break that down a little bit and [00:21:00] explain back then What was it that you found about these Chinese companies to be a threat, um, and then what was your recommendation for the country to thwart off the, the Chinese, uh, threat with these tech companies?
Mike Rogers: Yeah, so great, thank you for that question. So when I became chairman, I developed a relationship with my Democrat counterpart. And he was a former prosecutor, I was a former FBI agent, and he joked that, you know, an FBI agent should always listen to his prosecutor. And I said, okay, that's okay, well, long story short, we developed a very strong working relationship that turned into a friendship.
We're still friends to this day.
Marc Beckman: Who was it?
Mike Rogers: Uh, a guy named Dutch Ruppersberger of Baltimore, Maryland, uh, a wonderful guy, I mean a really wonderful guy. He cared about America first. And so what we did is sat down, think of this, they hadn't had a budget in that committee in about six years because they fought so much they couldn't [00:22:00] agree candidly to turn the lights on some days.
And 78 billion budget. and we, if we're going to do proper oversight, we need to make sure that we are providing the framework for us to do that oversight, so you're not getting good oversight if you're not approving a budget every year. Uh, you know, it sounds a little archaic, but that's exactly the way those organizations work.
They were just going to the appropriators in Congress who were just handing them bags full of money because they didn't have a budget to apply it to. So we said, no more, we're not going to do that. And we said, can we work this out? Uh, and we did. Uh, and we got a ton done because we decided, this is national security, it's too important to be partisan on this.
Uh, you know, we can fight about domestic things on the outside of this place, but let's get this agreed that we can do this together. And we did. And it takes two of, two people to do that. That was, you know, took my leadership, it took his leadership
Marc Beckman: kudos to you because it feels like, uh, we're not, we're not working, uh, together [00:23:00] at all these days,
Mike Rogers: No, I don't, and I don't think we are. You know what was crazy about that, Marc, and I'll get to this Chinese question, I apologize. But, people in our own parties came after us when we were having these discussions and going through it. Here's a funny story. We, uh, that first summer that we are, we said we're going to do a budget, and by the way, this isn't sexy, go on TV kind of stuff, this is line by line on these budgets about, you know, helicopter fuel and, you know, you know, different operational expenses, lease expenses internationally.
All that kind of stuff that isn't all that sexy, but at the end of the day, really important, adds up to 78 billion dollars. And so we went through it all painstakingly, places we agreed, places we didn't agree, we set our disagreements aside, agree on a bunch, and then come back and try to work through our differences on that.
Worked. Literally, we sat there and it's a hot, I remember it was a hot day in, in, uh, D. C., Washington, D. C., and this is in the bowels of the Capitol building, where they have the, you know, the classified space [00:24:00] for the Intelligence Committee. And we reached across the table to shake hands, and I'm like, we got a deal.
Yep, we got a deal. We reach across, we shake hands, and the whole building goes, choom, choom, choom. Remember the earthquake? The Washington, D. C. earthquake? It happened right when we were shaking hands. We thought, oh my god, we broke the place. What have we done? Now what have we done? We had to evacuate out. We still tell that story today and laugh about it.
but that set the pace for the next few years and it allowed us to get a ton done. And one of the things we wanted to do and I, we, he and I talked about it. Listen, we understand that China is a rising threat. Uh, they, uh, you know, they went after us in space. Uh, they had at that time, they were launching anti satellite missiles as a test and they were, you know, they were doing what they were supposed to be doing.
And so we said, okay, we now we're no longer dominant in space. And then we were getting all this information about how these two companies, Huawei [00:25:00] and ZTE were undercutting American companies, uh, because they were subsidized by the Chinese government. And when you look at it, sometimes the install cost, with the operational cost, was less than, uh, the cost, uh, that we could do it, uh, anywhere else.
Our companies. Well, they were doing that on purpose. They were trying to put this gear in and around all across the U. S., all across our allies. Funny how they started in areas very close to our military installations. And we went and said, alright, well, let's find out for sure. Because there were people who said, no, no, no, they're fine.
