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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;22;05
Aaron
Hey everyone! Super excited to have Eric Snowfro from Art Blocks joining us Fuckingo.
00;00;22;08 - 00;00;25;05
Snowfro
Gm gm y'all, how you doing?
00;00;25;07 - 00;00;35;14
Aaron
We're all New York, it's NFT NYC, and we've got a special episode today. We're going to talk deeply about NFTs, but we have one very special rule.
00;00;35;17 - 00;00;36;21
Snowfro
Of, gosh.
00;00;36;24 - 00;00;48;12
Aaron
We're not going to be talking about this with you, dude. You just learned I did, but that's going to be the only reference to it. We can talk around and talk about. It's a rainbow lashes lens.
00;00;48;14 - 00;00;49;08
Chris
It's curvaceous.
00;00;49;08 - 00;00;50;26
Pri
But we can't say the word is what I.
00;00;51;03 - 00;00;52;18
Aaron
Cannot say the word. All right.
00;00;52;23 - 00;00;57;09
Snowfro
Like I should just mic my, mute my mic at this.
00;00;57;12 - 00;00;58;24
Aaron
So what's going on here?
00;00;58;26 - 00;01;08;01
Snowfro
So not much. Just enjoying, enjoying the the week in New York. It's been it's been a beautiful week. I mean, the heat was crazy. He was insane. But everything else has been really nice.
00;01;08;03 - 00;01;20;07
Pri
What's been some of the highlights for you? I know there's been some, some very fun Roblox announcements and also some, some personal artistry stuff that you announced this week. But yeah, any general New York highlights for you so far? Eric?
00;01;20;15 - 00;01;39;13
Snowfro
I just say that everything that I've been to is highly, highly, highly sophisticated. Even I went to, I stopped by on the way to an event last night. I stopped by the Superrare Gallery. The Good Vibes Clubs guys were there. The super great gallery is incredible. I just all these galleries kind of pop up and they have, like, you know, some, some white walls and some screens on the wall, and it's great.
00;01;39;13 - 00;01;54;09
Snowfro
Like, they're all very nice and very clean and sophisticated, like they have the gallery yesterday I thought was like, really, really, really well put together. I don't know, I just, walked into the super gallery. They had this like downstairs area where you walk down into this like a and it's I mean, it was just really, really, really beautiful.
00;01;54;09 - 00;02;10;13
Snowfro
And everywhere that we went, every single event that we went to was very well put together. Art was displayed incredibly well and the vibes were really, really, really positive. So I think it's been I mean, this is the the most mature NFT week I've been to ever, and I'm excited to be here.
00;02;10;15 - 00;02;25;28
Aaron
So NFTs are getting more mature yet. And for folks that aren't in New York, I think that's been kind of a sub trend, which is there's now, what, 3 or 4 dedicated NFT galleries like as we we begin to see kind of NFTs mature and get installed in different ways.
00;02;25;28 - 00;02;50;19
Snowfro
And then New Yorkers, New Yorkers like, go to them to like, it looks like a when I, when I'm watching Twitter that, you know, people really turn up for these, whether it's after, or heat or, super. I mean, it's just it seems like it's just kind of a regular stop for New Yorkers, which isn't that different, I guess when I started discovering art or not discovering that, but like when I was in my early 20s and, you know, Thursdays, Fridays, we just we do like art crawls.
00;02;50;19 - 00;03;05;04
Snowfro
That was just a happy hour. It was just going to art stuff. And so it just feels like so native to New York. And it feels like the the community is very, very well connected and it doesn't feel crypto. It feels just like an art community in some ways. I wish I lived there to experience it more often.
00;03;05;07 - 00;03;18;10
Chris
Yeah, it's pretty constant actually. And also even like not only on the gallery side, I mean, people at the shed was pretty, pretty amazing too, is like in the middle of the lobby. I thought that was really neat and did you get a print?
00;03;18;12 - 00;03;19;08
Snowfro
The print?
00;03;19;10 - 00;03;21;10
Chris
I got a print, obviously. Yeah.
00;03;21;10 - 00;03;24;07
Snowfro
Oh man, I missed out. I got stuck at the bar.
00;03;24;09 - 00;03;27;11
Chris
Oh, I definitely was not.
00;03;27;13 - 00;03;42;00
Aaron
Know you got stuck at the bar. I got to that stuck on my son's birthday. I haven't even gone yet. So don't worry man like him and start his the wrong word. I had a wonderful dinner with my family where we celebrated things and touch grass and.
00;03;42;16 - 00;03;55;03
Pri
It was up for people I was talking with. I was talking about last night. I was I was making fun of him. That, his vibe on our pod is that core. And first. Yeah. And we're already we're already, our for.
00;03;55;03 - 00;04;10;18
Aaron
The past year. And. Yeah, now that I got my my show notes on my way over, I was like, I was thinking the worst possible way to see that. See if I get that near, like, a full bottle of just full of judgmental energy. So here I am.
00;04;10;20 - 00;04;10;28
Pri
There we.
00;04;10;28 - 00;04;32;02
Aaron
Go. So we've known each other for five years, the five of us, and we only get together maybe a couple times a year. You know, I think we're all in constant conversation with each other, but to have all five of us assembled is a bit of a rarity. And so know, let's just take a moment just to remember the first.
00;04;32;02 - 00;04;38;02
Snowfro
Four of you. Remember the first call. Do you remember the first call? It was me and you and me and Aaron. Do you remember this?
00;04;38;04 - 00;04;42;18
Aaron
I totally do. It was a zoom. It was in my basement. It was Covid.
00;04;42;18 - 00;04;53;01
Snowfro
Yeah. I was like, this is. I mean, y'all were like humans on the other side of it. Otherwise, like a voice on the internet. It was, I remember, like it was yesterday. Again, it's insane. It's been five years. Wow.
00;04;53;04 - 00;05;05;20
Aaron
Yeah. So things move quick. Those were definitely, like, special moments things. Thanks, Chris, for calling out and giving us a moment of reflection. Meaning also into your dad are we all read letters.
00;05;05;20 - 00;05;08;10
Pri
That we're going to share with each other now?
00;05;08;12 - 00;05;14;29
Aaron
How do we give them the front desk. And they're going to mail them in six months? Yeah, yeah. So so you've forgotten loved.
00;05;14;29 - 00;05;31;04
Pri
A little time. Well, also they're a time capsule, you know, reflect back on them, Eric. I mean, just like on the themes, it seems like we're going there. It's been been five years. Maybe you can talk a little bit about I don't know what's looking back five years. What what's what's worked. Well but what are you happy with.
00;05;31;04 - 00;05;47;24
Pri
What are, you know, reflecting on that you may have room for improvement for the next five years, like maybe take a beacon and tell us what, yeah. What it's been like being a pioneer in our little corner of the internet. And what gets you up in the morning and what gets you motivated to keep working on it?
00;05;47;25 - 00;05;52;10
Pri
And what's been the last five years like for you? Maybe, in a couple of minutes. Once you wrap.
00;05;52;12 - 00;06;06;11
Snowfro
I don't know, I, I mean, that would take a really long time, but I will say, like, I can summarize it. And I remember being interviewed back in 2021 and 2022 and, you know, everything was kind of going crazy. And people were talking about money and money and like, you know, these are the art magazines and the newspapers.
00;06;06;11 - 00;06;24;12
Snowfro
And, you know, I would say, like, there is going to be a moment of homeostasis. And we have absolutely had that moment of homeostasis like it is now. Just it's like the way that we that I was talking about the art events and like the maturity of the space, there's always going to be some madness on Twitter. There's always gonna be some madness going to be like in the ecosystem.
