The Art of Flight: Mastering Aerobatics and Airline Operations

The salient point of this episode revolves around the remarkable journey of Marco Bouw, who transitioned from a career in regional airlines to becoming a major airline pilot while also pursuing his passion for aerobatics. Throughout our discourse, we delve into Marco's early inspirations, including his experiences at the Oshkosh Airshow, which ignited his desire to fly. We share insights into the challenges and triumphs associated with our respective aviation paths, emphasizing the importance of adaptability and perseverance in the face of adversity. Notably, Marco recounts a harrowing incident involving a flat spin that necessitated his emergency ejection from the aircraft over water, a narrative that underscores the unpredictable nature of aviation. As we navigate through these experiences, we reflect on the intricate balance between professional commitments and personal aspirations, particularly in the context of family life and the pursuit of one's passions in aviation.

What is Pilot to Pilot?

Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.

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I'm Marco Bell, major airline pilot.

Do aerobatics, air shows or
flying since I was 1415 years old.

Aviation what is going on?

And welcome back to another
episode of the Pilot the Pilot Podcast.

My name is Justin Seams and I
am your host.

Today's episode is my good
friend Marco Bao.

Our tracks and our career is
somewhat similar now we've done some

different flying to get to
where we are.

He was a previous 121 regional
pilot, then he found his way to the

fractional and now he's at a
major with a lot of other cool flying

in between.

And there's also some
aerobatic flying in there and a pretty

gnarly story about pretty much
a flat spin that needed to jump out

of over water.

And guess what?

He's here to talk about it.

So he survived.

Wild story that's at the end.

You're not going to want to
miss that one.

But Mark and I kind of talk
about our experiences in the 121major

world, our previous
experiences in the 91k 135 world,

so it's pretty Much.

Got everything you could ever
want in one episode.

I hope you enjoy.

I really do.

If you do or you know anyone
that's thinking about what route

they should go, please send
this to them.

I think it could be some.

Some help.

Now there's no shade any
former companies.

If we have left the job to go
where we are today, it is mostly

just because of family
circumstances and what we thought

was best for their family.

We both agreed that we could
have stayed at any job for a whole

career if we really needed to
do it, but we just thought that this

would be the best option for us.

But AV Nation, I hope you're
having a great day and I hope you

enjoy this episode.

It is a really solid one.

I've been trying to get Marco
to come on for a long time, so I'm

pumped that he finally agreed
to and I'm more excited that our

schedule is finally lined up.

And it is crazy that the first
time we ever met was in Munich when

we lived like two and a half
hours away from each other.

But that's aviation for you.

So.

Aviation.

I hope you're having a great
day and I hope you enjoyed today's

episode.

Without any further ado,
here's Marco Bao.

Marco.

What's going on, dude?

Welcome to the Pilot to Pilot
podcast, yo.

Finally.

It's about time.

Time.

My last episode was with a
buddy of mine as well.

So it's.

It's fun interviewing two
people that I have known for a while,

who I call friends.

A lot of times it's the first
time I'm ever talking to someone,

which is always, sometimes interest.

Cause I'm like, I don't know
if we're going to get along at all,

if this is going to go well.

So it's.

It's nice, it's comforting.

I don't know, maybe they're worse.

Maybe it's worse when I know
something about you.

You know, the other ones, I'm
just like so caught off guard with

what people say.

I'm like, oh, shoot, that's cool.

But we'll see, you know, we'll
let the people decide if it's good

that I interview my friends or
if I should just keep interviewing

complete Internet randoms.

Yeah, well, we can bash on people.

That's what's great about
knowing each other.

True.

Yeah.

Let's talk crap about Neil.

We both owe Neil.

Terrible pilot.

There's a reason why open it
right on the table.

There's probably be the first
episode Neil ever listens to and

he's gonna Be so sad that we
started talking crap about him.

Wow, what?

25 seconds in.

So, Neil.

Yeah, at least I have to
listen to the rest of it, though.

Yeah, Neil, at.

At minute 45, we say something
nice about you.

And the last.

So you gotta listen the whole
thing, buddy.

All right.

All right, man.

The first thing I always do is
I always kind of just ask why.

I ask, why'd you want to
become a pilot?

What was the inspiration?

Was it something to do with
your family?

I know that your dad has owned
airplanes, so obviously you can talk

about that, but talk about why
Marco wanted to become a pilot.

Yeah, you know, I grew up
playing Microsoft Flight Simulator

a lot.

And kind of being where I was
at, there was.

There's always been a lot of
ga and my dad was.

My dad was a big GA guy, and he.

We're all originally from
Europe, so he originally had the

opportunity kind of late in
life to become a pilot and decided

not to take that route because
the time was pretty risky.

And so when we came to
America, he kind of got back into

aviation, and eventually I
kind of got a little bit of a bug,

and he was able to kind of
introduce me to flying and stuff

like that.

And first flight we did in a
Piper Warrior, I just hopped in the

back, fell asleep.

Didn't even was even awake for
the whole time.

Just went back to sleep.

And then when I was probably
like 16 years old, my.

My dad kind of was.

It was the summertime, and he
wanted to go to Oshkosh, and I wasn't

really doing much, and he had
done a vacation with my older brother,

and so he was like, you know,
I'll take him to Oshkosh with me

because he wanted to go.

And went to Oshkosh three days
after I got back, started my first

flight lesson.

Oh, no way.

So that was kind of like the
initial bug to be a pilot, per se.

I didn't really pursue airline
flying in the beginning.

It was actually act flying was
what really caught my bug initially.

And then I think until I got
older was when I realized, like,

oh, you know, family, career
and path and stuff like that.

But, yeah, mine was kind of
the why was really just.

It was just kind of a bug that
got nipped on me really early on.

And just from there, it kind
of took off.

What was it about Oshkosh that
kind of turned you on to flying?

Because you mentioned that you
were in G airplanes before, but nothing

really caught your eye there.

But Osh Kosh in particular was
like, hey, this is kind of what I

could do.

Was it just seeing people your age?

Was it seeing people that look
like you, that.

That you could kind of talk to
and see that it's accessible and

easy for you to do?

It was the air shows, you
know, the aerobatic guy.

Like I said, I do aerobatics now.

Getting the air shows.

And that was really the bug.

Like I said, the airline fly
wasn't really this whole avenue.

I was like, I was watching
people like Michael Gulian and Matt

Chapman, you know, Sean D.

Tucker, people like them.

And I was like, man, that's
really cool.

Like, you can go make money
and go to these big shows and do

all this stuff.

And I was like, ah, that's.

That's what I want to do.

And from that point on, I was
like, all right, well, I'm gonna

go down that route.

And then the act flying avenue
in the beginning was like, whoa.

It's kind of like aerobatics.

You get to do high banking,
low flying kind of stuff.

But yeah, that was.

That's really what was sort of
wasn't anything to do with.

You know, back then they
didn't have.

This has been 2005, 2006.

So they didn't have the
workshops like, they do.

Not the STEM type stuff now.

They had stem.

It was more of like, fabric
and mechanical side.

It wasn't this whole network
of education and say, you know, airline

advertising.

It was just.

Just an air show at that point.

Yeah.

And was there any, like,
performance in particular you mentioned

A couple names.

Well, there's like any one
person you can single out that you're

like, oh, dude, that's awesome.

I want to do that.

Yeah, I would say it was.

Michael Gulian's performance
was really like the eye opener, you

know, he.

I think then he was a green
and white plane, if I remember correctly.

He was.

He was flying and just the
noise and the smoke and everything.

Now that I do it, I couldn't
tell you which performance, how it

was.

I just remember just it was
captivating to watch a plane there,

what he could do.

So have you.

Have you gotten in touch with
him at all?

Have you.

You like.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know, we.

We messaged.

He was kind of a helper, me getting.

Getting my sack card, my.

My.

My air show card, as well as
through the aerobatic contest scene,

you know, just through there.

So, no, I've definitely met
him in the future, so.

Love it.

Dude, that's awesome.

It's really cool to see kind
of like people that you've looked

up to someone that had such an
impact on your life and your career.

And with social media, with
Instagram, with email, you know,

much easy and accessible for
you to reach out to them.

And whether they reach.

Reach out back to you is a
different story.

But the fact that he took the
time to do that, it's pretty cool.

And just understand that,
like, hey, let me help out my, my

future, my future pilots.

I'm handing the cards down to you.

You know, Marco, one day maybe
someone's going to, maybe my kid

will look up and watch you at
Oshkosh one day, be like, I want

to fly.

You don't want to fly like
Marco, Trust me.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Yeah.

No, that's what I was pretty
cool about it, right?

You know, in my mind, they're stars.

You know, they're.

They're people that are doing something.

They're on an elevated platform.

Even though they're all human, they're.

They're in the general eye.

They're on an elevated
platform that you look up to.

And you know, the fact that
somebody like me, who wasn't really.

I didn't, I didn't have, when
I first originally reached out to

him, I didn't have anything.

I had like a little small
biplane and that was really it.

But every.

When I asked him the
questions, he didn't hesitate to

answer.

And there wasn't nothing right away.

But, you know, he took his
time out of his day who, you know,

just super busy and was able
to answer back.

And, you know, the last year
with, with stuff going on for me,

with, you know, getting to the
air show stuff as well as that, you

know, if I had questions,
doesn't hesitate to reach out.

And so, you know, just nice to
reach out to people and they'll,

you know, if they see
something, they'll reply back.

And that's what's, that's
what's great about those guys is

absolutely.

And aviation in general is,
you know, such a small knit group

of people that majority of the
time, if you reach out, somebody's

gonna try to help you out in
the right path.

100 totally agree.

Or the wrong path.

I don't know.

You gotta be careful, Neil.

Sorry, dude, second one already.

We're six minutes, eight
minutes in, buddy.

Get used to it.

We.

So you, you mentioned that a
couple days later you started your

training.

Your dad was in general aviation.

So was he pretty excited, do
you think?

This was kind of in the back
of his mind to be like, hey, let

me Get Marco here.

Eventually got there.

He was trying to kind of nudge
you in that situation, or was he

just kind of letting it come
to you and see what, what came out

of it?

He never nudged me in any way
I would.

He was, he was definitely
like, hey, this is a really cool

career.

And I mean, I kind of knew it
was a cool career because he used

to have VHS tapes all over the
house of Just Plains.

If people that remember what a
VHS tape is.

I don't know how all the
audience is here, but he used to

have this VHS tape of a Cafe
Pac 7 4.

I used to watch that religiously.

And so that was kind of like
that initial.

Like, hey, you should go look
at these kind of things.

Like, this is a really cool thing.

You can go see the world, go
find these cool planes, this, that,

the other.

So the, the nudge wasn't like,
hey, you need to go do this.

This is the career path.

Because I kind of did my
private pilot in high school and

then did my instrument a
little after high school.

And then I didn't really do
anything in aviation for I went,

I guess I went, became a CFI
and then I took like a six, seven

year break from it and just
did, just worked with their company

and you know, I wasn't even
going to do aviation for six years.

I was just going to go run my
own business.

Airline wasn't even a thing in
my mind at that time or being a pilot

in general.

So, yeah, I think the.

I don't think he ever had a
push in it, which he was always good

about.

You know, he just let things
go as they were.

So, so when you say like
airline wasn't on your mind, even

being a pilot wasn't on your mind.

What was your goal then?

So you're starting your training.

Obviously you know, you
wanted, you loved aerobatics, but

starting your own business was
the idea to, to make your own money

and then fly for fun on the
side and do aerobatics on the side

rather than maybe have being
an airline pilot as your source of

income or flying as being your
main source income.

I guess I should backstate
that little, say a little bit.