Well, we did a very deep dive, and what we found is a couple of things. A, the FBI was not configured to investigate this. We changed that. The CIA was not all that interested in it, wasn't sexy enough. We changed that. Uh, and what we did is release a report, uh, that, uh, people still use to this day, uh, to try to make sure that Huawei doesn't come in undercut, and why, the reason why is we listed all the ways that they cheat in order to get those [00:26:00] contracts, and so people were applying those rules internationally.
The Australians came to us and said, man, if you hadn't done this, we'd have been a Huawei country for sure. And then we showed how there was both a classified and unclassified report that said, these are collection platforms used by Beijing to facilitate other espionage activities, both intellectual property theft and try to figure out what our government agencies were doing.
And then after that, we put in place something called Rip and Replace, wherever there was Huawei gear in America. Uh, we were using the, the service fund that people pay on their cable bill for phone, uh, to use it to rip that gear out and replace it with trusted gear, uh, really, really important and it was, uh, and it's still been, it's been a lifelong journey really for that.
Marc Beckman: That's pretty remarkable. Some people might argue that that's really like protectionism, but you really saw the, the security threat. It was a legitimate security threat, which is, is great. I mean, I, I [00:27:00] thank you personally. Um, what kind of threats do you see that are related to cyber security and, and technology?
That's Today, that was, that was about, what, 10, 15 years ago. So now here we are going into, you know, the, the autumn of 2024. Um, what do you see as it relates to cyber security threats? I know here in New York City, I interviewed actually the chief technology officer of New York City who oversees Um, cyber security attacks and I don't know if you're familiar with this, Mike, you probably are actually, but New York City has, um, he describes it as 80 billion cyber events.
He says events, but they're attacks, um, against New York City infrastructure every single week. And that's why he's created this, uh, cooperation with the federal government, um, in, and, and the New York City, um, entity, the New York City arm of it. But what kind of, what kind of threats do you see, uh, today?
Mike Rogers: Yeah, and so when I got out of Congress, one of the things I wanted to do, we weren't ready [00:28:00] cyber wise even in the U. S. government and so once I saw that what Huawei was doing, I was, went to work on saying, hey, we gotta, we have to improve. Our, uh, protection capabilities, and candidly, I'm not sure the U. S.
government's still gotten it right yet. But I went out and said, okay, I want to participate in the cyber, or the private sector for cyber security. How can I help companies, uh, A, up their game, uh, and B, try to help protect networks, small business. And what will, people get confused. 85 percent of the networks out there are private networks.
The NSA, the FBI, the Homeland Security Agency is not monitoring those networks. So if somebody's in there trying to get in your system, they don't see it because they don't monitor it. And I know there's a lot of misconception about if that's true or not, but trust me, they're not watching it. If they see it overseas, before it gets fired into the country, they can notify.
Uh, but if that, if they don't see it and they don't catch it, it means, you know, clean up on aisle [00:29:00] nine in your company, or in New York City is an example. So, what's happening now is AI is accelerating the threat, and it is making things come at these folks faster, it's finding vulnerabilities faster, it's actually writing code to find vulnerabilities faster, uh, so it's taken some of the slow human element out of it and replaced it with this really accelerated.
process to get into your networks. Now, the good news is, uh, uh, private sector companies are also using AI, uh, to try to help get out front of this, uh, so it's, you know, AI on AI battles, uh, but at the end of the day, the biggest, weakest link in any network People. Um, and so it's, uh, they're very, very aggressive.
About 90 percent of all the Chinese successful penetrations of a network happen because of a phishing email. And what they're using AI to do is build these really incredible, uh, profiles of someone [00:30:00] so that when they write the email, man, is it hard to, It's hard to figure out you shouldn't be clicking on it.
That's what they've been doing of late. And so it's going to get worse. It's going to continue to get worse. Ransomware is getting worse. That's where they go in and lock down your system and say, you know, pay me a thousand bucks or, or you don't get it back. Uh, and that's happening more and more. Uh, and then just simple penetrations.