00;06;24;14 - 00;07;01;20
Snowfro
But we have we have hit a divide of homeostasis, where everything is just kind of at a at a point where it feels normal and it feels like expectations are kind of normal expectations. And so anywhere we go from here, I think is going to be really positive. But I think that we're kind of we're having like an accumulation moment of, of normalcy and, and, and that actually is very attractive for people outside of, you know, the, the digital art space to kind of feel at home and interested and, you know, watching, you know, Art Basel from afar this year, it looked like there was quite a bit of momentum from outside of
00;07;01;20 - 00;07;20;05
Snowfro
the nerdy side of things, curious about what we're doing. So I'd say of all of the things that have come to fruition over the years of, you know, because we all guess what the future is going to be like. And, you know, I definitely thought there would be more people here today. I think we kind of experienced a big drop off that happened in tranches.
00;07;20;05 - 00;07;50;15
Snowfro
But, the, the, the homeostasis that I'm currently experiencing both on the internet and in person, I think is maybe one of the healthiest things. That doesn't mean anybody is making any money. But, and, you know, there are businesses to run, right? So it's hard to, to manage that. But also, it does feel like we're a starting point, like it feels like we can kind of think about the future in a, in a, in a fresh way as compared to having the, the madness that happened in 21 and then just watching a precipitous decline like it's very it's it's not fun to get out of bed when like things that you absolutely cannot control
00;07;50;15 - 00;08;06;19
Snowfro
are happening around you all the time. And now, now it feels for the first time, like everything that we do is absolutely within our control. And of course, there could be another bull run which takes things out of control again. But we can't, you know, we can't do that. We are in a canoe with tiny little paddles going down rapids.
00;08;06;19 - 00;08;19;17
Snowfro
But I do feel like we've kind of gotten to the end of the rapids, and now we're just kind of in a canoe with tiny paddles moving across a still area of the, of the, of the river. And so I'm really excited about it. I don't know how y'all. I mean, I'm so curious how y'all feel about it.
00;08;19;17 - 00;08;23;03
Snowfro
You guys are the big brains, you know, in this space.
00;08;23;05 - 00;08;40;11
Aaron
I feel good about it. I mean, I think I think a lot of folks are just super impatient. But to me it's it's been it's crystal clear really, for the past five years, the direction that this is where things will go. And I feel like we're in this, this period where there was a lot of excitement, there had to be a reset.
00;08;40;11 - 00;09;02;11
Aaron
It feels like I wouldn't use the word homeostasis. I used more like equilibrium, like a new equilibrium is kind of been set. I feel like the, broader tech crypto markets have kind of equally done that. And so I think it's just going to be a continued period prior for next year of steady growth. And then we usually see steady growth and then a breakout.
00;09;02;11 - 00;09;24;23
Aaron
Right. So I don't know when that breakout happens, but it feels like we're edging closer and closer to that every day. And you know, it just feels like lots of stuff. And crypto tends to like loop back on itself. So first kind of wave of meme coins really happened. Probably right around the time it launched. We saw kind of in other ways related to that.
00;09;24;26 - 00;09;35;28
Aaron
You know, we saw early DeFi and then a DeFi way. We saw early NFT, saw NFT wave. So I feel like the those cycles are private still come back. I don't know, you guys think.
00;09;36;00 - 00;10;01;23
Chris
It's a good it's a good point. I largely or that I'm not sure for totally out of the woods, though. Yeah. I feel like with the analogy you're using, it's like paddling through the rapids. I feel like there's still a little bit of that, but like I do agree that the space is maturing. I mean, you see it with the galleries, you see, like the institutional chat art interest, you know, that's all great, but I feel like there is a little bit of loss of momentum still in the space.
00;10;01;23 - 00;10;19;24
Chris
And I feel like there has to be like some breakout thing, breakout esthetic to like, maybe that's the beginning of a bull market, but like to me that just it feels like we're still reminiscing a little bit, but like, there's still, you know, there is an evolution of maturity. But I do think that we're not out totally out of the woods yet.
00;10;19;24 - 00;10;25;23
Chris
Like in order to get out of the woods, I feel like we need like a new energy or a new this that I maybe, I don't know, that's my take.
00;10;25;23 - 00;10;26;26
Pri
What do you think, Chris?
00;10;26;29 - 00;10;50;09
Aaron
I don't have any thoughts on this one. Like Casarosa off. I don't think we're seeing it right now. You know, we could see it any any given moment and maybe, maybe that's happening and we're just not aware of it. Knowing where you are in a moment time is tricky, but I'm going to turn this around to snow for a sack here and snow like you're feeling of, let's say, being in control or being in equilibrium.
00;10;50;10 - 00;11;07;01
Aaron
Is that have anything to do with you jumping in and doing this, glitch residency, getting you out there and making you work? Like, do you feel like you're in a place where this is a good moment to jump off? Or are you just doing it because Derek kind of you.
00;11;07;04 - 00;11;36;00
Snowfro
Know, I mean, it certainly helps to be able to, like, express myself creatively. It's been a long time since I've been able to do that and also express myself creatively in a way that is something that's completely out of my comfort zone. The, you know, the the homeostasis is more just like, I mean, we've I don't know about you guys, but like every single day for the last five years, I've learned something and I've matured and I've grown and I've, you know, we've gone through some crazy shit at our blocks, both internally and externally, because this is crazy stuff as a community.
00;11;36;08 - 00;11;52;02
Snowfro
And I think it's kind of insane to think that, like, I mean, maybe, you know, it just it depends. I'm not a startup founder. Like I didn't come from that side. So maybe like coming from a startup founding perspective, maybe you would have come into this with a better perspective and the more refined and sharpened idea of how to participate in this space.
00;11;52;02 - 00;12;23;21
Snowfro
But, you know, five years, 10,000 hours, I don't know. You know, at this point, I feel like it's way more than that. I do think, like a lot of us are maybe hitting that point of competency and I don't just mean in like being a founder or and being, an artist or being. It's like a competency and understanding where we are at as a technology and as, as a, as an ecosystem, as a community, as a potentially disruptive technology and just a culture and, and potentially politics.
00;12;23;24 - 00;12;40;16
Snowfro
And I, I that's where I feel like I'm in a groove. I spent 20 years in the ceramic tile business. Like, I know that's not the most exciting thing in the world, but nobody in Houston knew more about ceramic tile and about the intricacies of importing and distributing and specifying than I did. And it's like it was what put my business on the map.
00;12;40;16 - 00;13;04;12
Snowfro
And it took me a really long time to get to that point. We are still I'm still I'm still learning. We're still learning. But it does feel like we've learned a lot. We've seen things come and go. It's like, you know, now that the sub tweets like they, they have a little bit less damage than they did in the past because it's kind of like, oh my God, like it's 2025 and we're still, you know, talking to each other like this.
00;13;04;12 - 00;13;23;11
Snowfro
Like like there's just a certain amount of maturity that I think helps me feel more, have more clarity around what's going on. And, you know, it's it's, you know, I feel like it was a few years ago, Aaron and I were on a panel and it was like a I wouldn't say it was like a disagreement, but it was kind of like, you know, Aaron was like, no, this is internet art.
00;13;23;11 - 00;13;57;24
Snowfro
And I'm like, no, this is like fine art. And, you know, I've been expressing recently this hypocrisy between obviously being very excited when like, a museum collects artwork, but also going back to this internet art and this kind of idea that like, well, maybe, you know, maybe the Jack butcher accepted model is actually more interesting for the future of curation and the future of kind of making your mark as an artist in, in, in this culture, there's, there's a lot of philosophy that, at least internally, is going into thinking about these things and trying to like, break out of these hypocrisies that I find myself in sometimes, like, you know, you want one thing, but
00;13;57;24 - 00;14;16;10
Snowfro
then like, you want something for somebody else. And I, I do feel like I maybe I shouldn't say I have I have matured a tremendous amount over the years, and, and it has opened up my ability to kind of see things a little bit more clearly and more importantly, level set expectations. When when I came into this, I had zero expectations.