So when I was in high school
and I got my ratings, initially that

was kind of an avenue.

It was like, okay, I do want
to be a pilot.

And then I went to college and
kind of carried on.

And then 2009, 2010 time,
everything started to downturn.

Yeah.

Bad time to want to be a pilot.

Yeah, I know, exactly right.

People don't.

People now it's like back then
it was like, you know, I think I

was like 11.20 an hour for an
instructor rating, like being an

instructor.

And so I was like, I am not
going to get paid.

This.

This is a waste of time.

I had all my ratings and my
family business is seafood trade.

And so we kind of had a unique
business in that avenue.

And so I was like, you know what?

Screw it.

Like I'm just gonna go and go
and do that.

And.

Yeah.

So my whole plan, you know, when.

Up until about 2016, prior to
that, from probably 2010 to 2016,

wasn't even to be a pilot anymore.

It was just I was going to be
a seafood fly on my own side.

I was, you know, doing
aerobatics and then I was hauling

seafood, tuna spotting with my
own planes and.

Yeah.

So there was no idea what were
you doing.

I had a Cessna 150 and
basically just went offshore and

coast of Maine and flew.

We would just go around
looking for tuna in the ground.

And in Maine you can fish, rod
and reel for tuna and then you can

do what's harpooning.

So people sit on the front of
a boat and they harpoon for tuna.

And I would be up there in the
150I owned and we would just.

Basically I would go out there
a couple hours, like an hour ish.

Before, during a certain time
of between tides and day.

And the tuna will come up to
the surface to try and increase the

metabolite metabolism.

And I'll go out and find them
in certain areas that I know they're

going to be fishing near.

Yeah.

And basically just guide them in.

So.

And then your whole job is to
tell them boat links, you know, you

know, turn starboard, port,
whatever it is.

And so you'll say you're 10
boat links, nine both link, eight

boat links.

And then you kind of have to
keep an eye on the fish and the guy

up on the bow and once he kind
of pops his harpoon over, then you

have.

That tells you that he sees
the fish himself.

So once he sees it, you know,
you just go quiet and.

And then at that point your
whole focus is to see the.

To watch the fish because if
they miss, the tuna will dive, but

they will normally not be able
to see them.

But you can see sometimes out
there, 70ft I would assume underwater.

So you can see them die
sometimes and then swim around and

form back up.

Generally they're in like I
call them pods, but I don't know

what they technically call
them, but they're Kind of like four

to eight deep maybe.

I never saw anything bigger
than that, but it was pretty cool.

That was a lot of fun.

I was like 20, 21, 22 at the
time, eating subway sandwiches, swimming

off the.

Flying off the coast of Maine,
just flying like, you know, I was

flying four hours every day.

Every day in the summer.

It's a good way to build
something great.

Yeah, it was a great way.

And that's where I was in that
time frame.

I had like 300 ish hours.

So I was in that whole.

I needed to build time, but I
didn't want to be an instructor.

And so I had the ability to
buy my own plane and ended up just

going down the avenue with the
seafood trade and.

Yeah.

Was this your own business or
did you work for someone else doing

this?

No, no, it was my own.

My own stuff.

Yeah.

So I was.

I was really fortunate.

Yeah.

I say I was actually spoiled, realistically.

So when we got to the point
where I had to get flight time, my

parents, you know, we had the
business and the flight school went

in, I think it was like,
people are gonna be crazy about it

now, but I think to get like
that leap from instrument to commercial,

so another 200, I think it was
like $26,000 at that time.

I'm sure it costs a lot more now.

But we just kind of looked and
was like, well, that's kind of a

waste of money.

We don't get the money back.

So we're like, well, you know what?

We found Cessna 150 at low
time on it, you know, wasn't pretty

as inside, but it had a really
cool paint scheme.

Outside, it was a whole
Piedmont scheme.

So it was pretty neat.

And then bought that.

And then I just kind of built
time that way.

And then when I started
saying, hey, like, I'm just gonna

do my own business flying, you
know, I eventually took that over

from them and then.

Yeah, and then I only.

I only did that for three
summers, but I think I got, like,

Gosh, I don't know.

Something.

I got like over a thousand
hours over three summers doing that.

So is this something that was
commonly done already?

Like, was this already, like,
for years?

Oh, yeah.

So, like, flight schools do
this, People up in Maine?

No, no, not flight schools.

It's normally.

Normally independent people.

So, yeah, normally it's like
independents that do it or something

like that.

Because it's not.

It's not like a.

It's not done a lot, and
that's a lot.

There's not like a full Time
thing for it.

And most of the people,
because of if just how the fishing

industry is, it's very like
Nick tight.

And when somebody comes in
tuna spots, you're basically giving

somebody your fishing grounds.

So there's a big trust side.

And I was already buying and
selling fish from these guys overseas

and around the US So we'd
already had this trust.

And so they were like, you
know what, let's, let's do some tuna

spotting and stuff like that.

So this is why I love doing this.

It's just cuz like when did
you ever talk to someone?

I mean, it is funny though, I
did talk to someone very early on

the podcast.

I mean like five or six
episodes in.

Justin Zeller, he was Carl's
bad pilot.

We used to go back and forth
all the time.

But he also flew off the coast
and he was doing fish spotting and

stuff like that camera, what
kind of plane he did in.

And not to the extent that you
did it where you were very involved

in the fish business.

I don't really remember how he
got involved.

Should probably go back and listen.

But it's so crazy just the way
that people can build their time,

the way that people can just
enjoy flying.

Like you could have made a
career out of that probably.

You could have started a
little business.

You probably could have had
people in Maine, you probably could

have had people in the south done.

It's all over the place, right?

The Bahamas, whatever it may
be to do this.

And it could have been a very
good, lucrative business.

I mean, I don't know if
lucrative is the right word, but

it could have provided income
for you, right?

It could have paid the bills.

It could have done a lot of
things to fund the lifestyle that

you would like when most
people, when they see an airline

pilot, they automatically
think military or CFI or part 61,

part 141, like those kind of
flight schools.

Not necessarily thinking about
fish spotting or tuna spotting, where

the seafood you ate was
probably from Marco finding a tuna

up in the guy, which is wild
to me.

The fact, I mean, talk about
just like coordination too.

And what it almost sounded
like when you're explaining it.

You sound like a NASCAR spotter.

Like, you sound like someone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The cooks under like, all
right, you got on your right.

You got two car legs ahead.

Yeah, launch the missiles.

No, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

And it's a pump.

It's a.

I mean it's an adrenaline rush too.

Like when you see them hit the
fish and then you see all the splashing

you know they've got them.

You're like, yeah, we got one.

But then, you know, the issue
with the two is you're talking on

a VHF frequency.

And so every, every other week
we were creating new coordinates

so we'd have like alpha spot
for spot one to one two.

Or you'd be like, all right,
I'm going to fish Alpha 10 today,

or I'm going to fish Charlie 3.

Because what would happen is
people learn your coordinates, right?

You are offshore and you can
see a plane circling for miles and

miles away.

You'll hear it.

And you know if you circle
tight, they know that there's a fish

there.

So all these boats start
coming to that area.

So you have to do these really
big sweeping patterns just kind of

to see where you're at.

Because once you find the
fish, right, your instincts like,

oh, I'm going to circle right
here and find them.

But you can't do that.

You got to like, do these big
passes to try and.

Because everybody can see out there.

Once you get out there, you'd be.

There's tons of boats out there.

But yeah, it's, yeah, it's a,
it's a totally different like, avenue

than what I was used to.

And I was just ga flying and
doing a few aerobatics.

And I get out there and yeah,
people are, people are trying to

scramble your freak, your,
your radio.

So when you try to make a
call, they'll hold the call button.

So that way you, they, you,
you can't, they can't hear you as

you're doing it.

I mean, it's, it's incredible
what some people do out there.

But again, you know, they're
catching 200 to, I don't know, 600

pound tuna can be anywhere
from a, you know, five, $6,000 payday

to a 20 grand payday.

Right?

So, you know.

Yeah, for them it's a big thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

How high would you be flying
and how far offshore would you be

flying?

So anywhere from 4 or 500ft,
upwards of a thousand, and then close

up to like 40 miles, depending
on the area.

We were, we were out at so
deadliest time with us it was getting

to the fishing grounds because
Gulf of Maine, you're only worried

about like, I guess you're not
really worried about sharks or anything

out there because water's so cold.

It's just hypothermia.

I mean, the, the, the water's
still like in the 50s and 60s.

And then once you get out to
the fishing grounds, I think it's

in like the upper 60s or 70s.

But getting out there is the
most dangerous part because there's

not a lot of boats once you
get out to the fishing grounds.

I mean, all you gotta do is
survive this plane crash.

So.

I love how you say that.

All you have to do is survive
a plane crash and you'll be all right.

Oh.

Oh, thank you, Marco.

Yeah, yeah, good to know.

And then you got 10 minutes to
survive hypothermia and hope that

you.

Yeah, I know exactly right.

Oh, yeah, that's all I got.

I got my meatball sub, my subway.

I'm okay.

You turned out happy.

Did that ever creep through
your mind?

I mean, like, when you think
about it now, I'm sure there's times

you're like, wow.

I mean, yeah, I had fun, but,
like, I don't know if I'd ever want

to fly a 150, 500ft, 40 miles
off the water, you know, like that.

Just like all the time.

I would never do it again.

I always say I'm glad I was
like 21, 22 at that time because

Wife and kids now.

Oh, heck no.

Like, you won't.

Yeah, you won't catch me doing
that again with that.

Did you have any kind of
moments where you're like, the engine

was starting to do and you're
like, we need to go back, or like,

oh, no.

I never had a moment with the engine.

The worst one I had was coming
back in.

I didn't really.

It's like my third or fourth
time in Maine.

The people that live up there
know about, but they have, like crazy

fog roll in.

I mean, it just rolls in out
of nowhere.

So you could be on the fishing
grounds and there's no fog.

And Maine.

The coast of Maine isn't so bad.

But then, like, as you're
coming in, all of a sudden you're

flying over all this fog and
it rolls into there, like in, you

know, less than an hour.

I can do it.

So, yeah, for.

For like a reference had.

I would normally would land in
Kenny Bunkport.

And that's really the plane at.

But I had to go to.

Gosh, what is it?

I think it's.

I think it was Worcester.

It's kind of towards mass.

And that area was like the
closest place I could get to where

they.

Spell it like Worcester, but
it's actually called Worcester.

Yeah, Worcester.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I flew part one up through.

I flew a single pilot freight
in a PC 12 in a caravan.

That's how I build most.

We were doing one Trip from
Palm beach up to Providence, Rhode

island, and very similar to
what you're talking about.

All of a sudden all this fog
rolls in and everything's getting

socked in.

We can't.

It's a 135 trip.

So, you know, the men's are,
we cannot start the approach.

We can't even go on the approach.

And the only airport that had
any kind of visibility was Worcester,

so I had to divert to
Worcester as well.

And when I got there, they're
like, this is weird because usually

we're the most fogged in out
of everyone.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

They're like, I don't know how
you got here.

It's like, well, it's clear
here now, but yeah.

So it's kind of funny that
both have stories about Worcester.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was just like the one
fraction of the part.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was living in Worcester,
Ohio at the time, so that even threw

me off even more.

When I saw how they spelled.

I was like, that's not how you
spell it.

Like, I understand that you're
different, but, like, it's cool.

So you're flying a 150.

You are.

You're helping people catch tuna.

You live in the main life.

Did you enjoy living up in the Northeast?

I gu.

Or up in the New England area?

I was really lucky.

I only did summer up there, so
I always said if I had the off, if,

you know, now if.