The other thing, if I may, that the Chinese are doing now, and the Russians have engaged in this for years, is they're using human, human spies to let, collect credentials. So they'll come to you and snuggle up to you, Marc, and say, well, you know, hey, we're friends and all that. By the way, uh, can you give me your password today?
I'm having a hard time getting in my network. And you go, oh yeah, sure, here, you know, get in and then I'll just change my, my, uh, you know, my whatever later. Well, what happens is that goes right back to Beijing or, or Moscow or Tehran. Uh, and their cyberwarriors go right to work to penetrate those networks.
So even if you change your, your [00:31:00] password later, guess what? Done. They're in.
Marc Beckman: so Mike, do you think that's an issue? I don't know if you heard the news, um, so forgive me if you haven't yet, but it, it seems that Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York State's, um, number one assistant, this woman, this, uh, woman from China, was just found to be a spy. do you think what you're talking about could be a, a potential problem or already is a problem, but, you know, us New Yorkers haven't heard about this yet?
Mike Rogers: Yeah. Oh, it's definitely a problem. They're using, uh, and here they have several ways to do it. One, they'll train an intelligence officer, uh, to come over. Uh, and I'll give you a great case, so I think the Hochul case is probably a legitimate spy case. There was a, an instance a few years ago, where they had this program in the Army, if you joined the Army Reserves, you could get a secret clearance, uh, and go about your business doing work for the Army at a secret clearance level, which is kind of the lower level.
Well, there was a Chinese national who was doing work at, um, a, Out at a university connected to a national lab, [00:32:00] and what was happening is he was having a, he was having a hard time, uh, getting into the network, apparently, and he was trying to steal credentials, we find this out afterward, of his colleagues, wasn't very, wasn't having a good success rate at that, uh, and they kept saying, well, you can't get closer to the work because you don't have a clearance, so, and he's a trained intelligence officer, by the way, When as a student, he goes, finds, they find out about this program, he joins it, he goes through Army basic training, he gets his secret clearance, he goes back and says, hey, I have my secret clearance now.
They went, oh great, well here, here's access to all this stuff, and they were able to use that to penetrate the network. Now they caught him based on a, You know, in the, in the hotbed of international espionage, you know, Jason Bourne movies are made about, you know, Deer, uh, Dayton, Ohio, right? Uh, this is where they hubbed it out, and we're running agents, uh, and this happened to be in Illinois.
So you can see how they work, right? They, and they're very persistent. So I'm guaranteeing you that spy was, [00:33:00] uh, As we saw, killed a Taiwanese delegation from coming to New York was one of the things she did. She got it turned off, right? That's exactly what they would ask of her. But they would also ask of her to try to help them penetrate networks.
Because there's a lot more information, if I can get in the governor's, uh, you know, inner circle, cyber wise. Man, there's no end to what I can collect, and that's probably what she was, she was doing a combination of both. Human spy, enabling cyber operations. That's kind of the new era, and we're going to see a lot more of it.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, that's pretty scary. Mike, um, talking about artificial intelligence for a second, just to stay on that topic. AI is a major issue for me. In fact, I'm releasing my new book, my second book on AI in November, which I'm really excited about. But, um, about a year ago, I had a chance to sit down with Congressman Byron Donalds, and we were talking about, um, American, the American government's Inability to properly handle [00:34:00] regulations surrounding cryptocurrency and blockchain.
And I think as a result of the uncertainty in the marketplace, specific to cryptocurrency and blockchain, we've lost investment. We've lost jobs and we've lost growth with AI. There's this big undercurrent, as you're aware. of, um, or a big push to slow down, to decelerate, um, uh, artificial intelligence innovation.
And, you know, clearly, there's an arms war right now. You talk about China and the United States. AI is at the center of it. And what I'm curious about in your, from your perspective When you talk about cyber security attacks being ramped up as a result of AI allowing for the attackers to create more of a threat, it's also used to benefit us on the defense side.