00;14;16;10 - 00;14;38;02
Snowfro
When I created our blocks, I had absolutely negative expectations. I, and so but, you know, things exploded and things grew. And then, you know, at some point it's like, well, you know, it was impossible to call when things were going to slow down. And it was also possible. Well, I guess there was a couple top signals, but there, you know, and then on top of that, it was impossible to call how far it was going to go down.
00;14;38;04 - 00;14;56;15
Snowfro
And now I feel like we have gotten to this point over the last couple of years, you know, yeah, maybe homeostasis isn't the right word, but it does feel like there there's a clarity for me. And also when I talk to artists, like I think artists have kind of become significantly more aware of themselves and mature in their participation in the space.
00;14;56;18 - 00;15;11;27
Snowfro
There's the clarity of the founders that are, for the most part, that are still kind of in the ecosystem that have figured out a way to survive. I think it's just like incredibly powerful and exciting. So it's a big thing. It gets me out of bed in the morning, and it gives me the ability to give that energy back.
00;15;11;27 - 00;15;28;12
Snowfro
There was a there was a couple of years there. Guys were like, I mean, you know, hanging out, having beers. It's fine. I have that energy. But like, I like there was there was no it was, you know, pumped up fun, like sucked the air out of the room of Twitter. I guess for a couple of years. It was just really hard to to be myself.
00;15;28;16 - 00;15;30;27
Aaron
Yeah. I think it's like the era of crypto.
00;15;30;28 - 00;15;32;24
Chris
I was just going to say I don't like that was just.
00;15;33;00 - 00;15;34;06
Aaron
Yeah, like like.
00;15;34;06 - 00;15;48;13
Snowfro
When people talk about, I mean, obviously like, you know, everybody, there was things that went up their value and things that went down in value and there's been a ton of people that like, lost a ton of money, a ton of people that fucking became millionaires over the course of the years with punks and art blocks and bored apes or whatever.
00;15;48;21 - 00;16;09;15
Snowfro
But when you take the total monetary value of that, and you put it in comparison to the total monetary value of the your casino that went public fund, and then you look at like the residual value of all of the participation and pumped fun. It literally it's like it's like cute. The, the activity in the volume that was happening within the NFT ecosystem in comparison to the other.
00;16;09;18 - 00;16;26;29
Snowfro
But, you know, it's it's weird because, like, you don't, you know, I don't hear anybody complaining about the Argentina coin anymore, even though how many hundreds of millions of dollars were lost on that shit. But to this day, people can still, like, find ways to resent and be frustrated about what happened with the NFT cycle in 2021.
00;16;26;29 - 00;16;46;13
Snowfro
And so, I don't know, it's just a it's just a it's a maturation. And it's just kind of like, I have a job. I have a mission. I'm excited about the future. I'm terrified about the future, from a technological perspective. But I'm excited about the future and the people that are still here and having commerce, at least the ones that I'm at the bar with til four in the morning are incredibly excited about the future as well.
00;16;46;13 - 00;17;15;15
Chris
And and we all are too. I mean, if you think about it, in the grand scheme of things like it takes multi decades for like art movements to actually trickle into society and culture and like we're five years in really. And like I even think the growth in five years is pretty remarkable. Like most people know, even like my friends know and have seen, you know, specific generative artworks that are curvaceous, and can really create these rainbow curves.
00;17;15;18 - 00;17;20;19
Chris
But, yeah, I mean, we're just like in the early innings of it, so it's it's fine.
00;17;20;21 - 00;17;47;09
Aaron
But I do think it's been normalized. I just think it's a lot of tech cycles. They follow like a common path. Right. There's like a lot of euphoria at the beginning. It like slides down and goes into like a trough of disillusionment. And then there's like the slope of enlightenment. Yeah. And then there's that kind of breakout. And you know, most famously that, you know, I guess in recent memory of me, like I write like I everybody looks at OpenAI and anthropic and sees instantaneous success.
00;17;47;17 - 00;17;49;06
Aaron
But this company has been running away.
00;17;49;06 - 00;17;50;19
Chris
For like 15 years.
00;17;50;19 - 00;18;15;11
Aaron
Yeah. I don't know the exact amount, but a long time before they kind of had that breakout moment. And we have seen kind of volumes dip down pretty considerably in NFTs. So it feels like we're in the the trough disillusionment. We were talking to one of our colleagues on the tribute team. Yesterday, and we were asking, hey, when do you think the NFT market bounces back to where it was in 2021, 2022?
00;18;15;19 - 00;18;28;04
Aaron
And he said 2035 and that was honestly the most bullish thing I've heard in in years, just because it means that people people really are kind of in the middle of that disillusionment cycle.
00;18;28;11 - 00;18;45;15
Snowfro
So disillusionment is in comparison to what? Right. Because I think there's a relativity to all of this, like disillusionment compared to the peak mania. Absolutely. But disillusionment in in comparison to pre all of these things.
00;18;45;18 - 00;18;46;14
Chris
Right.
00;18;46;17 - 00;19;18;11
Snowfro
Like before any. Yeah. Like viable dialog outside of like Reddit and Instagram was happening around digital art, the digital culture is it's, it's like it has been pretty up only for the digital like for the digital medium. And, there's also like, like maybe there is not never another 20, 21 peak time. I, I hope that there is I think that, you know, I, I want my friends to make money and be happy, and I want artists to make money, be like I, you know, I want everybody to like, you know, live, live a life that's like very joyful.
00;19;18;11 - 00;19;45;15
Snowfro
And a lot of people associate joy with these markets. But like the the reality is that this the reason that I got into this tech and I think just from knowing you guys for this on the reason that you guys got into this tech has not fucking changed. Like it has not budged. It has not shifted. Like the excitement around digital ownership, the excitement, whether it's tokens or NFTs or just, you know, reserve currencies like that has not changed.
00;19;45;15 - 00;20;05;06
Snowfro
It has not gotten any better or worse. Like it is the exact same excitement and joy that I had when I first discovered Ethereum and all of these cycles. It sucks. And because it's like it's distracting and confusing and people get really emotional and I get emotional. But in the end, like the technology is still the most beautiful thing that has happened.
00;20;05;06 - 00;20;20;29
Snowfro
And there's it's hard to associate the word disillusionment. I know you're talking about this typical kind of graph, but like, gosh, it's still so damn exciting. And, you know, as the world kind of comes around to it, I think it's, you know, once we abstract the technology a little bit like it's, you know, anyways, I don't know if.
00;20;21;02 - 00;20;41;08
Aaron
I think what what he was saying is like, the world is coming around to it, right? It's becoming even more and I think it is kind of in that enlightenment phase, you know, and maybe, maybe Chris has some thoughts about it, but it feels like crypto has to go through and, and make the most ridiculous mistakes before it itself corrects.
00;20;41;08 - 00;20;43;02
Chris
The network is permissionless. It is a.
00;20;43;02 - 00;20;57;05
Aaron
Permissionless network, but it feels like kind of that's what's been happening. It kind of went to almost like its lowest common denominator. Like in my mind, that is it was just like no utility, no vision, pure speculation.
00;20;57;05 - 00;20;57;27
Chris
People faking.
00;20;57;27 - 00;21;00;11
Aaron
Deaths. Yeah, it was pure extraction.
00;21;00;11 - 00;21;01;20
Snowfro
Oh, God.