If I have the opportunity to
have like a summer house up there,

I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Maine in the summer?

Yeah, Maine in the summer is
like no other.

I mean, the.

The weather's beautiful, the.

The lakes are great, the water
temperature is great.

It's just such a great area.

You can be on the coast, go
swim, surf, and then hour and a half

later, you can go hike it in
the mountains.

So, yeah, I.

Man, yeah, it's such a.

Such a beautiful area.

Is that probably the top place?

Like, I mean, for me, it's
Jackson, Wyoming.

I'd go there any day if I
could afford it.

Kind of like you.

That's where I would go.

But is that your place that
you would go to, be the main area?

Oh, man, I don't know.

You know, I don't really know.

I love where I live now.

Honestly, I hate this.

Hey, I know this guy's counts
sign account or kind of sounds cheesy

saying it, but.

Yeah, I mean, I love where I
live now.

I mean, I don't think I would
love to live there permanently because

I Don't want to deal with the winners.

Yeah.

So that's like you get about two.

Months of good time up there.

Yeah, exactly.

Right.

Like so no, if anyone, if
anyone's on Instagram, you can find,

you know, George Dunn flew at
the company.

We flew out.

Yeah, yeah, I know, right?

Their place in the winter.

Yeah.

You ever want to follow and
see what main life is like, you can

follow weekends.

You, you can follow George.

I want to see a Mainet.

Yeah, right.

He was up there.

He was up there in the hot tub.

It was like negative three degrees.

Like, dude, you're gonna
freeze when you get back.

And he's like, ah, it's main life.

He just lived in the hot tub
the rest of the night until it warmed

up.

Yeah.

Came out of prune.

So what came next?

So you mentioned that you had
a ton of hours.

You, I mean, not a ton, but
you got a good thousand hours.

You started around 300.

So you had 1300 hours in this
time frame of flying, of doing this.

What was going through your
mind in a career?

Because it sounds like from
the beginning you weren't sure and

weren't really interested in
the airline lifestyle.

But as we all know right now
you are a major airline pilot.

So something changed.

But was that kind of the time?

So, yeah, so I was doing the
kind of the self business and my

mom and dad owned a seafood business.

So I kind of got into that
very, very heavily involved in that.

And we, we were kind of
specialized and with what we did

and I just was like, you know
what, I'm just gonna go full throttle

with the business.

You know, they, I had a
beautiful life growing up.

So, you know, and they,
they've had a great life.

So I didn't see any reason
that, yeah, career wise was there

and I was enjoying what I was
doing at the time and you know, my

young 20s and stuff like that.

And so we set up, we would do
live seafood hauling with tractor

trailers and ship live seafood
overseas to Belgium, Asia or Europe

and Asia.

And I ended up taking that
full on, head on.

And so I was able to sell the
150 and we bought a Cessna Cardo

and I kept flying.

And I was truck driving mainly
at the time, selling seafood, truck

driving and then had a car
know that we would go down to Florida

and I was still going up to
Maine, but wasn't doing tuna spotting

with it.

I was doing other things and
we're going to Florida.

We would set up these fish
farms and stuff like that and then

doing a bit of GA still on the
side, and then cows full throttle

with that.

That eventually led into
hauling lobsters.

So we took kind of a contract
locally over here through the military

that were for lobsters.

And then some places down in
Florida that needed lobsters.

And we grew pretty big with
the trucks and trailers, so the time

needed to be in Florida wasn't
really helpful.

So the Cardinal wasn't cutting
anymore for load and flight time.

So we ended up upgrading to a 210.

And then this was kind of
circa 20, like 2013, kind of around

that time frame, 2013, 2014.

And was doing that, doing that.

And then we kind of got hit
with some regulations that really

killed our exporting business
and, you know, went from.

They probably killed 80 of our
income on that side of the industry.

So.

And it was just primarily due to.

There was importing and
exporting acts that got involved

with the European Union and Asia.

And so it basically killed the.

The wild fish side of that we
were doing out of America.

So.

And it exploded the farm race
in Europe, which we had no.

We had no business in.

So it kind of just killed us a lot.

So.

And at the time, it wasn't so bad.

In the next, like, kind of
year or two, I was still flying a

lot of GA I still knew, had
buzz that were kind of in the airlines.

And that was kind of sparking.

I was still going to Oshkosh
in 2014, 2015.

Thing, I think is when they
started doing the university 10 tent.

Not.

Not the university, the.

The career tent.

So I was there one year and
kind of went there and was kind of

seeing like, oh, okay, like that.

That's pretty neat, like what
they're doing and stuff.

And I think kind of saw my
wife now who we had started dating.

I was a stepdad with them.

And then that kind of really
opened my eyes kind of in mid-20s.

Like, okay, I have this life
and my parents have this life, but

then I have airline and
friends who had their life.

And they were near though my
parents age.

And I was like, well, do I
want this life to that age or do

I want this life?

And so when the wife, you
know, fiance and the kid and everything

kind of came around, it was
like, I don't think this is the best

life for me.

The fish life.

Yeah.

You know, when that was like
the hardest night of my life, I think

I sat on that thing for like a
month trying to.

Before I can muster up the
courage to tell my dad, like, hey,

I don't want to do this anymore.

I Love you.

But this is because, you know,
it's his baby.

He built it from the ground up.

You know, he has, he has.

No, he's kind of left school
in Holland and like in middle school

and just built his own
businesses and he loves this thing

and it was kind of like, hey,
your business is that good.

I don't even like it.

I don't want to do it.

So it's kind of telling your
dad, like you don't even like his

own stuff.

But man.

So I think I went and I drove
down there like middle, like it was

like 9:00 at night to their
house, like, like 20 minutes away.

And yeah, I like sat in the
room like, hey man, I don't wanna.

And then I just.

Bald crying, couldn't even say
anything else.

I was just so, so like sad
about it.

And he just gave me a big hug
and he's like, I'm happy for you,

man.

He's like, go on it full force.

He's like, you're gonna live a
much better life.

And I'm.

And he is right at the end of
the day, you know, I was.

We were awarded a lot more
opportunities than they were growing

up.

But yeah, so that's kind of
how that whole transition phase was

what I wanted when I was 18
was different than I wanted when

I was 21.

And you know, as everybody,
every, every relationship will say,

like, when you meet somebody,
they change you.

Sometimes it's really good,
sometimes for the worst.

Mine was for the best.

And you know, that's what kind
of pivoted in my mind to saying like,

okay, now I need to see this avenue.

So that went kind of pushed me
into like my first, I call it, I

always call it my big boy job.

Because all the other jobs
were just fun and I made them myself.

And I was finding little
piston, little piston planes around,

but you know, which is with
transit was the first one.

So.

So as someone who has seen
kind of like a different industry,

a different way of making
money, of having, like you said,

you can make a good life, you
can, you can do.

I've always been told, and
I've always kind of thought that

being a pilot eventually,
right, like you and I are both very

junior where we are short
going life.

We're not around as much as we
would want to be and as much as our

family would like us to be.

But in the grand scheme of
things, I've always kind of been

under the idea that there's
nothing else that you can do where

you can make as much money as
you can as an air, as a pilot and

be home as much as.

Well, like I said, that's down
the road.

Right.

Like, it's like when you see
these, these older pilots that are

working two or three trips a
month and they're, and they're doing

well and they're making a ton
of money.

Would you agree with that?

As someone who has seen, you
know, another way that someone can

make a living.

Were you gone more in the
fishing side of things or do you

think you'll.

Sure.

Eventually you'll be home more
being an airline pilot?

Way home.

I'm home way more now.

Yeah.

If people, if no one's ever
ran a business or started a business,

entrepreneurship stocks in the
beginning, like you, these guys think

it's all glory and fame.

That's like, they are some of
the hardest working people ever met.

Because it's a constant grind.

Right?

You decide your life, you
decide your outcome.

And it's such a big burden
too, because you're not, not worried

about yourself if you've got.

We had 10 employees, right.

You're worried about their,
their life, their kids, their outcome,

everything else.

And so, yeah, I mean, the life
now is much more relaxing.

You know, in the beginning, my
dad, my dad couldn't believe.

What do you mean you don't
have to go to work?

You have five days off.

You have five days off.

You can work.

Yeah, you can't.

Well, like, you can work
because as an entrepreneur, like

you're working every day like that.

There's always something you
can do.

The fact that you can just get
off the flight, get to the house,

shut the door, shut the phone
off, throw the bag away for whatever,

five, four or five days, and
then show up the next day and be

like, all right, I'm ready to go.

And act like nothing happened.

I mean, it's literally what
you're doing.

You're acting like nothing
happened for the week.

And, and you know, it's just,
yeah, it's just a mind blowing concept

to him to be able to just go
to work and come home and not do

anything.

That's what I love about it.

Now it's just as like with a
family, you know, it's just nice

to.

When you get done, your time's
done and your time's dedicated family.

You know, as, as the, when we
were on the visit, it was never like

that.

You.

I could be at dinner and get a
call in 30 minutes, I'm out the door

driving a truck from North
Carolina to New York Toronto, Florida,

Texas.

I mean, you could, it was
just, just, you know, you're always,

you're always doing something
at 4am you're on the phone with somebody

overseas trying to figure out
a pricing on fish.

Like there's always something
going on.

It's always an emergency, right?

Yeah, always.

There always is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And nothing happens.

Quick and then.

Yeah, yeah.

With I guess one thing before
we move on from the fishing.

Just because it's so interesting.

Interesting to me as someone
that's been in that business, you

know, there's two ways to look
at this.

One, do you ever eat airport sushi?

Like, because you know where
stuff comes from, you know, like,

all right, this manufacturer
is definitely getting this from them.

Or this is happening from here.

It's like, do you, do you ever
eat airport sushi at all?

Or you're like, absolutely not
now, you.

Know, I sushi, I am, I am not
picky with food.

The only thing I just don't
eat is tilapia.

And I hate saying it because
that is like 90% of our business

is like tilapia.

That's what we do.

But yeah, yeah, I, I just
don't like tilapia.

I set up too many farms and
watch them, raise them and, and it's

just not something that as a
word of wise, I would just stay away

from tilapia.

That's hilarious as that's.

Yeah.

I mean, most stuff is most
seafood, like your bluefin, your

yellowfin tuna, I mean it's
all wild caught.

I mean, even if it's farm
raised, like this pen.

Farm raised.

So they raise it in pens offshore.

So it's still kind of like the same.

It's still in a natural habitat.

But like your salmon, your
artificial crab, like that's no different

than eating, no offense, chick
fil a chicken, it's the same stuff.

So.

Yeah.

So you don't have any issue
with like eating crab in Phoenix,

Arizona or eating like, I
mean, you're not gonna.

See me going to a sushi joint
in Iowa.

What do we need to avoid here?

I don't eat fish.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

For east of the Mississippi,
I'll start eating sushi for west

of the Mississippi.

Then maybe I'll think about
rethink it.

Until you get to like Seattle
where they're probably flying it.

Yeah.

Then I'll be okay then.

Yeah, yeah.

Then once we get past near the
Rockies, we can start going back

to Sweden.

It's like you're in Memphis.

Are you going to eat the
freshly caught fish in the Mississippi

River?

Probably not.

You know, catfish.

Yeah.

You do catfish, right?

Yeah, there you go.

Good point.

But yeah, so you, you're kind
of deciding and realizing that, you

know, whether your, your wife
now was telling you, hey, like, you

have these hours, you have the
ability to go do something that's

pretty cool and can afford us
a good life that we want to live.

What time frame was that, like
in the grand scheme of things?

Just so we know, because you
mentioned 2008, 2010, terrible time,

whole industry.