So do you think that AI should be regulated at the government level now? And if so, what do you think? Will that have a chilling effect, not just on, with regards to, um, creating growth within the business sector, [00:35:00] but also chilling our innovation to thwart off international attacks with AI? I
Mike Rogers: Yeah. So, I, when, you know, I always shudder at the term regulation, um, and government. If you can find five senators that really understand AI. I think you're going to win a prize. And so if you're going to have the U. S. Senate regulating or Congress regulating, it worries me because you're going to have a small group trying to dictate this big regulatory regime over a technology that is changing every 18 months.
And now maybe even sooner. I mean, I've talked to technologists who their hair's on fire. Like I have never seen anything change as quickly as AI. So I think that scares people and I will tell you this quick story if I may. There was this, was relayed to me, there were a missile test. In that missile test, they were trying to check if AI could have a, make this missile more accurate.
So every, [00:36:00] every time The whole time we were the cone of that missile as it was flying. Everything from, you know, radio signals to bariatric pressure, uh, you know, uh, moisture, everything that hit the tip of that. Well, what they wanted is to find your target as fast as you can, uh, Uh, and as accurate, accurately as you can, right?
That was the mission set. And it said, by the way, we've got reserve batteries, and the reason they use these reserve batteries is if something went wrong, they want to fire those batteries to fire it into the ground, right? It wasn't, it wasn't live ammunition, but you just don't want that thing flying off into a neighborhood or something.
Well, what happened was, it was firing, it was going along. And the AI was doing everything it was supposed to do, making all the corrections, it was making great speed. And it did a calculation, the AI that was programmed into this, this missile, that if I used, if I had a little more juice, I could hit my target faster, right?
And more accurately. And it said, so apparently [00:37:00] my, you know, human coders didn't understand this very well. It, it bypassed the firewall, went back and used. The, uh, some of the power from those batteries to get to its target faster now didn't do anything crazy Other than it it violated its protocol. And so that's where people in the military are like, okay How do we protect against violations of protocol, you know, and that was pretty rudimentary in the beginning We've come a long way since then, but if you think about it, that's where this fear about AI is coming from Shoygu, who is the defense minister Uh, under Putin, uh, is the guy that said whoever controls AI wins the next land war.
Um, so they believe that's a big part of their military, you know, their future military prep, uh, preparedness. We know China is already building, you know, uh, dogs and soldiers and submarines, all AI operated that can operate autonomously. And [00:38:00] so that's where I think people are having this thing, uh, this concern.
I argue if the more regulation you put on this, the quicker we're going to die. Uh, you know, we're going to, we're going to be passed by, not die, but pass by on the technological train. And so we've got to be very, very careful. What I would do is go back and say, why can't we have the discussion about what protocols do you want to put it on a weapons system?
Okay, that's a legitimate question, I think, you know, do you want, uh, you know, uh, an autonomous, uh, Fighter Jet, uh, takes off and, you know, and, and by the way, loses connection, so it has all that AI programming. Do you want, do you want it on there or not? I mean, let's talk about it. What does that mean? And what are the protections?
I think those are good issues to have a conversation about, but they're so worried about clamping down on it, I worry that we will lose out, and you'll have an AI army, if you will, You know, coming at you. And so, think of the, if you're an infantry officer or infantry, uh, uh, uh, sergeant, [00:39:00] platoon leader on the battlefield, and you have AI enabled decision making, and the reason they're talking about this is because it's not a, it's gonna do the fighting for you, It, it's gonna make sure that when you make a decision, you know, imagine if in your visor, you know exactly how many mortar rounds you have, exactly how many soldiers you have wounded, and how they're wounded, and are they fight worthy, instantaneously, right?