00;21;01;23 - 00;21;23;13
Aaron
The ugliest parts of the space like consolidated down with like a veneer of online influencers, like pushing it but in the shadows. I just feel like that core vision just kind of remains. People still believe in this idea of having objects that you can own. Online internet culture continues to kind of grow and expand, like the usability pieces continue to get better.
00;21;23;19 - 00;21;40;26
Aaron
It continues to get cheaper. Like all the the basic things that you're going to look for when evaluating tech are kind of there. So just like it's going to be probably, you know, steady grinding growth for at least the next couple quarters to to the next year. Also, you know it never gets talked about, but the regs are coming in place.
00;21;40;29 - 00;22;04;22
Aaron
That does matter right. It's hard for established institutions to adopt this stuff if they have grumpy lawyers that are just yeah, they can't do stuff right or they can't use it or they don't understand it or they don't understand these like very basic commercial factors. So even that's kind of clearing up. So it feels like a bright rainbow filled sky in the in the future is.
00;22;04;25 - 00;22;22;00
Chris
It's funny that it's kind of tracking like institutional adoption of crypto in general. Like if you look at like the stablecoin bill and the clarity act like it's all kind of maturing at the same time, which maybe that's all to be expected. But it it's it does feel like that maturation is happening across different vectors of crypto.
00;22;22;03 - 00;23;03;07
Pri
Eric, let me ask you, as applied to some of this conversation, maybe something that's a little bit more isolated to kind of the art side of crypto. Is there is there anything to to I mean, I'm curious to always get your take on, you touched on this idea of like, internet art versus, more fine art, and I'm wondering if, you know, for as a, as a mechanism for display and distribution there, there really is nothing reproducible or comparable to kind of like the distribution power of the internet and us having mobile phones in our pockets as having laptops that we sit in front of for, you know, a dozen hours a day
00;23;03;09 - 00;23;33;25
Pri
for, for, you know, stimulating things like, networking of an object or an art piece. And I am, I guess, you know, you referenced that, but you're I'm curious of how your your views have evolved to one side or the other, and whether or not there are limitations in terms of like physical display that are maybe hampering or, or maybe preventing some of that networking to happen in physical planes like it is currently happening and internet plans and just your maybe your latest thinking there five years.
00;23;33;25 - 00;23;55;13
Snowfro
And so yeah, I mean I was I was watching Art Basel from afar for example. And I just I saw this beautiful artwork be displayed both physical and digital. And, but it was, it was being presented in the context of the past, which is even kind of some in some cases, like the gallery setting, it's it's still in the context of, you know, there was a there was a time where if you wanted to go discover art, you would get out of your house and you would.
00;23;55;20 - 00;24;30;14
Snowfro
Right, right, right. A horse or drive a car to a place to, like, have this emotional or connection with like a piece of art and to your point of like, you know, our phones and our devices, like the, the I'm constantly back and forth on this, so I don't know that I can give like any definitive feeling here, but like the truly digital nature of the like, if you think about the at this point, thousands of people that have walked up to me over the course of those five years and showed me a worm with a lot of colors on it, on their phone and been like, yeah, this is mine, you know?
00;24;30;14 - 00;24;46;17
Snowfro
And that is, I don't know. I mean, like, you know, and it's like sometimes, you know, they show it on OpenSea or they show you like it's really like full screen, you know, like how it's meant to be seen, I guess, like as an artwork. But that is actually the native fucking way that this world kind of comes apart.
00;24;46;17 - 00;25;09;02
Snowfro
And so we would talk shit about, you know, especially that the traditional art world would be like, oh man, yeah, it's just a bunch of art on your phone. But like, you know, we like you said, we spend increasingly more time on our phone. We increasingly appreciate our digital belongings. And I don't know that I, I see no reason why we would not embrace the screens and hiding the cables better.
00;25;09;02 - 00;25;31;00
Snowfro
Like, I love the combination of screens and prints that I have in my house. I passively experience art all day, every single day. Scrolling Twitter. I'm passively experiencing art all day, every day, walking around my house. I'm passing and experiencing art. And I do feel like in some ways, it's like we're trying to fit a square peg round hole with how we want to.
00;25;31;00 - 00;25;58;02
Snowfro
Almost like tell people that they need to experience this. When I think the most joy that I've seen in this space, at least as an artist, is somebody literally pulling out that tiny little screen and showing me their art and being like, yeah, this one is mine. Like, that is actually way more joy than I think most people get when they walk up to a museum and they look at a mona Lisa or, you know, like that, or like some piece of art that they're, they're they're educated or trained to like, think is important.
00;25;58;05 - 00;26;17;06
Snowfro
That new paradigm of how people are expressing alignment support cultural like ties might just be on your screen, on your phone. I don't know how to describe what I'm trying to say. I just, I I'll just summarize by saying, like, I feel like we spent all this time trying to find the ways to make it perfectly displayed on the screen.
00;26;17;06 - 00;26;45;11
Snowfro
And, and, and some of them look like, for example, ringers look amazing printed. Right? So like they don't all need to be on a screen, but maybe we're missing the point that like the art gallery of today is actually Twitter and Instagram and the, the, the purest form of this experience, because every piece of NFT art that's exists is publicly available in its native form on your in your pocket is that interaction that you have when you share the work in person like that?
00;26;45;14 - 00;27;03;12
Chris
Yeah. It's funny you mentioned that I had a friend in the traditional art world who was like, we were talking about NFTs, and she's like, I totally got NFTs when I realized. And she sells artwork in a gallery. And she was just noting that most of her clients don't even, like, see the physical work. It's all like shared via a PDF or screenshot or an Instagram anyway.
00;27;03;14 - 00;27;04;12
Chris
So like really.
00;27;04;12 - 00;27;08;10
Aaron
Awesome to note that the traditional art world is running on PDFs.
00;27;08;17 - 00;27;28;00
Chris
Now. I mean, like literally they just send PDFs of the programing. And so it's like most people are already observing the physical work on screen anyway. So how is that, you know, rarely are you really experiencing the physical work unless you're there in person. It's it's largely transmitted on Instagram or PDF, which I think is like kind of an interesting comp.
00;27;28;03 - 00;27;42;25
Snowfro
Yeah, I agree with that. And also if you've been to People Studio, like People studio fills the screen up all the walls with like art, but like rarely are they just showing one piece of art. In fact, when they show a bunch of rectangular pieces of art next to each other on these massive walls, it's cool because you get to see your art really big.
00;27;42;25 - 00;28;02;14
Snowfro
But what's actually mind boggling about being in that studio is when they create a mash up of a bunch of different pieces of art like, you know, it was a one minute video that that, they did, for the opening with, with, with my thing. And, there was like 50. There's, something. Sorry, guys, I missed it.
00;28;02;14 - 00;28;05;29
Snowfro
It's like these things happen. Do these things on a wall.
00;28;06;01 - 00;28;06;15
Aaron
Like,
00;28;06;17 - 00;28;23;25
Snowfro
Flashing and, like, moving around or whatever. And like this. Definitely not the intended thing. Like, it's not. It's intended to just be static on the wall. I guess when you think about it as an artwork, but, like, there's 200 people in the room, and this happened with Dick Motion's work. Like every artist that was highlighted for a minute, people would stop what they were doing and they would clap and they'd be like, I like that.
00;28;23;28 - 00;28;44;14
Snowfro
That's not the intent that you would never take 50 Picasso's and like, put them up on a screen and randomize them and make them different sizes and, and flash bright lights and, and expect that to be like an experience, a cultural experience. Yet with this, it's like it touches like a dopamine sensor that it just doesn't matter the normal way that it's displayed.