I mean, when I started
training in 2010, I had multiple

people come up to me and be
like, do not be a pilot.

Do not do this, do literally anything.

And I was like, okay, this is
the first thing I found that I liked

after I realized I'm not going
to like, I don't really want to do

anything else.

So here we go.

What was the timeline for you
right now?

Yeah, so it would have been 2015.

Like that was like around 2015
was kind of like, okay, I'm going

to go be pilot, you know, full time.

So the only thing I didn't
have was a multi engine.

Had everything else, just
didn't have a multi engine.

And so again, when locked out
like three days, whatever it was

that you do that with.

And then, and then of course I
was gonna try and fly for Mountain

Air cargo and then.

Really?

Yeah, I was gonna apply for
Mountain Air car because like, well,

I need, I need, I was like, I
need to get like, you know, just

some flying and that kind of stuff.

And then this is right when
everybody started doing like, oh,

you don't need an ATP, you
just need condition.

I was like, wait, what?

Like additional times, like,
what is that?

And so, so I went interviewed
at PSA Piedmont and, and ExpressJet

and they're all the same thing.

Like, you don't need an ATP,
we'll pay for your ATP.

You just gotta have 25 hours
of multi and all this stuff.

So I was like, ah, okay.

Like so.

So I just went and knocked out
my 25 hours of multi and then got

conditionals from all three of
those and ended up going trans dates

because it had at the time had
the Raleigh base.

So I was like, sweet, go to Raleigh.

Little did I know that's not
how it works when you go to training.

So get hired.

And I'm like, oh, sweet, do
the seniority skip.

You got hired and you could
postpone your class for six months

or I think it was, or three months.

So postpone getting the
training like, oh, everybody that

started when you originally
did your class was in Raleigh.

Now everybody's going to Denver.

Oh no.

Yeah, exactly.

So originally got based in
Denver for like one month and then

luckily I only had to do.

It was my OE month.

So I never actually had to
like do the.

I had something to go out
there, but it wasn't the true reserve

out there.

And then I was in St.

Louis and then, then I got to
Raleigh and then they shut Raleigh

down like one month after I
was in smokes.

You're like, so then I had to
go to Chicago and it was like, oh

my God.

So what's your now wife or
then wife or what was she thinking

through this?

Because she was like, hey, pushing.

She wasn't necessarily pushing
you but like, hey, let's go this

route.

But she's like, wow, trout blows.

What did we get ourselves into?

Or you know, kind of see the
end picture.

It's funny because like she,
she's so laid back.

You know, if you take the, the
fish days to this day it's like everything's

just elevated.

So like she's, she and you
know, she enjoys life.

She just gets to hang out with
the, you know, with the kids every

day.

She enjoys being a stay home
mom and that's how it's always been

with, with her and I kind of
since we've had the kids.

And she just, she was just
like, you kind of have to figure

it out.

We knew it was gonna suck but
then we're like.

I was like, oh man, this
really sucks.

Like I was, it was, it would
get, it would get to me before it

would get to her.

Like she'll be quiet.

She won't open her mouth.

She'll wait for me to do it
and if I open it then, then she knows

it's concerning like at that point.

And it was like two years in
the trance days and then I was like,

I came home and it was like I
kept getting junior manned and I

was, it was the way they were
Junior Manning.

I couldn't get home that night
on the normal flight.

So I was taking a FedEx flight
back and then I was getting into

raleigh at like 4am and I left
two hours from raleigh.

So I'm driving two hours from
raleigh back to the house.

But then because of I got
junior man, it was taking a day of

time off.

So Jenna, I was always had
like a day or two off and this went

on for like months.

And so there's like no end in
sight and I'm trying To think like,

okay, like, do I upgrade?

But then I have to go back to
Denver and then, like, do I find

another job?

Like, what do I do?

What do I do?

And I just got home one.

One morning and I, like, I got
home as she was getting up to take

one of the kids to daycare,
and I was like, I can't do this anymore.

I was like, I am so, like,
just so drained from it.

And.

Yeah.

So then at that point I was
like, just kind of trusting my gut

self, and I was like, all
right, I gotta find something different.

So.

So then, I mean, flying jobs
or just like anything?

Flying jobs?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I knew I was staying
in flying.

Like, it wasn't like going to
do a whole nother thing.

It was just like, like, I
gotta find a different company or

go somewhere, stuff like that.

So at the time, I had like,
the 121 I needed.

And at this time, everybody
was trying to get pic time.

So I was looking at Atlas for
a little bit.

I was like, oh, cool.

I go fly seven four and.

But then I kind of saw their
schedule and I was like, ah, that's

not gonna work.

Work, you know, not gonna work
for us.

So.

Right.

So then I was.

I was doing three weeks in the road.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Here's cologne.

Have fun.

So then I end up going to a
slide of Piper Meridian kind of on

the side, and one of the
companies I was working for, they

had just started up, and so
they were just looking for guys.

And he kind of knew me from a.

You know, earlier, and he was
like, well, come work for me and

I'll make you captain the.

The xl.

Xls.

I was like, sweet, dude.

Like, work for me.

Higher pay pic.

And it was 20, 30 minutes from
my house, home base.

I was like, I'm all in.

So then I went to the 135 world.

So I've left the 121 and went 135.

And then I spent like a year there.

And I was like, this is the
bee's knees.

I'm not doing 121 ever again.

I commute five minutes out
where my house is, work eight on

six off schedule.

My schedule all year.

Like, I was like, this
greatest gig ever.

Yeah.

And then I was kind of like,
oh, I need to.

The 135s can sometimes be
different, cannot be.

I'm not gonna call it not the
safest, but they're just the way

they do things.

You know, there's protections
you want in life for anybody.

Like ASAPS and stuff like
that, that AQP training, everybody

has bad days and, and you
know, just having those protections

is great.

So then having that at the
region, I was like, well, now I kind

of want to try to find that.

So, you know, that's when I
looked at going to one of the big

fractionals or something like that.

Because I wasn't interested in
the airlines at that point.

I was like, nah, I'm never
doing airlines.

Just stay, just stay.

So you were 100 turned off in
the airlines?

Yeah, yeah.

After that I was like, never again.

Yeah, forget that.

That regional experience.

I was like, dude, this is not
for me.

Even though that you knew
eventually it would get better if

you ever got to that point,
you're still like, there's no way.

I think I was too young and
too blind to see that at the time.

I think I was too young and
immature to see that.

So at the time I was, I think
I was just too narrow to be like,

this is all it's ever going to be.

Because at that time none of
my friends were moving.

Like everybody was just
staring at the regions.

It's so hard to go get a job anywhere.

Yeah.

You know, and so it was like,
you need a degree, you need a thousand

hours pic, you need to know
XYZ person, yada yada.

And I was like, you know, I
just kind of see, I didn't see the

end of the wall.

And I was like, you know,
like, this isn't just this, this

company and this area is for
me, you know, maybe a different regional

might have been.

But at that time that was not,
that wasn't for me.

So then you, you decide
fractional might be the life for

you.

Now really in my mind there's
2 fractionals.

Right.

Like there would be net jets
and there's flexjet.

Like those are really the only
two that I personally would ever

consider to work at.

We're not to speak on which
ones we did decide to work at, which

ones we didn't.

But was that kind of your game
plan as well or were you looking

at kind of any model of fractional?

No, I was.

Well, I mean it's going to be
the think of the way.

But you know, I was, I was
honestly just focused on union asap

aqp, like that was it.

You know, I think if anybody's
trying to make it a long term game

as well as do GA on the side,
I think that's like two big avenues.

There is ga and that's that
generally if you're just doing your

career, you know, you don't
really need to have all that stuff.

But if you do do ga on the
side, like it is nice to have that

backing to know that when
you're at work that all that protection's

there.

There's people that are gonna
be your voice when sometimes you're

not the wisest person to say voice.

You know, we're not all
lawyers and that's why hire lawyers.

But you know, I didn't want to
have to go to somebody and say, hey,

I want to pay raise.

Yeah.

Like that's just not me.

I'm just not that kind of person.

You just show up and fly, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I was like, I just want to fly.

And like, hey man, I can't pay anything.

I'm like, well, I need to get paid.

But you know, we'll talk about
next week.

I'll keep flying until you
decide to pay.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, no, I guess that was.

Kind of the whole thing.

I didn't have to worry about it.

So, yeah, so that was those
like, kind of the big focuses was

just like if I have asap, aqp,
all that kind of stuff.

I know that, you know, in the
span of a 40 year career, if I go

to show up at the simulator
one day and I have a bad day, it's

not going to kill me.

It's not going to be in the
world just going to have the bad

day, come back a couple weeks
later, redo it.

So.

Which is something that not a
lot of people really think about

the beginning, right?

I mean, obviously some people
are aware of what that means, but

being having foca, having
asap, having aqp, which is really

only airlines and very, very
certain companies, I think there

only is actually one other
company company that has it outside

of the 121 world could be
different now, but it was, it's something

that's just great to have
because like you said, the best pilots

have bad days, right?

I mean that you and I have
failed any training in that, that

aspect of training.

But it's just sometimes things
happen and it's nice to know that,

all right, well, you're not
gonna get fired, you're gonna get

placed on special tracking,
which you just do a little bit extra

training, you come back, you
train on it, you do it and then you

come back in six months
instead of a year and you just continue

on with your life and it's there.

And it's not something that
people really want to judge you for

or People are going to look
down on you for.

It's just.

All right, let's get some
extra training.

Let's get you right.

Yeah.

Which is good to know.

So, yeah.

So you are applying, you get
the job.

I think you were a couple
months after me.

Yeah, it was 2019.

Yeah, I was beginning of 2019, so.

Almost a full year after in 2018.

And then what's ironic is
where we are now, you were just a

couple months behind me there.

Well, yeah, yeah, I hear.

Yeah.

So I'm Marco.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

It's funny because like, if
you think about it, we never met

in person for like three years.

Yeah, we texted all the time because.

We'Re going through the same
stuff essentially.

Yeah, all the same stuff.

I mean, we texted for like two
years, never meeting each other,

sending gifts, joking on Neil
because we flew with him together.

We were both on the Latitude,
just so people know.

And then like ironically, we
meet up three years later and quote

unquote, we, we're like two
hours from each other.

So like, that's the other
cool, funny thing about it.

We're not that far.

Same state.

It's probably one road.

Take us right there.

Yeah, I, I decided to go from
the latitude, skip the upgrades and

go to the global because I
wanted to try international and you're

on vacation and I just so
happened to get a pop up trip to,

I think was it Cologne or.

It was Munich.

Munich.

We had a pop up trip in Munich
and that's where we meet up at for

the first time in person is
beers at a beer tent at like what

was like 10am?

10Am drinking beers in Germany
at 10am I mean you can't beat it,

right?

Like that's the drinkers and
bratwurst, baby.

Yeah.

What else are you gonna do?

I remember because I was so tired.

I think we got there the day
before and I was jet lagged.

And you're like, whoa, dude,
you look tired.

I think I have the picture.

I can pull it up and post it.

Oh yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

Holy smokes, bro.

Get some sleep.

I was like, yeah, yeah.

It was hilarious.

Yeah, that was wild.

That was really cool that happened.

And that's one of the cool
things about aviation and one of

the things, whenever I go
somewhere, I'm always either if I

have someone on Find my
friends, I'll look at their location

or I'll just like text them
like, hey, are you in Munich?

And I mean it hasn't happened
a ton of times, but Every once in

a while I'll be like, yeah,
I'm here too.

And it's like, oh, cool.

It's like, this is awesome.

So it's cool that that can happen.

Yeah.