Imagine how that could change the battlefield for you in a good way. Uh, and, you know, when you need to get a soldier removed off the battlefield because the injuries are at a certain state or whatever. So you think about what AI can do for us, even at a small tactical unit level, and what it can do when a, you know, fighter jet takes off with no pilot and has a mission set that, uh, doesn't risk our lives to accomplish the mission, I, you know, you got, I think we have to find that medium somewhere.
Marc Beckman: Yeah, but I wonder, Mike, if it's too premature to start regulating, like, for example, we could break it down and make it a little bit easier, like, AI is [00:40:00] algebra. So are we regulating algebra? And to go a little further, are we regulating something that hasn't, like, does it make sense to regulate something that hasn't occurred yet?
We're just, you know, Guessing, right, we're predicting that all of these issues might happen, like I, I know this is like being very simplistic, but when I was young, I would, I was in the backseat of my parents car, bopping around, there was no regulation with regards to kids wearing seatbelts back then.
Obviously several kids were hurt and killed. Eventually it made sense to have a seatbelt on. Is it time for the government to put the AI seatbelt on American innovation, on American business, even on American military? Um, or should we keep pushing forward and propelling forward until we get to that critical point where we see a need to go a little further, regulate and protect the, the citizenry?
Mike Rogers: Yeah, I, I don't think there should be any thought of regulation until people understand what it is. You know, there, uh, there's a lot of confusion between. Machine learning, uh, and, [00:41:00] uh, you know, I don't call it artificial intelligence most days. I call it augmented intelligence. And so that's why you don't want to get in front of that.
You want that augmentation to help us make better decisions faster, quicker, sooner. And so I think regulation, being in a hurry to regulate is never a good idea.
Marc Beckman: And we're, and we're seeing some problems with regards to government, I think, coercing a little bit, getting too involved with regards to third party technological companies that as a result, it's, it's hurting, you know, Americans and, and maybe arguably even impeding on their constitutional liberties.
Like, for example, If we move away from artificial intelligence for a second and think in terms of free speech and social media, just now we saw the Zuckerberg memo with regards to Facebook and the government. I'm sure you saw that. And, you know, it's very interesting what's happening. I don't know if you're following the story with Elon Musk and X in Brazil, but it's amazing to me that No [00:42:00] politicians, no American politicians have stood up to defend an American based company, um, in Brazil that's being shut down, essentially shutting down, uh, the freedom of speech of, of people, you know, throughout the world, but it is an American company.
So I'm curious, like, do you think that, um, the, the idea of the American government, uh, coercing or, or influencing these big tech companies is effectively hurting? American individuals. And we can focus on the freedom of speech issue because I think it's legitimate now.
Mike Rogers: Oh, I mean, and they have proof that the government, uh, after they denied it. was doing it. That it's, it should, we should all, that should have the hair on the back of everyone in America's neck go up a little bit. Uh, that the government felt that it was going to be the final arbiter of what was free speech, uh, as in an election year, by the
Marc Beckman: And you're talking about election. I mean, Biden hasn't said a word about the Facebook memo. Harris hasn't said a word [00:43:00] about the Facebook memo. And to my under, it's my understanding that your competition, Slotkin, she hasn't said a peep about the Facebook memo.
Mike Rogers: No, nothing. Um, because I think there's this general mood, when you come from government, so, you know, my opponent, uh, is, you know, spent a lot of time outside of Michigan, she's, she went to a very elitist high school, went off to, uh, Cornell and Columbia University, and then camped out in Washington, D. C.,
became, went, she was a CIA analyst for a while, then became a, uh, political appointee, uh, and then came back to run. And I think your perspective sometimes is a little warped when you do that because it's all centered around Washington, D. C. making all the decisions and having all the information. And I think when you're sitting there like that FBI guy did who said, you know, I'm going to call the tech company and throw the weight of the U.
S. government at them and say, we're going to, we're going to, you We're going to censor, uh, really dangerous, very dangerous, [00:44:00] uh, and man, we, we got to guard against that. Matter of fact, I've said that, and, and if there's some compelling reason that they have to do it, uh, then the company, uh, would be required to report to a committee of jurisdiction, both the Republican and the Democrat that's there, uh, what the government is asking.