00;28;44;14 - 00;29;01;06
Snowfro
It doesn't matter when it's like a PDF or like an attachment to an email. Like, this is the truest form of experiencing the interconnectivity culturally within NFTs. That and so yeah, sorry I messed it up, but I didn't say that, etc.. So you're right, you're all good, man. We're just going.
00;29;01;06 - 00;29;21;21
Aaron
To we're going to bleep it out okay good. Just like a customer. Yeah it's appropriate word. It's dirty. You guys like being bored by these conversations. Specifically around well no I, I like I like I like snow right. Like I love.
00;29;21;21 - 00;29;23;29
Chris
That but yeah let's go.
00;29;24;02 - 00;29;53;24
Aaron
Snow is done. Probably 100 interviews this year. Right. Like some some ridiculous amount of this. Like talking about constraints, talking about displays, talking about where a piece of art should go or where it shouldn't go. That's boring to me. And because we've had these conversations, but people continue to have the conversations and I'm not sure, like, you know, if other people feel this way, I do believe it's kind of specific to me because I get bored of things easily.
00;29;53;24 - 00;30;11;00
Aaron
But also I work so I work in product, right? And product is plastic, and I give two shits about like how my product shows up as long as it's doing its job and like, I got a piece of junk mail the other day, right? And I'm about to throw it out and there's mint mobile stamped on the back of it.
00;30;11;00 - 00;30;46;13
Aaron
You know, one of those, like, coupon, you know, flier things. And I was like, oh, there's my work recycling bin. And I don't know why was it? But like, where do I keep I, I think a lot of the discussion within the world, within our world is overly hung up on form factors or on into production or display or this or that, and I understand it from a certain point of view where if that's an important part of your practice and you're really into the material, but at the same time, like, I don't know, it's now, do you ever get tired of this?
00;30;46;16 - 00;31;09;23
Snowfro
My my thoughts evolve every time I have a conversation. So I wouldn't say that I get tired of it, but I mean, I think you kind of supporting this point that like the medium, we don't know what it is, but we know what makes it special. We know what makes us excited about it. And I feel like we just it's, you know, go back to 2017 with like the road map websites where they were all the same fucking like square peg, round hole, ICO shit.
00;31;09;23 - 00;31;30;29
Snowfro
Like we, we gravitate as humans to try to put things into a box and then we evolve that box over time. If something's stick and something's don't stick. And like, the reality is, I don't know that. But I think this conversation is healthy and understanding that, like, we don't know what that box is. And I think we're discovering and understanding that maybe trying to fit something into a box isn't the right approach.
00;31;30;29 - 00;31;57;07
Snowfro
Or like maybe more to your point of being bored. It's not even that it's the right approach or the wrong approach is like we, we, we have so many fish to fry and to this point, the people that care about this, care about this so deeply that they don't give a shit how it's displayed. Like the people that have come around and like become passionate about this kind of stuff, you know, like we're responding to the traditional art world being like, well, yeah, but the screens and the cables and stuff, but they don't care.
00;31;57;07 - 00;32;19;25
Snowfro
What they care about is the ownership and we have seven, eight years ago, proven the ability to own something digital for the first time, like you. And we're monkeys and we're just like learning what that is. And I think, you know, to your point of, yeah, I don't mind having the conversations, but I think the, the bigger point is that this is evolving and we're still kind of figuring this out and trying to trying to like specify what's right or wrong.
00;32;19;28 - 00;32;37;18
Snowfro
It's it really just kind of comes down to like, you know, how the artist sort the gallery, have a how the ecosystem wants to be displayed and the level of sophistication that they want to be associated with. So I appreciate that comment, Chris. I think, you know, it's interesting, I, I do talk about the same things over and over, and I'm sure you all do as well.
00;32;37;20 - 00;32;51;06
Pri
Yeah, I the comment you made so about vacillating back and forth between this idea is one that I resonate with, and I think it's because, you know, I would I am and consider myself to be kind of an internet native. Maxey. Like I think.
00;32;51;08 - 00;32;51;22
Aaron
You to.
00;32;51;28 - 00;32;52;03
Chris
Me.
00;32;52;03 - 00;33;14;16
Pri
Too. I do believe that like these objects have like this inherent networking ability that that is, you know, like really it's it's it thrives. It's super power is like being in digitally native environments and, and leveraging the distribution quality of the internet that we've built painstakingly for 25 years around the world. And I think it's it's like peanut butter and jelly to me.
00;33;14;18 - 00;33;36;12
Pri
Listen, I have a physical gallery, so I'm, I'm talking against myself here. And this is like this question is so curious to me. The more you offload that and distribute some of that into physical spaces, you're the thing that I was struck by is like, you're you're you're left with a fragment or a piece of what made the thing interesting, at least to me.
00;33;36;14 - 00;33;57;03
Pri
Now, that being said, I walk into people's space or we'll do something like glitch or, you know, I've seen them. I haven't had a chance to go. I have to go back to merch gallery out in New York and and I'll feel like, okay, they're tapping into something that's really interesting. It's different. Like, it's not quite the thing that makes me excited about crypto, our digital art.
00;33;57;06 - 00;34;19;06
Pri
But the tapping is something that's interesting and maybe the amplifying of of the space in the medium. And so I'm always, yeah, I guess vacillating is a great word because there are so many benefits to having 150 people looking at art together in a room and talking about it and, seeing the work, displayed in a very specific way under, you know, artist intent.
00;34;19;08 - 00;34;27;00
Pri
That's just different than why I love digital objects that are owned on that theory. And, you know, can be viewed on your, on your phone or your laptop.
00;34;27;04 - 00;34;44;14
Snowfro
I mean, I just want to say because you said, you know, obviously you own a physical space, but like, I think hands down top and art experiences I've ever had in my life are the auction thing. The day with the most likes did it glitch and Joe pieces thing with the dude sitting at the desk and like that had nothing to do with the art that was on the walls.
00;34;44;14 - 00;35;02;04
Snowfro
It didn't matter what the art that was on the walls, it was like, if you just had a dude sitting there on a desk and the community doesn't know who Joe is, it'd be like, oh yeah, it's like fun. But like, there's these people are drawn by Joe. Pieces work and like, drawn by the quirkiness of it. And you go around the corner and there's this dude, like, typing on the computer, like the people got goosebumps from that experience.
00;35;02;04 - 00;35;22;16
Snowfro
And like, you know, bargaining with die with mosaics for like a pair of truck nuts. It literally like was the most chaotic but also culturally correct. And an interesting moment like, or one of the most culturally interesting moments that I've had, in, in not just in the NFT career, but in, like, my entire cultural understanding of art career.
00;35;22;18 - 00;35;26;19
Snowfro
And the neither of them required a display to be effective.
00;35;26;22 - 00;35;46;25
Pri
I really appreciate you saying that. And, you know, like, I think a listen, I think just first and foremost, both Diane and so are such creative powerhouses that, you know, working with those guys is, it's just it's it's so it's so much fun. And they are they are willing to go to places that most people just don't.
00;35;46;28 - 00;36;08;00
Pri
And so, like, first and foremost, so much of of why of their work, especially by those exhibitions was special work because of those two. Now I will also say I, I think I where I net out on this is like I'm very excited about the idea of not trying to replicate the work as it exists on the internet, but speak to something that's more adjacent to it.
00;36;08;04 - 00;36;41;22
Pri
And I think that's why those exhibitions work so well, is they extended the work into a physical plane where physics matter and where you can actually, you know, further or deepen some of the experience with these digital. And then it work in ways that are tangential but not directly related. But the one and I think what you're getting at and what I'm trying to say is I think there's a place for physical in this new world, and it doesn't necessarily mean, completely like, skew more sizing, like the work itself and bringing it to a physical space, 1 to 1 like it.
00;36;41;22 - 00;36;46;02
Pri
You would, you would see it on your screen or on your laptop or wherever that might be.