I mean, let's do the whole
social media inside of it because

that's how I initially met you
was too the social media side of

it, because you were doing the
podcast and it was like the only,

like aviation podcast I was
listening to.

I mean, at the time, I think
there wasn't really many.

No, they were kind of the only one.

Yeah.

I mean, so that was the only
thing I was listening to because

you just had again, stories
from every walk of life that you

could like listen to.

Like, oh, that's kind of like.

Well, that's kind of like what
I'm going through.

Yeah, right.

Oh, maybe like, oh, that's
what they did.

And so.

Yeah.

And then of course, when, you
know, we found out we're all working

together and stuff like that,
I'm like, yeah, okay.

And then like just went from there.

Yeah.

Which is.

I appreciate you listening.

Thank you.

I want this to one episode
though, so don't, don't get hyped

up.

That's all that matters.

That's all that matters.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got one listener.

Yeah.

That's all I need, man.

That's all I need.

Justin here.

As a pilot, you know that the
more wealth you accumulate, the more

complex your financial
planning becomes.

From diversifying savings and
investments to proactively mitigating

tax liabilities.

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I'm inviting you to an essential

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powerful new webinar today.

That's allworthairline.com
pilotopilot and now back to today's

episode.

I want to talk a little bit
about your transition from a 121

regional lifestyle to the 91k lifestyle.

Yeah, I think it's going to be
pretty similar to me because when

I was in the fractional for
the first two years, it was the greatest

place I've ever been in my life.

Right.

Would you agree?

And I was, I've never been happier.

I never thought about going
anywhere else.

I was, this is what I'm gonna
do for the rest of my life.

When I flew with some crabby
captains, I just didn't understand

it.

I Was like, we have seven days
on, we have seven days off.

We're supposed to work as hard
as we want to work for those seven

days.

And on my seven days off, I
just relax and don't do anything

thing.

Yeah.

Are you very similar with that?

Yeah, no, it was spot on.

Yeah, I came from that 1:35.

I was 8, 6.

And I was like, man, I'm work
that 7 and 7.

I'm gonna get a whole like
extra day off and this, that, the

other.

And then it was like sweet,
like, I'm gonna know my schedule

all year.

I'll have like a true seven
days on a true seven days off.

Like.

And that's how it was.

And you know, I always tell
people like the coolest thing about

that schedule was every time
we went on vacation somewhere was

never on an actual vacation
fit did.

It was just on one of my.

Weeks off because 21 days.

But not even that.

You didn't need that.

You just had seven days off.

Oh, you're just talking about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would just.

On a seven days off, dummy
ticket, wherever the wife and kids

are going.

And you'd go on vacation
somewhere like that.

So that was the coolest thing
like at that time about was what

was like the huge eye opener
for me was it's just a lot of work

in seven days.

And then you understand why
these people are over.

Some of you guys apply with a
burnout after four or five days because

it's just it.

They're long days.

You're doing a lot.

And you know, when you're in
your 20s, you kind of.

You don't know what you want
in your 30s.

And like I said, life changes,
everything happens.

That's kind of where the
ballpark was for me, was I go to

the fractional.

I have my.

I had a stepson before then I
have my first kid.

So I don't really think in
much of it because he's a year and

two years old.

There's not much communication
going on there.

And then in the latter part of
my time there, it was, you know,

FaceTime.

It's always FaceTime.

It's always FaceTimes.

And then I'd be home and then,
you know, you'd enjoy the time home

and.

And I just know to myself like
day four, I was like, I was, I was

just ready, just ready to be done.

Day four and day five, it's
like you're pissed off day because

you're just like.

And then day six comes around,
you're getting all excited again.

Because you're just focused on
where my, where my, where my airline

is home from, where am I?

And then you see where your
airline and home from.

You're like ah, that's a two
leg airline.

I live in North Carolina, why
am I in California?

So yeah, so I did that and
like I kind of got, I got, I would

say roped into that mentality.

And so when I, when I upgraded
I ended up having like three months

off because it was kind of a
delay that was like the biggest eye

opening part of my life.

Because my kid did not care,
he didn't care what jet I flew, he

didn't care where I went.

They didn't care about anything.

All they saw was dad was home
to go swim, dad was home to go pick

him up and drop him off, us to
hang out with them, have chocolate

milk on the couch.

Just stupid things.

And so my wife and I, you know
I had friends that were at the major

I was at and, and I was just
kind of like inquire with them about

it and things like that.

Luckily I had people that were
really like their 10 year, 20 plus

years there and I had some
people that were a couple years there

and the guy actually that
introduced my wife and I works as

a major so he was like one of
the bigger helps with it because

he's been there a few years.

But you know with, with the
basin system and the call outs all

changing, you know, the long
call outs weren't really a thing

back then and now they are.

And I was just like, well I
can do a three day trip, be home

after three days.

I mean even if I go out and do
a three day trip, come home for a

day and have to go back out,
do a three day trip, well guess what,

I was still home three of
those nights to do something.

Yeah, so that was kind of like
the big eye opening thing.

Like no matter what as a pilot
you're missing stuff, you're always

going to miss stuff, you're
missing birthdays, you're missing

holidays.

Like that is a guarantee in life.

And I'm super lucky that my
wife and I have this great understanding.

Like we don't get wrapped up
on days, holidays, Christmas is the

big one we love, but
birthdays, stuff like that.

You know, I missed my son's
birthday last week but you know we

celebrated a few days before
and so you know, I think as they

get older they understand that.

But it was also pilot like you said.

And I think one thing to kind
of preface with this is, is just

to make sure everyone knows
that the company that we did work

out last, there's no like
shade toward it or anything.

It's just.

It didn't work out for our
lifestyle anymore.

Like exactly where I loved
working there more than anything.

And it wasn't necessarily anything.

They um, you can make great
money there if you want to work very

hard for that money.

Which is how that business is
set up where when you go to the airlines,

there's some more games you
can play.

You become senior, you have
the ability to fly less and work

less and you don't get the
last minute trip to Aspen because

you're the last, you're the
only person that can do it at the

airline related a bid.

Right.

And then you kind of do your
own thing.

Yeah, it's not even just.

I don't know if money is
always involved no matter what in

life because that's what
sometimes brings happiness no matter

what anybody says.

But the, it's the, the quality
of life while you're on the road.

The, the airline just provide
that top notch style.

When you get seniority, you
get the ability to have that.

There's so many guys I fly
with now just do day turns, show

up at 9 back home by like 6pm
like that's all they do is a day

turn.

Then when your kids go out of
the house, you can go on the overnight

to no, literally or whatever.

One dude I flew with, he's
home by like 2pm every day but he

starts at like 5am but his
wife and kids are asleep kids.

So he's back home and the kids
get dropped, get off school almost,

stuff like that.

So like the, the whole thing
with, with the fracture side is like

it's a cool gig.

Like you go to cool places, you.

Get to do like great airplanes.

You get to fly awesome
airplanes, advance, super safe, all

that avenue.

But once you get on the road,
you have no control over anything

anymore.

You're just there to show up
day one.

And some people like that,
that's cool like and all that stuff.

But the, the whole avenue is.

I guess it can be difficult.

You know you can.

Well you're gonna show at 8pm
we're gonna fly through the middle

of night to the, to somewhere.

And the middle night you get a
message like hey, actually we're

gonna, we're gonna go and
divert you pop into the ground, 11

hour clock, swap.

Damn.

Now you're trying to go out
and fly the next day and do stuff.

And like, you know, everybody
has a fatigue policy and stuff.

Like that.

But at an airline you've
controlled that whole month prior

at a fractional, you don't
know that's happening until 10 hours

prior.

And so will change.

Pardon?

Except.

And everything can still change.

Yeah.

And everything can still change.

Right.

And you could get that.

And all of a sudden they give
you 20 hours off.

Right.

And then you're like, okay,
well what am I supposed to do now?

Like, you know, things like that.

So and so that was kind of
like, that's like the whole, there's

two, the whole two big sides
of it.

It's just there's when you
get, when you get to the actual point,

there's just so much more life
control on and off between the two.

But again, you're still, you
know, with the airlines you're still

commuting.

You know, I drive two hours, I
still do one leg commute, stuff like

that.

But like now I've gotten
enough seniority where I do a four

day everything's or whatever I
do all my stuff is commutable day

in, day out.

So it's a true go in, true
come home.

Which is.

That's super nice.

Now it's not my case because I
have to go the night before and a

lot of times my trip and then
I had to come back the morning before.

I do want to ask.

So you and I, very similar case.

Like we, we were hired.

The expectations.

Expectations were that, you
know, things are going to move very

fast and then kind of things
paused, made us be on Short Call

and not in the base of our
choice for longer than we thought.

Yeah, it's not great, right?

No one's gonna lie to you and
say being junior and being Short

Call is fun.

What's fun about that is that
hopefully it ends fast and you get

to move on and do something
else in your life.

Unless you live in base like that.

Yeah, base.

Short Call by all means could
be the big greatest thing in the

world.

But living in Raleigh and
having to go to New York for me is

not necessarily my favorite thing.

It's just, it's another dis.

Especially when you go in on a
day that you're not working.

Right.

It's just like it really like
I'm missing time with my kid to do

this.

But you got to think about in
six months or a year, this isn't

going to be a thing for you anymore.

No.

Is that right?

Knowing that what we're going
through right now and what we just

came from.

Do you ever like regret it?

Do you ever think like, oh, wow.

Like it was kind of nice that,
you know, I never commuted on my

off time.

They always got me home on day
seven most of the time.

If not, they paid me a ton of
money and I never had to worry about

going anywhere the day before
I started.

Do you ever think about that?

So living the past is very bad.

So I don't, I don't think
about it.

That sense I think about, I
definitely compare.

I mean even though comparisons
is thief and joy, but no matter what

you compare, every human does it.

So but for me, they took my
base, my home base away.

I would have had to go to Raleigh.

And when I first started I was
doing Raleigh and still driving two

hours.

So I was still getting up at 3
in the morning, 2 in the morning

to then go catch a 5am flight
to then go fly all day.

Whereas like now if I do do a
3am wake up to go to go to work,

to go do reserve, I can just
hit pass all and decide like, hey,

if you really need me, you can
need me.

But if you don't, then I'm
gonna go ahead and go back and take

a nap and then like, right.

Set myself up for it to be
refreshed and be better, you know,

Be set up.

Yeah, you didn't have that
ability there, so.

No, I mean I don't, I don't
look at it like that.

I mean, I think I, I think
like saying like, oh, well, when

was that?

That, that's makes me like
miss it definitely.

Does it?

I mean commuting right from
five minutes down my row, that was,

that was nice.

But then what ended up
happening is tickets got too expensive

and commuting got to a too,
too much of a problem for them.

So then it became this point
of, well, actually we're just going

to send you to Raleigh.

So then at that point it
didn't matter anymore.

I didn't have it on base.

I was allowed to get a rental
car at 4 in the morning and drive

to Raleigh.

So I didn't, I didn't, I
didn't gain anything.

Like in that, I think in that
way, I don't think I, it didn't gain

anything.

Yeah, no.

And I remember, I can't
remember if it was after I applied

or maybe I think I got the
interview where I am now and I think

I text you right away.

It's like, hey dude, are you.

Oh, me too man.

Like planning or anything, but
it's like, hey man, I just did my

interview, I just got my CJO
and you're Like, I got an interview

next month.

And I was like, no.

Literally.

Yeah.

Why didn't we talk about this more?

I know, but it was.

Well, I think the whole thing
is nobody wants to say anything,

right?

Like, that's.

That's the whole thing.

Whole premise.

And it was like when the
classes were going on, right?

It was the same thing.