I mean, how else do you stop this nonsense? Because what was happening is nobody knew it. Nobody knew it. So the company is thinking, well, now I have Department of Justice all up in my business, you know, basically threatening me if I don't censor this information that I'm somehow colluding with a foreign government of some sort.
Uh, and all of that turned out to be nonsense, except for the fact that they got them to not, uh, not do it. And
Marc Beckman: that an, is that. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but is that an initiative that you would take if you're elected as a United States Senate Senator to protect our freedom of speech? Would you try to pass a draft a bill and pass a bill that empowers United States [00:45:00] best based tech companies to basically whistleblow, right?
To call out when the government is exerting undue influence on them and as a result hurting American individual's liberties?
Mike Rogers: Absolutely, it would be the easiest thing I ever did. sunshine is the best sanitizer, and you know, having that transparency is really important. And by the way, if they write to this, the two, the Republican ranking and Democrat member and they go, you know, this is a problem and they look at it and go, well, you know, best interest of the state, okay.
But my odds are, think of if that memo would have come. Uh, to the, both of them, uh, somebody's hair would have been on fire, rightly so. And it keeps in check the largesse of the government, and these people were two and three layers down, but you know everybody knew about it, but it, it, it protected them, didn't protect the American people.
And so we've got to change that calculus. We have to change that, the leverage that the people who are worried about their [00:46:00] privacy and civil liberties have.
Marc Beckman: You know, Mike, it's interesting when you talk about the largesse of the American government. I think somehow that might get in the way of American growth too. So for example, although you have like, I'm looking, I'm thinking about the automotive industry for obvious reasons with you, but like if you, if you go China versus America and you think about the fact that you have this communist government in China with one point of view, as, as it relates to building cars, building EVs.
Creating, um, opportunity goods that are lower cost, right? It seems like they're a lot more efficient, and sometimes the American government gets in the way, um, perhaps, and, and it's allowing to, it's allowing China, our competition, to get a competitive edge. Um, how is China currently impacting the United States automotive Business.
What's happening in Michigan on the ground? I know you mentioned some layoffs before, but go a little deeper. Like, I understand that foreign automakers are manufacturing more in the United States today than domestic [00:47:00] automakers. Is that correct?
Mike Rogers: That's absolutely, I mean, we've got a few firsts that happened in the last four years. A, you're right, there are foreign automakers make more cars now in America than, uh, than our domestics do, and in Michigan that's a big deal. We've imported more food than we exported last year. First time in the history of the United States.
The interest rate on our national debt, the payment on, uh, interest is now going to be larger than Department of Defense. Uh, and credit card debt has surpassed one trillion dollars, first time in history in America. And that's because people are buying groceries and household goods in a way they didn't do it before.
Huge, huge problem, and they're carrying that debt. Huge problem. On the automotive side, we feel this a lot. So what did China do? The government of the United States came out and said, we're going to dictate to our car companies, uh, what kind of cars they have to buy by percentage. And then we're going to tell consumers they get [00:48:00] fewer and fewer choices so you have to buy an electric vehicle.
What China did is said, wow, one of the biggest automotive markets in the world just mandated they have to buy this certain type of car. We control 85 percent of everything that goes in that certain type of car. What do you think they were going to do? And you know what they do? They're building two coal plants a week.
To fuel the electricity to build these electric vehicles, uh, to send them and try to get them into the U. S. market. So they had a perfect market deal. I mean, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why they did what they did. And then here, the companies, the government came in and said, you have to build so much by this date.
Well, automotive building is a long process. It takes five years. By the time you see that new model car come out, five years of work has gone in it. And so they were scrambling around. Um, I'm a little mad at the car companies for actually running up and grabbing the cash, uh, to do it. Uh, but they thought, well, this is where everyone's going.