00;36;46;03 - 00;37;01;29
Snowfro
But there's also like a thing saying like, okay, these are these artists. And they came up like, man, there's some big fucking shoes to fill up for that event, right? But like, some artists are actually totally happy and excited to have their work shown in a white walled gallery. And that is like a huge achievement and really exciting for them.
00;37;01;29 - 00;37;26;09
Snowfro
And, and I enjoy viewing art in that setting as well. But like, like one doesn't displace the other like the, the, the, the career path of the artist and how they choose to like, share and experience and like the thoughtfulness around their work is there's different strokes for different folks. And it's like, you know, I go to Coachella and like, jam it out at Skrillex and like, you know, people go to Coachella and they want to listen to Red Hot Chili Peppers.
00;37;26;09 - 00;37;41;05
Snowfro
Like, to me, those are very, very, very different things. But the fact that, like, I want to go to like jump up and down, it's really doesn't mean that like the, you know, typical rock band experience of like coming out and like is is any different or any better. So different people are going to experience different things in different ways.
00;37;41;05 - 00;38;10;11
Snowfro
Different artists are going to want to show their work in different ways. It's our job to do the best for them and to make that work shine in the best possible way. That's literally our job. As kind of like stewards of this ecosystem and stewards of the art. While I very much prefer the ingenuity that kind of went into those exhibitions at glitch, there's also something very special about showing up to a gallery show and having a conversation with the artist, and and neither of them outdo the other one.
00;38;10;11 - 00;38;29;05
Snowfro
It's just like maybe one of them is really leveraging the interconnect. You know, what I think is powerful about this is the interconnected nature of it, the distribution mechanisms of it, the automation. So everybody has something that's unique and it does feel like there's people like you mentioned Jack butcher earlier. There's some people that have really, really leaned into that.
00;38;29;08 - 00;38;57;03
Snowfro
And I find that to be incredibly exciting and powerful. But that doesn't discredit people that just want to make like something that looks cool on the screen. But obviously the things that get us out of bed in the morning, you know, back to your first question, like those are the things that get us out of bed in the morning because those are the things that are going to, you know, hopefully bring more people in and blow people's minds, get people to have this moment of like understanding about why this is so exciting and powerful and that is going to continue to evolve significantly from here.
00;38;57;06 - 00;39;12;21
Pri
I said one last thing on this, I think, to that last point, Eric, I think one of the most impactful moments I've had is going to like, like my childhood museum and being able to, to to see that rainbow line on the wall and people, you know.
00;39;12;23 - 00;39;13;16
Aaron
Was it aligned?
00;39;13;17 - 00;39;16;24
Pri
It was, it had some curves.
00;39;16;27 - 00;39;18;18
Aaron
And some ups and downs and it.
00;39;18;18 - 00;39;37;01
Pri
Did it and it was a simple it was a simple presentation of your work and I have to be honest, just seeing the work there and being able to talk to people about it, one of the curators was there and I was I had this conversation with them about, you know, what it was like generating these things procedurally in the earliest days.
00;39;37;01 - 00;39;40;03
Pri
And who was an artist. It was so impactful for me.
00;39;40;05 - 00;39;41;03
Chris
We would do.
00;39;41;05 - 00;39;41;11
Aaron
Our.
00;39;41;11 - 00;39;42;22
Chris
Favorites. Yeah.
00;39;42;24 - 00;40;04;08
Pri
Pretty. And Aaron and I, Chris, we used to use to stay up super late, like just like sharing outlets with each other and I remember being there like LA and thinking like, this is fucking awesome. And it it was to your point, Eric, just art on the wall. And I feel like I would never discredit the impact that that can have because that, that is that is also important to me.
00;40;04;11 - 00;40;33;24
Snowfro
And that's the hypocrisy, right? Like I there's no world in which I would be like, oh, damn it, a museum acquired a squiggle, like there's no world in which I would be disappointed in that. But it's like, what am I driving for? What are we as artists? What are we as founders? What is we are collectors. What is actually the end goal and just making sure that we are open to not fucking knowing what the end goal is, that's all that matters, is making sure that we're open minded to not knowing what that end goal is, and being happy with anything that's coming our way, and being very protective of what we do, and making
00;40;33;24 - 00;40;48;10
Snowfro
sure that it's not shown in a way that we don't want it to be shown, or that it's not consumed in a way that we don't want it to be consumed only because as an artist, you do feel protective about your work. But outside of that, we don't we don't know. And, you know, like the lack of the thing is really special to me.
00;40;48;10 - 00;41;05;28
Snowfro
I you know, I went with a bunch of, dao people of that also like, little colorful lines and, you know, it's like there's this it's not it's it's a meme, but like, there's all these people, you know, we reproduce this like, meme where there's a bunch of people taking a picture of the art, and there's a person taking a picture, taking a picture of the people that are.
00;41;05;28 - 00;41;34;25
Snowfro
And it was, I don't know, it felt like so relevant and, and on point with like what we all do. And so anyway, yeah, the hypocrisy is real. Maybe hypocrisy is not a good word because it's also a derogatory or like insult derogatory word. But like the, the my inability or my lack of desire to commit to definitively saying what is right or wrong, how an artist should release or not release, how a platform should entertain or not entertain is is more.
00;41;34;27 - 00;41;54;18
Snowfro
You know, I have to remind myself regularly not to fall into the trap because it is going to change and it's going to continue to evolve. And I'm excited, and I want to make sure that I'm at the forefront of the evolution and at the forefront of that change and not getting stuck in a comfort zone. And it is very comfortable when you can just show art on a wall.
00;41;54;25 - 00;42;18;19
Snowfro
It is very comfortable, it's very native, it's natural. It's like it's it's literally how people have consumed art for the last however many years. It's comforting, probably for a new generation of people to experience that art. It's very comfortable. And I love that when I embrace the shit out of that. But I want to make sure that I don't ever fall into a situation where I am cozy and comfortable enough to where I'm not looking to push things further.
00;42;18;19 - 00;42;32;16
Snowfro
And I believe that you're in the same boat with with what you're doing and glitch. And, you know, I think you guys are, you know, and free and fish in the same boat and how y'all examine this ecosystem and think about the future. And that's really how we're going to push things forward and also pushing things forward.
00;42;32;16 - 00;42;42;05
Snowfro
That's what's going to make us get out of bed and be excited about what we're doing. We're we're we're figuring stuff out and tinkering and tinkering is like, you know, my favorite thing to do in the world. And I'm pretty sure you guys are in that same boat, too.
00;42;42;12 - 00;43;11;18
Aaron
I think for me, I mean, the physical presentation is super important, but the part that gets me the most excited about, you know, digital art and also the stuff going on in crypto is just the scale. Yeah. And so, you know, I know that all those moments are absolutely amazing, but I have found the moments where people were hopping into, like, early metaverses like sharing that space and displaying it in completely native ways, like equally exciting.
00;43;11;18 - 00;43;24;17
Aaron
And I think there's going to be a time where, you know, millions upon millions of people are enjoying some piece of digital media together on the internet. And that is when I think we'll see kind of this ecosystem at scale.
00;43;24;17 - 00;43;44;14
Snowfro
So the the new mints channel, like, can we, can we just understand what it would look like. Not for 300 like internet nerds to be sitting in a discord channel called New Mints, like watching humans go by and cheering each other on for getting different colored or rare ones. But understand what that looks like at a global scale, because that is going to be a beautiful thing.
00;43;44;16 - 00;43;46;19
Snowfro
Like that is going to be a really special moment.