I was really supposed to be in
March, and then I was supposed to

be in April, and then I was
supposed to be in May.

And then they're like,
actually, we're not gonna do.

And then it was July.

No, we're not gonna do any
summer classes.

You're gonna be in September.

And then I was like, ah, no.

Like, I don't know if I can
sit here for that long.

Like, I already had senioritis.

And.

Yeah.

Everything was like, I'm just
ready to get out.

You got the CJo.

You're right.

I know, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so then.

And, I mean, I had mine, and
then I.

And then they were like,
actually, I don't think we're gonna

do anything, so you're gonna
be next year.

And I was like, oh, my God, no.

And then you text me and we're
like, hey, man, I heard they're,

like, doing a bunch of classes
at the end of May.

I got bumped up or whatever,
and I was like.

I was like, get on the waitlist.

Whatever you can do every day.

I.

I called the.

The lady that was doing my
recruiting stuff through.

I called her every day for
nine days until then.

She, like, when I picked up
the phone, I would call her, like,

10am and she was always super
nice about it.

Then I call her, and it's on
that ninth day.

She's like, actually, you know what?

I've got two classes for you.

And I was like, okay, sweet.

I'm gonna take this class.

You're like, thank you, thank
you, thank you.

Huge difference.

Especially when they didn't do
any classes for the whole.

I mean, like, you would just
be in class right now.

No, yeah, yeah, exactly.

I just.

I would just be.

I mean, seniority wise,
there's still a couple hundred below

me.

But, I mean, what.

But what happened in my life
last year that I got to have.

There's no way I would have
had that if I didn't start in that.

That one class.

You know, I was able to get my
air show rating.

You know, we had another kid.

I got to spend a lot of, like,
a lot of another month or two with

him.

You know, we just.

It was just like, such a great
Year, Absolutely.

For that.

Absolutely.

Man.

It's.

Yeah, it's been great for me.

I mean, like, we talked about
commuting, being junior.

Short call can kind of be a
burden the way you look at it.

But I mean, the flying itself
has been great.

We were.

I literally called you the
other day and we're like, 24 hours

in the Cayman Islands.

I was like, I just got off.

24.

24 hours in Barbados.

You're like, we only did one leg.

I only did one leg out there
and one leg back and a two day trip,

then four days of reserve.

And I was like, I can get used
to this.

This is.

I remember you texting me on
your first OE and you're like, dude,

it's 12 o'clock and I'm done.

Never happened.

I remember the first time I
had 16 hours off and I was like,

legit.

Like, like, oh my gosh, this
is amazing.

I've never had like on without
having to fatigue or out all the

stars aligning.

I've never had 16 hours off.

And I just, I honestly was
like, this is too much.

Like, I need to go, you know,
I was like, all right, I'm bored.

Let's go back.

But now it's 24 hours and
you're sitting there and you're like,

you know, this trip could be
like a 30 hour overnight.

I think I could use another
six hours.

But it's been great.

Before we go.

I know it's been about an hour.

I want to talk about aerobatic.

Yeah.

And I also want to talk about
a crazy story that you keep on hinting

at with me.

And then you said, oh, I'll
tell you when you're on the podcast.

Tell you four years we're on
the podcast.

I know, right?

Share it.

So I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna try to explain what happened.

I'm just gonna give it to you.

Yeah.

I'll just rat it out.

Yeah.

And rattle it out, man.

Because.

But I heard it's pretty wild.

Yeah.

So like I said, is air show pilot.

Always kind of of been one
that wanted to be one.

And so I got into aerobatics,
started a Citabria, then went to

a decathlon renting one.

And then.

And then when I made like my
first like big boy aircraft purchase,

I bought a pits S1S.

And so this is for people who,
if you have an accident on your record,

doesn't hinder you at all.

It's not a big deal.

Like, just be truthful and
honest with what happened.

Mine was pretty horrendous.

I had to parachute out of an aircraft.

So the control stick on a pits
is a center stick and the weld at

the bottom that holds all the
aileron usage ended up snapping in

flight after a few rolls.

And yeah, so it was about
2000ft ish where it happened.

And by the time I got out, it
was like 800ft.

Went to the water, was out
there for like 20ish minutes in the.

Under.

Under canopy.

Well, I went out under canopy,
they would call it.

But, you know, luck for me,
there was nothing bad that happened

to me.

It kind of cut my earlobes
from where the kind of canvas hat

came off.

And then I had some really bad
bruising and like a little cut in

my arm.

But yeah, it was just went to
the water.

Eventually the.

The boats came out and got me
out and then kind of had that.

You know, I thought that was
like the end of my career.

Like, I just started with
trans States and I was like, man,

they're like, I am gonna be.

This is gonna be my life.

And it was super cool.

Every time I applied, you
know, it was like, has anything ever

happened what ended up being
like, one of the worst parts of my

life has turned out to be the best.

Tell me about a time win story.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think the whole, that
whole story with the parachute, stuff

like that ended up turning
into this, like, I would say beautiful,

but it was just this great
educational point about, you know,

perseverance and, you know,
kind of coming back because, you

know, now I have my air show rating.

And at that time, I didn't
think I was ever going to be able

to fly air shows again or be
able to be an air show pilot because

I had wrecked the plane.

And as well as I didn't think
at that time, I was like, I just

ruined my chances for being a
full, you know, full major airline

pilot or being a pilot in a career.

And yeah, so it's all.

It's on YouTube.

You can search it up.

There's accidents on YouTube.

Yeah, I mean, it's like
Bystander got a video of me jumping

out and stuff like that.

So, yeah, It's.

It's on YouTube and stuff like that.

So.

Dang, dude.

November 27832.

You can look it up there or
you can just search my name and my

YouTube account should come up.

You know, you kind of scroll
down through it, it'll be on there.

But.

But yeah, it's a, it's a neat thing.

It was, it was just such a
life changing event that, you know,

which is kind of where you
talk about like the reserve stuff

of being like, oh, crap, this
like kind of sucks right now.

Dude.

Life, life happens.

And your time will come when
your time will come for something.

And yeah, I mean, we're all,
we're all in a blessed place to be

no matter what's going on.

So when you, when you were
flying, you know, you're pulling

GS, you're, you're doing
whatever movie you're doing, and

all of a sudden you turn to
the right or you turn to the left

after you pull back or push
down, whatever you were doing.

And all of a sudden, you know,
the stick just like comes in your

lap, like, and you look.

Disbelief.

Yeah, you're complete disbelief.

Because that's never something
that you would think would happen,

right.

In a million years of you
having to crash an airplane.

It's probably not.

Because jumping, jumping from
a plane is what disbelief is.

Like crashing a plane is
different because that becomes a

reality.

Like we're trained for.

You train for it from your
private pilot.

Right?

Engine failures, runaway
trends, times.

When did you ever train about
jumping out of a plane?

I mean, I've never done aerobatics.

Right.

Like we put.

Yeah, exactly.

You don't really think about that.

But like we, you know, the
only guys that do it are military.

Like, they're trained to do that.

I'm a civilian guy.

Like I, I wear a parachute, I
hop in my plane, I go do my aerobatics.

And we have that mentality
like, yo, something will happen.

This is how you get out.

But committing to the point of
being like, all right, I am pulling

the canopy open, I am
unlatching myself, I'm standing on

my seat and I'm jumping out of
this plane.

And then I'm gonna pull a D ring.

Like that is a.

And yeah, there's always this
age old argument where you can train,

you can train, you can train.

There's just some things you
can't train for.

And you can do all the
skydiving you want.

You can do all that stuff, you
know, in my opinion.

But your personal fight or
flight mode is going to get you out.

There's nothing that's gonna.

The trainer will put you in
the right path.

But the answer to say, like,
I'm gonna leave this plane, hope

that I don't smack my head on
something, hope they don't get clipped

by something.

You know, there's flying wires
back there that can slice you in

half in a second.

And the plane's moving at 180
something miles an hour.

Yeah.

So there's stuff that can just
kill you in a second.

So you're.

You're playing with luck and
luck and luck.

And if you watch the video.

Yeah, why not?

You got a lot going against
you in that moment.

Yeah, I know.

If.

When whoever watched the
video, seeing the video, there's

two seconds from when the
canopy opens to where the plane hits

the water.

So two seconds of hesitation
would have been dead.

I was gonna ask.

I mean, obviously there's a
startle effect like we all have seen.

Yeah.

1549, you know, Teterboro or
not Teterboro, LGA landing, the river.

Everyone's saying, why.

Why couldn't you just go to Teterboro?

And they could do it in the
sim when they had no startle effect,

but when they had to sit there
for 10 seconds or 50, whatever the

timeline was, maybe it was
like 30 seconds.

They couldn't make it to Tetra.

Bro.

You probability you didn't
have 30 seconds.

You had less than 30 seconds
between when the.

Bro.

When this.

When it snapped and when the
plane hit the water.

Yeah.

You had no time to.

You had no affordable time for
the startle effect.

Do you remember at all, like, dis.

Obviously you said disbelief,
like, oh, my gosh, this is happening

me.

Was it just immediate, you
know, seatbelt off, canopy out, jump

d ring in your mind, or did
you know 10 minutes for that all

to happen in your mind?

Yeah, I mean.

I mean, everything was less
than, like, I think, like a minute.

I mean, it sure is less than a minute.

It doesn't take long.

But the.

I was just saying, like,
everyone learns about it, and I probably

like invulnerability.

Right.

You get up and fly every time.

You think, like, well, then
you feel like something happened

to me, like, this is gonna
happen to me.

And, you know, when you're
flying a lot of aerobatics, you're

doing a lot of flying.

That.

That does play into you.

Like, it's your job to always
have that kind of back you to say,

like, this is what's gonna
happen when this goes on.

And for me, it was.

The stall effect was just like
it snaps and then it still kind of

moves.

And the plane's kind of like
slowly rolling like this.

And I'm like, what's going on?

So there's this false
sensation of the stick moving.

But then the biggest killer
was when it snapped.

It jammed the elevator, so I
couldn't move the elevator.

So then of Course, you know,
most people's natural reaction, right?

If it's like you get car
wreck, you turn your stereo down

for some reason, like everyone's.

Now traction has pulled
throttle back for some reason.

Is that.

So I started pulling the
throttle back.

I'm like, huh?

And then I'm playing with it a
bit for a couple seconds, and then

at that point, the plane just
kind of noses over and starts kind

of diving down because it
can't hold it any longer.

And the biggest, like,
telltale was you get startled, then

you come back into the zone
that you're in.

And when I hit the rudders and
the plane could completely move at

that point, I was like, okay,
it's not a spin.

I'm not in a spin.

I have no idea what's going
on, and I don't have time to react.

But what I do have is a
parachute and aircraft insurance,

and that's what that's there for.

Yeah.

You know, so.

And luckily, you know, we do aerobatics.

I do it over the smack dab in
the middle of an airport, either

over a farmland or over the water.

It's one of those three.

So, you know, thankfully,
because of how a lot of air battle

boxes and stuff, they're not
overpopulated areas, so we don't

have to have that back in the
mind that's like, oh, we might hit

somebody on the ground, Right?

Yeah, it's.

It was super.

Yeah.

Just a disbelief in the beginning.

But, you know, like I said, we
all train, right?

We all train to.

To get.

To bring.

To have the ability to bring
ourselves back into the moment, then

focus on what's supposed to
happen at hand.

So.

Well, that's one.

What was going through your
mind when you hit the water?

Like, when.

When you hit the water, you
came back up and you're just like,

all right, I'm alive.

Yeah.

Was it just a boat?

Was it just, like, so happy
that, like, all right, I'm alive.

This all worked out, like.