And the [00:49:00] reason they thought everyone was going was because the government was mandating that's where it was going. They forgot one really important thing. Consumers. Uh, and it's caused huge problems here. Matter of fact, they had to, they had to offer 170, I call it cash and prizes, that the state of Michigan offered 175 million and about a billion dollars in tax credits for a Chinese company tied to the Communist Party of China to build in a, just an idyllic hotel.
I'm here to talk to you about what we're doing in the rural area of Michigan, and folks are not amused by it, and they had to bring Chinese engineers with Chinese technology to build these batteries, of which 85 percent of it is processed in China. And so, it has created such a kerfuffle. As a matter of fact, my opponent signed a non disclosure agreement as a member of Congress, which I don't think is right, to help them facilitate getting access to this money and trying to build this plant.
It's unbelievable to me what we have done in such a short [00:50:00] period of time, and then those layoffs started happening, because Ford lost five billion dollars just in its EV line alone. They call it eFord. And they lost five, lost five billion dollars. They had to pay a hundred and, worked out to a hundred and thirty thousand dollars for every EV they sold.
They lost money.
Marc Beckman: It's not sustainable. It's insane. I think that Toyota, I believe the CEO of Toyota turned around and said like, look, we're not going down this path with EV anymore. We're going to focus on hybrids now. It's just not practical.
Mike Rogers: Yep
and can I tell you why that's such a great decision? Uh, and for the environmentalists who are looking at this going, Yeah, okay, but I'm a suspect. We've got to get rid of the emissions. Okay. 500 pounds of critical minerals, and they're critical, called critical because they're hard to get, not very environmentally friendly to get out of the ground, by the way, makes one all electric EV.
Remember, 85 percent of that has to be either sold through or processed in China, right? So we're seeding them a huge [00:51:00] market in our economy. Makes one all electric EV, that takes four tons of carbon out of the air. That same 500 pounds of critical minerals makes 90 hybrid cars. It takes 140 tons of carbon out of the air.
You don't have to plug it in. We get to keep all of those auto workers employed because there's gasoline engine components. We have 1. 1 million workers here tied to building a gas engine, right? And by the way, they want clean air too. This isn't, they're just saying we want dirty air at our job expense.
They're not saying that. They're getting better at this. Hybrid does both. Uh, you do only electric. 400, 000 Michigan jobs are leaving this state. 400, 000 manufacturing jobs. That will kill our state. It's going to kill our economy. We're going to send manufacturing overseas to China. That's why they're building plants in Mexico to sell us these cars, because they control the critical mineral market.
Marc Beckman: is it fair to say that your position is that climate change [00:52:00] matters, but let's take steps to get there the right way so that we can keep jobs in Michigan, in the United States, and when we're set up with the infrastructure properly, then we go all the way.
Mike Rogers: Yeah, and I do think markets over mandates. I mean, if you notice, the hybrid cars are selling like crazy. Why? People like the idea of it, and it doesn't, you don't have to plug it in at the end of the day. So yes, I absolutely agree with that. I would do that. We, we, if we're gonna do this, you have to get our electric grid ready for it.
It's not. So you're gonna have somebody have to buy a car that the electric grid can't handle. That's not fair. But, you know, we can do things like modular nuclear reactors, small reactors. We can, it's, they're safer. You can deal with the waste so much easier. Uh, and it's zero emissions. So you can start building.
Uh, uh, a cleaner environment, uh, and a cleaner economy, but you got to be smart about it, and bring consumers with you. Don't punish them. This is still America. Markets matter. Let [00:53:00] innovation solve these problems, and I'd be, you'd be amazed. Matter of fact, Toyota says they're going to have a electric vehicle that gets a thousand miles to a charge.
If that happens, I, guess what? You don't need the government to mandate it. People will be rushing to buy the thing. Sure.
Marc Beckman: I want to read to you a quote that, that Putin said this week, earlier this week. It's pretty wild. I just want to get your reaction to it. Um, you know, in the backdrop, we're not hearing this a lot, but there are Russian battleships in Cuba. Um, we have this crazy hostage trading thing happening with Russia.