00;43;46;23 - 00;44;06;04
Aaron
Where I think humans like to collect stuff. You know, I'm going to wear the D&D court hat for a moment, but like my son is well, we've been collecting sports cards together like over the past year. But if you look at kind of that collecting activity, it is happening online, like at scale, like people are like opening up packs and like, yeah, geeked out all this stuff.
00;44;06;06 - 00;44;14;01
Aaron
And I think there's a ton of demand for that or that, you know, I'm going to butcher the name of that collectible, that little stuff. What's that stuff in.
00;44;14;04 - 00;44;15;13
Snowfro
The middle of the room?
00;44;15;13 - 00;44;27;24
Aaron
Yeah, I'm the same kind of the same things in the living room. Yeah. Like that. And like that corner of the internet, too. And I do think that those two trends are going to combine at some point.
00;44;27;27 - 00;44;32;08
Snowfro
Did you all ever have part of the Top Shot? I can't reveal part of Top Shot. I.
00;44;32;11 - 00;44;43;10
Aaron
I like top shot from like, afar. You know, I know they like they, they started mostly with like basketball parts of more of like a baseball game. Those great into basketball over the past couple couple of years.
00;44;43;10 - 00;45;05;01
Snowfro
But what was interesting is they were doing like I had no idea what a rip apart grip was. There had a name for it where they would have like, everybody would buy a pack and then they would like pass on the pack or open the pack, and we would do this on discord channels with like sharing screens. And people would be cheering people on like, this is, this is before, you know, we had the new MIT channel on our block.
00;45;05;01 - 00;45;21;13
Snowfro
So like to your point, people have been doing this for a long time. Like they would get together and open a pack together, but you can't sit around and open a pack together with the entire world, except for maybe on YouTube. Like you're saying, people are just sharing it, but it's it's it's unit directional. This ecosystem allows for bi directional, experiences like that.
00;45;21;13 - 00;45;40;01
Snowfro
And so what does that look like in the future with and with? That probably means too, is that there needs to be an overabundance of these digital artifacts. Because if we do want millions of people, because you're talking about the scale and like, yeah, if we really want to scale this up and what does it look like for there to be 25 million rainbow lines?
00;45;40;07 - 00;45;56;15
Snowfro
Because that's what it would take for 25 million people, or maybe, let's say, 2 million people, to be able to have that communal experience of ripping open that cultural artifact and then like living with it over time. And we haven't experienced that yet because, hey, we have this like resistance to dilution, which I think is fair and understandable.
00;45;56;15 - 00;46;10;22
Snowfro
Obviously, like there's different, you know, we're also trying to call these things, you know, assets of stores of value. But like it is going to be a requirement for us to have an insane amount of abundance in order to give everybody the opportunity to have that experience.
00;46;10;24 - 00;46;33;19
Aaron
Yeah. Like, how can we be insanely abundant without being cringe? Like, I think that's one of the central problems here around entertainment NFTs is any time, you know, these digital objects of scale to a certain point, like there's a cringe factor that comes into play, right? We talked about pump earlier. Web3 gaming certainly hasn't hit Gary. He's done some interesting things.
00;46;33;19 - 00;46;56;23
Aaron
But like our community really hasn't accepted that. Right. That's more of like Gary exposing his world to the form factors. You know, you look at I mean, fanatic says as we build the Javits Center, right. That was probably did dwarf NFT NYC or are they on equal footing now? Definitely dwarfed it. It wasn't I mean, parts of it were like commercialized, but, you know, people were having fun.
00;46;56;23 - 00;47;23;26
Aaron
It was like a very positive, upbeat place. And it was wild. You know, people came in from all over the country. You know, they were like showing their collections. You know, people were more trading a lot of excitement. They were livestreaming actually, you know, v friends was there as they should be. Yeah. And you know, who also was kind of like a it wasn't just like one category, it was collectors of baseball, basketball, football, wrestling.
00;47;23;26 - 00;47;44;11
Aaron
Pokemon was like it was all kind of mixed up together in different ways. So it kind of felt more like a collector fest. And I do feel like there are some lessons in how that ecosystem. Yeah, yeah, that probably should be like kicked around in the, in the NFT ecosystem to think about, like, how can we take that to kind of the next level above and for a scarcity.
00;47;44;14 - 00;48;06;25
Aaron
Yeah. And I think that, you know, there I mean, you know, collecting sports cards is probably been a big thing. But since the 50s, 60s and 70s and it just keeps on chugging along. I mean, and there's some eye watering pricing around some of those items, but it's also, you know, lots of the same things, which I think people enjoyed in the NFT space from like opening and having their shared experiences.
00;48;06;29 - 00;48;17;25
Aaron
Snow, like we remember in the early days, like rarely obsession which which some people kind of get you done to like comprehensive collecting. It's all kind of there.
00;48;17;27 - 00;48;28;09
Chris
Do you think part of like like the difference in boxes between collectible and art and like us trying to figure out what all this is, this is kind of.
00;48;28;12 - 00;48;48;20
Aaron
What so us. Yeah. So I've always taken the position I mean, Eric mentioned before, like I just think this is a new category, right? Yeah. I just think that you're trying to fit, you know, digital like NFTs into the art bucket. It's just not going to fit neatly. It's kind of like in finance, like trying to put Bitcoin into like a trad fi bucket.
00;48;48;28 - 00;48;52;10
Aaron
Yeah, it just doesn't work. Like fully. It's just something, you know, I.
00;48;52;10 - 00;49;15;23
Snowfro
Mean, I don't want to own a digital piece of art that's not an NFT. So it can be the finest of the finest art. I don't want to own a digitally native piece of art that's not an NFT, so I think it fits from that perspective. But like in terms of what the future can bring, like the same square peg, round hole or sorry, putting things into a box on the display, to your point, is the same conversation about like whether it's art or whether it's collectible.
00;49;15;23 - 00;49;36;06
Snowfro
It's again, it's like trying to fit things into a specific box and I think people are comfortable making a declared decision so that they can interact with it in a way that gives them comfort. Whereas I think the beauty of this is, like all of the discomfort in in a good way, getting people out of their comfort zone to, experience things in a, in a completely new way.
00;49;36;06 - 00;49;50;00
Snowfro
And I, I yeah, I mean, there's so many people that are like, well, if it's collectible, it's not art, and there's a lot of people that are like, well, if you're trying to make it for an art, it can't be collectible. And I just, I disagree. I think that trying to assign a title to it at this point is, is just so ridiculous.
00;49;50;00 - 00;50;08;25
Snowfro
Like, it doesn't it just it's whatever you think it is. I think, you know, a 1988 BMW m3 is a fucking work of art, like it's a car and people collect them and spend good money on it. But from an esthetic perspective, to me, it's like one of the most beautiful. It gives me the same vibes is when I look at a really good piece of art, like trying to fit that.
00;50;08;29 - 00;50;42;19
Snowfro
I think I kind of struggle with that. And, you know, Chris, I want to touch on you mentioned credits based on edition size. Isn't that relative to participation, though? And so like, you know, when things are kind of getting crazy in 2021, we our blocks discord grew from 20 people to 40,000 people. And yes, there might have been some indicators to say, okay, well, it's not going to grow to 120,000 people, but there's definitely a drinking of the Kool-Aid mania where it's like, well, how do you know when it's not going to go from 40 to 120, when it has escalated so quickly in such a short amount of time?
00;50;42;22 - 00;51;09;05
Snowfro
And so that cringe factor of potentially like you're being too big of an addition to be that cringe factor, is that weird, awkward moment when you realize that there's less demand, and then then the potential supply and the internet brings attention to that in a way that baseball cards never could, because you only know the like your store, that your neighborhood store ran out of that box of baseball cards that you have no idea that that even in the early 2000, how many boxes of the baseball cards that were or how much traction.