No, it definitely wasn't.

Yeah, I was not happy about it.

Came back up.

Yeah.

I came down and, like, started
throwing up because I swallowed so

much water going into the.

Yeah.

In there.

And I was trying to get up and
there's all the paracord around you

and stuff.

Stuff.

And where I.

Where I live and it happened.

That's Newburn, North Carolina.

The water you can see about,
like, that far.

That's about it.

And underwater, you can barely
see because it's all black, blackish

water.

Solid or murky water.

It came back up And I just
started between throwing up and screaming

because I'm just.

Just like.

I mean, people definitely saw it.

You're not gonna miss a plane
going into the water.

Like, it's definitely thing.

But of course, in your mind,
you're like, nobody.

Somebody said this.

Like, somebody help me.

So just screaming at the top
of my lungs, like, help, Help.

And then I'm trying to find
something I can float on because

I can't get my parachute off.

You know, the parachute
unclipped up here, but it was so

tight down there, I couldn't
get it off.

And so now I'm like, I gotta
find something to grab onto because

I was worried about, shoot,
dragging me under.

Luckily, the.

The water there doesn't move,
so it wouldn't.

It never.

It would have never dragged me under.

But at the time, you don't
think of that.

You're just like, well, I'm in
the water.

Parachute's gonna kill me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So then, like, I'm swimming
and swimming and kind of waiting,

and I find a piece of fabric.

And I'm like, oh, sweet.

There's a piece of fabric.

And you think like, well, a
plane crash.

Like, there's gonna be parts everywhere.

Well, my plane went straight
into the water and obliterated into,

like, a thousand.

I mean, well, not tens of
thousands of pieces of wood.

So there's.

I think, like, the biggest
piece of wood I have is, like, that

big.

Sweet.

Yeah.

I mean, there's nothing.

So I grab the fabric, and it's
just a piece of fabric.

I have nothing to think.

So I have to swim, like, kind
of wade.

And then I start seeing fuel everywhere.

And I'm like, oh, my God,
like, now this thing's gonna catch

fire.

But then I'm like, you know,
you're thinking all these worst case

scenario.

Like, I just jumped out of a plane.

I survived.

And then you're like, well,
crap, now I'm gonna drown.

Oh, no.

Now I'm gonna catch fire, right?

Like, nobody's gonna see me.

Then it's October.

You're like, oh, my God, now
I'm gonna die of hypothermia.

Like, so.

No.

So then I start screaming.

And then eventually I saw a.

I saw.

Yeah.

And then eventually you saw
the fire trucks, everything coming

down to the waterfront.

And then at that point, I was
like, all right, I just gotta kind

of wait here for 20 minutes.

So thankfully, I went to a
swim camp when I was a kid.

So there you go.

I had my band to tell me I
could swim for 10 minutes.

But I was an overachiever, and
I did it for 20 minutes out there.

So.

Dang, dude.

With a parachute attached to you.

I was trying to, you know,
there's nothing.

Yeah, there's no drag.

Like, the parachute didn't do anything.

That was, like, my whole concern.

But once I realized, like, the
parachute literally was not moving,

then I was like, ah, okay.

Like, then stolen factor kind of.

Kind of gets out.

But then, of course, then the
pain comes in.

Like, my legs hurt so bad.

And then, like, I can feel.

Like, I could feel the.

The slits in my ears from
where they.

They had cut.

So that's.

After all that kind of, like,
pumpness went away.

Then I was like, oh, my God.

The only thing I asked.

Never went to the hospital.

Never anything.

I just asked for a Tylenol,
and that was it when I got out.

And nobody would give me a
Tylenol because they wouldn't give

me one unless I got admitted
to the hospital.

You're like, come on, guys.

Yeah, I know.

So, like, a really good friend
of mine, he's a police officer.

He's a police officer here in
the local town, but he.

We're best buds now, but he.

He was a guy that went to his.

Back to his car.

I'll give you a Tylenol, man.

Got me one.

So you didn't go to the
hospital at all?

No, honestly, I.

I was.

I was flying two days later,
so I had to go to my brother's wedding.

And that was My brother's big
thing, was like, thanks for not dying

two days before my wedding.

But y.

No.

Oh, like three days later.

Yeah, like, three days later.

So, yeah, we.

Yeah, I flew like, three days
later after that.

That was, like, a big thing.

Just, I.

I made the mental decision,
like, just to go back up and fly

as quick as I could.

So.

So, yeah.

So, I mean, another kind of
similarity in our paths is.

I also.

Well, you're much more
dramatic than mine, to be honest

with you.

I wasn't.

I wasn't.

I mean, I was actually.

Yeah, there's.

Yours is definitely more.

You were stranded, though.

Well, he's like.

You were kind of, like, stranded.

Yeah, it was exactly.

I had somebody come get to me.

In the mountains of West Virginia.

I think, all in all, it took
search and rescue.

Probably took five or six
hours before a police officer or

fire trucks got to us.

Yeah.

So, I mean, like, if we didn't have.

And it was cold, too.

Like, it was very cold.

If it wasn't for kind of.

I mean, I don't have any
better way to explain it than the

mountain man of West Virginia
that was driving by, who came out

full beard.

Honestly, full beard.

To the point where I was like,
if I enter this house, they might,

like, eat me.

Like, I don't like how I was.

Oh, yeah, the eyes.

Like, I don't know.

I mean, obviously I'm joking, right?

Like, I'm super thankful.

It was.

It was.

Yeah.

But, yeah, you can laugh about
it now.

That's the whole part of it.

You have to laugh about it
because it's just so dramatic.

No, no, the whole thing is when.

You tell stories, like, trying
to have my first phone call to, like,

my wife or my dad, and no one
answered phone, so I was just leaving

voicemails.

I was like, hey, it's Justin.

I had a plane incident.

Like, I'm in the middle of
West Virginia.

Like, I'm okay.

I want everyone knowing I'm okay.

Like, I'm not injured at all,
but, like, I.

I don't know how I'm gonna get
out of here.

My wife, she was working
downtown, like, right where I was

at as a bartender.

And, you know, she even heard
all these fire trucks and everything

about.

She didn't think anything of
it, right?

And then she gets a call,
like, 30 minutes later, like, hey,

so I just need you to come
pick me up.

I.

My plane had to go in the
river, so she just thought, like,

I had, like, floated this
thing in and, like, lollygagged it

in there, and it.

Was sitting, which in its own
way is very scary.

But, no, you decided to not do
that route.

No.

And then, like, she comes out.

I've got one shoe on.

There's all these people
trying to interview me.

I still have, like, my
parachute over my backpack.

Trying to drag it because it
was so heavy.

I couldn't.

It was so hard to fold.

I couldn't even carry it.

I had to, like, drag it on the
floor behind me.

And it was just like.

And she's like, oh, my God,
what's happened to you?

And I was like, I went in the water.

I told you.

Yeah, yeah, I told you.

But of course, you know, like,
on the phone, like, the first thing

is, like, if you're calling
your wife, you're like, no, everything's

okay.

Yeah, it's all good.

Yes, I'll be home for five for dinner.

We're doing steaks, though.

Yeah, I'm still doing steaks.

What's funny about how you
just explained that, you know, you're

dragging a parachute made me
think of not Men in Black.

Independence Day with Will
Smith when he's dragging the alien

behind, like in the parachute.

Yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it's.

So we talked about.

You mentioned that if you have
an accident, if you have an incident.

I was lucky that the FAA came out.

They looked at the airplane.

We.

We landed.

It was me and my buddy.

I'm not gonna say his name.

I don't know if he really
wants to be attached to it at all.

But there's nothing wrong with.

Was actually 10 years ago, two
days ago.

So 10 years.

Every single day on the day
that it happened, we always text

each other and we always like,
say, hey, happy we almost died day.

Like all that.

We're bonded for life trauma buddies.

But we were talking about it
and I mean, elation when we land.

Right.

But we didn't.

FAA came out, they said
there's literally nowhere else you

could have landed.

It's not an investigation,
it's not an incident, it's not an

accident.

There's zero things that we're
going to look into for your paperwork,

for anything.

Great job.

That's all I did did.

Which is.

That's how mine is.

Mine's not on my record or anything.

But the whole pop.

The whole thing about me was the.

With the way social media and
technology is these days, like somebody

can do a Google search or pull
you up.

So I was like, you know what?

I'd rather me be the person to
tell the story than them ask me.

And again, like, if they're
trying to find something and they

pulls you up and then they're
like, well, why didn't he tell us

about it?

Now you instant look suspicious.

So even though it's not your
fault, but if you have nothing hidden,

nothing to hide.

Yep.

That's the same thing with.

With when you fail a checkride.

Right.

It's the same thing.

Checkride.

It's just they're not
necessarily worried about you failing

that checkride.

They want to see how you
respond with adversity, how you respond

to anything, because your
whole career is gonna be adversity

in the plane, everything.

Yeah.

But I wanted to agree with you.

The whole reason I started
talking about mine as well is because

it was like if I didn't get
back in an airplane relatively soon,

I would have never flown again.

Yeah.

Like the doubt.

Even the first time I got an airplane.

You know, like, I remember I
flew home on probably like a 145

or CRJ 200, whatever.

It was even like any power
adjustment that was like not Very

smooth.

I was like, oh, my gosh.

Like, I had to get over the
fear of something like that happening

again.

I mean, statistically, it
doesn't really matter.

Like, just because I had one
doesn't mean you can't have another.

But the idea of just that,
that can happen.

You got to get out of your mind.

You got to trust what you're
flying, and you got to trust yourself.

Yeah.

I mean, the first.

When I.

When that happened, it
happened doing three.

A little on rolls back to back
and stopping the stick.

When I bought my next
aerobatic plane, which is.

Ended up being about three
years later, the very first aerobatic

maneuver I did.

Was that exchange figure just
like, to test it out.

Be like, all right, let's see if.

Just be like, yo, get out of
your system.

Yeah, I could.

You know, because I was like,
it could happen again.

And I still think about every
time I fly her back, like, I still

think like, yo, these controls
can explode at some point.

Right?

But yeah, I mean, now I'm more settled.

Settled with it.

Everything like that.

Yeah.

That was the first thing I did
just to be like, get it out of your

system.

It's in the past.

Just move on.

Was your wife ever like,
you're never flying again?

You're done, you're going back?

Nah.

Yeah, I mean, she never.

She never was like, you're
never flying again.

You're never gonna do that again.

She knows.

It's like, that is my psychiatrist.

Aerobatics is my psychiatrist.

You know, we have.

I live five minutes from where
I practice at.

If, you know, I thought.

I know.

We don't.

I normally can't handle more
than like 15 minutes in the plane

because we do like, upwards of
nine to like, negative six GS.

And the way the plane flies
now, it's kind of a lot.

But yeah, I mean, I'm not
saying, like, that's who I want to

be the fight with in life, but
I just don't know myself about it.

Yeah, yeah, that's just.

It's my therapy.

It's.

It's just my way of like.

Like vent.

Venting, you know, my.

I guess venting my emotions sometimes.

And then it's also my way of
just expressing myself, which is,

you know, which is what I
enjoy with it.

So.

I mean, Senior, I've seen your
videos on Instagram.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, everyone laughs
about that.

And it's just my normal face.

Yeah, I don't know what it is.

I'm seeing your normal face
right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So as my wife always comments is.

It's just me taking, taking a crap.

My wife tells.

She always bashes on me on the
stuff about it.

That's how it should be, man.

No, it should be.

Yeah, yeah.

She humbles me, brings me back.

Someone's got to humble you.

I know how big your head can get.

Yeah.