And here's what Putin said this week. The elites are trying to insulate Russia. But it's already clear to everyone that it's not happening. There are many countries who support Russia and who support our desire to strengthen traditional values and to also fight for traditional values in their own countries.
Values of family, values of tradition. Healthy traditions that we have and that they have. Why would Putin be talking about this way? Like, what's his, [00:54:00] what's his point with regards to, uh, traditional values and, and, um, highlighting, uh, other countries and all? What's he getting at here? With, again, the backdrop, we have literally Russian battleships right off the coast of Miami in Cuba, and yet he's talking this way.
Mike Rogers: And a nuclear, a Russian nuclear submarine showed up in Havana as well, uh, and they've joined up with, the Russians joined up with the Chinese on, uh, to incur into, uh, uh, our airspace in Alaska, uh, right? So he's not playing, he's not rolling over and playing dead. He has a values based, uh, community, and he's trying to talk to his own people to say the West is bad.
Uh, the West has all of these problems, look at their family units, or have disintegrated, uh, and, you know, they have crime. If you've ever watched an RT episode, it looks like America is on fire 24 hours a day, right? And, cause they show all the bad things and put it in a, you know, in a clip, uh, to [00:55:00] show you how bad America is.
And so he's talking to his own people, that's what he's doing. Um, you know, they have a different cultural view on, you know, Uh, gay rights, they have a, you know, they have a, just a traditional, more, more traditional view, uh, on all of those issues that you see more prominent in places like the United States and Europe.
And so he's going to countries where he knows that's a selling point. And this is the crazy part. There are as many, actually it's more, more people live in a country, uh, that did not condemn Russia for the invasion than did. And so he's trying to take advantage of that math. Uh, and that's why you see him reaching out to places like Venezuela, you know, he reaches out to, you know, Cuba,
Marc Beckman: to,
that he's just walking around freely, and meanwhile, he just continues to attack the people in Ukraine on a daily basis. It's remarkable.
Mike Rogers: is remarkable. And he's, again, a lot of that, look at that as him, internal politics more than it's external politics.
Marc Beckman: Thank you for explaining that, actually. I found it, like, [00:56:00] fascinating to me, but Anyway, let's end this, baby. You've been so generous with your time. Here's what we do with every guest, Mike.
Mike Rogers: Uh oh.
Marc Beckman: It's like a lead It's like a leading question. I start the sentence, We, by integrating the name of the show, Some Future Day, and then my guests finish the sentence.
Are you game?
Mike Rogers: let's do it.
Marc Beckman: All right. So in Some Future Day, if the American government does not over regulate artificial intelligence, American ingenuity and businesses will become.
Mike Rogers: Uh, more efficient, uh, it will be more seamless. Uh, and there'll be less opportunity for, uh, corruption.
Marc Beckman: That's beautiful. I love it. Mike, if there's anything else you want to add right now, feel free.
Mike Rogers: Now, hey, thank you. I appreciate it. Listen, um, you know, I've had a lifetime of service and I thought I was out. I was in cyber security. I loved it. Uh, and in [00:57:00] politics nowadays, everything turns nasty in a hurry because they're trying to tear you down versus trying to, you know, talk your policy up. Uh, I, my wife and I just looked at this as an opportunity given all All of the challenges, understanding AI, understanding cyber, having government experience, and having private sector experience.
Man, wouldn't that be great if we could put that to work, to help Michigan families get back to work, make their paychecks go to the end of the month. Make sure that they're not worried about energy prices because the government has made them artificially high. or grocery prices because the government has made them artificially high.
We can get back to that America that's innovative, creative, uh, and we're going to get back to feeding the world, manufacturing the best products in the world, uh, and we're going to bring that debt down, uh, so that we're not paying interest payments bigger than Department of Defense.
Marc Beckman: Mike, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Some Future Day.
Mike Rogers: Thanks. Thanks so much, Marc. Enjoyed it.
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