00;51;09;05 - 00;51;33;25
Snowfro
So there was no moment there was no opportunity for be that cringe moment of like, oh my God, there's too many baseball cards, or there's too many of a specific, even the rare baseball cards we didn't know or the rare comic cards we didn't know how many of them were going to be rare. The amount of data that we get in real time to like all of them, you know, it's a double edged sword, like all the beautiful things about the permissionless ecosystem are also the bad things, because you can tell when something loses momentum and that loss of momentum.
00;51;34;00 - 00;51;52;15
Snowfro
I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want to actually hear from you. But like, to me, what's bridge is the lack is a is a is the loss of momentum. And you start realizing that this is about to go over a cliff. And that's what makes it cringe. And I think it's based on incorrectly assumptions of how many people are going to want something or how badly somebody is going to want something.
00;51;52;18 - 00;51;59;29
Aaron
All right. Like mapping out the different properties and dimensions of cringe could be like, entire podcast series.
00;51;59;29 - 00;52;06;19
Snowfro
And I'm sure someday let's do it. Someday, man. I'll be I'll be over there all afternoon. So maybe you and I can just kind of know.
00;52;06;20 - 00;52;29;11
Aaron
No one leaves here until we have a nine part series on on the dimensions of cringe. There there's so many different ways you can look at it, like, get back to the art versus collectible thing, right? There's I think some of that really like people are looking to force things towards the direction of art for the sake of both prestige and speculation.
00;52;29;14 - 00;52;51;10
Aaron
Right. Like collectibles. Yes. Can have possessed both those qualities, but it's far easier to attain them if you manage to stick a thing in a box called art, and one in that box called art. It is a bit of a defense. It's a bit of an armor justification for like you devoting your time, your effort, like, you know, you giving yourself into a relationship with this piece.
00;52;51;13 - 00;53;13;18
Aaron
Whereas if you can't jam it in that box called art, and then you have this secondary box that called collectible and collectible has these dimensions as it has these communities, and it has like properties as well that, you know, you can use to buff yourself up. But then there's like a third box, I think no one even talks about like product entertainment, like everyday media.
00;53;13;24 - 00;53;56;12
Aaron
And why is that? Because, oh, I can't really assign qualities of prestige or speculation or like, you know, the these things that are so much better when you label this as art don't exist at the level of entertainment or product. And because I think we're all implicitly aware of of those things, right, that if everything doesn't ascribe towards or doesn't reach, these properties called art or collectibles that go up in value, right then, that ability to become fringe or like the fringe factor expands all around it because, you know, you can flop and you can say, well, I was trying for a thing, right?
00;53;56;14 - 00;54;12;16
Aaron
But if you, you know, if you got a warehouse with a million little booboos in them and no one gives a shit about it, right, or if your, I don't know if there's so cute. Chris. Well, right. That's why I know I'm full up on them. Yeah, they'll be cringe in like a couple of years. Right now they're the shit.
00;54;12;18 - 00;54;33;09
Aaron
But you know, like you look at some of the stuff that went on on like IMX or like some of these other chains out there where, you know, they were very clearly going for entertainment. They didn't get there. There's millions of them floating around with no sort of value. A little off the rails. I'm not sure where I'm going with this point, other than like that chasm, right.
00;54;33;09 - 00;54;54;19
Aaron
To get into that abundance mindset so that you could have a fanatic fest or fan fest or whatever, like, so you could feel job. That's right. You have to cross that, that, that, divide between like, oh, these things have the qualities that protect us from being cringe to, oh, these things are abundant. That came at and like the internet and total knowledge.
00;54;54;25 - 00;55;21;12
Aaron
Right. You're talking about that, you know, baseball card. I'm like, you don't have an awareness, of certain things because you didn't exist in, like, the data filled network space, right? There was more innocent time. That's the other part of it is all the participants in these digital economies possess, like, I wouldn't say total knowledge, but huge degrees of knowledge that then, you know, kind of kick that rational actor brain in that makes you judge more harshly or makes you be a little more critical.
00;55;21;12 - 00;55;48;28
Aaron
Like in a way, you know, that that puts a barrier towards interacting with or experiencing like basic everyday things, you know, in ways that, like, don't exist in physical space, right? You know, in physical space, you're like, oh, this brand has, the bralette. Like, I don't give a shit at time, probably like, I want to stay out of the rain, you know, if you if you put, like, some high end random umbrella and you issue an NFT, people would be like, that's fucking stupid.
00;55;49;01 - 00;55;53;12
Aaron
You know? So I don't know, whole. I'll leave it there.
00;55;53;14 - 00;56;11;19
Snowfro
You're kind of pointing towards. I mean, we also don't have enough time in our lifetimes to talk about the potential singularity that's coming with AI. But like the singularity that you're describing, I think is really interesting. You have art, you have collectible, and now you have product. And like, those things didn't have I mean, they were I mean, obviously product was important in, in the creation of the original collectibles as well.
00;56;11;19 - 00;56;33;18
Snowfro
But like it's all front and center. You also have like a centuries old dialog between art and craft, like somebody could learn and spend more time refining the craft of making a piece of ceramics like and be the best ceramics maker in the world and not be seen as an artist because it's seen as craft. You've got the idea of the arts as a whole, which includes opera and classical music, and like, we're not even talking about that.
00;56;33;18 - 00;57;00;03
Snowfro
Like, it's like there's so many different branches and divisions as to like what we're calling art is and like what it what category it fits into. And, and all of this is being hyper made. We're all hyper aware of these things now because the internet gives us all of that data and all that feedback, and it's all becoming a singularity of the combination of the collectible artistic, cultural product and nature of these things coming.
00;57;00;03 - 00;57;11;03
Snowfro
I don't know, I'm kind of lost here as well. What I'm saying, I'm just saying, like, there's something happening here that the internet is bringing to our attention that, we I still have not been able to wrap my finger, you know.
00;57;11;05 - 00;57;39;26
Aaron
Around, like, a lot of pride in having mastery of a craft, right? Like, I, I consider myself like myself in pursuit of, like, you know, mastery of, like, a few craft, like writing, for instance. And that's like a fine, everyday thing. But in our world, no one gets to shit because that doesn't have numbers go up. And so part of that is like it creates like we even knowing that certain mastery of certain forms as worthy and valuable and mastery of other forms is like not worth our attention at all.
00;57;39;26 - 00;58;05;08
Aaron
And you know, I think it goes back to that, like speculation this is but like, yes, Potters. Zelman you know, just like any activity out there and there are people who devote their lives to it, but, you know, our space and the forms we choose to inhabit and these, you know, networked objects like it is, it can't if that craft can't make itself on top of it.
00;58;05;08 - 00;58;31;07
Aaron
You know, music NFT is like, forget about it, I think. I mean, that's the when there is a pivot to be to try to define it as like high end digital art. I think you get away from these product and media type categories, and that's why the and I said, oh is is I think, you know, one of their most important works that we've seen because I do think it kind of bridges those lines.
00;58;31;10 - 00;58;47;06
Aaron
It's it's smoothness, its ability to go up and down. It's rainbow goodness is just, I implies the perfect spectrum of properties. Okay. There may be a perfect spectrum, but. Oh, yeah, that's true. I think Eric just, had a drop too. But. Thanks, guys. Yeah.
00;58;47;06 - 00;58;48;07
Chris
Thank you.
00;58;48;10 - 00;58;51;04
Aaron
Live from, like some people are.
00;58;51;06 - 00;58;57;25
Chris
It's net society. Me, Chris, Derek, Eric and Aaron. These opinions are on and on a branch.
00;58;57;27 - 00;58;59;05
Aaron
Where you guys next?
00;58;59;08 - 00;59;18;18
Chris
See you.