As someone who's continuing
the aerobatic scene, as someone who

is continuing the major
airline life, talk a little bit about

successes you've had on the
aerobatic side.

We've talked pretty far about
how, you know, you've reached the

pinnacle, your pinnacle of
your career in the airline side.

Only thing different is
becoming a captain.

Flying widebody, you know,
that's kind of like as high as you

can go.

But talk about what you're
doing on the aerobatics, talk about

successes you've had where
you're at right now.

And if people ever want to see
you in air show or if they want to

be like, is that Marco?

How can they find you?

Yeah.

So, you know, I would say the
most successful thing I've had to

date was being a member of the
United States advanced aerobatic

team.

Because that was a.

Basically two years of just,
just going after it.

You know, I went, I was at a
fortunate to attend a team, one of

the team camps, previous team
camps, and I got done with it and

you know, I had a, we had a
coach there named Rob Holland who

was coaching and another guy
who invited me again, the power of

social media.

And another one of your people
that you interviewed, Alana Guayo

from.

He did an interview with him a
long time ago, a couple years ago.

So he, he kind of got me there
and I was like, man, this is fun.

Like there's like a mental
side to this.

There's like this constitute
of perfection.

And so that was like two years
of just, just going after it, going

after it.

And it's, it's a sport at the
end of the day, you know, you have

to, you don't have to be the
fittest person because I'm not.

But you have to be fit.

You have to be mentally there.

There's a whole bunch of
training involved, you know, there's

notes and, and yeah, so that
was like the pinnacle, I feel like

of making the team.

I got to compete at a world
championships in advance.

But although that was really
cool and like that's a super staple

to make the USA team, you have
to be one of the best in the United

States to even have the
Opportunity to then go to the world

championships.

Once you make the team, you're
guaranteed to be able to go to the

championships.

So you know I got, I got fifth
in the country with the plane.

It was the only four cylinder
aircraft I had a fifty thousand dollar

plane.

I was competing against planes
that were one hundred and eighty

to half a million dollars.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So you know it was just, it
was showing like it was a perfect

example of it's the pilot, not
the plane a lot of the time.

And then kind of going on from that.

You know, I still do
competition aerobatics.

You know.

This year we're getting really
ramped up with it.

Again it's the unlimited which
is the pinnacle of the, the U.S.

career competition.

So that's the highest category
you can compete in.

So you know I upgraded my
plane to.

It's called a Sukhoi SU31.

And so for this year it's kind
of the same thing.

It's just try to make the team.

You know, you got to be one of
the best top eight in the country

to make the team.

And then you're competing
against people who again are just.

Everybody has the same goal.

It's to be one of the best in
the US and then thankfully we have

the ability.

In 2026 the World Aerobatic
Championships is going to be in Batavia,

New York.

So if anybody is around, the
dates aren't announced yet I don't

think but it's probably gonna
be like late July, August.

But basically it's you know,
the top countries from around the

world.

I think we only have like 15
to 16 countries representing around

the world come compete and
yeah, so that, that with alongside

the air show stuff, you know,
last year I was able to finally get

my, my what we call the SAC
car to save an airbag competency.

And that's been a childhood
dream since I was like 12.

So.

So it's kind of just.

That's always been the goal in
aviation and to finally achieve it.

You know, there's the goals in
life that you have career wise, which

is the, you know, like the
major alliance stuff is cool.

But what's also nice since
that career has allowed me to then

achieve other dreams of mine
which has been this, this aerobatic

side of things.

Yeah.

And the coolest thing about it
is to keep doing it because I don't

have to stop it because of my
work, you know, still able to come

hometown with family, compete,
go to events, go do all this stuff.

So yeah, it's like now with
the, with the air trust stuff, you

know, this year's will be my,
my first year as inertial pilot.

So Sky High Expo currently is
my first air show booking which is

in Lewisburg, North Carolina,
just, just outside of Fayetteville.

Oh, nice.

So it's a three day fly in, so
it'll be two days of performance.

So it'll be on my website,
which is just marcobaoairshows.com

and.

Yeah, and so I'm looking
forward to booking a couple more.

So that's the first one.

We have another one scheduled
for September, but that one's 1st

of September.

We have another one in the
middle of September, one later in

November and then possibly one
in May that we're just trying to

finalize right now.

Love it, dude.

Yeah.

As one of my last questions,
just because I'm sure people want

to know, you know, some people
might be in a similar boat where

like originally you fell in
love with aerobatics.

That's all you wanted.

Yeah, like you didn't want to
go the major airline route.

Is there money solely in that?

Is it just like select few
that can make it or is it a way that

you could go without having
any other job and having a pretty

good lifestyle?

Or would you say it's, it's
pretty difficult.

I think again, you're falling
on the entrepreneurship side.

Right.

Like you, you are your own person.

So you have to decide.

You know, there's the Sean D.

Tuckers, there's Michael
Gulians, Rob Hollands, you know,

Uncle Goliad is sponsored by
Cirrus, Bose, Watt, all these big

companies.

But he didn't get there
because he just said, hey, I have

a plan and I can do this.

He's right.

Been doing this since he's 20
years old.

Grinding it out, doing it.

You know, Rob's the same way.

He's a full time air show
pilot, but he's also A Whatever.

It's seven time World
Freestyle Championship pilot, 13

time US National Championship pilot.

So for people that want to do
it, it's not that it's not possible,

but you just have to be dedicated.

You can't just show up next
week and be like, all right, I'm

gonna do this.

Here it is.

You know, for me it's, it's
been a dream from 12.

And then I did it for a bit,
then I couldn't do it and then, then

coming back at it.

And the biggest side of it,
you know, is, is safety with, with

the air show stuff because you
can perform for up to a hundred thousand

people at a time.

And it just takes one mistake,
one wrong energy vector and you're

into a crowd.

And you know, that's why we
train all the time.

You know, I generally fly
every week I'm home.

Even if it's not an actual air
shower scene or it's a competition

routine, it's just some type
of, type of flying that is revolved

in that sense.

And the better, the more, the,
the more time you spend in it, the

easier it does get.

But at the end of the day,
you're still trying to, There's a

grind to it because it's not
just, it's not just being a pilot

anymore.

You've got to be personable,
you got to know how to handle veterans,

you got to know how to handle
kids, you got to know how to.

Your personality.

Promoters, sponsors.

It's this whole avenue that
encompasses one and you know, like

we've seen with anything,
sponsors come and go.

You know, sponsors aren't
there forever.

You know, sponsors will be
there a couple years and they drop.

They have different marketing departments.

So it's a nice, it's, it's
nice to have sponsors but you have

to have the stuff yourself.

So do it.

Absolutely.

I, I enjoy that I don't have
to do it as a full time career, but

there's people that do do it
as full time career.

So there's definitely, you
know, there's definitely money into

it, there's definitely money
to be made, stuff like times.

But you know, again, it's a grind.

And these guys that do it,
hats off to them, they, they deserve

every bit of it.

They deserve every bit of the
stardom and the fade of fame that

they get when they go to things.

But.

Absolutely.

But there's tons of airline
pilots that, that are, there's tons

of airline and big name pilots
that fly from major companies that

do full time or they do
airtime, air show schedule and they

do it.

You know, there's, I mean, I
know, gosh, FedEx, American, Delta,

United.

That's awesome.

Yeah, so there's, there's a
bunch of it.

So it can be done, you know,
and I said that that's my plan, is

to be able to live both lives
and we'll see how it goes and where

that takes us.

It's got to be really hard to
know you're in this competition,

you want to win.

Like you mentioned earlier,
it's all about like energy management.

Right?

You in the plane, you know
your limits, you know what you can

push what you can't push.

But it's got to be so hard to
make the decision to pull out of

something just because, you
know, like, it's so close to your

limits.

But you know that if you, if
you complete it, you know, you could

win or you could do this, or
you could do the best in the moment.

Like, how hard is that
decision to make to.

To be like, all right, well,
that's a, that's out of my safety

margin.

I need to stop.

Is that like, as hard of a
decision as I think it is, or is

it just one of those.

You're like, oh, nope, that's
just it.

Like, I'm not putting myself
in a position to.

For my life or other people on
the ground.

I think it's just, that's a
maturity thing.

Everybody, like I said,
everybody wants to win, but being

able to say no, that's where
you value your flying abilities and

how you want to be remembered
versus other people.

People.

We see it all the time where
people just kind of push through

things and keep going.

And it's not just not the
limit side of, can be a physical

attribute too, of just saying,
like, hey, today I didn't drink enough

water.

Right?

So might not be a lot of the
times the ability doesn't come from

them not being able to handle
the plane, that this ability comes

from the how they prepared
themselves for that specific flight

that time.

You know, maybe it's.

Maybe you're in the middle of
Kansas and it's too hot and you didn't

drink enough water that
morning or maybe the day prior.

Now you're trying to catch up.

Well, you can't catch up once
you're dehydrated.

So, you know, it's got to be
professional, right?

You're a percentage.

Yeah, perfect example, right?

You're.

You're being professional, right.

Knowing when to quit is
knowing when to quit.

And that just comes with experience.

You don't learn that over a
day, over a couple hours.

And as we know in aviation
experiences is.

Is hard earned.

So generally you get
experience from bad things happening

or from close calls.

And yeah, so I, I think the, A
lot of where you kind of go back

with the knowing when to bail
out, that's just experience where

you're at in life, stuff like that.

I think people who are in
there, some people who are younger

are more hot rods and people
that are older.

Right.

I mean, I know I was more of a
hot rod pilot when I was younger

because I was just young and
now I got wife and kids and stuff

like that.

You slow down a bit, you think
about life a lot more.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, Marco, that's all I got
for you, man.

I know you're sitting again.

By noon, it's 11:59.

We're right on the dot, man.

There you go.

It was great talking with you.

If anyone wants to find you
mention your website already.

Social YouTube, go ahead and
drop that real quick and then we'll

get out.

Yeah, you totally watch on,
but it's there that some of the videos

I have from the old days and then.

Then the website I mentioned,
www.airshows.com and then Instagram

is M.

Bowser, so it's my last name
with the SCR on the end.

And that is.

That's really it.

That's what I use.

You can follow Facebook, Marco Bell.

And that's all.

Had a great time, man.

Finally.

Love talking to you.

Yeah, it'll be great.

I'll text you, like, 10 minutes.

I'll have to come to an air
show sometime and be like, that's

my buddy.

Look at him.

No, exactly.

It'll be right down the road.

Only if you do well, though.

If you start doing bad and be
like, oh, okay, let's delete that.

I'll have a big pilot to pilot
on the plane and I'll just.

Yeah, no, I'm just kidding.

Make it work, dude.

All right.

I appreciate you.

I wish you the best, and
hopefully you and I will get the

base of our choice soon.

But I hope you're having a
good day.

We'll see.

Have a good day, man.

We'll see you.

All right, see you, AV Nation.

That's a wrap on episode three.

330.

It is wild to say 330.

When I was counting down my
last episodes to see what number

we're on and I said 330 in my
mind, it just kind of hit me.

You know, we've been doing
this for a while.

You guys have been listening
to my voice.

You've been seeing my career progress.

I would love to see how your
career has progressed.

So if you've gotten any value
out of the podcast or anything, please

email me.

Let me know what you were
doing when you started the podcast

and where you are now.

So email me at justinpilot,
the Pilot hq.

That way I kind of hear your
stories and maybe we can connect

into a podcast.

So send me those stories.

I would love to see how the
podcast has helped or what you've

gotten out of this podcast.

Over 330 episodes.

That's an Airbus 330.

That's insane.

That's crazy.

I don't want to bore you
anymore with my voice.

I hope you guys are having a
great day and a great week.

And as always, happy flying.

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